2025-08-24 - A discussion on Honor with Sir Cryheart (log)

This log is from the discussion hosted by Sir Cryheart, held at the Gryphon Holding in the summer of 2025, celebrating the 30th anniversary of the Order of the Silver Gryphon. It has been edited to focus on the performance and for clarity.

Log

 [Gryphon Holding, Great Hall]
A light draft stirs the banners draped overhead, each measure of silk representing a knight of the Order.  Dominating the room is a massive oak table with a dozen tall chairs around it.  Three smaller tables are set up in an alcove off the eastern wall for more private gatherings.  Elaborate figurines of former members line the mantel of a huge fireplace set at the far end of the room.  Flanking the hearth, floor-to-ceiling shelves hold a wide selection of reading material and ancient tomes.  You also see a rough oak table with some stuff on it, a bat-eared dappled cream kitten, the Oxhammer disk, the translucent quartz Helnora disk veined in burnt umber, the Regwen disk, the Balantine disk, the Sirona disk, the Geijon disk, a white monir table burned with a keep-overlooked seaside cityscape with some stuff on it, a live-edge thanot table set on spiraled rakka horn legs with some stuff on it, a newel staircase and a wooden ladder.
Also here: Great Lady Aeryi, Svenka, Brother-in-arms Oxhammer, Sirona, Great Lord Muiritz who is sitting, Willowthorns, Dame Evia, Sir Geijon, Magister Raelee, Helnora, Lord Everall, Great Lord Dethnyain, Rivienne, Hospitaller Yukito who is sitting, Perigourd, Lord Khazaann, Sister-at-arms Regwen, Puptilian, Sir Balantine, Lady Raindove, Sir Cryheart, Arena Hero Missoni, Sister-in-Arms Roelaren who is sitting, Sister-in-arms Mourdeyan
Obvious exits: none

Argent light blooms from your sable plate armor's core as you cross your forearm over your chest and execute a short bow.

Khazaann faces a diamond-pomelled vultite greatsword inlaid with silver griffins on the blade on a carved oak mantel and renders a sharp salute with his dwarven stout.

You say, "Alright friends, guests, Hospitallers and Magisters, I think we can begin."

You clearly state, "Good evening, once again, everyone, and thank you for joining us tonight."

You continue, "Our thirtieth anniversary celebration continues. Some of you who have been attending our monthly events may have realized that we are running with a chivalric theme for every event."

You add, "Tonight, we are fortunate to have Sir Cryheart with us to lead a discussion on Honor."

You nod appreciatively at Cryheart.
 
You say, "This is a topic that Sir Cryheart has been discussing since  5106. And I imagine well before that as well."

You say, "You can find a copy of the talk he held with Sir Shirkon in our library."

Cryheart says, "A long time."
Cryheart nods to you.
 
You say, "From the writings of Sir Pyrrhon, the talismans of Kai, or our eastern Vaalorian comrades, there are many different perspectives on honor. We have covered a wide range of them in our prior discussions."

You say, "Tonight we bring things back closer to home, or, well the Holding. So please, let us give our attention to Sir Cryheart."

Cryheart nods to you.

You face Cryheart and smartly bring your right fist up to your chest.  Holding it there, you bow deeply.
You say, "Sir, the floor is yours."

Cryheart coughs.
 
Cryheart says, "Ahem."

Cryheart recites:
    "We thank ye all for coming for this discussion regarding honor. Honor is part of a chivalric code we adhere  regarding our oath."

Cryheart recites:
    "The code of chivalry is a moral and ethical framework that guides the behavior of Order of the Silver Gryphon, emphasizing virtues such as courage, loyalty, honor, and humility."

Cryheart says, "There are more."

Cryheart recites:
    "This code is integral to the identity of our membership and is based on the ideals of our Order and that of Sir Pyrrhon Von Kammersteyl leader of the Order of the Golvern Star. He also emphasized prowess, piety and fealty."

