User:DOUG/Sandbox Archive Test: Difference between revisions

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m (And again - a lot of compute cycle exercise!)
m (And another 'stress' test)
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Not to mention wizards have to single in PF for 2 PTPs per rank more than warriors can double in it, that's another 1 or 2 spell ranks right there.
Not to mention wizards have to single in PF for 2 PTPs per rank more than warriors can double in it, that's another 1 or 2 spell ranks right there.
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 785
| author = TGO01
| date = on 09/13/2015 12:13 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!
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''>Please, can we keep this discussion even halfway realistic? Talking about warriors with 50 ranks spells is ludicrous!''

As realistic as a wizard having 101 ranks of CM training just for the defense purposes of having CMAN training?
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{{saved-post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = DOUG
| date = on 09/13/2015 12:52 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!
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''>>As realistic as a wizard having 101 ranks of CM training just for the defense purposes of having CMAN training?''

Well, kinda - its a post cap discussion, for sure. But probably not quite as far out a post cap discussion as 50 spells for a warrior.

Still - I'm getting a bit confused now. Really, honestly. We are discussing exactly what?

- Our displeasure with a recent spell change? (Everything that follows is an attempt to justify our displeasure.)
- Our suggestion for a weakness that exists that needs addressing? (Everything that follows is an attempt to justify our reasoning.)
- Something else I'm not catching? (Everything that follows is sure to confuse Doug even more until this is understood.)

All of this particular discussion is under a thread entitled 508 Updated. I went back and scanned the update message from Konacon. In summary, 25 ranks EL:E unlocks a base 5% chance to boost eTD by 20. By definition of the systems' rules, that should be 20 eTD, 10 sTD and 15 hTD. I suppose we should ask if this only applies to eTD, but if it does, I'll be a bit surprised, honestly. And if it does only apply to eTD, I think we can probably move this forward at this point in time with a simple suggestion, rather than challenging game-balance formulaic tables and charts. (Damn! I want charts!!)

In keeping with general lore statements, the GM team has slightly enhanced (actually a 20 adder isn't 'slight', what makes it slight is the lower percentage chance) spell capability through a specific lore.

Key point - the wizard isn't worse off by this change. Even more key point - the wizard isn't worse off by this change if the wizard doesn't learn EL:E ranks to get this benefit. Another key point (potentially) - the wizard's weakest condition of spiritual target defense gets a slight boost, if the standard rules are followed.

So, I admit to being a bit confused as to why we're now pulling out all the stops in comparing sTD for warriors. And yes, I contributed. That just shows what maffs does to my brain! More Macallan's please!

Which is it? Are wizards everywhere suddenly wilting under a withering fire of spiritual spells cast by nasties because of this change? Or are we suggesting that while the hood's up, it might be time to do a bit more for wizards to offset this weakness they're supposed to have? In either case, what does warrior sTD have to do with it (beyond being better informed, and perhaps considering a warrior for the Rift, instead of a wizard?)

I actually thought of a third potential cause for what I'll call 'consternation' at this point - not meaning offense, just trying to come to grips with the current agitating mindsets I see displayed. Perhaps the 'consternation' is caught up in the difficulties these types of changes introduce to 'min/max' game play? I mean, how exactly does the 'efficient wizard' account for a 5% chance of an additional 20 eTD? It's a pickle, no doubt about it.

Doug
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = GS4-AULIS
| date = on 09/13/2015 01:34 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!
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''>>So? My wizard had to invest in 101 CM ranks just to have a chance at defending himself against CM attacks. That's 2828 PTPs worth of training just to get those CM ranks. Keep in mind my wizard gets literally no benefit from CM training other than defense against CMANs.''

So you're saying training in side-by-side isn't a benefit to a wizard when grouped? Or Dirtkick, which can be used just as easily from defensive stance as offensive stance? I'd say those are benefits that go beyond just defending against CMAN attacks. So in truth, you do LITERALLY get more benefit from CM training other than just defense from CMAN's. Whether you think it is worth the TP's or not is another discussion, however.


