Talk:Announcement: New Unofficial History Timeline Page - Revision history

HOST-GSKEBECHET: HOST-GSKEBECHET moved page Talk:New Unofficial History Timeline Page to Talk:Announcement: New Unofficial History Timeline Page: Updating article title per announcement standards.

2023-09-07T14:36:18Z

HOST-GSKEBECHET moved page Talk:New Unofficial History Timeline Page to Talk:Announcement: New Unofficial History Timeline Page: Updating article title per announcement standards.

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Revision as of 09:36, 7 September 2023

INIQUITY: despana

2023-05-17T08:17:25Z

despana

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:17, 17 May 2023
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	:::'''ShadowGuard'''		:::'''ShadowGuard'''

	:::The timing descriptions of the advance to ShadowGuard and its duration are also pretty deeply inconsistent between "[[History of Elanthia#III. A. The Undead War\|History of Elanthia]]" and the Vaalor [[Ilynov Journal\|journal]] [[The Battle of ShadowGuard, A soldier's journal (An eyewitness account)\|documents]] which have that one battle lasting months using Vaalorian calendar dates, while its present northern position on the [[Elanith]] map makes it seem like there is no reason the undead army should have even bothered stopping in that location. If ShadowGuard were instead further south between [https://gswiki.play.net/File:Sylvan_map_sm.jpg Nevishrim] and Ta'Nalfein, it would be more consistent with [[History of the Sylvan Elves#Chapter Seven - Despana War and Chaos, ca. -15,400 to -15,180\|History of the Sylvan Elves]], and would be the Undead blocking in that relatively narrow pass around the mountains while they wreaked havoc in the "outlying provinces" west of the DragonSpine. In that position ShadowGuard's purpose could then be defined as a guardian ~~position~~ on the edge of the Elven Empire's core territory for dark stuff coming out of the southern wastelands, and you could have an extended period of stagnation in the forests around ShadowGuard before Dharthiir suddenly shifts gears and tries to surge northeast into the Elven Empire itself. ~~In that case if it does not contradict anything, I would make Harradahn (since the Undead kept advancing after ShadowGuard) the position currently labeled as ShadowGuard on the [[Elanith]] map,~~ and move ShadowGuard down near the gap between the mountains and ocean and treat that as being to the west of Nalfein holdings. The Sylvan history also has the Battle of Harradahn in -15,195 ''seven'' years before Maelshyve ~~in -15,188~~ and ~~later~~ ~~than~~ ~~ShadowGuard,~~ ~~while~~ ~~the~~ ~~Vaalor~~ ~~journals~~ ~~and "~~[[~~Wyvern]]" use the equivalent~~ of ~~-15,186~~ ~~for~~ ~~ShadowGuard,~~ ~~with the Battle of Maelshyve within ''one'' year in -15,185. Other documents have the Undead War lasting for plural "~~years" ~~after~~ ~~Shadow~~ ~~Guard~~, ~~including~~ ~~"[[History~~ of ~~Elanthia]]",~~ ~~"[[History~~ of ~~the~~ ~~Truefolk]]",~~ ~~and~~ ~~"[[History~~ ~~of the Sylvan Elves]]"~~.		:::The timing descriptions of the advance to ShadowGuard and its duration are also pretty deeply inconsistent between "[[History of Elanthia#III. A. The Undead War\|History of Elanthia]]" and the Vaalor [[Ilynov Journal\|journal]] [[The Battle of ShadowGuard, A soldier's journal (An eyewitness account)\|documents]] which have that one battle lasting months using Vaalorian calendar dates, while its present northern position on the [[Elanith]] map makes it seem like there is no reason the undead army should have even bothered stopping in that location. If ShadowGuard were instead further south between [https://gswiki.play.net/File:Sylvan_map_sm.jpg Nevishrim] and Ta'Nalfein, it would be more consistent with [[History of the Sylvan Elves#Chapter Seven - Despana War and Chaos, ca. -15,400 to -15,180\|History of the Sylvan Elves]], and would be the Undead blocking in that relatively narrow pass around the mountains while they wreaked havoc in the "outlying provinces" west of the DragonSpine. In that position ShadowGuard's purpose could then be defined as a guardian on the edge of the Elven Empire's core territory for stopping dark stuff (with its "thaumaturge units") coming out of the southern wastelands (e.g. undead, demons, cultists, dark magic criminals), and you could have an extended period of stagnation in the forests around ShadowGuard before Dharthiir suddenly shifts gears and tries to surge northeast into the Elven Empire itself. Despana and Maelshyve and her undead had been present for a [[Timeline of Elanthian History\|few thousand]] years at that point, so it was a very sudden escalation contrary to her precedent.

			:::In that case if it does not contradict anything, I would make Harradahn (since the Undead kept advancing after ShadowGuard) the position currently labeled as ShadowGuard on the [[Elanith]] map, and move ShadowGuard down near the gap between the mountains and ocean and treat that as being to the west of Nalfein holdings. The Sylvan history also has the Battle of Harradahn in -15,195 ''seven'' years before Maelshyve in -15,188 and later than ShadowGuard, while the Vaalor journals and "[[Wyvern]]" use the equivalent of -15,186 for ShadowGuard, with the Battle of Maelshyve within ''one'' year in -15,185. Other documents have the Undead War lasting for plural "years" after Shadow Guard, including "[[History of Elanthia]]", "[[History of the Truefolk]]", and "[[History of the Sylvan Elves]]". Duration and time gap inconsistencies are more serious than specific date inconsistencies.

	:::I would suggest -15,196 as the real year for ShadowGuard falling, -15,195 for Harradahn, and Maelshyve at -15,185 or -15,188, and blame it on differences between calendar systems in how they corrected or didn't correct the 365th day of the solar year. Even Julian versus Gregorian would make year large errors on these time scales. It is very difficult to reconstruct ancient chronologies from intercalculating between calendar systems, such as lunar calendars and regnal year calendars and founding year calendars where different authors disagree on the mythical founding year being used as the basis, and cross-referencing across less reliable calendars can explain much larger date range disagreements. Then other inconsistencies would be unreliable narration or differences of emphasis, like Dharthiir recruiting allies as early at [[Timeline of Elanthian History#The Age of Chaos -5000 to -20,000\|-15,497]] and maybe low level provinces conflict reaching back to roughly [[History of the Sylvan Elves#Chapter Six - Nevishrim, ca. -22,460 to -15,490\|-15,490]], or that could be the result of an especially large calendar system discrepancy. For example, a 360 day calendar system would create a 291 year discrepancy over 20,000 years, if it were not adjusted for by an incautious chronicler. -15,490 in that hypothetical 360 day calendar would be -15,199 Modern Era assuming that is using 365.2422 days per year as we do now on Earth. Then -15,196 Modern Era for ShadowGuard falling would make much more sense, with a fairly brief preceding period of outlying provinces falling (and recruiting humans from the West in the process.) Likewise, a flat 365 day calendar creates a 13 year error over 20,000 years.		:::I would suggest -15,196 as the real year for ShadowGuard falling, -15,195 for Harradahn, and Maelshyve at -15,185 or -15,188, and blame it on differences between calendar systems in how they corrected or didn't correct the 365th day of the solar year. Even Julian versus Gregorian would make year large errors on these time scales. It is very difficult to reconstruct ancient chronologies from intercalculating between calendar systems, such as lunar calendars and regnal year calendars and founding year calendars where different authors disagree on the mythical founding year being used as the basis, and cross-referencing across less reliable calendars can explain much larger date range disagreements. Then other inconsistencies would be unreliable narration or differences of emphasis, like Dharthiir recruiting allies as early at [[Timeline of Elanthian History#The Age of Chaos -5000 to -20,000\|-15,497]] and maybe low level provinces conflict reaching back to roughly [[History of the Sylvan Elves#Chapter Six - Nevishrim, ca. -22,460 to -15,490\|-15,490]], or that could be the result of an especially large calendar system discrepancy. For example, a 360 day calendar system would create a 291 year discrepancy over 20,000 years, if it were not adjusted for by an incautious chronicler. -15,490 in that hypothetical 360 day calendar would be -15,199 Modern Era assuming that is using 365.2422 days per year as we do now on Earth. Then -15,196 Modern Era for ShadowGuard falling would make much more sense, with a fairly brief preceding period of outlying provinces falling (and recruiting humans from the West in the process.) Likewise, a flat 365 day calendar creates a 13 year error over 20,000 years.

			:::'''Despana and Undeath'''

			:::There is a very old unfortunate misreading of "[[History of Elanthia]]" that interprets the line ''"Using this ancient work, Despana created the first of the Undead."'' to mean Despana created the first undead to ever exist. That is a self-contradiction on face value, since the premise is she found a necromancy book written by someone else. "Undead" is a proper noun in that document, referring to her horde army. That interpretation of the first undead (by mortals) is in "[[History of Luukos]]" and tacitly in the early parts of "[[The Battle of ShadowGuard, A soldier's journal (An eyewitness account)]]". It is contradicted outright in "[[History of the Dhe'nar]]", the Wolves Den implementation of the Aramur Forean hook in "History of Elanthia", "[[History of Fash'lo'nae]]" dating the struggle with the Vishmiir to the Elven Empire period, and is incoherent for many reasons given the many ways undead come into existence in the world setting. (For example, "[[History of the Faendryl]]" puts veil piercing and demon summoning earlier than -40,000 Modern Era, and demons have always been defined in GemStone as causes of undeath. They are the ultimate source of undeath in DragonRealms. The Ur-Daemon are tacitly implied to be related to undeath in "History of Elanthia", with the speculated origins of the Book of Tormtor, and we've seen their undying body parts are profoundly corrupting.) The [[Xorus (prime)/Scholarship/Forbidden Knowledge and the Black Arts: Volume I/Footnotes\|history of necromancy]] I had written was a model for fixing this problem. Despana should be defined as having innovated hierarchical control of undead hordes (especially the rotting corpse varieties) and the use of disease curses and mass transformations of undead allowing big hordes to be rapidly made for the first time. Necromancy of undeath should be a practice dating all the way back into the Age of Darkness with demon worshippers and Marluvian cultists (e.g. vruul), and there should be a bunch of kinds of undead (e.g. corrupted spirits, extraplanar undead) that should have always been present dating back to the Ur-Daemon War.

	::[[User:INIQUITY\|INIQUITY]] ([[User talk:INIQUITY\|talk]]) 19:29, 24 April 2023 (CDT)		::[[User:INIQUITY\|INIQUITY]] ([[User talk:INIQUITY\|talk]]) 19:29, 24 April 2023 (CDT)

INIQUITY: calendar system examples for explaining date disagreements

2023-05-17T01:07:34Z

calendar system examples for explaining date disagreements

Show changes

INIQUITY: note about calendars

2023-05-06T21:31:18Z

note about calendars

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:31, 6 May 2023
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	There are a lot of subtle inconsistencies or unexplained cross-relationships between historical documents. This now idle [[Xorus (prime)/Scholarship/Forbidden Knowledge and the Black Arts: Volume I/Footnotes\|Wordsmiths project]] on the history of necromancy was built as my model for reconciling tons of them. This copy of it has a thousand footnotes. [[User:INIQUITY\|INIQUITY]] ([[User talk:INIQUITY\|talk]]) 19:29, 24 April 2023 (CDT)		There are a lot of subtle inconsistencies or unexplained cross-relationships between historical documents. This now idle [[Xorus (prime)/Scholarship/Forbidden Knowledge and the Black Arts: Volume I/Footnotes\|Wordsmiths project]] on the history of necromancy was built as my model for reconciling tons of them. This copy of it has a thousand footnotes. To be clear, I do not think inconsistencies and contradictions between documents are inherently a problem, I am almost allergic to retcons. The problem is lack of IC framing for why they are inconsistent. [[User:INIQUITY\|INIQUITY]] ([[User talk:INIQUITY\|talk]]) 19:29, 24 April 2023 (CDT)

	::'''Undead War'''		::'''Undead War'''
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	::The eight Patriarchs could maybe be handwaved as referring to the entire [[Timeline of Elanthian History#The Age of Chaos -5000 to -20,000\|five thousand year]] period Despana was known to exist, since most (but [[History of the Sylvan Elves#Chapter Seven - Despana War and Chaos, ca. -15,400 to -15,180\|not all]]) documents have the Undead War being short on the scale of a few years. But then there are just two Patriarchs covering almost 15,000 years up to Rythwier Faendryl and the Ashrim War, with Patriarch 35 starting in roughly -15,180 with the Faendryl exile to the ruins of Maelshyve.		::The eight Patriarchs could maybe be handwaved as referring to the entire [[Timeline of Elanthian History#The Age of Chaos -5000 to -20,000\|five thousand year]] period Despana was known to exist, since most (but [[History of the Sylvan Elves#Chapter Seven - Despana War and Chaos, ca. -15,400 to -15,180\|not all]]) documents have the Undead War being short on the scale of a few years. But then there are just two Patriarchs covering almost 15,000 years up to Rythwier Faendryl and the Ashrim War, with Patriarch 35 starting in roughly -15,180 with the Faendryl exile to the ruins of Maelshyve.