Cryheart recites:
    "This code of chivalry emphasizes the importance of honor and loyalty to serve and protect those whose cause is just. So what would you do if your liege or mayor ordered you to kill a camp of kobolds outside your city due to suspected robbery and murder. To give you time to mull over that scenario wait until the end of this discussion."

Cryheart asks, "Got it?"
 
Cryheart says, "A scenario we will go over in a bit."

Cryheart recites:
    "The code of chivalry is a moral and ethical code that guides the behavior of our membership for the oath we take.  Outside on the Holding wall we have a plaque that reads: To protect those who cannot protect themselves. To aid those who are in need, if their cause is just. To serve with honor, by example and by deed."

Cryheart recites:
    "So, now let us focus on honor which is based on personal, social and cultural beliefs."

Cryheart recites:
    "You have heard about honoring your father and mother, brethren in arms and honor among thieves."

Cryheart recites:
    "Honor is a defining virtue for our members and squires. We are expected to be truthful, just, and compassionate. The honor of our Order is the most valued possession, and we go to great lengths to defend it, even if it means risking our lives."

Cryheart recites:
    "A variety of tomes have defined honor as a good name or public esteem, reputation, a showing of usually merited respect, or recognition."

Cryheart recites:
    "Beyond simply following rules, honor involves the courage to act rightly, even when faced with personal sacrifices. It's the practice of upholding one's highest values, earning respect through consistent, value-driven actions. Such practices are essential for developing trustworthiness and leadership, crucial for ethical societies."

Gazing into the flames, your mind wanders.  You relive old adventures and battles and plan greater triumphs yet to be.  It is pleasant to sit here and dream by the fire.  Perhaps you will conquer the world tomorrow, or another day.  There is always a tomorrow.  But for now, the fire lulls you warmly.

Cryheart recites:
    "Beyond simply following rules, honor involves the courage to act rightly, even when faced with personal sacrifices. It's the practice of upholding one's highest values, earning respect through consistent, value-driven actions. Such practices are essential for developing trustworthiness and leadership, crucial for ethical societies."

Cryheart recites:
    "Regarding the previous kobold scenario, how would you proceed? So what do you consider to be honor? Can you provide some examples?"

Cryheart says, "Let me give ye more time."

Speaking to Cryheart, Willowthorns asks, "These are Kobolds we're talking about?"

Cryheart says, "Let me  give ye a scenario first."
 
Cryheart says, "Long time ago, we had invaders to the landing."
 
Willowthorns says, "I'm going to trust a mayor over a kobold...."

Cryheart says, "A group of us went to an area we thought where the enemy was."
  
Cryheart says, "As we entered folks began attacking them, not realizing at the moment it had children of the kobolds in it."

Cryheart says, "Within a few minutes, many had been slaughtered."

Everall sighs.
Puptilian says, "Stelitto's tribe."
Puptilian fidgets.

Cryheart says, "So..again I ask..what would be the best way to handle that situation."

Cryheart says, "Aye..poor Stiletto was a friend to the Landing."

Cryheart says, "And I felt ashamed so many of the younguns had been slaughtered."

Willowthorns says, "But..these are kobolds..."
Willowthorns says, "So confusing."
 
Cryheart says, "Exactly."

Cryheart coughs.
 
Sirona quietly says, "Well, there was little information at that point. It was only 'suspected' ...so more investigation was needed....certainly not slaughtering them all."

Cryheart asks, "Was the cause of the mayor just?"

Sirona quietly says, "No."

Speaking to Willowthorns, Puptilian says, "Not all Kobolds are evil.  Not all humans are good.  Its their actions that show their worth and a kobold helped this town a lot."

Cryheart says, "Consider we had no cause given."

Speaking to Cryheart, Missoni says, "Kobolds or not, it hardly seems honorable to go to a village and slaughter the denizens wholesale."

Kothos says, "Even if they are our enemies, there are still moral considerations."