~Aulis
Forums Manager
QC'er
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| author = THROGG
| date = on 09/13/2015 01:43 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!
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''>>Well, kinda - its a post cap discussion, for sure. But probably not quite as far out a post cap discussion as 50 spells for a warrior.<< ''
My mage had 101 ranks of CMan at level 99. And she used feint to make her targets hittable with weapons. Show me a level 99 warrior with 50 ranks of spells. It is nowhere near a comparable feat.
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = KEITHOBAD
| date = on 09/13/2015 01:46 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!
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Aw c'mon, I hope you're teasing. If wizards are training anything other than disarm (and feint for warmages) I'd be rather surprised considering losing the runestaff is a virtual death-sentence.

In a fair world I think squares should be as vulnerable to TD attacks as pures are to Cmans. The fact that wizards are incredibly susceptible to both seems kinda lame. Or let our elemental mastery give us super-dodgy bonuses to maneuver-based elemental spells like 435, 912, 410, 917, etc... We've got weaknesses in spades and soon RT will be added to that list for some reason.

The greatest defensive gains from the ELR have been in DS which is the one spot we DON'T need help.

Anyway, something I noticed looking at the numbers: The TD gains you'd get through CvA switching from fulls to doubles is equivalent to the lore bonus of 508 with a full 100 ranks EL:E.
Look at that, on topic! :D
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 09/13/2015 06:05 AM PDT
| subject = 502 Suggestion - Blinding light
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This snippet from another thread gave me an idea for a new wizard spell. At least this seems in line for a profession that is expected to be primarily EBP based attac focused.

''>> So you're saying training in side-by-side isn't a benefit to a wizard when grouped? Or Dirtkick, which can be used just as easily from defensive stance as offensive stance?''

502 - Blinding Light (or gust of wind if you prefer to go that route).

Creates a brilliant elemental flare which temporarily blinds/stuns the target similar to how dirtkick works today. Tie the effectiveness of the flare to the warding check and modify the result upward based on fire lore.

From CMAN HELP DIRTKICK
''Description: Attempt to kick dirt into the face of an opponent in order to temporarily reduce their Attack Strength, Perception Bonus, and chance at Evading, Blocking, or Parrying attacks.''
''Rank 1: -10 AS/-20 Perception/-15% EBP''
''Rank 2: -15 AS/-30 Perception/-20% EBP''
''Rank 3: -20 AS/-40 Perception/-25% EBP''
''Rank 4: -25 AS/-50 Perception/-30% EBP''
''Rank 5: -30 AS/-60 Perception/-35% EBP''

-- Robert

The ELR will never end! VIVE LA ELR! ~ Konacon
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = OBSERVER
| date = on 09/13/2015 06:27 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!
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1. Training in spells as a warrior or a rogue lowers their Redux. Training in CM does not lower a pure's magical defenses (opportunity costs do not count.)

2. A square needs exactly 0 spell ranks to walk around with 401, 406, 414, 101, 103, 107, 115, and 120. These spells are among the easiest to obtain and activate in the game.
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 09/13/2015 07:11 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!
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''>> 2. A square needs exactly 0 spell ranks to walk around with 401, 406, 414, 101, 103, 107, 115, and 120. These spells are among the easiest to obtain and activate in the game.''

I agree with 401, 406, 414, 101, 103 (not stackable unless self cast), and 107. But how are 115 and 120 among the ''easiest to obtain'' in the game?

-- Robert

The ELR will never end! VIVE LA ELR! ~ Konacon
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = OBSERVER
| date = on 09/13/2015 07:40 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!
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Sorcerers can embed them, as can clerics. That makes them infinite in amount of one so desired.
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| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!
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Okay, so via training in MIU. I must have missed a point as I thought you were referring to ease of access via someone casting the spell on you.

Thanks for clarifying.