	::(The timing descriptions of the advance to ShadowGuard and its duration are also pretty deeply inconsistent between "[[History of Elanthia#III. A. The Undead War\|History of Elanthia]]" and the Vaalor [[Ilynov Journal\|journal]] [[The Battle of ShadowGuard, A soldier's journal (An eyewitness account)\|documents]] which have that one battle lasting months using Vaalorian calendar dates, while its present northern position on the [[Elanith]] map makes it seem like there is no reason the undead army should have even bothered stopping in that location. If ShadowGuard were instead further south between [https://gswiki.play.net/File:Sylvan_map_sm.jpg Nevishrim] and Ta'Nalfein, it would be more consistent with [[History of the Sylvan Elves#Chapter Seven - Despana War and Chaos, ca. -15,400 to -15,180\|History of the Sylvan Elves]], and would be the Undead blocking in that relatively narrow pass around the mountains while they wreaked havoc in the "outlying provinces" west of the DragonSpine. In that position ShadowGuard's purpose could then be defined as a guardian position on the edge of the Elven Empire's core territory for dark stuff coming out of the southern wastelands, and you could have an extended period of stagnation in the forests around ShadowGuard before Dharthiir suddenly shifts gears and tries to surge northeast into the Elven Empire itself. The Sylvan history also has the Battle of Harradahn in -15,195 ''seven'' years before Maelshyve in -15,188 and later than ShadowGuard, while the Vaalor journals and "[[Wyvern]]" use the equivalent of -15,186 for ShadowGuard, with the Battle of Maelshyve within ''one'' year in -15,185. I would suggest -15,196 as the real year for ShadowGuard falling, -15,195 for Harradahn, and Maelshyve at -15,185 or -15,188, and blame it on differences between calendar systems in how they corrected or didn't correct the 365th day of the solar year. Then other inconsistencies would be unreliable narration or differences of emphasis, like Dharthiir recruiting allies as early at [[Timeline of Elanthian History#The Age of Chaos -5000 to -20,000\|-15,497]] and maybe low level provinces conflict reaching back to roughly [[History of the Sylvan Elves#Chapter Six - Nevishrim, ca. -22,460 to -15,490\|-15,490]].)		::(The timing descriptions of the advance to ShadowGuard and its duration are also pretty deeply inconsistent between "[[History of Elanthia#III. A. The Undead War\|History of Elanthia]]" and the Vaalor [[Ilynov Journal\|journal]] [[The Battle of ShadowGuard, A soldier's journal (An eyewitness account)\|documents]] which have that one battle lasting months using Vaalorian calendar dates, while its present northern position on the [[Elanith]] map makes it seem like there is no reason the undead army should have even bothered stopping in that location. If ShadowGuard were instead further south between [https://gswiki.play.net/File:Sylvan_map_sm.jpg Nevishrim] and Ta'Nalfein, it would be more consistent with [[History of the Sylvan Elves#Chapter Seven - Despana War and Chaos, ca. -15,400 to -15,180\|History of the Sylvan Elves]], and would be the Undead blocking in that relatively narrow pass around the mountains while they wreaked havoc in the "outlying provinces" west of the DragonSpine. In that position ShadowGuard's purpose could then be defined as a guardian position on the edge of the Elven Empire's core territory for dark stuff coming out of the southern wastelands, and you could have an extended period of stagnation in the forests around ShadowGuard before Dharthiir suddenly shifts gears and tries to surge northeast into the Elven Empire itself. The Sylvan history also has the Battle of Harradahn in -15,195 ''seven'' years before Maelshyve in -15,188 and later than ShadowGuard, while the Vaalor journals and "[[Wyvern]]" use the equivalent of -15,186 for ShadowGuard, with the Battle of Maelshyve within ''one'' year in -15,185. Other documents have the Undead War lasting for plural "years" after Shadow Guard, including "[[History of Elanthia]]", "[[History of the Truefolk]]", and "[[History of the Sylvan Elves]]". I would suggest -15,196 as the real year for ShadowGuard falling, -15,195 for Harradahn, and Maelshyve at -15,185 or -15,188, and blame it on differences between calendar systems in how they corrected or didn't correct the 365th day of the solar year. Even Julian versus Gregorian would make errors that large on these time scales. It is very difficult to reconstruct ancient chronologies from intercalculating between calendar systems, such as lunar calendars and regnal year calendars and founding year calendars where different authors disagree on the mythical founding year being used as the basis, and cross-referencing across less reliable calendars can explain much larger date range disagreements. Then other inconsistencies would be unreliable narration or differences of emphasis, like Dharthiir recruiting allies as early at [[Timeline of Elanthian History#The Age of Chaos -5000 to -20,000\|-15,497]] and maybe low level provinces conflict reaching back to roughly [[History of the Sylvan Elves#Chapter Six - Nevishrim, ca. -22,460 to -15,490\|-15,490]], or that could be a calendar system discrepancy.)

	::The entire underground period for the Faendryl has almost no definition. The [http://www.beaconhall.net/tsoran/forums/history-forum.html original intent] was for much of (New) Ta'Faendryl to be an underground city, and then "built on a hill overlooking Rhoska-Tor" with [https://web.archive.org/web/19990907215459/http://www.mtsweb.com/eweek/volume2/Varevice.asp regional sinister and eldritch ruins/relics], and then [[History of the Faendryl#New Ta'Faendryl\|later]] documentation had NTF as a [[The Theory of Governance and Social Order#New Ta'Faendryl\|brand new]] surface city built after moving out of Rhoska-Tor to a nearby spot only after the Ashrim War. Except there had to have been other surface constructions prior to that point, such as the port where they launched their war ships and maybe Chesylcha's wedding party. (Which I think should be defined to be Gellig so that Gellig is something major enough to explain why the Faendryl reacted so much more severely to the Turamzzyrian Empire [[History of the Turamzzyrian Empire\|invading]] it in the [[Incomplete History of River's Rest#The River's Rest Irregulars of the Third Elven War\|Third Elven War]]. Tedronne, Creyth, and Harald's Keep would then be oriented west to east on the Faendryl northern borderlands, with Barrett's Gorge and Brantur to the west and Gellig on the east coast, and those three fortresses meant to cut off potential intervention from the Elven Nations and possibly to eventually pincer New Ta'Faendryl. Then there is a road from Gellig toward New Ta'Faendryl with the army going around the wastes and the Breaking happening southwest of Gellig and Harald's Keep, with northwest fleeing and Tedronne more in the direction of Brantur and the Wizardwaste, and Creyth more in the direction of Barrett's Gorge.) I think the sensible thing to do here is for there to be an old underground city and for what's now called New Ta'Faendryl to connect down into it, and this surface facade and its five boroughs were centrally planned for organizing the whole society governance structure from the top down. I also think the [[The Theory of Governance and Social Order\|"Patriarchal Palace"]] should be a center city within NTF where the Enchiridion Valentia is kept underground, akin to [https://www.nationsonline.org/maps/Vatican-City-map_1200px.jpg Vatican City], so that the Basilica is architecturally a basilica like it is in OTF and the Palace in the sense of royal residence is its own towering building. Analogous to St. Peter's Basilica versus the Apostolic Palace. This would reconcile some tensions between Faendryl documents about the roles of the Basilica and the Clerisy and the Patriarchal residence and the Enchiridion archives. (e.g. Are the "Basilican Sorcerers" actually the Clerisy? Clerisy positions in the Rachis? Did Second Era Faendryl summoning, such as it actually existed in state sanctioned form, all happen secretly within and under the Basilica itself in OTF in a strictly controlled and scheduled way?)		::The entire underground period for the Faendryl has almost no definition. The [http://www.beaconhall.net/tsoran/forums/history-forum.html original intent] was for much of (New) Ta'Faendryl to be an underground city, and then "built on a hill overlooking Rhoska-Tor" with [https://web.archive.org/web/19990907215459/http://www.mtsweb.com/eweek/volume2/Varevice.asp regional sinister and eldritch ruins/relics], and then [[History of the Faendryl#New Ta'Faendryl\|later]] documentation had NTF as a [[The Theory of Governance and Social Order#New Ta'Faendryl\|brand new]] surface city built after moving out of Rhoska-Tor to a nearby spot only after the Ashrim War. Except there had to have been other surface constructions prior to that point, such as the port where they launched their war ships and maybe Chesylcha's wedding party. (Which I think should be defined to be Gellig so that Gellig is something major enough to explain why the Faendryl reacted so much more severely to the Turamzzyrian Empire [[History of the Turamzzyrian Empire\|invading]] it in the [[Incomplete History of River's Rest#The River's Rest Irregulars of the Third Elven War\|Third Elven War]]. Tedronne, Creyth, and Harald's Keep would then be oriented west to east on the Faendryl northern borderlands, with Barrett's Gorge and Brantur to the west and Gellig on the east coast, and those three fortresses meant to cut off potential intervention from the Elven Nations and possibly to eventually pincer New Ta'Faendryl. Then there is a road from Gellig toward New Ta'Faendryl with the army going around the wastes and the Breaking happening southwest of Gellig and Harald's Keep, with northwest fleeing and Tedronne more in the direction of Brantur and the Wizardwaste, and Creyth more in the direction of Barrett's Gorge.) I think the sensible thing to do here is for there to be an old underground city and for what's now called New Ta'Faendryl to connect down into it, and this surface facade and its five boroughs were centrally planned for organizing the whole society governance structure from the top down. I also think the [[The Theory of Governance and Social Order\|"Patriarchal Palace"]] should be a center city within NTF where the Enchiridion Valentia is kept underground, akin to [https://www.nationsonline.org/maps/Vatican-City-map_1200px.jpg Vatican City], so that the Basilica is architecturally a basilica like it is in OTF and the Palace in the sense of royal residence is its own towering building. Analogous to St. Peter's Basilica versus the Apostolic Palace. This would reconcile some tensions between Faendryl documents about the roles of the Basilica and the Clerisy and the Patriarchal residence and the Enchiridion archives. (e.g. Are the "Basilican Sorcerers" actually the Clerisy? Clerisy positions in the Rachis? Did Second Era Faendryl summoning, such as it actually existed in state sanctioned form, all happen secretly within and under the Basilica itself in OTF in a strictly controlled and scheduled way?)

	::So, either Unsenis and Cestimir should be pushed back to something like Patriarchs 27/28 and those eight unnamed monarchs can be between Cestimir and Rythwier, or a premise can be framed that state sanctioned history by the Faendryl is somewhat revisionist / propaganda in nature and the Faendryl basically redacted that 15,000 year underground period and renumbered the Patriarchs after the Ashrim War to make the underground period sound relatively brief (allowing only one then living memory predecessor for Rythwier.) Rythwier is officially Patriarch 37, for example, but might "in reality" be something like the 53rd Patriarch. I would add an NPC note by an Illistim scholar to the top of "History of the Faendryl" saying the Faendryl have revised their Patriarch numbers to omit things, and generally exaggerate and distort historical precedent or continuity for their current practices with dark magic. That would also take pressure off "[[History of the Faendryl#The Growth of Faendryl Magic\|History of the Faendryl]]" and "[[Introduction to the Enchiridion Valentia and Summoning]]" making it sound like demonic summoning was widespread and public in the capital of the Elven Empire for roughly 20,000 years leading up to the Battle of Maelshyve, while "[[Path to Palestra]]" has the Palestra academies not being founded until after the Ashrim War (and the lesser academies founded under the current Patriarch.)		::So, either Unsenis and Cestimir should be pushed back to something like Patriarchs 27/28 and those eight unnamed monarchs can be between Cestimir and Rythwier, or a premise can be framed that state sanctioned history by the Faendryl is somewhat revisionist / propaganda in nature and the Faendryl basically redacted that 15,000 year underground period and renumbered the Patriarchs after the Ashrim War to make the underground period sound relatively brief (allowing only one then-living memory predecessor for Rythwier.) Rythwier is officially Patriarch 37, for example, but might "in reality" be something like the 53rd Patriarch. I would add an NPC note by an Illistim scholar to the top of "History of the Faendryl" saying the Faendryl have revised their Patriarch numbers to omit things, and generally exaggerate and distort historical precedent or continuity for their current practices with dark magic. That would also take pressure off "[[History of the Faendryl#The Growth of Faendryl Magic\|History of the Faendryl]]" and "[[Introduction to the Enchiridion Valentia and Summoning]]" making it sound like demonic summoning was widespread and public in the capital of the Elven Empire for roughly 20,000 years leading up to the Battle of Maelshyve, while "[[Path to Palestra]]" has the Palestra academies not being founded until after the Ashrim War (and the lesser academies founded under the current Patriarch.)

	::[[User:INIQUITY\|INIQUITY]] ([[User talk:INIQUITY\|talk]]) 19:29, 24 April 2023 (CDT)		::[[User:INIQUITY\|INIQUITY]] ([[User talk:INIQUITY\|talk]]) 19:29, 24 April 2023 (CDT)
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	::The complication then enters from "[[Lines of Blood: A History of the Gnomes#The Great Schism\|Lines of Blood: A History of the Gnomes]]" from roughly 2003 (real world), which dates the burghal gnomes moving into the "Kannalan Empire" a little after the year -135, but it does not say which calendar system it is using. Then "[[Timeline of Elanthian History]]" takes this and makes that "Circa -125" Modern Era. The gnome history is then talking about human cities, and Tamzyrr and "Selanthia" in year +725. Which as a Modern Era date would be 3500 years before the time of Selantha Anodheles. If it is instead +725 Kannalan, that is +3,470 Modern Era. This is still dubious, but significantly less dubious. Tamzyrr was already established as a "town" predating +3,961 Modern Era in "[[History of the Turamzzyrian Empire]]", but which has it "grow[ing] tremendously" after the trade alliance of +4,222 Modern Era. The gnome history talks about Tamzyrr as a town in "-125" and refers to "Selanthia" outside Tamzyrr in "+725". Perhaps "Selanthia" could be defined as Tamzyrr's surrounding territory going back some ways before the Turamzzyrian Empire but still only being "town" sized during the Kannalan Empire period. Selantha would have to be named after the territory rather than the other way around, or else the Gnome history could be taken as sort of anachronistically referring to what the region was named in later centuries.		::The complication then enters from "[[Lines of Blood: A History of the Gnomes#The Great Schism\|Lines of Blood: A History of the Gnomes]]" from roughly 2003 (real world), which dates the burghal gnomes moving into the "Kannalan Empire" a little after the year -135, but it does not say which calendar system it is using. Then "[[Timeline of Elanthian History]]" takes this and makes that "Circa -125" Modern Era. The gnome history is then talking about human cities, and Tamzyrr and "Selanthia" in year +725. Which as a Modern Era date would be 3500 years before the time of Selantha Anodheles. If it is instead +725 Kannalan, that is +3,470 Modern Era. This is still dubious, but significantly less dubious. Tamzyrr was already established as a "town" predating +3,961 Modern Era in "[[History of the Turamzzyrian Empire]]", but which has it "grow[ing] tremendously" after the trade alliance of +4,222 Modern Era. The gnome history talks about Tamzyrr as a town in "-125" and refers to "Selanthia" outside Tamzyrr in "+725". Perhaps "Selanthia" could be defined as Tamzyrr's surrounding territory going back some ways before the Turamzzyrian Empire but still only being "town" sized during the Kannalan Empire period. Selantha would have to be named after the territory rather than the other way around, or else the Gnome history could be taken as sort of anachronistically referring to what the region was named in later centuries.

	::Leaving it as it is now would mean the Kannalan Empire existed for at least several thousand years. That is much longer than the Turamzzyrian Empire, much too long for a weak empire with very little lore defining it. Another more subtle point is that it [[Lines of Blood: A History of the Gnomes#The Great Schism\|says]] ''" Sjandor Withycombe led the Burghal Gnomes into the cities and towns of the Kannalan Empire"'', but then turns around and has Sjandor [[Lines of Blood: A History of the Gnomes#Bloodline Withycombe\|leading]] the burghal gnomes to Tamzyrr, which ~~was~~ ~~already~~ ~~established~~ in "[[History of the Turamzzyrian Empire]]" as ~~not~~ having been part of the Kannalan Empire. Which makes the burghal gnomes in the Kannalan Empire in -125 under Sjandor a misattribution ~~or mythical~~ in the first place. But we cannot just treat it as mythical distortions of what really happened, because the timing was then ~~reified~~ by other documents, "[[Timeline of Elanthian History]]" and [[Ta'Illistim Monarchs]] (converted into the Illistim calendar.)		::Leaving it as it is now would mean the Kannalan Empire existed for at least several thousand years. That is much longer than the Turamzzyrian Empire, much too long for a weak empire with very little lore defining it. Another more subtle point is that it [[Lines of Blood: A History of the Gnomes#The Great Schism\|says]] ''" Sjandor Withycombe led the Burghal Gnomes into the cities and towns of the Kannalan Empire"'', but then turns around and has Sjandor [[Lines of Blood: A History of the Gnomes#Bloodline Withycombe\|leading]] the burghal gnomes to Tamzyrr, which along with the other human cities in the southwest were already [[History of the Turamzzyrian Empire\|established]] as having ''not'' been part of the Kannalan Empire. Which makes the burghal gnomes in the Kannalan Empire in -125 under Sjandor a misattribution in the first place. But we cannot just treat it as mythical distortions of what really happened, because the timing was then reused by other documents, "[[Timeline of Elanthian History]]" and [[Ta'Illistim Monarchs]] (converted into the Illistim calendar.)

