Gswiki:Village pump/Archive 009

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Welcome to the village pump, where anyone can say anything about whatever, and people can respond! Yeehaw! Remember to sign your comments by putting 4 tildes (~~~~) at the end.

Copied articles

It seems a user from another GS-related Wiki, http://www.gs4.org/, has started copying articles directly from Krakiipedia. I just wanted to make everyone aware. -Andy talk 13:19, 27 September 2006 (EDT)

Race templates

Elves

The fun continues! Here's a quick change of the human template to an elven template. If no complaints, I, or someone, can go smack on the elven house pages. Rail 22:21, 6 September 2006 (EDT) I went and added the cities and town's section to the template. The templates can really act as a springboard for all things elvish (or any race, with regard to their template). If this is like, I can add a cities and town's section to the human template. Rail 22:30, 6 September 2006 (EDT)

Elf - edit
Great Houses:
Major Settlements:
The Founders:
Famous Elves:
Rulers:

Dwarves

And the Dwarves come marching in. I've done the same treatment for the dwarves...apparently, there are no dwarf fans on the KP. Erm. Rail 23:56, 6 September 2006 (EDT)

Dwarf - edit
Clans:
Major Settlements:
Historic Dwarves:

HK's

Quick and easy. I know of one other HK town, from the Sankir quest, where folks visited for the night before heading off the next morning. Problem. I can't remember its name. I'll have to dig around for it. Rail 00:27, 7 September 2006 (EDT) Template:Half-Krolvins

Alright, U and I were doing some brainstorming just now and some rabid editing, trying to make these just right because still, it just doesn't seem... Perfect... So I went through and added the little info bit on the template page with links to stuff. Then, I was rearranging stuff and all that and really, found a big problem with the human template, and that is that the links that SHOULD be to cultures are actually to locations, and that is all bizaare. This seems to be a human-specific problem, as the others don't seem so bad... But maybe a solution would be to have [[Duchy of Aldora#Aldorans|Aldora]] in there to link to sections that discuss just the culture/people, or just separate pages... But the links from the "Cultures" section should definitely go to a description of the people. I've had a few beers so maybe that doesn't make as much sense as it could, but... Yeah. Oh, also, just noticed that this page is in a bunch of categories now, from having the template pages on it, so that shouldn't be. justin talk 03:03, 7 September 2006 (EDT)

It wasn't a mistake, but by design. It just doesn't make sense to have dual articles for whats basically the same topic. I.E., we shouldn't have Torre and Torre (culture). The human cultures are in essence, just locations where humans are from. Simu set up their documentation in the exact same manner. The perfect article on a human culture should have everything about that culture, geography, economy, traditions and history. The only time this should be different, is if the history of the province is long enough to warrant its own article. If asked to define "Torre culture" there is no information that tells you how a Torren is supposed to think, act, or behave. This all must be disseminated from the total information about the province and humans in general. I strongly recommend rolling back most, if not all the changes incorporated. As for the the Village Pump page being in cats, none of the racial templates should have had any code for category inclusion. Rail 08:14, 7 September 2006 (EDT)

Hmmmm, sorry about any confusion or misunderstanding or whatever, but here I'll try to catalog my changes and rationalize them. If you don't like, them, feel free to change anything back. You're right about the humans/cultures thing and I understand where you are coming from on it, and definitely had that view for awhile as I was poking through the play.net humans docs and even (gag) going through the first stages of rolling up a human ;). However, to my mind, the problem is that when we make a general race template, it should be designed well enough such that it is applicable to all the races; the categories should work just as well for Humans as Elves. So when you look at elves, it works out beautifully. There is the category for each house, and a category for each of the cities associated with those houses, plus a couple. So I'd expect that the Humans page would have a list of cultures (similar to the elven houses) and then a list of cities/towns (which is probably similar to the list of cultures, which seems horribly redundant). So now what? We have something where our template won't be consistent, and that's what is really bothering me. I don't know, but it just doesn't seem quite right with respect to the humans yet, though I don't know what else to do. Feel free to change anything about it or try to explain your vision a bit more. Here are a list of changes I'd made and why, you can roll most of them back if you'd like:

  • Added text pointing to the nav template page and links and such to each template (something that should be on ever nav template page - don't take this away)
  • Changed the titles from, say, "Elven Cultures" to "Elf" since the box is descrbing both elven cultures and elven cities. The previous title no longer seemed appropriate.
  • Added a couple of the cities that are generally associated with humans to the human template.
  • Shortened the descriptions of the human cultures from "Barony of Highmount" to "Highmount". This was done mostly for brevity, and if you are describing someone "from Highmount" you will rarely describe them as "from the Barony of Highmount". This is also more consistent with what text is displayed in game. (You see Joe Schmoe, a Human from Highmount").
  • Alphebetized the human cultures (including putting Tehir in the appropriate place. Though yes they are not part of the empire, the template really isn't "The Tumuzuuzzian Empire and Tehir", it's "Humans".

Like I said before, I really don't know what to do about the human page to make it consintent with the others. I think that these of course are useful and worth us figuring out and getting right, but it needs to be understood that these templates are only as strong as their generalizability. They need to be brief, useful, and non-redundant, which yes, I still can't figure out how to rationalize with humanity, which if you think about it, should look a lot more like the dwarf template. The problem is that there really are just too many human cultures and cities... Anyway, yeah, that's why I did what I did. Rest assured that it's not me just running around being an ass and putting my stamp on everything or whatever, this really does cause me way more mental anguish and all that trying to figure out how to make it just right. Roll back at your leisure. justin talk 11:06, 7 September 2006 (EDT) PS, punch me in the face RE the categories thing. That's the list of templates used, so I was being just totally dumb.

Let me begin by saying, I agreed with the change in title and the addition of the text to the template pages. The human culture lover in me prefers the more lengthy titles, but somethings do need to be shorter. Thats why its peer reviewed, after all, let others with a more objective view make the changes! I see only one thing I will definitely change, which is restore North and South Hendor to their own seperate identities. While both have a shared history, that shared history technically ended about 370 years ago! So no one Hendor to rule them all. As for over all size, these templates can and should serve as sort of the one stop looking point for all things related to the specified race. So I believe the human cities should be added (there's a lot of 'em, but thats what the template is for, after all!) I understand the frustration with the Elf and Dwarf compared to humans, but unfortunately, humans evolved beyond organizing themselves along family or clan units. ;) Rail 23:01, 7 September 2006 (EDT)

Actually, that is not what the navigational templates are for. They are intended as quick, accessible navigation between related articles. The "one stop looking point" you're referring to would be the category. At this time, the only difference between these templates and their related categories is the fact they incorporate both cultures as well as locations. Unfortunately, that is hardly enough to merit their inclusion into every associated page, which will already have a link to it's category. For these templates to be remotely useful, they would need to possess a wider variety of seperately categorized articles, such as links to historical articles in addition to cultures and locations. For instance, if one were to compose the contents of the related articles section of the Dark elf page into a template, that might be worthy. In their current iteration I feel all of the race templates should receive the {{delete}} template so that Oliver can come in and clean up this unnecessary mess. who is Ulthripe reads this 00:03, 8 September 2006 (EDT)

Human template

I bravely borrowed the wizard template and altered it for the human cultures with the below result. Unless anyone can think of improvements or suggestions, I'll place it on each culture page later tonight. Rail 18:29, 6 September 2006 (EDT)

Turamzzyrian Empire and Tehir - edit
Duchy of Aldora | County of Allace | Barony of Bourth | Earldom of Chastonia | Barony of Dragach | Earldom of Estoria | Earldom of North Hendor | Earldom of South Hendor | Barony of Highmount | Earldom of Honneland | Barony of Jantalar | Barony of Mestanir | Barony of Oire | Barony of Riverwood | County of Seareach | Duchy of Selanthia | Barony of Talador | County of Torre | County of Trauntor | Barony of Vornavis
Tehir
I admire your bravery, but the poor Tehir look lonely. -Andy talk 19:35, 6 September 2006 (EDT)
I'd just ask that you use different colors, since that one I'd bookmarked in my head for the profession templates, but otherwise, cool. <3 templates. justin talk 19:44, 6 September 2006 (EDT) PS, use subtle-ish colors (ie, stay away from any color Ulthripe has ever thought about using)
How's this? Note, the Tehir are no longer the anti-social dusty people. Rail 20:42, 6 September 2006 (EDT)
Human - edit
Cultures:
Cities:
Famous Humans:

Now that I think of it, I think it'd be more good to have one of those for each race, so that that would be the Human template. And then there would be an Elven, Dark Elven, Sylvankind, etc... So maybe just call it Human? Wait, are those all the human cultures? I don't really know =P, and don't want to go look, but I think they are. But yeah, it should generally be adaptable to all the races, which I think is generally a good idea. Good work. justin talk 20:45, 6 September 2006 (EDT) (Color is better, but I'd change the background to a really really light yellow instead of the really really light blue that it is)

I take that back, I kind of like the yellow on light blue. Dunno, pick something you love and run with it. justin talk 20:49, 6 September 2006 (EDT)
Works for me! Unless someone beats me to it, I'll work next on the different races. Rail 20:56, 6 September 2006 (EDT)

Completely agree

100 creature categories is absolutely brilliant. -- April

Actually, April, I think that's a terrible idea. Why oh why would I ever want to look up, say Level 43 critters? I think that if I wanted to browse creatures on KP I'd want a level range. So, I'd want, say, level 40-45 creatures. I think that makes a lot more sense. Maybe one of our godlike admins could start making categories for the creatures in level ranges. Then we'd only have 20. Honestly, you're usually pretty good, but having 100 creature levels seems a bit much to me. justin talk 16:30, 6 September 2006 (EDT)
I don't know what you've been smoking, but whatever it is, I need it. 100+ level categories is not nearly discrete enough - for example, I would love to have a Category:List of creatures that begin with the letter A, Creatures with four or more legs and arms, and Category:Creatures that carry boxes with a lock difficulty somewhere in the area of 215. Those are everyday resources that are useful for everyone. -- April 16:44, 6 September 2006 (EDT)
You're starting to get a glimpse of my vision. When we're done, there will probably even be such pages as Category:Creatures That Gen Once Every 90 Seconds and Have an AS of 220 and Swing Claidhmores. It'll be hot. justin talk 16:47, 6 September 2006 (EDT)
I just hope that one day Ollie will be able to make our dreams come true. -- April 16:51, 6 September 2006 (EDT)
I'm glad you agree. I'm also glad that the plans I have for ranged creature categories meet and even exceed your expectations. I do hope you won't mind when I remove all the level ranges you you painstakingly added to the templates, which are entirely unnecessary for my plans. But thanks for trying to help anyway. - Oliver Talk 16:38, 6 September 2006 (EDT)
Since I'm the one who started the mess, I'll offer that the initial reasonsing was that since the creature template used specified levels, I'd use specific level categories. As the Gemstone Bestiary (not the greatest database) uses specific levels, I also figured that this approach was suitable. Both systems, however, can happily exist side by side. I think a next logical category would actually be something like Solhaven Hunting Area. Thus, having an overall grouping of creatures by level and by location. Rail 16:38, 6 September 2006 (EDT)
ZOMG SWOON! Oliver is going to do something so awesome that if he were to leak it, it would ruin the surprise and stock prices would plummet. Also, to protect us from further disaster, he's going to just go back rolling back changes (that many of us had discussed) without comment to protect him from prior art charges when he patents it. Actually, no I think that before going ahead and implementing a sweeping change, all ideas should be posted here for all of us to discuss for at least a week. kthx justin talk 16:44, 6 September 2006 (EDT)

Rare Item Lists

What does everyone think about putting up a section listing all of the rare items out there? (Auction, raffle, etc) I've started a page at Rare Items, but would like to know what people think and just how it should look before comitting too much effort into it. Also if we can get something nailed down as to how we should organise it, we could make a good template Septus 18:47, 5 September 2006 (EDT)

