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<noinclude>
{{saved post
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| category = Wizards
</noinclude><table width="275" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="10" style="float: left; margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9e9; border: 2px #aaa solid; border-collapse: collapse;"><tr><td><table border="0" style="background: none;"><tr><td>[[Image:Gamemasterapproved.png|50px]]</td><td><span style="float: right; font-style: italic;">{{{1|This section}}} has been formally reviewed and is accurate.</span></td></tr></table></td></tr></table><noinclude>[[Category:Editing templates]]</noinclude>
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 100
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 04/07/2012 10:22 AM PDT
| subject = Re: recharge query
}}
You should review the info about charge item on Krakiipedia at http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Charge_Item


<noinclude>
-- Robert
<br><br><br><br>
With specification:
{{:User:DOUG/Sandbox Archive Test|Channel}}
</noinclude>


<noinclude>
Much to your horror, a devastating inferno of flaming rocks ignite the entire sky and smite the area!
<br>
{{saved post
An entire article (placed appropriately, mind):
| category = Wizards
{{:User:DOUG/Sandbox Archive Test|This article}}
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
</noinclude>
| messagenum = 101
| author = GELSTONJ
| date = on 07/16/2012 12:37 AM PDT
| subject = Another 502 idea
}}
Make it a flare adding spell, basically the flare portion of 411. Something that can stack with 902. I don't see is as OP at all and it is far better than the uselessness of the 502 we currently have.

~James
Player of Septimius
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 102
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 07/16/2012 07:14 AM PDT
| subject = (Yet another) 502 spell proposal
}}
While I'm not opposed to scrapping the current spell entirely, I've been giving some thought to trying to make 502 useful along the lines of its original intent.

I would make the duration of the ability RECALL a spell initially short (maybe 2 minutes) with the ability to extend it out to about 10 minutes based on training ranks related to the spell being stored (Wizard ranks for wizard spells, Major Elemental ranks for Major Elemental spells, etc).



Duration: Special

Type: Utility

Often times the outcome of a battle is determined by who can react first. Because the wizard often is hindered by lengthy gestures and chants, Spell Store has become an invaluable first strike weapon.

After casting this spell, the caster can then cast any of his or her other spells which will be prepared and stored away in such a way that it can be instantly recalled and cast. The spell to be stored must be cast within 30 seconds after Spell Store. Mana for the stored spell is expended up front as all of the preparations are completed in advance except for the final step of casting the spell.

To recall a stored spell the caster need only use RECALL and then CAST the spell. No additional mana will be expended or time required due to the advanced preparations taken.

Note: Although spell store does hold a spell for a long time, it does not do so forever; the exact time when this fails depends on the caster's activity.

Example:

''>incant 502''
You recite a series of mystical phrases while raising your hands, invoking Spell Store...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture.
You feel the magic surge through you.
(If you prepare a spell in the next 30 seconds, it will be stored.)
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

''>prepare major fire''
Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Major Fire...
Your spell is prepared and ready to release. [Spell is stored and ready to cast. Use RECALL to cast within the next 10 minutes].
Roundtime 3 seconds.

''>prep 901''
Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Shock...
Your spell is ready.
''>cast at stone''
You gesture at a pink rhodochrosite stone.
Nothing happens.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

''>RECALL''
Energies for the Major Fire spell rush to the forefront of your mind ready to be unleashed.

''>cast at stone''
Prepared in advance, you release the energies of your Major Fire spell with a single thought.
You gesture at a pink rhodochrosite stone.
You hurl a roaring ball of fire at a pink rhodochrosite stone!
The rhodochrosite stone glows with a warm aura then quickly cools off.
Cast Roundtime 0 Seconds.

-- Faulkil
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 103
| author = IRVINETOMOE
| date = on 08/07/2012 12:51 PM PDT
| subject = Spell Store 2.0 (Suggestion)
}}
Duration: 20 minutes

Type: Utility

There are times, in the heat of battle, where mana becomes a premium. One may not immediately have access to all of his or her magical resources due to this.

Using Spell Store, a Wizard can prepare a spell, invest its mana, and store the spell in the back of his or her mind for later use. Using the verb RECALL, the Wizard will immediately have the spell in a prepared state again, but will not incur a mana cost upon using it. The Wizard can use as many spells as desired while keeping a spell in Spell Store.

Training in Elemental Mana Control will allow a Wizard to store additional instances of the same spell. An additional cast is available at 20 ranks, 50 ranks, and every 50 after that, for a maximum 6 casts at 200 ranks.

Spells invoked from foreign Spell Circles can be stored, but incur a penalty, which is offset by training in the Major Elemental Circle. The default chance to succeed is 50%, with an additional +2% success for every rank of MjE, reaching 100% at rank 27.

Training in Elemental Lore will allow select Elemental spells a chance to be have their "charge" used when cast in such a manner. For instance, a Wizard trained in Fire Lore storing the Spell Immolation may find that upon using it, his understanding of the intricacies of the spell allows it to be RECALLed a second time, without preparation. This chance is based on SEED 6 of the summation chart, with 1% chance at Rank 6, finishing at 15% chance at 195 ranks in Elemental Lore.

Usage: Prepare and cast Spell Store. For 30 seconds, any spell prepared will be stored, and incur the standard mana cost immediately. RECALL will bring the spell back to the mind of the Wizard, and casting the spell will cost no mana.



All the specifics are just ideas for general concepts. The lore benefits and additional gains for the spell are just concepts, subject to as much change or even removal as the GMs see fit. I just felt that I might make this suggestion.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 104
| author = HOUSERA
| date = on 10/02/2012 11:40 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Spell Store 2.0 (Suggestion)
}}
Neat idea. Doesn't take away from what Spell Store already does, but makes it much more useful.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 105
| author = JWOLFE
| date = on 10/05/2012 11:49 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Spell Store 2.0 (Suggestion)
}}
I remember always thinking spell store was rather useless.

This idea is great. :)
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 106
| author = BLACKKOBOLD
| date = on 10/08/2012 07:54 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Spell Store 2.0 (Suggestion)
}}
Or maybe let the recalled spell to be cast without cast RT as well as for no mana. This would allow some interesting possibilities. For instance, you could store major cold and macro recalling and casting immediately followed by incanting fire for an instant ice/fire combo to shatter stone creatures. Or just a good way to front-load a big hit. It'd definitely get used a lot more!

~Taverkin
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 107
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 03/29/2013 01:14 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Spell Store 2.0 (Suggestion)
}}
^ This

Or have it let the next spell cast cost 0 mana, with a 30-60 second cooldown or something, at least on spells above X level.

Having no cooldown for spells under a certain level would help low level mages out drastically, and having a cooldown for higher level spells would help when you need to squeeze out just one more cast but don't have enough mana for it, making it useful for everybody without being overpowered.

Or if you want to make it more fun, make it a warding spell that will make the critter attack itself on the next round. Shuffle around some spell slots (504, 512, etc.) if needed if a level 2 slot is too low for that. This would be mostly just for lulz.

If it were up to me, I'd make 502 a cross realm teleport spell with no reagents or cost or cooldown associated with it. Just let us fly everywhere. Not OP. Not OP at all.

~ Methais
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 108
| author = TRIDIUS
| date = on 04/07/2013 09:55 PM PDT
| subject = my 3 cents
}}
Ok, I'm going to throw my 2 cents in here. Actually, 3 cents since I have 3 things I would like to see.

1. change 502 into another bolt spell, since the 500 sphere only has 2 natural bolt spells (510 & 518). If you want to get technical, it can have 3, but 505 is not a natural bolt spell. What I would prefer to see is another earthly bolt spell, since 510 is the only bolt spell that deals with the earth sphere that a wizard can cast. you could even make it a pure elemental bolt spell that is influenced by either A.) your attuned element or B.) your highest trained elemental sphere. in essence, it could be 5 different spells in one, however each wizard would get a different spell dependent on their training/attuned element. i've been waiting for something like this ever since i read "and access to spells that are not available to those ignorant of the secrets of <element> magic." (pulled from http://www.play.net/gs4/info/skills.asp#elemlore)

2.) if it must stay as some sort of spell store, why not make it a powersink? after casting, prepare the next spell and infuse more mana into the spell, creating a stronger version of the spell at a greater mana cost. Similar to 117, but instead of increasing AS it increases the damage factor depending on the amount of mana sunk into it. Granted, we are always trying to find ways to conserve our mana, but i think having a bigger damage factor like this can at least come in handy for things such as invasions, kill dangerous creature bounty, grimswarms, or if something higher level wanders into your hunting area.

3. I would love to see 550 be a spell that turns the caster into an elemental being, greatly increasing that element's power but making the caster susceptible to the converse element (such as fire/ice). there are plenty of ways to keep casters from staying elemental, such as losing access to spells while in the form, permanently destroying armor/runestaff, destroying items worn, losing items in containers, berserking (becoming stuck in offensive), draining mana/stamina ... i could go on ... and plenty of benefits that could be added on for being in elemental form. since we are made to be masters of the elements, let us be masters of them. it's not much different than assume aspect, but i think it could be quite an interesting addition for both role players and power hunters.

All of these would work perfectly for the major elemental circle. Again, just my 3 cents.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 109
| author = BLACKKOBOLD
| date = on 04/08/2013 09:08 AM PDT
| subject = Re: my 3 cents
}}
Why not blend the two ideas and kill off a few redundant spells while we're at it. I see no reason why it needs to be placed in the 502 slot either. Kill 502, but also kill all single-cast natural bolts. Consolidate them into a single spell. Likewise consolidate ball spells into a single spell. And expand the cone functionality.

Here's the idea:

901 - Elemental bolt

Usage: prepare/incant 901/elemental bolt <Element Name> <# of additional mana from 0-9 points>

Element types would of course include the basic elements currently available to wizards, but could be expanded via lore training to include more exotic elemental types. For instance, combination water/fire lore could unlock steam as an element. A certain amount of fire lore could unlock plasma. And so on.

The amount of additional mana allowed could perhaps be linked to harness power/EMC skill in such a way as to create a clear progression over time. No more giving 10 mana spells to characters with only 30 mana available to use! But as a tradeoff for this limitation DF could be made variable. The idea here is that DF is linked to trained skill thresholds such that the cost for the same DF is higher as you gain levels, but your potential damage ceiling is also higher. The maximum cost of elemental bolt would be 10 mana, but it would be far more flexible in that it would allow any element to produce results similar to 910/510. At the low end you should be able to spend relatively small amounts of mana to produce better results. This should be matched to realistic expectations for mana so that we aren't starving our young wizards and forcing them to swing a weapon for their introductory period as is often the case today. And like it is now, I don't expect a high level wizard would always wish to spend the maximum amount of mana. Sometimes 5 or 6 mana will do. It depends upon the target! This spell has all the flexibility we need.

Now apply the same thing to ball spells. A single spell that allows the wizard to choose an element, with additional lore unlocks, and variable DF based upon trained skills.

And maybe cone spells. But you may wish to consider placing some skill requirements on additional targets and perhaps a cooldown to avoid the issue of too many cones in too short a time during events! Please don't use MOC. Make it a lore requirement perhaps. Base number of targets, increased by lores, with the advantage of being able to choose your preferred element.

I also like the idea of being able to temporarily boost AS with these spells. It'd perhaps be a nice touch for a lore unlock with a cooldown. You can use the boost if you have sufficient skill in the element you're using, but then you can't use the boost again for a short period of time. That shouldn't be too powerful. It'll just help when you have a particularly tough target. And the cost is appropriate.

~Taverkin
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 110
| author = BLACKKOBOLD
| date = on 04/08/2013 09:09 AM PDT
| subject = Re: my 3 cents
}}
Also, if you do make this idea reality, how about some saved settings so you can set mana/element for future use?

~Taverkin
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 111
| author = LORDEVARIN
| date = on 04/08/2013 10:08 AM PDT
| subject = Re: my 3 cents
}}
Add to this list a Mass Slow option for 504, or at least a multi-target version.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 112
| author = BLACKKOBOLD
| date = on 04/08/2013 10:34 AM PDT
| subject = Re: my 3 cents
}}
Yeah, 504 isn't all that useful against a solitary opponent. You're usually better off using a killing or disabling spell. But against multiple opponents and in combination with RT-inducing CC, a mass version of slow could be a far more useful spell. You'd definitely see a lot more use of this spell!

~Taverkin
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 113
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 04/13/2013 01:23 AM PDT
| subject = Re: my 3 cents
}}
Slow should cause an initial RT when cast on a target.

502 should either make the next spell cast either be free or have reduced mana cost. Or either make your next spell double cast, or grant a buff that gives you X chance for your spells to double cast, and the buff goes away when a double cast occurs.

502 is so useless right now that it could be changed to restore 1 mana at the cost of 2 mana and it would still be more useful than it is now.

~ Methais
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 114
| author = LORDEVARIN
| date = on 04/13/2013 05:45 AM PDT
| subject = Re: my 3 cents
}}
Spell store would be nice if it actually banked a spell so that you could cast several at once. Initial value of 1 extra, eventually leading to 2 or 3 extra plus your first.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 115
| author = LORDEVARIN
| date = on 04/13/2013 06:45 AM PDT
| subject = Re: my 3 cents
}}
As for another improvement idea, why not make a pre-cast spell that makes your bolt MUCH harder to evade/block/parry? I doubt the EVP system was designed to screw over bolters, as there is no such balancing act for warding based magic. There would be a cost associated with the spell, whatever is appropriate without being excessive. 502 seems as good a slot as any.

Prep 502, then prep the bolt spell you wish to enhance. When you cast the bolt, an added cost appropriate to the level of bolt along with whatever training you have to mitigate it is factored into the final tally of the spell.

Simple, useful, and not overpowered. No worries about upsetting creature balance as they wouldn't be casting this spell at players.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 116
| author = DRAFIX
| date = on 06/07/2013 02:54 AM PDT
| subject = 511 - The unsuspecting gem gobbler
}}
Could 511 be updated so that it doesn't automatically eat the gem in your hand but instead require you to cast AT the gem to do that coloured disk effect? I sadly keep losing random gems because I forgot I had it in my hand. This time it was a rift black diamond that I didn't shove back in my pouch before realizing I forgot to cast a disk. :/
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 117
| author = WINTERMYST
| date = on 07/15/2014 09:46 AM PDT
| subject = Mana and spells
}}
Would it be possible to implement a store mana spell that could be cast at a familiar, like sorcerers can do with their demons?

~Shi'larra
One bold fella breaks from the chain and climbs up on Brinret's chest, grabbing a hold of the tufts of hair on both sides of his head and holding him still! A fat, wet kiss is placed before the monkey disappears
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 118
| author = GAROFALOA
| date = on 06/07/2015 05:58 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Spell Store 2.0 (Suggestion)
}}
hey, spell store is useful for me. especially when I know my favorite sheruvian cleric is lurking. =0
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 119
| author = CAELRIC
| date = on 08/22/2015 07:09 PM PDT
| subject = Haste Duration Change?
}}
I noticed that when I eat haste edibles, the duration is 2 minutes, but when I cast haste, it ends up lasting just over a minute. Is this a change, esp. WRT the haste edibles?

-Taakhooshi, and Me

For the Story of Taakhooshi:
http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Taakhooshi
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 120
| author = GS4-IXIX
| date = on 08/27/2015 06:54 AM PDT
| subject = HSN: ELR - 501 (Sleep) Updated
}}
Sleep, 501, has been updated for the ELR. A seed 1 summation of Elemental Lore, Air provides for a chance for the target to be groggy (-20 AS/DS and 2 second slow) when (or if!) they wake up. The grogginess lasts for 10 seconds.

That is all.

Ixix
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 121
| author = DOUG
| date = on 08/27/2015 06:59 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - 501 (Sleep) Updated
}}
Details on 'the chance' please?

Doug
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 122
| author = GOLDENOAK2
| date = on 08/27/2015 07:04 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - 501 (Sleep) Updated
}}
To be clear on this the seed summation is a percent value 1% per seed rank? And also, I assume its based on ranks, not bonus...but can you clarify that?
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 123
| author = GS4-IXIX
| date = on 08/27/2015 07:07 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - 501 (Sleep) Updated
}}
The percentage chance of the sleeper waking up groggy is the seed 1 summation of the caster's EL:A ranks. You will see messaging that indicates when somebody or something wakes up groggy.

Ixix
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 124
| author = DOUG
| date = on 08/27/2015 07:12 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - 501 (Sleep) Updated
}}
Yes, I got that.

So what we're saying is ''0% base chance'', increasing a percentage point on Seed 1 Summation, to maximum bonus of 24 (perhaps 25) percent.

Accurate?

Doug
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 125
| author = GS4-IXIX
| date = on 08/27/2015 07:38 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - 501 (Sleep) Updated
}}
Yes.

Ixix
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 126
| author = DOUG
| date = on 08/27/2015 07:51 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - 501 (Sleep) Updated
}}
Gratzie a mille!

Doug
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 127
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 08/27/2015 07:58 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - 501 (Sleep) Updated
}}
Can we sleepwalk and talk about random mostly unintelligible babble if we cast Sleep on ourselves? Similar to the babbling you do when you drink too much death rum, but you'll walk around doing it. Like a zombie.

If not, I'll settle for self cast sleep invoking old school Symbol of Dreams as an appropriate consolation.

~ Methais
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 128
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 08/27/2015 08:03 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - 501 (Sleep) Updated
}}
If the target was intoxicated when we put them to sleep can the chance for grogginess be doubled and the result be 'hangover' instead of 'grogginess'? (-20AS/-20DS and subject to stun/rage/fleeing from load noises and bright lights)?

Like this change!

-- Robert

"All wizards are beginners; some of us have just been beginning longer!"
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 129
| author = RROY
| date = on 08/27/2015 10:58 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - 501 (Sleep) Updated
}}
Nice little perk on sleep, thanks!

Just an elf about town...
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 130
| author = DRAFIX
| date = on 08/27/2015 01:45 PM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - 501 (Sleep) Updated
}}
So if I understand correctly,

501 the target, then attack it and it will have additional -20 AS/DS ontop of being offensive, and prone (-50 DS)?
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 131
| author = KRAKII
| date = on 08/27/2015 01:56 PM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - 501 (Sleep) Updated
}}
I think prone/offensive is as good as it ever gets.

After it wakes up/stands up, that's when you'll see the lingering -20 effect, to simulate it still being mildly under the influence.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 132
| author = BLACKKOBOLD
| date = on 08/27/2015 02:10 PM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - 501 (Sleep) Updated
}}
I kinda wish they would reduce the cost and/or the threshold for success. The fact that you need a +130 to put the target to sleep and the variable mana cost makes this a pretty expensive spell for the effect. You're almost always better off just using a spell like ewave or call wind (if you need the stance change).

~Taverkin
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 134
| author = KEITHOBAD
| date = on 08/27/2015 03:23 PM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - 501 (Sleep) Updated
}}
Especially since it's single target compared to those other disablers which will handle the whole room. I'd like to see the mana cost max out at around 5 or 6.

I kinda wish we had this effect when warding between 100-125. As when the spell actually lands, the aftermath is usually pretty swift in my favor. But warding at 110 gets me nowhere.


Also I notice they have no problem making drastic changes downward but all these lore effects thus far seem extremely timid. 10% proc rates to effects that are marginal to begin with. 200 ranks for 20% chance? That's a big meh. You could make it 100% and this effect would still be inferior to our other disable spells.


And this is from someone who kinda likes sleep! I use it when I can because I think it's cool, but it is often an inferior choice.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 135
| author = DRAFIX
| date = on 08/27/2015 03:58 PM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - 501 (Sleep) Updated
}}
lulz once again this is not a spell review... it's lore review.. which means they're trying not to change the spells fundamentals at all. Don't get your hopes up...
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 136
| author = KEITHOBAD
| date = on 08/27/2015 10:31 PM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - 501 (Sleep) Updated
}}
?? I'm not asking for a spell review. But having the lore contribute in a meaningful way seems like that would fit into the realm of ELR. Lore making a spell better is the point right? Froo froo stuff that never makes any difference... I guess I just don't see the point.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 137
| author = KEITHOBAD
| date = on 08/27/2015 10:47 PM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - 501 (Sleep) Updated
}}
Maybe I should pose it as question. If the creature wakes up from sleeping to being stunned in prone (ie: slept, then crit), will the DS be further suppressed by 20?
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 138
| author = GS4-IXIX
| date = on 08/28/2015 06:34 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - 501 (Sleep) Updated
}}
Yes, the grogginess is separate from and can stack with any other status effect type penalties that might be applied to a critter (or you). As long as you see the new messaging, the penalties should be applied and in effect.

Ixix
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 139
| author = RROY
| date = on 08/28/2015 07:35 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - 501 (Sleep) Updated
}}
I'd like to see it have some buff if I'm under hunting a bit. At same level stick with groggy as it is now, but lose 1% for each level above and gain 1% for each level below. Something along those lines along with the Lore perk.

Just an elf about town...
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 140
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 08/28/2015 08:07 AM PDT
| subject = HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!
}}
Hi everybody! (Skip down to == MECHANICS == if you don't want to read my ramblings)

This is not a water lore update, in fact it's not any kind of a lore update! That's right, you heard me. There are NO LORE ADDITIONS in today's spell update, but have no fear, I'm still doing something as watery as I can... So, let's talk Ice Patch. It makes patches of ice (Appropriately named) that make things hilariously fall to the ground so that everyone around can have a good laugh. Humor is great, but let's make it even better! Every once in a while you might find yourself mucking around in a bog, eyeing your destination and thinking to yourself, "If only I could just hop up and walk right over this bog I wouldn't have to get my robes dirty..." Wouldn't that be great?!

Have I got the thing for you!

== MECHANICS ==

The surface of water can now be frozen when Ice Patch is cast, which will mimic the Water Walking (112) spell for that one room. This affect applies to all players as long as the ice patch is in the room (Not just the caster or the caster's group, although keep in mind that ice patches don't last very long once the caster is gone).

Additionally, the targeted version of the spell was updated to instantly deal cold critical damage. The purpose of this is to hopefully make the setup of using Minor Cold less clunky for water mages.

Questions? Comments? Love? Hate? CANDY? All of those things are welcome.

(Note: I'm not going to give a list of rooms that this affects. Try it out and see. If you do find areas that aren't affected by this that you think should be, let me know!)

~ Konacon
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 141
| author = DEANSMITH
| date = on 08/28/2015 08:13 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!
}}
Wow, no lore changes just...better?

Sounds good!
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1412
| author = DOUG
| date = on 01/25/2016 08:23 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>>Spirit Slayer (240) doesn't work with mass effect spells.''

Still learning, even after all this time. I agree, Rishi, that's a ton of mana - and I would have said that it would be more likely not to even take effect (higher level spells are harder for the slayer to recast). But now. . . I don't even have to.

Ok, so - we're back to parity.

''>>I do think comparisons to other pure professions aren't serving anyone's cause here without data backing them up, because the assumptions being made aren't grounded in reality, and thus the GMs aren't being persuaded. (the 1115/519/317 comparison worked because of data)''

And agreed. So far, we have a couple of data points, I'm well above 65% in the Rift with 912 (and against creatures almost all of whom can be higher than 100 levels), and Robert's sharing a comparable picture for Nelemar (exceeding(?) 80% with his chosen tactics.) More data would help, perhaps?

Doug
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1413
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/25/2016 09:56 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>If you don't think 80% is 'reasonable' for disabling the toughest thing in there (for my hunting area) then train differently than I have, use enhancives, or use a different strategy (one of which I laid out in an earlier post).''

As we've stated, enhancives wouldn't help. 519 is also a single target disabler.

240 doesn't help mass effect spells, but 340 does. Regardless, the CS mass disablers can be boosted via 1711, 1612, and stat enhancives to guarantee 100% successful warding margin barring a fumble. The data is there, it just seems that it is being selectively ignored.

If you're personally satisfied being 80% as effective as the other pures, that's great, but don't speak for others with more post-cap experience than you as if they don't know what they are doing.

Just because you choose to ignore the most difficult post-cap creatures does not make it a satisfactory solution as wizards have never had to do so, just like none of the other pures has to still.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1414
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 01/26/2016 03:00 AM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
DESTINY14As we've stated, enhancives wouldn't help.

Every caster can raise their CS by up to 20 from enhancives.

GameMaster Estild
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1415
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/26/2016 04:27 AM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>Every caster can raise their CS by up to 20 from enhancives.''

We're talking about the lack of a mass CS disabler.

But while it's true every caster raise their CS from enhancives, spiritualists can benefit from other CS boosters that elementalists can't (1612 and 340). Also, elemental TDs for creatures are higher across the board to compensate for the existence of 425, while spiritual TDs are not similarly raised to compensate for the existence of 240 and 340.

Put differently, I suppose you can say that spiritualists have a power up, a panic button, and access to reliable mass disablers while wizards, as pure elementalists, do not.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1416
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 01/26/2016 07:04 AM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
Let's recap for a moment here Destiny14:

I explained how I hunted Sentrys and GWEs in the temple.

You didn't have a clear understanding of my hunting strategy using 519 and tried to dismiss it as useless so I clarified.

Still within the context of 519, you then stated that 100% was the only thing reasonable since you felt that all other pures could achieve this (but not wizards).

I then explained (more clearly) how 100% could be achieved using immolation with additional training, enhancives, etc.

You then (incorrectly) stated that enhancives wouldn't help and then introduced that 519 is a single target disabler (which I thought should have been clear and obvious from the initial part of the discussion, but I'm glad you know this now).

You then additionally restated my posts incorrectly by attributing my entire hunting strategy to being 80% as effective as other pures (which is incorrect in a number of ways), and insinuated (incorrectly) that I am speaking for others.

What exactly are you adding to the discussion so far, oh wise one? My commentary has been directly focused on the disabler version of 519-Immolation (a single target disabler spell in case there is still some confusion on this point) and its effectiveness. I'm not completely clear as to what point(s) you are trying to make.

Also, how much post cap experience is required to participate in your part of the discussion going forward?

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1417
| author = DOUG
| date = on 01/26/2016 08:11 AM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>> spiritualists can benefit from other CS boosters that elementalists can't (1612 and 340).''

1612 is self-cast. Are we suggesting that paladins should be added to the list of folks with this ability?

Doug
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1418
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 01/26/2016 10:33 AM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>Well, yeah, kinda. In fact, I'm really struggling with this 'revelation'. I don't profess to be the end-all, be-all empath player, but I don't know of very many capped hunting empaths that would purposefully maximize the CS potential of the minor sphere over the empathic sphere. Maybe I am crazy, but I don't see that happening. Ever. Enhanced or not.''


Since fire lore is mostly useless now outside of 415, I dropped down to 101 fire/101 air and redid my spells from 159/67/77 to 101/101/101 mainly for 415 CS, because it's better than immolate now. My CS is 530 across the board now. Before, MnE was 504, MjE was 557, and wizard I don't remember because what am I gonna do with it, cast Weapon Fire? Before I respecced I could still hit things most of the time with 415. I just had no use for it because Immolate wasn't trash then.

But back to the original point, it's not at all out of the realm of possibility for an off-sphere CS to be on par with your main CS, especially right now for wizards.

~ Methais
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1419
| author = DOUG
| date = on 01/26/2016 10:41 AM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>>for wizards.''

Agree. You did see though, that we were talking about minor spiritual / empath, right? It. Is. NOT. MONDAY!

Doug
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 142
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 08/28/2015 08:21 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!
}}
Is this intentional? The messaging seems contradictory to the ineffectual result.

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Ice Patch...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an imposing fire giant champion.
An airy mist quickly gathers around an imposing fire giant champion.
CS: +554 - TD: +438 + CvA: +25 + d100: +18 == +159
Warding failed!
The mist leaves the entire lower half of an imposing fire giant champion's body encased in a thick block of ice.
... 15 points of damage!
A frosty blow to the neck. Bet that smarts!
[Spell re-prepared]
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>rel''
You feel the magic of your spell rush away from you.
''>inc 904''
An imposing fire giant champion points a flaming hand at you!
An imposing fire giant champion hurls a roaring ball of fire at you!
AS: +419 vs DS: +765 with AvD: +59 + d100 roll: +38 = -249
A clean miss.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1420
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/26/2016 11:17 AM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>1612 is self-cast. Are we suggesting that paladins should be added to the list of folks with this ability?''

208 exists.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1421
| author = DOUG
| date = on 01/26/2016 11:55 AM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>>208 exists.''

It does, you know. . . yes indeed it does!

Is this a technique you regularly employ and are exceedingly familiar with, Destiny?

Doug
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1422
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/26/2016 12:08 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>It does, you know. . . yes indeed it does!''

My point is that a sufficiently trained and equipped post-cap spiritual pure has access to a much wider arsenal of tools and guaranteed, reliable mass diablers and instant kill mechanisms than wizards do.

Via Scroll Infusion and 208, all of the spiritual pures also have access to a much wider circle of outside spells than the average wizard does. So far, we've done nothing but take away from the post-cap wizard to transfer power to the pocket mage who doesn't have to actually hunt much or much that is dangerous. Wizards are now expected to rely more heavily on CS spells and disablers to hunt, yet the tools for wizards are not at all equal or even remotely comparable to what the spiritual pures have at their disposal.

Just because it is not apparent to some how much power the post-cap wizard has lost doesn't mean that those gaps don't exist. They do, and it's untenable. And no, the solution is not to nerf the spiritual pures into the ground either.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1423
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 01/26/2016 12:53 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
The problem at hand, as already stated, is if we cast 410/912 and it doesn't work, we don't know why.

If you cast 135 or whatever and it doesn't affect the target, you know exactly why.

410/912 we have no way to tell if it was a bad roll, a level difference issue, spell training, etc.

Most people see 410/912 as a weak crowd control spell post-cap because it's not only failing a lot, but we have no idea why it's failing or have anything to base any adjustments in training over.

''>Every caster can raise their CS by up to 20 from enhancives. -Estild''

Plus as has already been said, we have 0 options to make our mass disablers better via enhancive items. This isn't the case with CS based disablers.

I think there are to many non-corporeal/crit immune critters at cap in general (crusaders, crawlers and cerebralites which sometimes take crit damage but usually don't, defenders, sentries, everything in the confluence, water elementals in Nelemar, etc. Did I miss anything?)

I don't even see the need for non-corporeal/crit immune critters ever since crit randomization was implemented.

Perhaps someone can enlighten me on why it's necessary to have that many at cap.

~ Methais
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1424
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 01/26/2016 12:56 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>> My point is that a sufficiently trained and equipped post-cap spiritual pure has access to a much wider arsenal of tools and guaranteed, reliable mass diablers and instant kill mechanisms than wizards do.''

Maybe it would be helpful in advancing the conversation if instead of painting with a broad brush we identified which post-cap spiritualists have these arsenals and exactly what it is that is in each of these spiritualists arsenal. I'm not saying that these arsenals don't exist, but as someone who doesn't play a post capped spiritualist I'm not really clear which apples we are comparing here. A lot of the recent examples being thrown around seem more like lemons than apples (e.g. 208) and there's definitely been some misinformation in terms of what spells work with what.

So... our list of spiritualists with reliable arsenals are: Clerics, Empaths, and Sorcerers? What is it that is in each of these aresenals?

For Wizards, I will list the following:

- RapidFire which can be to great effect on a single or multiple target using a range of spells (noted it has a cooldown but it still is a potent weapon when not on cooldown). Arguably more potent then many of the other spells out there.

SINGLE TARGET
- Immolation (disabler version, SINGLE TARGET ONLY) which has a decent duration on a successful ward and seem fairly reliable in my book.
- Sleep: While the duration is fine, I find this spell too limiting as a disabler as it then precludes the use of any ball/area spells.
- Stone Fist (hahahahahaha... moving on. This spell ''could'' be really awesome but definitely needs a complete rework)
- Sandstorm: Too slow to get initial result to count? What if Sandstorm had an initial Call Wind effect on the room up front (but then the sandstorm went for the indicated target)? I'd probably look at using it myself then.

MULTI-TARGET
- Call Wind: I'm just recently experimenting with this spell. It doesnt' seem to have enough oomph without massive Air Lore investment. I seem to recall it is used to good effect against Lich's by some wizards. It's basically EWave with a chance to get an immolation like effect on a single target if you're lucky.
- Ewave: Level based results which makes it 'meh' in the harder areas. Maybe put it to good use when combined with Slow?
- Major Ewave: Not player friendly so sort of off the list in my book.
- Tremors: I haven't used the new version of this spell enough to have a feel for it. Feedback here on the forums seems to indicate it isn't reliable enough?
- Slow: With the enhancements at least it is free to cast (in time) now but still means the critter is going to take actions (just less frequently). Not a great main disabler spell in my book but it does have some uses.

Did I miss anything in the wizard arsenal?

From the list above, I would agree that I find our multi-target tools somewhat lacking (hence the reason why I choose to immolate targets one at a time). It seems to be hinted that over training in wizards might produce noticably more reliable results with Call Wind but I still find the overall effect of this spell uninspiring unless you get the lucky vortex result (which is really only a single target disabler in that regard).

Can someone very familiar with the well-arsenaled spiritualists post something similar for each of those classes? What single and multi-target tools do they have and how effective are they?

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1425
| author = ZENDADA
| date = on 01/26/2016 01:01 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
Did I miss anything in the wizard arsenal?PEREGRINEFALCON

518 Cone of Elements?

Chad, player of a few
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1426
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 01/26/2016 01:10 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>Agree. You did see though, that we were talking about minor spiritual / empath, right? ''

Yes I know. I was responding to this point:

''>I don't profess to be the end-all, be-all empath player, but I don't know of very many capped hunting empaths that would purposefully maximize the CS potential of the minor sphere over the empathic sphere. ''

With a wizard equivalent example.

''>It. Is. NOT. MONDAY!''

The day that Methais graced your village was the most important day of your life. But for me, it was Tuesday.

~ Methais
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1427
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/26/2016 01:14 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>Can someone very familiar with the well-arsenaled spiritualists post something similar for each of those classes? What single and multi-target tools do they have and how effective are they?''

It's been articulated many times and if you choose not to believe them, I doubt anyone is going to sit here and help nerf the spiritual pures into the ground as well.

I'll be happy to drop this conversation when a profession change is allowed, since the current wizard class isn't the type of pure I had chosen to play, nor do I have any desire to play a full-time war mage post-cap.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1428
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 01/26/2016 01:16 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''> 518 Cone of Elements?''

Agree! While I don't consider Cone of Elements as a disabler in the more 'traditional' sense, I do use it to clear the room quickly when there are three or more critters present.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1429
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 01/26/2016 01:30 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>Agree! While I don't consider Cone of Elements as a disabler in the more 'traditional' sense, I do use it to clear the room quickly when there are three or more critters present.''

Doesn't it only hit 3 targets now? I forgot if there was a way to increase it after that got nerfed too.

~ Methais
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 143
| author = LORDKRIP
| date = on 08/28/2015 08:25 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!
}}
Can I walk between the Landing and Teras? I JAYKAY...

I love updates like these the most, oddly. Environmental interaction FTW.



Peace cannot be kept by force; it can only be achieved by understanding. - Albert Einstein
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1430
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 01/26/2016 01:34 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>> Doesn't it only hit 3 targets now? I forgot if there was a way to increase it after that got nerfed too.''

Up to 6 (player friendly)
Up to 12 (not player friendly)

Based on EMC training.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1431
| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 01/26/2016 01:36 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>Doesn't it only hit 3 targets now? ''

5 using evoke. More with EMC.

https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Cone_of_Elements_(518)
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1432
| author = RISHIB1
| date = on 01/26/2016 03:30 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>Destiny14's posts regarding 208''

I'm pretty sure the GMs can probably count the casts of 208 in one day on one hand. Although I should try and see if I can steal Balefire off of a cerebalite...that might be fun to play with.

1711 is really the only accessible CS booster that has duration longer than one cast. 340's a one time boost.

Rishi
- Player of Kembal




Speaking to Plur, Belnia says, "You're no Kembal."


[Roll result: -2112 (open d100: 82)]
A giantman thief crouches and sweeps a leg at you, but only manages to trip himself.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1433
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/26/2016 05:33 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>I'm pretty sure the GMs can probably count the casts of 208 in one day on one hand.''

I bet you'd be wrong.

''>340's a one time boost.''

And not exactly. It's pretty sustainable use. Wizards don't have a one time boost of any kind though.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1434
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 01/26/2016 05:42 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>> >> 340's a one time boost.''

''>> And not exactly. It's pretty sustainable use. Wizards don't have a one time boost of any kind though.''

Is that what you think is needed to address the wizard concerns Destiny14? A one time, high mana, CS booster spell?

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1435
| author = GS4-FINROS
| date = on 01/26/2016 06:10 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>>I'm pretty sure the GMs can probably count the casts of 208 in one day on one hand.''
''>I bet you'd be wrong.''

You two can split the difference.

Today (so far): 16
Yesterday: 19
Two days ago: 0
Three days ago: 1
Four days ago: 3

And so forth. Though it does look like "count on one hand" is more historically true before that. The last two days have been anomalous.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1436
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 01/26/2016 06:18 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>> And not exactly. It's pretty sustainable use. Wizards don't have a one time boost of any kind though.''

And technically... 413-Elemental Saturation provide a CS 'boost' (through reduced TD) that can persist through multiple casts for a fraction of the mana.

Sadly I think the spell implementation is super weak (it shouldn't require a warding check to reduce warding) and I only have 75 ranks in the 400 circle at present so it doesn't help me with my sentry '80% problem' at present.

But suppose for the sake of discussion that I spent my remaining spell ranks training on the 400 circle bringing my Minor Elt. up to 101 ranks.

Now my Minor Elt CS would be 535 (the same as my immolation cast CS). With the -25 penalty the sentry would receive against 413 when I cast it I would basically have a 100% chance to cast this spell on a sentry. With my current EMC training (200 ranks) and Fire Lore training (24 ranks) the sentry would now have a -22 warding penalty against my immolation spell for the next 1000 seconds (if I am reading the spell information correctly). So now my immolation cast is at ~100% chance to strike as well!

A near 100% solution with 2 casts if I decide to train in that direction. And less mana for both spells than the 40 point CS booster.

The additional downside to 413 being that I cannot pre-prep my 'booster' spell. I have to be in the room for both casts vs. other boosters that can be cast in safety (another reason to remove the warding check from 413 in my opinion).

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1437
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/26/2016 06:37 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>And so forth. Though it does look like "count on one hand" is more historically true before that. The last two days have been anomalous''

I'm sure the last two days haven't been anomalous. Perhaps it would be useful to look back before people largely stopped playing their characters altogether for data (pre-SimuCon).

Whether people use it frequently or not, it is an accessible option to those spiritual pure classes. And spiritual TDs aren't balanced to compensate for these extra boosts, nor from 240 or 340, the way that elemental TDs already factor maxed out 425 into the equation.

''>A near 100% solution with 2 casts if I decide to train in that direction. And less mana for both spells than the 40 point CS booster.''

A pushdown is not a booster, particularly when you have to successfully ward the creature to receive the pushdown to begin with. And 340 does not cost 40 mana per use.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1438
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 01/26/2016 06:42 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
I think I read the spell wrong. The sentry would get a -19 ward penalty against my 413 cast due to my EMC training and then would have a -28 warding penalty (-25 plus and additional -3 due to my fire lore training) against my immolation spell. Pretty much the same result in my example but wanted to correct the numbers.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1439
| author = ZENDADA
| date = on 01/26/2016 06:47 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
412 Weapon Deflection with enough Earth Lore looks like a nice mass disabler that virtually has a 100% success rate.

Chad, player of a few
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 144
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 08/28/2015 08:35 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!
}}
''>The surface of water can now be frozen when Ice Patch is cast, which will mimic the Water Walking (112) spell for that one room. This affect applies to all players as long as the ice patch is in the room (Not just the caster or the caster's group, although keep in mind that ice patches don't last very long once the caster is gone).''

Excuse me if I'm missing the obvious, but how exactly does this help when one has to walk INTO the room first to cast the spell, when the purpose behind using water walking is to counteract the environmental effects of the room BEFORE entry? For example, if I'm walking on the EN trail and go through the swamp, this means the wizard will have to be the one to suffer the RT in each swamp room, then cast ice patch for any followers? This seems useless, as everyone in the party will have to wait out the same RT in any case for the wizard to move ahead for each step.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1440
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 01/26/2016 06:48 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>> A pushdown is not a booster, particularly when you have to successfully ward the creature to receive the pushdown to begin with. And 340 does not cost 40 mana per use.''

1) We are in agreement that the spell can be improved! Would the removal of the warding check on the initial cast address your available booster concerns? It would for me.

2) In my case it's pretty much the same if my warding success is 100%, no? +25 for me or -25 for them provides the same result on a single cast. The +25 scenario doesn't require that I identify my target beforehand though, which I would prefer. But in the end, it is still a booster.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1441
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/26/2016 06:50 PM PST
| subject = Pures as utility characters
}}
It seems that the trend in the nerfs has been to preserve pre-cap wizard abilities as utility characters at the cost of losing more than necessary potential power at the post-cap level.

This doesn't exist for any of the other pures, so why is this the case for wizards?

Both clerics and empaths require the character to be present to receive lore-based benefits of group or other-cast 211, 215, 219, 117, 303, 307, and 310. Clerics and empaths obviously need to be present to raise and heal others.

Sorcerers require active hunting to access their ensorcell utility function.

Wizards don't have to be hunted at all to enchant, yet this results in having to pay the price of potential for item destruction and excessive temper times based on the large numbers of pocket enchanters that exist.

Wizards are mainly used as spell bots, as wizard spells have historically been sold off the shelf at nearly every merchant on a much larger scale than any other major spiritual or profession circle spells. Wizards can still be used as Rapid Fire bots outside warcamps without even stepping foot inside or being equivalent level.

Why can't wizard balancing first take into account those who actually play the profession instead of protecting the use of wizard abilities for all other classes?
{{saved post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = GS4-FINROS
| date = on 01/26/2016 06:59 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>I'm sure the last two days haven't been anomalous. Perhaps it would be useful to look back before people largely stopped playing their characters altogether for data (pre-SimuCon).''

Happily, as the one who actually has access to the data, I'm in a position to know what is anomalous and what isn't. The spell tends to be bimodal. It usually gets used less than 10 times per day (frequently less than 5), or gets used 30-40 times per day. Getting used 10-20 times per day is more rare than either of those circumstances. In either case, "handful of times per day" is a quite reasonable estimate.

Just for giggles, the number of casts of 506 is about the same this past week as it was before the changes. And well before potential changes were announced, for that matter.
{{saved post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 01/26/2016 07:03 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
Out of mild curiosity, how many times per day is 413 cast on average vs. the other CS booster spells?

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1444
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/26/2016 07:09 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>1) We are in agreement that the spell can be improved! Would the removal of the warding check on the initial cast address your available booster concerns? It would for me.''

The spell can certainly be improved, but then I worry that it would no longer be considered a "booster" and TDs would be adjusted across the board accordingly since it is a minor circle spell.

''>2) In my case it's pretty much the same if my warding success is 100%, no? +25 for me or -25 for them provides the same result on a single cast. The +25 scenario doesn't require that I identify my target beforehand though, which I would prefer. But in the end, it is still a booster.''

Even if it was still considered just a booster and not a must-have, it's still far more expensive than <6.5 mana per use of 340 for spiritualists. I'm not sure if you are aware that you can get 6+ charges per cast of 340, and that mana can be expended prior to the hunt.

I think we are not speaking on the same page regarding boosters etc and desired effects. To achieve parity in offensive capabilities, all pures need reliable (read: guaranteed at a sufficiently post-cap and enhanced level) crowd control and instant kill mechanisms. That is, effective panic buttons and boosters.

At the end of the day, few people wander into a room of post-cap creatures looking to take on a huge swarm at once. What all the other pures can do, and wizards used to be able to do, is sufficiently contain and finish off a swarm if it happens to emerge in your room of 1 creature before you have to abandon the fight and run off.

Wizards used to be able to kill quickly enough 515 and 0CT such that unexpected swarms aren't issues. Wizards used to be able to rely on 519 to either outright disable or significantly damage, if not outright kill, creatures.

Going back to your point above, 340 is not just a "booster", it is the panic button in combination with 316 or 135. 240 is the offensive combat booster and effectively guarantees an instant kill in combination with 1115 or 317.

Sorcerers have 717 and if all else fails, 720 when the task is to kill or be killed.
{{saved post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = BHTM
| date = on 01/26/2016 07:10 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
I'd be curious to know what the least cast spell in the game is if you have that information? Or maybe the bottom 3.

-Richard/Fjalar.
{{saved post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = DOUG
| date = on 01/26/2016 07:15 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>>The day that Methais graced your village was the most important day of your life. But for me, it was Tuesday.''

Heh. Good cine-ref. Not mainstream, but still kitschy.

And yeah, I know what you did - even agreed. But it undermined the point, thanks. Think Wednesday, next.

Doug
{{saved post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/26/2016 07:16 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>2) In my case it's pretty much the same if my warding success is 100%, no? +25 for me or -25 for them provides the same result on a single cast. The +25 scenario doesn't require that I identify my target beforehand though, which I would prefer. But in the end, it is still a booster.''
No, it is not the same at all. A pushdown is NOT a booster because it has a hard floor of -25. A booster on the other hand, can be stacked with other boosters and create sufficient enough warding margin such that the effects of being warded by a CS spell are dramatically increased. See 240, where the spirit slayer boosts are boosts on top of the boosted/enhanced base caster CS.
{{saved post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1448
| author = GS4-FINROS
| date = on 01/26/2016 07:18 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>Out of mild curiosity, how many times per day is 413 cast on average vs. the other CS booster spells?''

413 is classified as an attack spell rather than a booster. In any case, usually only a few dozen times per day. Of all the attack spells used by wizards (and ignoring 525), 412, 915, and 409 are used by far the least with typically only a handful of casts per day.

Before anyone gets any ideas, I'm not about to launch into a spell-by-spell discussion of what gets used and doesn't get used. And also before anyone asks -- yes, this is also one of the things we consider when looking at spells that may need improvements.
{{saved post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = DOUG
| date = on 01/26/2016 07:19 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>>I think we are not speaking on the same page regarding boosters etc and desired effects. To achieve parity in offensive capabilities, all pures need reliable (read: guaranteed at a sufficiently post-cap and enhanced level) crowd control and instant kill mechanisms. That is, effective panic buttons and boosters.''

While I still don't agree with this, as theory does not equal practice and I'm very disinterested in 100% for shore anything in the lands (which as you noted simply gets adjusted until it's no longer 100% sure), I'm going to stop my responding to the belabored point, and ask a simple question.

What about Time Stop (950)?

Doug
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 145
| author = ERYKK2
| date = on 08/28/2015 08:39 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!
}}
== MECHANICS ==The surface of water can now be frozen when Ice Patch is cast, which will mimic the Water Walking (112) spell for that one room. This affect applies to all players as long as the ice patch is in the room (Not just the caster or the caster's group, although keep in mind that ice patches don't last very long once the caster is gone).Additionally, the targeted version of the spell was updated to instantly deal cold critical damage. The purpose of this is to hopefully make the setup of using Minor Cold less clunky for water mages.Questions? Comments? Love? Hate? CANDY? All of those things are welcome.(Note: I'm not going to give a list of rooms that this affects. Try it out and see. If you do find areas that aren't affected by this that you think should be, let me know!)~ Konacon

How about a self-cast version that mimics 112 for a standard spell duration? With losing haste, this would be a nice addition when walking through swamps. Having to cast it in every single swamp room (On the trail from WL to EN for example) is clunky.
{{saved post
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| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/26/2016 07:23 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>(which as you noted simply gets adjusted until it's no longer 100% sure)''

No, this only happens for elementalists and 425. Creatures are absolutely not balanced around 240 or 340 being used on a regular basis, even though they are. Even if you choose not to hunt or equip/train yourself that way, does not mean the possibility should not exist for wizards as it does for every other pure.
{{saved post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = DOUG
| date = on 01/26/2016 07:24 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
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No.

Do'phion
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 01/26/2016 07:24 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''> I'd be curious to know what the least cast spell in the game is if you have that information? Or maybe the bottom 3.''

Of spells that I classify as something that could be commonly cast, the bottom 3 spells all live in the Empath/Major Spiritual Circles.

~ Konacon
{{saved post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1453
| author = DOUG
| date = on 01/26/2016 07:24 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
And, because I think it's both telling and funny. . .


. . .

. . .

. . .

waiting. . .


Doug
{{saved post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/26/2016 07:25 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>What about Time Stop (950)?''

A 1-3x a day offensive spell of any kind is essentially useless or irrelevant when talking about sustainable combat.

Note that both 1150 and 350 are simply utility spells because a level 50 spell shouldn't impact something you actually have to do on a regular basis, instead of in a true emergency.
{{saved post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = DOUG
| date = on 01/26/2016 07:28 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
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Thank you.

''>>A 1-3x a day offensive spell of any kind is essentially useless or irrelevant when talking about sustainable combat.''

I disagree. If 80% plus of the use cases are covered, that means we need something to deal with less than 20%. And if it does turn out to be 'no mistake, no miss, can't be stepped around', it will be more powerful than anything else available to any pure, in my view.

But, you do raise an excellent point about other high mana sustainable utilities. That might be something worth factoring for, too. Thanks for reminding me.