	::I would suggest defining the Kannalan Empire as being founded in +2,745 Modern Era with a coronation of the Emperor of Veng, year 0 on the Kannalan calendar, which is a defined title in "[[Incomplete History of River's Rest]]". I do not know if the capital city of Veng has a defined location on the backend somewhere. For various reasons I think it would make most sense to have been somewhere in Hendor, whether or not "Hendor" was a name that only existed later, with the Kingdom of Hendor as its eventual successor state. Then the cities and so forth that formed the Kannalan Empire (or its neighbors in the case of Tamzyrr which was one of the "independent towns" that took in Kannalan refugees in "[[History of the Turamzzyrian Empire]]") would be what the gnome documentation is referencing. "[[Timeline of Elanthian History]]" (which has numerous contradictory dates) could then be tweaked to having the gnomes showing up Circa +2,620 Modern Era and then put parentheses saying "-125 Kannalan". Which recontextualizes the Gnome history document as using Kannalan dates instead of Modern Era dates. The alternative would be to have precursor alliances between cities pre-dating the formal Kannalan Empire (which could begin in +2,745), since human fortifications begin eight thousand years ago circa -3,000 Modern Era, and then the gnome history is just loosely referring to that earlier period (and Tamzyrr) as "Kannalan Empire" in an anachronistic way. Still more tortured would be to have the Kannalan Empire as a continuous entity founded in some deeply negative year on the Kannalan calendar. But I think the cleanest way to handle this is to just have the Gnome history be mostly referring to Kannalan calendar dates, and define year 0 on that calendar system as the Kannalan Empire founding.		::I would suggest defining the Kannalan Empire as being founded in +2,745 Modern Era with a coronation of the Emperor of Veng, year 0 on the Kannalan calendar, which is a defined title in "[[Incomplete History of River's Rest]]". I do not know if the capital city of Veng has a defined location on the backend somewhere. For various reasons I think it would make most sense to have been somewhere in Hendor, whether or not "Hendor" was a name that only existed later, with the Kingdom of Hendor as its eventual successor state. Then the cities and so forth that formed the Kannalan Empire (or its neighbors in the case of Tamzyrr which was one of the "independent towns" that took in Kannalan refugees in "[[History of the Turamzzyrian Empire]]") would be what the gnome documentation is referencing. "[[Timeline of Elanthian History]]" (which has numerous contradictory dates) could then be tweaked to having the gnomes showing up Circa +2,620 Modern Era and then put parentheses saying "-125 Kannalan". Which recontextualizes the Gnome history document as using Kannalan dates instead of Modern Era dates. The alternative would be to have precursor alliances between cities pre-dating the formal Kannalan Empire (which could begin in +2,745), since human fortifications begin eight thousand years ago circa -3,000 Modern Era, and then the gnome history is just loosely referring to that earlier period (and Tamzyrr) as "Kannalan Empire" in an anachronistic way. Still more tortured would be to have the Kannalan Empire as a continuous entity founded in some deeply negative year on the Kannalan calendar. But I think the cleanest way to handle this is to just have the Gnome history be mostly referring to Kannalan calendar dates, and define year 0 on that calendar system as the Kannalan Empire founding.

INIQUITY: note tamzyrr inconsistency

2023-05-06T10:04:29Z

note tamzyrr inconsistency

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:04, 6 May 2023
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	::'''Kannalan Empire'''		::'''Kannalan Empire'''

	::The Kannalan Empire has some dubious chronology due to the Gnomes documentation. These do not really need to be retconned in a hard way, recontextualizing the dates would be sufficient in most cases. Though a few of them do unavoidably need hard retcons from contradictions. The term "Kannalan Empire" was almost certainly De-I.C.E.'d from "Lankan Empire" (which was a totally different thing in nature) in the ~~Order~~ of ~~Voln~~ messaging for the ~~Path~~ of ~~Enlightenment~~. This messaging used the year "1,300", which would have originally referred to the timeline of the archaic world setting. The meaning of this was implicitly retconned by "[[History of the Turamzzyrian Empire]]" in 2000 (real world), where the year +1,300 on the Kannalan calendar is equivalent to +4,045 Modern Era. This calendar system conversion for that date was explicitly ~~recognized~~ about a decade later in "[[History of the Order of Voln#Section II: The Founding\|History of the Order of Voln]]". No explanation has ever been given, as far as I am aware, for why +2,745 Modern Era is year zero on the Kannalan calendar. But there is also no explanation for year 0 on the Modern Era calendar system.		::The Kannalan Empire has some dubious chronology due to the Gnomes documentation. These do not really need to be retconned in a hard way, recontextualizing the dates would be sufficient in most cases. Though a few of them do unavoidably need hard retcons from contradictions. The term "Kannalan Empire" was almost certainly De-I.C.E.'d from "Lankan Empire" (which was a totally different thing in nature) in the Path of Enlightenment messaging for the Order of Voln. This messaging has always used the year "1,300", which would have originally referred to the timeline of the archaic world setting. The meaning of this was implicitly retconned by "[[History of the Turamzzyrian Empire]]" in 2000 (real world), where the year +1,300 on the Kannalan calendar is equivalent to +4,045 Modern Era. This calendar system conversion for that date was explicitly canonized about a decade later in "[[History of the Order of Voln#Section II: The Founding\|History of the Order of Voln]]". No explanation has ever been given, as far as I am aware, for why +2,745 Modern Era is year zero on the Kannalan calendar. But there is also no explanation for year 0 on the Modern Era calendar system.

	::(This could be any number of things, such as a new 365th day correction calendar system, perhaps a convention adopted by the Library of Biblia and the relatively early Chronomages. The [[Ta'Illistim Monarchs]] document refers to it as the "Common calendar", and it is at least used in the Turamzzyrian Empire. But then the choice for year 0 makes even less sense in terms of established premises if it is a Turamzzyrian convention, and the present day form of the "Common" language would not have existed yet. Though I would prefer it if Biblia itself was older than that, keeping the Bandur / Graveyard story in its original 6,300 years ago timing, which would recontextualize it as the late Age of Chaos. Because Bandur resided for a time at the Library of Biblia, and as an NPC he is still canon. There is a book by him in Moonsedge. Human fortifications beginning 8,000 years ago in "[[Timeline of Elanthian History]]".)		::(This could be any number of things, such as a new 365th day correction calendar system, perhaps a convention adopted by the Library of Biblia and the relatively early Chronomages. The [[Ta'Illistim Monarchs]] document refers to it as the "Common calendar", and it is at least used in the Turamzzyrian Empire. But then the choice for year 0 makes even less sense in terms of established premises if it is a Turamzzyrian convention, and the present day form of the "Common" language would not have existed yet. Though I would prefer it if Biblia itself was older than that, keeping the Bandur / Graveyard story in its original 6,300 years ago timing, which would recontextualize it as the late Age of Chaos. Because Bandur resided for a time at the Library of Biblia, and as an NPC he is still canon. There is a book by him in Moonsedge. Human fortifications beginning 8,000 years ago in "[[Timeline of Elanthian History]]".)

	::The complication then enters from "[[Lines of Blood: A History of the Gnomes#The Great Schism\|Lines of Blood: A History of the Gnomes]]" from roughly 2003 (real world), which dates the burghal gnomes moving into the "Kannalan Empire" a little after the year -135, but it does not say which calendar system it is using. Then "[[Timeline of Elanthian History]]" takes this and makes that "Circa -125" Modern Era. The gnome history is then talking about human cities, and Tamzyrr and "Selanthia" in year +725. Which as a Modern Era date would be 3500 years before the time of Selantha Anodheles. If it is instead +725 Kannalan, that is +3,470 Modern Era. This is still dubious, but significantly less dubious. Tamzyrr was already established as a "town" predating +3,961 Modern Era in "[[History of the Turamzzyrian Empire]]", but which has it "grow[ing] tremendously" after the trade alliance of +4,222 Modern Era. The gnome history talks about Tamzyrr as a town in "-125" and refers to "Selanthia" outside Tamzyrr in "+725". Perhaps "Selanthia" could be defined as Tamzyrr's surrounding territory going back some ways before the Turamzzyrian Empire but still only being "town" sized during the Kannalan Empire period. Selantha would have to be named after the territory rather than the other way around, or else the Gnome history could be taken as sort of anachronistically referring to what the region was named in later centuries. Leaving it as it is now would mean the Kannalan Empire existed for at least several thousand years. That is much longer than the Turamzzyrian Empire, much too long for a weak empire with very little lore defining it.		::The complication then enters from "[[Lines of Blood: A History of the Gnomes#The Great Schism\|Lines of Blood: A History of the Gnomes]]" from roughly 2003 (real world), which dates the burghal gnomes moving into the "Kannalan Empire" a little after the year -135, but it does not say which calendar system it is using. Then "[[Timeline of Elanthian History]]" takes this and makes that "Circa -125" Modern Era. The gnome history is then talking about human cities, and Tamzyrr and "Selanthia" in year +725. Which as a Modern Era date would be 3500 years before the time of Selantha Anodheles. If it is instead +725 Kannalan, that is +3,470 Modern Era. This is still dubious, but significantly less dubious. Tamzyrr was already established as a "town" predating +3,961 Modern Era in "[[History of the Turamzzyrian Empire]]", but which has it "grow[ing] tremendously" after the trade alliance of +4,222 Modern Era. The gnome history talks about Tamzyrr as a town in "-125" and refers to "Selanthia" outside Tamzyrr in "+725". Perhaps "Selanthia" could be defined as Tamzyrr's surrounding territory going back some ways before the Turamzzyrian Empire but still only being "town" sized during the Kannalan Empire period. Selantha would have to be named after the territory rather than the other way around, or else the Gnome history could be taken as sort of anachronistically referring to what the region was named in later centuries.

			::Leaving it as it is now would mean the Kannalan Empire existed for at least several thousand years. That is much longer than the Turamzzyrian Empire, much too long for a weak empire with very little lore defining it. Another more subtle point is that it [[Lines of Blood: A History of the Gnomes#The Great Schism\|says]] ''" Sjandor Withycombe led the Burghal Gnomes into the cities and towns of the Kannalan Empire"'', but then turns around and has Sjandor [[Lines of Blood: A History of the Gnomes#Bloodline Withycombe\|leading]] the burghal gnomes to Tamzyrr, which was already established in "[[History of the Turamzzyrian Empire]]" as not having been part of the Kannalan Empire. Which makes the burghal gnomes in the Kannalan Empire in -125 under Sjandor a misattribution or mythical in the first place. But we cannot just treat it as mythical distortions of what really happened, because the timing was then reified by other documents, "[[Timeline of Elanthian History]]" and [[Ta'Illistim Monarchs]] (converted into the Illistim calendar.)
⚫	::I would suggest defining the Kannalan Empire as being founded in +2,745 Modern Era with a coronation of the Emperor of Veng, year 0 on the Kannalan calendar, which is a defined title in "[[Incomplete History of River's Rest]]". I do not know if the capital city of Veng has a defined location on the backend somewhere. For various reasons I think it would make most sense to have been somewhere in Hendor, whether or not "Hendor" was a name that only existed later, with the Kingdom of Hendor as its eventual successor state. Then the cities and so forth that formed the Kannalan Empire (or its neighbors in the case of Tamzyrr which was one of the "independent towns" that took in Kannalan refugees in "[[History of the Turamzzyrian Empire]]") would be what the gnome documentation is referencing. "[[Timeline of Elanthian History]]" (which has numerous contradictory dates) could then be tweaked to having the gnomes showing up Circa +2,620 Modern Era and then put parentheses saying "-125 Kannalan". Which recontextualizes the Gnome history document as using Kannalan dates instead of Modern Era dates. The alternative would be to have precursor alliances between cities pre-dating the formal Kannalan Empire (which could begin in +2,745), since human fortifications begin eight thousand years ago circa -3,000 Modern Era, and then the gnome history is just loosely referring to that earlier period as "Kannalan Empire" in an anachronistic way. Still ~~messier~~ would be to have the Kannalan Empire ~~being~~ founded in some deeply negative year on the Kannalan calendar. But I think the cleanest way to handle this is to just have the Gnome history be mostly referring to Kannalan calendar dates, and define year 0 on that calendar system as the Kannalan Empire founding.

		⚫	::I would suggest defining the Kannalan Empire as being founded in +2,745 Modern Era with a coronation of the Emperor of Veng, year 0 on the Kannalan calendar, which is a defined title in "[[Incomplete History of River's Rest]]". I do not know if the capital city of Veng has a defined location on the backend somewhere. For various reasons I think it would make most sense to have been somewhere in Hendor, whether or not "Hendor" was a name that only existed later, with the Kingdom of Hendor as its eventual successor state. Then the cities and so forth that formed the Kannalan Empire (or its neighbors in the case of Tamzyrr which was one of the "independent towns" that took in Kannalan refugees in "[[History of the Turamzzyrian Empire]]") would be what the gnome documentation is referencing. "[[Timeline of Elanthian History]]" (which has numerous contradictory dates) could then be tweaked to having the gnomes showing up Circa +2,620 Modern Era and then put parentheses saying "-125 Kannalan". Which recontextualizes the Gnome history document as using Kannalan dates instead of Modern Era dates. The alternative would be to have precursor alliances between cities pre-dating the formal Kannalan Empire (which could begin in +2,745), since human fortifications begin eight thousand years ago circa -3,000 Modern Era, and then the gnome history is just loosely referring to that earlier period (and Tamzyrr) as "Kannalan Empire" in an anachronistic way. Still more tortured would be to have the Kannalan Empire as a continuous entity founded in some deeply negative year on the Kannalan calendar. But I think the cleanest way to handle this is to just have the Gnome history be mostly referring to Kannalan calendar dates, and define year 0 on that calendar system as the Kannalan Empire founding.