Spell Templates, Round 2

I've completed all three potential spell templates at this time. I've also taken the liberty of including a definitions page which explains the terms used in the template and the values which can placed in each of those fields. Eventually, each value should have its own defining page (many already do). Examples can be found on 401 and 415 as with before. I also updated any articles which were already using the templates, so the information displayed wouldn't be interrupted from the change. Some notes and/or discussion topics follow. who is Ulthripe reads this 07:22, 4 September 2006 (EDT)

  • Again, I'm not married to the whole color scheme thing, but I would like to know if this is any more tolerable than previously.
  • Andy and I came up with the idea of turning the field names into links, each with their own descriptive articles. Alternately, they could all link to the help page which outlines them already. I'm still on the fence, personally.
  • I strongly feel (and others have agreed) that type-specific spell templates are the way to go. The template encapsulates all of the information about each spell that one would wish to reference quickly. I ask that anyone opposed to this change seriously considers the function of them, and the enhanced reference capabilities they offer.

I've got it. You're colorblind. Other than that, I think that yes, having the name fields as links would be great (ie 'Availability' and 'Span' would link to articles (or sections of a page) that describes the options there. Other than that, yes, I like these templates a lot. The colors, though? You must be joking. For colors, I'd use: Defense Magic CCFF99 Utility Magic 99CCFF Offensive Magic FF9999 or Offensive Magic CC6666. Though the defensive and utility ones aren't so readable, I'd not use them for the text in the cell anyway, just the border and/or background. Maybe something like this?

Spell name (###)
Defense Magic
Mnemonic [{{{mnemonic}}}]
Type {{{type}}}
Base Duration {{{base_dur}}}
Additional Duration {{{add_dur}}}
Span {{{span}}}
Availability {{{availability}}}

Just my thoughts (ps only made one of the links work, because, you know, i'm lazy. justin talk 13:28, 4 September 2006 (EDT)

Remove the colors. The descriptive text in the heading is enough. I'd also pick either Offense/Defense/Utility or Offensive/Defensive/Utility for the headings, not the current mix. Looking over the linked Help page, I noticed the provision of using Special in any field so long as the article provides sufficient explanation. Doesn't this go against your earlier feelings that every option of a spell template should be required? Or is it sufficient that something is typed into the template, just as long as the field is filled? I've included more comments on each template's talk page. - Oliver Talk 09:25, 5 September 2006 (EDT)

Colors are useful for a number of reasons. Keep them, just make them not make baby jesus (or moses or whoever) cry. As to Oliver picking on U about, the field labels, [[{{PAGENAME}}#Subsection|Special]] is very very very different from N/A for obvious reasons. justin talk 12:27, 5 September 2006 (EDT) (not a bully)

Personally, I like the colors, and I don't see where they'd hurt, except in the cases where it makes things difficult to read (and I do believe the current green text in the Defensive Spell template is, but Justin's alternative is not). They do nothing but help, really, if you ask me, but the whole issue is rather minor, at best. Visually, however, I find the colors more appealing, and that is one of the aspects of an encyclopedia IE, a work of art. Here, I'll dig those up for you guys just to give an idea of what I'm referring to. [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], and [6]. I realize we're not, exactly, an encyclopedia, but I believe that these values and views remain true, even to our application. Though, the mechanics should be as accurate as possible, in the more specific articles. Anyway! That's my $0.02. -Andy talk 19:05, 5 September 2006 (EDT)

New Profession Template

Hey all, I was prerusing WP and found an awesome navigational feature: navigational templates. So I shamelessly stole it, and have made one for Wizard and am currently making one for Professions. The biggest complaint that I (and others I've had) is that KP is really hard to navigate, so this make things a lot more fun and exciting, and yeah, maybe even more user-friendly. Maybe we could even define styles... In any case, here's the wizard template as I've got it now:

Wizard Profession - edit
Spell Circles: Wizard Base Spells | Major Elemental Spells | Minor Elemental Spells
Professional Highlights: Bolt spells | Call Familiar | Enchanting | Charge Item
Popular Archetypes: Pure Mage | War Mage | Charging Mage | Enchanter