Doug
{{saved post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = DOUG
| date = on 01/26/2016 07:29 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>>And if it does turn out to be 'no mistake, no miss, can't be stepped around', it will be more powerful than anything else available to any pure, in my view.''

Err. . . let me amend that quickly before someone else points out cleric get out of jail free (while rescuing? NOT) card.

Doug
{{saved post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/26/2016 07:32 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>Err. . . let me amend that quickly before someone else points out cleric get out of jail free (while rescuing? NOT) card.''

Kindly don't forget about that 76-88% effective 716 as illustrated in my other thread. Oh right, both of those are under level 20 spells. Why are we forfeiting our single level 50 spot to achieve the same or lesser functionality as any other pure again?
{{saved post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1459
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/26/2016 07:34 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>Of spells that I classify as something that could be commonly cast, the bottom 3 spells all live in the Empath/Major Spiritual Circles.''

I wonder if this could possibly be because major spiritual spells are among the most protected in the lands and are rarely sold off the shelf like all of the other wizard spells of all circles? Or the fact that herbs and other empath wound cleanup exists to minimize the casting of certain healing spells.

This seems to be yet another case of punishing wizards with excessively punitive nerfs because of the prevalence of pocket mages while doing nothing but protecting and further encouraging the raising of pocket mages at the expense of post-cap power after the nerfing is done.
{{saved post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 146
| author = GOLDENOAK2
| date = on 08/28/2015 08:43 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!
}}
''<>''

I could see it being useful in maelstrom bay if you have the mana and just want to waste it. Personally, swimming would probably be cheaper than recasting every room...but since its a free upgrade its all good. Say, would this mean you could drag a body through some of the watery isolated areas that were undraggable before...Like Maelstrom Bay?

also if it could be a floating iceburg you could ride...Booyah! I have a magic Island...neener neener!

Tell familiar drag island north. Get to work minion!
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1460
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 01/26/2016 07:35 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''> I wonder if this could possibly be because major spiritual spells are among the most protected in the lands and are rarely sold off the shelf like all of the other wizard spells of all circles?''

As much as I would like your reason to be the reason why this is true, it is not. It is because the spells simply aren't used.

''> Or the fact that herbs and other empath wound cleanup exists to minimize the casting of certain healing spells.''

Empathic healing spells are not anywhere near the bottom 3.

~ Konacon
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1461
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 01/26/2016 07:51 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>> I think we are not speaking on the same page regarding boosters etc and desired effects. To achieve parity in offensive capabilities, all pures need reliable (read: guaranteed at a sufficiently post-cap and enhanced level) crowd control and instant kill mechanisms. That is, effective panic buttons and boosters.''

Okay. At least I see where some of the perspective difference are. Thanks for clarifying!

I guess where we disagree is that I see the current implementation of RapidFire as a panic button and booster where I guess you see it as... something else? That doesn't mean there isn't opportunity for improvement here though. Looking back at the list of group disablers I posted I would happily drop most of our group disablers in exchange for something with a bit more kick.

''>> Wizards used to be able to rely on 519 to either outright disable or significantly damage, if not outright kill, creatures.''

As someone who used immolation as a staple disabler spell prior to the changes, I honestly feel the spell is still able to disable effectively even with the reduced chance to kill. Agreed that it isn't what it once was as a primary hunting / killing spell.

So I think we all agree there are opportunities for improvement / enhancement of wizards at this point. A lot was taken away with very little given back. Two main hunting styles were pretty much trashed without any significant improvements or benefits to offset this. I'm disappointed on many levels as well even though I'm trying to keep an open mind about the changes. That said, let's identify what is working, what isn't working, and see what we can do to improve things. I think it is important that we are both accurate and specific in what we are saying isn't working if we expect to see any improvements made though.

And point taken on 340, I read up on the spell after you posted it didn't take 40 mana per use.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."
{{saved post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1462
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/26/2016 07:58 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>So I think we all agree there are opportunities for improvement / enhancement of wizards at this point. A lot was taken away with very little given back. Two main hunting styles were pretty much trashed without any significant improvements or benefits to offset this. I'm disappointed on many levels as well even though I'm trying to keep an open mind about the changes.''

I agree with all of this. Particularly, the emphasis should be on preserving power ceilings at the post-cap level as much as possible, as is still the case with every other pure class, before protecting all the pocket mages and enchanters who don't even have to hunt anything dangerous to get by. When someone has 13m+ exp, they should be supremely powerful, not simply marginally more so than the 7.5m exp freshly capped or overtrained level 90 wizard.

The 515 cooldown, in particular, needs to be revisited at the post-cap and enhanced level. It's a severe nerf from the first nerf.

Please make the profession fun to play again at the post-cap level and not a more fun combat strategy to 515 some other pure and watch them demolish the room with cheaper and more effective spells instead.
{{saved post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1463
| author = PFLATS
| date = on 01/26/2016 08:02 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>Of spells that I classify as something that could be commonly cast, the bottom 3 spells all live in the Empath/Major Spiritual Circles.''

Oooh, I like this game.

Hmmm, I'm gonna go with:

Cry for Help (1116)
Frenzy (216)
and uh...
Single target Interference (212)

''>Or the fact that herbs and other empath wound cleanup exists to minimize the casting of certain healing spells.''
I can't think of the last time my empath got a cleanup. They're harder to come by these days unless you're fastidious about stopping Troll's Blood when you come back to town.
{{saved post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/26/2016 08:07 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>Empathic healing spells are not anywhere near the bottom 3.''

This is probably a fruitless discussion, but I would guess the lack of usage of many spells in other profession circles is due to the fact that the other 3 pures still rely on a handful of super boosted and enhanced CS spells to get the instant kill done. Most people hunt as quickly as possible.

The problem is that now wizards have been given more "flavor", yet all of the combined options still don't result in as effective a kill or hunt as any of the other pures can achieve at the post-cap level due to the limitations of attrition-based bolting vs. what excessive warding margin can achieve. The power disparity is now significant, while pre-nerf wizards used to be able to more or less accomplish the same thing in different ways.
{{saved post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = AMMINAR
| date = on 01/26/2016 08:10 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
Cry for Help (1116)Frenzy (216)and uh...Single target Interference (212)

Those were my guesses, too! Although personally I use 212 more often than 217 (which is still not very often at all).

But I'm very surprised 330 didn't make the bottom 3.
{{saved post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1466
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/26/2016 08:11 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
Again, the fact that many post-cap wizards see war maging as the least punitive option left to us is discouraging. The fact is, effective CS spells can be controlled, trained for, and enhanced to guarantee success for all other pures. Likewise, aimed shots are something that can be trained and controlled.

Random, attrition-based bolts and maneuver-based disablers both rely far too heavily on luck to be satisfactory to me post-cap. A post-cap wizard should have more control than ever over the effectiveness of their bolts and disablers, not still have to hope and pray, while none of the other pures has to do that for anything barring a fumble.
{{saved post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1467
| author = ROLFARD
| date = on 01/26/2016 08:27 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
Untrammel, living spell, and empathy?
{{saved post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1468
| author = DOUG
| date = on 01/26/2016 09:16 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>>Please make the profession fun to play again at the post-cap level and not a more fun combat strategy to 515 some other pure and watch them demolish the room with cheaper and more effective spells instead.''

While I don't agree with some of what I'm going to call (rightly or no) anecdotal information sharing - in particular the warmage is the least punitive post-cap path as declared by the masses of wizards (well post-cap, I can and do use either quite well, thank you) - I will say this:

I do absolutely agree with the motive behind the quoted plea. Fun is and should be one of the more enduring traits we should aspire to, at all levels.

Doug
{{saved post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1469
| author = DOUG
| date = on 01/26/2016 09:19 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
I'ma roll with

1) Untrammel,
2) Darkness (safe bet to freebie here)
3) Cry for Help

Doug
{{saved post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 147
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 08/28/2015 08:43 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!
}}
I'm pretty sure you suffer the effects when trying to leave the room. So you can enter each room, cast the spell, then move on to the next room without suffering the effects.

-- Robert

"All wizards are beginners; some of us have just been beginning longer!"
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1471
| author = FIREPHOENIX
| date = on 01/26/2016 10:12 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
Uhm. It's an escape/emergency button, like you've posted and asked for or stated didn't exist.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1472
| author = BLACKKOBOLD2
| date = on 01/27/2016 06:13 AM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
I won't argue with you if you feel that rapid fire and immolate were overpowered. But your desire to see wizards get their comeuppance shouldn't override your ability to reason. You know this game has poor balance. It always has. Don't blame players and wish for other classes to receive poor balancing decisions that detract from the overall product. It's self-destructive.

The fact is they took what was previously a hunting staple and apparently turned it into an "emergency disabler" - of which we actually have many, last I checked? I don't see that immolate currently serves any purpose at all. If I wanted to knock something down and prevent it from attacking I can do that to everything in the area for less mana using any number of spells available to the wizard class. We didn't need a disabler. We did need a hunting staple to give me something other than firing off one bolt after another endlessly.

There must exist a balance between "so overpowered you never use anything else" and "so weak and costly that you never really use it." We're really starting to accumulate in that latter category!

~Taverkin
{{saved post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1473
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 01/27/2016 09:43 AM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>Heh. Good cine-ref. Not mainstream, but still kitschy''

WAT

https://youtu.be/GlhOUyy4wbs
{{saved post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = RISHIB1
| date = on 01/27/2016 10:45 AM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
1) Cry for Help
2) Empathic Link (so infrequently used that everyone forgot it exists!)
3) Frenzy

Doug, Untrammel is a staple defensive spell that is casted in mana spellup if you have the requisite lore now. :) (dispel fodder)

I don't know that the comparisons to other pures are helping any here, except maybe the request for a one-time CS booster and/or Saturation no longer requiring a warding check?

Rishi
- Player of Kembal



Speaking to Plur, Belnia says, "You're no Kembal."


[Roll result: -2112 (open d100: 82)]
A giantman thief crouches and sweeps a leg at you, but only manages to trip himself.
{{saved post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1475
| author = PFLATS
| date = on 01/27/2016 02:20 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
I had Empathic Link on my list instead of Interference for a while, but it's such a cool (if frustrating to use) spell that I figure someone out there has to be using it to hunt. Right? Maybe?
{{saved post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1476
| author = DRAFIX
| date = on 01/27/2016 03:30 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
So, wonderful mechanics implementation team, now that all the complaints and the mood has died down to a dull grumble, has there been any consideration to adding evoke version of 515?
Giving wizards the the 0 cast RT proc version when evoked, so that they can take advantage of the lore effects for non channeled spells (which is a lot of them).
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| date = on 01/28/2016 08:43 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
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I'd rather get a 1 second cast time, but with no cool down for 515. I also believe that 515 should be self cast. Why is wasn't to begin with is the mystery....
{{saved post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 01/28/2016 09:17 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
I'll never understand any spell that isn't imbeddable but still castable on other players without requiring the caster to be present for it to stick.

If RF were to be made self cast though, I think it should only apply to combat spells. There's no harm in rapid fire utility spells being used by other classes.

~ Methais
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = DOUG
| date = on 01/28/2016 10:38 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
''>>I'll never understand any spell that isn't imbeddable but still castable on other players without requiring the caster to be present for it to stick.''

Be careful what you ask for. There are quite a few that work beneficially this way. Let's not make it worse.

Doug
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| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 148
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 08/28/2015 08:44 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!
}}
''> Is this intentional? The messaging seems contradictory to the ineffectual result.''

This is a fair point. The messaging "The mist leaves the entire lower half of an imposing fire giant champion's body encased in a thick block of ice." is indicating the root effect being applied to the target and is completely separate from the damage that the spell does. Do you think it should be messaged after the damage rather than before to read better?

~ Konacon
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1480
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/28/2016 10:44 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
''>Be careful what you ask for. There are quite a few that work beneficially this way. Let's not make it worse.''

Actually, there are none that are imbeddable but can be other-cast without lore excluding bard songs, which work differently altogether.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1481
| author = FIREPHOENIX
| date = on 01/28/2016 03:05 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
Yeah Rapid fire should be self cast. Give some of that back to Wizards. It seems like a no brainer.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1482
| author = SHAYD11
| date = on 01/28/2016 03:10 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
I agree with this too, like someone else posted Im not sure why it wasnt self cast from the beginning.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1483
| author = ROLFARD
| date = on 01/30/2016 11:29 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
Alright after spending some time hunting on my mage I am absolutely furious at how he's still faster than my sorcerer but not quite nearly as amazingly as fast as he once was. I demand we get our 0 rt back when casting bolts as it is the most tedious thing having any round time at all when casting spells. Can we seriously not get back to 0 rt at some other cost? I will offer meteor shower as an offering.

Secondly (because I know there's no way we're ever getting back to 0 rt) can we consider the 'flare' on 515 an extension on the uptime (since we just recently lost the ability to use enhancives to reduce cooldown as far as we initially could)? In a swarm you can keep it up because you'll have that chance for it to flare but as soon as the swarm ends, the duration will be able to catch up. Noone wants to see rapidfire fall in the midst of a crowd it was designed for.

Thirdly, this is working as intended (and look how neat it all works together!) but if we aren't going to change it to something else it would be nice if it happened more often or reliably:

501
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Sleep...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a triton combatant.
CS: +494 - TD: +390 + CvA: +20 + d100: +80 == +204
Warding failed!
A triton combatant's eyes roll up into her head as she slumps to the ground.
Cast Roundtime 1 Second.
''>stance off''
You are now in an offensive stance.
''>prep 510''
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Hurl Boulder...
Your spell is ready.
''>''
Your disk arrives, following you dutifully.
''>''
A triton combatant breathes quietly in her sleep, her small nostrils flaring periodically.
''>ch comb''
You channel at a triton combatant.
A triton combatant is awakened by your attack!
You hurl a large boulder at a triton combatant!
AS: +478 vs DS: +232 with AvD: +22 + d100 roll: +53 = +321
... and hit for 148 points of damage!
Hard strike removes the right eye and a goodly bit of skull!
The triton combatant gurgles once and goes still, a wrathful look on her face.

Necrotic energy from your runestaff overflows into you!

You feel energized!
Cast Roundtime 1 Second.
Roundtime: 3 sec.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1485
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 01/30/2016 01:53 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
Crusaders
Crawlers
Cerebralites
Soul siphons
Liches
Sentries
Water elementals
Fetish masters (unsure)
Sentries

These are some of the capped critters that that won't work on, either because they can't be slept and/or don't crit. Crawlers and cerebralites usually don't crit, cerebralites can't be slept. The rest it never works on.

I would list defenders too, but Nelemar 3rd floor is basically a level 100 kobold village, and OTF isn't a post cap area.

But...1 vs 1 fights were never really the topic in the first place.

~ Methais
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1486
| author = ROLFARD
| date = on 01/30/2016 02:37 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
I would really like rapidfire to refresh on flare (like bubble flares refresh) so you can attempt to hold out against a big swarm but will lose the rapidfire when the fight slows.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1487
| author = BLACKKOBOLD2
| date = on 01/30/2016 02:45 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
InteresTing idea.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1488
| author = PCOFFEY77
| date = on 01/30/2016 03:09 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
''>I would really like rapidfire to refresh on flare (like bubble flares refresh) so you can attempt to hold out against a big swarm but will lose the rapidfire when the fight slows.''

Definitely would be nice to have something to handle the swarming which tends to happen quite often at/near capped. All I can do right now is basically run or die. Even the 1 second RT makes all the difference in that life or death so the nerf does hurt, but I can also learn to deal with it and am learning slowly.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1489
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 02/05/2016 11:49 AM PST
| subject = 506-Celerity
}}
I couldn't find the original thread to attach this too (seems like it should be in this folder though).

Does it make sense that alchemy grinding should be moved under the purview of 506-Celerity vs. 535-Haste? Thought I read somewhere that Celerity was for non-combat, thoughtful and deliberate actions which alchemy grinding seems to fall under. Today 535-Haste is what makes alchemy grinding faster.

Also, I have not tested this yet, but what about guild repetition tasks? I'm really dreading trying to complete x amount of repetitions in 60 seconds if Celerity doesn't help out with this. I recall that old haste used to be the ''only'' way to complete these tasks in the past (short of winning the lottery).

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 149
| author = GOLDENOAK2
| date = on 08/28/2015 08:46 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!
}}
This is a fair point. The messaging "The mist leaves the entire lower half of an imposing fire giant champion's body encased in a thick block of ice." is indicating the root effect being applied to the target and is completely separate from the damage that the spell does. Do you think it should be messaged after the damage rather than before to read better?

~ Konacon>>

Might be better if you indicate something like additional shards of ice erupt from the ground striking ... for x damage.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1490
| author = OBSERVER
| date = on 02/05/2016 11:55 AM PST
| subject = Re: 506-Celerity
}}
''>Also, I have not tested this yet, but what about guild repetition tasks? I'm really dreading trying to complete x amount of repetitions in 60 seconds if Celerity doesn't help out with this. I recall that old haste used to be the only way to complete these tasks in the past (short of winning the lottery).-- Robert''

I also remember a time where I wouldn't attempt illusions work and the like without the Haste spell available. This definitely seems to be something to consider.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1491
| author = DRAFIX
| date = on 02/05/2016 11:58 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
Definitely would be nice to have something to handle the swarming which tends to happen quite often at/near capped. All I can do right now is basically run or die. Even the 1 second RT makes all the difference in that life or death so the nerf does hurt, but I can also learn to deal with it and am learning slowly.

Big swarm? 410. 518. ... 518 518 518 518.. done.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1492
| author = DOUG
| date = on 02/05/2016 12:03 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
I'm sure you can take out a big swarm in less than 100 mana, Draf.

Doug
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1493
| author = BLACKKOBOLD2
| date = on 02/05/2016 01:47 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
''

It's hard to beat cone for taking out swarms. Although, at cap that plan often falls a bit short. Try that in a room with a lich, a destroyer, a cerebralite, a fetish master, and a soul siphon. The destroyer is immune to 410, the master and lich will likely fall down, but due to their runestaff DS your cone of elements will miss. So you'll obliterate the soul siphon and cerebralite, but the destroyer will just keep tackling and forcing you into offensive and the lich and master are probably waiting out the remainder of a fairly short RT from e-wave before they unleash spikethorn and major e-wave on you.

Better to lead with call wind and then cone. The cone will stun the cerebralite and siphon regardless, even though call wind will likely miss the siphon. You should be able to hit the lich/master with the cone due to the stance-forcing effect of call wind. If the destroyer tackles you at this point, at least you have some time before the lich and master can cast. That assumes that the lich doesn't EBP or 540 the cone (probably happens nearly 1/3 of the time!) and that the initial cast of call wind hits. If you do miss, your best bet is to bail out before you get dead. Standing in front of liches and trusting to luck rarely works out in your favor!

Of course, you know how to hunt the scatter. I'm only illustrating the point that handling swarms as a wizard isn't always as simple as all that. Since wizards were poorly compensated defensively, it's more important than ever that we minimize the number of combat rolls we leave to chance. In the example above, leading with ewave rather than call wind presents a great deal more risk. Knowing which spell to use and when will make hunting go a lot more smoothly.

I would also remind wizards of the new tremor TAP/STOMP mechanics. Think about where a 0 RT knockdown could play well with your usual strategies. You should be able to find frequent use for this effect.

~Taverkin
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1494
| author = OBSERVER
| date = on 02/05/2016 04:36 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
I've said it before, but I don't understand why Haste was nerfed after splitting it in half and moving part of it from a level 6 slot to a level 35 spell slot. As Taverkin said, nothing else was given to compensate for the reduced effectiveness of the defensive benefit of Haste, let alone the hit to BOTH Immolate and Rapid Fire. Instead, Wizards lost a 35th level spell slot and had a drastically reduced floor on their defensive combat RT.

That seems a bit punitive.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1495
| author = BLACKKOBOLD2
| date = on 02/05/2016 08:08 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
''

''

I wonder if it's coincidence all of the things I've been using the heck out of (rapid fire, haste, enhancives) are all getting the nerf bat? It's almost like someone was listening, but decided to shoot the messenger for having too much fun!

~Taverkin
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1496
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 02/05/2016 08:28 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
''>> As Taverkin said, nothing else was given to compensate for the reduced effectiveness of the defensive benefit of Haste,''

It does stack for four hours now vs. having a 60 second non-refreshable duration.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1497
| author = THROGG
| date = on 02/05/2016 09:51 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
''>>It does stack for four hours now vs. having a 60 second non-refreshable duration.<< ''
For 35 mana a shot it had better stack; it should also sing "America the Beautiful" while tap dancing with a top hat and cane.
I was pretty much perma hasted with the old spell. I had a script that every 45 seconds would "stop 506\rincant 506\r".
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1498
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 02/06/2016 05:18 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
''>> For 35 mana a shot it had better stack; it should also sing "America the Beautiful" while tap dancing with a top hat and cane. ''

How about "Elanthia the Beautiful" instead? :p

''>> I was pretty much perma hasted with the old spell. I had a script that every 45 seconds would "stop 506\rincant 506\r". ''

So before you were spending 80 mana every 10 minutes during your hunt and now you are spending 35 mana while sitting around in town for somewhere between 20 minutes to nearly 2 hours of haste (mileage will vary by training) yet you seem incredulous at the mana cost? This doesn't seem to be a very compelling argument for change or for the addition of a musical score as you have suggested.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1499
| author = OBSERVER
| date = on 02/06/2016 06:24 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
''>This doesn't seem to be a very compelling argument for change or for the addition of a musical score as you have suggested.''

Yeah, we should probably stick to the fact that the old haste was mechanically superior and didn't take up 2 spell slots, one of them being 35th level. That, and everyone else getting a free bastardized version of Haste in the form of Quickstrike.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 150
| author = LORDKRIP
| date = on 08/28/2015 08:47 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!
}}
Maybe it just shouldn't do anything more than effect the legs/abdomen/back with the ice critical damage...

I am curious what happens if the ice critical happens to cause a crit that comes with knockdown, but the ice encasing it... mindsplosion





Peace cannot be kept by force; it can only be achieved by understanding. - Albert Einstein
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1500
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 02/06/2016 07:03 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
''>> Yeah, we should probably stick to the fact that the old haste was mechanically superior and didn't take up 2 spell slots, one of them being 35th level.''

Agreed. As well as acknowledging all of the changes (the good and the bad) and making logical arguments for why additional changes are needed.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1501
| author = OBSERVER
| date = on 02/06/2016 08:46 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
The logic has been pretty well spelled out in this case. People can keep hammering the point home, but beyond that, pointing at the obvious with both hands instead of one doesn't seem to be making much of a difference.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1502
| author = DOUG
| date = on 02/06/2016 09:56 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
''>>doesn't seem to be making much of a difference''

We don't know that, for all we know the GMs might be trying to get through this festival and then plan to take a look.

Despite my dissatisfaction with a couple of things that have occurred, I'm still fairly sure that:

1) There was a plan;
2) That plan was adjusted;
3) Feedback is still being considered, and;
4) We haven't exactly covered ourselves in glory encouraging real-time conscious-stream thought sharing.

So, we wait.

Doug
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1503
| author = OBSERVER
| date = on 02/06/2016 10:08 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
I don't think trying to stifle conversation is the way to go either, but hey, everyone's entitled to their opinion. Some just appear to be trying to stop others from sharing theirs.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1504
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 02/06/2016 10:09 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
''> 4) We haven't exactly covered ourselves in glory encouraging real-time conscious-stream thought sharing.''

I can only speak for myself, but I can say that I am not avoiding interaction because of any anger/irritation/frustration that might be directed towards me if I were to interact. I am more than willing to receive criticism regardless of how harsh it might be.

I'm not interacting because:
1) The stuff that I'm working on right now isn't ready to share.
2) A lot of the things being discussed right now aren't things that can be easily commented on. Questions like "What are your plans?", "Is this going to change?", and "Don't you agree this is broken?" aren't things I can discuss.

All I can do is assure you that I'm reading everything that is being said.

~ Konacon
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1505
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 02/06/2016 10:12 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
''>> I am more than willing to receive criticism regardless of how harsh it might be.''

You really should water your lawn more.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1506
| author = ZENDADA
| date = on 02/06/2016 10:24 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
''>> I am more than willing to receive criticism regardless of how harsh it might be.''

You water your lawn too often.

Chad, player of a few
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1507
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 02/06/2016 10:24 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
''>All I can do is assure you that I'm reading everything that is being said.''

Thank you for this acknowledgment.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1508
| author = BLACKKOBOLD2
| date = on 02/06/2016 10:35 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
''

Pro Tip: While releasing specifics far in advance isn't recommended, popping in to let us know that you are planning to address an issue in the near future is advised - we call that "communication." In the absence of communication, expect players to assume whatever they like. And good luck with that!

I get that nobody wants to admit when their pet project doesn't receive quite the warm welcome they were hoping for. But the feeling I get from the little communication we have received is that the devs feel the ELR was a success and the complaints are from a vocal minority with a penchant for hyperbole. If that isn't the message you intended to convey, perhaps stopping in and discussing where we're going next would be prudent at this point? I know I can't be the only one left wondering: Is this it?

~Taverkin
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1509
| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 02/06/2016 10:40 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
''>I get that nobody wants to admit when their pet project doesn't receive quite the warm welcome they were hoping for. ''

I think he's still a little hurt over the reception of exploding animates :) I wouldn't call the 506/515 changes a pet project for the staff, it was in the works for a long time and was likely handed down from above.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 151
| author = DEANSMITH
| date = on 08/28/2015 08:48 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!
}}
''>Do you think it should be messaged after the damage rather than before to read better?''

Yes, that would definitely read better.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1510
| author = DOUG
| date = on 02/06/2016 10:41 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
''>> If that isn't the message you intended to convey, perhaps stopping in and discussing where we're going next would be prudent at this point?''

I think one did, Tav. In fact, I deleted a couple of responses because they served no purpose after the lawn-watering debate.

You did see it, right?
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1511
| author = BLACKKOBOLD2
| date = on 02/06/2016 10:48 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
''
''<1) The stuff that I'm working on right now isn't ready to share.''
''<2) A lot of the things being discussed right now aren't things that can be easily commented on. Questions like "What are your plans?", "Is this going to change?", and "Don't you agree this is

While I can certainly understand the tough position you find yourself in, I'm afraid I must remain unreasonable: I'm looking for acknowledgment of the issues we're discussing here and a commitment to addressing them.

~Taverkin
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1512
| author = DOUG
| date = on 02/06/2016 10:54 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
''>>I don't think trying to stifle conversation is the way to go either''

I respect that opinion, and hold it dearly myself.

''>>So, we wait.''

A statement of fact - unless your opinion is we're not waiting to hear more?

''>>Some just appear to be trying to stop others from sharing theirs. ''

Indeed.

Doug
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1513
| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 02/06/2016 10:54 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
''>I'm afraid I must remain unreasonable: I'm looking for acknowledgment of the issues we're discussing here and a commitment to addressing them.''


... seriously?
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1514
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 02/06/2016 11:02 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
''>While I can certainly understand the tough position you find yourself in, I'm afraid I must remain unreasonable: I'm looking for acknowledgment of the issues we're discussing here and a commitment to addressing them.''

This line is unproductive at this point given it's been explicitly stated that these things cannot be discussed under the terms of their NDA, which I respect. Even though I think whoever included such onerous restrictions doesn't understand the impact of poor communication on player morale and customer retention, I don't blame the GMs for it. That blame lies solely with Simu management.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1515
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 02/06/2016 11:07 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
''>>> I am more than willing to receive criticism regardless of how harsh it might be.''

You should water your lawn with Brawndo.

~ Methais
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1516
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 02/06/2016 11:13 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
I have changed my opinion based on Methais persuasive counterpoint.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tbxq0IDqD04

You really should water your lawn more ''with Brawndo''.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1517
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 02/06/2016 12:30 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
''> While I can certainly understand the tough position you find yourself in, I'm afraid I must remain unreasonable: I'm looking for acknowledgment of the issues we're discussing here and a commitment to addressing them.''

I understand your point, but unfortunately I can't help you out with what you're looking for right now.

~ Konacon
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1518
| author = BLACKKOBOLD2
| date = on 02/06/2016 03:08 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
''

I know. Like I said, I must remain unreasonable. It's not a position I enjoy taking. Frankly, I'd rather be playing GS. But I'm just too disappointed in the current state of the only class I play to justify paying or playing.

I'll hang out for a bit longer and keep an eye on the forums in case something changes. And in the mean time, back to guild wars and other games. If I do come back, it'll be with some fresh game design perspectives. Based on the ELR, I think you guys could use some.

~Taverkin
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1519
| author = CAPTAINVIOLETBEARD
| date = on 02/06/2016 07:17 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
I'm so excited to see the awesome new wizard class that I cancelled my wizard account and am waiting eagerly for it as well (probobly for a few years).
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 152
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 08/28/2015 08:48 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!
}}
I wonder if this would mitigate the environmental hazards around Teras where you occasionally slip through the crust on the lava flows...

''>> also if it could be a floating iceburg you could ride...Booyah! I have a magic Island...neener neener!''

And yeah, creating a floating iceburg that you could sail/row you and your group across the bay would be super awesome. Make it so Konacon!

-- Robert

"All wizards are beginners; some of us have just been beginning longer!"
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1520
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 02/07/2016 09:09 PM PST
| subject = Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!
}}
The focusing effect does not ramp up correctly on misses due to the barrier effect of 401/406/414:

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Hurl Boulder...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a glistening cerebralite.
You hurl a large boulder at a glistening cerebralite!
A heavy barrier of stone momentarily forms around a glistening cerebralite and blocks the attack!
Cast Roundtime 1 Second.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1521
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 02/09/2016 12:12 PM PST
| subject = Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!
}}
''>The focusing effect does not ramp up correctly on misses due to the barrier effect of 401/406/414''

This issue has happened at least 3 times, though I'm not sure if it's a cerebralite specific issue. If the barrier flares on the 2nd bolt cast, the third only has the focusing effect of the 2nd cast applied.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1522
| author = PC1234
| date = on 02/10/2016 12:56 AM PST
| subject = 513 Bug
}}
The character was fighting a single horned vor'taz, no other horned vor'taz entered the room during that time. Please notice how the AS Bonus from 513 was at the maximum, disappeared, and then reappeared.

(You should also notice how 2/4 of the channeled bolt spells hit the hands, and the damage in general is very poor.)


You hurl a hissing stream of acid at a horned vor'taz!
AS: +316 vs DS: +224 with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +45 = +166
... and hit for 24 points of damage!
Acid gets on the right hand raising some large blisters.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
Roundtime: 3 sec.
R>
The swarm assaults you from all sides, its droning creating a noisy distraction.
R>
''>incant 904''
Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Acid...
Your spell is ready.
You channel at a horned vor'taz.
You hurl a hissing stream of acid at a horned vor'taz!
AS: +301 vs DS: +224 with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +13 = +119
... and hit for 6 points of damage!
Acid splattered on the horned vor'taz's chest! Might leave a stain!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
Roundtime: 3 sec.
R>
A horned vor'taz horn glows bright, and he motions to you!
You hear strange noises come from behind and to either side of you.
R>
''>incant 904''
Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Acid...
Your spell is ready.
You channel at a horned vor'taz.
You hurl a hissing stream of acid at a horned vor'taz!
AS: +301 vs DS: +221 with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +5 = +114
... and hit for 4 points of damage!
Splash to the hand hardly touches the horned vor'taz.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
Roundtime: 3 sec.
R>
The swarm darts forward and quickly retreats, drawing your attention.
R>
A horned vor'taz charges at you!
AS: +284 vs DS: +275 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +48 = +83
A clean miss.
R>
''>incant 904''
Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Acid...
Your spell is ready.
You channel at a horned vor'taz.
You hurl a hissing stream of acid at a horned vor'taz!
AS: +316 vs DS: +217 with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +58 = +186
... and hit for 37 points of damage!
Acid gets in eye. An unscheduled flush!
The horned vor'taz is stunned!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
Roundtime: 3 sec.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1523
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 02/10/2016 01:01 AM PST
| subject = Re: 513 Bug
}}
The focusing effect also does not ramp up on misses from the 414 barrier flaring or on wall of thorns. So something about magical attacks seems to be preventing it from working correctly.

Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Water...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a Grimswarm troll hunter.
The thorny barrier surrounding the troll hunter blocks your attack!
Cast Roundtime 1 Second.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1524
| author = CAVEMANIAC
| date = on 02/10/2016 02:03 AM PST
| subject = Re: 513 Bug
}}
Call swarm might be the cause here. It has various status effects that are controlled by stance initially and occur randomly afterwards(Knockdown, damage, -AS, -DS, poison/disease, RT). Directly before the AS loss you were hit by this attack:

''>The swarm assaults you from all sides, its droning creating a noisy distraction.''

Your AS returned when the swarm switched to another attack:

''>The swarm darts forward and quickly retreats, drawing your attention.''

You didn't post what your DS was at the beginning of the encounter but I would bet your DS was lowered after the last attack
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1525
| author = PC1234
| date = on 02/10/2016 02:26 AM PST
| subject = 535 Bug
}}
I was at 17 ranks of EL:A, I then trained EL:A to 20 ranks, and now 535 clashes with itself.


''>spell active''

You currently have the following active spells:
Spirit Warding I ................... 0:06:57
Spirit Warding II .................. 0:07:00
Elemental Defense I ................ 3:22:00
Elemental Defense II ............... 2:54:18
Elemental Defense III .............. 2:54:18
Elemental Targeting ................ 0:39:18
Elemental Barrier .................. 0:39:18
Thurfel's Ward ..................... 2:49:18
Elemental Deflection ............... 1:09:18
Elemental Bias ..................... 1:09:18
Strength ........................... 2:49:18
Elemental Focus .................... 1:09:18
Stone Skin ......................... 1:09:18
Haste .............................. 0:09:18
Temporal Reversion ................. 1:09:18
Natural Colors ..................... 2:38:38
Resist Elements .................... 0:14:04
Mobility ........................... 0:14:07
Prismatic Guard .................... 0:48:49
Mass Blur .......................... 0:50:18
Melgorehn's Aura ................... 0:50:18


''>incant 535''
J>
You recite a series of mystical phrases while raising your hands, invoking Haste...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture.
Your magic clashes with that which is already there!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
J>
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1526
| author = PC1234
| date = on 02/10/2016 02:29 AM PST
| subject = Re: 513 Bug
}}
Call swarm might be the cause here. It has various status effects that are controlled by stance initially and occur randomly afterwards(Knockdown, damage, -AS, -DS, poison/disease, RT). Directly before the AS loss you were hit by this attack:''>The swarm assaults you from all sides, its droning creating a noisy distraction.''Your AS returned when the swarm switched to another attack:''>The swarm darts forward and quickly retreats, drawing your attention.''You didn't post what your DS was at the beginning of the encounter but I would bet your DS was lowered after the last attack

This may have been the problem, thanks for pointing that out. I wasn't aware they can do that.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1527
| author = ZENDADA
| date = on 02/10/2016 03:41 AM PST
| subject = Re: 535 Bug
}}
Was it running before you trained then you tried to cast after? My guess is that is what is causing that to happen. Try stopping 535 and recasting.

Chad, player of a few
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1528
| author = PC1234
| date = on 02/10/2016 04:26 AM PST
| subject = Re: 535 Bug
}}
Was it running before you trained then you tried to cast after? My guess is that is what is causing that to happen. Try stopping 535 and recasting.Chad, player of a few

It was, and I did, but it probably still shouldn't happen.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1529
| author = GS4-FINROS
| date = on 02/10/2016 07:36 PM PST
| subject = Re: 535 Bug
}}
''>I was at 17 ranks of EL:A, I then trained EL:A to 20 ranks, and now 535 clashes with itself.''

Magnitude mismatch. The spell doesn't "realize" that you improved your own ranks, as opposed to trying to cheat your way to a greater duration of greater magnitude, or something. STOP and recast when that happens. I may also make it more elegant at some point.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 153
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 08/28/2015 08:49 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!
}}
''>I'm pretty sure you suffer the effects when trying to leave the room. So you can enter each room, cast the spell, then move on to the next room without suffering the effects.''

This isn't true.

''>This is a fair point. The messaging "The mist leaves the entire lower half of an imposing fire giant champion's body encased in a thick block of ice." is indicating the root effect being applied to the target and is completely separate from the damage that the spell does. Do you think it should be messaged after the damage rather than before to read better?''

My point was that the messaging implied the creature was somehow immobilized, while that wasn't the case as it immediately attempted an attack. Also, the damage seems exceptionally small for a 159 endroll, especially on a fire creature that has the largest vulnerability to cold damage.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1530
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 02/10/2016 07:43 PM PST
| subject = Re: 535 Bug
}}
''>Magnitude mismatch. The spell doesn't "realize" that you improved your own ranks, as opposed to trying to cheat your way to a greater duration of greater magnitude, or something. STOP and recast when that happens. I may also make it more elegant at some point.''

I'm sorry, but what? Do you realize that the updated Major Elemental spells are literally the only buffs in the game the don't allow for the use of enhancives to increase the benefits upfront? I don't see how this is "cheating" your way to a greater duration of greater magnitude when this concept applies to literally every lore-based spell.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1531
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 02/10/2016 07:49 PM PST
| subject = Re: 535 Bug
}}
Improving duration or magnitude of skills and spells is literally the definition of an enhancive. This kind of design inconsistency and anti-wizard/elementalist bias is utterly maddening.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1532
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 02/11/2016 06:47 AM PST
| subject = Re: 535 Bug
}}
I think what he's saying is similar to how spells like 425 work...if your stats/skills change to where the benefit increases, the spell needs to be recast for it to take effect.

For whatever reason, Haste requires the spell to be stopped and recast as opposed to just casting it again.

~ Methais
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1533
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 02/11/2016 10:49 AM PST
| subject = Re: 535 Bug
}}
''>I think what he's saying is similar to how spells like 425 work...if your stats/skills change to where the benefit increases, the spell needs to be recast for it to take effect.''

I find the wording implying that we're somehow "cheating our way to effects of greater magnitude" to be offensive. That is literally the definition of an enhancive and what applies to any other lore-based spell. There is no other possible interpretation to "improving your own ranks" or "cheating or something".
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1534
| author = DOUG
| date = on 02/11/2016 11:50 AM PST
| subject = Re: 535 Bug
}}
''>> That is literally the definition of an enhancive and what applies to any other lore-based spell. There is no other possible interpretation to "improving your own ranks" or "cheating or something".''

I didn't find it offensive (unforunate, yes) but the reason why I didn't is exactly because we openly discuss when to have enhancives active and when to remove them to gain benefits based on ''other'' in-game systems' restrictions that probably aren't intended.

Example, Aura and the Rift.

So, offended or not, I can't see how we could declare it not to be 'cheating or something' in some cases. As such, a GM needs to be mindful of it. Wording aside, it's accurate in my view.

Doug
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1535
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 02/11/2016 01:06 PM PST
| subject = Re: 535 Bug
}}
''>I can't see how we could declare it not to be 'cheating or something' in some cases.''

It's not cheating because every lore-based spell other than the updated Major Elemental ones (513, 515, 535) do not function in this manner. This is inconsistent game design that again penalizes wizards over everyone else.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1536
| author = DOUG
| date = on 02/11/2016 03:41 PM PST
| subject = Re: 535 Bug
}}
''>>This is inconsistent game design''

This point is fine if true. But. . .

''>>that again penalizes wizards over everyone else''

this feels to me like histrionics.

513 has long behaved this way - if one trains and the spell's active, one stops it and recasts it to get the training benefit. Keep in mind this spell's been around since before enhancives and the ensuing 'benefit' and discussion.

Heroism used to do the same thing. It might have been fixed, it might not - don't know.

Is it 'cheating' to have enhancives to take one to 50 ranks of lore, cast a spell, then swap them out so that one can wear another 50 ranks of AS to cast with? Yeah - I'd say that is a contravention of system design. Just like my other example. I can't authoritatively declare it so.

But I do know that if it is, the place to address it would be the enhancive system, not the spell system. And I'm half expecting the enhancive 2.0 to lead to 'cool-down' periods of some sort just to stop this very behavior. I hope that a more elegant solution can be found.

"Cheating"? I'd say it might be if one is using the 'wear time' of the spell to override the restriction of needing to actually be wearing the enhancive, consistently over time. Cheating is the continual application of contravening 'rules'. But that's just me. I do agree, though, that it should be evenly applied to all professions. Maybe even ;TotalSolution style.

Doug
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1537
| author = AMMINAR
| date = on 02/11/2016 04:11 PM PST
| subject = Re: 535 Bug
}}
''>It's not cheating because every lore-based spell other than the updated Major Elemental ones (513, 515, 535) do not function in this manner. This is inconsistent game design that again penalizes wizards over everyone else.''

You were just posting here a couple days ago about spells that function in exactly this manner. You were having problems with 104, 105, 107, 314, because of this feature.

To clarify, I think the 'cheating' that's being referenced here is (1) wear enhancive, (2) cast spell that benefits from enhancive, (3) remove enhancive, (4) continue refreshing spell in its strengthened form forever (until you die, I guess). Then you virtually never have to use charges on your enhancive. Every refreshable spell I'm aware of has some mechanism of dealing with this, though not always the same (compare the special blue motes of 107 to the "your spell misfires" of 104).

As Finros acknowledged, the mismatch test here is imperfect in how it misfires when you've increased (rather than decreased) ranks in EL:Air. But consider how mismatch is dealt with for, say, increases in spell ranks in 102, 120, 202, and the like. When you gain ranks in these, and you refresh the spell, it refreshes it in its INFERIOR form. I went a number of levels at one point without benefiting from increased DS from these spells, because I kept refreshing them and they kept refreshing in inferior form. Maybe it's better to get this warning that you need to stop and recast the spell when your skills increase. (Would probably be even better for ALL of these spells to refresh with your strengthened skills, or at least automatically restart with a fresh cast like 313 does.)
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1538
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 02/11/2016 04:30 PM PST
| subject = Re: 535 Bug
}}
''>You were just posting here a couple days ago about spells that function in exactly this manner. You were having problems with 104, 105, 107, 314, because of this feature.''

Actually, I wasn't. That was your continued and erroneous assumption.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1539
| author = AMMINAR
| date = on 02/11/2016 08:04 PM PST
| subject = Re: 535 Bug
}}
''>Actually, I wasn't. That was your continued and erroneous assumption.''

Mind telling the rest of us what was going on, then?
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 154
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 08/28/2015 08:51 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!
}}
''>> >I'm pretty sure you suffer the effects when trying to leave the room. So you can enter each room, cast the spell, then move on to the next room without suffering the effects.''

''>> This isn't true.''

Okay then yeah. I'm at a loss.

-- Robert

"All wizards are beginners; some of us have just been beginning longer!"
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1540
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 02/12/2016 07:21 AM PST
| subject = Re: 535 Bug
}}
''>I didn't find it offensive (unforunate, yes) but the reason why I didn't is exactly because we openly discuss when to have enhancives active and when to remove them to gain benefits based on other in-game systems' restrictions that probably aren't intended.''

''>Example, Aura and the Rift.''

If game mechanics support it and it's not against policy, it's not cheating. As far as I'm aware, nobody's ever been tagged for mechanics abuse over it. Plus if Simu saw this as cheating, I'm sure they could fix it fairly easily.

I think an oversight in game design would be a more accurate term.


~ Methais
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1541
| author = DOUG
| date = on 02/12/2016 09:47 AM PST
| subject = Re: 535 Bug
}}
''>>I think an oversight in game design would be a more accurate term.''

Potato, tomato. Or something like that. ;)

I'm good with oversight in game design! Let's openly declare it as such and suggest that the players are willing to self-police and not ab/use this particular oversight until it can be corrected. How far will that take us?

After all, this game is exactly what we the players make of it, through deed and action.

Doug
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1542
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 02/12/2016 09:53 AM PST
| subject = Re: 535 Bug
}}
''>How far will that take us?''

About as far as this:
http://imgur.com/gallery/5KXWggM

~ Methais
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1543
| author = DRAFIX
| date = on 02/12/2016 12:57 PM PST
| subject = Re: 535 Bug
}}
Let me propose a scenario: I use enhancives, cast to 4 hours. Now without putting on the enhancives again, I cannot extend the duration. I think that is what he's talking about. Of course this is not how all the other spells work in the game. Not that it really matters in the end, even if you could extend the duration with higher benefits, it would only last till you died or forgot to upkeep the spell or got dispelled. All of those conditions do happen often enough to make it not feasible anyways and the enhancive charges you could have saved would be minuscule given the chance of draining a charge is rather low.Overall it is just another inconvenience, another tedium.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1544
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 02/12/2016 01:26 PM PST
| subject = Re: 535 Bug
}}
''>Overall it is just another inconvenience, another tedium.''

It's cool bro, we have mana leech.

~ Methais
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1545
| author = RAGGLER
| date = on 02/13/2016 09:09 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
After using the new 515 now for nearly a month, I wanted to suggest a change that would bring this spell to a place of compromise. I believe the general consensus among the player base is that the cooldown should be removed because the addition of a 1 second RT was enough to lower the power of the spell. We're also seeing that 515 has a tendency to become unreliable when it falls at the wrong time in combat, essentially leaving a wizard in a tight spot, especially against powerful capped foes. Even at 3x harness and 2x EMC, I'm finding it very unattractive to activate 515 during the cooldown. The added mana penality is definitely effective in making you not want to do it.

I agree that removing the air lore benefit of occasionally casting a spell at zero RT was the right thing to do. It only encouraged mindless keyboard spamming. However, the new air lore benefit of occasionally channeling a spell is unfortunately even worse in my opinion. Currently, I'm not even seeing real hard evidence that channeling bolts is something I'm ever going to want to do. Maybe it's just decades of never being in hard RT that I need to let go of, but I'm also not seeing the results of channeling that I think most of us would want to see. The true downfall of channeling though, is that is basically has zero effect against non critable foes. Too many critters are immune to being crit killed for channeling to ever be a staple in capped hunting. I have to admit that it hurts hunting the confluence and seeing rapidfire's zero second channel flaring, and knowing that it isn't helping me at all.

What I would suggest to balance some of the concerns of 515 is removing the channel perk and adding something like this.

Training in Elemental Lore, Air has a seed 5 summation chance of renewing rapidfire for (seed 10 summation/2(rounded down))seconds on every cast of a spell.

Example a wizard with 35 air lore ranks has a 05% chance of renewing rapidfire for 1 second
Example a wizard with 108 air lore ranks has a 10% chance of renewing rapidfire for 4 seconds
Example a wizard with 202 air lore ranks has a 16% chance of renewing rapidfire for 6 seconds

Lets use the example of a wizard with 108 air lore ranks. Lets say they are standing in the middle of a large swarm where targets were not an issue. If they cast 60 spells in the 60 seconds of rapidfire, which honestly isn't happening, but lets just say they did, they would see, on average over time, rapidfire flaring 6 times, adding a total of 24 seconds to the length of the spell. In that additional 24 seconds, rapidfire will flare another 2 times, adding 8 seconds, and then possibly once more again, adding 4 seconds, for a total of 36 seconds to rapidfire's length on average. You would only see the addition of 36 seconds if you were standing in that huge swarm, casting a spell once a second on the second. This would be hugely beneficial in keeping rapidfire from falling during a swarm, when you really don't want the spell to fall. However, the second the swarm is finished, by the time you pick up your treasure and head out to find more critters, your added time to rapidfire will expire and you'll be on cooldown, just like normal. Effective when surrounded with targets and at your most vulnerable, less so when facing a critter at a time and moving around a hunting ground.
Isle Snack Muncher
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1547
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 02/14/2016 04:33 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
Just remove the cooldown and call it a day. We're still going to be limited by mana even at 3x HP, and the current "benefit" of CHANNELing bolts is like a sick joke combined with a big slap in the face with a salty cheese grater dipped in broken glass, and that's against crittable stuff. Against non-crittable stuff, it's completely useless. It literally serves zero purpose, just like the RF CHANNEL proc when casting spells that can't be channeled.

It's all such short sighted and uncreative game design, and I can't fathom how anyone involved in it that has any real experience playing a capped wizard could be brainstorming, come up with this stuff, and be like, "Sounds good to me, let's do it!" while keeping a straight face and not feeling like Gomer Pyle during the jelly donut scene on FMJ.

I don't mean that as an insult (glances at Aulis), but more along the lines of "I'm not mad at you, I'm disappointed in you."

This whole thing with all 3 spells has all been such an incredible disappointment and has to be ranked as one of the biggest blunders in GS history, right up there with GP2 sorcerers.

~ Methais
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1548
| author = RROY
| date = on 02/14/2016 03:31 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
Personally I dislike the 1 sec per cast and would gladly trade an even harsher cooldown for that, but still find RF useful as is now.

Saying that the changes were the biggest blunder in GS history is a bit of a stretch though, I can think of many major blunders way back in the day. Leaving things the way they were wasn't good game design. Common using RF and 901, or just Immolate Immolate Immolate, that's boring stuff there.


At least the RF cooldown penalty makes using harder bolts more likely 910 at a cost of 5 extra a lot more appealing than 901 at 5 extra. Same holds true for the other bolts.

According to the GMs the nerfs were directed from above, not by the Dev team.