	::That being said, that clearly isn't the original intent in the Gnomes document, because it uses the dates +2,389 in the Greengair section and +4,120 in the Nylem section (and the 4120 one is also used in the "Timeline of Elanthian History"), which would have to be tweaked to say "Modern Era" but the other dates tweaked to be saying "Kannalan". It also speaks of Elven rangers having the "first extended contact" with a gnome in -4,500. This is copied over as a Modern Era date in "Timeline of Elanthian History". However, [[Ta'Illistim Monarchs]] has "contact was first officially made" sometime between 43,019 and 43,232 Illistim (-6,088 and -5,875 Modern Era) during the reign of the Mirror Alaein Illistim. Treating the -4,500 as a Kannalan date (which would be -1,755 Modern Era) actually makes that contradiction worse. The cases of Circa -4,500 (Modern Era) could be hard retconned to Circa -6,000 Modern Era, to be consistent with the Illistim monarchs documentation since a hard retcon is unavoidable in this case, and then that Illistim documentation is just using more precise dates. Or Alaein could be pushed forward around 2,000 years. (All of this also requires pushing Ardtin forward by 2,000 years, because she is the one who let the Winedotter gnomes live in Ta'Illistim. As it stands Ardtin is well over 4,000 years old but had a [[Nualina Greyvael\|daughter]] as a recent Handmaiden.)		::That being said, that clearly isn't the original intent in the Gnomes document, because it uses the dates +2,389 in the Greengair section and +4,120 in the Nylem section (and the 4120 one is also used in the "Timeline of Elanthian History"), which would have to be tweaked to say "Modern Era" but the other dates tweaked to be saying "Kannalan". It also speaks of Elven rangers having the "first extended contact" with a gnome in -4,500. This is copied over as a Modern Era date in "Timeline of Elanthian History". However, [[Ta'Illistim Monarchs]] has "contact was first officially made" sometime between 43,019 and 43,232 Illistim (-6,088 and -5,875 Modern Era) during the reign of the Mirror Alaein Illistim. Treating the -4,500 as a Kannalan date (which would be -1,755 Modern Era) actually makes that contradiction worse. The cases of Circa -4,500 (Modern Era) could be hard retconned to Circa -6,000 Modern Era, to be consistent with the Illistim monarchs documentation since a hard retcon is unavoidable in this case, and then that Illistim documentation is just using more precise dates. Or Alaein could be pushed forward around 2,000 years. (All of this also requires pushing Ardtin forward by 2,000 years, because she is the one who let the Winedotter gnomes live in Ta'Illistim. As it stands Ardtin is well over 4,000 years old but had a [[Nualina Greyvael\|daughter]] as a recent Handmaiden.)

INIQUITY: kannalan time span

2023-05-05T23:15:30Z

kannalan time span

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:15, 5 May 2023
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	::(This could be any number of things, such as a new 365th day correction calendar system, perhaps a convention adopted by the Library of Biblia and the relatively early Chronomages. The [[Ta'Illistim Monarchs]] document refers to it as the "Common calendar", and it is at least used in the Turamzzyrian Empire. But then the choice for year 0 makes even less sense in terms of established premises if it is a Turamzzyrian convention, and the present day form of the "Common" language would not have existed yet. Though I would prefer it if Biblia itself was older than that, keeping the Bandur / Graveyard story in its original 6,300 years ago timing, which would recontextualize it as the late Age of Chaos. Because Bandur resided for a time at the Library of Biblia, and as an NPC he is still canon. There is a book by him in Moonsedge. Human fortifications beginning 8,000 years ago in "[[Timeline of Elanthian History]]".)		::(This could be any number of things, such as a new 365th day correction calendar system, perhaps a convention adopted by the Library of Biblia and the relatively early Chronomages. The [[Ta'Illistim Monarchs]] document refers to it as the "Common calendar", and it is at least used in the Turamzzyrian Empire. But then the choice for year 0 makes even less sense in terms of established premises if it is a Turamzzyrian convention, and the present day form of the "Common" language would not have existed yet. Though I would prefer it if Biblia itself was older than that, keeping the Bandur / Graveyard story in its original 6,300 years ago timing, which would recontextualize it as the late Age of Chaos. Because Bandur resided for a time at the Library of Biblia, and as an NPC he is still canon. There is a book by him in Moonsedge. Human fortifications beginning 8,000 years ago in "[[Timeline of Elanthian History]]".)

	::The complication then enters from "[[Lines of Blood: A History of the Gnomes#The Great Schism\|Lines of Blood: A History of the Gnomes]]" from roughly 2003 (real world), which dates the burghal gnomes moving into the "Kannalan Empire" a little after the year -135, but it does not say which calendar system it is using. Then "[[Timeline of Elanthian History]]" takes this and makes that "Circa -125" Modern Era. The gnome history is then talking about human cities, and Tamzyrr and "Selanthia" in year +725. Which as a Modern Era date would be 3500 years before the time of Selantha Anodheles. If it is instead +725 Kannalan, that is +3,470 Modern Era. This is still dubious, but significantly less dubious. Tamzyrr was already established as a "town" predating +3,961 Modern Era in "[[History of the Turamzzyrian Empire]]", but which has it "grow[ing] tremendously" after the trade alliance of +4,222 Modern Era. The gnome history talks about Tamzyrr as a town in "-125" and refers to "Selanthia" outside Tamzyrr in "+725". Perhaps "Selanthia" could be defined as Tamzyrr's surrounding territory going back some ways before the Turamzzyrian Empire but still only being "town" sized during the Kannalan Empire period. Selantha would have to be named after the territory rather than the other way around, or else the Gnome history could be taken as sort of anachronistically referring to what the region was named in later centuries.		::The complication then enters from "[[Lines of Blood: A History of the Gnomes#The Great Schism\|Lines of Blood: A History of the Gnomes]]" from roughly 2003 (real world), which dates the burghal gnomes moving into the "Kannalan Empire" a little after the year -135, but it does not say which calendar system it is using. Then "[[Timeline of Elanthian History]]" takes this and makes that "Circa -125" Modern Era. The gnome history is then talking about human cities, and Tamzyrr and "Selanthia" in year +725. Which as a Modern Era date would be 3500 years before the time of Selantha Anodheles. If it is instead +725 Kannalan, that is +3,470 Modern Era. This is still dubious, but significantly less dubious. Tamzyrr was already established as a "town" predating +3,961 Modern Era in "[[History of the Turamzzyrian Empire]]", but which has it "grow[ing] tremendously" after the trade alliance of +4,222 Modern Era. The gnome history talks about Tamzyrr as a town in "-125" and refers to "Selanthia" outside Tamzyrr in "+725". Perhaps "Selanthia" could be defined as Tamzyrr's surrounding territory going back some ways before the Turamzzyrian Empire but still only being "town" sized during the Kannalan Empire period. Selantha would have to be named after the territory rather than the other way around, or else the Gnome history could be taken as sort of anachronistically referring to what the region was named in later centuries. Leaving it as it is now would mean the Kannalan Empire existed for at least several thousand years. That is much longer than the Turamzzyrian Empire, much too long for a weak empire with very little lore defining it.

	::I would suggest defining the Kannalan Empire as being founded in +2,745 Modern Era with a coronation of the Emperor of Veng, year 0 on the Kannalan calendar, which is a defined title in "[[Incomplete History of River's Rest]]". I do not know if the capital city of Veng has a defined location on the backend somewhere. For various reasons I think it would make most sense to have been somewhere in Hendor, whether or not "Hendor" was a name that only existed later, with the Kingdom of Hendor as its eventual successor state. Then the cities and so forth that formed the Kannalan Empire (or its neighbors in the case of Tamzyrr which was one of the "independent towns" that took in Kannalan refugees in "[[History of the Turamzzyrian Empire]]") would be what the gnome documentation is referencing. "[[Timeline of Elanthian History]]" (which has numerous contradictory dates) could then be tweaked to having the gnomes showing up Circa +2,620 Modern Era and then put parentheses saying "-125 Kannalan". Which recontextualizes the Gnome history document as using Kannalan dates instead of Modern Era dates. The alternative would be to have precursor alliances between cities pre-dating the formal Kannalan Empire (which could begin in +2,745), since human fortifications begin eight thousand years ago circa -3,000 Modern Era, and then the gnome history is just loosely referring to that earlier period as "Kannalan Empire" in an anachronistic way. Still messier would be to have the Kannalan Empire being founded in some deeply negative year on the Kannalan calendar. But I think the cleanest way to handle this is to just have the Gnome history be mostly referring to Kannalan calendar dates, and define year 0 on that calendar system as the Kannalan Empire founding.		::I would suggest defining the Kannalan Empire as being founded in +2,745 Modern Era with a coronation of the Emperor of Veng, year 0 on the Kannalan calendar, which is a defined title in "[[Incomplete History of River's Rest]]". I do not know if the capital city of Veng has a defined location on the backend somewhere. For various reasons I think it would make most sense to have been somewhere in Hendor, whether or not "Hendor" was a name that only existed later, with the Kingdom of Hendor as its eventual successor state. Then the cities and so forth that formed the Kannalan Empire (or its neighbors in the case of Tamzyrr which was one of the "independent towns" that took in Kannalan refugees in "[[History of the Turamzzyrian Empire]]") would be what the gnome documentation is referencing. "[[Timeline of Elanthian History]]" (which has numerous contradictory dates) could then be tweaked to having the gnomes showing up Circa +2,620 Modern Era and then put parentheses saying "-125 Kannalan". Which recontextualizes the Gnome history document as using Kannalan dates instead of Modern Era dates. The alternative would be to have precursor alliances between cities pre-dating the formal Kannalan Empire (which could begin in +2,745), since human fortifications begin eight thousand years ago circa -3,000 Modern Era, and then the gnome history is just loosely referring to that earlier period as "Kannalan Empire" in an anachronistic way. Still messier would be to have the Kannalan Empire being founded in some deeply negative year on the Kannalan calendar. But I think the cleanest way to handle this is to just have the Gnome history be mostly referring to Kannalan calendar dates, and define year 0 on that calendar system as the Kannalan Empire founding.

INIQUITY at 22:35, 5 May 2023

2023-05-05T22:35:57Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:35, 5 May 2023
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	::'''Kannalan Empire'''		::'''Kannalan Empire'''

	::The Kannalan Empire has some dubious chronology due to the Gnomes documentation. These do not really need to be retconned in a hard way, recontextualizing the dates would be sufficient in most cases. The term "Kannalan Empire" was almost certainly De-I.C.E.'d from "Lankan Empire" (which was a totally different thing in nature) in the Order of Voln messaging for the Path of Enlightenment. This messaging used the year "1,300", which would have originally referred to the timeline of the archaic world setting. The meaning of this was implicitly retconned by "[[History of the Turamzzyrian Empire]]" in 2000 (real world), where the year +1,300 on the Kannalan calendar is equivalent to +4,045 Modern Era. This calendar system conversion for that date was explicitly recognized about a decade later in "[[History of the Order of Voln#Section II: The Founding\|History of the Order of Voln]]". No explanation has ever been given, as far as I am aware, for why +2,745 Modern Era is year zero on the Kannalan calendar. But there is also no explanation for year 0 on the Modern Era calendar system. (This could be any number of things, such as a new 365th day correction calendar system, perhaps a convention adopted by the Library of Biblia and the relatively early Chronomages. Though I would prefer it if Biblia itself was older than that, keeping the Bandur / Graveyard story in its original 6,300 years ago timing, which would recontextualize it as the late Age of Chaos. Because Bandur resided for a time at the Library of Biblia, and as an NPC he is still canon. There is a book by him in Moonsedge. Human fortifications beginning 8,000 years ago.)		::The Kannalan Empire has some dubious chronology due to the Gnomes documentation. These do not really need to be retconned in a hard way, recontextualizing the dates would be sufficient in most cases. Though a few of them do unavoidably need hard retcons from contradictions. The term "Kannalan Empire" was almost certainly De-I.C.E.'d from "Lankan Empire" (which was a totally different thing in nature) in the Order of Voln messaging for the Path of Enlightenment. This messaging used the year "1,300", which would have originally referred to the timeline of the archaic world setting. The meaning of this was implicitly retconned by "[[History of the Turamzzyrian Empire]]" in 2000 (real world), where the year +1,300 on the Kannalan calendar is equivalent to +4,045 Modern Era. This calendar system conversion for that date was explicitly recognized about a decade later in "[[History of the Order of Voln#Section II: The Founding\|History of the Order of Voln]]". No explanation has ever been given, as far as I am aware, for why +2,745 Modern Era is year zero on the Kannalan calendar. But there is also no explanation for year 0 on the Modern Era calendar system.

			::(This could be any number of things, such as a new 365th day correction calendar system, perhaps a convention adopted by the Library of Biblia and the relatively early Chronomages. The [[Ta'Illistim Monarchs]] document refers to it as the "Common calendar", and it is at least used in the Turamzzyrian Empire. But then the choice for year 0 makes even less sense in terms of established premises if it is a Turamzzyrian convention, and the present day form of the "Common" language would not have existed yet. Though I would prefer it if Biblia itself was older than that, keeping the Bandur / Graveyard story in its original 6,300 years ago timing, which would recontextualize it as the late Age of Chaos. Because Bandur resided for a time at the Library of Biblia, and as an NPC he is still canon. There is a book by him in Moonsedge. Human fortifications beginning 8,000 years ago in "[[Timeline of Elanthian History]]".)

	::The complication then enters from "[[Lines of Blood: A History of the Gnomes#The Great Schism\|Lines of Blood: A History of the Gnomes]]" from roughly 2003 (real world), which dates the burghal gnomes moving into the "Kannalan Empire" a little after the year -135, but it does not say which calendar system it is using. Then "[[Timeline of Elanthian History]]" takes this and makes that "Circa -125" Modern Era. The gnome history is then talking about human cities, and Tamzyrr and "Selanthia" in year +725. Which as a Modern Era date would be 3500 years before the time of Selantha Anodheles. If it is instead +725 Kannalan, that is +3,470 Modern Era. This is still dubious, but significantly less dubious. Tamzyrr was already established as a "town" predating +3,961 Modern Era in "[[History of the Turamzzyrian Empire]]", but which has it "grow[ing] tremendously" after the trade alliance of +4,222 Modern Era. The gnome history talks about Tamzyrr as a town in "-125" and refers to "Selanthia" outside Tamzyrr in "+725". Perhaps "Selanthia" could be defined as Tamzyrr's surrounding territory going back some ways before the Turamzzyrian Empire but still only being "town" sized during the Kannalan Empire period. Selantha would have to be named after the territory rather than the other way around, or else the Gnome history could be taken as sort of anachronistically referring to what the region was named in later centuries.		::The complication then enters from "[[Lines of Blood: A History of the Gnomes#The Great Schism\|Lines of Blood: A History of the Gnomes]]" from roughly 2003 (real world), which dates the burghal gnomes moving into the "Kannalan Empire" a little after the year -135, but it does not say which calendar system it is using. Then "[[Timeline of Elanthian History]]" takes this and makes that "Circa -125" Modern Era. The gnome history is then talking about human cities, and Tamzyrr and "Selanthia" in year +725. Which as a Modern Era date would be 3500 years before the time of Selantha Anodheles. If it is instead +725 Kannalan, that is +3,470 Modern Era. This is still dubious, but significantly less dubious. Tamzyrr was already established as a "town" predating +3,961 Modern Era in "[[History of the Turamzzyrian Empire]]", but which has it "grow[ing] tremendously" after the trade alliance of +4,222 Modern Era. The gnome history talks about Tamzyrr as a town in "-125" and refers to "Selanthia" outside Tamzyrr in "+725". Perhaps "Selanthia" could be defined as Tamzyrr's surrounding territory going back some ways before the Turamzzyrian Empire but still only being "town" sized during the Kannalan Empire period. Selantha would have to be named after the territory rather than the other way around, or else the Gnome history could be taken as sort of anachronistically referring to what the region was named in later centuries.
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	::I would suggest defining the Kannalan Empire as being founded in +2,745 Modern Era with a coronation of the Emperor of Veng, year 0 on the Kannalan calendar, which is a defined title in "[[Incomplete History of River's Rest]]". I do not know if the capital city of Veng has a defined location on the backend somewhere. For various reasons I think it would make most sense to have been somewhere in Hendor, whether or not "Hendor" was a name that only existed later, with the Kingdom of Hendor as its eventual successor state. Then the cities and so forth that formed the Kannalan Empire (or its neighbors in the case of Tamzyrr which was one of the "independent towns" that took in Kannalan refugees in "[[History of the Turamzzyrian Empire]]") would be what the gnome documentation is referencing. "[[Timeline of Elanthian History]]" (which has numerous contradictory dates) could then be tweaked to having the gnomes showing up Circa +2,620 Modern Era and then put parentheses saying "-125 Kannalan". Which recontextualizes the Gnome history document as using Kannalan dates instead of Modern Era dates. The alternative would be to have precursor alliances between cities pre-dating the formal Kannalan Empire (which could begin in +2,745), since human fortifications begin eight thousand years ago circa -3,000 Modern Era, and then the gnome history is just loosely referring to that earlier period as "Kannalan Empire" in an anachronistic way. Still messier would be to have the Kannalan Empire being founded in some deeply negative year on the Kannalan calendar. But I think the cleanest way to handle this is to just have the Gnome history be mostly referring to Kannalan calendar dates, and define year 0 on that calendar system as the Kannalan Empire founding.		::I would suggest defining the Kannalan Empire as being founded in +2,745 Modern Era with a coronation of the Emperor of Veng, year 0 on the Kannalan calendar, which is a defined title in "[[Incomplete History of River's Rest]]". I do not know if the capital city of Veng has a defined location on the backend somewhere. For various reasons I think it would make most sense to have been somewhere in Hendor, whether or not "Hendor" was a name that only existed later, with the Kingdom of Hendor as its eventual successor state. Then the cities and so forth that formed the Kannalan Empire (or its neighbors in the case of Tamzyrr which was one of the "independent towns" that took in Kannalan refugees in "[[History of the Turamzzyrian Empire]]") would be what the gnome documentation is referencing. "[[Timeline of Elanthian History]]" (which has numerous contradictory dates) could then be tweaked to having the gnomes showing up Circa +2,620 Modern Era and then put parentheses saying "-125 Kannalan". Which recontextualizes the Gnome history document as using Kannalan dates instead of Modern Era dates. The alternative would be to have precursor alliances between cities pre-dating the formal Kannalan Empire (which could begin in +2,745), since human fortifications begin eight thousand years ago circa -3,000 Modern Era, and then the gnome history is just loosely referring to that earlier period as "Kannalan Empire" in an anachronistic way. Still messier would be to have the Kannalan Empire being founded in some deeply negative year on the Kannalan calendar. But I think the cleanest way to handle this is to just have the Gnome history be mostly referring to Kannalan calendar dates, and define year 0 on that calendar system as the Kannalan Empire founding.