Kothos says, "Kobolds may be pests, but even pests have some rights."

(Yukito jerks a thumb toward Puptilian and nods in agreement.)
 
Cryheart asks, "Kobolds hae a different culture, but does that make them all evil?"

Speaking to Willowthorns, Puptilian says, "Some Mayors even helped the kobolds in the past.  Or at least one of them did before he was mayor and the kobolds helped the town in return."

Roelaren says, "They are sencient beings."

Willowthorns grunts.

Dethnyain says, "On persons crime does not indenuate the whole race."
Cryheart nods at Roelaren.
Dethnyain says, "Eer one."
Evia takes a bite of her sausage stuffing.
Willowthorns says, "I'll continue to entertain this, for now."
Cryheart nods at Willowthorns.
Balantine quietly says, "Jus nae invite 'em ta yer wedding."

Balantine winks.
Roelaren says, "And have helped us fight on more than one occasion when the Landing was under attack."

Cryheart says, "War is not always a simple case."

Speaking to Roelaren, Perigourd says, "They've also been known to attack the Landing though, so one can understand both sides of the concern."

Cryheart asks, "Is honor a simple case?"

Svenka says, "No."

Cryheart asks, "Someone give me an example of honor they have experienced?"

Speaking to Cryheart, Kothos says, "When my Mistress's temple was attacked, and the Inner Sanctum destroyed."

Willowthorns says, "That could be a dangerous question to answer."
Speaking to Cryheart, Kothos says, "You and the Landing mayor."

Kothos says, "And by you, I mean the Gryphons."
Cryheart says, "Aye."
Kothos says, "Came to liberate us, raise our dead, heal our wounded."

Kothos says, "Despite the fact that we are Lornonites, and often regarded as pests of a different variety."

Kothos says, "You still decided that we were unjustly attacked."

Cryheart says, "Aye, your cause was just."

Kothos says, "That is honor."

Cryheart says, "Our Order serves to protect anyone whose cause is just."

Kothos says, "Even when our attacker was the Prelate of Koar.  While not an authority over the Gryphons or the Landing, he would generally be more regarded than Ivasians."

Cryheart asks, "Anyone else?"

Cryheart asks, "What does honor mean to ye?"

Mourdeyan says, "Having the courage to stand, even alone, for your convictions."

Willowthorns says, "Just what I was going to say."

Dethnyain says, "Honor is looking out for and helping anyoen no mater their race or religilious following to uphold the aide to all who cannot aid themselves."

Raindove softly says, "To do the right thing even when it's not popular or easy."

Aeryi says, "Doing what is right and just, even if no one is watching."

Sirona quietly says, "Someone guided by integrity."

Puptilian sarcastically says, "I have the courage to kill every Knight because I think all knights constantly destroy the Landing.  No matter what you say or do I will stand for what I believe is right."

Puptilian asks, "Is that honor?"

Sirona quietly says, "That is hubris."

Sirona flashes a quick grin at Puptilian.

Cryheart says, "He is giving a scenario."

Cryheart says, "I can answer that."

Balantine quietly says, "When one's deed matches one's word, tis a form of honor."

Cryheart asks, "Is every knight attacking the Landing...or those from like Jantalar?"

Rivienne says, "Upholding another's dignity, even when they've wronged you, even when it would be easy."

Evia says, "It is not ones title in life that grants one honor, but ones actions and deeds."

Cryheart says, "I Hae fought knights from Jantalar, like all members of our Order."

Cryheart points at Evia.
Cryheart says, "Exactly."
Oxhammer says, "Choosing the harder right over the easier wrong."

Evia says, "Just a passing thought I had.."
Evia says, "Part of the idea of why people will sometimes use the expression "it was my honor" to do so, meaning there was an implied respect for and by others for some situation. it is an encompassing idea or value."

Cryheart says, "Honor comes from all folks if they hae it."