There's a few people whom are dissatisfied with the changes, but there are many more whom are pleased with many of the other benefits that came our way. 502 I use almost every critter, cone of elements fantastic! and etc...

I doubt if the original idea was for people to build in such a way that they are using 1 single spell as their attack, and now we have taken a few more steps towards using more spells. Currently using 502, 505, 904, 518 All on a regular basis each hunt....
Just an elf about town...
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1549
| author = LALAKERCLAN
| date = on 02/14/2016 05:55 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
''>Saying that the changes were the biggest blunder in GS history is a bit of a stretch though, I can think of many major blunders way back in the day. Leaving things the way they were wasn't good game design. Common using RF and 901, or just Immolate Immolate Immolate, that's boring stuff there.''

I personally cackled with glee every time 519 1-shot something. It was fun. It made my wizard feel powerful. To each their own.

''> According to the GMs the nerfs were directed from above, not by the Dev team.''

The biggest problem I have with this whole fiasco (aside from the fact that I now play my sorcerer almost exclusively) is that there did not appear to me to be any rhyme or reason with the timing. Why change something that was part of the game of literally decades NOW, particularly if the Dev team wasn't ready to come up with solutions/compensatory changes that made the wizard class more fun in other ways?

Nerf first, come up with buffs later = bad, bad, bad plan.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 155
| author = LORDKRIP
| date = on 08/28/2015 08:52 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!
}}
''>>My point was that the messaging implied the creature was somehow immobilized, while that wasn't the case as it immediately attempted an attack.<

Just the lower half of the creature (it can't move from the room and I believe it loses some evasion DS). They can still attack, cast, and make rude gestures and comments.



Peace cannot be kept by force; it can only be achieved by understanding. - Albert Einstein
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1550
| author = ROLFARD
| date = on 02/14/2016 06:44 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
Just remove the cooldown (on 515) for natural wizards. It exists for 506 so why not for a higher level greater expense spell. Leave the cooldowns for sharing at the existing rates.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1552
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 02/15/2016 04:26 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
''> Leaving things the way they were wasn't good game design. ''

Know what's even worse game design? Nerfing everything while having zero fixes in place to address the problems the nerfs caused.

''>Common using RF and 901, or just Immolate Immolate Immolate, that's boring stuff there''

According to who, you? Gee, I guess I've been playing my wizard wrong all these years because I was actually having ridiculous amounts of fun with pre-nerf wizards.

Maybe taking forever to kill something and barely naming it out alive is your idea of fun, but for most people, not so much. You must be having boatloads of fun now though, right?

And yes I know the changes came from above. So did "let's make everything about microtransactions" and "let's use all the GS revenue to fund other stuff like the illustrious smashing success that was the super innovative and definitely doesn't look like a PS2 game Dragons of Elanthia," along with most other questionable game design decisions that happen. I'll just bite my tongue and say that it's quite a shame.

Just out of curiosity, what level is your wizard?

~ Methais
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1553
| author = DRUMPEL
| date = on 02/15/2016 09:29 AM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
Was tasked to take out a mean old magus so while I was tracking it down I decided to see if EVOKE method of Immolation would be useful at all in my arsenal. I set my INCANT to EVOKE 519.

''>incant set''INCANT CHANNEL Spells: - NoneINCANT EVOKE Spells: - 909: Tremors - 519: ImmolationINCANT OPEN Spells: - None

I used the spell at first by PREP 519 and then EVOKE {target}. It seemed to work as intended. The magus I used it on and the several warriors I used it on, they dropped and rolled around trying to put the fire out. Since I had my INCANT set to EVOKE, I just started using INCANT 519 and the results seemed different. I didn't get my targets to roll around, they just ran off (warriors) or stood there, got a minor stun or two and then proceeded to prep a spell or stand up.

Here's the last magus I used my INCANT 519 on:

''>incant 519''You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...Your spell is ready.You gesture at a minotaur magus. CS: +411 - TD: +332 + CvA: +9 + d100: +73 == +161 Warding failed!Wisps of black smoke swirl around a minotaur magus and he bursts into flame causing 21 points of damage! ... 20 points of damage! Nasty burns to right hand. Gonna need lots of butter. The minotaur magus is stunned! ... 20 points of damage! Nasty burns to chest make you wish you never heard of heartburn. ... 5 points of damage! Minor burns to chest. That hurts a bit.The flames around a minotaur magus continue to burn!Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.(Forcing stance down to guarded)''>stance off''You are now in an offensive stance.The flames surrounding a minotaur magus flare up violently... ... 15 points of damage! Burst of flames char chest a crispy black. The minotaur magus is stunned!The flames around a minotaur magus continue to burn!

(here 3 seconds has passed, I went to cast 415 just to try and knock the magus down)

''>incant 415''You trace a simple rune while intoning the mystical phrase for Elemental Strike...Your spell is ready.You gesture at a minotaur magus. CS: +397 - TD: +330 + CvA: +9 + d100: +34 == +110 Warding failed!You blast a minotaur magus for 18 points of damage. ... 10 points of damage! Light blow to back.Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.''>stance off''You are now in an offensive stance.A minotaur magus begins rumbling while making mystic gestures through the air.

The magus is prepping a spell 6 seconds after I hit him with a decent shot of an EVOKE 519. He took 2 minor stuns and my low roll on 415 didn't do anything useful to him. He was acting like I simply cast 519 at him and didn't EVOKE it.

I didn't save the hunt to a log and I can't scroll back far enough to get a clip from the last warrior I used my EVOKE set INCANT 519 on. But the last warrior took a decent endroll, then he ran off. He came back into the room about 5 seconds later and was still burning from the initial cast. I used TAP to self cast Tremors and he stood up immediately so I put him down with Ewave and then bolted him until he died.

Maybe I just had bad luck? But it doesn't feel like the spell was working as it should have been when I had 519 set to use ENVOKE when I INCANT.

-Drumpel
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1554
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 02/17/2016 03:56 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>inc 519 evoke''
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...
Your spell is ready.
You channel at a greater water elemental.
CS: +544 - TD: +570 + CvA: +25 + d100: +95 == +94
Warded off!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a greater water elemental for a moment, then dissipate.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
Roundtime: 3 sec.

Inc 519 evoke gives 3 seconds of hard RT, so it does not override incant channel settings even for single use.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1555
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 02/18/2016 10:57 AM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
That TD seems fair and balanced. Because spending 30-60 mana just to make something wardable is fun and exciting.

~ Methais
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1556
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 02/18/2016 11:10 AM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>That TD seems fair and balanced. Because spending 30-60 mana just to make something wardable is fun and exciting.''

If only wizards could summon up TD like that.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1557
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 02/18/2016 11:33 AM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>If only wizards could summon up TD like that.''

Would be nice. I'm fine with being a glass cannon though.

The only problem is we're all glass and no cannon now.

~ Methais
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1558
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 02/18/2016 12:43 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>The only problem is we're all glass and no cannon now.''

Haha. That's a new one, but yes.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1559
| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 02/20/2016 07:20 PM PST
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
So what is the chance for the DS penalty to activate? Sorry if I missed a post somewhere
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 156
| author = GOLDENOAK2
| date = on 08/28/2015 08:53 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!
}}
''<>''

Doesn't Ice patch work like that necrotic snake maneuver where you can't walk around, but can still attack? Seems I read that somewhere in the wiki.

Incidentally that snake maneuver at least is really annoying because you cant kick while its going on.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1560
| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 02/20/2016 07:59 PM PST
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
Also, what lore element would apply to the DS penalty effect for a follow up with Minor Water, which does impact damage, Water or Earth?
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1561
| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 02/21/2016 07:22 AM PST
| subject = Stone Fist
}}
What are the lore thresholds to use slap, clench, and pound?

Thanks :)
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1562
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 02/21/2016 07:34 AM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
My understanding of how EVOKE Immolation works is that critters will ''generally'' choose to roll around when they are on fire, but not ''always'' choose to do this. If in fact they should ''always'' choose to stop, drop, and roll then the spell is not presently working as intended. I pretty much left the full log without edits (other than bolding) to assist in reviewing:

My INCANT Setup

''>incant set''

INCANT CHANNEL Spells:
- None

INCANT EVOKE Spells:
- 519: Immolation

INCANT OPEN Spells:
- None


Unedited log - It's the combatant that has the issue?

''>s''
[Ruined Temple, Third Floor]
A mountain of rubble blocks passage to the east, rising nearly to the top of the remaining walls. While the debris appears packed together at the base, traversing the upper portion is hazardous. The damaged floor wears a visible slant in one area, with seawater from below pooling in the corner. You also see a spectral triton defender.
Obvious paths: north, east
''>''
.cc immolation

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.]
stance offensive
incant immolation
stance defensive

[Script finished!]
You are now in an offensive stance.
''>You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...''
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a spectral triton defender.
CS: +535 - TD: +400 + CvA: +25 + d100: +82 == +242
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a spectral triton defender and he bursts into flame causing 49 points of damage!
... 35 points of damage!
Vicious blow to neck might have been fatal a few centuries ago.
... 20 points of damage!
Strong hit rips arm from wrist to elbow.
The wound vanishes as the ethereal flesh swirls around in chaotic patterns.
... 10 points of damage!
Wild attack passes through the right leg, viciously assaulting the air!

The flames around a spectral triton defender continue to burn!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.
''>''
A triton combatant strides in, a wary look on his face.
''>''
.cc immolation com

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.]
TARGET com
stance offensive
You are now targeting incant immolation
stance defensive

[Script finished!]
a triton combatant.
''>You are now in an offensive stance.''
''>''
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a triton combatant.
CS: +535 - TD: +402 + CvA: +20 + d100: +14 == +167
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a triton combatant and he bursts into flame causing 24 points of damage!
... 25 points of damage!
Burst of flames to left leg blackens kneecap.
... 20 points of damage!
Burst of flames to left leg burns skin bright red.
... 15 points of damage!
Minor burns to right arm. That hurts a bit.
... 10 points of damage!
Minor burns to right arm. That hurts a bit.

The flames around a triton combatant continue to burn!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.
''>look''
[Ruined Temple, Third Floor]
A mountain of rubble blocks passage to the east, rising nearly to the top of the remaining walls. While the debris appears packed together at the base, traversing the upper portion is hazardous. The damaged floor wears a visible slant in one area, with seawater from below pooling in the corner. You also see a triton combatant and a spectral triton defender.
Obvious paths: north, east
''>''
A spectral triton defender falls to the ground and rolls, trying to smother the flames that surround it.
The flames surrounding a spectral triton defender continue to burn.
''>''
.cc 908 defe

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.]
TARGET defe
stance offensive
You are now targeting incant 908
stance defensive

[Script finished!]
a spectral triton defender.
''>You are now in an offensive stance.''
''>''
Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Major Fire...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a spectral triton defender.
You hurl a roaring ball of fire at a spectral triton defender!
AS: +510 vs DS: +269 with AvD: +22 + d100 roll: +38 = +301
... and hit for 71 points of damage!
A fine strike immobilizes the left leg for an instant.
The triton defender looks miffed.
The roaring ball of fire strikes a spectral triton defender, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.
... 10 points of damage!
Direct assault cleaves straight through the breastbone.
Alas, it mends before you can make a wish.

A burst of flame from your roaring ball of fire flies off and hits a triton combatant.
... 5 points of damage!
Minor burns to right hand. Ouch.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.
''>''
The flames surrounding a spectral triton defender flare up violently...
... 15 points of damage!
Quick strike connects with the triton defender's lower back!
Luckily there was nothing vital there.

The flames around a spectral triton defender continue to burn!
''>''
.cc 908

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.]
stance offensive
incant 908
stance defensive

[Script finished!]
You are now in an offensive stance.
''>Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Major Fire...''
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a spectral triton defender.
You hurl a roaring ball of fire at a spectral triton defender!
AS: +514 vs DS: +252 with AvD: +22 + d100 roll: +3 = +287
... and hit for 60 points of damage!
Strong hit rips arm from wrist to elbow.
The wound vanishes as the ethereal flesh swirls around in chaotic patterns.
The roaring ball of fire strikes a spectral triton defender, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.
... 5 points of damage!
Left ankle stung!
The triton defender stamps in silent annoyance.

A burst of flame from your roaring ball of fire flies off and hits a triton combatant.
... 5 points of damage!
Minor burns to left leg. That hurts a bit.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.
''>''
The flames surrounding a triton combatant flare up violently...
... 25 points of damage!
Burst of flames chars neck a crispy black.

The flames around a triton combatant continue to burn!
''>''
.cc 908

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.]
stance offensive
incant 908
stance defensive

[Script finished!]
You are now in an offensive stance.
''>Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Major Fire...''
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a spectral triton defender.
You hurl a roaring ball of fire at a spectral triton defender!
AS: +518 vs DS: +236 with AvD: +22 + d100 roll: +39 = +343
... and hit for 85 points of damage!
Hard strike shatters arm into vapor.
The arm reforms before your eyes!
The spectral form of the triton defender tenses in agony as he begins to dissolve from the bottom up!
The roaring ball of fire strikes a spectral triton defender, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.

A burst of flame from your roaring ball of fire flies off and hits a triton combatant.
... 5 points of damage!
Minor burns to right leg. That hurts a bit.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.
''>sea defe''
You search the triton defender.
You discard the defender's useless equipment.
He didn't carry any silver.
Interesting, he carried a blue crystal on him.
He had nothing else of value.
The triton defender fades into transparency, his remnants rapidly dissolving into the air.
''>''
A triton combatant thrusts with an oak-shafted silvery blue trident at you!
AS: +434 vs DS: +685 with AvD: +28 + d100 roll: +47 = -176
A clean miss.
''>''
.get cry

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.]
put in my
get cry
I could not find what you were referring to.
[Script]>You pick up a blue crystal.
put cry in my voluminous haversack
[Script]>get from my

[Script finished!]
''>''
.cc 906

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.]
stance offensive
You put a blue crystal in your voluminous haversack.
[Script]>Get what?
[Script]>incant 906
stance defensive

[Script finished!]
You are now in an offensive stance.
''>Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Fire...''
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a triton combatant.
You hurl a stream of fire at a triton combatant!
AS: +510 vs DS: +304 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +12 = +244
... and hit for 54 points of damage!
Burst of flames to right arm burns skin bright red.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.
''>''
A triton combatant falls to the ground and rolls, trying to smother the flames that surround it.
''>''
.cc 906

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.]
stance offensive
incant 906
stance defensive

[Script finished!]
You are now in an offensive stance.
''>Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Fire...''
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a triton combatant.
You hurl a stream of fire at a triton combatant!
AS: +514 vs DS: +239 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +25 = +326
... and hit for 94 points of damage!
Nasty burns to back. Won't be sleeping on that for awhile.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.
''>''
The flames surrounding a triton combatant flare up violently...
... 3 points of damage!
Minor burns to left arm. That hurts a bit.

The flames around a triton combatant continue to burn!
''>''
.cc 906

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.]
stance offensive
incant 906
stance defensive

[Script finished!]
You are now in an offensive stance.
''>Wait 1 sec.''
''>''
Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.
''>''
.cc 906

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.]
stance offensive
incant 906
stance defensive

[Script finished!]
You are now in an offensive stance.
''>Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Fire...''
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a triton combatant.
You hurl a stream of fire at a triton combatant!
AS: +518 vs DS: +221 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +14 = +337
... and hit for 107 points of damage!
Flames cook a triton combatant's abdomen. Looks about medium well.
The triton combatant gurgles once and goes still, a wrathful look on his face.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.
''>''



-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1567
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 02/21/2016 08:21 AM PST
| subject = Let 519 Cover All Elements
}}
One issue with wizards is we don't have enough warding spells to go around for each element. Not that it's anything to write home about anymore, but Immolate is our only elemental based warding spell that can be used regularly unless you count 415/502, which 502 is an opener/setup spell and not a primary damage spell, and 415 isn't a spell that any pure builds should be based around (though after the neutering of Immolate, this is the case now, which also features the extra suck factor of having to split our CS). Why does MnE have such a good warding spell in the first place? Always been curious about that.

Ice Patch is only good for one cast and is useless against non-crittable stuff.

Stone Fist well you know...it could be good, but Simu won't make it good. This also doesn't work on non-crittable stuff as far as I know. If I ever had a reason to cast this spell, I would know the answer to this.

Air all we get is 505 for a stun.

Oh yeah and Weapon Fire. When was the last time Weapon Fire was cast other than for "I haven't cast this spell in a few years, let's try it out again...nope, still sucks." reasons?

Since making those spells more than just situational limited use fireworks doesn't seem to be on the horizon (correct me if I'm wrong here, Simu), let Immolate cover all the elements via EVOKE or some other way to reliably choose the damage type (but without nerfing the damage like fire evoke, I'm talking about the non-disabler version, evoke is just being used for simplicity's sake). The flavoring wouldn't take much to come up with. The spell works the same as it does now, just with different elements and maybe different "burn" effects that make sense for each respective element.

It would also give more wizards use of the spell at lower levels. Now you can go to Teras and cast Blizzard on fire mages and stuff or cast Meteor Swarm on pyros, since we can just call the earth version of 519 that and free up the 525 slot so that we can move Rapid Fire there and remove the cooldown and then move Haste to 515 so we can have a level 35 spell slot available for something worthy of a level 35 spell slot.

But yeah, for being masters of the elements, we're lacking pretty hard in the warding department.

On another note, will Boil Earth ever be improved to where it's worth using?

~ Methais
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1568
| author = DRUMPEL
| date = on 02/21/2016 08:23 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Fist
}}
What are the lore thresholds to use slap, clench, and pound?

Without an official answer, from personal experience to use on like level:

Slap = .5x
Clench = 1-1.25x
Pound = 1.6 - 1.75x

This was from years back, not sure if it's changed.

-Drumpel
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1569
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 02/21/2016 08:29 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Fist
}}
With the current state of Stone Fist, does it even matter? :P

~ Methais
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 157
| author = GOLDENOAK2
| date = on 08/28/2015 08:55 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!
}}
''<
''>>''

Nothing stops the comments unless they invent an ice gag spell that fills their mouth with a big chunk of ice...works like silence but causes extreme headaches from brain freeze as well.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1570
| author = OBSERVER
| date = on 02/21/2016 08:37 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Fist
}}
A is likely trying to get the exact training requirements nailed down for the wiki.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1571
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 02/21/2016 09:00 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Fist
}}
The 514 wiki page should only say "Why are you here?"
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1572
| author = OBSERVER
| date = on 02/21/2016 09:13 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Fist
}}
Eh, that works for MFire I guess.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1573
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 02/21/2016 09:18 AM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
One more example of the same 'issue'?

In this example I don't believe any RT is being applied from the flames. Pretty much immediately after the flames flaring up, the combatant attacked (so I would expect that it should be trying to roll on the ground if it can do something and I additionally expect that it shouldn't be able to do anything at this point in time due to being in hard RT).

At which point(s) are RT supposed to be induced with the EVOKE version of Immolation?

-- Robert


''>e''
[Ruined Temple, Third Floor]
Through the narrow corridor flanked by towering columns, the wind howls like some haunting specter. A mountainous pile of collapsed wall lies to the south, leaving behind no clues as to what once lay there. Marking a navigable trail is a headless statue, a portion of its stoic face staring up from the ground. You also see a triton combatant.
Obvious paths: east, southeast, west
''>''
.cc immolation

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.]
stance offensive
incant immolation
stance defensive

[Script finished!]
You are now in an offensive stance.
''>You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...''
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a triton combatant.
CS: +535 - TD: +390 + CvA: +20 + d100: +16 == +181
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a triton combatant and she bursts into flame causing 33 points of damage!
... 20 points of damage!
Flames incinerate muscle tissue in neck exposing the trachea. More than you ever wanted to see.
... 20 points of damage!
Nasty burns to right arm. Gonna need lots of butter.
... 5 points of damage!
Minor burns to back. Looks uncomfortable.

The flames around a triton combatant continue to burn!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.
''>''
Your disk arrives, following you dutifully.
''>''
A triton executioner leaps from hiding to attack!
A triton executioner swings a coral-hilted sharply tapered longsword at you!
AS: +433 vs DS: +681 with AvD: +39 + d100 roll: +21 = -188
A clean miss.
''>''
.cc 906

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.]
stance offensive
incant 906
stance defensive

[Script finished!]
You are now in an offensive stance.
''>Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Fire...''
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a triton combatant.
You hurl a stream of fire at a triton combatant!
AS: +485 vs DS: +406 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +16 = +121
... and hit for 7 points of damage!
Burst of flames to abdomen. Didn't hurt much.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.
''>''
.cc 908 exe

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.]
TARGET exe
stance offensive
You are now targeting incant 908
stance defensive

[Script finished!]
a triton executioner.
''>You are now in an offensive stance.''
''>''
Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Major Fire...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a triton executioner.
You hurl a roaring ball of fire at a triton executioner!
AS: +485 vs DS: +326 with AvD: +57 + d100 roll: +61 = +277
... and hit for 103 points of damage!
Head reduced to a charred stump.
The triton executioner collapses, gurgling once with a wrathful look on her face before expiring.
The roaring ball of fire strikes a triton executioner, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.

A burst of flame from your roaring ball of fire flies off and hits a triton combatant.
... 10 points of damage!
Burst of flames to chest toasts skin nicely.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.
''>sea exe''
You search the triton executioner.
You discard the executioner's useless equipment.
She didn't carry any silver.
She had nothing of interest.
A triton executioner's slick skin begins to rapidly desiccate and dissolve away, leaving nothing behind.
''>''
.cc 906

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.]
stance offensive
incant 906
stance defensive

[Script finished!]
You are now in an offensive stance.
''>Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Fire...''
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a triton combatant.
You hurl a stream of fire at a triton combatant!
AS: +485 vs DS: +406 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +98 = +203
... and hit for 39 points of damage!
Burst of flames to left hand fries palm. Ouch!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.
''>''
The flames surrounding a triton combatant flare up violently...
... 3 points of damage!
Minor burns to right arm. That hurts a bit.

The flames around a triton combatant continue to burn!
''>''
A triton combatant thrusts with an oak-shafted silvery blue trident at you!
AS: +414 vs DS: +681 with AvD: +28 + d100 roll: +9 = -230
A clean miss.
''>''
.cc 906

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.]
stance offensive
incant 906
stance defensive

[Script finished!]
You are now in an offensive stance.
''>Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Fire...''
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a triton combatant.
You hurl a stream of fire at a triton combatant!
AS: +489 vs DS: +276 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +2 = +241
... and hit for 54 points of damage!
Burst of flames to right arm toasts skin to elbows.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.
''>''
.cc 906

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.]
stance offensive
In an awe inspiring display of combat mastery, a triton combatant engages you in a furious dance macabre, spiralling into a blur of strikes and ripostes!
A triton combatant thrusts with an oak-shafted silvery blue trident at you!
AS: +404 vs DS: +681 with AvD: +28 + d100 roll: +41 = -208
A clean miss.

A triton combatant thrusts with an oak-shafted silvery blue trident at you!
AS: +404 vs DS: +681 with AvD: +28 + d100 roll: +93 = -156
A clean miss.

A triton combatant thrusts with an oak-shafted silvery blue trident at you!
AS: +404 vs DS: +681 with AvD: +28 + d100 roll: +84 = -165
A clean miss.

A triton combatant thrusts with an oak-shafted silvery blue trident at you!
A heavy barrier of stone momentarily forms around you and blocks the attack!

[Script]>incant 906
stance defensive

[Script finished!]
You are now in an offensive stance.
''>Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Fire...''
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a triton combatant.
You hurl a stream of fire at a triton combatant!
AS: +493 vs DS: +267 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +6 = +258
... and hit for 67 points of damage!
Flames incinerate left arm to the bone. Not a pleasant sight.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.
''>''
The flames surrounding a triton combatant flare up violently...
... 10 points of damage!
Burst of flames to chest toasts skin nicely.

The flames around a triton combatant continue to burn!
''>''
.cc 906

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.]
stance offensive
incant 906
stance defensive

[Script finished!]
You are now in an offensive stance.
''>Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Fire...''
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a triton combatant.
You hurl a stream of fire at a triton combatant!
AS: +497 vs DS: +244 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +58 = +337
... and hit for 107 points of damage!
Flames cook a triton combatant's back. Looks about medium well.
The triton combatant collapses, gurgling once with a wrathful look on her face before expiring.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''


-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1574
| author = DOUG
| date = on 02/21/2016 09:24 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Fist
}}
If you're tired of crawlers diving on you, Stone Fist is a nice spell. While it's not as good in overall effects as Web (118), it has some utility even without EL:E training.

I'd like to see the 'ROOT'ed affect combat as well as 'movement.' Slight DS penalty (say -35) would be just stellar. And, if the creature is 'ROOT'ed, I don't expect to be eating shields and such. . .

Doug
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1575
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 02/21/2016 02:24 PM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Fist
}}
DougI'd like to see the 'ROOT'ed affect combat as well as 'movement.' Slight DS penalty (say -35) would be just stellar. And, if the creature is 'ROOT'ed, I don't expect to be eating shields and such. . .

"Rooted targets receive a penalty of -50 AS to melee attacks, -25 AS to ranged attacks, and -25 DS, but this does not stack with some other status conditions." In addition and not previously officially announced, rooted creatures cannot perform maneuvers. This applies to targeted Ice Patch (512) and Stone Fist (514).

GameMaster Estild
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1576
| author = LALAKERCLAN
| date = on 02/21/2016 02:49 PM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Fist
}}
Any chance of making Stone Fist less clunky/slow and lore intense?

Any chance of improvements to 519?

Boil Earth? Weapon Fire? Sandstorm?

415 really shouldn't be the best option we have but right now it sure is.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1577
| author = DOUG
| date = on 02/21/2016 02:58 PM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Fist
}}
Thanks, Estild - I ran across the quote after the post, but while scanning to see if there was anything on the Wikipedia. I noted that quote on 512, Ice Patch.

I left the post, rather than simply removing it because - I chose -35 for a reason; just a tad shy of the 211 and 215 benefits to AS for other pures, and per spell cast instance. That extra 10 is often the difference in crits and the wizard's survival.

I am very grateful to receive official confirmation on the maneuvers! Thank you.

Doug
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1578
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 02/21/2016 03:09 PM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Fist
}}
''>415 really shouldn't be the best option we have but right now it sure is. ''

Have no fear, they'll probably nerf it so they can say Immolate is now on par with 415.

~ Methais
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1579
| author = CAPTAINVIOLETBEARD
| date = on 02/22/2016 11:09 PM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Fist
}}
Hi, just checking in, are there any plans?
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 158
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 08/28/2015 08:57 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!
}}
''>> I'm pretty sure you suffer the effects when trying to leave the room. So you can enter each room, cast the spell, then move on to the next room without suffering the effects.''

''> This isn't true.''

Test it out in various places, if you're interested, and let me know where it is doing this. I'm more than happy to look into anything you come across.

''> My point was that the messaging implied the creature was somehow immobilized, while that wasn't the case as it immediately attempted an attack.''

It's rooted, not stunned. If you have a suggestion for how to improve this messaging, please let me know.

''> Also, the damage seems exceptionally small for a 159 endroll, especially on a fire creature that has the largest vulnerability to cold damage.''

As to this, it's still meant to be a setup for turning Minor Water into Minor Cold with water lore, and/or as a means to apply a root to the target. Given that, the damage is not meant to be very high, but I'm planning on keeping an eye on it.

~ Konacon
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1580
| author = CANDIDE
| date = on 02/23/2016 12:11 PM PST
| subject = New New 519 vs old new 519
}}
Went back to the OTF and hunted war griffins. Inspired by Kaedra's 528 (20 over max CS for non wisdom bonus race Clerics and yet full enhancive for wisdom.) I went in with 582 CS from a badge and heavy quartz orbs. For 16 of the 109 casts I was at 572 the rest were all at 582 which is 15 above max for a Dark Elf Wizard. Wizard has 122 ranks in Fire lore.


Old New Immolation (from the last go through and a recap)
133 casts
31 killed
4.29 casts per kill
182 average warding margin
23.46591 average strike damage
85.63107 average damage per cast

NEW New Immolation
109 casts
42 killed
2.59 casts per kill
11 Instant
195.27523 average warding margin (accounting for the boost CS rather well)
37.24103 Average strike damage
148.2041 Average damage per cast

Many kills were from just the impact damage after having bled the War Griffin down. I can go back and check if anyone is interested in that.

This originally was compared to 317 and 1115.

317 was (cleric has 61 ranks of religion)
103 casts
31 kills
3.32 casts per kill
168.69903 warding margin
46.50172 average strike damage
139.875 Average damage per cast

and
1115 was (empath has 100 summoning ranks.)
123 total casts
38 kills
3.23 casts per kill
170.2601626 average warding margin
26.29960317 Average damage per strike
124.9148936 Average damage per cast


What do I take from all this? That the NEW new 519 is where it "should" be more or less. Though considering I went in there in slightly super mode skews the end results in 519's favor. Something I did on purpose having seen kaedra's run through the park. What would I like done? I would like the damage to have more chances to hit chest abdomen back and less on limbs while keeping eye/head the same. Anyone else want that to be the case?

Now what I am eager to see is what is in store for wizards as far as disablers and other attack spells that would enable more styles of hunting or choices/abilities to hunt.

GBB
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1581
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 02/23/2016 12:52 PM PST
| subject = Re: New New 519 vs old new 519
}}
''>What do I take from all this? That the NEW new 519 is where it "should" be more or less. Though considering I went in there in slightly super mode skews the end results in 519's favor. Something I did on purpose having seen kaedra's run through the park. What would I like done? I would like the damage to have more chances to hit chest abdomen back and less on limbs while keeping eye/head the same. Anyone else want that to be the case?''

This is beyond dumb and incomparable analysis as Kaedra's 528 is based off of 30 lore ranks (15% of the SLR total) and not including 1711. Your wizard CS is absolute high end considering not everyone is a dark elf, even fully min-maxed with enhancives, 1711, and more than 60% of ELR ranks.

I don't agree at all that this is where things should be. Instead of starting ten thousand threads with a single post (no, it doesn't make your point more valid), you should take a good look at the apples to apples numbers I provided in the 519 vs. 317 samples thread.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1582
| author = CANDIDE
| date = on 02/23/2016 01:42 PM PST
| subject = Re: New New 519 vs old new 519
}}
"I don't agree at all that this is where things should be. Instead of starting ten thousand threads with a single post (no, it doesn't make your point more valid), you should take a good look at the apples to apples numbers I provided in the 519 vs. 317 samples thread."

I am not starting ten thousand threads on purpose I just don't want to slog through all the previous posts find it and reply to it. :) Why you would think I am trying to make my point more valid by doing that is baffling to me. Not everything is some nefarious Roswell like plot/scheme.

"This is beyond dumb and incomparable analysis as Kaedra's 528 is based off of 30 lore ranks (15% of the SLR total) and not including 1711. Your wizard CS is absolute high end considering not everyone is a dark elf, even fully min-maxed with enhancives, 1711, and more than 60% of ELR ranks."

The problems of lores to spell end effects I can agree with.

317 3rd cycle
Training in Spiritual Lore, Religion will provide a chance for a third cycle of deity-specific critical damage. The percent chance is (Religion Lore skill bonus - 70) ÷ 2.

Spiritual Lore, Religion ranks 16 20 27 35 50 70 90 110 130 150 170
Chance for third cycle of critical damage 2% 10% 20% 30% 40% 50% 60% 70% 80% 90% 100%

So 122 religion ranks would grant like a 60-70 percent chance to a third cycle while 122 ranks of fire lore on 519 would give a wizard around 80-85 percent of a second cycle. I have always argued that the new 519 needed a 2 to 3 damage cycle not the current 1 or 2. To the point that when the "fix" was rolled in I mentioned that the impact damage adder was not what I wanted to see done and was told by song lyrics "that you get what you need." (fun and I didn't take that response in a bad way because you dont have to take EVERYTHING in the worst possible light) But in terms of the numbers I ran earlier and the newer numbers the spell is much improved is it not? The wizard had only +5 AURA bonus in enhancives and 1711 to make up for the lack of the other 15 possible. I didn't want to search through characters in order to pass over the aura enhancives, but now I just might. This seems to go faster the more I do it. Fully maxed CS with 1711 would be 597. the moment I get a wizard with max CS and 31 ranks of fire lore I will do the apples to apples comparison. :) Give me a few years I could get to 587 CS and 30 fire lore on my Halfling wizard.

So to sum up.
-old new 519 horribad.
-new new 519 better.
-could still use what I originally wanted done to the spell to make it more like 317, maybe upping the chance on instant kills would be the answer?

GBB

ps be constructive not just adversarial.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1583
| author = DEANSMITH
| date = on 02/23/2016 02:09 PM PST
| subject = Re: New New 519 vs old new 519
}}
With 122 ranks of lore, the Wizard gets an additional flare 81% of the time and a insta-kill ~10% of the time. With 61 ranks of lore the Cleric is getting the additional flare 45% of the time (25% of the time if at 30 ranks). The Cleric would need 133 ranks of lore to have an equal chance at getting the additional flare. Considering this and the difference in average warding margin, the spells look mostly similar.

If warding margins and lore contributions were more similar, Immolation would be a step below 317.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1584
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 02/23/2016 02:29 PM PST
| subject = Re: New New 519 vs old new 519
}}
''>So 122 religion ranks would grant like a 60-70 percent chance to a third cycle while 122 ranks of fire lore on 519 would give a wizard around 80-85 percent of a second cycle. I have always argued that the new 519 needed a 2 to 3 damage cycle not the current 1 or 2. To the point that when the "fix" was rolled in I mentioned that the impact damage adder was not what I wanted to see done and was told by song lyrics "that you get what you need." (fun and I didn't take that response in a bad way because you dont have to take EVERYTHING in the worst possible light) But in terms of the numbers I ran earlier and the newer numbers the spell is much improved is it not? The wizard had only +5 AURA bonus in enhancives and 1711 to make up for the lack of the other 15 possible. I didn't want to search through characters in order to pass over the aura enhancives, but now I just might. This seems to go faster the more I do it. Fully maxed CS with 1711 would be 597. the moment I get a wizard with max CS and 31 ranks of fire lore I will do the apples to apples comparison. :) Give me a few years I could get to 587 CS and 30 fire lore on my Halfling wizard.''

This is so oversimplified, it's almost not even worth responding, but since you are spreading disinformation, I will repost what I posted in the original thread.

It takes far fewer religion ranks to get a basic chance of the 3rd cycle since 317 is based on skill bonus and not on seed ranks. At the base level, 317 also does 50% or more damage on the first damage cycle than 519, so it's far less of a slot machine than 519 is. I don't want to rely on a 3-6% instant kill (post-immolation warding margin penalties, given high elemental TDs for creatures across the board) when for a cleric, most of the damage is done upfront.

Relying on additional crit cycles forces you to rely on luck that the creature 1) can crit, 2) the crit location is a body part that the creature has, and 3) randomization results in a favorable roll. I want more damage up front, resulting in more reliability and less random luck, not an incineration chance that is going to be mitigated by the warding margin penalty anyway. There is a much lower ceiling for a wizard's maximum CS since they don't have 240, 340, or access to certain spiritual CS boosters that spiritualists do.

Higher CS across the board for clerics and empaths not only results in higher initial damage but straight up higher crit ranks to the point where the 3rd cycle is no longer relevant.

Looking at total damage is also completely the wrong approach because with 317, the creature is often dead from higher upfront damage and therefore higher 1st crit rank before it even has a chance to suffer more damage.

597 is also not a realistic baseline CS for a wizard (not everyone is a dark elf or a halfling). If you're comparing max wizard to max cleric, the cleric will win every day, but you're comparing max wizard to absolute baseline cleric CS, which does not compute at all.

Constructive would be you actually reading the arguments people posted in the main "519 vs. 317 samples" thread instead of trying to present your skewed samples as objective data.

TL,DR: The first damage cycle and first crit rank are far more important than your analysis depicts.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1585
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 02/23/2016 02:30 PM PST
| subject = Re: New New 519 vs old new 519
}}
''>With 122 ranks of lore, the Wizard gets an additional flare 81% of the time and a insta-kill ~10% of the time. With 61 ranks of lore the Cleric is getting the additional flare 45% of the time (25% of the time if at 30 ranks). The Cleric would need 133 ranks of lore to have an equal chance at getting the additional flare. Considering this and the difference in average warding margin, the spells look mostly similar.''

Again, way oversimplified. If you looked at the numerical tables in the "519 vs. 317 samples" thread, this doesn't prove to be the case at all nor does the math compute in actual apples-to-apples samples of casts per kill.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1586
| author = CANDIDE
| date = on 02/23/2016 02:36 PM PST
| subject = Re: New New 519 vs old new 519
}}
Examples are below. Notice that 317 has 3-4 damage cycles from lore. While 519 has 2-3 damages from lore and an extra 2 burning damage that is not going to be anything to write home about. If I get a super high 317 on a war griffin I will show it later.


317
You channel at a festering taint.
Particles of dust and soot rise from the floor at your feet as you release a pulsating, platinum ripple of energy toward a festering taint!
CS: +412 - TD: +339 + CvA: +25 + d100: +64 == +162
Warding failed!
The festering taint is cloaked in a blinding platinum light and assailed for 101 points of damage!
... 35 points of damage!
Immolating blast causes the festering taint's hand to explode.
The festering taint stares blankly at its severed right hand.
The festering taint is stunned!
... 20 points of damage!
Strike to abdomen punctures stomach!
... 10 points of damage!
Strike pierces upper arm!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

519
You gesture at a war griffin.
CS: +582 - TD: +451 + CvA: +25 + d100: +6 == +162
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a war griffin and it bursts into flame causing 70 points of damage!
... 35 points of damage!
Burst of flames to right leg blackens kneecap.
... 40 points of damage!
Nasty burns to right leg. Gonna need lots of butter.
... 10 points of damage!
Minor burns to right arm. That hurts a bit.
... 10 points of damage!
Minor burns to left arm. That hurts a bit.

The flames around a war griffin continue to burn!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

GBB
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1587
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 02/23/2016 02:39 PM PST
| subject = Re: New New 519 vs old new 519
}}
Cherry picking samples is going to do nothing to help your case.

The full statistical analysis is here:
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Wizards/Wizard%20Spells/thread/1764880?get_newest=true
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1588
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 02/23/2016 02:54 PM PST
| subject = Re: New New 519 vs old new 519
}}
All I got from this so far is that if Immolate is to be even remotely effective, it requires maxing your CS with enhancives.

Except things aren't supposed to be balanced around enhancives.

Cool game guys.

~ Methais
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1589
| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 02/23/2016 02:57 PM PST
| subject = Re: New New 519 vs old new 519
}}
''>It takes far fewer religion ranks to get a basic chance of the 3rd cycle since 317 is based on skill bonus and not on seed ranks.''

are you sure you're comparing the right charts? If so, I don't understand this remark.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 159
| author = GOLDENOAK2
| date = on 08/28/2015 09:01 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!
}}
If you hit something in the leg after it's ice patched can there be a chance for the leg to shatter explosively and painfully...
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1590
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 02/23/2016 03:10 PM PST
| subject = Re: New New 519 vs old new 519
}}
''>are you sure you're comparing the right charts? If so, I don't understand this remark.''

At 30 religion lore ranks, a cleric has 25% chance for a third cycle and at 60 ranks, 45%.

At 30 fire lore ranks, a wizard has 20% chance for a third cycle and at 60 ranks, 40%.

What's not to understand?

Also, a cleric's first crit cycle is plasma based, and a wizard's is fire-based, which covers a much narrower range of creatures.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1591
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 02/23/2016 03:13 PM PST
| subject = Re: New New 519 vs old new 519
}}
The math has proven that 317 is far more effective with just 60 lore ranks (less than 30% of spiritual lores) than 519 is with 150+ ranks (75%+). We aren't even counting 240, 340, or extra spiritual boosters in this.

Finally, to truly min-max Major Elemental CS to the extent that GM Estild seems to think we should, one would have to sacrifice a lot of TD and DS from the wizard circle that is not something a cleric has to do in their normal training. For one single spell that does not actually do much at all any more.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1592
| author = CANDIDE
| date = on 02/23/2016 03:23 PM PST
| subject = Re: New New 519 vs old new 519
}}
"This is so oversimplified, it's almost not even worth responding, but since you are spreading disinformation, I will repost what I posted in the original thread."

Spreading disinformation? I think you should go look that word up on the dictionary. I would also suggest ignoring me since I do not read your posts.


I will take my "baseline" cleric of 503 CS and 61 religion ranks and boost him up a bit then calculate 1st and 2nd strikes :). Will see how long this takes me and show some more skewed results. (Which are not skewed at all just simply what I have available.)

Remember these are all war griffins and nothing but war griffins with no one else casting at said Griffins but the immolater/witherer/divine fury....er :). There will be very few up front kills. If you have another creature in mind to base these casts off of I will see about abusing them in the name of skewed results as well.

GBB
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1593
| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 02/23/2016 03:28 PM PST
| subject = Re: New New 519 vs old new 519
}}
''>What's not to understand?''

You said one was based on a seed for the damage cycle, neither of them are. I'm trying to give your post due respect to understand fully.

''>At 30 religion lore ranks, a cleric has 25% chance for a third cycle and at 60 ranks, 45%.''

''>At 30 fire lore ranks, a wizard has 20% chance for a third cycle and at 60 ranks, 40%.''

You leave out the additional benefit of the incineration chance for wizards. The 5% lower percentage at 60 ranks comes with a 6% chance to outright kill the target. At 90 ranks the chance for a third cycle is equal, and then the wizards have the advantage up to 100%. Sounds fairly balanced, and tilted toward the wizard at higher levels. When you scold people about cherry picking, you might want to look at your own view as well.

''>Also, a cleric's first crit cycle is plasma based, and a wizard's is fire-based, which covers a much narrower range of creatures.''

Also, a wizard can evoke Immolation for less mana, less damage, causing RT on the target (assuming this is fixed). Fire still covers a very large range of creatures.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1594
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 02/23/2016 03:29 PM PST
| subject = Re: New New 519 vs old new 519
}}
''>Which are not skewed at all just simply what I have available.''

I get that it's what you have available, but it's not apples to apples and it proves nothing. By definition it is skewed.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1595
| author = CANDIDE
| date = on 02/23/2016 03:30 PM PST
| subject = Re: New New 519 vs old new 519
}}
"All I got from this so far is that if Immolate is to be even remotely effective, it requires maxing your CS with enhancives.

Except things aren't supposed to be balanced around enhancives.

Cool game guys.

~ Methais"

I am not adverse to this viewpoint at all. This was simply a response (albeit minor) to super Kaedra posts of 317. I do not have super 60+ million DE wizard so I did as much as I could without working too hard at looking for enhancives. (Just used a badge.)

I wouldn't want this to be the baseline for the spell either, but the spell is better than the original nerf.

I do not want to be "This all sucks and I am going to hold my breath until everything is like it used to be!"

I would rather try to appeal with the numbers that were asked for and the ideas those numbers give me for making the spell better. More upfront damage? Higher instant kill? I'm all for these things.

GBB
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1596
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 02/23/2016 03:35 PM PST
| subject = Re: New New 519 vs old new 519
}}
''>You said one was based on a seed for the damage cycle, neither of them are. I'm trying to give your post due respect to understand fully.''

My mistake, what I meant is that the extra cycle is based on ranks and not skill bonus for 519. The incineration chance is based on seed ranks though, and it's insignificant if you don't have 100+ ranks (or 50%+ of elemental lores).

''>You leave out the additional benefit of the incineration chance for wizards. The 5% lower percentage at 60 ranks comes with a 6% chance to outright kill the target. At 90 ranks the chance for a third cycle is equal, and then the wizards have the advantage up to 100%. Sounds fairly balanced, and tilted toward the wizard at higher levels. When you scold people about cherry picking, you might want to look at your own view as well.''

If you looked at the tables in the previous thread, the incineration chance is 2-6% at best for nearly 50% of the casts due to the incineration penalty and average endroll for post-cap hunting. I don't consider this a reasonable tradeoff. If you look at total casts per kill, it's still in favor of the cleric. You're again oversimplifying matters. Just because it is tilted toward the wizard at the higher levels means nothing regarding the lethality of the spell when the cleric relies so much less on chance to begin with and can further boost their CS past anything a wizard can achieve with 240 and 340.

''>Also, a wizard can evoke Immolation for less mana, less damage, causing RT on the target (assuming this is fixed). Fire still covers a very large range of creatures.''

Evoked immolation does basically no damage and very minimal RT for 15 mana. And there is still the bug about evoked immolation causing hard RT. I'd rather not have evoked immolation and an actual effective CS-based massed disabler, instead of two mediocre spells in one.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1597
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 02/23/2016 03:38 PM PST
| subject = Re: New New 519 vs old new 519
}}
''>I wouldn't want this to be the baseline for the spell either, but the spell is better than the original nerf.''

That's not what you said though. You said this was fine.

I agree it's better than the original nerf, but it's not really saying much, considering how far it's lacking in comparison to 317 and 1115 even before considering the availability of 240 and 340.

By the way, I should have blanked out the name, but "super Kaedra" posts aren't that super. My cleric is better than Kaedra. For hunting purposes, all that matters is CS and lore ranks and she has a very low split of religion lore due to her emphasis on rescuing.

''>I do not want to be "This all sucks and I am going to hold my breath until everything is like it used to be!"''

Now you're not dramatic at all. Presenting numbers in the other thread wasn't "I'm going to hold my breath until everything is like it used to be!". It was to demonstrate that the numbers show that 519 is far behind 317 and there is a long way to go to making them even remotely equal on an apples to apples basis.
{{saved post
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| subject = Re: New New 519 vs old new 519
}}
''>I would rather try to appeal with the numbers that were asked for and the ideas those numbers give me for making the spell better. More upfront damage? Higher instant kill? I'm all for these things.''

I do find it rather offensive ignoring someone else's work of 4 data sets of numbers that took 30+ hours to generate and extract (looking up crit ranks based on messaging was a massive pain). People have been appealing with the numbers, even if you ignored them.
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| subject = Re: New New 519 vs old new 519
}}
"That's not what you said though. You said this was fine."

I didn;t say it was fine at all. My statement of fact would be "What do I take from all this? That the NEW new 519 is where it should be more or less." instead I wrote "What do I take from all this? That the NEW new 519 is where it "should" be more or less." Adding the quotes to should means I do not feel that its as i should be it is what would be perceived as should by the GM's in charge of this whole thing.

If you are going to say that 528 CS isn't all that "super" because she is missing 30-100 religion ranks I would say you are wrong. She probably has +50 religion rank in enhancives for all I know, and I don't care if she did. The posts on her examples were denigrated because of the higher than normal CS so I wanted to do my own version of that. What is so hard to understand here? The name of the thread itself was the key here. I provided the 317 and 1115 numbers from before because I didn't want to rehash them and instead they ended up taking over the title of the thread which is crazy.

Just did a run of 522 CS 61 religion ranks will post the numbers as soon as I work through them. Yes I get that I can use 240 and wizards can't.

GBB
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!
}}
I really wish that you could freeze a target with sufficient warding end-roll and water lore and then shatter them using impact attacks (i.e. Tonis Bolt).

512 + 505 (17 mana) to have the effect of spells like 717 where if the warding is sufficiently high enough, in 2 casts you can shatter an opponent. That would be an amazing Ice Mage playstyle and super fun, very dynamic, and would allow for a lot of end-game diversity.

Food for thought!
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| subject = Re: New New 519 vs old new 519
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''>If you are going to say that 528 CS isn't all that "super" because she is missing 30-100 religion ranks I would say you are wrong. She probably has +50 religion rank in enhancives for all I know, and I don't care if she did. The posts on her examples were denigrated because of the higher than normal CS so I wanted to do my own version of that. What is so hard to understand here? The name of the thread itself was the key here. I provided the 317 and 1115 numbers from before because I didn't want to rehash them and instead they ended up taking over the title of the thread which is crazy.''

What was posted what was was tested, no more and no less. 528 CS is not super, it is 3x spells and max enhancives. Same as the wizard examples in that thread. She has 31 ranks of religion lore, no enhancives (and you should care if she did and would know, because there is no reason to skew results by pretending that they are there when they aren't).

Unless you are comparing 3x spells and 2x lore splits, it's not apples to apples. I don't know what's so hard to understand.
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| subject = Re: New New 519 vs old new 519
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"What was posted what was was tested, no more and no less. 528 CS is not super, it is 3x spells and max enhancives. Same as the wizard examples in that thread. She has 31 ranks of religion lore, no enhancives (and you should care if she did and would know, because there is no reason to skew results by pretending that they are there when they aren't).

Unless you are comparing 3x spells and 2x lore splits, it's not apples to apples. I don't know what's so hard to understand."

-Every Wizard, Empath, and Cleric I have used is x3 spells and x2 lores. Though not always set up for max CS. Cleric and empath were -5max CS. Please consider practicing what you are preaching.

-The link you provided doesn't actually go to anything. I remember huge piles of data sheets from the boards but I do not save them for future reference.

"I do find it rather offensive ignoring someone else's work of 4 data sets of numbers that took 30+ hours to generate and extract (looking up crit ranks based on messaging was a massive pain). People have been appealing with the numbers, even if you ignored them."

You seem to find everything offensive especially if you think it doesn't agree with you. Even though at no point have we been far off of anything.