	::That being said, that clearly isn't the original intent in the Gnomes document, because it uses the dates +2,389 in the Greengair section and +4,120 in the Nylem section (and the 4120 one is also used in the "Timeline of Elanthian History"), which would have to be tweaked to say "Modern Era" but the other dates tweaked to be saying "Kannalan". It also speaks of Elven rangers having the "first extended contact" with a gnome in -4,500. This is copied over as a Modern Era date in "Timeline of Elanthian History". However, [[Ta'Illistim Monarchs]] has "contact was first officially made" sometime between 43,019 and 43,232 Illistim (-6,088 and -5,875 Modern Era) during the reign of the Mirror Alaein Illistim. Treating the -4,500 as a Kannalan date (which would be -1,755 Modern Era) actually makes that contradiction worse. The cases of Circa -4,500 (Modern Era) could be hard retconned to Circa -6,000 Modern Era, to be consistent with the Illistim monarchs documentation since a hard retcon is unavoidable in this case, and then that Illistim documentation is just using more precise dates. Or Alaein could be pushed forward around 2,000 years. (~~But~~ ~~this~~ ~~would~~ also ~~require~~ pushing Ardtin forward by 2,000 years, because she is the one who let the Winedotter gnomes live in Ta'Illistim. As it stands Ardtin is well over 4,000 years old but had a daughter as a recent Handmaiden.)		::That being said, that clearly isn't the original intent in the Gnomes document, because it uses the dates +2,389 in the Greengair section and +4,120 in the Nylem section (and the 4120 one is also used in the "Timeline of Elanthian History"), which would have to be tweaked to say "Modern Era" but the other dates tweaked to be saying "Kannalan". It also speaks of Elven rangers having the "first extended contact" with a gnome in -4,500. This is copied over as a Modern Era date in "Timeline of Elanthian History". However, [[Ta'Illistim Monarchs]] has "contact was first officially made" sometime between 43,019 and 43,232 Illistim (-6,088 and -5,875 Modern Era) during the reign of the Mirror Alaein Illistim. Treating the -4,500 as a Kannalan date (which would be -1,755 Modern Era) actually makes that contradiction worse. The cases of Circa -4,500 (Modern Era) could be hard retconned to Circa -6,000 Modern Era, to be consistent with the Illistim monarchs documentation since a hard retcon is unavoidable in this case, and then that Illistim documentation is just using more precise dates. Or Alaein could be pushed forward around 2,000 years. (All of this also requires pushing Ardtin forward by 2,000 years, because she is the one who let the Winedotter gnomes live in Ta'Illistim. As it stands Ardtin is well over 4,000 years old but had a [[Nualina Greyvael\|daughter]] as a recent Handmaiden.)

	::[[User:INIQUITY\|INIQUITY]] ([[User talk:INIQUITY\|talk]]) 15:57, 5 May 2023 (CDT)		::[[User:INIQUITY\|INIQUITY]] ([[User talk:INIQUITY\|talk]]) 15:57, 5 May 2023 (CDT)

INIQUITY at 21:10, 5 May 2023

2023-05-05T21:10:35Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:10, 5 May 2023
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	::I would suggest defining the Kannalan Empire as being founded in +2,745 Modern Era with a coronation of the Emperor of Veng, year 0 on the Kannalan calendar, which is a defined title in "[[Incomplete History of River's Rest]]". I do not know if the capital city of Veng has a defined location on the backend somewhere. For various reasons I think it would make most sense to have been somewhere in Hendor, whether or not "Hendor" was a name that only existed later, with the Kingdom of Hendor as its eventual successor state. Then the cities and so forth that formed the Kannalan Empire (or its neighbors in the case of Tamzyrr which was one of the "independent towns" that took in Kannalan refugees in "[[History of the Turamzzyrian Empire]]") would be what the gnome documentation is referencing. "[[Timeline of Elanthian History]]" (which has numerous contradictory dates) could then be tweaked to having the gnomes showing up Circa +2,620 Modern Era and then put parentheses saying "-125 Kannalan". Which recontextualizes the Gnome history document as using Kannalan dates instead of Modern Era dates. The alternative would be to have precursor alliances between cities pre-dating the formal Kannalan Empire (which could begin in +2,745), since human fortifications begin eight thousand years ago circa -3,000 Modern Era, and then the gnome history is just loosely referring to that earlier period as "Kannalan Empire" in an anachronistic way. Still messier would be to have the Kannalan Empire being founded in some deeply negative year on the Kannalan calendar. But I think the cleanest way to handle this is to just have the Gnome history be mostly referring to Kannalan calendar dates, and define year 0 on that calendar system as the Kannalan Empire founding.		::I would suggest defining the Kannalan Empire as being founded in +2,745 Modern Era with a coronation of the Emperor of Veng, year 0 on the Kannalan calendar, which is a defined title in "[[Incomplete History of River's Rest]]". I do not know if the capital city of Veng has a defined location on the backend somewhere. For various reasons I think it would make most sense to have been somewhere in Hendor, whether or not "Hendor" was a name that only existed later, with the Kingdom of Hendor as its eventual successor state. Then the cities and so forth that formed the Kannalan Empire (or its neighbors in the case of Tamzyrr which was one of the "independent towns" that took in Kannalan refugees in "[[History of the Turamzzyrian Empire]]") would be what the gnome documentation is referencing. "[[Timeline of Elanthian History]]" (which has numerous contradictory dates) could then be tweaked to having the gnomes showing up Circa +2,620 Modern Era and then put parentheses saying "-125 Kannalan". Which recontextualizes the Gnome history document as using Kannalan dates instead of Modern Era dates. The alternative would be to have precursor alliances between cities pre-dating the formal Kannalan Empire (which could begin in +2,745), since human fortifications begin eight thousand years ago circa -3,000 Modern Era, and then the gnome history is just loosely referring to that earlier period as "Kannalan Empire" in an anachronistic way. Still messier would be to have the Kannalan Empire being founded in some deeply negative year on the Kannalan calendar. But I think the cleanest way to handle this is to just have the Gnome history be mostly referring to Kannalan calendar dates, and define year 0 on that calendar system as the Kannalan Empire founding.

	::That being said, that clearly isn't the original intent in the Gnomes document, because it uses the dates +2,389 in the Greengair section and +4,120 in the Nylem section (and the 4120 one is also used in the "Timeline of Elanthian History"), which would have to be tweaked to say "Modern Era" but the other dates tweaked to be saying "Kannalan". It also speaks of Elven rangers having the "first extended contact" with a gnome in -4,500. This is copied over as a Modern Era date in "Timeline of Elanthian History". However, [[Ta'Illistim Monarchs]] has "contact was first officially made" sometime between 43,019 and 43,232 Illistim (-6,088 and -5,875 Modern Era) during the reign of the Mirror Alaein Illistim. Treating the -4,500 as a Kannalan date (which would be -1,755 Modern Era) actually makes that contradiction worse. The cases of Circa -4,500 (Modern Era) could be hard retconned to Circa -6,000 Modern Era, to be consistent with the Illistim monarchs documentation since a hard retcon is unavoidable in this case, and then that Illistim documentation is just using more precise dates. Or Alaein could be pushed forward around 2,000 years.		::That being said, that clearly isn't the original intent in the Gnomes document, because it uses the dates +2,389 in the Greengair section and +4,120 in the Nylem section (and the 4120 one is also used in the "Timeline of Elanthian History"), which would have to be tweaked to say "Modern Era" but the other dates tweaked to be saying "Kannalan". It also speaks of Elven rangers having the "first extended contact" with a gnome in -4,500. This is copied over as a Modern Era date in "Timeline of Elanthian History". However, [[Ta'Illistim Monarchs]] has "contact was first officially made" sometime between 43,019 and 43,232 Illistim (-6,088 and -5,875 Modern Era) during the reign of the Mirror Alaein Illistim. Treating the -4,500 as a Kannalan date (which would be -1,755 Modern Era) actually makes that contradiction worse. The cases of Circa -4,500 (Modern Era) could be hard retconned to Circa -6,000 Modern Era, to be consistent with the Illistim monarchs documentation since a hard retcon is unavoidable in this case, and then that Illistim documentation is just using more precise dates. Or Alaein could be pushed forward around 2,000 years. (But this would also require pushing Ardtin forward by 2,000 years, because she is the one who let the Winedotter gnomes live in Ta'Illistim. As it stands Ardtin is well over 4,000 years old but had a daughter as a recent Handmaiden.)

	::[[User:INIQUITY\|INIQUITY]] ([[User talk:INIQUITY\|talk]]) 15:57, 5 May 2023 (CDT)		::[[User:INIQUITY\|INIQUITY]] ([[User talk:INIQUITY\|talk]]) 15:57, 5 May 2023 (CDT)

INIQUITY: kannalan empire chronology

2023-05-05T20:57:34Z

kannalan empire chronology

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:57, 5 May 2023
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	::[[User:INIQUITY\|INIQUITY]] ([[User talk:INIQUITY\|talk]]) 15:13, 27 April 2023 (CDT)		::[[User:INIQUITY\|INIQUITY]] ([[User talk:INIQUITY\|talk]]) 15:13, 27 April 2023 (CDT)


			::'''Kannalan Empire'''

			::The Kannalan Empire has some dubious chronology due to the Gnomes documentation. These do not really need to be retconned in a hard way, recontextualizing the dates would be sufficient in most cases. The term "Kannalan Empire" was almost certainly De-I.C.E.'d from "Lankan Empire" (which was a totally different thing in nature) in the Order of Voln messaging for the Path of Enlightenment. This messaging used the year "1,300", which would have originally referred to the timeline of the archaic world setting. The meaning of this was implicitly retconned by "[[History of the Turamzzyrian Empire]]" in 2000 (real world), where the year +1,300 on the Kannalan calendar is equivalent to +4,045 Modern Era. This calendar system conversion for that date was explicitly recognized about a decade later in "[[History of the Order of Voln#Section II: The Founding\|History of the Order of Voln]]". No explanation has ever been given, as far as I am aware, for why +2,745 Modern Era is year zero on the Kannalan calendar. But there is also no explanation for year 0 on the Modern Era calendar system. (This could be any number of things, such as a new 365th day correction calendar system, perhaps a convention adopted by the Library of Biblia and the relatively early Chronomages. Though I would prefer it if Biblia itself was older than that, keeping the Bandur / Graveyard story in its original 6,300 years ago timing, which would recontextualize it as the late Age of Chaos. Because Bandur resided for a time at the Library of Biblia, and as an NPC he is still canon. There is a book by him in Moonsedge. Human fortifications beginning 8,000 years ago.)

			::The complication then enters from "[[Lines of Blood: A History of the Gnomes#The Great Schism\|Lines of Blood: A History of the Gnomes]]" from roughly 2003 (real world), which dates the burghal gnomes moving into the "Kannalan Empire" a little after the year -135, but it does not say which calendar system it is using. Then "[[Timeline of Elanthian History]]" takes this and makes that "Circa -125" Modern Era. The gnome history is then talking about human cities, and Tamzyrr and "Selanthia" in year +725. Which as a Modern Era date would be 3500 years before the time of Selantha Anodheles. If it is instead +725 Kannalan, that is +3,470 Modern Era. This is still dubious, but significantly less dubious. Tamzyrr was already established as a "town" predating +3,961 Modern Era in "[[History of the Turamzzyrian Empire]]", but which has it "grow[ing] tremendously" after the trade alliance of +4,222 Modern Era. The gnome history talks about Tamzyrr as a town in "-125" and refers to "Selanthia" outside Tamzyrr in "+725". Perhaps "Selanthia" could be defined as Tamzyrr's surrounding territory going back some ways before the Turamzzyrian Empire but still only being "town" sized during the Kannalan Empire period. Selantha would have to be named after the territory rather than the other way around, or else the Gnome history could be taken as sort of anachronistically referring to what the region was named in later centuries.