You casually note, "Sir Pyrrhon would say it is the sum of all of your actions, and that it can be gained, and lost, and so it must be protected."

Cryheart says, "Sum of our actions."

Evia says, "Or consider even a similar title implied situation of calling a magistrate or some such...Your Honor, as one of such rank is expected to behave a certain way."

Cryheart says, "Which means an accumluation o'time collected of your actions."

Cryheart says, "Not just one act makes ye honorable to the total."

Cryheart says, "Honor your duty, oaths and such across the spectrum."
 
Willowthorns asks, "Is it not also true that one action can make up for many bad actions?"

Dethnyain says, "This was the way 35 eons ago and still is to this day."
Cryheart says, "In then end, aye, it can."

Cryheart nods at Willowthorns.
 
Cryheart says, "But society will judge."

Puptilian says, "Choosing to help those that can't help themselves, to uphold life, uphold freedom.  To go against orders knowing your actions will get you into trouble.  To stand infront of an enemy even if you can't beat them.  To call out your friends when they are wrong and stand up to them and make them realize their error.  To stand the line without being asked."
 
Puptilian shrugs.
 
Cryheart points at Puptilian.
 
Cryheart says, "Aye."

You say, "Puptilian here is practically quoting Sir Brinn."
  
Kothos says, "Honor lets those we mean to protect know they can trust us."

Evia says, "Another example of honor encompassing many values."

Raelee takes a drink from her jasmine-scented tea.
Cryheart nods.
 
Cryheart asks, "Can ye honor an enemy?"

Cryheart says, "Respect."
 
Willowthorns says, "Always, you would be a fool not to."

Roelaren says, "Depends on what the enemy is doing and why."
Cryheart says, "Aye."
Cryheart says, "There can be many examples of what and what you cannot respect."

Raindove softly asks, "Aye.  Even an enemy can not make ye compromise your honor.  Treating an enemy honorably is an age old thing is it not?"

Roelaren nods.

Evia says, "You honor us with your respectful approach to a sitation comes to mind, such as, treat a captive or the dead a certain way, even if perhaps they were an "enemy"."
 
Puptilian says, "An enemy can have honor.  Doesn't always happen and we dont see much of it here in the Landing but does happens sometimes."

Cryheart nods at Puptilian.
Cryheart says, "Aye."

Perigourd says, "I've known some to show their own expression of it."

Roelaren says, "The way ye treat your captives reveals more about ye than ye think."

Speaking to Perigourd, Missoni agrees, "I am reminded of Tseleth."

Speaking to Missoni, Perigourd says, "Before that, too."

Speaking to Puptilian, you say, "Just so. Whether they do or not, they should be treated respectfully."

Kothos says, "The are rules, even in war."
 
Speaking to you, Puptilian says, "Agree.  I would think one's honor should never be sway but how someone else acts."
Evia says, "So much leans towards the idea of respect, it condenses down to core values held."

You nod in agreement at Puptilian.

Kothos says, "The killing of juveniles should be off-limits, unless the situation is truly dire."

Raelee looks thoughtfully at Cryheart.

Svantai says, "I can't imagine any situation that would be so dire that killing of juveniles could even be considered."
Perigourd nods grimly.


Cryheart says, "There was a time ago, that our Order was asked not to attack, Talador  I recall, frrom Earl Jovery."

Cryheart asks, "That correct?"
Cryheart glances at you.
Speaking to Svantai, Raelee suggests, "If the juveniles in question are violent and taking lives themselves."

Speaking quietly to Svantai, Kothos says, "I was thinking of Rodnay.  Not that I would recommend it or justify it, but..."

Cryheart says, "So Talador advanced on the Landing."

Speaking to Svantai, Kothos says, "It could have gone very differently."

Evia says, "To not interfere, or to not participate..something like that."

Speaking to Cryheart, Puptilian says, "I thought it was someone standing in for Earl Jovery before we found he was not giving the orders."