-- Robert

The ELR will never end! VIVE LA ELR! ~ Konacon
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = OBSERVER
| date = on 09/13/2015 08:14 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!
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And in 115's case, training in Arcane Symbols. 115 is a commonly found spell and is amongst the easiest a sorcerer can work with. Having 20 uses at a time isn't anything to sneeze at, but it still can't touch the availability of a spell capable of being imbedded. If we are going to argue that it is difficult to obtain spells capable of being imbedded, then we're going to have to revisit the problem of the ubiquity of Haste.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = TGO01
| date = on 09/13/2015 09:59 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!
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''>So you're saying training in side-by-side isn't a benefit to a wizard when grouped?''

Sure if I literally want to spend upwards of 60% of my available CMAN points for a CMAN that only benefits me while in a group, and to get the most benefit requires my group to have side by side training as well. We're also talking about an ability that increases physical AS only (absolute zero use for my wizard) and a small boost in DS, which my wizard doesn't really need.

''>Or Dirtkick, which can be used just as easily from defensive stance as offensive stance?''

If I have to make a choice between training in feint and cunning defense for the defense or dirtkick for the offense capability of dirtkick, I'm going with feint and cunning defense training, especially considering I have things like ewave and call wind to use instead of dirtkick.

''>I'd say those are benefits that go beyond just defending against CMAN attacks.''

Sure if wizards had 200 CMAN points like squares and semis can get.

''>So in truth, you do LITERALLY get more benefit from CM training other than just defense from CMAN's.''

No. No I don't. What I said exactly was "Keep in mind my wizard gets literally no benefit from CM training other than defense against CMANs." My wizard trained in CM for no other reason than because he needed the defense that training in those CMANs provided. That's it. My wizard is literally getting no benefit other than CMAN defense from his CM training. You can argue that there is a mythical wizard out there who chooses to get dirtkick to use it in defensive stance over something like feint or disarm weapon or cunning defense, but I'm willing to bet that number is pretty low.

''>My mage had 101 ranks of CMan at level 99. And she used feint to make her targets hittable with weapons. Show me a level 99 warrior with 50 ranks of spells. It is nowhere near a comparable feat. ''

To my knowledge your wizard is a warmage, so you're training in CM for the AS. Pure wizards do not need the AS from CM.
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = TGO01
| date = on 09/13/2015 11:25 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!
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I just thought of something else, we keep saying a wizard is weak against TD (mostly spirit/hybrid TD) and maneuvers but we are forgetting another very big vulnerability they have, Force on Force.

Force on Force can quickly kill a wizard. A warrior trains in MoC anyways for DFredux and mstrike but it also helps them against FoF.

How many wizards train in MoC period? I'm willing to guess the number is close to zero, at least the number of wizards at cap with 101 ranks in MoC.

So that's three disadvantages in combat that wizards have, none of which have been addressed in the ELR, yet wizards are first up on the chopping block for nerfs.

Meanwhile warriors are complaining in the other thread that mstrike isn't really that good because of the long RTs they are put in when using it. That's funny, if it's not all that good then why does literally every warrior use mstrike?
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 09/13/2015 11:35 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!
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''>> How many wizards train in MoC period? I'm willing to guess the number is close to zero, at least the number of wizards at cap with 101 ranks in MoC.''

I have 10 ranks that I trained somewhere around cap. It made a noticeable difference in survival when knocked over and stunned.

It's also worth training at least a few ranks even before cap for ball spell splash.

-- Robert aka Faulkil

The ELR will never end! VIVE LA ELR! ~ Konacon
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{{saved-post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = TGO01
| date = on 09/13/2015 11:38 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!
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''>I have 10 ranks that I trained somewhere around cap. It made a noticeable difference in survival when knocked over and stunned.''