			::I would suggest defining the Kannalan Empire as being founded in +2,745 Modern Era with a coronation of the Emperor of Veng, year 0 on the Kannalan calendar, which is a defined title in "[[Incomplete History of River's Rest]]". I do not know if the capital city of Veng has a defined location on the backend somewhere. For various reasons I think it would make most sense to have been somewhere in Hendor, whether or not "Hendor" was a name that only existed later, with the Kingdom of Hendor as its eventual successor state. Then the cities and so forth that formed the Kannalan Empire (or its neighbors in the case of Tamzyrr which was one of the "independent towns" that took in Kannalan refugees in "[[History of the Turamzzyrian Empire]]") would be what the gnome documentation is referencing. "[[Timeline of Elanthian History]]" (which has numerous contradictory dates) could then be tweaked to having the gnomes showing up Circa +2,620 Modern Era and then put parentheses saying "-125 Kannalan". Which recontextualizes the Gnome history document as using Kannalan dates instead of Modern Era dates. The alternative would be to have precursor alliances between cities pre-dating the formal Kannalan Empire (which could begin in +2,745), since human fortifications begin eight thousand years ago circa -3,000 Modern Era, and then the gnome history is just loosely referring to that earlier period as "Kannalan Empire" in an anachronistic way. Still messier would be to have the Kannalan Empire being founded in some deeply negative year on the Kannalan calendar. But I think the cleanest way to handle this is to just have the Gnome history be mostly referring to Kannalan calendar dates, and define year 0 on that calendar system as the Kannalan Empire founding.

			::That being said, that clearly isn't the original intent in the Gnomes document, because it uses the dates +2,389 in the Greengair section and +4,120 in the Nylem section (and the 4120 one is also used in the "Timeline of Elanthian History"), which would have to be tweaked to say "Modern Era" but the other dates tweaked to be saying "Kannalan". It also speaks of Elven rangers having the "first extended contact" with a gnome in -4,500. This is copied over as a Modern Era date in "Timeline of Elanthian History". However, [[Ta'Illistim Monarchs]] has "contact was first officially made" sometime between 43,019 and 43,232 Illistim (-6,088 and -5,875 Modern Era) during the reign of the Mirror Alaein Illistim. Treating the -4,500 as a Kannalan date (which would be -1,755 Modern Era) actually makes that contradiction worse. The cases of Circa -4,500 (Modern Era) could be hard retconned to Circa -6,000 Modern Era, to be consistent with the Illistim monarchs documentation since a hard retcon is unavoidable in this case, and then that Illistim documentation is just using more precise dates. Or Alaein could be pushed forward around 2,000 years.

			::[[User:INIQUITY\|INIQUITY]] ([[User talk:INIQUITY\|talk]]) 15:57, 5 May 2023 (CDT)

INIQUITY at 01:53, 28 April 2023

2023-04-28T01:53:34Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:53, 27 April 2023
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	::The eight Patriarchs could maybe be handwaved as referring to the entire [[Timeline of Elanthian History#The Age of Chaos -5000 to -20,000\|five thousand year]] period Despana was known to exist, since most (but [[History of the Sylvan Elves#Chapter Seven - Despana War and Chaos, ca. -15,400 to -15,180\|not all]]) documents have the Undead War being short on the scale of a few years. But then there are just two Patriarchs covering almost 15,000 years up to Rythwier Faendryl and the Ashrim War, with Patriarch 35 starting in roughly -15,180 with the Faendryl exile to the ruins of Maelshyve.		::The eight Patriarchs could maybe be handwaved as referring to the entire [[Timeline of Elanthian History#The Age of Chaos -5000 to -20,000\|five thousand year]] period Despana was known to exist, since most (but [[History of the Sylvan Elves#Chapter Seven - Despana War and Chaos, ca. -15,400 to -15,180\|not all]]) documents have the Undead War being short on the scale of a few years. But then there are just two Patriarchs covering almost 15,000 years up to Rythwier Faendryl and the Ashrim War, with Patriarch 35 starting in roughly -15,180 with the Faendryl exile to the ruins of Maelshyve.

	::(The timing descriptions of the advance to ShadowGuard and its duration are also pretty deeply inconsistent between "[[History of Elanthia#III. A. The Undead War\|History of Elanthia]]" and the Vaalor [[Ilynov Journal\|journal]] [[The Battle of ShadowGuard, A soldier's journal (An eyewitness account)\|documents]] which have that one battle lasting months using Vaalorian calendar dates, while its present northern position on the [[Elanith]] map makes it seem like there is no reason the undead army should have even bothered stopping in that location. If ShadowGuard were instead further south between [https://gswiki.play.net/File:Sylvan_map_sm.jpg Nevishrim] and Ta'Nalfein, it would be more consistent with [[History of the Sylvan Elves#Chapter Seven - Despana War and Chaos, ca. -15,400 to -15,180\|History of the Sylvan Elves]], and would be the Undead blocking in that relatively narrow pass around the mountains while they wreaked havoc in the "outlying provinces" west of the DragonSpine. In that position ShadowGuard's purpose could then be defined as a guardian position on the edge of the Elven Empire's core territory for dark stuff coming out of the southern wastelands, and you could have an extended period of stagnation in the forests around ShadowGuard before Dharthiir suddenly shifts gears and tries to surge northeast into the Elven Empire itself. The Sylvan history also has the Battle of Harradahn in -15,195 ''seven'' years before Maelshyve in -15,188 and later than ShadowGuard, while the Vaalor journals and "[[Wyvern]]" use the equivalent of -15,186 for ShadowGuard, with the Battle of Maelshyve within ''one'' year in -15,185.)		::(The timing descriptions of the advance to ShadowGuard and its duration are also pretty deeply inconsistent between "[[History of Elanthia#III. A. The Undead War\|History of Elanthia]]" and the Vaalor [[Ilynov Journal\|journal]] [[The Battle of ShadowGuard, A soldier's journal (An eyewitness account)\|documents]] which have that one battle lasting months using Vaalorian calendar dates, while its present northern position on the [[Elanith]] map makes it seem like there is no reason the undead army should have even bothered stopping in that location. If ShadowGuard were instead further south between [https://gswiki.play.net/File:Sylvan_map_sm.jpg Nevishrim] and Ta'Nalfein, it would be more consistent with [[History of the Sylvan Elves#Chapter Seven - Despana War and Chaos, ca. -15,400 to -15,180\|History of the Sylvan Elves]], and would be the Undead blocking in that relatively narrow pass around the mountains while they wreaked havoc in the "outlying provinces" west of the DragonSpine. In that position ShadowGuard's purpose could then be defined as a guardian position on the edge of the Elven Empire's core territory for dark stuff coming out of the southern wastelands, and you could have an extended period of stagnation in the forests around ShadowGuard before Dharthiir suddenly shifts gears and tries to surge northeast into the Elven Empire itself. The Sylvan history also has the Battle of Harradahn in -15,195 ''seven'' years before Maelshyve in -15,188 and later than ShadowGuard, while the Vaalor journals and "[[Wyvern]]" use the equivalent of -15,186 for ShadowGuard, with the Battle of Maelshyve within ''one'' year in -15,185. I would suggest -15,196 as the real year for ShadowGuard falling, -15,195 for Harradahn, and Maelshyve at -15,185 or -15,188, and blame it on differences between calendar systems in how they corrected or didn't correct the 365th day of the solar year. Then other inconsistencies would be unreliable narration or differences of emphasis, like Dharthiir recruiting allies as early at [[Timeline of Elanthian History#The Age of Chaos -5000 to -20,000\|-15,497]] and maybe low level provinces conflict reaching back to roughly [[History of the Sylvan Elves#Chapter Six - Nevishrim, ca. -22,460 to -15,490\|-15,490]].)

	::The entire underground period for the Faendryl has almost no definition. The [http://www.beaconhall.net/tsoran/forums/history-forum.html original intent] was for much of (New) Ta'Faendryl to be an underground city, and then "built on a hill overlooking Rhoska-Tor" with [https://web.archive.org/web/19990907215459/http://www.mtsweb.com/eweek/volume2/Varevice.asp regional sinister and eldritch ruins/relics], and then [[History of the Faendryl#New Ta'Faendryl\|later]] documentation had NTF as a [[The Theory of Governance and Social Order#New Ta'Faendryl\|brand new]] surface city built after moving out of Rhoska-Tor to a nearby spot only after the Ashrim War. Except there had to have been other surface constructions prior to that point, such as the port where they launched their war ships and maybe Chesylcha's wedding party. (Which I think should be defined to be Gellig so that Gellig is something major enough to explain why the Faendryl reacted so much more severely to the Turamzzyrian Empire [[History of the Turamzzyrian Empire\|invading]] it in the [[Incomplete History of River's Rest#The River's Rest Irregulars of the Third Elven War\|Third Elven War]]. Tedronne, Creyth, and Harald's Keep would then be oriented west to east on the Faendryl northern borderlands, with Barrett's Gorge and Brantur to the west and Gellig on the east coast, and those three fortresses meant to cut off potential intervention from the Elven Nations and possibly to eventually pincer New Ta'Faendryl. Then there is a road from Gellig toward New Ta'Faendryl with the army going around the wastes and the Breaking happening southwest of Gellig and Harald's Keep, with northwest fleeing and Tedronne more in the direction of Brantur and the Wizardwaste, and Creyth more in the direction of Barrett's Gorge.) I think the sensible thing to do here is for there to be an old underground city and for what's now called New Ta'Faendryl to connect down into it, and this surface facade and its five boroughs were centrally planned for organizing the whole society governance structure from the top down. I also think the [[The Theory of Governance and Social Order\|"Patriarchal Palace"]] should be a center city within NTF where the Enchiridion Valentia is kept underground, akin to [https://www.nationsonline.org/maps/Vatican-City-map_1200px.jpg Vatican City], so that the Basilica is architecturally a basilica like it is in OTF and the Palace in the sense of royal residence is its own towering building. Analogous to St. Peter's Basilica versus the Apostolic Palace. This would reconcile some tensions between Faendryl documents about the roles of the Basilica and the Clerisy and the Patriarchal residence and the Enchiridion archives. (e.g. Are the "Basilican Sorcerers" actually the Clerisy? Clerisy positions in the Rachis? Did Second Era Faendryl summoning, such as it actually existed in state sanctioned form, all happen secretly within and under the Basilica itself in OTF in a strictly controlled and scheduled way?)		::The entire underground period for the Faendryl has almost no definition. The [http://www.beaconhall.net/tsoran/forums/history-forum.html original intent] was for much of (New) Ta'Faendryl to be an underground city, and then "built on a hill overlooking Rhoska-Tor" with [https://web.archive.org/web/19990907215459/http://www.mtsweb.com/eweek/volume2/Varevice.asp regional sinister and eldritch ruins/relics], and then [[History of the Faendryl#New Ta'Faendryl\|later]] documentation had NTF as a [[The Theory of Governance and Social Order#New Ta'Faendryl\|brand new]] surface city built after moving out of Rhoska-Tor to a nearby spot only after the Ashrim War. Except there had to have been other surface constructions prior to that point, such as the port where they launched their war ships and maybe Chesylcha's wedding party. (Which I think should be defined to be Gellig so that Gellig is something major enough to explain why the Faendryl reacted so much more severely to the Turamzzyrian Empire [[History of the Turamzzyrian Empire\|invading]] it in the [[Incomplete History of River's Rest#The River's Rest Irregulars of the Third Elven War\|Third Elven War]]. Tedronne, Creyth, and Harald's Keep would then be oriented west to east on the Faendryl northern borderlands, with Barrett's Gorge and Brantur to the west and Gellig on the east coast, and those three fortresses meant to cut off potential intervention from the Elven Nations and possibly to eventually pincer New Ta'Faendryl. Then there is a road from Gellig toward New Ta'Faendryl with the army going around the wastes and the Breaking happening southwest of Gellig and Harald's Keep, with northwest fleeing and Tedronne more in the direction of Brantur and the Wizardwaste, and Creyth more in the direction of Barrett's Gorge.) I think the sensible thing to do here is for there to be an old underground city and for what's now called New Ta'Faendryl to connect down into it, and this surface facade and its five boroughs were centrally planned for organizing the whole society governance structure from the top down. I also think the [[The Theory of Governance and Social Order\|"Patriarchal Palace"]] should be a center city within NTF where the Enchiridion Valentia is kept underground, akin to [https://www.nationsonline.org/maps/Vatican-City-map_1200px.jpg Vatican City], so that the Basilica is architecturally a basilica like it is in OTF and the Palace in the sense of royal residence is its own towering building. Analogous to St. Peter's Basilica versus the Apostolic Palace. This would reconcile some tensions between Faendryl documents about the roles of the Basilica and the Clerisy and the Patriarchal residence and the Enchiridion archives. (e.g. Are the "Basilican Sorcerers" actually the Clerisy? Clerisy positions in the Rachis? Did Second Era Faendryl summoning, such as it actually existed in state sanctioned form, all happen secretly within and under the Basilica itself in OTF in a strictly controlled and scheduled way?)

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:31, 6 May 2023
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	There are a lot of subtle inconsistencies or unexplained cross-relationships between historical documents. This now idle [[Xorus (prime)/Scholarship/Forbidden Knowledge and the Black Arts: Volume I/Footnotes\|Wordsmiths project]] on the history of necromancy was built as my model for reconciling tons of them. This copy of it has a thousand footnotes. [[User:INIQUITY\|INIQUITY]] ([[User talk:INIQUITY\|talk]]) 19:29, 24 April 2023 (CDT)		There are a lot of subtle inconsistencies or unexplained cross-relationships between historical documents. This now idle [[Xorus (prime)/Scholarship/Forbidden Knowledge and the Black Arts: Volume I/Footnotes\|Wordsmiths project]] on the history of necromancy was built as my model for reconciling tons of them. This copy of it has a thousand footnotes. To be clear, I do not think inconsistencies and contradictions between documents are inherently a problem, I am almost allergic to retcons. The problem is lack of IC framing for why they are inconsistent. [[User:INIQUITY\|INIQUITY]] ([[User talk:INIQUITY\|talk]]) 19:29, 24 April 2023 (CDT)

	::'''Undead War'''		::'''Undead War'''
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	::The eight Patriarchs could maybe be handwaved as referring to the entire [[Timeline of Elanthian History#The Age of Chaos -5000 to -20,000\|five thousand year]] period Despana was known to exist, since most (but [[History of the Sylvan Elves#Chapter Seven - Despana War and Chaos, ca. -15,400 to -15,180\|not all]]) documents have the Undead War being short on the scale of a few years. But then there are just two Patriarchs covering almost 15,000 years up to Rythwier Faendryl and the Ashrim War, with Patriarch 35 starting in roughly -15,180 with the Faendryl exile to the ruins of Maelshyve.		::The eight Patriarchs could maybe be handwaved as referring to the entire [[Timeline of Elanthian History#The Age of Chaos -5000 to -20,000\|five thousand year]] period Despana was known to exist, since most (but [[History of the Sylvan Elves#Chapter Seven - Despana War and Chaos, ca. -15,400 to -15,180\|not all]]) documents have the Undead War being short on the scale of a few years. But then there are just two Patriarchs covering almost 15,000 years up to Rythwier Faendryl and the Ashrim War, with Patriarch 35 starting in roughly -15,180 with the Faendryl exile to the ruins of Maelshyve.