-I have not ignored your 30 hours of testing. I just didn't go back and refresh them because things are impossible to find on these boards and really not needed when I have the numbers in front of me anyway. I see all you say about the first two shots of 317 being harder, but the changes to 519 mimics 317 to a rather large extent. If you want to send me a working link I will refresh my memory on all your work so you won't feel I am dismissing it. :) And yet all of that would mean nothing to the point of the post being.

New new 519 vs old new 519

GBB
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| subject = Re: New New 519 vs old new 519
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Wait a minute.

You went in with a very difficult to achieve CS to get warding margins of +20-30 higher than the results of the tests you're comparing against. Also a lot more fire lore, and then compared them to the 317 and 1115 tests? Not apples to apples at all.

Moreover...even skewing the results in favor of 519, I still don't think 519 actually did all that impressive damage! If you took away the ridiculous warding margins in this test you would have seen half the number of instant kills and significantly lower damage than 317, semi-comparable to 1115. And this is with end rolls that averaged 190 at cap. The tests run before seem to show that, for whatever reason, similar end rolls favor 317 over 519.

Yet 519 costs more than both 317 and 1115.
{{saved post
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| subject = Re: New New 519 vs old new 519
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"You went in with a very difficult to achieve CS to get warding margins of +20-30 higher than the results of the tests you're comparing against-LALAKERCLAN"

I never complained about those tests. I swear it is almost like reading comprehension has been lost completely.


"The tests run before seem to show that, for whatever reason, similar end rolls favor 317 over 519.-LALACKERCLAN"

I think knowing the extent of how good it can be is important. If I could bring myself to go 202 fire lore and do this test I would, but right now I have what I have. I do not feel 202 should be something this spell should be coded for. I do not feel 582 CS should be what a wizard needs in order to use this spell effectively, but I do believe in knowing the spells measurables.

I'm herding cats here.

Nevermind.


GBB
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| date = on 02/24/2016 12:32 AM PST
| subject = Re: New New 519 vs old new 519
}}
''>I never complained about those tests. I swear it is almost like reading comprehension has been lost completely.''

You might take your own advice about reading comprehension. Your own tests are skewed to prove whatever point you are trying to make while discounting the fact that your analysis is flawed and not apples to apples, so the results are meaningless. There is no point in discussing this further because your samples are not valid to any relevant comparison.

''>I'm herding cats here.''

Talk about being offensive when people don't agree with your points. You aren't going to herd us into anything, because it's bogus.
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| date = on 02/24/2016 04:33 AM PST
| subject = Re: New New 519 vs old new 519
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''>I think knowing the extent of how good it can be is important. If I could bring myself to go 202 fire lore and do this test I would, but right now I have what I have.''

Wouldn't this be useless anyway since 100% chance for a 3rd damage cycle happens at 150 ranks?

''>I do not feel 202 should be something this spell should be coded for.''

It made sense with old immolate and actually felt like making all in choices had actual real benefits. But yeah, not with this new garbage.

Even with these super CS clips, my 415 with 530 CS (101/101/101) is still better. And it knocks down most of the time without having to nerf the damage.

A level 15 spell...that half the classes in the game can learn...is better than our level 19 profession specific spell...with 100 fire lore ranks vs Immolate's 150 ranks.

http://images.memes.com/meme/203518

In before 415 gets nerfed so they can say immolate is just as good now and therefore Immolate's problems are fixed.

~ Methais
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 02/24/2016 06:12 AM PST
| subject = Re: New New 519 vs old new 519
}}
''>Yet 519 costs more than both 317 and 1115.''

519 is not a profession circle spell.
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| date = on 02/24/2016 06:55 AM PST
| subject = Re: New New 519 vs old new 519
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''>519 is not a profession circle spell.''

For all intents and purposes, it is. It might not say "Wizard" but the spell circle is exclusive to wizards.

We can split hairs and play semantics all day if you'd like, but I'd prefer to focus on getting something worth a crap done for this pile of trash called Immolate.

~ Methais
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| date = on 02/24/2016 07:47 AM PST
| subject = Re: New New 519 vs old new 519
}}
''>For all intents and purposes, it is. It might not say "Wizard" but the spell circle is exclusive to wizards.''

except it is not a profession circle. Your desire to have two circles with profession level powers are perhaps leading to unrealistic expectations.
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| date = on 08/28/2015 09:09 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!
}}
How about a self-cast 10 minute duration that mimics the effects of 112? We're losing haste to deal with the Swamp RT, why not give us a replacement?
{{saved post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| date = on 02/24/2016 08:37 AM PST
| subject = Re: New New 519 vs old new 519
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Would it make you happier if I called it a profession exclusive circle? Just let me know so we can get this semantics game over with. Otherwise please let me know what professions wizards share Major Elemental with.

~ Methais
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| date = on 02/24/2016 08:59 AM PST
| subject = Re: New New 519 vs old new 519
}}
''>>We can split hairs and play semantics all day if you'd like''

Wizards are the only profession that can natively cast the Major Elemental Circle. That does not make it a profession circle. It needs to continue to function as a Major circle. Not a single hair harmed. Attempts to claim otherwise for any purpose would fit the definition of hair-splitting or sophistry, though.

If I can offer an observation CANDIDE - as with any other audience or population I might interact with, I find there are some members of that audience who are exceedingly passionate about their viewpoint. I know this 'cuz I r one in some cases. I would suspect we each of us at one time or another could acknowledge we were in that frame of mind.

When in that frame, I feel as though to me there's only one right answer. Clearly it would be the one that I hold. And just as clearly, my correct answer is totally unassailable - built from common sense and a wealth of experience, backed by data that supports exactly my position. And when I'm in this frame, any rejoinder other than total and absolute concurrence drives me completely mad. I mean, it's so obvious! And everyone else is just wrong. Period.

That passion, that drive - even where it might be a minority or unpopular opinion - is critically important for any number of reasons. I'd be happy to lay out my thoughts, but I frequently get feedback that my posts are too long, and I'm working on that. I just wish we could all be aware of this perspective, and be a smidge less disagreeable one with another. There's nothing wrong with taking up the positions and supporting them. Undermining or belittling someone else needlessly though. . . that's used to emphasize or strengthen one's position. Sometimes, I think, too much for such actions to be of value.

The point (TL;DR) - recognize it happens to each of us, and should be welcome / used - but not abused.

Doug
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 02/24/2016 09:16 AM PST
| subject = Re: New New 519 vs old new 519
}}
''>except it is not a profession circle. Your desire to have two circles with profession level powers are perhaps leading to unrealistic expectations.''

Perhaps we should discuss those expectations. Does every other pure have at least 2 guaranteed and reliable instant kill magical combat combinations/spells? Yes. Do wizards now? No, not even 1. That's the entire point of the matter, the end.

Would wizards love to have all of their combat spells in a single circle so that we can have our cake and eat it too like every other pure, not having to make a tradeoff for which CS-based spell is more powerful? Of course we would. Talking about the "profession" circle is meaningless when the wizard circle has nothing of value except 925, which is used to justify why the rest of it is so weak. I would say in today's GemStone, 735 is far more powerful, versatile, and risk free than 925 ever was. 911, 913, and 925 are the only spells of any value within the wizard circle, period. The rest are just "flavor".

So what's the reason we can no longer have uber level 20, 25, 30, 35, and 40 spells instead of the garbage we've been given? I'd trade you for 720, 725, 730, 735, and 740 over 520 (lol), 525 (can't even be cast), 535, and 540 any day.
{{saved post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| subject = Re: New New 519 vs old new 519
}}
''>>Perhaps we should discuss those expectations. Does every other pure have at least 2 guaranteed and reliable instant kill magical combat combinations/spells? Yes. Do wizards now? No, not even 1. That's the entire point of the matter, the end.''

I like the very clearly laid out call to action. I don't know that I agree with it for a couple of reasons, but distilling it to this point is important and appreciated.

One of the expectations that I hold is that the existing game framework of rules (which includes profession definitions, the way magic is expressed in spheres and spell circles and more) remains intact in creating the solution. Changing the core framework, whether it be a discussion of changing training points for skills or changing rules of magic to address a profession's challenges always falls short in one regard - it doesn't take into account impacts to all other professions, or the labor needed to change the core so a 'new model' can be supported through those professions.

I would also challenge the comment that the Wizard spell list is useless (with the exception of a spell, or a couple of spells). I see no way that bolts could be considered useless. More importantly, I see no way that at any point before post-cap, it would be beneficial for wizards to not have bolts. But most important of all, bolts are not CS-driven, they are AS-driven.

All that said, and returning to the key point expressed by Destiny14 above, reliable (I won't go as far as 'guaranteed', still counter to my overall position) means of dealing with NPCs is probably best captured through a CS path, not an AS path. Bolts simply are too random to be able to rely on. Big damage, yes - but not reliable. Making bolts the reliable path again challenges the core of the rules' framework.

I like the discussion of combo - I've been playing around with varying disabling effects to see how combos are implemented for us wizards. One difference I see is that for other pure professions, the combos can affect multiple NPC attacks for a single cast. Some are very powerful and of relatively short duration - 30 seconds or so. Others may not be intended to be quite as powerful, but last longer. For wizards, it seems that wizard-specific attack combat combos (not talking about defense or utility here) are single NPC oriented, with the sole exception of Call Wind - which is not really reliable against quadruped / anti-magic / flying creatures. Note: I'm not including the Minor Elemental spells because a lot of professions in the game can use this spell list - so it is not wizard-specific.

How does this feel? A reliable (but not guaranteed) method of knocking down / stancing and rooting groups of NPCs. We have Call Wind for the first part - but that may need a look as to the efficacy. And we have. . . nothing to root a group of NPCs, and the single ones we have aren't 'supposed to' stack effects, even though even Rogues can get this benefit of proning, stancing and stunning.

Might not yet be TotalSolution worthy. Just throwing it out to get shredded in hopes something stronger can come along. As long as that something stronger doesn't end in 'easy-button' one-shot one-kill all the time, I think I can be happy.

Doug
{{saved post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| date = on 02/24/2016 10:01 AM PST
| subject = Re: New New 519 vs old new 519
}}
''> profession circle blah blah''

It still costs more, significantly more than 1115, and has similar lore requirements and benefits.

the devs put ALL of our useful warding spells in the 500s. The only CS spell that even exists in the 900s is Weapon Fire, and ain't nobody training wizard ranks for that. By design, then, the devs offered a choice: higher useful CS for lower DS/TD, enchanting ability, and call wind potency. Since bolt spells don't get any better with over training it previously only really made sense, for offensive purposes, to train in the 500s. Thus the 500s is the wizard specific CS circle for which we need to overtrain to have any reliable chance of warding anything considering critter TD. Seems exactly like a profession circle to me.

''> reading comprehension blah blah''

Really fella? Weren't your exact words that you think 519 is right where it should be?

If your only point is that adding the concussion damage improved the nerfed version of the spell then...sure! Definitely improved trash to less trash. But your point didn't stop there, and that is where the disagreement lies.

Question: do you believe no further improvements to 519 are warranted based on the available data? If yes, I (we?) respectfully disagree. If no, what do you think should be done to improve it?

Ps - asking it to hit the back/chest/abs more frequently is a bad idea.
{{saved post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = CANDIDE
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| subject = Re: New New 519 vs old new 519
}}
"reading comprehension blah blah-LALAKERCLAN"

"Really fella? Weren't your exact words that you think 519 is right where it should be?"

You don't need to go back and reread the post you are misquoting, but that is the second time you have done so to me. Please focus on the quotation marks around should.

"What do I take from all this? That the NEW new 519 is where it "should" be more or less.-ME"

"Quotation marks(“ ”) are used to enclose words that are quoted from the original source, or to set off dialog from narrative." Think of the air quotes you would use in a conversation. Then do the statement out loud with quote and without quotes. I think you will see the difference. Having misread me twice I can't help you much more than this.

"You might take your own advice about reading comprehension. Your own tests are skewed to prove whatever point you are trying to make while discounting the fact that your analysis is flawed and not apples to apples, so the results are meaningless. There is no point in discussing this further because your samples are not valid to any relevant comparison.-Destiny14"

If I have misread something that has been written here let me know. I have to my count been misrepresented at least 3 times. My examples are not apples to apples and never will be. I get that. They were never meant to be. Do you get that?

"I'm herding cats here.-Me"

"Talk about being offensive when people don't agree with your points. You aren't going to herd us into anything, because it's bogus-Destiny14"

When the point of the original post has been waylaid into a conversation about 317 vs 519 when the title clearly makes no such assertion and all I am doing is showing what the spell could possibly achieve and failing because of being called dumb etc., or accused of trying to influence people by starting new subjects, accused of agreeing with phantom points I have never made. Your fight is not with me. Read the title of the post. You should know me better than that.

"If your only point is that adding the concussion damage improved the nerfed version of the spell then...sure!-LALAKERCLAN"

See we agree. So now back to my original post.

"Now what I am eager to see is what is in store for wizards as far as disablers and other attack spells that would enable more styles of hunting or choices/abilities to hunt.-me"

So now that we have been well and truly nerfed but the spell is better than the original nerf even if I do not agree that this new spell is not where it should be what are we going to get in order to make wizards better? What disablers do we get now that that 519 needs to versions to do what one used to and less both less effectively than before. (Which could be applied to 535 btw.) How are our lores going to get better than pick 150-202 ranks in one lore to achieve anything of significance or in my case 122 ranks of one lore.

"If I can offer an observation CANDIDE - as with any other audience or population I might interact with, I find there are some members of that audience who are exceedingly passionate about their viewpoint. I know this 'cuz I r one in some cases. I would suspect we each of us at one time or another could acknowledge we were in that frame of mind.

When in that frame, I feel as though to me there's only one right answer. Clearly it would be the one that I hold. And just as clearly, my correct answer is totally unassailable - built from common sense and a wealth of experience, backed by data that supports exactly my position. And when I'm in this frame, any rejoinder other than total and absolute concurrence drives me completely mad. I mean, it's so obvious! And everyone else is just wrong. Period.-Doug"

I get it. What I don't see is how this was an attack on anyone else's position. At no point have I suggested that wizards shouldn't expect some relief from these nerfs/because of these nerfs.

I thought maybe I should just drop the thread and the faux narrative the thread has taken on, but I am amazingly stubborn. :)

GBB
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1617
| author = LALAKERCLAN
| date = on 02/24/2016 01:48 PM PST
| subject = Re: New New 519 vs old new 519
}}
''> air quotes''

Honestly, I'll drop it after this, but this phrase, your usage...I don't think this means what you think it means.

Back on topic: what needs to happen with 519 to make it worthwhile?

Personally, I think we need a 900s review. I would rather bolt - if I want nasty CS spells I can play my sorcerer or roll a cleric. But right now bolting just isn't good enough and that's why 519 could be seen as an answer/alternate play style. Unfortunately 519 isn't good enough for that play style either. You'd be better off with 415.
{{saved post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = MDEVEAU
| date = on 02/24/2016 08:17 PM PST
| subject = Re: New New 519 vs old new 519
}}
Personally, I think we need a 900s review. I would rather bolt - if I want nasty CS spells I can play my sorcerer or roll a cleric. But right now bolting just isn't good enough and that's why 519 could be seen as an answer/alternate play style. Unfortunately 519 isn't good enough for that play style either. You'd be better off with 415.

They just need to make bolts aimable and the situation resolves itself. Given the fact that EVERY CLASS can eventually melee aim at the head with high proficiency (ambush skill), its makes little sense why the MASTERS OF BOLTING (spell aiming..duh) can't reduce the probability of their bolts hitting a less desirable target.
{{saved post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = KARDIOS
| date = on 08/28/2015 09:11 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!
}}
''<< The surface of water can now be frozen when Ice Patch is cast, which will mimic the Water Walking (112) spell for that one room. This affect applies to all players as long as the ice patch is in the room (Not just the caster or the caster's group, although keep in mind that ice patches don't last very long once the caster is gone). >>''

Is it safe to cast electrical spells in a watery room while the water is frozen?
{{saved post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = MDEVEAU
| date = on 02/24/2016 08:18 PM PST
| subject = Re: New New 519 vs old new 519
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I get it. What I don't see is how this was an attack on anyone else's position. At no point have I suggested that wizards shouldn't expect some relief from these nerfs/because of these nerfs.

The problem is, your post has tones of support for a poorly timed and implemented adjustment to a staple spell. You can polish the turd anyway you like, but its still a turd.
{{saved post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = CANDIDE
| date = on 02/24/2016 09:38 PM PST
| subject = Re: New New 519 vs old new 519
}}
"The problem is, your post has tones of support for a poorly timed and implemented adjustment to a staple spell. You can polish the turd anyway you like, but its still a turd.-MDEVEAU"

Why polish a turd? I'm sure I haven't done that at all, but thank you for trying to figure it out for me. My tones of support are for moving forward with a plan and having something done sooner rather than later. To me this is project number 1 for Gemstone. I don't even want to put a toe in the pool towards the poor timing of the implementation or the need to adjust something that was not broken to most wizards considering the cost of the lore on the spell. Beat those dead horses all you want.


"They just need to make bolts aimable and the situation resolves itself. Given the fact that EVERY CLASS can eventually melee aim at the head with high proficiency (ambush skill), its makes little sense why the MASTERS OF BOLTING (spell aiming..duh) can't reduce the probability of their bolts hitting a less desirable target.-MDEVEAU" in response to

"Personally, I think we need a 900s review. I would rather bolt - if I want nasty CS spells I can play my sorcerer or roll a cleric. But right now bolting just isn't good enough and that's why 519 could be seen as an answer/alternate play style. Unfortunately 519 isn't good enough for that play style either. You'd be better off with 415.-LALAKERCLAN"

I have yet to try channeled bolts, do not think it is a great idea but I do know that AS/DS calculations isn't how my wizard dies. I have been hoping to add to wizard bolts so that they work well and accrue status effects in more ways. Freezing or some type of disabler, extra damage cycles (why should empaths have the only AS to CS bolt?), or some sort of high end bolt that does several things at once.

I would love the consolidation of bolts that has been discussed in a bunch threads. I wouldn't limit wizards arbitrarily though, 3-4 working CS spells, 2 or 3 working Boil earth type spells with status effects would be awesome.

GBB
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| date = on 02/25/2016 05:02 AM PST
| subject = Re: New New 519 vs old new 519
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Not trying to figure out anything for you. Merely providing an interpretation of maybe why your posts may be getting a paradoxical response to what you had originally intended.

And I am sure most would agree as well that bolts should have some synergistic effects. I would imagine unlike your position about aiming, most would probably support the change especially given the fact that it may be easy to design and implement spell bolt aiming in some fashion (as channeling has already demonstrated) as compared to hoping they can commit the required developer and design time to an entire bolt overhaul, which let's face it, would take considerably longer given the resources upper management allots for it.
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| subject = Re: New New 519 vs old new 519
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And to reiterate, the current version of immolation is a turd.
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1624
| author = DRUMPEL
| date = on 02/25/2016 06:22 AM PST
| subject = Re: New New 519 vs old new 519
}}
I don't know what you're all complaining about for 519 - it worked great! On almost every cast I tested, it outright killed my target. You guys must be doing something wrong.

Only the initial cast is posted for each target
Incant (not EVOKED) from stance guarded
level 81 wizard, Dark Elf
128 EL:E
65 MjE spells

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a kobold.
CS: +414 - TD: +3 + CvA: +25 + d100: +22 == +458
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a kobold and she bursts into flame causing 247 points of damage!
The kobold crumples to a heap on the ground and dies.

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a mongrel kobold.
CS: +414 - TD: +12 + CvA: +25 + d100: +9 == +436
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a mongrel kobold and she bursts into flame causing 295 points of damage!
The mongrel kobold falls to the ground and dies.

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a coyote.
CS: +414 - TD: +15 + CvA: +25 + d100: +60 == +484
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a coyote and he bursts into flame causing 314 points of damage!
The coyote falls to the ground and dies.

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a fenghai.
A fenghai glows brightly!
CS: +414 - TD: +156 + CvA: +25 + d100: +86 == +369
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a fenghai and it bursts into flame causing 234 points of damage!
The fenghai falls to the ground motionless.

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a white centaur.
CS: +414 - TD: +69 + CvA: +11 + d100: +22 == +378
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a white centaur and she bursts into flame causing 244 points of damage!
... 70 points of damage!
Fire completely surrounds a white centaur. Blood boils and heart stops.
The white centaur falls to the ground and dies.

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a cougar.
CS: +414 - TD: +66 + CvA: +25 + d100: +77 == +450
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a cougar and she bursts into flame causing 301 points of damage!
The cougar crumples to the ground and dies.

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a shan ranger.
CS: +414 - TD: +165 + CvA: +17 + d100: +26 == +292
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a shan ranger and she bursts into flame causing 128 points of damage!
... 60 points of damage!
Left arm incinerated. Unfortunate.
The ranger's lantern shield falls to the ground.
The shan ranger is stunned!
... 20 points of damage!
Nasty burns to abdomen, a shan ranger shrieks in pain!
... 10 points of damage!
Burst of flames to chest toasts skin nicely.
The flames around a shan ranger continue to burn!

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a shan warrior.
CS: +414 - TD: +132 + CvA: 0 + d100: +45 == +327
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a shan warrior and he bursts into flame causing 183 points of damage!
... 60 points of damage!
Flames engulf body. Chest left a smoldering ruin.
The shan warrior yips in pain as he falls to the ground motionless.

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a mammoth arachnid.
CS: +414 - TD: +100 + CvA: +25 + d100: +44 == +383
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a mammoth arachnid and it bursts into flame causing 243 points of damage!
... 70 points of damage!
Flame burns through a mammoth arachnid's abdomen. Greasy smoke billows forth.
The mammoth arachnid collapses to the ground and dies.

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a shan wizard.
CS: +414 - TD: +168 + CvA: +25 + d100: +57 == +328
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a shan wizard and he bursts into flame causing 202 points of damage!
... 70 points of damage!
Unbelievable heat melts a shan wizard's hand down to the wrist.
The wizard's long dagger falls to the ground.
The shan wizard yips in pain as he falls to the ground motionless.

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a shan cleric.
CS: +414 - TD: +182 + CvA: +17 + d100: +65 == +314
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a shan cleric and he bursts into flame causing 141 points of damage!
... 70 points of damage!
Fire completely surrounds a shan cleric. Blood boils and heart stops.
The shan cleric yips in pain as he falls to the ground motionless.

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a waern.
CS: +414 - TD: +200 + CvA: +25 + d100: +4 == +243
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a waern and she bursts into flame causing 104 points of damage!
... 70 points of damage!
Back burnt to the bone. Smoke curls up from what's left of a waern.
The waern is stunned!
... 25 points of damage!
Burst of flames char chest a crispy black.
... 25 points of damage!
Burst of flames char chest a crispy black.
The flames around a waern continue to burn!

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a dybbuk.
CS: +414 - TD: +196 + CvA: +25 + d100: +95 == +338
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a dybbuk and it bursts into flame causing 142 points of damage!
... 65 points of damage!
Head explodes, splattering sizzling bits of flesh and bone everywhere.
You hear a sound like a weeping child as a white glow separates itself from the dybbuk's body as it rises, disappearing into the heavens.
The dybbuk falls to the ground motionless.

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an eidolon.
CS: +414 - TD: +264 + CvA: +25 + d100: +31 == +206
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around an eidolon and it bursts into flame causing 92 points of damage!
... 45 points of damage!
Huge hit explodes left arm into cold, viscous mist.
When you look again, the arm has reformed.
The eidolon is stunned!
... 15 points of damage!
The eidolon fades for a second as the blow passes through the chest.
... 5 points of damage!
Weak blow to neck wouldn't have scared the eidolon even if it were still alive.
The flames around an eidolon continue to burn!

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a dybbuk.
CS: +414 - TD: +199 + CvA: +25 + d100: +76 == +316
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a dybbuk and it bursts into flame causing 149 points of damage!
... 75 points of damage!
Left arm incinerated. Unfortunate.
The dybbuk is stunned!
... 30 points of damage!
Burst of flames to right arm burns skin bright red.
... 25 points of damage!
Minor burns to right leg. That hurts a bit.
The flames around a dybbuk continue to burn!

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a waern.
CS: +414 - TD: +209 + CvA: +25 + d100: +48 == +278
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a waern and she bursts into flame causing 112 points of damage!
... 70 points of damage!
Fire completely surrounds a waern. Blood boils and heart stops.
You hear a sound like a weeping child as a white glow separates itself from the waern's body as it rises, disappearing into the heavens.
The waern falls to the ground and dies.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
The flames surrounding a dybbuk flare up violently...
... 35 points of damage!
Burst of flames to left hand fries palm. Ouch!
The flames around a dybbuk continue to burn!

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a dybbuk.
CS: +414 - TD: +190 + CvA: +25 + d100: +15 == +264
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a dybbuk and it bursts into flame causing 95 points of damage!
... 70 points of damage!
Fire completely surrounds a dybbuk. Blood boils and heart stops.
You hear a sound like a weeping child as a white glow separates itself from the dybbuk's body as it rises, disappearing into the heavens.
The dybbuk falls to the ground motionless.

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a dybbuk.
CS: +414 - TD: +202 + CvA: +25 + d100: +75 == +312
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a dybbuk and it bursts into flame causing 178 points of damage!
... 70 points of damage!
Back burnt to the bone. Smoke curls up from what's left of a dybbuk.
The dybbuk is stunned!
... 50 points of damage!
Skin and some muscle burnt off chest.
... 15 points of damage!
Minor burns to chest. That hurts a bit.
The flames around a dybbuk continue to burn!

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a waern.
CS: +414 - TD: +194 + CvA: +25 + d100: +59 == +304
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a waern and she bursts into flame causing 163 points of damage!
... 80 points of damage!
Flame burns through a waern's abdomen. Greasy smoke billows forth.
You hear a sound like a weeping child as a white glow separates itself from the waern's body as it rises, disappearing into the heavens.
The waern falls to the ground and dies.


As you can clearly see, the spell is awesome and works well on creatures well under and I mean, well under, my wizard's level.

-Drumpel (who posts this in jest - it's so dark and dreary in here right now)
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1626
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 02/25/2016 06:51 AM PST
| subject = Re: New New 519 vs old new 519
}}
''>I would also challenge the comment that the Wizard spell list is useless (with the exception of a spell, or a couple of spells). I see no way that bolts could be considered useless. More importantly, I see no way that at any point before post-cap, it would be beneficial for wizards to not have bolts. But most important of all, bolts are not CS-driven, they are AS-driven.''

We can still bolt with 510, so technically Wizard circle bolts can be lived without. Plus, Barring magic immune stuff like vvrael, I don't know of anything that's immune to Hurl Boulder, but there are plenty of things things that are immune to lightning, water, acid, cold, and fire.

''>the devs put ALL of our useful warding spells in the 500s. The only CS spell that even exists in the 900s is Weapon Fire, and ain't nobody training wizard ranks for that. By design, then, the devs offered a choice: higher useful CS for lower DS/TD, enchanting ability, and call wind potency. Since bolt spells don't get any better with over training it previously only really made sense, for offensive purposes, to train in the 500s. Thus the 500s is the wizard specific CS circle for which we need to overtrain to have any reliable chance of warding anything considering critter TD. Seems exactly like a profession circle to me.''

Except now our 500s CS spells suck, so now we're stuck splitting our CS between MnE for 415, which is better than Immolate in every way, but still have to maintain a reasonable MjE CS for Mana Leech. Other than nobody, what other profession has to split their CS like that?

''>Why polish a turd? I'm sure I haven't done that at all, but thank you for trying to figure it out for me. My tones of support are for moving forward with a plan and having something done sooner rather than later. To me this is project number 1 for Gemstone. I don't even want to put a toe in the pool towards the poor timing of the implementation or the need to adjust something that was not broken to most wizards considering the cost of the lore on the spell. Beat those dead horses all you want.''

I think the point people are getting at is that your post could easily be misinterpreted to be in support of Immolate's current state, as a lot of people seem to have interpreted it as just that, myself included. And the last thing we want are GMs latching onto something like that and saying, "Someone said Immolate is fine, we have no further plans for the spell anymore!"

Slightly exaggerated, but you get the point.

If Simu wants wizards to bolt, they need to make bolts worth using. And the answer to that isn't to ruin everything else so that we're left with no other option. Bolt hunting in its current state is about as fun as playing a non-ambushing sword & board square.

The Wizard and MjE spheres need to be reworked. Throw our combat spells in one sphere, throw our utility spells in the other. I'm not gonna beat the dead horse by going down the list spell by spell, as that has already been done a million times by people on here, most likely falling on deaf ears.

415 is currently our best warding spell. Even without double casts from fire lore, it could still be argued as being better than Immolate in most cases. If Simu doesn't see this as a problem with Wizard/MjE spells being too weak now, then I'm just at a loss for words.

~ Methais
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1627
| author = LALAKERCLAN
| date = on 02/25/2016 08:56 AM PST
| subject = Re: New New 519 vs old new 519
}}
''> 415 is currently our best warding spell. Even without double casts from fire lore, it could still be argued as being better than Immolate in most cases. If Simu doesn't see this as a problem with Wizard/MjE spells being too weak now, then I'm just at a loss for words.''

Yep.

''> Bolt hunting in its current state is about as fun as playing a non-ambushing sword & board square.''

Yep. Inc 410, stance off, inc 906, inc 906, inc 906, inc 906, inc 904 ("I know it's pretty low on health by now!"), loot. Pretty much exactly the same as the old "at rat, at rat, at rat, at rat." Hooray!
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1628
| author = RAGGLER
| date = on 02/25/2016 06:42 PM PST
| subject = Elemental Focus
}}
With all the changes that wizards have gone through recently, I didn't notice this one until a few days ago. It looks like elemental focus can now be easily stacked to 4 hours with a duration of 20 minutes a cast. I now have people approaching me for wizard spellups and asking to include the full 4 hours of elemental focus. Was this really the intention when the spell was changed? I'm having a hard time understanding the decision to make a 13th level major circle spell so readily available to everyone.

I would make the argument that heroism, being a 15th rank major circle spell is close enough to elemental focus to compare. Heroism is only a slightly better buff to a wizard as elemental focus is to a cleric or empath, and heroism can only be shared for 1 minute if the caster has 65 blessing lore ranks. Heroism has also been one of the most closely guarded spells when it comes to availability on scrolls and merchant imbedables, and yet elemental focus now seems like it could become part of an everyday wizard spellup. I understand that heroism is a more powerful spell being a buff for melee AS and shear fear, but is it really that much more powerful to be so closely guarded when elemental focus is now on it's way to becoming as ordinary a spell as 401?

Isle Snack Muncher
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1629
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 02/25/2016 07:24 PM PST
| subject = Re: Elemental Focus
}}
Isle Snack MuncherWith all the changes that wizards have gone through recently, I didn't notice this one until a few days ago. It looks like elemental focus can now be easily stacked to 4 hours with a duration of 20 minutes a cast. I now have people approaching me for wizard spellups and asking to include the full 4 hours of elemental focus. Was this really the intention when the spell was changed? I'm having a hard time understanding the decision to make a 13th level major circle spell so readily available to everyone.

That shouldn't have been possible and has now been corrected. Elemental Focus (513) is self-cast only now.

GameMaster Estild
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 163
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 08/28/2015 09:12 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!
}}
''> Is it safe to cast electrical spells in a watery room while the water is frozen?''

It is not. Though that is also some food for thought...

~ Konacon
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1630
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 02/25/2016 07:28 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
Bumping this thread.

Is this being looked into or am I not understanding the new version of the spell correctly?

At what point is RT supposed to be incurred with the Disabler (Evoke) version of this spell? Is there anything that allows the critters to mitigate this?

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1631
| author = MDEVEAU
| date = on 02/25/2016 08:39 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
How can you question the power of our 19 mana disabler that does little damage? Come now, surely this is fun!
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1632
| author = RAGGLER
| date = on 02/26/2016 06:32 AM PST
| subject = Re: Elemental Focus
}}
Well that makes more sense, thanks!

Isle Snack Muncher
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1633
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 02/26/2016 06:53 AM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>> How can you question the power of our 19 mana disabler that does little damage? Come now, surely this is fun!''

It's only 15 mana to cast as a disabler now but it doesn't seem to be working as advertised (or I'm not understanding correctly how it should be working). Clarification either way would be appreciated.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1634
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 02/26/2016 07:10 AM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>It's only 15 mana to cast as a disabler now but it doesn't seem to be working as advertised (or I'm not understanding correctly how it should be working). Clarification either way would be appreciated.''

Just cast Mana Leech, it's the answer to everything including why our other spells suck.

~ Methais
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1635
| author = DRUMPEL
| date = on 02/26/2016 09:20 AM PST
| subject = Re: Elemental Focus
}}
''>That shouldn't have been possible and has now been corrected. Elemental Focus (513) is self-cast only now.''
''>GameMaster Estild''

Odd....the spell has been able to be cast upon others for a long time, since I can recall.

I didn't personally have any reason to really ever do so, but I knew you could. The spell casts as a CS based version and if the target would ward it, nothing would happen.

Trying to get someone to 4 hours time for the spell was a tedious task since it costs 13 mana a shot and you only got a short duration for the casts (I thought they were around 10-15 minutes, though it could just have depending on the warding failure or perhaps wizard level???).

The old spell information from the GSIV page even lists that the spell can be cast upon others, but has a much shorter duration:

http://www.play.net/gs4/info/spells/spelllist.asp?circle=2#513

Type: OffenseThis spell will give the caster/target a bonus of +20 to their spell Attack Strength (AS) and a penalty of -40 to their physical AS. The caster/target will receive a +1 bonus to their spell AS for every two Major Elemental spell ranks over 13, capped at the caster's level.For example, if the caster has 23 Major Elemental spell ranks, the spell AS bonus will be +25.With the increased bonus there is an increase in mana cost; 13 base mana +1 for every additional bonus gained.The duration for 513 Elemental Focus is significantly shorter when cast at a target.

The target also did not get the added benefit that a self cast would give for the increased bolt AS, the target got a flat +20.

Most people never asked for this spell from a wizard just because the added bolt AS wasn't needed by others and it was just too mana and time consuming to get a decent duration.

-Drumpel
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1636
| author = DRUMPEL
| date = on 02/26/2016 09:25 AM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>It's only 15 mana to cast as a disabler now but it doesn't seem to be working as advertised (or I'm not understanding correctly how it should be working). Clarification either way would be appreciated.''Just cast Mana Leech, it's the answer to everything including why our other spells suck.~ Methais

I don't really use the spell. I tried a few hunts to use the "disabler" version of the spell, but it seemed inconsistent. Most of the time the target would stop, drop and roll and stop doing other actions. Other times the target would basically just shrug it off while they still burned and tried to kick the crap out of me.

The disabler version seems to be kind of working.

I don't do fire lore with my wizard so I just pretty much avoid the spell anyway. Just my two cents.

-Drumpel
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1637
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 02/26/2016 09:32 AM PST
| subject = Re: Elemental Focus
}}
Pretty sure the reason it was originally a warding spell when cast on other was due to the -40 physical AS penalty that came with it. Since the AS penalty was removed, the warding check went away with it.

102 worked the same way back when it was +50 DS/-50 AS. Not sure what the numbers are like on 102 now but if it still gives an AS penalty it should still have a warding check when cast on others.

~ Methais
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1638
| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 02/26/2016 09:48 AM PST
| subject = Re: Elemental Focus
}}
''>Not sure what the numbers are like on 102 now but if it still gives an AS penalty it should still have a warding check when cast on others.''

It does still have the warding check
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1639
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 02/26/2016 09:57 AM PST
| subject = Re: Elemental Focus
}}
Does it still give an AS penalty like it used to?

~ Methais
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 164
| author = LORDKRIP
| date = on 08/28/2015 09:14 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!
}}
''>>It is not. Though that is also some food for thought...<

Omnomnom -- sounds delicious



Peace cannot be kept by force; it can only be achieved by understanding. - Albert Einstein
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1640
| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 02/26/2016 10:00 AM PST
| subject = Re: Elemental Focus
}}
''>Does it still give an AS penalty like it used to?''

yes
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1641
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 02/26/2016 10:01 AM PST
| subject = Re: Elemental Focus
}}
''>yes''
A good positive attitude never hurts.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1644
| author = STAVMAN
| date = on 02/26/2016 01:07 PM PST
| subject = Re: Elemental Focus
}}
So why was it removed as castable on Others.....
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1645
| author = DRUMPEL
| date = on 02/26/2016 01:57 PM PST
| subject = Re: Elemental Focus
}}
''>So why was it removed as castable on Others.....''

It's not a game breaking spell if others have an extra little boost to bolt AS, if you ask me. Just seems odd to remove it. If it did something more fun, like add crit weighting to bolts and gave a much lager AS boost, then I can understand why Wizard's can't be casting it up on others.

-Drumpel
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1646
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 02/27/2016 12:03 AM PST
| subject = Re: Elemental Focus
}}
''>It's not a game breaking spell if others have an extra little boost to bolt AS, if you ask me. Just seems odd to remove it. If it did something more fun, like add crit weighting to bolts and gave a much lager AS boost, then I can understand why Wizard's can't be casting it up on others.''

Because we should stop giving away the farm with all wizard spells. 215 and similar major spirit spells cannot be other cast without significant amounts of lore.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1648
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 02/27/2016 05:12 AM PST
| subject = Re: Elemental Focus
}}
''>Because we should stop giving away the farm with all wizard spells. 215 and similar major spirit spells cannot be other cast without significant amounts of lore.''

^ This. As if there isn't enough reason for wizards to be pocket characters for other professions as opposed to actually being played. Even moreso after these dumb nerfs.

~ Methais
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1649
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 03/12/2016 08:05 AM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
I took a couple weeks off from hunting. Came back this weekend and this spell is still broken (or it just sucks if it is working as intended). The spell has definitely gotten bad enough that I've switched my tactics to using Call Wind a lot more frequently.

Is anyone looking into this? Is it working as intended? Have we just thrown up our arms with this spell and moved on to new projects? Bueller?

''It's a sad day when it doesn't bother people when they have been set on fire any more!''

Here are a couple more clips of this stellar spell in action. Some bonus irony in these clips in that I actually did kill a combatant using the ''disabler'' version of Immolation so I guess you can argue that at least he was disabled. And, of course, Call Wind didn't have any effect on the sentry. I'm going to try over training in wizard spell ranks in the near future to see if that gives a noticable boost to my Call Wind success rate. I am ''hoping'' it does given it's success against lower level critters (currently at 101 wizard spell ranks).


''>incant set''

INCANT CHANNEL Spells:
- None

INCANT EVOKE Spells:
- 519: Immolation

INCANT OPEN Spells:
- None

.cc immolation
stance offensive
incant immolation
stance defensive

[Script finished!]
You are now in an offensive stance.
''>You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...''
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an ethereal triton sentry.
CS: +535 - TD: +483 + CvA: +25 + d100: +92 == +169
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around an ethereal triton sentry and she bursts into flame causing 34 points of damage!
... 50 points of damage!
Brutal assault cuts a swath through the torso!
Fortunately for the triton sentry, it doesn't need lungs.
... 30 points of damage!
Strong blow to the head!
The triton sentry enjoys the breeze.
... 10 points of damage!
Direct assault cleaves straight through the breastbone.
Alas, it mends before you can make a wish.
... 3 points of damage!
Glancing blow to the right arm leaves a trail of vapor in its wake.

The flames around an ethereal triton sentry continue to burn!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.
''>look''
[Ruined Temple, Nexus]
A single stone stand rests in the center of the balcony, and a smooth stone statue, masterfully carved to resemble a single droplet of water, is placed on top of it. Water gently flows back and forth about the area, making a soft splash as the waves contact the stone stand. Two stone causeways, one wide and one elaborately carved, ascend from the balcony to the east and west, and each is supported by a series of marble pillars. You also see an ethereal triton sentry and some muck.
Obvious exits: none
''>''
Your disk arrives, following you dutifully.
''>''
.cc callwind

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.]
stance offensive
incant callwind
stance defensive

[Script finished!]
You are now in an offensive stance.
''>Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Call Wind...''
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an ethereal triton sentry.
A gust of wind tugs at your sleeves. Suddenly, a fierce wind rips through the area, scattering everything in its path and making it difficult to remain standing.
The wind then subsides.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.
''>''
.cc 906

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.]
stance offensive
incant 906
stance defensive

[Script finished!]
You are now in an offensive stance.
''>Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Fire...''
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an ethereal triton sentry.
You hurl a stream of fire at an ethereal triton sentry!
AS: +510 vs DS: +425 with AvD: +34 + d100 roll: +16 = +135
... and hit for 27 points of damage!
Direct assault cleaves straight through the breastbone.
Alas, it mends before you can make a wish.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.
''>''
.cc 906

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.]
stance offensive
incant 906
stance defensive

[Script finished!]
You are now in an offensive stance.
''>Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Fire...''
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an ethereal triton sentry.
You hurl a stream of fire at an ethereal triton sentry!
AS: +514 vs DS: +425 with AvD: +34 + d100 roll: +15 = +138
... and hit for 26 points of damage!
Quick strike rips left arm open!
To your dismay it quickly closes on its own.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.
''>''
You feel more refreshed.
''>''
An ethereal triton sentry points an ethereal, clawed finger toward you!
CS: +451 - TD: +488 + CvA: +12 + d100: +6 - -5 == -14
Warded off!
''>''



You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a triton radical.
CS: +535 - TD: +440 + CvA: +20 + d100: +42 == +157
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a triton radical and he bursts into flame causing 15 points of damage!
... 25 points of damage!
Flames incinerate left leg to the bone. Not a pleasant sight.
It is knocked to the ground!
... 20 points of damage!
Flames incinerate muscle tissue in neck exposing the trachea. More than you ever wanted to see.
... 10 points of damage!
Burst of flames to head catches ears on fire! Yeeoww!

The flames around a triton radical continue to burn!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.
''>look''
[Ruined Temple, Second Floor]
Aside from the water that has flooded the area, the room is plain. A single iron sconce remains attached to the wall, and the remains of another rests below the surface of the water. You also see a triton radical that is lying down, a triton combatant, some muck and a door at the top of a small set of stairs.
Obvious exits: northeast, east
''>''
Your disk arrives, following you dutifully.
''>''
[Roll result: 187 (open d100: 94)]
A triton combatant rushes towards you and connects with a shoulder check!
The triton combatant manages to knock you flat on your back! 17 hits!

Roundtime: 12 sec.
Roundtime changed to 6 seconds.
''>''
.cc immolation com

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.]
You feel more refreshed.
[Script]>
In an awe inspiring display of combat mastery, a triton combatant engages you in a furious dance macabre, spiralling into a blur of strikes and ripostes!
A triton combatant thrusts with an oak-shafted silvery blue trident at you!
AS: +424 vs DS: +644 with AvD: +28 + d100 roll: +72 = -120
A clean miss.

A triton combatant thrusts with an oak-shafted silvery blue trident at you!
AS: +424 vs DS: +644 with AvD: +28 + d100 roll: +15 = -177
A clean miss.

A triton combatant thrusts with an oak-shafted silvery blue trident at you!
AS: +424 vs DS: +644 with AvD: +28 + d100 roll: +8 = -184
A clean miss.

A triton combatant thrusts with an oak-shafted silvery blue trident at you!
AS: +424 vs DS: +644 with AvD: +28 + d100 roll: +74 = -118
A clean miss.

[Script]>TARGET com
stance offensive
You are now targeting incant immolation
stance defensive

[Script finished!]
a triton combatant.
''>You are now in an offensive stance.''
''>''
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a triton combatant.
CS: +535 - TD: +390 + CvA: +20 + d100: +24 == +189
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a triton combatant and he bursts into flame causing 22 points of damage!
... 35 points of damage!
a triton combatant takes a breath of super-heated air and expires gasping.
The triton combatant collapses to the floor with a splash, gurgling once with a wrathful look on his face before expiring.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.
''>stand''
You stand back up.
''>sea com''
You search the triton combatant.
You discard the combatant's useless equipment.
He didn't carry any silver.
He had nothing of interest.
A triton combatant's body sinks into the water, quickly scattering and dissolving out of sight.
''>look''
[Ruined Temple, Second Floor]
Aside from the water that has flooded the area, the room is plain. A single iron sconce remains attached to the wall, and the remains of another rests below the surface of the water. You also see the purple Faulkil disk, a triton radical that is lying down, some muck and a door at the top of a small set of stairs.
Obvious exits: northeast, east
''>''
.cc 906

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.]
stance offensive
incant 906
stance defensive

[Script finished!]
You are now in an offensive stance.
''>Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Fire...''
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a triton radical.
You hurl a stream of fire at a triton radical!
AS: +510 vs DS: +379 with AvD: +27 + d100 roll: +43 = +201
... and hit for 52 points of damage!
Burst of flames char chest a crispy black.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.
''>''
A triton radical stands up with a grunt.


-- Robert

Raggler squeakily says, "Muffins are also known to be one of the most healthiest foods in the world."

Raggler squeakily says, "It's a fact."
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 165
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 08/28/2015 09:18 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!
}}
''>> > My point was that the messaging implied the creature was somehow immobilized, while that wasn't the case as it immediately attempted an attack.''

''>> It's rooted, not stunned. If you have a suggestion for how to improve this messaging, please let me know.''

Current message: The mist leaves the entire lower half of an imposing fire giant champion's body encased in a thick block of ice.

Not that I think anything is wrong with the current messaging but possibly the version below capture the same flavor but is easier to read quickly in combat scroll to determine the effect (rooted to the spot). The current message, if read quickly, could lead one to simply see 'encased in a thick block of ice' and make a different assumption.

Suggested message: The mist forms a thick block of ice around the imposing fire giant champion entire lower half rooting it to the spot.

Just a proposal since you asked for suggestions.

-- Robert

"All wizards are beginners; some of us have just been beginning longer!"
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1650
| author = MDEVEAU
| date = on 03/12/2016 09:32 AM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
There is just no reason to cast it as a disabler. Its disheartening that development finds this acceptable alternative.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1652
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 03/12/2016 11:38 AM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
It's acceptable to have to cast Immolate 4783290427 times and plink them to death because we have Mana Leech, so says Estild.

The previous sentence may have been hyperbolic. But only slightly.

~ Methais
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1653
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 03/12/2016 11:45 AM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''> have to cast Immolate 4783290427 times ''
''> The previous sentence may have been hyperbolic. But only slightly.''

Only slightly? :|

~ Konacon
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1655
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 03/12/2016 11:52 AM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>Only slightly? :|''

Ok ok, fairly hyperbolic! Possibly somewhat and maybe even decent, but not heavy!

~ Methais
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1656
| author = LALAKERCLAN
| date = on 03/13/2016 10:14 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
519 just...ugh. It just isn't good enough.

Have you tried 415? Be curious to see your results with it. Although it does cost 20 mana rather than 15, you should see MUCH better damage and critters flat on their back in most instances. If you have the CS to ward that is.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1657
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 03/14/2016 07:09 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
I just wanna know how 415's damage is calculated, because I see numbers like this all the time:

You gesture at a spectral triton defender.
CS: +530 - TD: +396 + CvA: +20 + d100: +72 == +226
Warding failed!
You blast a spectral triton defender for 26 points of damage.
... 50 points of damage!
Strong attack separates head from shoulders.
Head disappears in the breeze as a new one forms on the triton defender's shoulders!
The triton defender is knocked over by the blast!

A vortex of elemental energy suddenly strikes a spectral triton defender!
CS: +530 - TD: +396 + CvA: +20 + d100: +38 == +192
Warding failed!
You blast a spectral triton defender for 74 points of damage.
... 60 points of damage!
Strike to the abdomen goes right through, leaving misty trails in its wake.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.



~ Methais
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1658
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 04/03/2016 09:37 AM PDT
| subject = 518 incant bug?
}}
''>inc set''

INCANT CHANNEL Spells:
- 519: Immolation

INCANT EVOKE Spells:
- 903: Minor Water
- 909: Tremors
- 902: Minor Elemental Edge

INCANT OPEN Spells:
- 518: Cone of Elements


''>inc 518''
''>You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cone of Elements...''
Your spell is ready.
You gesture.
Nothing happens.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

Is this supposed to happen when there's no target in the room? The bandit hid.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1659
| author = ALSTHAR
| date = on 04/03/2016 07:40 PM PDT
| subject = Re: 518 incant bug?
}}
If you INCANT (won't hit any other players, regardless of grouped with you or not) the spell will not hit hidden targets.

when EVOKED (which will also potentially hit players not grouped with you) it can hit hidden targets.

https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Cone_of_Elements_(518)
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 166
| author = DEANSMITH
| date = on 08/28/2015 09:18 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!
}}
''>As to this, it's still meant to be a setup for turning Minor Water into Minor Cold with water lore, and/or as a means to apply a root to the target. Given that, the damage is not meant to be very high, but I'm planning on keeping an eye on it.''

I like the update.

The only problem I have with the spell is the same one I had before: The 'Rooted' status effect kinda sucks.

Honestly, I'd prefer NO damage if I can guarantee that I will keep my target occupied long enough so I can even attempt to start casting Minor Water.