That's another 350 PTPs a wizard trains in for defensive purposes, which translates to another 3 spells a warrior could learn. We're already up to what, almost 30 spells a warrior could have if they trained in the things wizards do for the defensive properties?
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = SHAYD11
| date = on 09/13/2015 12:56 PM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!
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I think its been obviously shown that warriors are superior to wizards with the amazing math and caluclations(certainly there was no weird scenarios posted, a warrior with 80million exp in the rift might have more td, oh no! Proof they are better in one circumstance). The solution is to let these lucky wizards have a one time chance to change professions to warriors after the 506/515 nerfs go through. I would bet exactly NONE would opt for this choice except 1 or 2 weird warmages who wanted to use their expensive weapon still.
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!
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''>I think its been obviously shown that warriors are superior to wizards with the amazing math and caluclations(certainly there was no weird scenarios posted, a warrior with 80million exp in the rift might have more td, oh no!''

If you are not going to bother taking my arguments into account then why are you even bothering to reply to my comments? I have taken everything everyone has said and actually argued against the points they have brought up. You apparently are ignoring my points and engaging in "reductio ad absurdum" in order to downplay the points I am making.

But what the heck, I'll reiterate my points.

I showed that with ZERO spell training a warrior could have a higher STD than wizards. ZERO spell training. Meaning a warrior just has to cap and BAM! Higher STD than even a wizard with 100 million experience.

I then showed that with just 20 spell ranks a warrior could have even more STD than a warrior and close the ETD gap. I then showed with 50 spell ranks they could blow a wizard out of the water in STD and come within striking distance of a wizard's ETD.

I then showed how a wizard has to invest TPs in several different skills to help overcome their weaknesses and that with these TP investments a warrior could train in almost 30 spell ranks with the same amount of TPs. This shows it doesn't require a warrior with 80 million experience to get 30 spell ranks. Not even close. Not even a fourth of that.

''>The solution is to let these lucky wizards have a one time chance to change professions to warriors after the 506/515 nerfs go through. I would bet exactly NONE would opt for this choice except 1 or 2 weird warmages who wanted to use their expensive weapon still.''

This is a silly argument and doesn't even comment on a single point I have made. You sir are quite frankly being silly, off topic, and highly insulting. Don't get me wrong, I'm beginning to like you. You remind me of a young me, or even a me of today depending on my mood.
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| author = TGO01
| date = on 09/13/2015 01:04 PM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!
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''>I then showed that with just 20 spell ranks a warrior could have even more STD than a warrior and close the ETD gap.''

A warrior could have more STD than a wizard. DERP!
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = CAVEMANIAC
| date = on 09/13/2015 03:15 PM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!
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I cant believe that Warriors are being compared favorably to Wizards. The TD issue is real but only occurs in the rift due to the mechanics of the sphere. With 0 additional training wizards can have waaay more defenses than warriors/rogues in spell burst areas.

Mstrike is a great skill for melee but the comparison being made is really a stretch.
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = TGO01
| date = on 09/13/2015 03:29 PM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!
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''>The TD issue is real but only occurs in the rift due to the mechanics of the sphere.''

"Only" in the rift? Isn't the rift one of only like 3 hunting grounds? I do believe it holds the only post cap hunting ground as well, yes?

''>With 0 additional training wizards can have waaay more defenses than warriors/rogues in spell burst areas.''

And how many spell burst capped hunting grounds are there? 1?

So we downplay the significance of the rift because it's "only" the Rift but we pay special attention to the spell burst areas.

And if that warrior is training in spells himself and training in AS and MIU then he's not that much worse off than wizards even in spell burst areas.

''>Mstrike is a great skill for melee but the comparison being made is really a stretch.''

Okay. Care to elaborate at all? I feel like I'm doing all of this research and maths and showing my work and backing up my arguments just for someone to come along with "I disagree."

Like..okay..are we having a discussion or treating this like a Facebook post where people just "Like" and "Share" if they agree?
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 09/13/2015 04:12 PM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!
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Has this been given any consideration or am I way off base on this (like, maybe there are no critters that actually cast stone skin)?