	::(The timing descriptions of the advance to ShadowGuard and its duration are also pretty deeply inconsistent between "[[History of Elanthia#III. A. The Undead War\|History of Elanthia]]" and the Vaalor [[Ilynov Journal\|journal]] [[The Battle of ShadowGuard, A soldier's journal (An eyewitness account)\|documents]] which have that one battle lasting months using Vaalorian calendar dates, while its present northern position on the [[Elanith]] map makes it seem like there is no reason the undead army should have even bothered stopping in that location. If ShadowGuard were instead further south between [https://gswiki.play.net/File:Sylvan_map_sm.jpg Nevishrim] and Ta'Nalfein, it would be more consistent with [[History of the Sylvan Elves#Chapter Seven - Despana War and Chaos, ca. -15,400 to -15,180\|History of the Sylvan Elves]], and would be the Undead blocking in that relatively narrow pass around the mountains while they wreaked havoc in the "outlying provinces" west of the DragonSpine. In that position ShadowGuard's purpose could then be defined as a guardian position on the edge of the Elven Empire's core territory for dark stuff coming out of the southern wastelands, and you could have an extended period of stagnation in the forests around ShadowGuard before Dharthiir suddenly shifts gears and tries to surge northeast into the Elven Empire itself. The Sylvan history also has the Battle of Harradahn in -15,195 ''seven'' years before Maelshyve in -15,188 and later than ShadowGuard, while the Vaalor journals and "[[Wyvern]]" use the equivalent of -15,186 for ShadowGuard, with the Battle of Maelshyve within ''one'' year in -15,185. I would suggest -15,196 as the real year for ShadowGuard falling, -15,195 for Harradahn, and Maelshyve at -15,185 or -15,188, and blame it on differences between calendar systems in how they corrected or didn't correct the 365th day of the solar year. Then other inconsistencies would be unreliable narration or differences of emphasis, like Dharthiir recruiting allies as early at [[Timeline of Elanthian History#The Age of Chaos -5000 to -20,000\|-15,497]] and maybe low level provinces conflict reaching back to roughly [[History of the Sylvan Elves#Chapter Six - Nevishrim, ca. -22,460 to -15,490\|-15,490]].)		::(The timing descriptions of the advance to ShadowGuard and its duration are also pretty deeply inconsistent between "[[History of Elanthia#III. A. The Undead War\|History of Elanthia]]" and the Vaalor [[Ilynov Journal\|journal]] [[The Battle of ShadowGuard, A soldier's journal (An eyewitness account)\|documents]] which have that one battle lasting months using Vaalorian calendar dates, while its present northern position on the [[Elanith]] map makes it seem like there is no reason the undead army should have even bothered stopping in that location. If ShadowGuard were instead further south between [https://gswiki.play.net/File:Sylvan_map_sm.jpg Nevishrim] and Ta'Nalfein, it would be more consistent with [[History of the Sylvan Elves#Chapter Seven - Despana War and Chaos, ca. -15,400 to -15,180\|History of the Sylvan Elves]], and would be the Undead blocking in that relatively narrow pass around the mountains while they wreaked havoc in the "outlying provinces" west of the DragonSpine. In that position ShadowGuard's purpose could then be defined as a guardian position on the edge of the Elven Empire's core territory for dark stuff coming out of the southern wastelands, and you could have an extended period of stagnation in the forests around ShadowGuard before Dharthiir suddenly shifts gears and tries to surge northeast into the Elven Empire itself. The Sylvan history also has the Battle of Harradahn in -15,195 ''seven'' years before Maelshyve in -15,188 and later than ShadowGuard, while the Vaalor journals and "[[Wyvern]]" use the equivalent of -15,186 for ShadowGuard, with the Battle of Maelshyve within ''one'' year in -15,185. Other documents have the Undead War lasting for plural "years" after Shadow Guard, including "[[History of Elanthia]]", "[[History of the Truefolk]]", and "[[History of the Sylvan Elves]]". I would suggest -15,196 as the real year for ShadowGuard falling, -15,195 for Harradahn, and Maelshyve at -15,185 or -15,188, and blame it on differences between calendar systems in how they corrected or didn't correct the 365th day of the solar year. Even Julian versus Gregorian would make errors that large on these time scales. It is very difficult to reconstruct ancient chronologies from intercalculating between calendar systems, such as lunar calendars and regnal year calendars and founding year calendars where different authors disagree on the mythical founding year being used as the basis, and cross-referencing across less reliable calendars can explain much larger date range disagreements. Then other inconsistencies would be unreliable narration or differences of emphasis, like Dharthiir recruiting allies as early at [[Timeline of Elanthian History#The Age of Chaos -5000 to -20,000\|-15,497]] and maybe low level provinces conflict reaching back to roughly [[History of the Sylvan Elves#Chapter Six - Nevishrim, ca. -22,460 to -15,490\|-15,490]], or that could be a calendar system discrepancy.)

	::The entire underground period for the Faendryl has almost no definition. The [http://www.beaconhall.net/tsoran/forums/history-forum.html original intent] was for much of (New) Ta'Faendryl to be an underground city, and then "built on a hill overlooking Rhoska-Tor" with [https://web.archive.org/web/19990907215459/http://www.mtsweb.com/eweek/volume2/Varevice.asp regional sinister and eldritch ruins/relics], and then [[History of the Faendryl#New Ta'Faendryl\|later]] documentation had NTF as a [[The Theory of Governance and Social Order#New Ta'Faendryl\|brand new]] surface city built after moving out of Rhoska-Tor to a nearby spot only after the Ashrim War. Except there had to have been other surface constructions prior to that point, such as the port where they launched their war ships and maybe Chesylcha's wedding party. (Which I think should be defined to be Gellig so that Gellig is something major enough to explain why the Faendryl reacted so much more severely to the Turamzzyrian Empire [[History of the Turamzzyrian Empire\|invading]] it in the [[Incomplete History of River's Rest#The River's Rest Irregulars of the Third Elven War\|Third Elven War]]. Tedronne, Creyth, and Harald's Keep would then be oriented west to east on the Faendryl northern borderlands, with Barrett's Gorge and Brantur to the west and Gellig on the east coast, and those three fortresses meant to cut off potential intervention from the Elven Nations and possibly to eventually pincer New Ta'Faendryl. Then there is a road from Gellig toward New Ta'Faendryl with the army going around the wastes and the Breaking happening southwest of Gellig and Harald's Keep, with northwest fleeing and Tedronne more in the direction of Brantur and the Wizardwaste, and Creyth more in the direction of Barrett's Gorge.) I think the sensible thing to do here is for there to be an old underground city and for what's now called New Ta'Faendryl to connect down into it, and this surface facade and its five boroughs were centrally planned for organizing the whole society governance structure from the top down. I also think the [[The Theory of Governance and Social Order\|"Patriarchal Palace"]] should be a center city within NTF where the Enchiridion Valentia is kept underground, akin to [https://www.nationsonline.org/maps/Vatican-City-map_1200px.jpg Vatican City], so that the Basilica is architecturally a basilica like it is in OTF and the Palace in the sense of royal residence is its own towering building. Analogous to St. Peter's Basilica versus the Apostolic Palace. This would reconcile some tensions between Faendryl documents about the roles of the Basilica and the Clerisy and the Patriarchal residence and the Enchiridion archives. (e.g. Are the "Basilican Sorcerers" actually the Clerisy? Clerisy positions in the Rachis? Did Second Era Faendryl summoning, such as it actually existed in state sanctioned form, all happen secretly within and under the Basilica itself in OTF in a strictly controlled and scheduled way?)		::The entire underground period for the Faendryl has almost no definition. The [http://www.beaconhall.net/tsoran/forums/history-forum.html original intent] was for much of (New) Ta'Faendryl to be an underground city, and then "built on a hill overlooking Rhoska-Tor" with [https://web.archive.org/web/19990907215459/http://www.mtsweb.com/eweek/volume2/Varevice.asp regional sinister and eldritch ruins/relics], and then [[History of the Faendryl#New Ta'Faendryl\|later]] documentation had NTF as a [[The Theory of Governance and Social Order#New Ta'Faendryl\|brand new]] surface city built after moving out of Rhoska-Tor to a nearby spot only after the Ashrim War. Except there had to have been other surface constructions prior to that point, such as the port where they launched their war ships and maybe Chesylcha's wedding party. (Which I think should be defined to be Gellig so that Gellig is something major enough to explain why the Faendryl reacted so much more severely to the Turamzzyrian Empire [[History of the Turamzzyrian Empire\|invading]] it in the [[Incomplete History of River's Rest#The River's Rest Irregulars of the Third Elven War\|Third Elven War]]. Tedronne, Creyth, and Harald's Keep would then be oriented west to east on the Faendryl northern borderlands, with Barrett's Gorge and Brantur to the west and Gellig on the east coast, and those three fortresses meant to cut off potential intervention from the Elven Nations and possibly to eventually pincer New Ta'Faendryl. Then there is a road from Gellig toward New Ta'Faendryl with the army going around the wastes and the Breaking happening southwest of Gellig and Harald's Keep, with northwest fleeing and Tedronne more in the direction of Brantur and the Wizardwaste, and Creyth more in the direction of Barrett's Gorge.) I think the sensible thing to do here is for there to be an old underground city and for what's now called New Ta'Faendryl to connect down into it, and this surface facade and its five boroughs were centrally planned for organizing the whole society governance structure from the top down. I also think the [[The Theory of Governance and Social Order\|"Patriarchal Palace"]] should be a center city within NTF where the Enchiridion Valentia is kept underground, akin to [https://www.nationsonline.org/maps/Vatican-City-map_1200px.jpg Vatican City], so that the Basilica is architecturally a basilica like it is in OTF and the Palace in the sense of royal residence is its own towering building. Analogous to St. Peter's Basilica versus the Apostolic Palace. This would reconcile some tensions between Faendryl documents about the roles of the Basilica and the Clerisy and the Patriarchal residence and the Enchiridion archives. (e.g. Are the "Basilican Sorcerers" actually the Clerisy? Clerisy positions in the Rachis? Did Second Era Faendryl summoning, such as it actually existed in state sanctioned form, all happen secretly within and under the Basilica itself in OTF in a strictly controlled and scheduled way?)

	::So, either Unsenis and Cestimir should be pushed back to something like Patriarchs 27/28 and those eight unnamed monarchs can be between Cestimir and Rythwier, or a premise can be framed that state sanctioned history by the Faendryl is somewhat revisionist / propaganda in nature and the Faendryl basically redacted that 15,000 year underground period and renumbered the Patriarchs after the Ashrim War to make the underground period sound relatively brief (allowing only one then living memory predecessor for Rythwier.) Rythwier is officially Patriarch 37, for example, but might "in reality" be something like the 53rd Patriarch. I would add an NPC note by an Illistim scholar to the top of "History of the Faendryl" saying the Faendryl have revised their Patriarch numbers to omit things, and generally exaggerate and distort historical precedent or continuity for their current practices with dark magic. That would also take pressure off "[[History of the Faendryl#The Growth of Faendryl Magic\|History of the Faendryl]]" and "[[Introduction to the Enchiridion Valentia and Summoning]]" making it sound like demonic summoning was widespread and public in the capital of the Elven Empire for roughly 20,000 years leading up to the Battle of Maelshyve, while "[[Path to Palestra]]" has the Palestra academies not being founded until after the Ashrim War (and the lesser academies founded under the current Patriarch.)		::So, either Unsenis and Cestimir should be pushed back to something like Patriarchs 27/28 and those eight unnamed monarchs can be between Cestimir and Rythwier, or a premise can be framed that state sanctioned history by the Faendryl is somewhat revisionist / propaganda in nature and the Faendryl basically redacted that 15,000 year underground period and renumbered the Patriarchs after the Ashrim War to make the underground period sound relatively brief (allowing only one then-living memory predecessor for Rythwier.) Rythwier is officially Patriarch 37, for example, but might "in reality" be something like the 53rd Patriarch. I would add an NPC note by an Illistim scholar to the top of "History of the Faendryl" saying the Faendryl have revised their Patriarch numbers to omit things, and generally exaggerate and distort historical precedent or continuity for their current practices with dark magic. That would also take pressure off "[[History of the Faendryl#The Growth of Faendryl Magic\|History of the Faendryl]]" and "[[Introduction to the Enchiridion Valentia and Summoning]]" making it sound like demonic summoning was widespread and public in the capital of the Elven Empire for roughly 20,000 years leading up to the Battle of Maelshyve, while "[[Path to Palestra]]" has the Palestra academies not being founded until after the Ashrim War (and the lesser academies founded under the current Patriarch.)

	::[[User:INIQUITY\|INIQUITY]] ([[User talk:INIQUITY\|talk]]) 19:29, 24 April 2023 (CDT)		::[[User:INIQUITY\|INIQUITY]] ([[User talk:INIQUITY\|talk]]) 19:29, 24 April 2023 (CDT)
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	::The complication then enters from "[[Lines of Blood: A History of the Gnomes#The Great Schism\|Lines of Blood: A History of the Gnomes]]" from roughly 2003 (real world), which dates the burghal gnomes moving into the "Kannalan Empire" a little after the year -135, but it does not say which calendar system it is using. Then "[[Timeline of Elanthian History]]" takes this and makes that "Circa -125" Modern Era. The gnome history is then talking about human cities, and Tamzyrr and "Selanthia" in year +725. Which as a Modern Era date would be 3500 years before the time of Selantha Anodheles. If it is instead +725 Kannalan, that is +3,470 Modern Era. This is still dubious, but significantly less dubious. Tamzyrr was already established as a "town" predating +3,961 Modern Era in "[[History of the Turamzzyrian Empire]]", but which has it "grow[ing] tremendously" after the trade alliance of +4,222 Modern Era. The gnome history talks about Tamzyrr as a town in "-125" and refers to "Selanthia" outside Tamzyrr in "+725". Perhaps "Selanthia" could be defined as Tamzyrr's surrounding territory going back some ways before the Turamzzyrian Empire but still only being "town" sized during the Kannalan Empire period. Selantha would have to be named after the territory rather than the other way around, or else the Gnome history could be taken as sort of anachronistically referring to what the region was named in later centuries.		::The complication then enters from "[[Lines of Blood: A History of the Gnomes#The Great Schism\|Lines of Blood: A History of the Gnomes]]" from roughly 2003 (real world), which dates the burghal gnomes moving into the "Kannalan Empire" a little after the year -135, but it does not say which calendar system it is using. Then "[[Timeline of Elanthian History]]" takes this and makes that "Circa -125" Modern Era. The gnome history is then talking about human cities, and Tamzyrr and "Selanthia" in year +725. Which as a Modern Era date would be 3500 years before the time of Selantha Anodheles. If it is instead +725 Kannalan, that is +3,470 Modern Era. This is still dubious, but significantly less dubious. Tamzyrr was already established as a "town" predating +3,961 Modern Era in "[[History of the Turamzzyrian Empire]]", but which has it "grow[ing] tremendously" after the trade alliance of +4,222 Modern Era. The gnome history talks about Tamzyrr as a town in "-125" and refers to "Selanthia" outside Tamzyrr in "+725". Perhaps "Selanthia" could be defined as Tamzyrr's surrounding territory going back some ways before the Turamzzyrian Empire but still only being "town" sized during the Kannalan Empire period. Selantha would have to be named after the territory rather than the other way around, or else the Gnome history could be taken as sort of anachronistically referring to what the region was named in later centuries.

