Protectorate/saved posts
Topic: Cross Into Shadows
Message #: 91
Author: GS4-LYDIL
Date: 01/08/2014 06:51 PM EST
Subject: Re: Earl Jovery Addresses Inquisition
>This is totally OOC question on this:
>Has the Landing always been officially a part of the human empire?
The Landing is not officially part of the Turamzyrrian Empire. That applies both now and in the past, though Baron Hochstib might argue otherwise if he were still alive to do so. The confusion over this likely stems from the term Turamzyrrian Protectorate. This is the term the Empire uses for Wehnimer's Landing for several reasons. The first reason is that the Empire views the Landing as being its sphere of influence. The second is there is the long standing relationship with the town, which dates back to the alliance formed with the Barony of Vornavis during the war with Hochstib. And during the final months of that conflict both Vornavis and North Hendor did render aid and troops to the Landing, helping to free it from Hochstib's illegal occupation of the town, and fighting alongside the people of the Landing to bring down the mad baron. So that forms the basis for the term. With those reasons in mind, it can be codified as the Empire viewing the Landing as a protectorate, which then secures its interests and sphere of influence to any that might move against the Empire. This stance and term also saves the Empire the trouble that would come from actually annexing the Landing and making it part of the Empire.
The other thing to keep in mind is that it was a ranking official of the Empire who used the term "Turamzyrrian Protectorate of Wehnimer's Landing" and not someone from the Landing. Had it been an official of Wehnimer's Landing making a statement, I believe you would get a different viewpoint on the matter.
>I know that River's Rest is in the Empire and Solhaven while being a 'free port' is also in the empire.
And just for further clarification. River's Rest is a town in the County of Torre, located northwest of the Imperial capital. Solhaven is a city in the Barony of Vornavis, located in the northern reaches of the Empire. Solhaven does have the designation as a Free Port, which gives is some autonomy (though that has changed quite significantly than in the past) it mainly exists to protected the economic interested of the port, and the benefits it provides to the Empire.
-Lydil
Topic: Cross Into Shadows
Message #: 5690
Author: GS4-SCRIBES
Date: 01/14/2015 12:38 PM EST
Subject: Re: What is a "Protectorate?"
Truth be told, it's something that has organically developed over the last ten years or more based on the constant intervention of Imperial troops (generally in the form of provincial troops, i.e., Hendorans, Vornavians, etc). Kenstrom definitely should correct me, but from our perspective the Empire has had to deal with one major 'the fate of the world is on precipice' so often originating or focused on the Landing, that it's demonstrated a couple things to the Empire from a tactical stand point.
1) Serious crap happens in the Landing and it seems to very often flow downhill to affect the Empire.
2) Often times as a result, the Empire has provided troops to help protect the Landing as an extension of protecting itself.
3) Protecting the Landing is key to protecting the northern realm of the Empire.
That said, I'll also quote this wonderful bit from one of our earliest published history docs:
<<In the two years since her rise to power, Mynal'lyanna's imperial troops have doubled in numbers. Used by former emperors to garrison the city and as shipboard troops to ensure the safety of coastal commerce, the empress has instead used her troops to isolate baronies which have failed to fulfill their imperial obligations.
<<All of this has had an effect on even a distant frontier town like Wehnimer's Landing. Neighboring barons who have viewed the Landing as too distant and paltry to trifle with in the past are now reassessing the situation. Wehnimer's is a port town, and given the empress' vow to expand the empire across oceans, any port has a new potential for trade and a possible influx of imperial silver as new ships are commissioned. Also, with the empress' increase in troops has come an increase in the baronial taxes to support them, and every baron is now looking for any undeveloped source of income which might lie close to hand. Even if that source does not currently lie within his barony.
The Landing and its potential has been on Turamzzyrian minds for nearly twenty years. The events that have happened in the last several have helped push the Empire to seriously consider its importance to the Empire, be it militarily or economically.
In short, the Landing as a protectorate declared by the Empire is relatively new. The Landing as the focus of growing interest to the human empire? Been happening for nearly twenty years! :D
There is no treaty. This is by fiat.
That help?
GM Scribes
Topic: Cross Into Shadows
Message #: 5692
Author: GS4-KENSTROM
Date: 01/14/2015 01:10 PM EST
Subject: Re: What is a "Protectorate?"
>>And I would suppose recent events don't really help - IE, REALLY bad things happening (Kestrel assassination, for example) tying back to the Landing.