You say, "Dame Evia has the right of it."

Cryheart says, "But our Order held back until their catapults attacked the Landing and killed children and citizens."

Evia says, "Stand down."

Speaking to Raelee, Svantai counters, "I would say that one should consider the circumstances and attempt to disable to danger in the situation before lethal methods are employed, still."

Cryheart says, "We broke that vow we would not attack, as we thought the citizens needed protection."

Cryheart asks, "Was that honorable?"

Sirona quietly says, "Yes."
Roelaren says, "I think so."
Evia says, "And we all thought, well we are in deep doo doo now."
Evia chuckles.

Cryheart says, "Aye, we thought we had crossed the line against Earl Jovery."

Balantine quietly says, "Our vow to protect the Landing residents took precedence."

Cryheart says, "But we continued to protect the Landing after that act."

Cryheart nods.
 
Cryheart says, "We honored our oath of duty."

Evia says, "There was no chance we could do otherwise."
Balantine quietly says, "And still do."

Cryheart nods at Balantine.
Speaking to Svantai, Raelee replies, "Which then leads to the complexities of the matter - how many lives can be lost at the hands of the juveniles before employing lethal countermeasures is acceptable?"

Puptilian quietly says, "The Order losing their title still stands out to me."

Willowthorns glances between Raelee and Svantai.

Cryheart says, "As as result of our action..we lost availability to our Holding here."
Cryheart says, "For a time."

Evia says, "And yet...being stricken from the book did not sway our decision in the least bit."

Cryheart says, "But we swore an oath."

Speaking plainly to Raelee, Svantai says, "Children should not be held culpable for situations in which they are groomed to violence."
Cryheart says, "Which is honorable to us."

Cryheart says, "Swore an oath."

Cryheart says, "We will always honor our oath of duty."


Evia says, "And thus shores up the idea that title does not infer honor, at all."

Cryheart asks, "Any other examples of honor you can think of?"

 
Speaking to Svantai, Raelee says, "You speak in the context of applying justice after the fact.  I speak in the context of the battlefield where death is continuing."

Speaking to Raelee, Willowthorns says, "Nip it in the bud, so to speak."

Cryheart says, "The battlefield requires action to be immediate to defend."

 
Geijon says, "One makes th' best decision one can at the time with information at hand."

Geijon nods.
 
Cryheart says, "Aye."
 
Cryheart says, "The battlefield requires immediate action."

Speaking to Geijon, Evia says, "In otherwords, a decision made "in honor", there is always intention to consider."


Cryheart asks, "Any other questions?"


Speaking to Svantai, Raelee asks, "The question was not about resorting first to death - it was about when it is acceptable to finally resort to it.  When does one draw that line?"
Speaking to Cryheart, Raelee says, "Yes."
 
Speaking to Cryheart, Raelee asks, "What is more determinant of the honor of an action?  The intent or the outcome?"
Cryheart says, "Both."

Evia says, "And an excellent question."
Evia nods.

Cryheart says, "The intent is based on the oath, and the outcome is following that oath."

Puptilian says, "Sometimes in war, decisions are made at the moment that days or years later was decided was the wrong choice.  Its never easy to know what will happen in that type of moment.  All I can think of is that you do the best you can at the moment and if anything your honor will also show as you handle things at the moment and its effects after."
 
Speaking to Cryheart, Raelee asks, "And if the outcome is not as was intended?"


Cryheart says, "We adjust."
Cryheart smiles at Raelee.
Aeryi nods.
 
Cryheart says, "In an honorable fashion if allowed."
Puptilian says, "Part of honor is to accept you can be wrong sometimes and you take the actions to fix it."

Cryheart nods at Puptilian.
  
Perigourd says, "Some failures cannot be rectified though."

Evia says, "Then your actions to follow must align with your moral decisions and one must live with the consequence of an action, but within the bounds of ones honor."
 
Evia says, "One can say....I..or we...were wrong."
Cryheart says, "War is not so well defined, aye."