Instead of THIS:

You gesture at a Grimswarm troll guard.
An airy mist quickly gathers around a Grimswarm troll guard.
The dull golden nimbus surrounding a Grimswarm troll guard suddenly begins to glow brightly.
CS: +Blah - TD: +Blah + CvA: +8 + d100: +52 == +155
Warding failed!
The mist leaves the entire lower half of a Grimswarm troll guard's body encased in a thick block of ice.
... 15 points of damage!
Chilly blast to the chest causes heart to skip a beat.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

I would prefer something like THIS:

You gesture at a Grimswarm troll guard.
An airy mist quickly gathers around a Grimswarm troll guard.
The dull golden nimbus surrounding a Grimswarm troll guard suddenly begins to glow brightly.
CS: +Blah - TD: +Blah + CvA: +8 + d100: +52 == +155
Warding failed!
''>A Grimswarm troll guard shudders as the mist begins to restrict its movements. (+3 to +7 seconds RT)''
The mist leaves the entire lower half of a Grimswarm troll guard's body encased in a thick block of ice.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

This would allow it to be a better single target setup spell.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1660
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 04/03/2016 08:42 PM PDT
| subject = Re: 518 incant bug?
}}
I'm not talking about hidden targets, I'm talking about how INCANT is not supposed to cast the spell at all with no visible targets in the room instead of wasting mana.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1661
| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 04/03/2016 08:45 PM PDT
| subject = Re: 518 incant bug?
}}
''>I'm not talking about hidden targets, I'm talking about how INCANT is not supposed to cast the spell at all with no visible targets in the room instead of wasting mana.''

''>INCANT OPEN Spells:''
''>- 518: Cone of Elements''

working as intended
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1662
| author = KITHUS
| date = on 04/03/2016 09:50 PM PDT
| subject = Re: 518 incant bug?
}}
INCANT SET CLOSED 518

Keith/Brinret/Shiun

Brinret says, "Bring it on."
A bolt of lightning streaks down from the sky and strikes Brinret!
... 16428101 points of damage!
Powerful blast reduces Brinret to a smoldering pile of ash!
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1663
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 04/10/2016 09:24 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
So seriously Estild, what's the scoop here? A full 15 seconds went by after I set the defender on fire and it just completely ignored the spell (this is the disabler version that I am casting in case there is any confusion). Is this working as intended or is there a bug that is hard to nail down? If the spell just isn't going to work (and it is intended) then there should at least be some messaging to this effect.


''>You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...''
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a spectral triton defender.
CS: +535 - TD: +400 + CvA: +20 + d100: +21 == +176
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a spectral triton defender and he bursts into flame causing 33 points of damage!
... 50 points of damage!
Brutal assault cuts a swath through the torso!
Fortunately for the triton defender, it doesn't need lungs.
... 10 points of damage!
Direct assault cleaves straight through the breastbone.
Alas, it mends before you can make a wish.
... 3 points of damage!
Glancing blow to the left arm leaves a trail of vapor in its wake.

The flames around a spectral triton defender continue to burn!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
Initial spell cast. 3 seconds of RT passed.
Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.
''>look''
[Ruined Temple, Second Floor]
The ruined hall continues north and south, the environment oddly undisturbed, save for the occasional drop of water that falls from the ceiling. A pair of clay pots rests at the base of the wall, each filled to the brim with water. You also see a spectral triton defender and some muck.
Obvious exits: north, south
''>''
Your disk arrives, following you dutifully.
''>.cc 906 ''

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.]
stance offensive
incant 906
stance defensive

[Script finished!]
You are now in an offensive stance.
''>Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Fire...''
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a spectral triton defender.
You hurl a stream of fire at a spectral triton defender!
AS: +510 vs DS: +388 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +15 = +163
... and hit for 26 points of damage!
Left ankle stung!
The triton defender stamps in silent annoyance.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.
''>''
Follow up spell cast. At least 6 seconds of RT has passed.

.cc 906

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.]
stance offensive
incant 906
stance defensive

[Script finished!]
You are now in an offensive stance.
''>Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Fire...''
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a spectral triton defender.
[Spell Hindrance for some pale layered leather hunts ridged with colorful braid lacing is 4% with current Armor Use skill, d100= 2]
Your armor prevents the spell from working correctly.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.
''>''
2nd follow up spell has been cast. At least 9 seconds of RT has passed.

Defender thinks to himself "Oh, it's one of those wizards, this should be easy..."

A spectral triton defender thrusts with a tarnished dark silver harpoon at you!
AS: +414 vs DS: +629 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +99 = -90
A clean miss.
''>''

.cc 906

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.]
stance offensive
incant 906
stance defensive

[Script finished!]
You are now in an offensive stance.
''>Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Fire...''
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a spectral triton defender.
You hurl a stream of fire at a spectral triton defender!
AS: +514 vs DS: +281 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +37 = +296
... and hit for 94 points of damage!
Attack whistles right through the lower back encountering little resistance!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.
''>''
3rd follow up spell has been cast. At least 12 seconds of RT has passed.
.cc callwind

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.]
stance offensive
incant callwind
stance defensive

[Script finished!]
You are now in an offensive stance.
''>Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Call Wind...''
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a spectral triton defender.
A gust of wind tugs at your sleeves. Suddenly, a fierce wind rips through the area, scattering everything in its path and making it difficult to remain standing.
The wind then subsides.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.
''>''
4th follow up spell has been cast. At least 15 seconds of RT has passed.

The Defender thinks to himself "This bozo is toying with me! First he casts his feeble fire and now he's just fanning a breeze!"

In an awe inspiring display of combat mastery, a spectral triton defender engages you in a furious dance macabre, spiralling into a blur of strikes and ripostes!
A spectral triton defender thrusts with a tarnished dark silver harpoon at you!
You barely manage to fend off the attack with your runestaff!

A spectral triton defender thrusts with a tarnished dark silver harpoon at you!
AS: +404 vs DS: +629 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +72 = -127
A clean miss.

A spectral triton defender thrusts with a tarnished dark silver harpoon at you!
AS: +404 vs DS: +629 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +31 = -168
A clean miss.

A spectral triton defender thrusts with a tarnished dark silver harpoon at you!
AS: +404 vs DS: +629 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +10 = -189
A clean miss.

''>''
.cc 906

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.]
stance offensive
incant 906
stance defensive

[Script finished!]
You are now in an offensive stance.
''>Wait 1 sec.''
''>''
Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.
''>''
.cc 906

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.]
stance offensive
incant 906
stance defensive

[Script finished!]
You are now in an offensive stance.
''>Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Fire...''
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a spectral triton defender.
You hurl a stream of fire at a spectral triton defender!
AS: +518 vs DS: +286 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +80 = +338
... and hit for 128 points of damage!
Body swirls violently from a strong hit to the back.
Neat effect!
The spectral form of the triton defender tenses in agony as he begins to dissolve from the bottom up!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.
5th follow up spell has been cast and the defender is finally dead. Where's the fire?!?


-- Robert

Raggler squeakily says, "Muffins are also known to be one of the most healthiest foods in the world."

Raggler squeakily says, "It's a fact."
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1664
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 04/10/2016 09:32 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
I also submitted a bug on this as well since it's been some time since I initially posted the issue here and there hasn't been any fix / indication that it is being looked into:


Immolation (518) EVOKE version just doesn't have any follow up effect sometimes
Submitted bug "Immolation (518) EVOKE version just doesn't have any follow up effect sometimes" to play.net's bug tracking database under category "Magic" with these details:
"I posted a log under Gemstone IV->Wizards->Majore Elemental Circle->Post 1663 showing that a Defender was set on fire and no follow up effect after at least 15 seconds had gone by. Also additional logs in earlier posts of the same thread."


-- Robert

Raggler squeakily says, "Muffins are also known to be one of the most healthiest foods in the world."

Raggler squeakily says, "It's a fact."
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1665
| author = DOUG
| date = on 04/10/2016 09:35 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
Not that I think it matters in terms of the bug submission, but I'm curious.

Did the defender do something just before you hit it with Immolate? Perhaps an MStrike? Anything that would account for it standing around 9 to 12 seconds idle after being hit by the spell?

Doug
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1666
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 04/10/2016 10:02 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
Maybe he was working on filing his taxes when I walked in... Here is the clip right before what I previously posted. Basically I had just entered the room.


''>peer sYou peer south and see ...''

[Ruined Temple, Second Floor]
The ruined hall continues north and south, the environment oddly undisturbed, save for the occasional drop of water that falls from the ceiling. A pair of clay pots rests at the base of the wall, each filled to the brim with water. You also see a spectral triton defender and some muck.
Obvious exits: north, south
''>Your disk arrives, following you dutifully.''
''>s[Ruined Temple, Second Floor]''
The ruined hall continues north and south, the environment oddly undisturbed, save for the occasional drop of water that falls from the ceiling. A pair of clay pots rests at the base of the wall, each filled to the brim with water. You also see a spectral triton defender and some muck.
Obvious exits: north, south
''>.cc immolation stance offensiveincant immolationstance defensiveYou are now in an offensive stance.''
''>You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...''


-- Robert

Raggler squeakily says, "Muffins are also known to be one of the most healthiest foods in the world."

Raggler squeakily says, "It's a fact."
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1667
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 04/10/2016 10:05 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
Also the Defender wasn't standing around idle. It took a couple attacks on me pretty much ignoring that fact that I had cast Immolate on it.

So clearly it wasn't in RT preventing Immolate from working if that's the thought.

-- Robert

Raggler squeakily says, "Muffins are also known to be one of the most healthiest foods in the world."

Raggler squeakily says, "It's a fact."
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1668
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 04/10/2016 10:12 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
Immolate is such trash now.

I'd like to try and convince myself that this bug still hasn't been addressed because the spell as a whole is getting "fixed" but I've pretty much run out of hope for this shell of a once great spell.

Do yourself a favor and switch to 415, you'll hate things slightly less.


~ Methais
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1669
| author = DOUG
| date = on 04/10/2016 10:13 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>>So clearly it wasn't in RT preventing Immolate from working if that's the thought.''

Yep, after 9 seconds in your log? Or so? Still - damned annoying, and it was only a passing curiosity. Thanks for sharing.

Doug
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 167
| author = GOLDENOAK2
| date = on 08/28/2015 09:21 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!
}}
What happens if ice patch is cast on a prone creature...does it get frozen to the ground...does its head get encased in ice causing it to die?

If it falls face first does it's tongue get stuck to the ground if it tries to cast a spell...

just curious
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1670
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 04/10/2016 10:21 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
Yeah. It's swing was somewhere between 6-9 seconds so maybe it suffered 7 seconds of RT if that is how immolation works now.

I'm still unclear if RT is incurred as part of the initial cast, dropping to the ground and rolling, or what. I'm pretty sure I asked for some clarification on that earlier in this thread.

Also, I hate posting long logs but not sure how else to show the issue / help get it resolved at this point.

-- Robert

Raggler squeakily says, "Muffins are also known to be one of the most healthiest foods in the world."

Raggler squeakily says, "It's a fact."
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1671
| author = MDEVEAU
| date = on 04/10/2016 11:36 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
Working as intended! Phear the power of the firemage!!!
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1672
| author = DRUMPEL
| date = on 04/10/2016 09:29 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>So seriously Estild, what's the scoop here? A full 15 seconds went by after I set the defender on fire and it just completely ignored the spell (this is the disabler version that I am casting in case there is any confusion). Is this working as intended or is there a bug that is hard to nail down? If the spell just isn't going to work (and it is intended) then there should at least be some messaging to this effect.''

Don't feel bad. I've seen similar issue against several minotuar warriors when I was playing around with immolate a month or more back. Magi it worked just fine, the warriors don't stun so maybe that's part of the issue??? I don't really use the spell at all, just wanted to see if it was viable for my wizard (who has zero fire lore). I'd say 99% of the time the spell worked as intended for the evoke version. Almost all the evoke casts I made caused the warrior to drop and roll and burn over 2-3 more casts before I killed them. The odd couple that I successfully hit with evoke immolate they continued to attack like nothing had happened.....

So, I guess the spell is working as intended?

It doesn't matter to my wizard how the spell works (before the nerf or now), but it does seem to be a little broken still. Hopefully they can figure it out.

-Drumpel
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1673
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 04/13/2016 09:06 AM PDT
| subject = Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
The Wizard's Guild has released new information about the previous Ice Patch spell, allowing wizards greater mastery over freezing their opponents. Henceforth, Cold Snap has replaced the previous spell, allowing a wizard to freeze multiple targets in the room simultaneously.

When cast the spell will subject non-grouped targets to a warding. Targets that fail to ward become rooted. The root status effect causes a target to have -50 AS to melee attacks, -25 AS to ranged attacks, and -25 DS (but does not stack with the -DS penalties from other status conditions such as being knocked down). Most importantly, rooted creatures also can't perform maneuvers. The spell will affect up to 4 targets, increasing by +1 per seed 5 summation of Elemental Lore, Water ranks. The duration of the root will be ((warding margin / 5) + 3), capped at 25 seconds.

Casting the spell a second time will completely encase any already affected target that fails to ward in an ice block, immobilizing them and refreshing the duration.

Training in Elemental Lore, Water makes it possible to cast Minor Water (903) at the target, which will be converted to Minor Cold (1709), for a number of casts equivalent to the bonus level of a seed 10 summation of ranks, while still costing 3 mana. This is the same benefit that previously existed under a targeted Ice Patch.

If a target is encased in ice (512x2) and the caster CHANNELs a bolt that causes a rank 5+ impact (505, 510, 1709) critical, there is an (Elemental Lore, Water skill / 3) chance that the target location will shatter, completely destroying it and causing 50% of the target's max health in concussion damage.

If an affected target receives any fire damage (i.e. from 906, 908, 111, etc), the effect ends (since it's melting the ice) and the target receives a steam critical, similar to how trolls react to fire.

GameMaster Estild
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1674
| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 04/13/2016 09:09 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
Is the Water Walking effect still applicable?
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1676
| author = DOUG
| date = on 04/13/2016 09:18 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
Time to go get a bandit bounty and see if hidden creatures are targeted.

And of course, being the evil wizard portrayer I am, if after encasing them, if an escort can simply be walked past them. . .

Doug
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1677
| author = PC1234
| date = on 04/13/2016 10:08 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
If a target is encased in ice (512x2) and the caster CHANNELs a bolt that causes a rank 5+ impact (505, 510, 1709) critical, there is an (Elemental Lore, Water skill / 3) chance that the target location will shatter, completely destroying it and causing 50% of the target's max health in concussion damage.

This is neat, but it should happen on the first cast, not the second. 24 mana to set this up is too much, and wastes too much time. For 33 mana and 9s of cRT I can kill any creature on my Sorcerer. I'm also not forced to channel a follow up spell in offensive stance.

I'm also wondering when you expect people to use this spell over 410. If the target is being encased in ice, wouldn't they be cold? Wouldn't they shiver? You could have at least added RT to the creature based upon warding failure. I don't currently see any reason to use this spell over 410. It's 100% better to put something into RT than to "root" them where they can still attack, and worse, cast spells.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1678
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 04/13/2016 10:18 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>If a target is encased in ice (512x2) and the caster CHANNELs a bolt that causes a rank 5+ impact (505, 510, 1709) critical, there is an (Elemental Lore, Water skill / 3) chance that the target location will shatter, completely destroying it and causing 50% of the target's max health in concussion damage.''

Thanks for the update to the previously useless spell, but this is the weakest mass CS disabler of any of the pures. The entire point of a mass disabler is to immobilize a group of creatures so that they cannot maneuver OR cast, the second being far more important for many areas, and this is something all of the other CS based disablers can achieve.

I also agree 24 mana and 6 seconds of setup is too much, especially considering wizards have no CS booster that affects this such as 340. By the time you're in offensive and CHANNELing for 3 seconds of hard RT, at least 9 seconds of the maximum 25 will be gone. And for most creatures that one is trying to immobilize in the first place, the warding margin won't be sufficient enough to guarantee much more than that amount of time.

Secondly, does the above quote mean that 505 now falls under the impact table instead of unbalance, or is that just an exception for use with this spell?
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1679
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 04/13/2016 10:20 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>If a target is encased in ice (512x2) and the caster CHANNELs a bolt that causes a rank 5+ impact (505, 510, 1709) critical, there is an (Elemental Lore, Water skill / 3) chance that the target location will shatter, completely destroying it and causing 50% of the target's max health in concussion damage.''

Ironically, if one is optimized in the Major Elemental circle to be able to use this spell, one is likely to be heavily trained in fire lore as well to get some use out of the crippled 519. Which leaves no room for water lore, so this benefit is completely moot. The spread of lores all over the place for a single spell results in mediocrity of every spell and across the board.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 168
| author = ERYKK2
| date = on 08/28/2015 09:23 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!
}}
I really wish that you could freeze a target with sufficient warding end-roll and water lore and then shatter them using impact attacks (i.e. Tonis Bolt).512 + 505 (17 mana) to have the effect of spells like 717 where if the warding is sufficiently high enough, in 2 casts you can shatter an opponent. That would be an amazing Ice Mage playstyle and super fun, very dynamic, and would allow for a lot of end-game diversity.Food for thought!

I really like this idea. A "water mage" shouldn't be any less combat effective than a "fire mage".
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1680
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 04/13/2016 10:24 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>If a target is encased in ice (512x2) and the caster CHANNELs a bolt that causes a rank 5+ impact (505, 510, 1709) critical, there is an (Elemental Lore, Water skill / 3) chance that the target location will shatter, completely destroying it and causing 50% of the target's max health in concussion damage.''

Also, it seems strange that the follow up requires the use of a single-target spell when the entire point of using a mass disabler is because there are crowd issues.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1681
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 04/13/2016 10:36 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
This worked out not at all in bandits, by the way. It prevented them from doing exactly nothing besides going back into hiding. This was all over the span of about 10 seconds for 2 casts during which point both old and new bandits kept swinging away.

[Teras Isle, Crossroads]
A few ramshackle structures have been thrown up here, most little more than leather tents pitched by fishermen to protect their skiffs and nets during the winter. The Hog's Pen Tavern with its walls of stacked tanik logs is the sturdiest structure in sight. At the rear of the tavern, there is a pile of refuse and a trough that overflows with left-over meals and rain water. The sounds of a bustling town echo down the best-kept of the various roads and paths that meet here. You also see a dwarven thug.
Also here: X, XX
Obvious paths: northeast, east, west
Your blue and white penguin followed.
J>A half-krolvin brigand leaps out of his hiding place!
A half-krolvin brigand swings a broadsword at X!
AS: +445 vs DS: +452 with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +92 = +114
... and hits for 3 points of damage!
Tap to the arm pricks some interest but not much else.
J>A giantman outlaw leaps out of his hiding place!
A giantman outlaw swings a handaxe at XX!
AS: +444 vs DS: +277 with AvD: +23 + d100 roll: +40 = +230
... and hits for 15 points of damage!
Bones in left arm crack.
J>pre 512
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cold Snap...
Your spell is ready.
J>cas
You gesture.
An airy mist rolls into the area, carrying a harsh chill with it.
CS: +539 - TD: +429 + CvA: -1 + d100: +52 == +161
Warding failed!
The mist leaves a half-krolvin brigand's lower half encased in a thick block of ice.
CS: +539 - TD: +424 + CvA: -10 + d100: +69 == +174
Warding failed!
The mist leaves a giantman outlaw's lower half encased in a thick block of ice.
CS: +539 - TD: +444 + CvA: -10 + d100: +53 == +138
Warding failed!
The mist leaves a dwarven thug's lower half encased in a thick block of ice.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
J>A giantman highwayman leaps out of his hiding place!
A giantman highwayman swings a mace at XX!
AS: +435 vs DS: +271 with AvD: +18 + d100 roll: +89 = +271
... and hits for 15 points of damage!
Neck vertebrae snap.
He is stunned!
J>A dwarven thug removes a plain wooden arrow from in his quiver.
A dwarven thug fires a plain wooden arrow at X!
AS: +417 vs DS: +505 with AvD: +34 + d100 roll: +80 = +26
A clean miss.
The wooden arrow breaks apart and crumbles away.
J>A human rogue leaps out of her hiding place!
[Roll result: 74 (open d100: 72)]
A human rogue feints low, but XX isn't fooled for a second.
J>pre 512
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cold Snap...
Your spell is ready.
J>cas
You gesture.
An airy mist rolls into the area, carrying a harsh chill with it.
CS: +539 - TD: +429 + CvA: -10 + d100: +30 == +130
Warding failed!
The mist leaves a human rogue's lower half encased in a thick block of ice.
CS: +539 - TD: +444 + CvA: 0 + d100: +37 == +132
Warding failed!
The mist leaves a giantman highwayman's lower half encased in a thick block of ice.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
J>A giantman highwayman swings a mace at XX!
Unable to focus clearly, XX blindly evades the attack!
J>A half-krolvin brigand swings a broadsword at X!
AS: +395 vs DS: +662 with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +83 = -155
A clean miss.
J>A giantman outlaw swings a handaxe at XX!
AS: +394 vs DS: +532 with AvD: +23 + d100 roll: +80 = -35
A clean miss.
J>A dwarven thug removes a plain wooden arrow from in his quiver.
A dwarven thug fires a plain wooden arrow at X!
AS: +417 vs DS: +515 with AvD: +34 + d100 roll: +68 = +4
A clean miss.
The wooden arrow breaks apart and crumbles away.
J>A human rogue swings a bastard sword at XX!
XX skillfully blocks the attack with his shield!
J>A giantman highwayman swings a mace at XX!
Amazingly, XX manages to block the attack with his shield!
J>A dwarven thug pulls out a small statue and rubs it!
A faint silvery glow surrounds a dwarven thug.
J>The block of ice encasing a dwarven thug's lower half melts away.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1682
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 04/13/2016 10:42 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''> Also, it seems strange that the follow up requires the use of a single-target spell when the entire point of using a mass disabler is because there are crowd issues.''

It seems to me that there might be a spell that does something that works with this problem...

~ Konacon
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1683
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 04/13/2016 10:48 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>It seems to me that there might be a spell that does something that works with this problem...''

515 does not work when you have to CHANNEL a single-target bolt for 3 seconds of hard RT.

Regardless, the rootedness lasted barely over 10 seconds in total and did absolutely nothing. The above poster was correct that 410 is by far the superior solution to this as even though it's not guaranteed, it's guaranteed to do something that actually immobilizes a group by putting them in RT. If your point was to provide a mass CS disabler that does nothing, you succeeded. For what was requested, an effective CS-based mass disabler to compensate for all the luck rolls, this is not it.

I don't actually see how this is any less useless than Ice Patch after seeing it in practice.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1684
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 04/13/2016 10:49 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''> 515 does not work when you have to CHANNEL a single-target bolt for 3 seconds of hard RT.''

I wasn't talking about 515.

~ Konacon
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1685
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 04/13/2016 10:54 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>I wasn't talking about 515.''

The announcement wording seemed to indicate that 518 wouldn't apply here, but it's good if that's not the case. It's still ineffective and useless, however, given the 9 seconds necessary to achieve this effect during which the creatures are still attacking and casting, if it hasn't worn off completely already. Compare that to the instant immobilization (complete maneuver, attack, and casting) of any other mass CS-based disabler that starts at the first second of the cast, and you'll see why this completely misses the point.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1686
| author = DOUG
| date = on 04/13/2016 12:43 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
Ugh.

it appears, based on a quick scan of the log, like there may be two or three defects in the spell.

1) -50 AS? Doesn't seem to be in play - but might be the fact that I only quickly scanned, rather than calculating.

2) The spell seems to target first 'unrooted' creatures. I see no attempt to 'fully encase' those bandits already 'rooted'.

3) The 'mist rolling into the area' doesn't seem to be able to target hidden NPCs (ugh!).

Doug
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1687
| author = KITHUS
| date = on 04/13/2016 12:54 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
It's a nice addition and another incentive for water mages. Thanks Konacon. Although I have to say I hate you because it's making the decision not to hunt with my wizard harder and harder.

Keith/Brinret/Shiun

Brinret says, "Bring it on."
A bolt of lightning streaks down from the sky and strikes Brinret!
... 16428101 points of damage!
Powerful blast reduces Brinret to a smoldering pile of ash!
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1688
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 04/13/2016 01:13 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
DougThe spell seems to target first 'unrooted' creatures. I see no attempt to 'fully encase' those bandits already 'rooted'.

This was a tough situation as in some cases you might want to first recast the spell to try to root anything missed the first time. Other times you might want to recast just to completely freeze (immobilize) any already affected targets. So, to give you some control over it, if you open cast (don't specify a target), the spell will first try to find any targets that aren't already affected and will root them. However, if you cast the spell at a target that is already affected by the spell, it will then try to find other targets that are also already affected and fully freeze them as well.

DougThe 'mist rolling into the area' doesn't seem to be able to target hidden NPCs (ugh!).

It was affecting hidden and invisible targets, it just wasn't revealing them, which was a bug. It should now reveal them if they fail to ward the spell.

GameMaster Estild
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1689
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 04/13/2016 01:24 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''> It's a nice addition and another incentive for water mages. Thanks Konacon.''

Not me! Estild did this!

~ Konacon
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 169
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 08/28/2015 09:23 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!
}}
''>>A Grimswarm troll guard shudders as the mist begins to restrict its movements. (+3 to +7 seconds RT)''

How would that be anything but a 12 mana, warding based version of 504?
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1690
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 04/13/2016 01:32 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>It was affecting hidden and invisible targets, it just wasn't revealing them, which was a bug. It should now reveal them if they fail to ward the spell.''

It still doesn't.

Also, it's essentially useless. It doesn't stop them from attacking or casting and you know what's better than -50 AS... -50 DS, which a knockdown achieves via 410. Only neither are useful or reliable still in an uphunting scenario, which is precisely what a CS-based mass disabler was supposed to address.

[Teras Isle, Volcanic Slope]
Rough rock claws like an angry beast and the slope quickly steepens. The island stands out below you like a map upon a table: the dark green jumble of the Greymist, the lighter tones of the grasslands, and the deep blue of the surrounding sea. You also see a hardened lava bed.
Also here: X, XX
Obvious paths: down
Your blue and white penguin followed.
A human outlaw suddenly leaps from his hiding place!
A half-elven brigand suddenly leaps from his hiding place!
A halfling outlaw suddenly leaps from his hiding place!
J>XX's group just entered a hardened lava bed.
[Teras Isle, Hardened Lava Bed]
A small canyon runs down the mountain side. Hardened lava fills it almost completely, providing a natural road that is welcome after the harsh rock below. The air is thick with the smell of sulfur and yellow clouds rise fitfully from somewhere above. This is one bed that nobody is likely to be sleeping in.
Also here: X, XX
Obvious paths: out
Your blue and white penguin followed.
J>XX's group just went out.
[Teras Isle, Volcanic Slope]
Rough rock claws like an angry beast and the slope quickly steepens. The island stands out below you like a map upon a table: the dark green jumble of the Greymist, the lighter tones of the grasslands, and the deep blue of the surrounding sea. You also see a halfling outlaw, a half-elven brigand, a human outlaw and a hardened lava bed.
Also here: X, XX
Obvious paths: down
Your blue and white penguin followed.
J>You feel at full magical power again.
J>A half-elven brigand swings a broadsword at XX!
AS: +428 vs DS: +480 with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +98 = +75
A clean miss.
J>[Roll result: 170 (open d100: 69)]
A human outlaw reaches out and grabs at the end of XX's nose!
XX howls in pain as a human outlaw tweaks her nose!
J>inc 512
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cold Snap...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a halfling outlaw.
An airy mist rolls into the area, carrying a harsh chill with it.
CS: +539 - TD: +444 + CvA: -10 + d100: +7 == +92
Warded off!
The mist leaves a thin layer of ice on a halfling outlaw's lower half, but he easily shakes it off.
CS: +539 - TD: +399 + CvA: -10 + d100: +89 == +219
Warding failed!
The mist leaves a half-elven brigand's lower half encased in a thick block of ice.
CS: +539 - TD: +424 + CvA: -2 + d100: +83 == +196
Warding failed!
The mist leaves a human outlaw's lower half encased in a thick block of ice.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
J>X looks determined and focused.
In a breathtaking display of ability and combat mastery, X whirls in a fury of unrelenting strikes and ripostes!
X swings a monir-hafted eahnor fang at a halfling outlaw!
AS: +493 vs DS: +358 with AvD: +37 + d100 roll: +78 = +250
... and hits for 40 points of damage!
Mighty blow cracks several ribs.
X swings a monir-hafted eahnor fang at a half-elven brigand!
AS: +493 vs DS: +293 with AvD: +37 + d100 roll: +31 = +268
... and hits for 42 points of damage!
Large gash to the left arm, several muscles torn.
The half-elven brigand is stunned!
X swings a monir-hafted eahnor fang at a human outlaw!
AS: +493 vs DS: +320 with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +84 = +286
... and hits for 66 points of damage!
Solid blow gouges a chunk out of the human outlaw's left leg.
The human outlaw is stunned!
J>A halfling outlaw slips into hiding.
J>inc 512
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cold Snap...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a human outlaw.
An airy mist rolls into the area, carrying a harsh chill with it.
CS: +539 - TD: +399 + CvA: -10 + d100: +64 == +194
Warding failed!
The mist builds upon the existing thick block of ice, expanding it to cover a half-elven brigand's entire body, trapping him in an icy tomb.
CS: +539 - TD: +424 + CvA: -2 + d100: +49 == +162
Warding failed!
The mist builds upon the existing thick block of ice, expanding it to cover a human outlaw's entire body, trapping him in an icy tomb.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

J>A halfling outlaw leaps out of his hiding place!
[Roll result: 110 (open d100: 33)]
A halfling outlaw kicks his leg at XX's groin and connects! For just a moment, XX's face goes entirely motionless.
...9 damage!
J>A human outlaw struggles against the forces that bind him.
J>X swings a monir-hafted eahnor fang at a halfling outlaw!
AS: +493 vs DS: +358 with AvD: +37 + d100 roll: +48 = +220
... and hits for 34 points of damage!
Mighty blow cracks several ribs.
J>The block of ice encasing a human outlaw melts away.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1691
| author = DOUG
| date = on 04/13/2016 02:03 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
Excellent, Estild - appreciate the clarification, and the fix!

I'm not terribly concerned (yet) about the costs associated with immobilize (24) especially when compared to Bind, at 14 - which only affects a single target.

Sadly, I'll likely continue to prefer Call Wind for bandits, but. . . I have options!

What I really, really need is a way to keep them pesky destroyers from maneuvering.

Doug
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1692
| author = DOUG
| date = on 04/13/2016 02:13 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>>It still doesn't.''

As you continue to gather live field intelligence, and if the situation should present again - can you do a quick 'search' to see if you can find the hidden NPC and if it was affected? Curiosity, mostly - I'd rather the 'hiding' be broken. But it might help troubleshoot the problem.

Doug
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1693
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 04/13/2016 02:16 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>I'm not terribly concerned (yet) about the costs associated with immobilize (24) especially when compared to Bind, at 14 - which only affects a single target.''

I don't consider this an option. Also, 316 is only 16 mana for a much more powerful effect. This doesn't even do the job of 410. It's not even so much the cost though as the 6 seconds of CT just to set up for the kill, during which time the creatures are actually not disabled in any way except maneuvers.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1694
| author = HJELTE
| date = on 04/13/2016 02:19 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
I'd say this is a clearly beneficial adjustment, and filling a great niche for a CS disabler.

Thank you for the birthday gift Estild!

~Whirlin
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Hoo boy, here comes ELR part deux, "The Underwhelming."
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| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
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''>>I don't consider this an option. ''

I hear ya.

''>>Also, 316 is only 16 mana for a much more powerful effect. ''

It's also comparing a profession to non profession based list. I know many don't agree with me on this point, but that doesn't make it inaccurate. I do note, however, the interesting dual nature of the Censure spell. It's a valid point that I'm now just a bit envious. . .

''>>This doesn't even do the job of 410. ''

Against bandits, perhaps not. I see other uses, though. Not enough to simply say 'it works!' or 'it doesn't work!', since I haven't tested. But I do see possibilities. Let's run the gamut of other creature types first. For example, I'll tell you using 410 against crawlers is not a winning overall strategy, nor frankly is call wind. However, I was quite happy with the old Ice Patch against crawlers, because of the 'rooting'. Just one example.

''>>It's not even so much the cost though as the 6 seconds of CT just to set up for the kill, during which time the creatures are actually not disabled in any way except maneuvers.''

I've seen this a couple times - a quick note of correction seems to be in order. It's 3 seconds of CT during which the NPC is disabled from maneuvers and at significant minuses for AS, Bolt and DS. CS remains unaffected. At the start of the subsequent 3 seconds of CT (the second cast) those that fail are immobilized. So no - in fact they don't stay totally active, nor do they stay totally active 6 seconds.

I put 'setting up for the kill' in a different bucket, though - so not trying to address that side of the dissatisfaction.

Doug
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| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
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I just fixed another issue where the spell wasn't correctly picking up additional targets when mixing non-rooted and rooted targets. e.g. you would cast the spell and it could affect up to 4 targets. If there were 7 creatures in the room and your first cast caught 4 of them, the second cast would then only root the remaining 3, but should have also immobilized one of the first four (since it can affect up to 4 targets per cast).

GameMaster Estild
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| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 04/13/2016 02:36 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
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''>can you do a quick 'search' to see if you can find the hidden NPC and if it was affected?''

Didn't work. Also, having fire based spells "melt" the ice is exceptionally group unfriendly given the other pures generally use 111 as a group spell.
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| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
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I can certainly remove the ice > fire > steam interaction, if there is a consensus. It's there for flavor and extra damage, not as any attempt to weaken the spell.

GameMaster Estild
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = DEANSMITH
| date = on 08/28/2015 09:32 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!
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''>How would that be anything but a 12 mana, warding based version of 504?''

Was slow updated to immediately put a target into up to 7 seconds of RT?

The point should be to debilitate the target with root and maintain the advantage so that you have a chance use the major cold perk without being attacked first, like in the example you posted.
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| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
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''>>Didn't work. Also, having fire based spells "melt" the ice is exceptionally group unfriendly given the other pures generally use 111 as a group spell.''

Looks like Estild might have just got to that.

And I was giving some thought to exactly the problem with fire as you expressed.

As a suggestion for future improvement (along the lines of the continued 'choose your element' improvement suggestions), perhaps we could be granted a way to have

Stone (rock gathers, rock immobilizes, boulder shatters)

Air (cone encases, cone immobilizes, Tonis bolt smears)

Fire (lava encases, lava immobilizes, Boil Earth / Immolate / Minor / Major Fire roasts)

Doug
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| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
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''>>It's there for flavor and extra damage, not as any attempt to weaken the spell.''

That might work, too - or, how about bringing in the Censure method of moving through thresholds.

Encased plus fire = free but with extra damage

Immobilized plus fire = encased but with extra damage.

Doug
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| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
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''>I can certainly remove the ice > fire > steam interaction, if there is a consensus. It's there for flavor and extra damage, not as any attempt to weaken the spell.''

I would rather the double 512 fully encase and immobilize the creatures, since I don't know how something can still attack, cast, or buff itself up via other means if the entire body is supposed to be encased in ice. This still doesn't address the issue of the duration being too short after taking 6 seconds to set up, but it would be a start.

By the way, bandits are the weakest capped creatures, so if I can barely survive a hunt with 512 as a mass disabler, I'm certainly not going to be the one to go testing 512 with any other post-cap creatures.

People use mass disablers to disable, not for flavor or extra damage, unless it does both disable and damage. I would actually rather it be moved to 535 and be similar to 135 in effectiveness and lethality since 535 is completely useless now and can go to 512 instead.
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| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
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''>I put 'setting up for the kill' in a different bucket, though - so not trying to address that side of the dissatisfaction.''

I don't see "setting up for the kill" as serving any purpose though if it's not completely effective. By setting up it means it must fully immobilize the creatures (spell, maneuvers) on a guaranteed basis, otherwise there is no reason for me to not just gamble anyway and go ahead for the kill. There is no niche scenario where I would use a disabler that is 99% likely to do nothing effective anyway, especially for your crawler scenario. Pretty much in any situation that is actually dangerous, the minimal disabling effects would be unlikely to take hold or would wear off before any offensive action could be taken against the crowd.
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| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
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''>I would rather the double 512 fully encase and immobilize the creatures, since I don't know how something can still attack, cast, or buff itself up via other means if the entire body is supposed to be encased in ice.''

I had figured this would be the case until I had a seer cast at me and stun me even though I had him completely frozen in ice...
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| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
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''>>I had figured this would be the case until I had a seer cast at me and stun me even though I had him completely frozen in ice...''

Yeah, if that's happening, I'll bet that should be a defect. Might still be a few of those lingering. Immobilized shouldn't lead to anything other than some vocalizations and the like.

Doug
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| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
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''>> By setting up it means it must fully immobilize the creatures (spell, maneuvers) on a guaranteed basis,''

Thanks for clarifying. To me, that's 'fully disabling the creature', not 'setting up for the kill'. I can provide examples, but it's really just a minor clarification point - I see your perspective even if I still am of the opinion that nothing should be 'absolute'.

Doug
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| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 04/13/2016 03:15 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
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''>This was a tough situation as in some cases you might want to first recast the spell to try to root anything missed the first time. Other times you might want to recast just to completely freeze (immobilize) any already affected targets. So, to give you some control over it, if you open cast (don't specify a target), the spell will first try to find any targets that aren't already affected and will root them. However, if you cast the spell at a target that is already affected by the spell, it will then try to find other targets that are also already affected and fully freeze them as well''

I'm assuming EVOKE currently has no use with this spell, so why not make it so open cast goes after unrooted targets first, and EVOKE targets rooted stuff first?

I think having to cast it twice to encase something is a bit much though, at least when dealing with single targets. I think a better approach would be to only require one cast for single target, and for multiple targets either let the required casts be reduced to 1 either via training, or give any endroll over 150 the 2x cast effect. It's not so much about mana (well I mean it is, but yeah) as it is about time. As already stated, ewave is still better in multi-target situations, as it drops their DS (I don't know how the numbers work out for +50 to endroll vs. rank 5 crit + water lore to shatter a body part, but I'd imagine they'd be similar) and puts them in RT preventing all actions for 10 mana vs 24 for 512. It's cheaper, safer, and gives you a nice addition to your endroll.

I'm not a fan of water lore being required for the shatter part since a boulder smashing into a block of ice shouldn't matter. Maybe instead, let the shatter effect do more concussion damage when Minor Cold is used and/or require a lower crit threshold, as water lore is required to cast that spell, and leave 505/510 shatters as is but without the lore requirement.

I like the concept and synergy the spell brings, but the costs and time investment are too high compared to what we already have with no lore requirement, and for roughly half the mana cost and setup time.

One thing that will always keep this spell inferior though is its complete and total uselessness against non-crittable targets, even if you just wanted to use it for the concussion damage, as 512 does literally nothing vs non-crittable targets (ewave usually doesn't work vs these targets either, but call wind does on a lot of them), and there are tons of non-crittables at cap. I wouldn't mind seeing the spell still work on those critters for the concussion damage, even if that's all you get from it. Cold mages are already useless vs most undead, and this spell has no use at all vs anything that doesn't crit, undead or otherwise. I always thought having stuff that doesn't crit in this game was stupid anyway, but that's a whole different subject for another folder that would be pointless to bring up anyway.

I know that applies to a lot of spells for any class, but the difference is this spell requires a dedicated water lore training path with some seed 10 thrown into the mix to take full advantage of, and water currently has the least overall combat effectiveness compared to the other elements, leaving little to no incentive to give up fire or air lore in favor of this while only being able to 2x lores.

I'm sure more stuff is coming though so I'm aware that that could all change, but this spell has no use at all vs anything non-crittable and that will always be a detriment to this spell that doesn't apply to most other spells.

I think a few tweaks could bring this spell from "I guess it's better than Ice Patch" to "This spell is omg omg omg omg!"

~ Methais
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| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
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''>Stone (rock gathers, rock immobilizes, boulder shatters)''

''>Air (cone encases, cone immobilizes, Tonis bolt smears)''

''>Fire (lava encases, lava immobilizes, Boil Earth / Immolate / Minor / Major Fire roasts)''

That's another thing I was hoping would become a thing. Instead of a spell being tied to one element, let the spell's chosen element be tied to your training. Similar to 415/518, where you can either cast a random element or your attuned element. Except tie it to lore training instead of attunement, because attunement is stupid and stuff and can't be changed.

~ Methais
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| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = OM1E5GA
| date = on 08/28/2015 09:42 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!
}}
''''

I don't really have an opinion on whether or not 512 should do this since I don't have a wizard.... but dragging folk across Maelstrom Bay with it would just be a waste of mana (unless you intend on dragging bodies from town out into the wilds for some reason, but you'd still have to get them up the trail). Just drag the body into the bay and it will wash up onto the dock on the other side in a minute or so (might have to roll the body down the trail into the bay, it's been a long time since I brought a body to town without using spells or Voln).

It WOULD be useful for dragging bodies though marshy areas that incur a RT if you walk through them without 112 up though.... like the area outside the Keep or in Vipershroud.

Starchitin

A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
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| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
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PCOFFEY77I had figured this would be the case until I had a seer cast at me and stun me even though I had him completely frozen in ice...

If this is happening, please post a complete log the situation.

GameMaster Estild
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''>If this is happening, please post a complete log the situation''

An ithzir seer just arrived.

An ithzir seer says, "I think the cooldown for Rapid Fire should be removed."


~ Methais
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| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
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I do have to say, this is kind of fun...

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cold Snap...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an Ithzir scout.
An airy mist rolls into the area, carrying a harsh chill with it.
CS: +504 - TD: +457 + CvA: +25 + d100: +32 == +104
Warding failed!
The mist builds upon the existing thick block of ice, expanding it to cover a war griffin's entire body, trapping it in an icy tomb.
CS: +504 - TD: +440 + CvA: +19 + d100: +75 == +158
Warding failed!
The mist builds upon the existing thick block of ice, expanding it to cover an Ithzir adept's entire body, trapping him in an icy tomb.
CS: +504 - TD: +444 + CvA: +19 + d100: +53 == +132
--- Lich: exec1 has exited.
Warding failed!
The mist builds upon the existing thick block of ice, expanding it to cover an Ithzir seer's entire body, trapping him in an icy tomb.
CS: +504 - TD: +365 + CvA: +9 + d100: +92 == +240
Warding failed!
The mist builds upon the existing thick block of ice, expanding it to cover an Ithzir scout's entire body, trapping her in an icy tomb.
CS: +504 - TD: +450 + CvA: +19 + d100: +38 == +111
Warding failed!
The mist builds upon the existing thick block of ice, expanding it to cover an Ithzir seer's entire body, trapping him in an icy tomb.
CS: +504 - TD: +377 + CvA: -2 + d100: +62 == +187
Warding failed!
The mist builds upon the existing thick block of ice, expanding it to cover an Ithzir janissary's entire body, trapping him in an icy tomb.
CS: +504 - TD: +453 + CvA: +19 + d100: +52 == +122
Warding failed!
The mist builds upon the existing thick block of ice, expanding it to cover an Ithzir adept's entire body, trapping him in an icy tomb.
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''>If this is happening, please post a complete log the situation.''

I went and tried it out again and everything seemed to be working correctly...

An Ithzir seer struggles to move. Finding her actions fruitless, she looses an eerily echoing shout! "Itona ti! Te lanak mtor!"

Maybe I just missed where it melted off?
{{saved post
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| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
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One other note I forgot to mention. If a target is drenched from the Minor Water (903 or 518) lore effect or if you cast the spell in a watery room, the affected target(s) get -25 TD.

GameMaster Estild
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| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
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''>One other note I forgot to mention. If a target is drenched from the Minor Water (903 or 518) lore effect or if you cast the spell in a watery room, the affected target(s) get -25 TD.''

Does it work on undead and can creatures cast if encased in a block of ice?
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''>One other note I forgot to mention. If a target is drenched from the Minor Water (903 or 518) lore effect or if you cast the spell in a watery room, the affected target(s) get -25 TD.''

Are there any plans to make this spell (or any possible incoming cold based spells) have use vs. non-crittable targets?

~ Methais
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| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
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''>I can certainly remove the ice > fire > steam interaction, if there is a consensus. It's there for flavor and extra damage, not as any attempt to weaken the spell.''

Thanks for fixing the encasing issue. The bandits are now properly entombed if warded twice, though 4 targets is not many and again a 4-way lore split is too much to expect. 135 and 214 do not require lores to hit a certain number of targets, and 316 uses religion lore, which is the same as the offensive attack, so the SLR yields synergies that the ELR does not.

I would prefer that the ice > fire > steam interaction be removed, as I don't feel the minor (~10 point) damage from the steam flares do anything to offset the removal of the entombment/immobilization.
{{saved post
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| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
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''>I just fixed another issue where the spell wasn't correctly picking up additional targets when mixing non-rooted and rooted targets. e.g. you would cast the spell and it could affect up to 4 targets. If there were 7 creatures in the room and your first cast caught 4 of them, the second cast would then only root the remaining 3, but should have also immobilized one of the first four (since it can affect up to 4 targets per cast).''

I would rather in this scenario that the second cast first immobilize the first 4 before rooting the remaining 3, as 7 creatures that still attack and cast is far worse than 3 remaining that do so.
{{saved post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!
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''<>''

Hmm. Didn't know this mechanic existed...I always got stumped trying to get a body from the area on the other side of the bay...until I mastered Voln.

They need to post a sign...please don't push corpses into bay! or something so you know its possible.
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| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
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DESTINY14I would rather in this scenario that the second cast first immobilize the first 4 before rooting the remaining 3, as 7 creatures that still attack and cast is far worse than 3 remaining that do so.

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Wizards/Major%20Elemental%20Circle/view/1688

Then just cast it directly at one of the targets that are already rooted.

GameMaster Estild
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| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
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''>I would prefer that the ice > fire > steam interaction be removed, as I don't feel the minor (~10 point) damage from the steam flares do anything to offset the removal of the entombment/immobilizatio''

Throwing my name in on this too.

Instead, just make them explode into bits. That'd be much better.

~ Methais
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''>Then just cast it directly at one of the targets that are already rooted.''

That only guarantees that the one target is immobilized while the other 6 are still just rooted. Also, in a big swarm, checking and targeting the right creature will more likely result in your death than just skipping the failed disabler and casting for the kill more times. End result is it doesn't achieve what a disabler is supposed to achieve, in general.
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DESTINY14That only guarantees that the one target is immobilized while the other 6 are still just rooted.

No.

GameMaster Estild
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''>No.''

Anything that can't be set by INCANT to target the same creature(s) and root the first 4 automatically isn't useful in terms of a disabler given how often creatures run in and out while swarming.
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''>No.''

https://www.play.net/simucon/memory/1999/wed/wed003.jpg

~ Methais
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''>An Ithzir seer struggles to move. Finding her actions fruitless, she looses an eerily echoing shout! "Itona ti! Te lanak mtor!"''

I thought about this...

If someone or something is entirely encased in a block of ice, how are they able to speak or do anything? Should almost even suffocate them to death if it lasts long enough. Is it just up to the head?
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
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The water lore is a non-starter because to get this remotely effective, you will be completely useless on every other offensive and defensive level. Talk about a one trick pony, which is what I thought we were getting away from. Instead we're forced into other pony paths that are all mediocre.
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| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!
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Not sure if people are reading both folders but I suggested that:

504 - Gains the RT weapon reduction that 506 currently offers. Includes the currently proposed 506 additions, mana cost scales up 4/8/16/32 for additional casts during the cooldown period. 60s duration, increased by EL:Air ranks in the same way 506 currently is. EL:Earth reduces the cooldown, (or mana cost, or both).

506 changes to:

506 - Loses the RT weapon reduction currently provided, be retains all other benefits currently provided by the spell.

506 speeds up our ability to react to situations.
504 slows down a creatures ability to react to us.

Both would be self-cast only. We're just splitting the offensive ability off from the defensive ability.

It still prevents the 100% uptime that is stated to be a new requirement. It still allows it to be refreshed during the cooldown for additional mana costs. (It increases the mana costs even further if you want to stack offensive & defensive abilities.)

Wizards who want haste for defensive purposes don't lose anything. Warmages who want speedy attacks for offensive purposes lose a tiny bit less mana. It makes it slightly less painful for lower levels, but still heavily prevents that 100% uptime.
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| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
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An ithzir seer just arrived.

An ithzir seer says, "Unlike my fellow seeker, I think the 1 sec casting rt should be removed and I'm good with the cooldown should be removed on Rapid Fire."





Just an elf about town...
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| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
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Overall this looks like a nice improvement over the old spell. Can't wait to give it a go when I have more time to play...

Just an elf about town...
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}}
An ithzir seer just arrived.

An ithzir seer says, "Let it be stated for the record that I am not one of those ugly mid level things from atop that snowy rock you morons call Aenatumgana. I am an ithzir seer. I see things. Like how I see that both Methais and RROY are correct, and I believe both the 1 second RT and the cooldown should go away. But if I had to choose just one, I would go with RROY's suggestion of removing the RT but keeping the cooldown."

~ Methais
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1735
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 04/13/2016 06:17 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
You may now EVOKE Cold Snap (512). Doing so, it will always prefer to hit already affected targets (thus to more easily upgrade the root to an immobile). The previous targeting logic no longer applies.