-- Robert

The ELR will never end! VIVE LA ELR! ~ Konacon
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = OBSERVER
| date = on 09/13/2015 04:23 PM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!
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Moulis apparently have stone skin. Someone was mocked on the PC for being killed by a reactive vibration flare. heh.
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| author = ERYKK2
| date = on 09/13/2015 04:32 PM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!
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{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|Has this been given any consideration or am I way off base on this (like, maybe there are no critters that actually cast stone skin)?
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|-- Robert
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|}

Moulis cast it.
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = CAVEMANIAC
| date = on 09/13/2015 05:42 PM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!
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Yes, only in the rift. Every other hunting ground the wizard wins. We will see what happens with the new capped hunting area. That is a capped hunting issue as its 1 area in the entire game.

Warriors should not have better magical defenses than any semi or pure so its definitely something that should be tweaked. However, it would be a pretty big nerf to 99% of warriors and rogues in the rift. When you factor in the hard RT for melee hunting it would be much worse than what wizards experience now. I hope if that happens it is low on the priority list.

As for mstrike, its too difficult to compare imo because of the difference between melee attacks, spells, mana,stamina and their pools/regen. It does however have a cooldown that varies with weapon speed, in some cases significant RT without good stats or small weapons, a penalty of 30-60+ stamina to use during the downtime depending on the type of mstrike and weapon used which resets the timer. It actually starts to sound similar to the proposed haste and rapid fire changes atleast on the surface. I dont think you can outright say mstrike is too strong in comparison.
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = GOLDENOAK2
| date = on 09/13/2015 06:15 PM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!
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One other thing to consider when comparing physical attacks like Mstrike to magical attacks like cone of whatever and rapid fire...is encumbrance. Last time I checked encumbrance doesn't impact spell RT, but it can literally kill physical attacks. I can't count how many times my 3 second attack escalated to 10 seconds from picking up an odd box or two. Now imagine what that same encumbrance does to an Mstrikes RT.
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| author = KEITHOBAD
| date = on 09/13/2015 06:21 PM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!
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I think TGO01's point is that a lot of the warrior's weakness can be trained away. Sorcs and wizards will be absolutely GARBAGE at avoiding Cmans no matter how many points they sink into Cmans, perception, etc...

No wizard, in any hunting ground, at any point in the game, will come close to the cman defense of an equal level warrior.
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = CAVEMANIAC
| date = on 09/13/2015 09:13 PM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!
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That much is definitely true. The only advantage that pures have is overall better crowd control and the ability to stay or return to guarded stance to minimize risk. That does nothing about instagib cmans or creature manuevers.

What is the cman defense of a wizard with 1x PF, 1x CM, cdef, fully trained in the relevant CMAN defending against a like level creature? Less than 50% chance to defend? Less than 25%? Do they have any spells that help with manuever defense? How does that compare in normal circumstances to clerics with 319, sorcs with pestilence, or empaths with 3x PF? Might be a good thing for lore to improve.
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{{saved-post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = KEITHOBAD
| date = on 09/13/2015 10:03 PM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!
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I'm very curious on the the mechanics behind CML defense, the wiki seemed to be missing details on this.

Currently I can only give anecdotal evidence but my wizard with 1x PF and nearly 1x CM (in feint though, not cdef) was basically in the 20-40% range for warding cmans.

As far as I know nothing helps with maneuver defense except 540? But the base proc chance is 10% climbing to 25% @ capped. From my understanding that is below 319 but I only have a little experience using Soul Ward.
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = ASPEN
| date = on 09/14/2015 06:36 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!
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''>>It's a serious design flaw. I think one time I figured it up that warriors could potentially have a higher TD in the Rift due to being able to wear both minor spirit and minor elemental spells whereas wizards can only wear their elemental spells.''

This was the case definitely in GS3, especially when you account for CvA, which of course you must. Wizards had more or less the worst TD in the rift back in those days. It was made better somewhat by the reduction in bonuses from 101 and 107, and the addition of 913.
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| date = on 09/14/2015 09:14 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!
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Know what else would fix it? Move 401/406/414 to the 500's and replace them with 502/512/514.

''>>runs away''
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = KRAKII
| date = on 09/14/2015 09:42 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!
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"CML defense" -- various authors

I'm curious: how many Wizards have Enhancives for this? How many have never considered it?