Let's talk about it! justin talk 13:05, 28 August 2006 (EDT)

I think it looks sexy! Also, super-functional. Good work! who is Ulthripe reads this 19:25, 28 August 2006 (EDT)

Use of {{delete}} Template

When using this template, do not replace the entire article's contents with it, but merely add it to the heading of the article. Thanks. - Oliver Talk 14:40, 22 August 2006 (EDT)

Treasure System

Would anyone object to me putting all the information I've collected over the years on gems and such in here? I'm thinking of listing every gem type in seperate articles, as, there are a ton of them and putting every gem in one article might make it a bit cluttered. I don't mean, though, that I'm going to put say, blue sapphires, pink sapphires, and yellow sapphires in seperate articles, but one article for, say, all sapphires. Granted, there are enough unique gems to where this will make a lot of different pages, no less. Ideas, comments, objections? I've a lot of information on this stuff.

Additionally, I'm curious if I should add an article on the entire treasure system, detailing on how the value of the items found changes based on how often the area is hunted. This information would include skins, gems, boxes, etc. Granted, I admit that my research on these subjects is limited, and most of it is speculative. -Andy talk 17:36, 9 July 2006 (EDT)

Can't object to the addition of content! I agree each article name should be the basic noun (sapphire, diamond, emerald, etc.) and the page itself should list the variable adjectives (much like the format we decided upon for creatures) and the values/areas they can be found, and whatever else.
On the treasure system, an article should definately exist. Currently, I've been referring to the Treasure Mechanics saved post, so be sure you == Related Links == it. I would suggest a list of the types of items which can be recovered through the treasure system in such an article (Gems, Silver, Boxes, Magic items, etc.). who is Ulthripe reads this 18:28, 9 July 2006 (EDT)

Alright, I added a page on sapphires, with a gem template. I came up with two formats for it, which I put on the Krakiipedia:Sandbox, but since I liked the second format better (it looks cleaner to me when you've a huge list of gems, like there are in the Sapphire article), I went ahead and switched them over. Clearly, there were a number of edits to get the format right, as there often are with templates, and I doubt I'm done... the use of the <br> tag means that there is more space between gems with longer descriptions, which I intend on fixing with a table with a set height at some point, if I can get it to look right. -Andy talk 23:21, 9 July 2006 (EDT)

New Spell Templates

Check out articles 401 and 415. I've created two new spell templates which I think are necessary because each type of spell (attack/defense/utility) has different basic features, therefore requires a unique template (utility template to come, its gonna be blue). I'm not in love with the colors or anything, I simply thought it important to differentiate each spell type by making it obvious at-a-glance. Irvine had the interesting idea of color-coding each spell by its circle, which I'm not against, but I would have to find another way of visually differentiating each spell type. Anyways, please do share your opinions, I'd like to hear them (especially Ollie's). who is Ulthripe reads this 07:37, 30 June 2006 (EDT)

I don't see how this is better than the existing spell template. There's nothing about the colors tha makes anything obvious at-a-glance. If anything, it makes it more confusing, requiring visitors who are not familiar with what the colors mean (or even that they mean anything) to take extra effort to figure it out. The text presented in the existing spell template is more than sufficient in providing all the important basic information about a particular spell. Anything else is handled by the spell description. It also seriously disrupts any attempt at cohesive visual style of Krakiipedia (I'm not a fan of the inconsistent table coloration within some other articles, either, and am planning on doing a review and developing a single unifying table design.) Also, in the future, when proposing changes like this, do not make changes the existing articles to illustrate. Use either that article's Talk page, or the Sandbox.
Oliver Talk 10:57, 30 June 2006 (EDT)

I do, however, like how he lists attack spells as warding spells. And, your last statement goes against the general "Be Bold" policy that we've been holding to, and personally, I disagree with that entirely. -Andy talk 13:01, 30 June 2006 (EDT)