	::Leaving it as it is now would mean the Kannalan Empire existed for at least several thousand years. That is much longer than the Turamzzyrian Empire, much too long for a weak empire with very little lore defining it. Another more subtle point is that it [[Lines of Blood: A History of the Gnomes#The Great Schism\|says]] ''" Sjandor Withycombe led the Burghal Gnomes into the cities and towns of the Kannalan Empire"'', but then turns around and has Sjandor [[Lines of Blood: A History of the Gnomes#Bloodline Withycombe\|leading]] the burghal gnomes to Tamzyrr, which ~~was~~ ~~already~~ ~~established~~ in "[[History of the Turamzzyrian Empire]]" as ~~not~~ having been part of the Kannalan Empire. Which makes the burghal gnomes in the Kannalan Empire in -125 under Sjandor a misattribution ~~or mythical~~ in the first place. But we cannot just treat it as mythical distortions of what really happened, because the timing was then ~~reified~~ by other documents, "[[Timeline of Elanthian History]]" and [[Ta'Illistim Monarchs]] (converted into the Illistim calendar.)		::Leaving it as it is now would mean the Kannalan Empire existed for at least several thousand years. That is much longer than the Turamzzyrian Empire, much too long for a weak empire with very little lore defining it. Another more subtle point is that it [[Lines of Blood: A History of the Gnomes#The Great Schism\|says]] ''" Sjandor Withycombe led the Burghal Gnomes into the cities and towns of the Kannalan Empire"'', but then turns around and has Sjandor [[Lines of Blood: A History of the Gnomes#Bloodline Withycombe\|leading]] the burghal gnomes to Tamzyrr, which along with the other human cities in the southwest were already [[History of the Turamzzyrian Empire\|established]] as having ''not'' been part of the Kannalan Empire. Which makes the burghal gnomes in the Kannalan Empire in -125 under Sjandor a misattribution in the first place. But we cannot just treat it as mythical distortions of what really happened, because the timing was then reused by other documents, "[[Timeline of Elanthian History]]" and [[Ta'Illistim Monarchs]] (converted into the Illistim calendar.)

	::I would suggest defining the Kannalan Empire as being founded in +2,745 Modern Era with a coronation of the Emperor of Veng, year 0 on the Kannalan calendar, which is a defined title in "[[Incomplete History of River's Rest]]". I do not know if the capital city of Veng has a defined location on the backend somewhere. For various reasons I think it would make most sense to have been somewhere in Hendor, whether or not "Hendor" was a name that only existed later, with the Kingdom of Hendor as its eventual successor state. Then the cities and so forth that formed the Kannalan Empire (or its neighbors in the case of Tamzyrr which was one of the "independent towns" that took in Kannalan refugees in "[[History of the Turamzzyrian Empire]]") would be what the gnome documentation is referencing. "[[Timeline of Elanthian History]]" (which has numerous contradictory dates) could then be tweaked to having the gnomes showing up Circa +2,620 Modern Era and then put parentheses saying "-125 Kannalan". Which recontextualizes the Gnome history document as using Kannalan dates instead of Modern Era dates. The alternative would be to have precursor alliances between cities pre-dating the formal Kannalan Empire (which could begin in +2,745), since human fortifications begin eight thousand years ago circa -3,000 Modern Era, and then the gnome history is just loosely referring to that earlier period (and Tamzyrr) as "Kannalan Empire" in an anachronistic way. Still more tortured would be to have the Kannalan Empire as a continuous entity founded in some deeply negative year on the Kannalan calendar. But I think the cleanest way to handle this is to just have the Gnome history be mostly referring to Kannalan calendar dates, and define year 0 on that calendar system as the Kannalan Empire founding.		::I would suggest defining the Kannalan Empire as being founded in +2,745 Modern Era with a coronation of the Emperor of Veng, year 0 on the Kannalan calendar, which is a defined title in "[[Incomplete History of River's Rest]]". I do not know if the capital city of Veng has a defined location on the backend somewhere. For various reasons I think it would make most sense to have been somewhere in Hendor, whether or not "Hendor" was a name that only existed later, with the Kingdom of Hendor as its eventual successor state. Then the cities and so forth that formed the Kannalan Empire (or its neighbors in the case of Tamzyrr which was one of the "independent towns" that took in Kannalan refugees in "[[History of the Turamzzyrian Empire]]") would be what the gnome documentation is referencing. "[[Timeline of Elanthian History]]" (which has numerous contradictory dates) could then be tweaked to having the gnomes showing up Circa +2,620 Modern Era and then put parentheses saying "-125 Kannalan". Which recontextualizes the Gnome history document as using Kannalan dates instead of Modern Era dates. The alternative would be to have precursor alliances between cities pre-dating the formal Kannalan Empire (which could begin in +2,745), since human fortifications begin eight thousand years ago circa -3,000 Modern Era, and then the gnome history is just loosely referring to that earlier period (and Tamzyrr) as "Kannalan Empire" in an anachronistic way. Still more tortured would be to have the Kannalan Empire as a continuous entity founded in some deeply negative year on the Kannalan calendar. But I think the cleanest way to handle this is to just have the Gnome history be mostly referring to Kannalan calendar dates, and define year 0 on that calendar system as the Kannalan Empire founding.

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:53, 27 April 2023
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	::The eight Patriarchs could maybe be handwaved as referring to the entire [[Timeline of Elanthian History#The Age of Chaos -5000 to -20,000\|five thousand year]] period Despana was known to exist, since most (but [[History of the Sylvan Elves#Chapter Seven - Despana War and Chaos, ca. -15,400 to -15,180\|not all]]) documents have the Undead War being short on the scale of a few years. But then there are just two Patriarchs covering almost 15,000 years up to Rythwier Faendryl and the Ashrim War, with Patriarch 35 starting in roughly -15,180 with the Faendryl exile to the ruins of Maelshyve.		::The eight Patriarchs could maybe be handwaved as referring to the entire [[Timeline of Elanthian History#The Age of Chaos -5000 to -20,000\|five thousand year]] period Despana was known to exist, since most (but [[History of the Sylvan Elves#Chapter Seven - Despana War and Chaos, ca. -15,400 to -15,180\|not all]]) documents have the Undead War being short on the scale of a few years. But then there are just two Patriarchs covering almost 15,000 years up to Rythwier Faendryl and the Ashrim War, with Patriarch 35 starting in roughly -15,180 with the Faendryl exile to the ruins of Maelshyve.

	::(The timing descriptions of the advance to ShadowGuard and its duration are also pretty deeply inconsistent between "[[History of Elanthia#III. A. The Undead War\|History of Elanthia]]" and the Vaalor [[Ilynov Journal\|journal]] [[The Battle of ShadowGuard, A soldier's journal (An eyewitness account)\|documents]] which have that one battle lasting months using Vaalorian calendar dates, while its present northern position on the [[Elanith]] map makes it seem like there is no reason the undead army should have even bothered stopping in that location. If ShadowGuard were instead further south between [https://gswiki.play.net/File:Sylvan_map_sm.jpg Nevishrim] and Ta'Nalfein, it would be more consistent with [[History of the Sylvan Elves#Chapter Seven - Despana War and Chaos, ca. -15,400 to -15,180\|History of the Sylvan Elves]], and would be the Undead blocking in that relatively narrow pass around the mountains while they wreaked havoc in the "outlying provinces" west of the DragonSpine. In that position ShadowGuard's purpose could then be defined as a guardian position on the edge of the Elven Empire's core territory for dark stuff coming out of the southern wastelands, and you could have an extended period of stagnation in the forests around ShadowGuard before Dharthiir suddenly shifts gears and tries to surge northeast into the Elven Empire itself. The Sylvan history also has the Battle of Harradahn in -15,195 ''seven'' years before Maelshyve in -15,188 and later than ShadowGuard, while the Vaalor journals and "[[Wyvern]]" use the equivalent of -15,186 for ShadowGuard, with the Battle of Maelshyve within ''one'' year in -15,185.)		::(The timing descriptions of the advance to ShadowGuard and its duration are also pretty deeply inconsistent between "[[History of Elanthia#III. A. The Undead War\|History of Elanthia]]" and the Vaalor [[Ilynov Journal\|journal]] [[The Battle of ShadowGuard, A soldier's journal (An eyewitness account)\|documents]] which have that one battle lasting months using Vaalorian calendar dates, while its present northern position on the [[Elanith]] map makes it seem like there is no reason the undead army should have even bothered stopping in that location. If ShadowGuard were instead further south between [https://gswiki.play.net/File:Sylvan_map_sm.jpg Nevishrim] and Ta'Nalfein, it would be more consistent with [[History of the Sylvan Elves#Chapter Seven - Despana War and Chaos, ca. -15,400 to -15,180\|History of the Sylvan Elves]], and would be the Undead blocking in that relatively narrow pass around the mountains while they wreaked havoc in the "outlying provinces" west of the DragonSpine. In that position ShadowGuard's purpose could then be defined as a guardian position on the edge of the Elven Empire's core territory for dark stuff coming out of the southern wastelands, and you could have an extended period of stagnation in the forests around ShadowGuard before Dharthiir suddenly shifts gears and tries to surge northeast into the Elven Empire itself. The Sylvan history also has the Battle of Harradahn in -15,195 ''seven'' years before Maelshyve in -15,188 and later than ShadowGuard, while the Vaalor journals and "[[Wyvern]]" use the equivalent of -15,186 for ShadowGuard, with the Battle of Maelshyve within ''one'' year in -15,185. I would suggest -15,196 as the real year for ShadowGuard falling, -15,195 for Harradahn, and Maelshyve at -15,185 or -15,188, and blame it on differences between calendar systems in how they corrected or didn't correct the 365th day of the solar year. Then other inconsistencies would be unreliable narration or differences of emphasis, like Dharthiir recruiting allies as early at [[Timeline of Elanthian History#The Age of Chaos -5000 to -20,000\|-15,497]] and maybe low level provinces conflict reaching back to roughly [[History of the Sylvan Elves#Chapter Six - Nevishrim, ca. -22,460 to -15,490\|-15,490]].)

	::The entire underground period for the Faendryl has almost no definition. The [http://www.beaconhall.net/tsoran/forums/history-forum.html original intent] was for much of (New) Ta'Faendryl to be an underground city, and then "built on a hill overlooking Rhoska-Tor" with [https://web.archive.org/web/19990907215459/http://www.mtsweb.com/eweek/volume2/Varevice.asp regional sinister and eldritch ruins/relics], and then [[History of the Faendryl#New Ta'Faendryl\|later]] documentation had NTF as a [[The Theory of Governance and Social Order#New Ta'Faendryl\|brand new]] surface city built after moving out of Rhoska-Tor to a nearby spot only after the Ashrim War. Except there had to have been other surface constructions prior to that point, such as the port where they launched their war ships and maybe Chesylcha's wedding party. (Which I think should be defined to be Gellig so that Gellig is something major enough to explain why the Faendryl reacted so much more severely to the Turamzzyrian Empire [[History of the Turamzzyrian Empire\|invading]] it in the [[Incomplete History of River's Rest#The River's Rest Irregulars of the Third Elven War\|Third Elven War]]. Tedronne, Creyth, and Harald's Keep would then be oriented west to east on the Faendryl northern borderlands, with Barrett's Gorge and Brantur to the west and Gellig on the east coast, and those three fortresses meant to cut off potential intervention from the Elven Nations and possibly to eventually pincer New Ta'Faendryl. Then there is a road from Gellig toward New Ta'Faendryl with the army going around the wastes and the Breaking happening southwest of Gellig and Harald's Keep, with northwest fleeing and Tedronne more in the direction of Brantur and the Wizardwaste, and Creyth more in the direction of Barrett's Gorge.) I think the sensible thing to do here is for there to be an old underground city and for what's now called New Ta'Faendryl to connect down into it, and this surface facade and its five boroughs were centrally planned for organizing the whole society governance structure from the top down. I also think the [[The Theory of Governance and Social Order\|"Patriarchal Palace"]] should be a center city within NTF where the Enchiridion Valentia is kept underground, akin to [https://www.nationsonline.org/maps/Vatican-City-map_1200px.jpg Vatican City], so that the Basilica is architecturally a basilica like it is in OTF and the Palace in the sense of royal residence is its own towering building. Analogous to St. Peter's Basilica versus the Apostolic Palace. This would reconcile some tensions between Faendryl documents about the roles of the Basilica and the Clerisy and the Patriarchal residence and the Enchiridion archives. (e.g. Are the "Basilican Sorcerers" actually the Clerisy? Clerisy positions in the Rachis? Did Second Era Faendryl summoning, such as it actually existed in state sanctioned form, all happen secretly within and under the Basilica itself in OTF in a strictly controlled and scheduled way?)		::The entire underground period for the Faendryl has almost no definition. The [http://www.beaconhall.net/tsoran/forums/history-forum.html original intent] was for much of (New) Ta'Faendryl to be an underground city, and then "built on a hill overlooking Rhoska-Tor" with [https://web.archive.org/web/19990907215459/http://www.mtsweb.com/eweek/volume2/Varevice.asp regional sinister and eldritch ruins/relics], and then [[History of the Faendryl#New Ta'Faendryl\|later]] documentation had NTF as a [[The Theory of Governance and Social Order#New Ta'Faendryl\|brand new]] surface city built after moving out of Rhoska-Tor to a nearby spot only after the Ashrim War. Except there had to have been other surface constructions prior to that point, such as the port where they launched their war ships and maybe Chesylcha's wedding party. (Which I think should be defined to be Gellig so that Gellig is something major enough to explain why the Faendryl reacted so much more severely to the Turamzzyrian Empire [[History of the Turamzzyrian Empire\|invading]] it in the [[Incomplete History of River's Rest#The River's Rest Irregulars of the Third Elven War\|Third Elven War]]. Tedronne, Creyth, and Harald's Keep would then be oriented west to east on the Faendryl northern borderlands, with Barrett's Gorge and Brantur to the west and Gellig on the east coast, and those three fortresses meant to cut off potential intervention from the Elven Nations and possibly to eventually pincer New Ta'Faendryl. Then there is a road from Gellig toward New Ta'Faendryl with the army going around the wastes and the Breaking happening southwest of Gellig and Harald's Keep, with northwest fleeing and Tedronne more in the direction of Brantur and the Wizardwaste, and Creyth more in the direction of Barrett's Gorge.) I think the sensible thing to do here is for there to be an old underground city and for what's now called New Ta'Faendryl to connect down into it, and this surface facade and its five boroughs were centrally planned for organizing the whole society governance structure from the top down. I also think the [[The Theory of Governance and Social Order\|"Patriarchal Palace"]] should be a center city within NTF where the Enchiridion Valentia is kept underground, akin to [https://www.nationsonline.org/maps/Vatican-City-map_1200px.jpg Vatican City], so that the Basilica is architecturally a basilica like it is in OTF and the Palace in the sense of royal residence is its own towering building. Analogous to St. Peter's Basilica versus the Apostolic Palace. This would reconcile some tensions between Faendryl documents about the roles of the Basilica and the Clerisy and the Patriarchal residence and the Enchiridion archives. (e.g. Are the "Basilican Sorcerers" actually the Clerisy? Clerisy positions in the Rachis? Did Second Era Faendryl summoning, such as it actually existed in state sanctioned form, all happen secretly within and under the Basilica itself in OTF in a strictly controlled and scheduled way?)