Speaking to himself, Everall says, "So honor is not measured by the victories won, but by the burdens bore for others in keeping one's oath..."

Balantine quietly says, "Grace comes with a healthy dose of humility and penance."

Cryheart asks, "Done Magister?"
 
Speaking to Yukito, Svantai says, "Well... spok--- written."
Speaking to Cryheart, Raelee says, "Not truly."
Speaking to Cryheart, Raelee says, "... but I will cease here."

Cryheart asks, "Aye?"
Rivienne says, "By all means, continue, please dont stop on account of me."
Rivienne nods encouragingly at Raelee.

Yukito picks up a weathered vellum page.
 
Perigourd nods slowly at Raelee.
Cryheart asks, "Want to continue?"
 
Speaking to Cryheart, Raelee says, "I will, then."
 
Speaking to Cryheart, Raelee asks, "If an action is taken with ill-intent, but saves more lives than it ends... is compared with an action made with good intent, but ends more lives than it saves.  Is either honorable?"

Cryheart says, "Also depends on whether ye think the cause is just or nae."
 
Sirona quietly says, "You cannot know the outcome."
 
Speaking quietly to Raelee, Kothos says, "It would also depend on who bears the consequence."

Rivienne asks, "How do we truly know someone's intention?"
Cryheart says, "If my liege says to invade Hendor, I would ask why."
 
Cryheart says, "If I thought it was nae honorable or just, I would balk."
 
Cryheart says, "And war is war."
 
Cryheart says, "Casualties alwys result from wars."

Cryheart says, "The only way to stop casualties is to seek peace."
Willowthorns says, "I think we are discovering just how much honor is based upon societies and their belief systems."

Yukito shrugs at Willowthorns.
Khazaann concentrates deeply for a moment.
Cryheart nods at Willowthorns.
  
Cryheart says, "The defintion of honor can vary."
 
Willowthorns says, "Vastly."
Mourdeyan says, "As it is situational also."

Cryheart says, "Aye."
 
Cryheart asks, "Did I somewhat answer your question, Magister?"
Speaking to Cryheart, Raelee says, "For now."
          
Cryheart says, "Regardless of one's intent..casualties still occur."
Speaking to Cryheart, Raelee says, "It is the opening of a debate more than a simple question.  I do recognize time this evening is... limited."

Cryheart nods at Raelee.
Cryheart says, "We can continue at a later time then."
  
Evia says, "Always wonderful discussion, and tantalizing food for thought."
 
Speaking to Rivienne, Kothos asks, "Did you get a chance to ask your question?"
 
Rivienne says, "I was simply curious, especially considering your last statement about the changeable definition of honor, if anyone had been expelled from your order for a lack of it? I certainly don't want to hear any names or stories."


Speaking softly to Cryheart, Raindove says, "Ye never cease to amaze me with the way you ..... invoke thought."

Speaking to Rivienne, you say, "Yes."
Speaking to Rivienne, Kothos says, "Nevermind.  And that's a good one."
 
Cryheart says, "Thank ye."
Cryheart says, "I shall nae mention names."

Rivienne says, "Of course."
 
Cryheart says, "But we did hae one long time ago, who was exiled unfortunately from our Order."
Cryheart says, "Sadly."
 
Cryheart says, "And that remains within our Order."
Balantine quietly says, "Important lessons, but painful memories."
 
You say, "While there is nuance in many situations, there are also actions that are dishonorable."

Cryheart says, "Yep."  
Cryheart recites:
    "Let us honor our comrades and the fallen who have passed on to the spirit realm. Thank ye!"

You say, "And while one's honor is their own to guard and protect with good action, when you belong to the Order, and have taken oaths, there are more defined expectations."

Cryheart says, "And thank ye for attending if ye are done."
  
You say, "Thank you Sir Cryheart for leading yet another fine discussion on honor."
Cryheart bows.