If you'll take a look at the Help:Style (spells) you will note that including the type of attack (be it bolt, warding, or what have you) is already a part of our style specification. I'm not entirely sure what "Be Bold" policy you're refering to. Our style and layout guidelines are not set in stone, but neither do I agree that a change like this has any real positive effect, or that there is any issue with the current spell templates. The existing spell template already clearly states what type of spell is being described. Using a color-based system unnecessarily complicates something that is already presented in simplest terms. Is there some underlying issue that this change would address that I'm not seeing?
Oliver Talk 17:16, 30 June 2006 (EDT)

I'm not a huge fan of the specific colors used, but that's just me. I don't mind the fact that there are colors, but again, it's really not that useful. The color coding is more useful for interpreting information at a glance. Say you have a whole list of the 400's, and you want to color-code those with a nice legend beside it, bravo. But here, I'll say that it doesn't really add anything, since you'll likely never see two of those tables on the same page. Then again, I'll say bravo for making the pages, though making the page you made link to .../wiki/401 would be great so it was easier to link to. Smooches, ALKALOIDS 17:27, 30 June 2006 (EDT)

Be Bold! That's what I'm referring to. In any case, I believe that U is right in saying that different types of spells should be listed seperately, as not all bits of information are really applicable to all spells. For example, the duration doesn't really apply to most attack spells. Only those with a duration would have a field for being stackable or not. Having a seperate field for being stackable or not reduces the overall length of the duration field, does it not? But then, I don't work on spells, generally, the only exceptiong being 1625... which doesn't really fall under most spell classifications. I don't mind the color coding, myself, and I was particularly annoyed when someone felt the need to remove the colors from my table on the herb page. Though, I also tend to lean towards more subdued colors. -Andy talk 19:26, 30 June 2006 (EDT)
As I've said many times, this is not Wikipedia. Their policies do not hold sway here. In any case, the policy refers to updating articles on a content level, not reformating their visual style to a point where they go against the established style guidelines for the wiki. This change should have been proposed and discussed before being actively persued. - Oliver Talk 11:56, 4 August 2006 (EDT)

The improvement I attempted was to account for each type of spell being fundamentally different in its attributes. As Andy said, "not all bits of information are really applicable to all spells." For instance, attack spells wont have a "span" and defense spells shouldnt have a "range." I can agree with your policy of keeping things simple as to not confuse the casual reader, but each attribute of the spell (such as whether its stackable/refreshable/block duration) needs to be on there. To me, an important part of a template is that it requires the user to enter all of the necessary/desired information or makes it obvious when that information is missing. It bothers me that some attack spells have an attack type (bolt/warding/maneuver) listed, while its left out of others. The whole colors thing I'm not married to, and I can even agree it sticks out like a sore thumb. Anyways, thank you all for the comments, prototype 2 coming soon. who is Ulthripe reads this 06:43, 1 July 2006 (EDT)

I agree that enforcing the inclusion of all pertinent information is beneficial. but this essentially boils down to a change in KP guidelines, which should not be initiated lightly or without discussion, and certainly should not be applied without either. Arbitrarily creating new templates to replace old ones and rolling that change through articles does no good for KP. It creates inconsistancy between articles and between the style guide and what is in practice. - Oliver Talk 11:56, 4 August 2006 (EDT)

Well, in U's defense, him, Justin, and I did discuss it prior to U adding the templates. I even helped in their creation. I appologize for leaving you out of the loop. -Andy talk 20:59, 4 August 2006 (EDT)

Also, of course, I'll just throw in that 1) U did nothing more than create the template then offer it up here for discussion 2) this has had a VERY thorough discussion and was most certainly not "initiated lightly or without discussion" and 3) it was me who got sick of waiting for U to "finish" it and decided that, since I wanted to make pages for some more defensive spells, and that while not perfect, the new template was agreed upon my several of the most contributing editors here as being superior, I would go ahead and go through systematically (though sadly not all at once) and apply it to the defensive spells, and maybe others soon. That is a retardedly long sentence and my head is spinning now, so I'm sure I screwed up at least a thing or two in there grammar-wise. I guess this - to me at least - looks like a case of something being user-initiated, user-discussed and agreed-upon, and user-implemented without your express consent. Imagine. justin talk 21:46, 4 August 2006 (EDT)

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