.

My immediate thought whenever I see some kind of glaring weakness in a profession is always Enhancives, and--since I am Premium--I always look at the Premium Points system to see what I could get.

With comparatively little difficulty--four and a half years--I can get (3x 1800 ==) 5400 points for three Level2 Enhancives on some items, each of them for +7 CM/+3 MOC. Then--again, assuming the character is in the Adventurer's Guild, which at this point is pretty much "everyone except my characters"--I look over there and see the possibility of adding to each of those again.

Expecting that the annual "recharge Enhancives with silver" is going to come around again, as it nearly always does during the Holidays at the end of the year, this does not seem too terribly onerous to me.

An extra 20-30 ranks of CM (depending on how many Level2s you want to get, and how high you have your Guild Badge cranked up), at cap, and 10+ ranks of MOC, would seem to be well worth sinking some effort into.

.

Do other people think like this, or do this, or is this really something that people don't even bother with? Despite how much they, you know, complain about access to <whatever these really expensive skills are>? Dodge, say, would be another good place to sink some PremiumPoints.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 819
| author = BALEKIA
| date = on 09/14/2015 09:58 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!
}}
<br>
My understanding around the CML defense is that ranks of CM itself is of very small benefit, more important is having the maneuver trained, hence training Disarm.

As far as enhancives, I think the other argument is that the benefit from CM is probably less than the benefit from +40 ranks of something more offensive, say spell aiming or fire lore for immo builds. While eventually getting the +40 CM would obviously help anybody to some extent, there's probably purchases that are more price efficient.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 820
| author = DRUMPEL
| date = on 09/14/2015 11:02 AM PDT
| subject = Stone Skin - idea
}}
<br>
Any wizard that takes hits, we all know that Stone Skin is just a poor man's damage padding that doesn't really help since the skin tends to shatter quiet easy at low levels/skills.

While the idea of what Stone Skin currently is, is certainly unique from any other spell wizards have to reduce actual damage when getting hit, it just lacks the actual functionality that most (if not all) wizards view it should have.

I know that 520 is (so I've heard) on the list for a re-work, but I figured I'd toss in my two cents.

First things first - drop the vibration flares for causing damage. If something hits you, the vibe flares aren't going to matter and the chance they do any kind of significant damage to your target are slim to none.

Next, remove the summation chart bonus, I'd like to see a straight up shift to skill based for the initial benefits of the spell. IF some fluffy add-on benefit is to be had, then by all means, you can tag to the summation chart.

{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|Stone Skin (520)
|-
|
|-
|Manipulating the elemental forces within your body, you form a layer of hard stone that shifts with your movements. This self-cast spell provides a hardened stone surface that mimics armor protection. The greater the skill in MjE Spell Ranks, the harder the stone becomes.
|-
|
|-
|MjE Spell ranks will determine what armor your Stone Skin can mimic. Starting at 20 ranks puts the spell at Full Leather equivalent. Every 10 MjE spell ranks improves your Stone Skin by 1 ASG. So at 30 ranks your Stone Skin mimics Reinforced Leather. At 40 ranks it mimics Double Leather all the way up to maxing at 110 ranks to mimic Chain Mail. There is no spell hindrance tied to the Stone Skin armor and no armor maneuver penalties either.
|-
|
|-
|The base level of Stone Skin can withstand 100 points of damage before it shatters. Every MjE and every EL:E/2 rank you know earns +1 to the amount of damage your stone skin can survive through before it shatters.
|-
|
|-
|Those that are well trained in EL:E will gain Crit Padding protection on a limited scale, upwards of +5 crit padding. Every 40 ranks of EL:E will provide +1 crit padding protection that maxes at +5 at 200 EL:E ranks.
|-
|
|-
|A couple of examples:
|-
|A wizard with 60 MjE Spell ranks and 80 EL:E ranks would have the following benefits:
|-
|Armor equivalent to ASG 10 (Cuirbouilli leather)
|-
|Stone Skin shatter point: 100 + (60 + (80/2)) = 200 points before it shatters
|-
|Crit padding = +2 points
|-
|
|-
|
|-
|
|-
|A wizard with 70 MjE Spell ranks and 0 EL:E ranks would have the following benefits:
|-
|Armor equivalent to ASG 11 (Studded Leather)
|-
|Stone Skin shatter point: 100 + (70) = 170 points before it shatters
|-
|No crit padding
|-
|
|-
|Notes
|-
|This version of Stone Skin does not absorb damage. The Stone Skin has a shatter point once enough damage is done to the caster.
|-
|The spell is not stackable with crit padded armor and the spell only works if you're wearing armor with ASG lower than what the spell provides. If you're wearing ASG 8 (Double Leather), but you have less than 40 MjE spell ranks, the stone skill will fail to form.
|-
|Any armor worn under Stone Skin, you will still suffer any penalties tied to the armor; spell hinderance, maneuver penalties, etc...
|}