GameMaster Estild
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1736
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 04/13/2016 06:29 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>You may now EVOKE Cold Snap (512). Doing so, it will always prefer to hit already affected targets (thus to more easily upgrade the root to an immobile). The previous targeting logic no longer applies.''

Thanks for this update.

What about the non-corporeal undead targets that aren't affected by 512? They are also the ones most likely to be present in a watery room where crowd control is an important issue.

It would be better if the follow-up bolt burst effect is based on whatever your attuned element is, interacting with the ice block in a manner similar to 502's vulnerability. In any case, by the time one casts 512 twice and then CHANNELs 518, the room could probably be cleared by other means already.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1737
| author = PCOFFEY77
| date = on 04/13/2016 06:35 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
Not sure if this has been fixed but I saw this in my logs -

Just as you 512, the Ithzir seer shimmers and fades away, leaving you gesturing at nothingness!
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1738
| author = DOUG
| date = on 04/13/2016 07:18 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>>the Ithzir seer shimmers and fades away,''

Ok, that does it!

Estild, wizards and / or sorcerers need a way to reach into these interdimensional pockets all these creatures create and use to punish them severely for thinking they can get away from masters of the elements or masters of the planes.

Brief 1/10th-serious note - instantiated hunting for the best class(es) in the lands!

Doug
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1739
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 04/13/2016 07:23 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>Estild, wizards and / or sorcerers need a way to reach into these interdimensional pockets all these creatures create and use to punish them severely for thinking they can get away from masters of the elements or masters of the planes.''

In all seriousness, instead of the useless "group" invisibility (aka disband), how about having the ability to fade away upon being attacked?
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1740
| author = DOUG
| date = on 04/13/2016 08:03 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>>how about having the ability to fade away upon being attacked?''

Oh yeah. Big picture - you have time wizards (current stack) and planar wizards (parallel spell levels but instead of resetting time or winding back the clock or stopping, you get the fade / reappear / blink / auto-ambush style actions).

Like it.

Doug
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1741
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 04/13/2016 11:39 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
We still have no disabler at all, never mind mass, for things that don't knock down such as non-corporeal undead and that prevent them from casting. As evidenced by Faulkil's posts, 519 isn't working at all as a single target disabler even if those creatures could be warded.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1742
| author = SJOSEPH1
| date = on 04/14/2016 02:17 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
I think the spell might be bugged I have 80 Ranks of water law but spell is only converting 1 minor water cast into minor cold instead of 6. After the first cast I just get normal minor water being used.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1743
| author = PCOFFEY77
| date = on 04/14/2016 05:00 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>I think the spell might be bugged I have 80 Ranks of water law but spell is only converting 1 minor water cast into minor cold instead of 6. After the first cast I just get normal minor water being used.''

Keep an eye on how quickly the stuff melts away... I noticed this when I was going over the logs a bit last night. I thought I had them completely encased yet when I re-read them I noticed it had melted off and that's why it changed to water - for me at least. I'd also ask to maybe take a look at this because the encasement doesn't seem to last very long on many creatures.

I do miss the chance to crit damage though, why did damage have to be removed from the spell?
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1744
| author = KITHUS
| date = on 04/14/2016 05:05 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
I do miss the chance to crit damage though, why did damage have to be removed from the spell?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that a mass disabler that deals good damage as well does not fit into the 12th rank of a major circle. It might be asking way too much but if people are really sad about the loss of the damaging, single-target version of the spell perhaps it could be added back in as a CHANNEL? Just a thought.

Keith/Brinret/Shiun

Brinret says, "Bring it on."
A bolt of lightning streaks down from the sky and strikes Brinret!
... 16428101 points of damage!
Powerful blast reduces Brinret to a smoldering pile of ash!
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1745
| author = PCOFFEY77
| date = on 04/14/2016 05:19 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>It might be asking way too much but if people are really sad about the loss of the damaging, single-target version of the spell perhaps it could be added back in as a CHANNEL?''

That would be nice. The ice encasement was fun for a bit, but now I'm not really enjoying it as much. It melts off way to fast, and there might be a bug as mentioned before with the 903 follow-up casting. I have 50 ranks of water Lore and should be hitting more than once on a recall.

''>incant 512''
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cold Snap...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an Ithzir scout.
An airy mist rolls into the area, carrying a harsh chill with it.
CS: +504 - TD: +377 + CvA: +9 + d100: +27 == +163
Warding failed!
The mist leaves an Ithzir scout's lower half encased in a thick block of ice.
The scintillating silver light surrounding the runestaff fades some.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.



First one's good!

''>incant 903''
Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Water...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an Ithzir scout.
You hurl a stream of water at an Ithzir scout, but it freezes just before impact. Carefully, you summon the chunk of ice back to your hand...
You hurl a chunk of ice at an Ithzir scout!
AS: +494 vs DS: +276 with AvD: +31 + d100 roll: +54 = +303
... and hit for 113 points of damage!
Icy blast takes right arm off at the shoulder!
The scout's crystal-tipped staff falls to the ground.
The Ithzir scout is stunned!
[exec1]>stance defensive

As you hit, your runestaff flares with a bolt of lightning!

... 10 points of damage!
Heavy spark to left arm. Gonna hurt tomorrow.
The scintillating silver light surrounding the runestaff fades some.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

Second one:

''>incant 903''
Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Water...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an Ithzir scout.
You hurl a stream of water at an Ithzir scout!
AS: +495 vs DS: +270 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +65 = +315
... and hit for 132 points of damage!
Blow to chest frees a rib to spear a lung and heart!
[exec1]>stance defensive
The water completely drenches an Ithzir scout!
The scintillating silver light surrounding the runestaff fades some.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

Third, still no block of ice:

''>incant 903''
Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Water...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an Ithzir scout.
You hurl a stream of water at an Ithzir scout!
AS: +496 vs DS: +248 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +92 = +365
... and hit for 103 points of damage!
Strong blow to left arm breaks it!
The Ithzir scout clutches at his wounds as he falls, the life fading from his eyes.
The scintillating silver light surrounding the runestaff fades some.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1746
| author = SJOSEPH1
| date = on 04/14/2016 05:40 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
Still no difference only works on the first cast
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1747
| author = SJOSEPH1
| date = on 04/14/2016 05:44 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
You gesture at a lesser minotaur.
An airy mist rolls into the area, carrying a harsh chill with it.
CS: +417 - TD: +299 + CvA: +8 + d100: +34 == +160
Warding failed!
The mist leaves a lesser minotaur's lower half encased in a thick block of ice.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>stance off ''
You are now in an offensive stance.
''>incant 903''
Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Water...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a lesser minotaur.
You hurl a stream of water at a lesser minotaur, but it freezes just before impact. Carefully, you summon the chunk of ice back to your hand...
You hurl a chunk of ice at a lesser minotaur!
AS: +422 vs DS: +249 with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +76 = +278
... and hit for 105 points of damage!
Massive blow removes the lesser minotaur's left forearm at the elbow!
The lesser minotaur is stunned!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>incant 903''
Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Water...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a lesser minotaur.
You hurl a stream of water at a lesser minotaur!
AS: +422 vs DS: +244 with AvD: +23 + d100 roll: +69 = +270
... and hit for 84 points of damage!
Strong blow to abdomen!
The water completely drenches a lesser minotaur!

Your driftwood staff emits a searing bolt of lightning!

... 15 points of damage!
Mild electric jolt sends the lesser minotaur into spasms.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>incant 903''
Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Water...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a lesser minotaur.
You hurl a stream of water at a lesser minotaur!
AS: +422 vs DS: +235 with AvD: +23 + d100 roll: +35 = +245
... and hit for 70 points of damage!
Hard strike to right arm breaking tendons and bone!
The water completely drenches a lesser minotaur!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
Reeling, a lesser minotaur's eyes loll in their sockets.
''>incant 903''
Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Water...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a lesser minotaur.
You hurl a stream of water at a lesser minotaur!
AS: +422 vs DS: +224 with AvD: +23 + d100 roll: +83 = +304
... and hit for 96 points of damage!
Strong blow to abdomen!
A low gurgling sound comes from deep within the chest of the lesser minotaur as he falls slack against the ground.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>incant 903''
You do not currently have a target.
''>loot ''
''>stow left''
You search the lesser minotaur.
You discard the minotaur's useless equipment.
He didn't carry any silver.
He had nothing of interest.
The strong stench of bovine sweat is all that remains as a lesser minotaur's body decays away.
''>''




your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Physical Fitness...................| 82 18
Arcane Symbols.....................| 170 70
Magic Item Use.....................| 175 75
Spell Aiming.......................| 254 154
Harness Power......................| 254 154
Elemental Mana Control.............| 150 50
Spirit Mana Control................| 96 22
Elemental Lore - Water.............| 180 80
Perception.........................| 74 16
Climbing...........................| 120 30
Swimming...........................| 5 1

Spell Lists
Major Elemental....................| 74

Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 71

Spell Lists
Wizard.............................| 43
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1748
| author = PFLATS
| date = on 04/14/2016 05:49 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>We still have no disabler at all, never mind mass, for things that don't knock down such as non-corporeal undead and that prevent them from casting. As evidenced by Faulkil's posts, 519 isn't working at all as a single target disabler even if those creatures could be warded.''

Perhaps Weapon Fire could be moved to the Arcane Circle and replaced with a disabler that's more effective against creatures?
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1749
| author = KITHUS
| date = on 04/14/2016 05:56 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
Perhaps Weapon Fire could be moved to the Arcane Circle and replaced with a disabler that's more effective against creatures?

I'd love to see Weapon Fire moved to Arcane and 512 moved to the 900s personally.

Keith/Brinret/Shiun

Brinret says, "Bring it on."
A bolt of lightning streaks down from the sky and strikes Brinret!
... 16428101 points of damage!
Powerful blast reduces Brinret to a smoldering pile of ash!
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1750
| author = JOEKRYSTEL
| date = on 04/14/2016 06:49 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
I was thinking, the spell starts at the bottom and freezes up (as it started with ice patch) any chance the frozen solid effect could happen on the first shot if the target is prone? This would make it a nice follow up to my current opening gambit of 410. If it worked but for a shorter duration, I could pick ewave/snap for the safety of rt and then frozen benifits or snap/snap for longer freeze times if I am hunting things that can't ward me while rooted and nt frozen.

Sorry for the formating, posting from my cell.
AIM: GS4Menos

''>Like men we'll face the murderous, cowardly pack,''
''>Pressed to the wall, dying, but fighting back!''
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1751
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 04/14/2016 06:55 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>I'd love to see Weapon Fire moved to Arcane and 512 moved to the 900s personally. ''

512 would be completely useless in the 900s, so you have my veto for this idea.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1753
| author = DOUG
| date = on 04/14/2016 07:50 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>>We still have no disabler at all, never mind mass, for things that don't knock down such as non-corporeal undead and that prevent them from casting.''

This is actually one of the primary reasons I like Call Wind (912). In the case of noncorps, it will 'buffet' them, and I'm pretty sure that acts the same way as knocking them down - with the sole exception of not giving a DS advantage. I even believe (but have no proof to offer) that it affects the noncorp creature's stance, in just the same was as any other.

And the kicker? A vortex, if you're really skilled, keeps them occupied (in RT lock) as long as it is in existence. By the way - that's the same as any flying creature with Call Wind. So, in fact we do have at least one.

Doug


[The Rift]
You notice a vaespilon, an enormous rift crawler and a lost soul.
Obvious paths: east, southwest, northwest
''>''
The flames surrounding an enormous rift crawler flare up violently...
... 15 points of damage!

The flames around an enormous rift crawler continue to burn!
''>incant 912''
A vaespilon draws an ancient sigil in the air.
''>''
Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Call Wind...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an enormous rift crawler.
A gust of wind tugs at your sleeves. Suddenly, a fierce wind rips through the area, scattering everything in its path and making it difficult to remain standing.
A vaespilon is knocked over by the wind.
A lost soul is buffeted by the great wind!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
A vaespilon is suddenly overtaken by a windy vortex!
''>''

Tha-thump.

''>''
A spectral fog rolls through the area.

''>l''
You're now aiming at the left eye of your target when using a ranged weapon, or while ambushing.
''>''
[The Rift]
You notice a windy vortex, a vaespilon (prone), an enormous rift crawler and a lost soul.
Obvious paths: east, southwest, northwest
''>''
An enormous rift crawler charges at you!
You barely dodge the attack!
''>''
[new506]>incant 506
The flames surrounding an enormous rift crawler flare up violently...
... 15 points of damage!

The flames around an enormous rift crawler continue to burn!
''>''
You recite a series of mystical phrases while raising your hands, invoking Celerity...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture.
You suddenly start moving light-footedly.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
[ Celerity: +0:01:00, 0:01:00 remaining. ]
A large flying insect flits unwittingly into a windy vortex, and is promptly sent flying back out. It lands on your watered silk satchel with a loud SPLAT.
A lost soul wanders into the path of a windy vortex!
''>''

Tha-thump.

''>incant 519''
An enormous rift crawler charges at you!
AS: +429 vs DS: + --- with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +66 = - ---
A clean miss.
''>''
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an enormous rift crawler.
CS: + --- - TD: +451 + CvA: +25 + d100: +36 == + ---
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around an enormous rift crawler and it bursts into flame causing 29 points of damage!
As the rift crawler dies, the beast's massive body curls in on itself, convulses once, and stills.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
A large flying insect flits unwittingly into a windy vortex, and is promptly sent flying back out. It lands on your fluffy dandelion with a loud SPLAT.
A lost soul is suddenly overtaken by a windy vortex!
''>''

Tha-thump.

''>l''
[The Rift]
You notice a windy vortex, a vaespilon (prone), an enormous rift crawler (dead) and a lost soul.
Obvious paths: east, southwest, northwest
''>''
A vaespilon points a skeletal finger at you!
CS: +388 - TD: + --- + CvA: +12 + d100: +40 - -5 == - ---
Warded off!
''>target vae''
You are now targeting a vaespilon.
''>''
The windy vortex swirls around one last time, then disappears.
''>''
A vaespilon slowly rises to her feet.
''>incant 519''
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a vaespilon.
CS: + --- - TD: +452 + CvA: +15 + d100: +6 == + ---
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a vaespilon and she bursts into flame causing 2 points of damage!
... 35 points of damage!
Burst of flames to back fries shoulder blades. Youch!
The vaespilon is stunned!
... 30 points of damage!
Burst of flames to left leg burns skin bright red.
... 25 points of damage!
Minor burns to right leg. That hurts a bit.

The flames around a vaespilon continue to burn!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''

Thum-thump.

''>''
You feel more refreshed.
''>''
The wall of force disappears from around a vaespilon.
''>incant 912''
Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Call Wind...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a vaespilon.
A gust of wind tugs at your sleeves. Suddenly, a fierce wind rips through the area, scattering everything in its path and making it difficult to remain standing.
A vaespilon is knocked over by the wind.
A lost soul is buffeted by the great wind!
The wind then subsides.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
You're now aiming at the left eye of your target when using a ranged weapon, or while ambushing.
''>''
The flames surrounding a vaespilon flare up violently...
... 20 points of damage!
Minor burns to right arm. That hurts a bit.

The flames around a vaespilon continue to burn!
''>''

Tha-thump.

''>''
A vaespilon rolls around on the ground, trying to smother the flames that surround it.
''>''
The rift crawler's translucent outer husk melts away, its smoky inner core disappearing in greyed ribbons on the air.
''>''
A vaespilon slowly rises to her feet.
''>''
A lost soul swings a scorched black ball and chain at you!
AS: +420 vs DS: + --- with AvD: +17 + d100 roll: +40 = - ---
A clean miss.
''>''
The flames surrounding a vaespilon flare up violently...
... 25 points of damage!
Minor burns to chest. That hurts a bit.
''>''
incant 912
Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Call Wind...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a vaespilon.
A gust of wind tugs at your sleeves. Suddenly, a fierce wind rips through the area, scattering everything in its path and making it difficult to remain standing.
A vaespilon is knocked over by the wind.
A lost soul is buffeted by the great wind!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
A lost soul wanders into the path of a windy vortex!
''>''

Tha-thump.

''>''
You're now aiming at the left eye of your target when using a ranged weapon, or while ambushing.
''>l''
[The Rift]
You notice a windy vortex, a vaespilon (prone) and a lost soul.
Obvious paths: east, southwest, northwest
''>''
A vaespilon is suddenly overtaken by a windy vortex!
''>incant 519''
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a vaespilon.
CS: + --- - TD: +452 + CvA: +15 + d100: +68 == + ---
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a vaespilon and she bursts into flame causing 57 points of damage!
... 55 points of damage!
You hear a sound like a weeping child as a white glow separates itself from the vaespilon's body as it rises, disappearing into the heavens.
The vaespilon wails in terrifying pain one last time and lies still.
The very powerful look leaves a vaespilon.
The white light leaves a vaespilon.
A vaespilon glances around, looking a bit less confident.
The deep blue glow leaves a vaespilon.
The tingling sensation and sense of security leaves a vaespilon.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around a vaespilon.
The silvery luminescence fades from around a vaespilon.
The bright luminescence fades from around a vaespilon.
The light blue glow leaves a vaespilon.
The powerful look leaves a vaespilon.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''

You should be leaving anytime, now.
A n'ecare pads in silently!
''>''
You're now aiming at the right leg of your target when using a ranged weapon, or while ambushing.
''>''
A windy vortex bends and twists as it swirls around the area.
A lost soul wanders into the path of a windy vortex!
''>''
A n'ecare swings a long blackened jeddart-axe at you!
AS: +386 vs DS: + --- with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +18 = - ---
A clean miss.
''>''
You suddenly feel less light-footed.
''>''
[new506]>incant 506

Tha-thump.

''>''
You recite a series of mystical phrases while raising your hands, invoking Celerity...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture.
You suddenly start moving light-footedly.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
[ Celerity: +0:01:00, 0:01:00 remaining. ]
loot
You search the vaespilon.
You discard the vaespilon's useless equipment.
She didn't carry any silver.
She had nothing of interest.

[You have been awarded an Enhancive Pause Pass! You will be able to pause the beneficial effects of your enhancive items and prevent charge loss 1 time.]

All the malice and magic that once held the vaespilon together dissipates, leaving nothing but a husk which crumbles to dust.
''>The windy vortex swirls around one last time, then disappears.''
''>''
A n'ecare swings a long blackened jeddart-axe at you!
AS: +386 vs DS: + --- with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +62 = - ---
A clean miss.
''>l''
[The Rift]
You notice a n'ecare and a lost soul.
Obvious paths: east, southwest, northwest
''>incant 912''
Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Call Wind...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a lost soul.
A gust of wind tugs at your sleeves. Suddenly, a fierce wind rips through the area, scattering everything in its path and making it difficult to remain standing.
A n'ecare is knocked over by the wind.
A lost soul is buffeted by the great wind!
The wind then subsides.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
You're now aiming at the left eye of your target when using a ranged weapon, or while ambushing.
''>''

Tha-thump.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1754
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 04/14/2016 08:03 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>I'd love to see Weapon Fire moved to Arcane and 512 moved to the 900s personally. ''

If this were to happen, it would need to be part of a complete spell overhaul. Otherwise all this would do is force you to split your CS, as is the case with 415 builds currently.

Unless you're cool with not being able to use Mana Leech on anything near your level of course.

~ Methais
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1758
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 04/14/2016 08:35 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
Original Ice Patch:
http://i.imgur.com/F6hSGkx.jpg

Ice Patch 2.0:
http://i.imgur.com/0f1NdOq.jpg

Cold Snap:
http://i.imgur.com/TFRvswT.jpg

Now we just need this:
http://i.imgur.com/OTcJ8jB.png

Which of course critters will target first and have the 2x Cold Snap effect applied to them when they touch it.

But we also need a panic button:
http://i.imgur.com/aChPOa7.jpg

Can we have?

~ Methais
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1759
| author = PCOFFEY77
| date = on 04/14/2016 09:06 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>But we also need a panic button''

I'd love to see "elemental" armor additions instead of just the Stone Shield depending on what Lores we've trained in. Fire would be more offensive and would lash out if hit, ice would slow down an opponent when struck, earth would protect best, and air could, well, I don't know, make us more nimble or allow more spell defense?
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 176
| author = ALUVIUS
| date = on 08/28/2015 11:26 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!
}}
Is it safe to cast electrical spells in a watery room while the water is frozen?



That was my first thought when I read the update. I think that might be a neat addition to the spell, let it deal with more environmental effects like the watery conditions or maybe even condensing the gas out of the air in areas where fire/plasma can explode it.

Going further, this would also be a neat idea for other spells for other elements that would allow a mage specialized in an element to cast a setup spell and gain some neat effects from it .. ie, make Sandstorm useful to an earth lore specializing mage, etc.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1760
| author = JACKBLACK
| date = on 04/14/2016 09:56 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>> Destiny''

Can you stop posting for a like a week? I came here to check out how the spell was doing and everything is buried under your ravings.

''>> Estild''

I'd prefer you not to remove any features like steam crits before people have a good chance to really explore the spell. I think there is a lot of depth here and I would hate for it to be lost before people understand it.

very cool spell!

Thank you.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1762
| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 04/14/2016 09:58 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
bump on my inquiry re the Water Walking effect. Does it still exist?
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1763
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 04/14/2016 10:02 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
I'm not a fan of losing the damage from the initial cast at all. Is there no way we can have this feature back? Before it did damage and froze their bottom half, then we lose the damage now that we can make a second cast to freeze the rest of them. Why not let the damage stay, but only work against targets that aren't frozen at all? Or if keeping them separate is super imperative, maybe allow the damage with a targeted EVOKE, since open EVOKE is used for targeting half frozen stuff first?

In other news, what's up with this freeze duration of like....1 second? These are all against the same crawler in the same room, with no other enemies present. The longest it held for was 5 seconds, but it would usually start moving again in 1-3 seconds. I'm guessing it's wearing off after 1 round. Either way, something's not right.

You gesture at an enormous rift crawler.
An airy mist rolls into the area, carrying a harsh chill with it.
CS: +530 - TD: +451 + CvA: +25 + d100: +96 == +200
Warding failed!
The mist builds upon the existing thick block of ice, expanding it to cover an enormous rift crawler's entire body, trapping it in an icy tomb.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
An enormous rift crawler begins moving again.
''>l''
[The Rift - 12152]
Rain pours from the molten lead sky, and winds whip the ocean into a froth of vicious foam. The waves crash against the rocky shore, upon which rest two immense harps. Entrails take the place of strings, and with each crash of the waves, the harps sing out in a wail of anguish and pain. You also see an enormous rift crawler and the purple Methais disk.
Obvious paths: southwest, west, northwest

''>incant 512''
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cold Snap...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an enormous rift crawler.
An airy mist rolls into the area, carrying a harsh chill with it.
CS: +530 - TD: +451 + CvA: +25 + d100: +37 == +141
Warding failed!
As the mist touches the surface of the thick block of ice encasing an enormous rift crawler, it solidifies, reinforcing the icy tomb.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

incant 512
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cold Snap...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an enormous rift crawler.
An airy mist rolls into the area, carrying a harsh chill with it.
CS: +530 - TD: +451 + CvA: +25 + d100: +73 == +177
Warding failed!
As the mist touches the surface of the thick block of ice encasing an enormous rift crawler, it solidifies, reinforcing the icy tomb.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
An enormous rift crawler begins moving again.
''>''
incant 512
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cold Snap...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an enormous rift crawler.
An airy mist rolls into the area, carrying a harsh chill with it.
CS: +530 - TD: +451 + CvA: +25 + d100: +73 == +177
Warding failed!
As the mist touches the surface of the thick block of ice encasing an enormous rift crawler, it solidifies, reinforcing the icy tomb.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
incant 512
Wait 1 sec.
''>''
incant 512
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cold Snap...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an enormous rift crawler.
An airy mist rolls into the area, carrying a harsh chill with it.
CS: +530 - TD: +451 + CvA: +25 + d100: +43 == +147
Warding failed!
As the mist touches the surface of the thick block of ice encasing an enormous rift crawler, it solidifies, reinforcing the icy tomb.

Necrotic energy from your lor runestaff overflows into you!

You feel energized!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
An enormous rift crawler begins moving again.
''>''
incant 512
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cold Snap...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an enormous rift crawler.
An airy mist rolls into the area, carrying a harsh chill with it.
CS: +545 - TD: +451 + CvA: +25 + d100: +11 == +130
Warding failed!
You feel the unnatural surge of necrotic power wane away.
As the mist touches the surface of the thick block of ice encasing an enormous rift crawler, it solidifies, reinforcing the icy tomb.

Your runestaff resonates with an extremely high-pitched sound and causes your skin and muscles to harden!

Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
An enormous rift crawler begins moving again.
''>''
incant 512

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cold Snap...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an enormous rift crawler.
An airy mist rolls into the area, carrying a harsh chill with it.
CS: +530 - TD: +451 + CvA: +25 + d100: +90 == +194
Warding failed!
As the mist touches the surface of the thick block of ice encasing an enormous rift crawler, it solidifies, reinforcing the icy tomb.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

An enormous rift crawler begins moving again.

~ Methais
Reading wizard nerfs had me like http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1764
| author = JACKBLACK
| date = on 04/14/2016 10:03 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
A few random questions!

Has anyone tried 512/512/518?

Fire attune looks like it could cause steam crits on all. Earth/water may proc the shatter chance!

Do the steam flares only affect FROZEN targets? Or both stages?

Post logs if you got em!


Thanks!
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1765
| author = ZHOUY1
| date = on 04/14/2016 10:15 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>In other news, what's up with this freeze duration of like....1 second? These are all against the same crawler in the same room''

This is typical for rift crawlers against all binding effects.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1766
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 04/14/2016 10:29 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>This is typical for rift crawlers against all binding effects.''

http://i.imgur.com/aoDzPL7.webm

~ Methais
Reading wizard nerfs had me like http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1767
| author = DOUG
| date = on 04/14/2016 10:31 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>>This is typical for rift crawlers against all binding effects.''

Erm. . . ok, but it wasn't the case for 512 pre-update and 'rooted'. That will be a loss I would be very unhappy about, given its utility.

Methias, I didn't notice (and yep, I'm being lazy!) - did the crawlers break the rooted function, or did you go right for entombment?

Doug
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1768
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 04/14/2016 11:07 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>Methias, I didn't notice (and yep, I'm being lazy!) - did the crawlers break the rooted function, or did you go right for entombment?''

I don't think so, but I didn't really test for it, and then I got stuck doing work at work, and now I'm back on the boat to Teras so I can't really go check again.

TLDR: I don't know.

~ Methais

Reading wizard nerfs had me like
http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1769
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 04/14/2016 11:30 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
You should just sleep crawlers instead.

Also, I'd like the steam flare to be removed ASAP as melting the immobilization effect by group 111 defeats the whole purpose of a mass disabler in the first place.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 177
| author = KEITHOBAD
| date = on 08/28/2015 12:33 PM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!
}}
I mean, the utility usage seems ok I guess. And the extra cold hit on cast can only be an improvement (though seeing 15 damage strikes isn't exactly wowing me).

But did you look at the mechanics of this spell at all for the update? The ice patch effect is still awful. I just tried it in arena and let every creature take a swing before I killed them. ONE fell.

ONE out of TWENTY-FIVE.

Is this an acceptable proc rate for 12 mana? Seems just terrible to me.

Do people use the CS version much? To what purpose? The creatures still attack so I don't much see the point.

To me this is one of the spells I always make fun of for being useless, I was kinda hoping that would be fixed with ELR, doesn't look like it (for me).

Suggestions:
-increase the fall rate dramatically.
-add a darkness type effect that lowers physical AS for everything in the room. (-20?) Swinging a weapon while standing on slippery ice sounds pretty hard to me. This would actually be terrible for me, a warmage, but I imagine the casters might find a use for it that way.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1770
| author = DOUG
| date = on 04/14/2016 11:59 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>>You should just sleep crawlers instead.''

I don't generally support 20 mana versus 12 for a single target versus multiple targets and only affects until awoken (by either my attack, or some other helpful NPC in the room) versus a timed duration that I can plan on. Of course, there might be a time or two where I might support it.

Oh! And, multi-NPC sleep would be just ideal, too!

The rooting seems to last rather than be removed like the immobility seems to be in Methias log. Durations seem a bit short, but I'm not stop-watching them. But, Estild - I'd like the 'crawlers deal with all immobility this way' side of this to be considered a bug, perhaps?

And I'll add my voice to the vote that I'd like to play with this a bit more before advocating a removal of a 'feature'. Perhaps a spell other than fire, for a bit?

Doug
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1771
| author = PCOFFEY77
| date = on 04/14/2016 12:05 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>Has anyone tried 512/512/518?''

I use it pretty regularly but don't see the effect because I'm lightning attuned. Wouldn't mind if that was tweaked a bit since lightning and water don't mix well either... And would definitely cause steam... Unless it already does.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1772
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 04/14/2016 12:24 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>I don't generally support 20 mana versus 12 for a single target versus multiple targets and only affects until awoken (by either my attack, or some other helpful NPC in the room) versus a timed duration that I can plan on. Of course, there might be a time or two where I might support it. ''

You have a good point.

''>And I'll add my voice to the vote that I'd like to play with this a bit more before advocating a removal of a 'feature'. Perhaps a spell other than fire, for a bit?''

Do go ahead and play, but non-sorcerer/wizard pures only have 111 as a group hunting option to get credit for things such as bandits. The steam flare only did 1-10 damage that caused no stun or noticeable injury and instead only removed the immobilization feature before the timer was up.

''>512/512/518''

This had very minimal bursting effect and usually the things did not die even from the burst unless it was the correct body part that received a >5 crit. It's luck for the burst, luck for the body part. Once again too much of a slot machine for a lore that provides no synergies with offensive spells, such as religion lore does for 316. Of course, by then I could also have 518/518/518 and caused a much more guaranteed effect.

Generally, mass disablers are needed when the situation is so dangerous that attrition based hunting is not viable. In such cases, such as with non-corporeal undead or other creatures that cast, 512 will not work at all.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1773
| author = CAPTAINVIOLETBEARD
| date = on 04/14/2016 12:40 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
I am glad to see some big changed being made to wizards. Double casting the same spell for different effects is a wierd concept. I would rather see spells that capture their full purpose with 1 command.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1774
| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 04/14/2016 12:49 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
Can 512 be set to evoke? Will that mess up the first cast in any way?
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1775
| author = DOUG
| date = on 04/14/2016 12:53 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>>non-sorcerer/wizard pures only have 111 as a group hunting option to get credit for things such as bandits.''

I just want to be sure I understand the implication here. 111, due to its ability to flare and hit multiple opponents at one cast is the preferred method (11 mana, 3 sec CT), over say 1106 once at each opponent, let's say 4 since we're talking bandits (24 mana, 12 sec CT), or 306 once at each opponent (24 mana, 12 sec CT).

Before asking my question I'll point out that hunting efficiency / quality of gaming experience arguments (saving mana, single shot / multi-effect activities and / or minimizing time) are important to me, but may not be quite the imperative as I sense some others may feel they are.

Now, my question - if that implication above is accurate, is the experience using 111 extending to knock-downs and stuns? I ask because I have to believe that in some measurable percentage of the NPCs knock-downs and stuns would occur. But I certainly don't know what that measurable percentage is. I would argue if it were high (let's say 85% or more of the time, just to put the point out on the table), then I would posit that whether the ice melts or not is really kind of irrelevant.

If, on the other hand, the measurable percentage were low (here, let's say 35% or less of the time, again just to put the point on the table), then I would say retaining the ice is an absolutely critical part of the strategy.

Not using this technique in group hunting myself, I don't have any direct experience. And I can well imagine it isn't guaranteed. But setting aside absolutes for a moment, what would you say the % stunned / knocked down is trending towards in your experience?

Doug
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1776
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 04/14/2016 12:57 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>Not using this technique in group hunting myself, I don't have any direct experience. And I can well imagine it isn't guaranteed. But setting aside absolutes for a moment, what would you say the % stunned / knocked down is trending towards in your experience?''

I'm not going to be wasting my time gathering that kind of data because it's irrelevant to the fact that 512/512 is currently a poor hunting tactic in a group setting because the immobilization can be instantly removed by someone else's cast. I'm not going to tell other friends not to use certain spells because it's inconvenient, but the 410 method is far superior for getting credit and creating the desired immobilization effect that prevents the creatures from doing anything. The point is the wizard has nothing to offer anyone in terms of mass disabling other than 410 that lasts for any semi-guaranteed period of time, and that doesn't work while uphunting or on non-corporeal undead.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1777
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 04/14/2016 12:59 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>I would posit that whether the ice melts or not is really kind of irrelevant.''

The point is that the steam "flares" that cause 1-10 damage are irrelevant to any kill result but only serves to reduce the immobilization. You're basically gaining nothing for giving up the immobilization. Not a single one of the flares even caused a stun or major injury.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1778
| author = PFLATS
| date = on 04/14/2016 01:10 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>I'm not going to tell other friends not to use certain spells because it's inconvenient''

But that's how Gemstone works.

If an Empath casts Sympathy while a Cleric casts Divine Wrath, the Wrath won't hit sympathetic creatures.

If a bard sings Tonis while a wizard casts Haste or Celerity, well actually I've lost track of how those interact these days but I'm sure they still clash somewhere.

I'm too tired to think of other examples, but I know they're out there.

Yeah, it's annoying that Empaths and Clerics only get 110 as a ball spell, but throw some metal/crystal wands their way if you wanna use 512.

Or ask them to handle the disabling with 316/1120/135.

---

Semirelated, that got me thinking about 713: do plasma crits also cause steam?
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1779
| author = DOUG
| date = on 04/14/2016 01:11 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
Ok, again - I understand. I wasn't asking for data, just inference. No matter.

410 will likely be superior to almost anything else presently for group hunting bandits.

912 does in fact work for uphunting in a group (at least by 10 to 15 levels, and admittedly not guaranteed), and against flying / non-corporeal targets, as shown.

512 isn't a strong (or perhaps just isn't a) selection for group hunting. However, it does have very specific and suitable uses, in my estimation.

And since 512/512 by definition can't be as effective as 410 in any number of use cases, I'm content with staying on the 'let's play with it a bit' side. I'd be more concerned about that position if 410 / 912 didn't function in these cases.

Doug
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 178
| author = KEITHOBAD
| date = on 08/28/2015 12:41 PM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - 501 (Sleep) Updated
}}
''

Hey thanks for the response Ixix! And I even like the answer :)

I still wish it had higher scaling and could work on 100-125 wardings, but I might see some benefit from this ..oh...<checks charts> 6% of the time. (no chance getting something similar to 415 eh? air lore skill / 2?)
Gotta try at least, thanks again Ixix.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1780
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 04/14/2016 02:04 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>512 isn't a strong (or perhaps just isn't a) selection for group hunting. However, it does have very specific and suitable uses, in my estimation.''

Please do let us know if you find any instances.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1781
| author = PCOFFEY77
| date = on 04/14/2016 02:55 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
I have noticed that with this new update I'm having a hard time getting a full head before running out of mana - even with leech. So, something isn't quite right here anymore. Definitely would like to see the damage brought back on the initial cast. It's still the same spell doing the same thing as it did, just without damage.

And if I have to "drench" something first, then 512 it, can there be a mass 903 spell that'll drench everyone as well?

The more I use this new spell the more I'd rather it be what it was.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1782
| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 04/14/2016 02:56 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>can there be a mass 903 spell that'll drench everyone as well?''

Cone of Elements (518)
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1783
| author = PCOFFEY77
| date = on 04/14/2016 02:58 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>Now, my question - if that implication above is accurate, is the experience using 111 extending to knock-downs and stuns? I ask because I have to believe that in some measurable percentage of the NPCs knock-downs and stuns would occur.''

Maybe has nothing to do with your question but I'd point out that Major Cold blossoms into more and tends to knockdown/stun multiple targets and is cheaper to cast...but maybe I shouldn't mention that cause it might get nerfed as well.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1784
| author = PCOFFEY77
| date = on 04/14/2016 02:58 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>Cone of Elements (518)''

Not if you're lightning attuned.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1785
| author = PCOFFEY77
| date = on 04/14/2016 03:00 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>Not if you're lightning attuned.''

Nevermind, looks like you can set the element if you're trained enough. Sorry!
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1786
| author = CANDIDE
| date = on 04/14/2016 03:10 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
"You may now EVOKE Cold Snap (512). Doing so, it will always prefer to hit already affected targets (thus to more easily upgrade the root to an immobile). The previous targeting logic no longer applies.

GameMaster Estild"

Does this mean that we can just use incant 512 evoke as a first and second+subsequent casts? Would love to just assign 1 macros button to this.

GBB
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1787
| author = DOUG
| date = on 04/14/2016 03:20 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
I think that's right, GBB, with one notable use case exception.

If you have more than 4 creatures in the room (or more up to your limit in EL:W training), you'll likely find yourself in a situation where you're only refreshing the duration of the existing immobilized creatures.

Since this doesn't happen to the Elf, it's not an issue for me. But I'll bet it could happen.

Doug
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1788
| author = DOUG
| date = on 04/14/2016 03:23 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
I'm not too sure who made the 'shivering' suggestion (and yep, still being lazy!), but. . .

I am starting to really like that suggestion. Is it within the realm of plausibility that anytime a threshold for the spell (immobile to rooted, or rooted to free) gets passed, the equivalent of a Slow (504) effect takes place?

While the environment might have warmed (magically or otherwise) to the point where the ice falls away, I'd imagine limbs are still all aquiver, hampering any other efforts.

Oh, and I'll reiterate the suggestion that an immobilized (512/512) creature should be stepped down - immobile to rooted - when magic fire brings the spell down.

Doug
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1789
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 04/14/2016 03:34 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>Do go ahead and play, but non-sorcerer/wizard pures only have 111 as a group hunting option to get credit for things such as bandits''

This isn't actually true. Casting 316 and whatever that empaths spell is that makes everything act stupid will get them credit. Of course, this is also operating under the assumption that they're ok with not actually getting exp, since they're not actually doing any damage.

''>Or ask them to handle the disabling with 316/1120/135.''

This is actually the most effective thing to do anyway, as those spells are still better disablers in every way vs Cold Snap.

Cold Snap could have a lot of potential if the right tweaks were made to it, but unfortunately the way it currently is is little more than gimmicky eye candy that is outclassed in most situations by spells that have existed for decades. Losing the initial damage was unnecessary, and the steam thing is self defeating and according to Estild IIRC, is just for flair. I don't see how the logic adds up of something intended to be flair completely taking the spell itself out of the equation, but as Estild is open to removing that feature, it's whatever.

I think a better use of flares like that would be to have it do something meaningful. If you cast fire on it and it melts the ice, make the steam effect do enough damage to be worth sacrificing the big ice cube for. I think it'd be safe to say that if it's melting a big block of ice instantly, then that water should be boiling hot and burning the crap out of the target and doing tons of damage. Just make it a fire flavored version of the 505/510/903 shatter effect even. Do the same with the other elements too. Let lighting shatter do something else, acid does whatever, etc. This also opens up the spell for all types of mages and not just water mages, which is still the weakest and least used lore for combat. I don't foresee wizards running out to fixskills into a water lore build for this spell. Maybe more is coming, but since we're kept in the dark on that, all we can do is give feedback on what we're not in the dark about.

But anyway, the payoff has to really be meaningful, otherwise it's another situation of 410/912/518 still being the better choice and we're left with another situational gimmicky spell that will hardly ever get used once the new spell novelty wears off.

If we're gonna shoehorn wizards into primarily being bolters (which I don't think is even possible without a spell overhaul, not to any truly effective level compared to other pures anyway) then our bolts need to truly be meaningful when used in combination with setup spells. That's how synergy should work. You're on the right track with the current shatter effect, I just think some numbers need to be adjusted and more elemental synergy possibilities added.

One thing I would suggest when designing new spells/abilities is ask yourself something along the lines of "If I were a wizard, would I be lowering my hunting efficiency by using this over 410/912/518?" and if the answer is yes, take it back to the drawing board, ask for player feedback, bribe Dave with some coke (coca cola of course) to chill with his recent thing with sucking the fun out of wizards, etc.

I think it would be a much better use of resources to involve player feedback during the development process (i.e. "Hey guys, first off blah blah disclaimer, anyway this is a spell we're working on and how it works. What do you think?") as opposed to "New spell went live today, here you go!" followed by the usual forum train wreck after.

Differences aside between players and staff, I think that GS is a tight enough community to where this should be a thing, at least with class changes like wizards have seen.

I know this already somewhat happens (or at least did before it got canned in favor of not telling us anything until it's live or almost live), but the key here is you have to actually listen to the players too. The ELR is a prime example...for months, these forums were exploding with valid criticisms about the ELR changes and how they did nothing to address the issues created by the big 3 nerfs, yet almost every useless feature we complained about in great detail (slot machines, etc) got rammed down our throats anyway despite the fact that it was explained a million times by several players why it's bad, suggestions on how to improve or replace it, what wizards really need if you want them to be bolters and not using CS spells as their primary attacks. etc., and while some of our feedback did see results, the majority of it was ignored.

I'm not saying that because someone posts something then it has to happen, but when wizards in all directions are going down the list as to why XYZ does nothing to address problems ABC that were created by nerfing 123, you get the state of bitterness like we have with wizards.

I promise you that wizards (I know, not ALL wizards) didn't shift their focus to CS spells because we wanted to stick it to Simu and not use bolts out of spite. It's more about whats more fun and more rewarding to us, most of which has been taken away from us because Dave thinks it'll result in more F2P accounts (huh?) or whatever.

I'm still holding out hope that there's more stuff coming that will be really good, but I'm not getting my hopes up too high either. After all, the only way to ensure you won't be let down is to lower your expectations.

~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs:
http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 179
| author = ERYKK2
| date = on 08/28/2015 01:12 PM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!
}}
I don't think I've cast 512 once in 70 levels. I don't see that changing. Want me to cast the spell? Give me the same benefits as 112. It makes sense. I freeze the water as I walk upon it. There should be an elemental counterpart to the spiritual spell.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1790
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 04/14/2016 03:57 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>Of course, this is also operating under the assumption that they're ok with not actually getting exp, since they're not actually doing any damage.''

Most people aren't ok with this, nor should they be expected to be.

''>This is actually the most effective thing to do anyway, as those spells are still better disablers in every way vs Cold Snap.''

This is obvious, but it just illustrates how useless Cold Snap is as there is no scenario under which I would currently use it vs. 410 (underhunting) or uphunting (doesn't work on sentries or GWEs).
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1792
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 04/14/2016 04:10 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
I'm sure this isn't some shocking revelation, but this spell also has zero use in the Confluence. It literally does nothing at all in the entire hunting area.

That's one thing that always irked me about hunting, especially at cap, is the ridiculous amount of non-crittable targets. Maybe it made some sense (and I use that word loosely in regards to this) back when almost everyone was one shotting all the time pre-crit randomization, but the frequency of one shot kills isn't nearly what it used to be for most classes, so what's even the point of having so many critters that are immune to everything except raw damage?

This is more of a game wide issue and not a wizard issue, but has still always been really annoying

~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs:
http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1793
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 04/14/2016 04:54 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''> I think it would be a much better use of resources to involve player feedback during the development process (i.e. "Hey guys, first off blah blah disclaimer, anyway this is a spell we're working on and how it works. What do you think?") as opposed to "New spell went live today, here you go!" followed by the usual forum train wreck after.''

This is easier said than done. Sometimes things look terrible on paper, but when you actually use it it's better than it sounds. The update to Empathic Link is a perfect example of this. The initial reaction to it was VERY underwhelming, and actually for quite a few hours nobody even bothered to try it out. Then a few people gave it a shot and said "Hey, I know this update sound bad... But, uh... This is actually really good. Check this out! <Log of destruction>." If I had given out details beforehand, it seems pretty likely that the response would have been "This isn't good and won't get us to use the spell."

I'm not saying you don't have a valid point, but ultimately it's more complicated than that. I can tell you right now that my next big release is something that I am dying to share with everyone. However, I know that like the 1117 update the initial player response is almost guaranteed to be "This is terrible. I can't believe you wasted your time working on this." I also know that when people actually get to use it they're going to see that it's not terrible and wasn't a waste of my time.

~ Konacon
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1794
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 04/14/2016 05:02 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>I also know that when people actually get to use it they're going to see that it's not terrible and wasn't a waste of my time.''

I hope this is true, but it's very disheartening to keep seeing the lackluster band-aids we're given while you continue to further buff the two most powerful combat pures already.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1795
| author = LALAKERCLAN
| date = on 04/14/2016 05:05 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
The new 512 is terrible and a waste of time.

Just kidding.

I'm ok with new stuff being released, allowing us to test it (instant skill migration) and then responding to feedback. As long as feedback is actively being considered I'm cool with being given a new toy prototype to play with.

Of course I'm not currently playing my wizard anymore because he sucks now. Waiting to see if we get any new toys that on paper at least sound promising.

This particular spell update seems kinda blah on paper. One cast of 512 is terrible. Really this should just be moved to 525 with meteor swarm replaced or moved because I cannot think of any scenario in which I would cast 512 once. So really I look at it as a way to immobilize 4 critters in a room for 24 mana in 6 seconds of cast rt and subject to 2 warding checks. When spelled out that way, doesn't sound so great either, but who knows. Industrious wizards still actively hunting, post your logs! Try it out versus 410/912 and let us know.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1797
| author = CANDIDE
| date = on 04/14/2016 05:58 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
"I'm sure this isn't some shocking revelation, but this spell also has zero use in the Confluence. It literally does nothing at all in the entire hunting area.

That's one thing that always irked me about hunting, especially at cap, is the ridiculous amount of non-crittable targets. Maybe it made some sense (and I use that word loosely in regards to this) back when almost everyone was one shotting all the time pre-crit randomization, but the frequency of one shot kills isn't nearly what it used to be for most classes, so what's even the point of having so many critters that are immune to everything except raw damage?

This is more of a game wide issue and not a wizard issue, but has still always been really annoying

~ Methais"

Wait it doesn't root and prevent Special attacks/MA attacks from elementals in the confluence? Rewind. If that is true then this spell needs to work on Elementals (fire, water, lightning, steam, earth, lava, but not ice elementals) for sure. I would argue that it should even work on non corporeal undead encasing them in ice blocks.

GBB
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1798
| author = BLACKKOBOLD2
| date = on 04/14/2016 05:58 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
You say the oddest things about call wind, Doug!

You said yesterday that you use it on bandits. In my experience bandits are highly resistant to call wind while e-wave almost never misses. This is not true for all creatures, but my experience against bandits never varied. I love call wind, but it's a waste of mana against bandits. Do you really find call wind effective against them? If so, I wonder why the disparity?

I also don't recall non-corp being immune to knockdown from call wind. Fallen crusaders are non-corp and I seem to recall knocking them over. The reason not to use call wind against them is their haste effect. Knock down a crusader with call wind and it's up again before you can cast your next spell sometimes!

I do recall floating creatures like cerebralites would get buffeted, but this never seemed to produce any effect. It's possible I would have missed a stance change as cerebralites seem to have pretty low DS no matter what.

I also recall reading somewhere along the way that they made some change to interaction with flying creatures? I don't remember if that related to call wind in any way, though. Perhaps part of the ELR? It would make sense if flying targets were more susceptible to call wind, rather than being immune to it.

~Taverkin
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1799
| author = KITHUS
| date = on 04/14/2016 06:17 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
I'm curious. Do you all feel that 512 would be good if the damage was added back in? It sounds like that loss is the biggest complaint. Other than that it sounds like even though water lore is supposed to give X amount of casts of minor water converted to minor cold but the spell is wearing off before all the bolts can be converted. That in mind perhaps one or more of the following changes would:

- Add the damage back in to the spell with a channeled version at the very least for a single target
- Considering the apparently short duration of the spell (just going on what's been said) why not just make any cast of 903 at a target affected by 912 change to minor cold?
- Add a way, either with water lore or another version of the spell, to instantly freeze the target(s)

Perhaps as a compromise a channel single target version that does the initial damage and freezes in a single cast or at least has a chance to on a high enough warding roll or with lore?

Just spit balling.

Keith/Brinret/Shiun

Brinret says, "Bring it on."
A bolt of lightning streaks down from the sky and strikes Brinret!
... 16428101 points of damage!
Powerful blast reduces Brinret to a smoldering pile of ash!
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 180
| author = OBSERVER
| date = on 08/28/2015 02:01 PM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!
}}
I really like the idea of making a room safe to use lightning for the duration of this spell.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1800
| author = DOUG
| date = on 04/14/2016 06:28 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
Yikes! I'm not sure where I said that. . .

I do, from time to time, use Call Wind on bandits. But it is no where's near as effective as Elemental Wave against bandits, I agree. I'd say about 60 to 70%, but that's about it. If I left the impression that bandits are better tackled with 912, other than for amusement, I apologize.

And you might been able to knock over non-corps, but I never seem to. At least, not with sufficient frequency to count (and certainly not in the log posted).

I think you would have noticed that the buffeting does put the creatures in RT - that is, if you let them hang around for more than 1 second, you mad speed demon, you.

The change for flying creatures was 410, I'm pretty sure. Enough lore allows you to affect them (similar to buffet, doesn't knock 'em down). Ahh, yep - wiki says it unlocks at 50 ranks EL:A.