Precisely. So far, in recent times:
- Murder of an imperial inquisitor (yes, proven to have been done by the urnon golem, but happened in the area nonetheless)
- Councilman using the town/port to smuggle weapons to the krolvin to fight the Empire
- Sanctuary for many of the people rumored to be involved in the assassination of Earl Kestrel
- The site of the mysterious death of Grand Magister Tayeros
- Home to Walkar who used a shapeshifter to try to secretly control Talador, and then turned into an abomination that marched on imperial territories
- Housed/houses individuals said to have taken blood oaths to the imperial enemy Elithain Cross and conduct a ritual to summon demonic chimera to lay waste to portions of the Empire
- HQ of the criminal organization known as the Brotherhood of Rooks who have killed/wounded Vornanvian soldiers, damaged imperial ships, aided in arming krolvin, led by Drangell the wanted criminal, were responsible for the murder of a Taladorian noble's daughter, and robbed from the banks/shops of Solhaven.
- Still housing a forest of evil black trees
- Positoned near Melgorehn's Reach which has now drawn the attention of many curious people
I'm sure I'm missing some things, hehe. Now, that list looks bad, but contrast it with the good as well. Heroes from the town, helping to save the world, the empire, the landing, etc. Defenders and support for Idolone, Mestanir, Demonwall, etc. So not just the "bad" is getting attention, but it's definitely putting a lot of spotlight on the Landing, so it's only logical there'd be some kind of trusted eyes/ears in and on the location in the after math of such chaos and tragedy.
This should be fun.
-GM Kenstrom-
Waylayer of Wehnimer's Landing
Human Guru
Giantmen Guru
Topic: Cross Into Shadows
Message #: 5710
Author: GS4-MARSTREFORN
Date: 01/14/2015 03:25 PM EST
Subject: Re: What is a "Protectorate?"
>Imperial regulation?
The Empire does regulate what is allowed to be imported/exported, which is why River's Rest is know for its smuggling.
The Landing, not being under such law, doesn't have to worry about this for the most part. This was, however, realized when The Empire disallowed trade between itself and The Landing, and Councilman Juramis made efforts to open trade between other "free" towns such as Icemule Trace.
There is currently a very viable and active trade agreement between Icemule and Wehnimer's. The Landing provides much needed herbs to Icemule, and Icemule provides much needed iron ore to make steel for weapons/armor/tools/etc.
Granted, the path between Icemule and Wehnimer's is plagued with bandits from at least two "organized" factions, as well as the usual rag-tag groups that the Adventurer's Guild sends you off to deal with. But THAT is a different story.
-Marstreforn-
Icemule Trace Guru
Halfling Guru
Topic: Cross Into Shadows
Message #: 5711
Author: GS4-KENSTROM
Date: 01/14/2015 03:25 PM EST
Subject: Re: What is a "Protectorate?"
>>It makes me happy that the same GMs who can play characters my sorceress genuinely likes and respects can also play people she just wants to shred on sight. I love well-played jerks!
I wonder what that says about my mental stability, haha.
>>I'm pretty sure we aren't really supposed to like Thadston; he's even ticking off fellow Imperial citizens with his land-grab in Talador,
More will no doubt come out about this, but since nobles and lords of Hendor are essentially running Talador for the time being, their kick back is some money, land, taxes, etc. Thad's no different, except, he doesn't get to really enjoy his land yet in Talador, since he's playing with those troublemakers in Landing, hehe.
And hey! Who said Thad wasn't to be liked? Put yourself in this guy's shoes! He's far from his home, far from his new land, has to build a new home from the ground up, and the citizens of Landing's aren't likely to be super friendly all of the time, the tension is thick, and this is just the beginning!
Sir Thadston. Brave Knight, New World. Coming this Spring to ABC.
-GM Kenstrom-
Waylayer of Wehnimer's Landing
Human Guru
Giantmen Guru
Topic: Cross Into Shadows
Message #: 5756
Author: GS4-KENSTROM
Date: 01/15/2015 12:01 PM EST
Subject: Re: What is a "Protectorate?"
>>I still do not think that I understand what a "protectorate" is. I DO understand why the Empire takes interest in the Landing (I'll address in a moment).
Below is a good post by Earl Jovery back in 2011, which is I believe one of the first mentions of "protectorate". The Earl was pissed that Barnon Slim, the corrupt interim mayor, banished the Silver Gryphons from town (claimed they were helping the framed murderer Walkar and helped him escape jail) and then he also had town guards lock up the Holding. This was a direct defiance of the Earl's previous establishment and recognition of the Order of the Silver Gryphon. So he said, fix this, or we'll come in and fix you.
Four years later, the Earl has now dispatched some men to come help fix things up. He dispatched a LOT more to Talador, given the fact he removed their noble class, replaced them with Hendorans, and even took land and titles and taxes and gave them to the Hendorans who are now in Talador helping out.