Something like this can benefit many wizards. I'd love to see my wizard in cloth/robes, but the slight improved protection of full leather makes me wear them due to current game mechanics. Granted the benefit isn't much, but it's better than nothing.

Those that don't train in Earth Lore can still get better armor based protection with enough MjE spell ranks. To those wizards that do train in EL:E, they'll see added benefits. This way those warmages can get improved armor without having to solely rely on dumping a ton of TPs into actual Armor Training, not to mention no casting or true armor restrictions. Less TPs dumped into Armor Training, they can focus more at being a wizard and train in some lores. For the rest of us glass figurines, we can have better armor protection from maneuvers as well. For the younger wizards, sure, they won't benefit much from the spell initially, but this spell should be geared more towards the mid to high levels of the game since it is a 20th level spell.

-Drumpel (bored on his lunch break)
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 821
| author = FIREPHOENIX
| date = on 09/14/2015 12:24 PM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!
}}
<br>
GMs mentioned perception has a lot of value on CM at some point during HSN too versus straight combat maneuvers.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 822
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 09/14/2015 12:52 PM PDT
| subject = Shenanigans!
}}
<br>
Hi everybody! It's been super quiet today, so I thought I would give a little sneak peek of things still to come.

''> -- START LOG''

Your reach inside your hoodie, pull out a helping of mixed dried rat, and place it neatly on the ground.
Your reach inside your black shirt, pull out a piece of toasted rat, and place it neatly on the ground.
Your reach inside your blue jeans, pull out a tall glass of nectar rat, and place it neatly on the ground.
Your reach inside your hoodie, pull out a chunk of crusty rye rat, and place it neatly on the ground.
Your reach inside your black shirt, pull out a sugared molasses ginger rat, and place it neatly on the ground.
''> pre 518''
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cone of Elements...
Your spell is ready.
''> evoke air''
You gesture.
You unleash a compact swirling vortex at a sugared molasses ginger rat!
AS: +449 vs DS: +386 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +41 = +144
... and hit for 70 points of damage!
Left arm explodes at the shoulder!
The molasses ginger rat shrieks as it slumps to the ground and licks at its wounded left foreleg.
The molasses ginger rat is stunned!
You unleash a compact swirling vortex at a chunk of crusty rye rat!
AS: +449 vs DS: +386 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +63 = +166
... and hit for 67 points of damage!
Bones in arm crack and blood vessels burst!
The crusty rye rat is stunned!
You unleash a compact swirling vortex at a tall glass of nectar rat!
AS: +449 vs DS: +386 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +87 = +190
... and hit for 101 points of damage!
Bones in left leg shatter violently leaving behind a bloody stump!
The nectar rat squeals loudly and falls to the ground while frantically gnawing at its wounded left hind leg.
The nectar rat is stunned!
You unleash a compact swirling vortex at a piece of toasted rat!
AS: +449 vs DS: +386 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +38 = +141
... and hit for 57 points of damage!
Ribs shatter and blood fills lungs!
The toasted rat is stunned!
You unleash a compact swirling vortex at a helping of mixed dried rat!
AS: +449 vs DS: +386 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +15 = +118
... and hit for 24 points of damage!
Ribs crack as chest swells!