As I rip past an Aivren or two, I'll fire up Call Wind again, but pretty sure they get buffeted, too.

Doug
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1801
| author = CAVEMANIAC
| date = on 04/14/2016 06:40 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
Just like the empath spell this doesnt sound that bad on paper. It is a mediocre crowd control spell but that is not its sole purpose and if you need a better CC wizards atleast have some other options.

The fact that the shattering effect does 50% HP damage in addition to the damage from the bolt sounds good. Now when you hit a non lethal body location when channeling bolts you will do serious damage. 512x2 then channeled 903x2 with 2x water lore might just kill anything that cold snap effects. Not having a solution for non-corps is a valid concern though.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1802
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 04/14/2016 06:44 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>It is a mediocre crowd control spell but that is not its sole purpose and if you need a better CC wizards atleast have some other options.''

Still no valid and reliable options.

''>The fact that the shattering effect does 50% HP damage in addition to the damage from the bolt sounds good. Now when you hit a non lethal body location when channeling bolts you will do serious damage. 512x2 then channeled 903x2 with 2x water lore might just kill anything that cold snap effects.''

Sounds like someone who hasn't tried this spell even once. This isn't remotely true, even on the instances where the shattering effect occurred, the creature almost never died. If you have 2x water lore, you will have totally gimped yourself offensively, defensively, and utility wise on nearly every other level to the point where you're truly a crippled, one trick pony.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1803
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 04/14/2016 07:08 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>Wait it doesn't root and prevent Special attacks/MA attacks from elementals in the confluence? Rewind. If that is true then this spell needs to work on Elementals (fire, water, lightning, steam, earth, lava, but not ice elementals) for sure. I would argue that it should even work on non corporeal undead encasing them in ice blocks.''

No disabler/crowd control spells work on anything in there except stuff that induces or affects RT, the only exception being earth elementals can be knocked down by 505 and 415 but that's not exactly a disabler it's just a knockdown.

~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs:
http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1804
| author = BLACKKOBOLD2
| date = on 04/14/2016 07:20 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
No. The damage is not useful and cannot be useful and still remain balanced as a level 12 spell (at least, not without changing something else!). They need to focus on making this spell a useful alternative to other area disablers, or find something else to do with the spell slot if an effective CS-based mass disabler is too generous in the minds of our stingy development team.

The double-cast is also problematic. It's repetitive, too expensive for the effect it generates, and it requires two casts for an effect that arguably isn't even up to par for a single cast.

This is very disappointing. I've been waiting months for some sign that this team is learning from their mistakes and moving toward some sort of recovery. But this is exactly the sort of design that turned me off to the ELR from the start. It's like when you added weak reactive flares to stone skin without considering why wizards think stone skin is practically worthless as a level 20 major circle defense spell.

It's a shame. You did a great job on sorcerers. I was sort of expecting something similar for wizards. But, no.

~Taverkin
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1805
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 04/14/2016 08:07 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>The fact that the shattering effect does 50% HP damage in addition to the damage from the bolt sounds good. Now when you hit a non lethal body location when channeling bolts you will do serious damage. 512x2 then channeled 903x2 with 2x water lore might just kill anything that cold snap effects.''

For the setup time and mana required, combined with the defensive risk from having to CHANNEL the shatter and be stuck in offensive for 3 seconds, that 50% should be 100% and shattering the entire target into a million pieces. But since they don't want anything being one shotted, they'll say no.

Except you're not one shotting anything. You're 3 shotting things that requires 2 warding checks, 1 AS/DS check, and sticking your neck out by being stuck in hard offensive RT for 3 seconds. And then you have to land a rank 5 crit on top of it all.

What? That's overpowered? No it's not. Why? Becausea there's already a pure class that gets guaranteed 3 shot kills, but without the risk of channeling in offensive or rank 5 crits required. Oh yeah and a 0.3x lore requirement, as opposed to our current 202 water lore rank requirement just to have a 100% for shatter to activate on top of everything else. And even then you only get half of their health. If you land a rank 5+ crit.

Make it base 50% and let it scale up to 100% damage with lore training.

Make it require a 150+ end roll on the shatter shot to kill. The fact still remains that we have to make two successful warding casts before the shatter is even possible to attempt. Keep in mind that you also took away the damage that used to come along with casting this spell, which often one shotted things on its own, as it would usually crit pretty hard. No double cast setups or channeling or lore required. Just walk in the room and incant ice to the face.

This spell actually got nerfed for non-water mages, since shatter chance is water lore skill / 3.

Like someone said earlier, stop being so afraid to make spells powerful. You wanted combat slowed down from what Immolate could do. This achieves that while giving wizards a reliable way to kill that's impossible to one shot and doesn't require a pull of the lever or splitting your CS.

It will still be significantly less powerful than pre-nerf Immolate. This actually would put us right on par with 711 casting sorcerers. The damage per cast would just be 0/0/100% vs. sorcerers 33/33/33%.

And if you're putting all 202 lore ranks into water for a 100% shatter chance with a 2 cast setup requirement, you're sacrificing a lot and you'd better be gaining just as much in return. Otherwise what's the point?

Tell me why my idea is bad.


~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs:
http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1806
| author = BRANDTJRT
| date = on 04/14/2016 08:23 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
This sounds rather underwhelming, though concept wise it is top notch. It seems to me that this might work better if it was set up like the new Tremors, where one cast let you use it a couple times, albeit with different numbers. It would also make sense if it would solidify water and ice elemental types and make them solid and crittable since they were solid chunks.

That's just me rambling a bit, as I really like the idea for sure and hope it can be made to work well. There's lots of good thinking by expert Wizards here, so hopefully it will end that way.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1807
| author = MEKK1
| date = on 04/14/2016 09:09 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
Make cold snap like 717 Evil Eye.

101-124 Causes target to freeze solid No Stun; Incurs 10 seconds of hard RT

125 - 174 Causes the target to fall to the ground. Creatures will drop items in their hands. Stance will be reduced to neutral. 1 second per 2 warding margin (12 sec at ER 125 to 37 sec at ER 174)

175-198 Frozen to death, heart stopped cold! No loot. No resulting stun

199+ Shattering Death. No loot.

Character formerly known as Drauz
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1808
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 04/14/2016 09:11 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
Methais...combined with the defensive risk from having to CHANNEL the shatter and be stuck in offensive for 3 seconds...

Considering the fact that you twice cast the spell to immobilize everything in the room, the risk to channel is ridiculously small.

MethaisAnd then you have to land a rank 5 crit on top of it all.

It should be noted that the DS penalty for immobile targets is significant, making this much easier.

GameMaster Estild
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1809
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 04/14/2016 09:27 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>Considering the fact that you twice cast the spell to immobilize everything in the room, the risk to channel is ridiculously small.''

I wouldn't say everything, since crusaders, destroyers, sentries, defenders, and water elementals are all immune to this spell, and having at least one of them in the mix isn't exactly uncommon.

And this spell has literally no use in the Confluence. Not even against fire.

~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs:
http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 181
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 08/28/2015 02:34 PM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!
}}
LADYFLEURAlso, the damage seems exceptionally small for a 159 endroll, especially on a fire creature that has the largest vulnerability to cold damage.

You were correct, it was actually lower than I had intended. The damage on targeted 512 has been adjusted and should look much more reasonable now.

~ Konacon
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1810
| author = ALSTHAR
| date = on 04/14/2016 09:30 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''<>''

Yup, nothing ever walks into the room during the 1-6 seconds of soft cast rt (which would leave it either completely free of being disabled, or just rooted rather than immobilzed), or after the channel. There's definitely not a multitude of areas, especially near cap, where things enter room with spells already preped or can act in ~3 seconds.

It clearly won't happen every time but....yeah, you and I are worlds apart on what "ridiculously small" is.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1811
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 04/14/2016 09:41 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
RobertSo seriously Estild, what's the scoop here? A full 15 seconds went by after I set the defender on fire and it just completely ignored the spell (this is the disabler version that I am casting in case there is any confusion). Is this working as intended or is there a bug that is hard to nail down? If the spell just isn't going to work (and it is intended) then there should at least be some messaging to this effect.

You were experiencing a bug which wasn't outputting the messaging when the flames were put out from the triton defender due to being in a watery room. It has always been the case that Immolation (519) will end early in such circumstances, and for the most part, the disabling effect of the spell has not changed (or should not have) at all since its original implementation. However, we also did discover another bug with how the roundtime was being applied and fixed that as well. Let me know if you notice any other issues with it.

To provide some additional details on how the disabling aspect works, when the spell is cast, the target creature is immediately subject to 10 seconds of roundtime. 5 seconds after the cast, they have a 25% chance to just ignore the fire (and thus take no additional roundtime that round) or they can attempt to extinguish the flames (10-50% chance of success) and take another 10 seconds of roundtime. This process repeats every 10 seconds. The roundtime does not stack with itself or any other roundtime on the target, but will reset to the 10 second mark accordingly. The disabling aspect has always worked this way.

GameMaster Estild
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1812
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 04/14/2016 09:53 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
ALSTHARYup, nothing ever walks into the room during the 1-6 seconds of soft cast rt (which would leave it either completely free of being disabled, or just rooted rather than immobilzed), or after the channel. There's definitely not a multitude of areas, especially near cap, where things enter room with spells already preped or can act in ~3 seconds.

You only have to be concerned with the hard RT from the final cast where you channel. If something walks into the room while you're casting Cold Snap twice, you can easily decide not to try to shatter a target and thus not risk a channel. More so, most creatures cannot walk into a room and attack in the same action. So even if they do walk in, there's a significant chance you'll be out of roundtime before they perform any extra action.

GameMaster Estild
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1813
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 04/14/2016 09:57 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>If something walks into the room while you're casting Cold Snap twice, you can easily decide not to try to shatter a target and thus not risk a channel. More so, most creatures cannot walk into a room and attack in the same action. So even if they do walk in, there's a significant chance you'll be out of roundtime before they perform any extra action.''

This kind of thinking makes me wonder whether you hunt often enough to know what actually happens in practice. In theory, this sounds nice, but in reality, when you need to hit a mass disable button because the room is swarming and OMG out of control, the last thing you're going to be doing is standing there twiddling thumbs and wondering whether you can afford to channel or confirming that every creature in the room was eligible and able to be frozen. A lot can happen in 3 seconds. Significant chances of bad things.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1814
| author = LALAKERCLAN
| date = on 04/14/2016 10:51 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''> ridiculously small''

This is like every death my wizard has in gemstone, other than missing a sulfur trap while trying to pop boxes. I mean like every death. Where everything is going peachy until that one moment you're in offensive and then BAM dead/disabled about to be dead. Like every death.

Ridiculously small. I really really beg to differ.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1815
| author = ALSTHAR
| date = on 04/14/2016 11:10 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
Yes, so i've spent 12-24 mana for basically nothing i couldn't have accomplished with 410, 912, 435, 909 in the vast majority of circumstances. That's the point. The shatter isn't even exceptionally beneficial (or even remotely guaranteed without EXTREME amounts of our weakest lore), and the disable is inferior to our other options outside of some very niche cases. I have to be fighting something i can't reliable e-wave (which again, gets noticeably more reliable with the same lore tied to this disable...), call wind, tremor but can ward with MjE and isn't immune to this. I mean if i'm hitting something with a rank 5+ impact it's probably dead on anything than a limb shot, so sure bleeding something out with 300 damage rank 9 limb + shatter proc is cool but not exactly worth all the extra work.

The 2x cast just kills it for me. I don't see any problem with, again, it being 2x cast if you can't reliably ward things / have no water lore but a warding margin check with a lore benefit to lower the margin for entomb in 1 cast. At least then this would be an ok setup for our already weakest combat lore.

tl;dr - doing no damage for 6 seconds, ain't no one got time for that. It's the wizard equivalent of jab spam and we know how well that went over :P
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1816
| author = PC1234
| date = on 04/15/2016 03:29 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
You only have to be concerned with the hard RT from the final cast where you channel. If something walks into the room while you're casting Cold Snap twice, you can easily decide not to try to shatter a target and thus not risk a channel. More so, most creatures cannot walk into a room and attack in the same action. So even if they do walk in, there's a significant chance you'll be out of roundtime before they perform any extra action.GameMaster Estild

I guess you're unaware that griffins can enter with a screech that puts you into 20s RT. You do play this game, right?
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1817
| author = BLACKKOBOLD2
| date = on 04/15/2016 03:33 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''

So why do I have to cast the spell twice to receive an effect that is underwhelming even as a single cast for 12 mana? And I should be happy to use this spell because you say casting a spell twice doesn't increase risk at all?

This is why I don't play GS anymore. I know you get all salty when people ask this question, but seriously Estild, have you ever hunted a wizard post-cap? Because you really hung us out to dry and you still don't seem to understand why.

~Taverkin
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1818
| author = ZENDADA
| date = on 04/15/2016 04:23 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
I like this version of the spell much more than I did Ice Patch! Thank you for that!

It's a nice alternative AOE to what we already have. I'm not a water mage but I saw some clips earlier in this thread that were pretty awesome.

Mana does not bother me. I knew when I made a mage that mana would be an issue and have taken steps to mitigate that weakness in the basic character design.

Chad, player of a few
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1819
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 04/15/2016 06:11 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
I'd still like to see the spell have the option to be cast the old way with the damage, even if doing so removes the ability to follow up with another cast to ice cube them.

Would it be possible to allow us to CHANNEL the spell for this effect, assuming EVOKE isn't possible due to the EVOKE already being used for the feature Estild added? Or maybe let EVOKE <target> cast it for damage while open EVOKE does the whole targeting already rooted stuff.

Removing options and choices is almost never a good thing.

~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs:
http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 182
| author = GOLDENOAK2
| date = on 08/28/2015 02:39 PM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!
}}
You were correct, it was actually lower than I had intended. The damage on targeted 512 has been adjusted and should look much more reasonable now.

~ Konacon>>

So even though lore isn't required for the effect, does water lore boost it any? Just curious
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1820
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 04/15/2016 06:23 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
Thank you for the response and the additional insight into how the spell should work.

I'll run it thought its paces this weekend and see if there are still any weird circumstances (no messaging or unexpected behaviors).

''>> the disabling effect of the spell has not changed (or should not have) at all since its original implementation.''

The bug has probably just became more noticeable (for me) with the reduction in instant kills.

''>> However, we also did discover another bug with how the roundtime was being applied and fixed that as well.''

I'll be curious to see how this plays out. Hopefully the bug fix was in favor of more RT, not less! :p

-- Robert

Raggler squeakily says, "Muffins are also known to be one of the most healthiest foods in the world."

Raggler squeakily says, "It's a fact."
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1821
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 04/15/2016 07:08 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>This is easier said than done. Sometimes things look terrible on paper, but when you actually use it it's better than it sounds. The update to Empathic Link is a perfect example of this. The initial reaction to it was VERY underwhelming, and actually for quite a few hours nobody even bothered to try it out. Then a few people gave it a shot and said "Hey, I know this update sound bad... But, uh... This is actually really good. Check this out! ." If I had given out details beforehand, it seems pretty likely that the response would have been "This isn't good and won't get us to use the spell."''

''>I'm not saying you don't have a valid point, but ultimately it's more complicated than that. I can tell you right now that my next big release is something that I am dying to share with everyone. However, I know that like the 1117 update the initial player response is almost guaranteed to be "This is terrible. I can't believe you wasted your time working on this." I also know that when people actually get to use it they're going to see that it's not terrible and wasn't a waste of my time. -Konacon''

One big roadblock with this whole wizard fiasco since the nerfs is nobody is going to shell out millions of coins for multiple fixskills in order to test out different builds with the new mechanics.

This could easily lead to an example like yours that sounds bad on paper but is great in practice going totally unexplored for quite a long time if not forever.

If you guys want us to really explore this new stuff and discover how great it really is with the right build, we need the test server opened up.

I'd love to try out a Cold Snap build with different amounts of water lore to see how it fares and at what point if any training more water lore becomes a waste. But I'm not going to shell out 2-3m a pop to respec just to test out new mechanics, and I doubt anyone else is willing to do so either.

We have a free fixskills coming up in a couple weeks, but who's going to gamble on that? If they try out a water lore build and it sucks, they're still going to be stuck spending a bunch of coins to spec out of it.

~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs:
http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1822
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 04/15/2016 07:15 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
PC1234I guess you're unaware that griffins can enter with a screech that puts you into 20s RT. You do play this game, right?

EstildMore so, most creatures cannot walk into a room and attack in the same action.

GameMaster Estild
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1823
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 04/15/2016 07:17 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
RobertI'll be curious to see how this plays out. Hopefully the bug fix was in favor of more RT, not less! :p

It was definitely a bug that was not in your favor (since it was failing to apply the roundtime correctly), so fixing it is a good thing. :)

GameMaster Estild
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1824
| author = DRUMPEL
| date = on 04/15/2016 07:31 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
The idea of the spell is nice, but it seems lacking. I think a few adjustments could do wonders to this updated spell. Right now it seems very taxing to get anything really useful out of the spell.

When cast the spell will subject non-grouped targets to a warding. Targets that fail to ward become rooted. The root status effect causes a target to have -50 AS to melee attacks, -25 AS to ranged attacks, and -25 DS (but does not stack with the -DS penalties from other status conditions such as being knocked down). Most importantly, rooted creatures also can't perform maneuvers. The spell will affect up to 4 targets, increasing by +1 per seed 5 summation of Elemental Lore, Water ranks. The duration of the root will be ((warding margin / 5) + 3), capped at 25 seconds.

Keep rooted effect and # of targets it hits.
Adjust the duration because currently the ice appears to melt faster than it should to make things worthwhile. Change the root duration to ((warding margin / 4) + 2). This will give a slight boost to the duration once the end rolls exceed 140.

Casting the spell a second time will completely encase any already affected target that fails to ward in an ice block, immobilizing them and refreshing the duration.

Keep this, this is beneficial to those that don't focus on EL:W.

Add: Chance for initial cast to encase a target in ice for 5 seconds for any endroll over 200. Once the 5 seconds is up, the target goes from encased in ice to rooted in ice for the remainder of the root duration. Also, give a boost to those that train in EL:W. Every 5 ranks EL:W, the warding margin to instant encase drops by 1. Also, every 10 ranks EL:W the instant encased in ice duration increases by 1 second, capped at 25 seconds.

A mage with 100 ranks EL:W would need an end roll of 180 (100 EL:W ranks / 5 = 20; 200 endroll - 20 = 180) and the target would be encased for 15 seconds (100 EL:W ranks / 10 = 10; initial 5 seconds + 10 = 15 seconds)

This makes the spell somewhat more useful for non EL:W trained mages, but for those that do train in EL:W it helps show the power/control they have over the element, making it more useful for them.

If a target is encased in ice (512x2) and the caster CHANNELs a bolt that causes a rank 5+ impact (505, 510, 1709) critical, there is an (Elemental Lore, Water skill / 3) chance that the target location will shatter, completely destroying it and causing 50% of the target's max health in concussion damage.

Keep this idea, but adjust it so every one that trains in EL can have a chance to cause bonus damage across a larger number of spells.

Remove: CHANNEL required. CHANNEL is if we want to have a better chance to hit vital areas, it shouldn't be required here.

Adjust the EL:W skill / 3. It doesn't make sense that someone would need knowledge in EL:W to give their other bolt spells a chance to cause extra damage. Make it take your EL ranks against the spell you're casting. If someone casts 510, it would check against your EL:E skill / 3. If someone casts 906, it would check against your EL:F skill / 3....

Spells EL skill / 3 Chance Effect906/908/111 Fire Rapid melting, severe steam burns903/907/1709 Water Deep freeze (target stays frozen), add 10 points crit weighting to bolt505 Air Shatter, concussion damage510 Earth Shatter, crush/impact damage904/1710 Earth or Water Rapid melting, severe plasma burns910 Water or Air Shatter, severe shock damage917 Earth Shatter, crush/impact damage & knocks target over917 Fire Rapid melting, severe steam burns & knocks target over518 whatever element you cast see above list that matches the bolt cast

''>I didn't include 901 on the list because I don't see it having the punch required to do extra damage on ice encased targets.''
''>518 might be overkill, but man it would be awesome to encase a handful of creatures and then blast them with 518 and watch the whole room (possibly) get destroyed!''

With adjustments like this, I could see my wizard tossing out this spell from time to time. He has no water lore, but if he could instant encase a target on an initial cast and toss a boulder at them for a chance to do heavy damage, it would be beneficial to make use of time to time.

-Drumpel
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1825
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 04/15/2016 10:26 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
I stand corrected, Cold Snap works against earth elementals in the Confluence. Just not on anything else in there.

~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs:
http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1826
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 04/15/2016 10:26 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''> I stand corrected, Cold Snap works against earth elementals in the Confluence. Just not on anything else in there.''

I'll never trust you again!

~ Konacon
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1828
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 04/15/2016 11:45 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>I'll never trust you again! ~ Konacon''

Like you ever did! :(

~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs:
http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1829
| author = CANDIDE
| date = on 04/15/2016 02:39 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
I would like this spell to have a chance to instantly freeze upon first cast much like 316's immobolization effect post 150 end rolls.

I would like this spell to work on more types of creatures ie (as many of the elementals as are not already made of ice, non-corporeal undead etc).

Other than that I look forward to using the spell and finding spots where it is appropriate. 3rd floor nelemar on radicals, combatants, and maybe spectral triton defenders if they can be hit with this.

The problem always comes up though does it address a problem 410/912/909 already has solved in a better way? If this spell turned into the spell that works when those 3 (really 2) don't work then I am all for it. Barring that I would still like that type of spell to become available. I would also like to mention that another boil earth type spell in the 500 and movin boil earth into the 500's would also be helpful.

GBB
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 183
| author = KEITHOBAD
| date = on 08/28/2015 08:07 PM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!
}}
I'm not exactly sure how this is supposed to work as I find the idea slightly confusing, but I can't seem to notice any effect casting this at Lake Marliese.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1830
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 04/15/2016 03:14 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>I would also like to mention that another boil earth type spell in the 500 and movin boil earth into the 500's would also be helpful.''

They really should just buff Boil Earth. I don't think there is even one person that would honestly say that this is a good spell even with max lore.

If nothing else, its mechanics should mostly mirror Spike Thorn's, either via spell ranks like rangers or via lore. Either way I think even the biggest Simu cheerleader in the history of everything would agree that this spell is total trash right now.

~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs:
http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1831
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 04/15/2016 03:24 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
MethaisIf nothing else, its mechanics should mostly mirror Spike Thorn's, either via spell ranks like rangers or via lore. Either way I think even the biggest Simu cheerleader in the history of everything would agree that this spell is total trash right now.

It's my favorite spell in Dev right now.

GameMaster Estild
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1832
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 04/15/2016 03:24 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''> If nothing else, its mechanics should mostly mirror Spike Thorn's, either via spell ranks like rangers or via lore.''

It is unlikely that we would make Boil Earth simply a wizard version of Spike Thorn.

''> Either way I think even the biggest Simu cheerleader in the history of everything would agree that this spell is total trash right now.''

Don't tell me what to think!

~ Konacon
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1833
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 04/15/2016 03:26 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>It's my favorite spell in Dev right now.''

If only you treated your approach to wizard spells the same way you did sorcerer, cleric, and empath love (we would even settle for no hate, if no love), people would be satisfied, if not happy, with your work. It's mind boggling the disparity that exists between this Dev team's approach to wizards vs. every other pure.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1834
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 04/15/2016 03:27 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>>It's my favorite spell in Dev right now.''

''> If only you treated your approach to wizard spells the same way you did sorcerer, cleric, and empath love (we would even settle for no hate, if no love), people would be satisfied, if not happy, with your work. It's mind boggling the disparity that exists between this Dev team's approach to wizards vs. every other pure.''

Wat

~ Konacon
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1837
| author = CANDIDE
| date = on 04/15/2016 03:33 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
"It is unlikely that we would make Boil Earth simply a wizard version of Spike Thorn.-Konacon"

Better than spike thorn works for me :)

GBB
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1839
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 04/15/2016 03:41 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>How about this, put me on ignore and don't respond with utter nonsense to my posts, and I will happily put you on ignore.''

I'll respond to whatever posts I like, including those that are utter nonsense. It's unfortunate when someone disagrees with one's complaints, isn't it?
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 184
| author = BLACKKOBOLD
| date = on 08/28/2015 08:17 PM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!
}}
This would have been cooler if it worked like the WoW death knight ability "Path of Frost", which freezes the water in an area around you so anyone in your group can walk over water as if it were solid ground. But still a neat little effect. But Ice Patch needs more. The base spell for combat still totally sucks!

~Taverkin
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1842
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 04/15/2016 03:45 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
This is absolutely the wrong way to hunt for GMs. Loud noises scare us.

~ Konacon
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1845
| author = GS4-IXIX
| date = on 04/15/2016 03:51 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
Let's try to stay on topic, eh?


Ixix
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1847
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 04/15/2016 03:54 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
Kindly stop arguing in this thread. Anymore comments and this thread will be updated to be about one of the following three things, which I will choose at random:

a) Puppies
b) Taylor Swift
c) The Major Elemental Circle

~ Konacon
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1849
| author = DOUG
| date = on 04/15/2016 04:04 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
Thank all the Arkati we weren't threatened with cats. . .

Doug
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 185
| author = KEITHOBAD
| date = on 08/28/2015 08:39 PM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!
}}
I've been playing with it all day to try and find a use for it but so far I'm coming up empty. I'm a little confused as to why you would modify a spell and not fix the glaring problems with it. Same issue I have with the 418 spell. Although at least with this one it didn't get measurably worse so ...

ELR woo!
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1850
| author = RROY
| date = on 04/15/2016 04:06 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
People are well aware by now about how the 3-4 most vocal detractors feel. To reiterate it again and again is a waste of everyone's time, GM, writer, and readers. In fact for those of us not completely hating all the ELR and spell changes, its a bummer and kind of ruins a good mood.

Those comparing to MMOs, the games are different animals and the MMOs have had crazy crazy nerf buff cycles. Some of the buffs ad less than 1% damage.

Why not just view cold snap as a flavor spell if its not the be all end all? Even if its not as good as some other spells, if it was better then people using one of the other spells would whine how they suck.

I for one don't like the rapidfire clunkiness with having the 1 sec CRT, but thats the way it goes, gotta take some good with the bad. The new cone of elements more than makes up for that nerf. The splitting of haste is a pretty good trade off for me because I now have stacked duration on what I used haste for, eating herbs, getting into OTF etc...

Rapid Fire wasn't intended to be up 100% of the time when it was originally released.
Haste was not intended to be up 100% of the time on you and your buddies in its original release.
Immolate wasn't released with the intention of being min/maxed into the only spell cast.

So those things have been changed....

A wall of negative posts is only going to serve to discourage the dev. team eventually, lots of GMs, good GMs have left because of the mass amounts of QQing.

In my book telling the whole team they suck, lack judgement, short sighted, etc... is just as bad as calling out a particular GM with personal attacks.

The ratio of mages to other classes has possibly increased or at least stayed the same since we got the ELR. Last night 58/321 when I looked. So the mass exodus of wizards happening RSN.....

I don't ignore anyone, I just look for the red posts and the posts by the non-chicken little folks, then look back if I feel I need to these days...

Do people think that they will return the spells back the way they were or something? That won't happen. I for one am amazed that we are still getting changes after all that's been said.

Just an elf about town...
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1851
| author = RROY
| date = on 04/15/2016 04:15 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
b) Taylor Swift

Please no! I have a renter who lives in my same complex that only talks about TS....

If he were healthier he would probably be a stalking risk outside her home.



Just an elf about town...
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1852
| author = ZENDADA
| date = on 04/15/2016 04:17 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
b) Taylor Swift

She has some sagely advice... shake it off.

Chad, player of a few
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1853
| author = BRANDTJRT
| date = on 04/15/2016 05:14 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>This could easily lead to an example like yours that sounds bad on paper but is great in practice going totally unexplored for quite a long time if not forever.''

''>If you guys want us to really explore this new stuff and discover how great it really is with the right build, we need the test server opened up.''

''>I'd love to try out a Cold Snap build with different amounts of water lore to see how it fares and at what point if any training more water lore becomes a waste. But I'm not going to shell out 2-3m a pop to respec just to test out new mechanics, and I doubt anyone else is willing to do so either.''

I think that needs repeated because it makes so much sense.

That or every time a new spell like this comes out, a short window of instant migration between lores.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1854
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 04/15/2016 05:53 PM PDT
| subject = Move Immolate to 525/530 and restore it to pre-nerf
}}
Immolate should be restored to pre-nerf status and moved to 525/530. And here's why:

Everything below except the mana cost is referring to pre-nerf Immolate, not matchstick Immolate.

- 1030 does craploads of damage
- Immolate does craploads of damage

- 1030 can AOE
- Immolate can't AOE but has a good instant kill rate and built in disabler

- Immolate requires 2x fire lore to be this powerful
- 1030 requires 75 ranks to max out its lore benefit to be this powerful without holding an instrument

- 1030 costs 10 mana for single target, 20 for AOE
- Immolate costs 25/30 mana


This isn't an anti-1030 post either. 1030 rules. This is a pro-Immolate post. Raise the floor, don't lower the ceiling, etc.


~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs:
http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1855
| author = RROY
| date = on 04/15/2016 06:22 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Move Immolate to 525/530 and restore it to pre-nerf
}}
I support this message.... heh

Just an elf about town...
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1856
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 04/15/2016 07:10 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>It's my favorite spell in Dev right now. -Estild''

http://i.imgur.com/dSTbrpg.jpg

''>It is unlikely that we would make Boil Earth simply a wizard version of Spike Thorn.''

That's not a bad thing. But in like laziest case scenario, I'd take it.

''>Don't tell me what to think! ~ Konacon''

You're not my real dad!

''>I for one don't like the rapidfire clunkiness with having the 1 sec CRT''

Rapid Fire should have an EVOKE feature added that turns it to Burst Fire. Works like multicast, but for offensive spells instead of buffs.

Example:
incant 906 5

''''
Cast roundtime: 3 seconds


''>Rapid Fire wasn't intended to be up 100% of the time when it was originally released.''

According to who? Because it's been that way for decades.

''>Haste was not intended to be up 100% of the time on you and your buddies in its original release.''

If this were the case, it would have been addressed when Haste II went away and Haste I just became Haste and had its formula reworked.

''>Immolate wasn't released with the intention of being min/maxed into the only spell cast.''

The reason it was the only spell cast (which isn't true anyway, people act like it one shots things constantly, most finish with 906 if Immolate doesn't kill it) was because nothing else got any big combat benefit from lore. Give people reasons to cast other spells and they will. That doesn't require nerfs.

''>The ratio of mages to other classes has possibly increased or at least stayed the same since we got the ELR. Last night 58/321 when I looked.''

WHO stats don't mean much when you're also the most popular pocket class.



~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs:
http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1857
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 04/15/2016 07:43 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>> It's my favorite spell in Dev right now. -Estild''
''> http://i.imgur.com/dSTbrpg.jpg''

That picture made me laugh.

~ Konacon
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1858
| author = RAGGLER
| date = on 04/15/2016 09:42 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
Unfortunately just because it might be the same 4 or 5 individuals that are loudly discouraged with the changes wizards are going through, doesn't mean there aren't a great many of us who are waiting fairly silently in the background for a more balanced outcome. I may not agree with everything they say, but I agree with a lot of it, and I'm sitting back hoping that at least some of their concerns get through. I'm friends with plenty of wizards that are not delighted by the ELR and frankly get more and more discouraged that we're ever going to find the right direction for wizards, with each new spell release or update. We just don't post very often on the boards.

Sadly, Cold Snap simply falls short again, primarily because it's another case where wizards are spread too thin having 4 different lores. We suffered huge losses with our big 3, and right now, focus needs to be put on spells that are functional for all wizards right out of the box. The main reason I dislike this spell so much, is because it's actually kind of awesome with a huge investment in water lore, which is hard to swallow now since we're all still picking up the pieces of haste the only way we know how, with massive air lore training. With all the other changes, it's also made it hard not to at least have 10-20 ranks of each of the other lores just to hit those low seeds. So now my new spell is collecting dust, right out of the box, which really seems worse then no change at all. Personally, I'm never going to find investing 24 mana and 6 seconds to freeze everything in the room for what seems like a few seconds longer then it takes to do it, a worthy use of my time and mana. However, it testing it out some today, I had a brief glimpse into how awesome this spell could have been in certain situations.


You channel.
You hurl a large boulder at a sand devil!
AS: +566 vs DS: +397 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +57 = +266
... and hit for 164 points of damage!
Every bone in the left arm shattered and scattered about!
The devil's clamshell shield falls to the ground.
The sand devil is stunned!
You hurl a large boulder at a gnomish bandit!
AS: +566 vs DS: +246 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +51 = +411
... and hit for 183 points of damage!
Left arm is torn from shoulder!
The bandit's reinforced shield falls to the ground.
Powerful blow shatters a gnomish bandit's frozen left arm, causing 164 points of damage!

[You have 8 kills remaining.]
The gnomish bandit falls to the ground and dies.
You hurl a large boulder at a human brigand!
AS: +566 vs DS: +175 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +32 = +463
... and hit for 222 points of damage!
Blow to head removes skull!

[You have 7 kills remaining.]
The human brigand rolls over and dies.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
Roundtime: 3 sec.


So I'm not sure if anyone has posted this yet, but it does indeed work with Cone of Earth. I only have 10 ranks of water lore, so it's only barely working for me. In certain situations, probably not while solo hunting, but at least in a group, or in bandits, or anywhere else I'm just sorta kicking around, I would totally invest 24 mana on a setup and another 18 mana on a cone to shatter a bunch of stuff. That's just friend impressing coolness right there, even if it's not a spell you're going to use every hunt. The only problem is that dang water lore requirement again. Others have already came up with the solution. Tie the lore that you need to shatter to the spell being cast. Then an air mage can shatter with air, or an earth mage with earth, or even fire with fire, why not? Since it's taking 24 mana and 6 seconds to setup, it would actually be a perfect group spell, in the sense that once things are frozen, other party members, with various attacks, could also activate the shatter. Crushing damage from weapons? Bard vibrations? Think of the possibilities and the fun you could have in a group. I've also thought that for some of these spells, why couldn't we have a percentage scale based on overall lore, rather than a specific lore? Even if you couldn't get 100% activation, what about 50% at 202 ranks of all lores combined? This spell should never have been cold snap, it should have been elemental snap! Let's start getting some changes that show the love to all wizards, not another change that forces us to choose between being one thing or another.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1859
| author = RROY
| date = on 04/15/2016 10:07 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
According to who? Because it's been that way for decades.

Because when the spell was released people didn't have the potential to have 500 mana and it did not stack at original release. So with 15 sec up time you at least had to recast.


WHO stats don't mean much when you're also the most popular pocket class.

There aren't all that many pocketmags as there were long ago. Most of the pocket mages came into being for enchanting not for spellups.

If pocket mages were so common these days it would also prove true for Rangers with the mobility and dex spells....currently 24/293 rangers on....

Mage been the number one class online at any one time since the game released. Also if such a vast amount of mages left then the ratio of mages would have decreased. As I said it seems like more mages around... Not saying there are 0 pocket mages, but other then a few vocal mages claiming to leave (Yet they still have their accounts around to post) there's no evidence to support mass quitting like some people seem to be saying.



Didn't the other CS based fire attack changes at least partially made up for the nerf? 415 can now hit more than 1 critter, can now push TD down on initial cast of saturation, also cone of elements fire is pretty neat. Fire Lore now increases bolting, that's sweet! 906 ignites...

Looks like they are trying to get people to use more of the spells that are favored by a particular lore.

I have to admit that I haven't played around with the fire spells much yet, I'm just above .5X in Air and want to max out my spells then get 1.5X fire.

As for cold snap, can it work with cone of fire shatter multiple critters?

I'm thinking they are done with the three nerfed spells and any improvements will come with other spells. At any rate, for many mages there were plenty of neat implementations.

I'm mostly using Rapid Fire for cones when there's a swarm then use the remainder of up time on single critters. I often hunt without having cast it or having only cast it one time due to only 1 swarm.

Sorry for the ramble, been sleep deprived all this week.... heh.


Just an elf about town...
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 186
| author = GS4-CYRAEX
| date = on 08/29/2015 01:28 PM PDT
| subject = HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!
}}
The following update has been made to Stone Skin (520). Training in Elemental Lore, Earth provides a % chance, using a seed 9 summation, for a reactive vibration flares to occur when struck with an AS/DS attack.

Enjoy!

GameMaster Cyraex
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1860
| author = RROY
| date = on 04/15/2016 10:24 PM PDT
| subject = (RF)
}}
I hear ya Raggler, I like a lot of the changes via the ELR as the only nerf to my playstyle was Rapid Fire... I hate the clunky 1 sec CRT, but don't mind the cooldown, and I like the fact that it doesn't autoprep anymore.

If it were reworked such that EMC had to be trained in to use it with higher level spells which when unlocked would disallow the low mana cost spells. So early on 901 would work without the 1 sec CRT, but it would require 202 or 303 ranks to be able to Rapid Fire 435. Say at 303 ranks the lowest spell that could be Rapid Fired would be 10th level, at 202 ranks you could only Rapid Fire 20th circle, but the bottom spell would be say 6th circle. You would need EMC at level at least to be able to Rapid Fire with 0 CRT so if someone wanted to plink away with 901 it would be without any benefits from
cooldown reduction and still have the 1 sec CRT.

With a mage able to 910 Rapid Fire the limiter would be mana...

Sorry I'm tired so this might not be worded clearly.

Just an elf about town...
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1861
| author = CANDIDE
| date = on 04/15/2016 11:04 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
"So I'm not sure if anyone has posted this yet, but it does indeed work with Cone of Earth. I only have 10 ranks of water lore, so it's only barely working for me. In certain situations, probably not while solo hunting, but at least in a group, or in bandits, or anywhere else I'm just sorta kicking around,-Raggler"

My wizard changed to 30 ranks of Water lore for major acid and that gives him a "hefty" 40 percent chance to shatter. I am guessing 50 ranks of air lore will be his next post cap goal after spells.

Currently he is at 24 air, 20 earth, 22 fire, 30 water at 8.5 million experience so it will be awhile. But my CS is only 530 or so with the 500's and frankly that misses way too often for my liking, and my prospects for going much higher are slim as I am considering a 129 major, 97 wizard, 77 minor final spell total for a 540CS?

My problem with this spell right now is that TD is high and it doesn't work on more creatures. Maybe TD was helped by recent confluence changes. Now it just needs to work on them.

GBB
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1862
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 04/16/2016 01:34 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>and I like the fact that it doesn't autoprep anymore.''

What's funny is those elemental rings that let you summon a ball of whatever with a bunch of scripts, when you cast spells at it to recharge it with rapid fire it still works like prenerf with 0 RT and spell re-prep.

If only i could figure out how to trigger that in combat.

~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs:
http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1863
| author = RROY
| date = on 04/16/2016 06:41 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
Ut oh! Elemental ring nerf incoming lol.

Just an elf about town...
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1864
| author = PCOFFEY77
| date = on 04/16/2016 07:47 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>Thank all the Arkati we weren't threatened with cats. . . ''

Worse - Taylor Swift.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1865
| author = GAROFALOA
| date = on 04/16/2016 08:18 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
Of those 58 probably 10 more actual players the rest were Bots... Just saying
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1866
| author = PCOFFEY77
| date = on 04/17/2016 05:36 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
Still seeing a few things..

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cold Snap...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an Ithzir janissary.
An airy mist rolls into the area, carrying a harsh chill with it.
CS: +504 - TD: +450 + CvA: +19 + d100: +78 == +151
Warding failed!
The mist leaves an Ithzir seer's lower half encased in a thick block of ice.
Just as you 512, the Ithzir janissary shimmers and fades away, leaving you gesturing at nothingness!
The mist leaves a thin layer of ice on an Ithzir janissary's lower half, but he easily shakes it off.
Just as you 512, the Ithzir janissary shimmers and fades away, leaving you gesturing at nothingness!
The mist leaves a thin layer of ice on an Ithzir janissary's lower half, but she easily shakes it off.
The scintillating silver light surrounding the runestaff fades some.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

And also, I'm only getting one cast of 903 to You hurl a stream of water at an Ithzir initiate, but it freezes just before impact. Carefully, you summon the chunk of ice back to your hand...

Are we not supposed to be able to summon it back multiple times based on trainings? I have 50 Water Lore...
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1867
| author = PCOFFEY77
| date = on 04/17/2016 05:39 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>I have 50 Water Lore...''

So if I understand the Summation Chart correctly, I should get 4 shots at 46 trainings...
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1868
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 04/17/2016 10:12 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
I've had to put off my testing until sometime in the coming week due to unexpected company from out of state dropping in for a visit.

-- Robert

Raggler squeakily says, "Muffins are also known to be one of the most healthiest foods in the world."

Raggler squeakily says, "It's a fact."
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1869
| author = BLACKKOBOLD2
| date = on 04/17/2016 03:56 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
It may not be reasonable to hold Simutronics to the same expectations as companies that actually pay their developers. Simutronics obviously has fewer resources available. However, it is for that reason that I hold them to an even higher standard as far as planning. If Blizzard botches a major content patch and a class ends up not where it should be, they can fix it within days or weeks. When Simutronics does the same, the turnaround time can be (and usually is!) years. Given that, it's reasonable to expect them to have a plan and disappointing when they don't appear to have one.

Of course, players aren't privy to the same information as GMs and the NDA ties their hands at times with regard to what information they can release. But the information we received does not paint a pretty picture for the premise that this is part of a grand plan to make wizards better than ever. When the nerfs were first announced and the criticism began, we were told that the ELR is not a class review. It was never intended to compensate for the nerfs, which appear to have been added on at some point during the process. Much of the ELR was actually an unfinished project started by GM Naos years ago and implemented more or less as he intended. Finally, we have the vague indication by the APM that if we're ever going to have nice things it will have to be without rapid fire/haste/immolate in their previous form - tacit admission of the significance of the nerfs.

So, my negative tone aside, I guess I'm wondering what you're seeing as far as "the plan" goes, RROY? Do you see one? At all? Maybe my expectations simply don't match reality. I really wanted to believe that when Wyrom mentioned the nerfs removing a barrier to a better design, he was in fact referring to a plan of action that included replacing what was taken from wizards with something better.

I gather from your lack of enthusiasm, RROY, that the ELR didn't exactly light up your world either. I also gather that you're willing to put up with that, for the love of the game. I sometimes wish I could! But at some point - once the glow of avoiding a mass wizard exodus wears off - it might be time for you to get on board and start asking where this is all headed. You'd be doing me a favor because I'd really like to know whether or not I should be wasting my time returning to these forums every few months!

~Taverkin
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 187
| author = ERYKK2
| date = on 08/29/2015 01:37 PM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!
}}
The following update has been made to Stone Skin (520). Training in Elemental Lore, Earth provides a % chance, using a seed 9 summation, for a reactive vibration flares to occur when struck with an AS/DS attack.Enjoy!GameMaster Cyraex

And as you can see Krakii, none of our suggestions are even being considered in the slightest.

Reactive vibe flares for a class that makes every attempt to not be hit because it's pretty much guaranteed death?

009 ranks = 1019 ranks = 2030 ranks = 3042 ranks = 4055 ranks = 5069 ranks = 6084 ranks = 7100 ranks = 8117 ranks = 9135 ranks = 10154 ranks = 11174 ranks = 12195 ranks = 13

100 ranks for an 8% chance for a reactive flare that will never trigger because as a Wizard you spell tank to avoid being hit.

I'm really starting to question who is designing these spells, and if they know anything about Wizards at all. They clearly have no idea what Wizards need, or how they play, or what efforts they take to stay alive, like having a DS high enough to not be hit.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1870
| author = BLACKKOBOLD2
| date = on 04/17/2016 05:05 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
It might also help to explain my perspective on what I'm looking for as far as a plan (and what I'm not looking for!).

Obviously, I'm not expecting the GMs to show up and share every detail about the future. Not only would their NDA prevent them from doing so, but it would be unwise to appear to promise one thing and months or years later deliver another. I understand that. What I'm looking for is a general course of action. Where do we stand, where are we going, and how are we going to get there in general terms?

My expectation is that lores will ultimately define distinctive builds, or sub-classes. My basic definition for a build is a distinctive and viable playstyle with a training path to achieve it. Immolate was the barest skeleton of that definition. You train heavy fire lore and overtrain MjE spells post-cap. Done. There was little else to define the build. On the other hand, training 24 ranks in air lore to achieve those benefits, while certainly a popular choice, does not constitute a build. It's viable. It was a training path to some extent. But there's nothing distinctive about picking up a handful of minor abilities that don't significantly alter your playstyle.

Other games do this a lot better than we do. Every class has multiple builds, defined by the choices they make with regard to gearing and skills. You might say that this parallels GS, with wizards choosing a "pure" or "war" mage variant. While it's true that the war mage is a build, it shares much of the one-dimensionality of rapid shock and immolate. The build is still defined by a single spell, with very little in the way of dedicated support.

That's what I had hoped to see the ELR address in the long term. Unfortunately, nothing in the ELR produced a distinctive playstyle.

That's a tough nut to crack, though. Planning is key. Implementing spells as they're finished doesn't work out well. How could immolate not be underwhelming if released far in advance of its support structure? The answer is that immolate could only be appealing under those conditions if it were overpowered. That's why immolate worked in the first place. It was so powerful that it justified heavy lore training all on its own. Give it support and it just becomes more powerful (or your support spells never get used!). Conversely, releasing a weak version of the spell now so that it will be appropriately powerful as part of a complete fire build later simply disappoints players in the here and now.

So, that's my problem with the whole ELR. No plan. It feels muddled, and whatever they're going to do to create the builds Wyrom indicated were the eventual goal of these nerfs seems far off in the future. So far, in fact, that I've heard nothing to indicate that such a plan actually exists beyond Wyrom's vague observation that one-trick pony spells are problematic when designing builds and should be removed on that basis. Why that had to happen immediately when they were so clearly not ready to proceed is beyond me. Call it poor planning?

~Taverkin
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1871
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 04/17/2016 07:13 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
I had a little time left over this evening so made a quick run to the temple. It seems like we've taken another step forward and then two backwards with this spell yet again but maybe the RNG was working against me some this hunt. So my limited data observations so far...

1) In the past, when I would cast this spell the critters would frequently drop to the ground and roll giving you the benefit of them now being prone and in round time.

Log example from a hunt last week:


''>look''
[Ruined Temple, Second Floor]
Drops of water fall from the ceiling with a barely audible splash, joining the tiny streams that flow through the intricately carved grooves in the floor. A single arched window, its edges worn from time and the elements, rests along the southern wall. You also see a triton radical, a bundle of brackish green arrows, a small puddle and the brown Faulkil disk.
Obvious exits: north, east, west

A triton combatant strides in, a wary look on her face.

A triton radical falls to the floor and rolls, trying to smother the flames that surround it.
The flames surrounding a triton radical continue to burn.


Now it appears that 100% of the time the critter is instead remaining standing and flailing:


A siren flails wildly, trying to extinguish the flames that surround her.


2) Additionally, it now seems that 100% of the time if there is water present then immolation will end immediately after it was cast.

You gesture at a triton radical.
The dull golden nimbus surrounding a triton radical suddenly begins to glow brightly.
CS: +535 - TD: +440 + CvA: +20 + d100: +13 == +128
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a triton radical and she bursts into flame causing 8 points of damage!
... 20 points of damage!
Flames engulf head searing hair and scalp. Sickening!
... 20 points of damage!
Nasty burns to left arm. Gonna need lots of butter.
... 15 points of damage!
Burst of flames chars neck a crispy black.
... 3 points of damage!
Minor burns to left arm. That hurts a bit.
The flames around a triton radical continue to burn!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.

The flames surrounding a triton radical quickly die down as steam rises around her.


I'll have to dig through my logs but I am fairly certain that critters used to drop and roll at least some of the time in these rooms previously (and sometime there would be the bug where they mysteriously weren't on fire any more). Is it intended to be 100% chance of extinguishing the fire in wet rooms going forward? I can see why this might occur ''some'' of the time but given we are not totally submerged in water I don't agree that this should be a 100% of the time occurrence. Maybe give them an increased chance of putting the fire out in a watery room when they drop and roll or something like that.

3) Finally, the messaging seems to be forgetting which room it is in now... I've highlighted several flares that occurred on a radical that wasn't in the room with us. Notice how the radical is conveniently ignoring that is is on fire and choosing to cast in this example as well...

''>look''
[Ruined Temple, Third Floor]
From the submerged floor below, water laps gently, echoing through this roofless chamber. An armless statue of a woman gazes upon a collapsed section of wall, soot marring her otherwise flawless ivory visage. Bleached bones lay in the shadow of the statue. You also see an eerie crimson mist, a water elemental that is lying down, the earth brown Faulkil disk, a triton combatant that appears dead, a triton radical and a spiral staircase.
Also here: the body of Yactaevia who is lying down
Obvious paths: northeast, northwest

A triton radical steeples her clawed fingers together, murmuring a quick incantation.

The flames surrounding a triton radical flare up violently...
... 10 points of damage!
Burst of flames to head catches ears on fire! Yeeoww!
The flames around a triton radical continue to burn!