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Towns/Wehnimer's%20Landing/view/1854
As GM Scribes said, there's no contract established. As time has gone on, and more involvement from imperial presence/forces have been involved, the Landing has become a protectorate in the eyes of the Empire. Whether Landing agees or not, based on the history, it really does break down to that. A protectorate, for all intents and purposes, is basically saying Landing is under the sphere of influence of the Empire, but it does not have the same imperial laws and jurisdiction. Whenever danger has come to Landing, the Empire has more often than not, extended their aid. Vornavian soldiers, Mestaniri knights, Hendorans, etc. When Hochstib tried to take over, when Grishom tried to bleed the town, even some with the Lich King, the krolvin, and Cross and the Shadows.
The Landing operates freely because the Empire allows it, as simple as I can make it. There are benefits to this: the people are free, and essentially happy, and trade is open. I am sure more than a few nobles/rulers use the Landing as a means to deal in goods or services they might not easily do so within their own borders. The Landing is a good hub for many things, and requires little to no imperial resources up until now. So given so many problems in Landing recently, fairly assigned to the town or not, it could make Empire weak, or look weak, if they didn't take some kind of precaution, even if temporary, to help better assess or control the area.
If the Empire truly felt the town needed taken over, it'd happen. It'd be bloody no doubt, but it'd happen due to sheer number alone. (unless the Faendryl and Nalfein stepped in and the Fourth Elven War was waged with Landing as the backdrop, haha). What will happen in the future? No idea, I'm kind of winging it, in for the ride along with you guys.
>>I think I understand the authority that Jovery took with the Silver Gryphons - it sounded like a demotion to me.
Kind of, yes, but a demotion in the eyes of the Empire. Clearly the Landing folks feel no differently. As Geijon said in a post earlier, there's some sticky situations within the Gryphons, because the Order itself consists of Knights and non-Knights, and the Knights are all oathed to Malwind. Even those originally oathed to Jovery, had it moved to Malwind. (which in truth, Malwind answers to Jovery, so it's all a straight line up.) Well, because of the Talador war, the Gryphon Knights are now directly answering to Earl Jovery, through Sir Thadston. But those are the Knights, not the Order specifically. So you have an organization ( the Gryphons ) who don't technically answer to an imperial, BUT the Order's leader, Sir Cryheart, and those Knighted within the Order (some members and officers) also do. Fun times!
>>I do think it boils down to what are citizen rights within this thing called a "protectorate"?
Simply put, Wehnimer's Citizens = Wehnimer's Laws. Imperial Citizens = Imperial Laws. Which is what causes half of the problem, because the Landing is often seen as a sanctuary, which is part of its appeal to its citizens.
-GM Kenstrom-
Waylayer of Wehnimer's Landing
Human Guru
Giantmen Guru
Topic: Cross Into Shadows
Message #: 5757
Author: GS4-KENSTROM
Date: 01/15/2015 01:00 PM EST
Subject: Re: What is a "Protectorate?"
>>I think we're kind of expected to feel some tension, aren't we?
Yes.
There's too many unknowns right now, even for myself, hah. Although I've got some ideas...
The reason I like this issue, and couldn't wait to roll it out in the "After Shadows" phase, is it essentially makes everyone right. Which means, to someone else, everyone is wrong. Cryheart is right to speak out and publically declare he and the Gryphons will not support or tolerate rebellion. Radeek is right to get stirred up and be paranoid about an imperial presence because of his people's history, the Empire's history, and even more recently, imperial NPC's during Cross into Shadows. Puptilian is right to wish to keep alert, try for peace, and cross the line if they do first. It's a perfect storm.
You also need to consider all of the perspectives and angles at play. Geijon brought up a good point. Did the Earl do this to help protect the Landing, even though it looks like a time out, go stand in the corner? Is he saving his own face, when the Gryphons and Talador refused to listen? Earl Jovery has always been a fair man in the past, proven time and again. Has it changed? Has the horrors of the Shadow War changed him? Does any of his matter, if Sir Thadston has his own agenda? What if the Earl is a just man, but Sir Thadston is not? What if the Earl is driven mad, and Sir Thadston is righteous? What if it isn't the Earl or Knight at all? What if it's members within the Hendoran outpost, the staff, the soldiers, a squire? What is their agenda? Simple? Or is there more to it?
Obviously, it's too soon to tell, either way on anyone involved. Which is why I'm as happy as a fat kid in a cake store right now. Have fun! I know I will. (also, I'm not going to be in-game much for the next week and a half, so feel free to catch up on some sleep right along with me.)
-GM Kenstrom-
Waylayer of Wehnimer's Landing
Human Guru
Giantmen Guru