''>''
Flames from the very bowels of the world's core erupt to consume you!
CS: +409 - TD: +448 + CvA: +12 + d100: +2 - -5 == -20
Warded off!

>drag yac stair
You grab Yactaevia and drag her body with you...

[Ruined Temple, Second Floor]
A spiral staircase climbs up to third floor of the temple, and is flanked on either side by a large stone statue carved to resemble a large water droplet. The flooded water reaches to the statues' middles, where wavy patterns have been formed by years of erosion. A single tapestry, soaked with moisture, hangs from the northwestern wall, and a rusted iron bar rests opposite it. You also see some muck.
Also here: the body of Yactaevia who is lying down
Obvious exits: southeast, southwest

Your disk arrives, following you dutifully.
''>'Let's get you to town''
You say, "Let's get you to town."
''>''
A triton executioner leaps from hiding to attack!
A triton executioner swings a coral-hilted sharply tapered longsword at you!
You barely dodge the attack!
''>''
.cc 906

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.]
stance offensive
incant 906
stance defensive

[Script finished!]
You are now in an offensive stance.
''>Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Fire...''
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a triton executioner.
You hurl a stream of fire at a triton executioner!
AS: +510 vs DS: +326 with AvD: +34 + d100 roll: +52 = +270
... and hit for 121 points of damage!
Left arm incinerated. Unfortunate.
The executioner's black steel buckler falls to the ground.
The triton executioner is stunned!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.
''>''
The flames surrounding a triton radical flare up violently...
''>look''
[Ruined Temple, Second Floor]
A spiral staircase climbs up to third floor of the temple, and is flanked on either side by a large stone statue carved to resemble a large water droplet. The flooded water reaches to the statues' middles, where wavy patterns have been formed by years of erosion. A single tapestry, soaked with moisture, hangs from the northwestern wall, and a rusted iron bar rests opposite it. You also see a silver-rimmed black steel buckler, the earth brown Faulkil disk, a triton executioner that appears stunned and some muck.
Also here: the body of Yactaevia who is lying down
Obvious exits: southeast, southwest
''>''
''>''
The flames surrounding a triton radical flare up violently...
''>''
A triton executioner leaps from hiding to attack!
A triton executioner swings a coral-hilted sharply tapered longsword at you!
AS: +433 vs DS: +683 with AvD: +39 + d100 roll: +19 = -192
A clean miss.
''>''
.cc 906

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.]
stance offensive
incant 906
stance defensive

[Script finished!]
You are now in an offensive stance.
''>Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Fire...''
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a triton executioner.
You hurl a stream of fire at a triton executioner!
AS: +514 vs DS: +271 with AvD: +34 + d100 roll: +57 = +334
... and hit for 162 points of damage!
Permanently debilitating burns across stomach.
Some of the flames from the stream of fire linger around a triton executioner.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.
''>stare exe''
You stare at a triton executioner.
''>look''
[Ruined Temple, Second Floor]
A spiral staircase climbs up to third floor of the temple, and is flanked on either side by a large stone statue carved to resemble a large water droplet. The flooded water reaches to the statues' middles, where wavy patterns have been formed by years of erosion. A single tapestry, soaked with moisture, hangs from the northwestern wall, and a rusted iron bar rests opposite it. You also see a triton executioner, a silver-rimmed black steel buckler, the earth brown Faulkil disk, a triton executioner that appears stunned and some muck.
Also here: the body of Yactaevia who is lying down
Obvious exits: southeast, southwest
''>''
A triton executioner swings a coral-hilted sharply tapered longsword at you!
AS: +433 vs DS: +683 with AvD: +39 + d100 roll: +36 = -175
A clean miss.
''>prep sleep''
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Sleep...
Your spell is ready.
''>''
The flames around a triton executioner continue to burn!
... 25 points of damage!
Flames burn hole in chest exposing ribs!
The triton executioner collapses to the floor with a splash, gurgling once with a wrathful look on her face before expiring.
''>cast exe''
You gesture at a triton executioner.
CS: +535 - TD: +402 + CvA: +20 + d100: +9 == +162
Warding failed!
A triton executioner's eyes roll up into her head as she slumps to the ground.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>look''
[Ruined Temple, Second Floor]
A spiral staircase climbs up to third floor of the temple, and is flanked on either side by a large stone statue carved to resemble a large water droplet. The flooded water reaches to the statues' middles, where wavy patterns have been formed by years of erosion. A single tapestry, soaked with moisture, hangs from the northwestern wall, and a rusted iron bar rests opposite it. You also see a triton executioner that is sleeping, a silver-rimmed black steel buckler, the earth brown Faulkil disk, a triton executioner that appears dead and some muck.
Also here: the body of Yactaevia who is lying down
Obvious exits: southeast, southwest
''>''
The flames surrounding a triton radical flare up violently...
''>''
Yactaevia gives a ghostly chuckle.
''>''
You feel at full magical power again.
''>incant 930''
You trace a series of glowing runes while chanting the phrase for Familiar Gate...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture.
Pale, swirling mist begins to billow out from nothingness before you, and quickly coalesces into a small orb of shifting essence. Suddenly, the orb expands and forms an elliptical portal of swirling blues and blacks, its edges shrouded in dancing blue-white mist.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
A triton executioner breathes quietly in her sleep, sending small disturbances through the surface of the water.
''>drag yac mist''
[Assuming you mean a shifting portal.]
You drag Yactaevia through the shifting portal.



-- Robert

Raggler squeakily says, "Muffins are also known to be one of the most healthiest foods in the world."

Raggler squeakily says, "It's a fact."
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1872
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 04/17/2016 07:41 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
Regarding Item 2) in my prior post. I am actually positive that immolation used to work in the 'muck areas' ''nearly all of the time'' as this is my opener on sentries to keep them from casting. If the new behavior is intended that immolation always fizzle out in a muck area immediately after casting then the spell is now pretty much useless for hunting the third floor of nelemar any more. We already have a high warding margin to overcome (see the whole 80% of the time discussion earlier on) so I seriously hope this new 100% fizzle behavior is not intended (and it definitely is a new behavior introduced with the most recent round of changes.

-- Robert

Raggler squeakily says, "Muffins are also known to be one of the most healthiest foods in the world."

Raggler squeakily says, "It's a fact."
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1873
| author = RROY
| date = on 04/17/2016 09:00 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
Aversion,

I Spent over an hour composing a post only to hit the wrong spot on my tablet causing it to be lost. The next few days I'm working crazy amounts of hours, but will post when I'm off work and on my computer. It's just too hard with my vision problems to do on the tablet.

Just an elf about town...
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1874
| author = BLACKKOBOLD2
| date = on 04/18/2016 05:19 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
Wait a sec. I got this!

See, we fixed the bug that was previously causing immolate to work where it wasn't intended to work. But don't worry. You can use immolate in places other than Nelemar. It's just one hunting ground. On an unrelated note, if you wanted to use water spells for a watery area like Nelemar...too bad! We haven't figured that part out yet. Wait around a few years until we do.

Am I doin' it right?

~Taverkin
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1875
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 04/18/2016 06:07 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
I'd like to see Immolate get changed to work like 518 in regards to which element is used.

Most of our spells should work that way actually. Hopefully if/when they do this they'll make Immolate not be garbage too.

Move it to 525/530 and un-nerf it. Problem solved. Now it's on par with 1030 and nobody can say it's OP because bards are fine.

~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs:
http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1876
| author = DOUG
| date = on 04/18/2016 08:50 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>>Am I doin' it right?''

I don't think so. I think you're better than this.

Doug
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1877
| author = GAROFALOA
| date = on 04/18/2016 11:04 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>Unfortunately just because it might be the same 4 or 5 individuals that are loudly discouraged with the changes wizards are going through, doesn't mean there aren't a great many of us who are waiting fairly silently in the background for a more balanced outcome.''

Don't take MY silence to mean i'm accepting what's being done to wizards. Methais just expresses my fury more eloquently and intelligently.
I'm waiting, somewhat patiently. A little less desirous to retire Hapenlok since i performed a fixstats, and corrected a lot of stat placement screwups i made back in 2006 when i started my wizard.(Thanks Tsoran....wherever you are...)
To date, the only changes that's benefitted me even a little bit was the fire lore change to 513, but even that isn't as good as it should be due to my fire lore not being where it should be. And possibly the double strike with 415....a spell which i rarely use due to still only being 1x harness power(my fault in training). Stackable Haste kind of works for me but...(see below)

I don't like the fact that water lore is being(seemingly) shoved down everyone's throats....I'll take a lot of flak for this, but you know, when i started my character, my character's back-story and RP involves the use of fire. I picked up my 24 ranks of air lore for the tonis bolt and the extra disk space.
I don't like the fact that elemental strike is our professions' better alternative now that immolation is a joke. my minor elemental CS is almost a full 25 points lower than my Major/wizard. and there's no way i'm correcting that now.
I don't like that we STILL can't triple in lores.
I don't like rapid fire. period.
I now have to air lore more if i want my reduced RT to be even close to what it was.
I don't like the fact that i'm still having to use bolts, even though my plan was to migrate to a CS spell based wizard. right now? i'm training in weapons and cmans. because ...why bother?
I still hate alchemy.(had to bring that up)
I hate how our enchant times are still so long. is there even a purpose to this anymore? considering we can't even do anything higher than 7x

Basically, i feel like i'm eating an offal sandwich here. You know, i started playing a wizard, because being a warrior got stale. I really enjoyed playing a wizard. I feel like i'm being punished for doing something i really enjoy. It really doesn't make me so enthused about paying for a premium account. I'm not exaggerating when i say that if it hadn't been for the Continuing Saga in the landing i probably would have just retired.

Before some smart guy brings up the 58/300 players a night being wizards again? Check the whereabouts of said wizards, i'll bet you $5 that 60 percent of them are at tables.

Anyway, i'm going to stop beating on this dead horse. I'll be watching. and waiting. Maybe i'll see an upside.
But until then, a fire mage, i started and a fire mage i'll try to be.....even though the powers that be don't like that, apparently.
And i'm going to continue weapons training post-cap.
since i have no idea what to do right now. since the lore review.


~Andrew
Hapenlok's Player
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1878
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 04/18/2016 11:18 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
VANKRASN39Is the Water Walking effect still applicable?

It is not.

PCOFFEY77Still seeing a few things..Just as you 512, the Ithzir janissary shimmers and fades away, leaving you gesturing at nothingness!And also, I'm only getting one cast of 903 to You hurl a stream of water at an Ithzir initiate, but it freezes just before impact. Carefully, you summon the chunk of ice back to your hand...

Both of these issues should be fixed. Thanks for reporting it.

GameMaster Estild
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1879
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 04/18/2016 11:21 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
I've made two updates to Cold Snap (512):

1.) It will now work on non-corporeal targets; however, they are able to better guard against the spell (+TD bonus of creature's level / 10). Creatures made out of fire or that emanate heat will continue to be immune (fire elementals, etc).
2.) The spell now has a minimum duration of 8 seconds.

GameMaster Estild
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 188
| author = ERYKK2
| date = on 08/29/2015 01:45 PM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!
}}
Let's compare this to 716:

When cast, the sorcerer creates a sickly miasmal aura around them self. All creatures that attack the sorcerer have a chance to contract the potentially deadly pestilence that flows through it. Upon attacking the sorcerer, there is a base 25% chance that the aura will reactively fire on the attacker, using a hidden CS roll. If the aura's attack hits, the attacker will take immediate rot damage (disintegrate), along with some disease damage (disintegrate) over time.The spell has a standard spell duration (1200 seconds + 60 seconds per spell rank) and a set number of charges. The base is 5 charges, increasing by +1 per seed 9 summation of Sorcerous Lore, Necromancy. Once all charges are used up, the self-cast spell fades.

BASE of 25% vs our 0%

Same "reactive" flare type

Immediate damage, PLUS DoT damage

And the best part? Used for ANY attack, you don't have to actually be hit (and die) for it to react.

Where are our additions like this?
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1880
| author = PC1234
| date = on 04/18/2016 11:32 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
Creatures made out of fire or that emanate heat will continue to be immune (fire elementals, etc).GameMaster Estild

That seems backwards. Creatures made of out of ice should be immune, but if they're made out of the fire, the ice should interact in some way to put out the fire. Even if it just melts into water which extinguishes the fire.

I've never heard of fire being immune to water/ice.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1881
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 04/18/2016 11:42 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
PC1234That seems backwards. Creatures made of out of ice should be immune, but if they're made out of the fire, the ice should interact in some way to put out the fire. Even if it just melts into water which extinguishes the fire.

Cold Snap itself is a physical barrier. Ice is forming around the target to restrict their actions. As such, just being immune to cold does not mean the target is immune to physical obstacles, cold or not. Creatures made out of fire or that emanate heat (not the same as fire immunity, although such targets are likely to be fire immune as well) cause the freezing mist to warm up and harmlessly dissipate.

GameMaster Estild
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1882
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 04/18/2016 11:43 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>That seems backwards. Creatures made of out of ice should be immune, but if they're made out of the fire, the ice should interact in some way to put out the fire. Even if it just melts into water which extinguishes the fire.''

I agree, in every other case, fire creatures are particularly susceptible to cold/water attacks and vice versa (ice creatures vs. fire attacks).
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1883
| author = DOUG
| date = on 04/18/2016 11:44 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
I tentatively like this change. Being able to manage crowd control inclusive of non-corps is useful. About the only negative things are - of course non-corps don't suffer from the impact crit scenarios (dern), and then - there's the continuing crawler breakout.

Doug


[The Rift]
You notice a lost soul and a slender silvery thread.
Obvious exits: east, southwest, northwest
''>''
A vaespilon drags herself in!
''>''
With a slow, inching lumber, an enormous rift crawler worms its way in.
''>incant 512''
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cold Snap...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a lost soul.
An airy mist rolls into the room, carrying a harsh chill with it.
CS: + --- - TD: +451 + CvA: +25 + d100: + --- == + ---
Warding failed!
The mist leaves an enormous rift crawler's lower half encased in a thick block of ice.
CS: + --- - TD: +439 + CvA: +15 + d100: + --- == + ---
Warding failed!
The mist leaves a vaespilon's lower half encased in a thick block of ice.
CS: + --- - TD: +421 + CvA: +15 + d100: + --- == + ---
Warding failed!
The mist leaves a lost soul's lower half encased in a thick block of ice.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
incant 512

Mmm-Mmmph.

''>''
A lost soul swings a scorched black ball and chain at you!
AS: +374 vs DS: + --- with AvD: +17 + d100 roll: + --- = - ---
A clean miss.
''>''
A vaespilon swings a blackened wooden staff at you!
AS: +370 vs DS: + --- with AvD: +23 + d100 roll: + --- = - ---
A clean miss.
''>''
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cold Snap...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a lost soul.
An airy mist rolls into the room, carrying a harsh chill with it.
CS: + --- - TD: +451 + CvA: +25 + d100: + --- == + ---
Warding failed!
The mist builds upon the existing thick block of ice, expanding it to cover an enormous rift crawler's entire body, trapping it in an icy tomb.
CS: + --- - TD: +439 + CvA: +15 + d100: + --- == + ---
Warding failed!
The mist builds upon the existing thick block of ice, expanding it to cover a vaespilon's entire body, trapping her in an icy tomb.
CS: + --- - TD: +421 + CvA: +15 + d100: + --- == + ---
Warding failed!
The mist builds upon the existing thick block of ice, expanding it to cover a lost soul's entire body, trapping her in an icy tomb.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>l''
[The Rift]
You notice an enormous rift crawler (frozen), a vaespilon (frozen), a lost soul (frozen) and a slender silvery thread.
Obvious exits: east, southwest, northwest
''>''
An enormous rift crawler begins moving again.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1884
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 04/18/2016 12:00 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>1.) It will now work on non-corporeal targets; however, they are able to better guard against the spell (+TD bonus of creature's level / 10).''

This is a very helpful and appreciated fix. Thank you!

''>If a target is drenched from the Minor Water (903 or 518) lore effect or if you cast the spell in a watery room, the affected target(s) get -25 TD.''

This part doesn't seem to be happening.

''>inc 512''
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cold Snap...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an ethereal triton sentry.
An airy mist rolls into the area, carrying a harsh chill with it.
The dull golden nimbus surrounding an ethereal triton sentry suddenly begins to glow brightly.
CS: +554 - TD: +473 + CvA: +25 + d100: +46 == +152
Warding failed!
The mist builds upon the existing thick block of ice, expanding it to cover an ethereal triton sentry's entire body, trapping her in an icy tomb.
CS: +554 - TD: +505 + CvA: +25 + d100: +95 == +169
Warding failed!
As the mist touches the surface of the thick block of ice encasing a greater water elemental, it solidifies, reinforcing the icy tomb.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

''>inc 519''
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...
Your spell is ready.
You channel at a greater water elemental.
CS: +554 - TD: +520 + CvA: +25 + d100: +61 == +120
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a greater water elemental and it bursts into flame causing 50 points of damage!
... 70 points of damage!
The water elemental gurgles in agony as steam billows about!
As the fire strikes the ice block surrounding a greater water elemental, a rush of steam is released!
... 25 points of damage!
The ice block encasing a greater water elemental partially melts away, leaving only its lower half froze.
... 40 points of damage!
The water elemental gurgles in agony as steam billows about!
As the fire strikes the ice block surrounding a greater water elemental, a rush of steam is released!
... 65 points of damage!
The ice block encasing a greater water elemental partially melts away, leaving only its lower half froze.
... 50 points of damage!
The water elemental gurgles in agony as steam billows about!
As the fire strikes the ice block surrounding a greater water elemental, a rush of steam is released!
... 25 points of damage!
The ice block encasing a greater water elemental partially melts away, leaving only its lower half froze.
... 20 points of damage!
The water elemental gurgles in agony as steam billows about!
As the fire strikes the ice block surrounding a greater water elemental, a rush of steam is released!
... 20 points of damage!
The ice block encasing a greater water elemental partially melts away, leaving only its lower half froze.
The flame surrounding a greater water elemental quickly die down.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1885
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 04/18/2016 12:10 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
Also, not sure if this is intentional, but the Major Elemental TDs for 519 and 512 for the same creature aren't the same:

''>inc 519''
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...
Your spell is ready.
You channel at a triton combatant.
CS: +554 - TD: +390 + CvA: +25 + d100: +22 == +211
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a triton combatant and he bursts into flame causing 84 points of damage!
... 50 points of damage!
A large patch of flesh is seared off a triton combatant's back.
... 30 points of damage!
Extreme heat causes a triton combatant's right arm to expand and snap. That must hurt!
... 20 points of damage!
Nasty burns to abdomen, a triton combatant shrieks in pain!
... 1 point of damage!
Minor burns to left hand. Ouch.
The flames around a triton combatant continue to burn!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
Roundtime: 3 sec.
(Forcing stance down to guarded)

R>inc 512
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cold Snap...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a triton combatant.
An airy mist rolls into the room, carrying a harsh chill with it.
CS: +554 - TD: +365 + CvA: +25 + d100: +18 == +232
Warding failed!
The mist leaves a triton combatant's lower half encased in a thick block of ice.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1887
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 04/18/2016 12:17 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>Okay, it says the mist dissipates into a steam. Isn't steam just hot water vapor? Water doesn't have any effect on fire now?''

Fire creatures (elementals at least) have sadly always been fire/steam/acid immune for whatever reason.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1888
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 04/18/2016 12:57 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
DESTINY14This part doesn't seem to be happening.512: CS: +554 - TD: +505 + CvA: +25 + d100: +95 == +169519: CS: +554 - TD: +520 + CvA: +25 + d100: +61 == +120

It's working correctly. The water elemental was drenched, so gets -25 TD. However, it's non-corporeal, so also gets +10 (level (105) / 10) TD. So the net result is -15 TD from your 512.

GameMaster Estild
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1889
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 04/18/2016 01:10 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>It's working correctly. The water elemental was drenched, so gets -25 TD. However, it's non-corporeal, so also gets +10 (level (105) / 10) TD. So the net result is -15 TD from your 512.''

Okay, I understand now, and it looks like the same applies for the combatant.

This satisfies half of my wizard post-cap requests, so thank you again for making the needed adjustments.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 189
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 08/29/2015 01:49 PM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!
}}
716 is ridiculous. It flares 30-40 damage per hit even on complete attack misses. This seed 9 and 10 thing on top of everything else just makes it just as useless as it was before.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1890
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 04/18/2016 01:12 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>The ice block encasing a greater water elemental partially melts away, leaving only its lower half froze.''

This last word seems to be a grammatical typo though instead of frozen.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1891
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 04/18/2016 01:29 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
DESTINY14This last word seems to be a grammatical typo though instead of frozen.

Fixed.

GameMaster Estild
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1892
| author = BLACKKOBOLD2
| date = on 04/18/2016 01:30 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''

You've been posting more or less the same complaint regarding a lack of planning/direction. Congratulations on managing to moderate your tone.

~Taverkin
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1893
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 04/18/2016 01:39 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
I still think the duration formula (warding margin / 5) + 3 needs to be lightened up some, but the non-corporeal thing is a nice buff.

How about for fire instead of being immune to it, its duration is cut in half? Fire doesn't usually melt ice instantly, especially a big block of it.


~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs:
http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1894
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 04/18/2016 01:49 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>I still think the duration formula (warding margin / 5) + 3 needs to be lightened up some, but the non-corporeal thing is a nice buff.''

It's hard to complain about this part when we now have the same minimum as 316. However, 316 (and 135) can benefit from 340, while elemental spells only receive the Truehand benefit.

Can a NIR confirm that the 8 second duration starts after the second cast when the creature is immobilized?

Finally, can there be an alternative to pay the 24 mana upfront in a single CHANNELed 512 cast, which also gives 3 seconds of hard RT but negates the need to sit through 3 seconds of potential vulnerability after the targets are rooted but not immobilized?
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1895
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 04/18/2016 03:17 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
''>It's hard to complain about this part when we now have the same minimum as 316. However, 316 (and 135) can benefit from 340, while elemental spells only receive the Truehand benefit.''

It's not really a huge deal, since the only effect it would have on me would be on the fire side in the Confluence, which I usually stick to the cold side because fire4lyfe. I don't know the mechanics of 316 other than it freezes things in place, but if the durations work the same then that's good enough. I'm just really hoping that MjE gets something else to get me out of this 415 build so I can optimize my CS again. I like 415 itself I just really hate splitting my CS. It just makes hunting much less annoying than using Immolate, even with the reduced CS.

~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs:
http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1896
| author = PCOFFEY77
| date = on 04/18/2016 06:20 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!
}}
Thanks! I appreciate the quick fix.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1897
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 04/19/2016 06:29 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
I went ahead and bugged the new issues this morning:

Submitted bug "Immolation - new bugs introduced with last bug fix" to play.net's bug tracking database under category "Magic" with these details:
"Three issues - critters not dropping to the ground when putting out flames, spell fizzles 100% of the time in damp rooms immediately after casting (before it was maybe 5%?), messaging showing up in other rooms. Details in Wizards->Major Elemental Circle posts 1871 and 1872"

-- Robert

A siren flails wildly, trying to extinguish the flames that surround her.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1898
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 04/19/2016 01:38 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
Robert1) In the past, when I would cast this spell the critters would frequently drop to the ground and roll giving you the benefit of them now being prone and in round time.

Fixed.

Robert2) Additionally, it now seems that 100% of the time if there is water present then immolation will end immediately after it was cast.I'll have to dig through my logs but I am fairly certain that critters used to drop and roll at least some of the time in these rooms previously (and sometime there would be the bug where they mysteriously weren't on fire any more). Is it intended to be 100% chance of extinguishing the fire in wet rooms going forward? I can see why this might occur ''some'' of the time but given we are not totally submerged in water I don't agree that this should be a 100% of the time occurrence. Maybe give them an increased chance of putting the fire out in a watery room when they drop and roll or something like that.

Being in a watery room would always extinguish the flames early and always after rolling exactly 1 time (for creatures). I took a copy of the spell from 2012 (as it stayed exactly the same until 2016) to verify:

''>''An ethereal triton sentry chants in an incomprehensible language, causing streams of dim grey energy to lash about its hands.''>incant 519''You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...Your spell is ready.You gesture at an ethereal triton sentry. CS: +545 - TD: +437 + CvA: +25 + d100: +26 == +159 Warding failed!Wisps of black smoke swirl around an ethereal triton sentry and it bursts into flame! ... 35 points of damage! Painful attack flays the leg from thigh to calf. New skin lies, snakelike, beneath the old. It is knocked to the ground! ... 20 points of damage! A fine strike immobilizes the left leg for an instant. The triton sentry looks miffed. ... 25 points of damage! Massive blow strikes the triton sentry and drives it back! Good thing those ribs aren't made of bone.The flames around an ethereal triton sentry continue to burn!Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.''>''An ethereal triton sentry rolls around on the floor, trying to smother the flames that surround it.The flames surrounding an ethereal triton sentry continue to burn.''>''The flames surrounding an ethereal triton sentry quickly die down as steam rises around it.''>''An ethereal triton sentry points an ethereal, clawed finger toward you! CS: +426 - TD: +436 + CvA: +15 + d100: +54 == +59 Warded off!''>''An ethereal triton sentry stands up with a grunt.

I've updated it to match the old functionality of getting at least one attempted roll before the flames are extinguished.

Robert3) Finally, the messaging seems to be forgetting which room it is in now... I've highlighted several flares that occurred on a radical that wasn't in the room with us. Notice how the radical is conveniently ignoring that is is on fire and choosing to cast in this example as well...

Fixed.

GameMaster Estild
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1899
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 04/19/2016 04:05 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
Excellent. Thank you and agree on the updated version of 2) (not that you needed my agreement :p).

I'll do some more testing over the next few days!

-- Robert

Raggler squeakily says, "Muffins are also known to be one of the most healthiest foods in the world."

Raggler squeakily says, "It's a fact."
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 190
| author = TANDL
| date = on 08/29/2015 02:18 PM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!
}}
Do the reactive flares have the same strength as what is typically found in flaring armors?

Tal.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1900
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 04/19/2016 05:17 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>> 1) In the past, when I would cast this spell the critters would frequently drop to the ground and roll giving you the benefit of them now being prone and in round time.''

''>> Fixed.''

I'll spare you the logs this time around but I don't see this working yet. At one point I had 5 critters (defenders, radicals, and combatants) all flailing about wildly but none of them were dropping to the ground and rolling. This was in a non-damp room.

-- Robert

Raggler squeakily says, "Muffins are also known to be one of the most healthiest foods in the world."

Raggler squeakily says, "It's a fact."
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1901
| author = ALSTHAR
| date = on 04/19/2016 05:33 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
Perhaps it was just an overly humid day? did you SENSE ROOM with a properly attuned hygrometer in your right hand?
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1902
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 04/19/2016 05:44 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
RobertI'll spare you the logs this time around but I don't see this working yet. At one point I had 5 critters (defenders, radicals, and combatants) all flailing about wildly but none of them were dropping to the ground and rolling. This was in a non-damp room.

If they're flailing about, it's the same as trying to roll around (and unrelated to water), but that messaging should have only applied to creatures that cannot be knocked down. It's fixed now.

GameMaster Estild
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1903
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 04/19/2016 06:22 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
Thank you Estild.

Things seemed to be working as expected for the last half of my hunt this evening! :-) I'll see if I can't break it in some other ways this coming weekend but I didn't see anything obvious left out this round.

I really do appreciate your time and patience in working through all of the issues so that the spell is working as intended.

-- Robert

Raggler squeakily says, "Muffins are also known to be one of the most healthiest foods in the world."

Raggler squeakily says, "It's a fact."
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1904
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 04/20/2016 09:34 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
It just really seems wrong that 415 is still significantly more effective than 519, even with sub-optimal MnE CS and if 519 is CHANNELed in offensive with one open hand.

Also, it seems strange that 415 can utilize the attunement synergies provided by 425 and 502, while 512 and 519 specifically tie you into one element and allow no opportunity to benefit from 502, 425, or follow-up bolts of your character's attunement for all that attunement has been pushed upon us.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1905
| author = PC1234
| date = on 04/22/2016 02:45 PM PDT
| subject = Spell 535 - Still buggy
}}
''>incant 535''
You recite a series of mystical phrases while raising your hands, invoking Haste...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.


Why is there no message being displayed when the spell is cast?
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1906
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 04/22/2016 03:09 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Spell 535 - Still buggy
}}
It went by so fast you missed it? :p

-- Robert

Raggler squeakily says, "Muffins are also known to be one of the most healthiest foods in the world."

Raggler squeakily says, "It's a fact."
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1907
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 04/23/2016 07:36 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
And... we're back to the logs again...

As of today, it seems like either some additional work was done since I tested on 4/19 or the spell was completely reverted to before the couple of rounds of bug fixes.

Two things to notice:
1) Initial RT is not being applied.
2) Even though the critter is ignoring the spell, it is still sputtering out after 1 round in the damp area (100% of the time as near as I can tell). I don't think the critter should get this benefit if they aren't going to roll.


''>n''
[Ruined Temple, Second Floor]
Sections of the eastern wall have been carved out around an arched window, forming permanent shelves. None are currently used, and each is covered with a thin layer of moisture and mold. You also see a triton combatant and some muck.
Obvious exits: north, south, west

.cc immolation
stance offensive
incant immolation
stance defensive
You are now in an offensive stance.
''>Your disk arrives, following you dutifully.''
''>You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...''

Fresh combatant, initial cast of the spell, expecting 10s RT to be applied.

Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a triton combatant.
CS: +535 - TD: +390 + CvA: +25 + d100: +57 == +227
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a triton combatant and she bursts into flame causing 53 points of damage!
... 50 points of damage!
A large patch of flesh is seared off a triton combatant's back.
... 20 points of damage!
Flames incinerate muscle tissue in neck exposing the trachea. More than you ever wanted to see.
... 5 points of damage!
Minor burns to chest. That hurts a bit.
The flames around a triton combatant continue to burn!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

It is now on fire.

''>Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.''
''>look''
[Ruined Temple, Second Floor]
Sections of the eastern wall have been carved out around an arched window, forming permanent shelves. None are currently used, and each is covered with a thin layer of moisture and mold. You also see the earth brown Faulkil disk, a triton combatant and some muck.
Obvious exits: north, south, west
''>.cc manaleech''
stance offensive

Observation: Seems like this cam up rather early.
The flames surrounding a triton combatant flare up violently...
... 5 points of damage!
Minor burns to abdomen. Looks painful.
The flames around a triton combatant continue to burn!


Less than 5s have gone by since I cast the spell and he's swinging at me already!
Per your earlier post there should be 10s of RT applied at the initial cast.

>A triton combatant thrusts with a razor-tined pale green trident at you!
AS: +414 vs DS: +650 with AvD: +27 + 60 + d40 roll: +29 = -120
A clean miss.

''>incant manaleech''
stance defensive
You are now in an offensive stance.
''>You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Mana Leech...''
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a triton combatant.
CS: +535 - TD: +390 + CvA: +25 + d100: +95 == +265
Warding failed!
A dull grey beam momentarily materializes between you and a triton combatant.
She shakes violently!
You feel a sudden rush of power as you absorb 86 mana!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.
''>.def''
stance defensive
You are now in a defensive stance.

I am seeing the spell ignored fairly frequently (which is an option) but it seems like ''every time'' the spell sputters out after 1 round in damp areas ''even when they don't roll''! Honestly I think they need to roll to get the 100% sputter out after 1 round.

>The flames surrounding a triton combatant quickly die down as steam rises around her.


''>A triton combatant thrusts with a razor-tined pale green trident at you!''
AS: +414 vs DS: +688 with AvD: +27 + d100 roll: +8 = -239
A clean miss.

''>.cc 906''
stance offensive
incant 906
stance defensive
You are now in an offensive stance.
''>Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Fire...''
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a triton combatant.
You hurl a stream of fire at a triton combatant!
AS: +510 vs DS: +268 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +13 = +281
... and hit for 89 points of damage!
Flames cook a triton combatant's chest. Looks about medium well.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.''

.cc 906
stance offensive
incant 906stance defensive
You are now in an offensive stance.
''>Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Fire...''
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a triton combatant.
You hurl a stream of fire at a triton combatant!
AS: +514 vs DS: +254 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +46 = +332
... and hit for 96 points of damage!
Nasty burns to chest make you wish you never heard of heartburn.
The triton combatant collapses to the floor with a splash, gurgling once with a wrathful look on her face before expiring.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.''
''>sea comYou search the triton combatant.''
You discard the combatant's useless equipment.
She didn't carry any silver.
She had nothing of interest.
A triton combatant's body sinks into the water, quickly scattering and dissolving out of sight.




-- Robert

Raggler squeakily says, "Muffins are also known to be one of the most healthiest foods in the world."

Raggler squeakily says, "It's a fact."
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1908
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 04/23/2016 07:37 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
Bug submitted:

Immolation seems to have been reverted or new bugs introduced since 4/19
Submitted bug "Immolation seems to have been reverted or new bugs introduced since 4/19" to play.net's bug tracking database under category "Magic" with these details:
"Initial 10s RT not being applied. Flaring seems at a 'different' time than before. See detailed log/post in Wizards->Major Elt->Post 1907."

-- Robert

Raggler squeakily says, "Muffins are also known to be one of the most healthiest foods in the world."

Raggler squeakily says, "It's a fact."
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1909
| author = ZENDADA
| date = on 04/23/2016 08:21 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
Been trying all the wizard spells lately. Immolation seems more like a good opening damage disabler than a killer. I'm finding Major Fire much more more potent, Major Shock pretty nasty (air lore mage), with Hurl Boulder and Minor Acid effective for the mana.

Then again, I stopped at 430, 540, and am barreling towards 950.

Chad, player of a few
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 191
| author = KEITHOBAD
| date = on 08/29/2015 02:37 PM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!
}}
Unless the flare causes certain stun/death, this is a total waste of time and resources (for both mages and GMs).

I'm absolutely sure nobody suggested something like this on our forums because anyone who plays a wizard would find this change totally pointless. And there were a TON of good ideas for this spell on there, so I have to seriously question how these decisions are being made.


Every release brings my hype level down another notch. I started really high. I reactivated my account because I thought wizards were finally getting some love.

My litmus test spells were 418, 512, 514, 504, 520, 502 and 914 (all the really crap ones, basically)
So far:

418 -> worse
512 -> lipstick on a pig
520 -> pointless

So far we're 0/3.

Meanwhile...
haste -> at least 50% worse, maybe more
immolation -> crit kill cut in half. rt part removed (the only part I cared about).
rapid fire -> getting shot out back behind the shed

Boy do I feel silly.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1910
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 04/23/2016 09:11 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
Just revert the spell to pre-nerf and move it to 525/530 already until real wizard fixes can be implemented.

This whole thing has gotten beyond ridiculous.

~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs:
http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1911
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 04/23/2016 11:54 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
121 mana for a 5 cast kill for a single champion in Duskruin and you wonder why wizards are so weak with no effective instant kill next to all the other pures. This is paying the 5 mana penalty too using 515 on cooldown and having lightning strike 3 times for soft CT channeled, one open handed offensive 519.

I wonder how the average character is supposed to kill the other 24 creatures in the run.

''>inc 415''
You trace a simple rune while intoning the mystical phrase for Elemental Strike...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a muscular tattooed champion.
CS: +520 - TD: +431 + CvA: -13 + d100: +67 == +143
Warding failed!
You blast a muscular tattooed champion for 27 points of damage.
The elemental energy surrounding you amplifies the attack!
... 25 points of damage!
Nice blow to right hand!
The tattooed champion is knocked over by the blast!

A vortex of elemental energy suddenly strikes a muscular tattooed champion!
CS: +520 - TD: +431 + CvA: -13 + d100: +4 == +80
Warded off!
Cast Roundtime 1 Second.

''>inc 519''
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...
Your spell is ready.
Seeing an opportunity, you accelerate time and empower your spell!
You channel at a muscular tattooed champion.
CS: +559 - TD: +435 + CvA: -13 + d100: +85 == +196
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a muscular tattooed champion and she bursts into flame causing 100 points of damage!
... 40 points of damage!
Extreme heat causes a muscular tattooed champion's left leg to expand and snap. That must hurt!
... 40 points of damage!
Extreme heat causes a muscular tattooed champion's right arm to expand and snap. That must hurt!
... 15 points of damage!
Minor burns to left arm. That hurts a bit.
... 5 points of damage!
Minor burns to left leg. That hurts a bit.
The flames around a muscular tattooed champion continue to burn!
Cast Roundtime 1 Second.
Roundtime: 0 sec.

''>inc 519''
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...
Your spell is ready.
Seeing an opportunity, you accelerate time and empower your spell!
You channel at a muscular tattooed champion.
CS: +559 - TD: +435 + CvA: -13 + d100: +92 == +203
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a muscular tattooed champion and she bursts into flame causing 115 points of damage!
... 50 points of damage!
Skin and some muscle burnt off chest.
... 50 points of damage!
A large patch of flesh is seared off a muscular tattooed champion's back.
... 20 points of damage!
Burst of flames to chest toasts skin nicely.
... 5 points of damage!
Minor burns to left hand. Ouch.
The flames around a muscular tattooed champion continue to burn!
Cast Roundtime 1 Second.
Roundtime: 0 sec.

''>inc 519''
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...
Your spell is ready.
You channel at a muscular tattooed champion.
CS: +559 - TD: +435 + CvA: -13 + d100: +87 == +198
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a muscular tattooed champion and she bursts into flame causing 115 points of damage!
... 40 points of damage!
Extreme heat causes a muscular tattooed champion's left arm to expand and snap. That must hurt!
... 40 points of damage!
Extreme heat causes a muscular tattooed champion's right arm to expand and snap. That must hurt!
The champion's military pick falls to the ground.
... 20 points of damage!
Burst of flames to left arm burns skin bright red.
... 5 points of damage!
Minor burns to left leg. That hurts a bit.
The flames around a muscular tattooed champion continue to burn!
Cast Roundtime 1 Second.
Roundtime: 3 sec.

R>inc 519
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...
Your spell is ready.
You channel at a muscular tattooed champion.
CS: +559 - TD: +435 + CvA: -13 + d100: +17 == +128
Warding failed!
Small flames of yellow and orange hues begin to lick at a muscular tattooed champion. Before long, the flames grow more violent, reaching hungrily up her body. She falls to the floor and the flames engulf her. Black smoke rises in tendrils from the large blaze around a muscular tattooed champion as she burns.
With an ear-piercing cry of agony, the tattooed champion dies.
Earthen elemental energy energizes you.
Cast Roundtime 1 Second.
Roundtime: 3 sec.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1912
| author = MDEVEAU
| date = on 04/23/2016 03:02 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
Come on now, aren't you having fun? :P Obviously they want all wizard builds to be war mages for duskruin.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1914
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 04/23/2016 03:11 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>Come on now, aren't you having fun? :P Obviously they want all wizard builds to be war mages for duskruin.''

Nope, it's the opposite of fun, and certainly isn't inspiring me to keep my account open after this month finishes. Why would I, when the wizard is useless?

Meanwhile, 1115 completely decimates everything usually in a single shot even without 240.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1915
| author = MDEVEAU
| date = on 04/23/2016 04:36 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
Close your account (or all) then. It's what a number of us did as its the only recourse we have to demonstrate to management that their development strategy as currently implemented for capped wizards (or in this case, special events) is not ideal. The only reason why Simu has been able to continue to develop in this manner is because people are addicted to their product and the idea of going without results in a visceral response. The consumer really is to blame because they, like the crack addict, will do anything to get their fix.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1916
| author = BLACKKOBOLD2
| date = on 04/24/2016 12:51 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
It's not my wish to see this game fail, but at this point I think what's likely to make it fail in the long run is development like this. So, if you're feeling fed up enough, I wouldn't dissuade you from making that choice. You're clearly someone who pumps thousands of dollars into Simutronics' coffers between subscription fees and events like Duskruin. Even that by itself might not be enough to register with them, but perhaps there's a chance that they'll begin to recognize that we have legitimate concerns that need to be addressed.

~Taverkin
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1917
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 04/24/2016 06:53 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>but perhaps there's a chance that they'll begin to recognize that we have legitimate concerns that need to be addressed.''

Sometimes I feel like getting the government to realize they have a spending problem would be an easier task.

~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs:
http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1918
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 04/26/2016 09:41 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
RobertTwo things to notice:1) Initial RT is not being applied.2) Even though the critter is ignoring the spell, it is still sputtering out after 1 round in the damp area (100% of the time as near as I can tell). I don't think the critter should get this benefit if they aren't going to roll.Fresh combatant, initial cast of the spell, expecting 10s RT to be applied.The flames surrounding a triton combatant flare up violently...Less than 5s have gone by since I cast the spell and he's swinging at me already! Per your earlier post there should be 10s of RT applied at the initial cast.

The fire DoT only flares every 10 seconds. Your log shows that you cast 519, then the fire DoT flares, and finally the creature attacks. Unfortunately, there's no real way to show time elapsed in the log (unless you're continuously applying roundtime to yourself), but it seems to me that 10 seconds did elapse, which is why the creature did not attack sooner. Is it possible that you lagged out for a few seconds? Have you been able to reproduce that issue since then?

The spell always ends exactly after 1 round when in water - it always has. Creatures have a 25% chance to not roll around (and thus receive no roundtime for that round). These two are unrelated events. That's also why you don't see the combatant try to roll around in the above log.

GameMaster Estild
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1919
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 04/26/2016 06:13 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>> The fire DoT only flares every 10 seconds. Your log shows that you cast 519, then the fire DoT flares, and finally the creature attacks. Unfortunately, there's no real way to show time elapsed in the log (unless you're continuously applying roundtime to yourself), but it seems to me that 10 seconds did elapse, which is why the creature did not attack sooner. Is it possible that you lagged out for a few seconds?''

I generally don't have any lag and would discount any testing if there was any noticeable lag at the time. I use my attacks to capture RT given I pretty much do them as soon as RT is up (I was being generous in saying that up to 5 seconds had passed in my log example.

''>> Have you been able to reproduce that issue since then?''

Honestly I've started playing other characters and other games vs. hunting with Faulkil due to the current challenges with this spell (I was sort of hoping the spell would get fixed based on the information already shared so just found other things to to in the meantime).

I'll make it a point to go in and do some additional testing either later in the week or this coming weekend latest and try to capture at least three new examples. Maybe I'll see if I can create some sort of Ruby Script that echoes time with seconds every 10 seconds or so or that I can call with each cast to show the current time with seconds.

''>> The spell always ends exactly after 1 round when in water - it always has. Creatures have a 25% chance to not roll around (and thus receive no roundtime for that round). These two are unrelated events. That's also why you don't see the combatant try to roll around in the above log.''

On this... I wasn't arguing that the spell didn't work this way in the past so much as, given some of the recent adjustments made and this being the disabler version, maybe they should have to actually roll to get the 100% chance for the spell to end in the current version.


One of the characters I've been playing more of recently is my cleric. While it lacks the same flash as immolation, Bind is a great example of a reliable warding-based disabler spell. You know if you were successful or not in casting it, the spell stops opponent casting and maneuvers while it is active, you have a pretty decent idea of how long the spell effect will last based on your warding margin, and you get a clear indication of when the spell effect expires.

Immolation is lacking in that you don't know if you were successful (you know you successfully cast the spell but it may not matter at all), it doesn't reliably stop manuevers or casting, and you don't know how long it will last. You get the 'benefit' of some damage up front and there is still some kill chance so I guess you can call it a trade-off but I'm definitely finding I like bind with my cleric much more than I like Immolation and I don't see anything else that even comes close in our current spell selection. Also, bind is 4 less mana to cast so I would argue the additional 4 mana covers at least the damage component for Immolation.

Anyway... getting off track and a little frustrated so I'll stop while we're ahead. Look for my combat example / updated bug post by this weekend at the latest.


-- Robert

Raggler squeakily says, "Muffins are also known to be one of the most healthiest foods in the world."

Raggler squeakily says, "It's a fact."
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 192
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 08/29/2015 02:38 PM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!
}}
ERYKK2Reactive vibe flares for a class that makes every attempt to not be hit because it's pretty much guaranteed death?I'm really starting to question who is designing these spells, and if they know anything about Wizards at all. They clearly have no idea what Wizards need, or how they play, or what efforts they take to stay alive, like having a DS high enough to not be hit.

I'm really starting to question if you ever played GemStone. No character makes an attempt to get hit, but every character does get hit eventually. When said scenario is true, reactive flares can trigger, and I'd rather have them than not have them, as they can disable the attacker.

And as noted many times, no spell by itself will generally make training a lore worth it. Would I train 100 ranks of EL:E for an 8% chance of reactive flares? No. But I would consider 100 EL:E ranks for 8% chance to negate all AS/DS attacks from 414, reduced haste cooldown, +AS from 509, +DF for 510, extra features from 514, extra charges and higher EBP penalty on 909, more targets for 917, able to enchant vibration flaring weapons, and other unreleased bonuses from 411, 412, 430, 507, 508, 902, 904, 905, 914.

GameMaster Estild
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1920
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 04/26/2016 06:21 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
Disregard my comparison to bind. I confused it with prayer of holding which I've also been using and works as I was describing but only against undead. Both spells have been working great for my cleric but that's a different story...

-- Robert

Raggler squeakily says, "Muffins are also known to be one of the most healthiest foods in the world."

Raggler squeakily says, "It's a fact."
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1922
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 04/27/2016 05:20 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
I doubt I'll get an answer due to the new "not telling you anything until it's done because I might get hit by a bus tomorrow" thing with dev, but is Immolate going to get any love? Or has staff decided that the spell is fine as is and needs no further development? Don't care about time frames or whatever. I just want to know if staff is done with this spell or if there is/will be something in the works for it to make it stop being garbage.

Thanks.

~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs:
http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1923
| author = BLACKKOBOLD2
| date = on 04/27/2016 12:58 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
Oh, I wouldn't be surprised to see a few tweaks moving forward. Speaking of which, since it will likely be on the order of years before we see new post-cap hunting, it might be a nice touch to consider removing/reducing immunity to this spell, in particular the disabling version, so that capped hunters aren't forced to rely on other spells that we don't yet have or move to areas that don't yet exist as a reasonable alternative. The impact on pre-cap hunters should be negligible in either case, as 19 mana for a disabler is prohibitively expensive until well into the post-cap.

If you were hoping to regain some of that former glory, I would just forget about it. I expect this to loosely follow the sorcery track: Send in the wrecking ball, and then gradually build the class back up over a matter of years. Although I certainly hope the turnaround time for wizards is drastically improved, as I don't wish to die of old age before this "plan" is realized. The good news is that if they do follow that model, by 2030 wizards should be the envy of the GS world and lores will provide meaningful choices at last!

~Taverkin
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1924
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 04/27/2016 01:01 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''> The good news is that if they do follow that model, by 2030 wizards should be the envy of the GS world and lores will provide meaningful choices at last!''

Always find the silver lining.

~ Konacon
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1925
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 04/27/2016 02:27 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
''>since it will likely be on the order of years before we see new post-cap hunting''

Isn't Sea of Fire coming out this year?

~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs:
http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1926
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 04/27/2016 03:11 PM PDT
| subject = 515 proc still subject to 1 second CT
}}
This makes the 0 second RT useless since it's taking the maximum of 0 or 1 seconds:

''>inc 907''
Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Major Cold...
Your spell is ready.
Seeing an opportunity, you accelerate time and empower your spell!
You channel at a scarred fire giant champion.
You hurl a freezing ball of pure cold at a scarred fire giant champion!
AS: +XXX vs DS: +108 with AvD: +17 + d100 roll: +44 = +XXX
... and hit for 123 points of damage!
Icy blast takes right arm off at the shoulder!
The champion's awl-pike falls to the ground.
A scarred fire giant champion wails in agony as the frost dances over her body!

... 30 points of damage!
A chilly blast strikes the fire giant champion in the chest, knocking her back a step.
The freezing ball of pure cold strikes a scarred fire giant champion, blossoming into a much larger sphere of frost upon impact.
... 10 points of damage!
A frosty blow to the neck. Bet that smarts!
Cast Roundtime 1 Second.
Roundtime: 0 sec.
''>inc 907''
Wait 1 sec.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1927
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 04/27/2016 03:27 PM PDT
| subject = Re: 515 proc still subject to 1 second CT
}}
DESTINY14This makes the 0 second RT useless since it's taking the maximum of 0 or 1 seconds:

No, it isn't. If the lore benefit didn't kick in and you tried to channel the spell, it would have took you 3 seconds of roundtime.

GameMaster Estild
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1928
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 04/27/2016 03:32 PM PDT
| subject = Re: 515 proc still subject to 1 second CT
}}
''>No, it isn't. If the lore benefit didn't kick in and you tried to channel the spell, it would have took you 3 seconds of roundtime.''

Yes, but why does it say 0 then if it's not really 0 in total? That seems misleading.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1929
| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 04/27/2016 03:36 PM PDT
| subject = Re: 515 proc still subject to 1 second CT
}}
Cast Roundtime 1 Second.
{{saved post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 193
| author = GS4-CYRAEX
| date = on 08/29/2015 02:42 PM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!
}}
TANDL:Do the reactive flares have the same strength as what is typically found in flaring armors?

Yes, the strength is the same as what you would find on a set of armor that has vibe flares.

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