''> -- END LOG''

~ Konacon
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 823
| author = BALEKIA
| date = on 09/14/2015 12:57 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Shenanigans!
}}
<br>
''>> Hi everybody! It's been super quiet today, so I thought I would give a little sneak peek of things still to come.''

[WOW!], Wizards are getting the conjure rat spell? Awesome.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 824
| author = GOLDENOAK2
| date = on 09/14/2015 12:59 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Shenanigans!
}}
<br>
are the rats going to be in the new capped area...and can we eat their pelts?
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 825
| author = BALEKIA
| date = on 09/14/2015 01:00 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Shenanigans!
}}
<br>
''>> are the rats going to be in the new capped area...and can we eat their pelts?''

Honestly, those rats should be edible in their entirety, at least for some of them.

Ooh.. new UAC bite attack? Devour Rat combat maneuver?
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 826
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 09/14/2015 01:01 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Shenanigans!
}}
<br>
I'm being shenanigans'ed back at my shenanigans! I don't know how to handle this...

~ Konacon
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 827
| author = OBSERVER
| date = on 09/14/2015 01:08 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Shenanigans!
}}
<br>
Neat spell. It would be cool to see some of the new ELR updates working in conjunction with Cone of Elements. Major Shock flares for instance would be cool.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 828
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 09/14/2015 01:27 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Shenanigans!
}}
<br>
The purpose was -actually- to show off the new vacuum damage bolt type, which is a new bolt ONLY available to Cone of Elements. (Usual disclaimer involving things which may change in the future.)

~ Konacon
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 829
| author = OBSERVER
| date = on 09/14/2015 01:28 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Shenanigans!
}}
<br>
I noticed that. Very cool. Here's hoping the number crunchers can use what little you've posted to dial in on the bolt's stats.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 830
| author = BALEKIA
| date = on 09/14/2015 01:30 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Shenanigans!
}}
<br>
''>> I noticed that. Very cool. Here's hoping the number crunchers can use what little you've posted to dial in on the bolt's stats. ''

It seems like it has a pretty nice DF and vacuum crits stun a lot.

Was there any lore benefit applied to the bolt's DF?

Also, will Evoke Lightning allow for CoE to do 910 still?
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 831
| author = KEITHOBAD
| date = on 09/14/2015 01:36 PM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!
}}
<br>
I think you're getting that mixed up with creature maneuvers.

PF >> CMAN >= Perception. (Cman is twice as good as perception in defensive, and equal in offensive).

Perception might help with CML, but I can't find a source to cite.

The above formula comes from https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Creature_maneuver
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 832
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 09/14/2015 01:43 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Shenanigans!
}}
<br>
''> Was there any lore benefit applied to the bolt's DF?''

Yes. I... Don't remember how much though. I think it was 0.075.

''> Also, will Evoke Lightning allow for CoE to do 910 still?''

Yes. As it currently stands the cast types and their bolts are:
- Air = Vacuum Bolt Thing
- Fire = Minor Fire (906)
- Earth = Hurl Boulder (510)
- Water = Minor Cold (1709)
- Lightning = Major Shock (910)

''> -- LOG''

''>pre 518''
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cone of Elements...
Your spell is ready.
''>evoke fire''
You gesture.
You hurl a stream of fire at a sugar rat!
AS: +336 vs DS: +264 with AvD: +55 + d100 roll: +16 = +143
... and hit for 68 points of damage!
Flame sets a sugar rat's head alight like a torch. Burned beyond recognition.
The sugar rat is stunned!
Some of the flames from the stream of fire linger around a sugar rat.
You hurl a stream of fire at some crisp green apple rat!
AS: +336 vs DS: +264 with AvD: +55 + d100 roll: +69 = +196
... and hit for 134 points of damage!
Flames engulf body. Chest left a smoldering ruin.
The green apple rat is stunned!
Some of the flames from the stream of fire linger around some crisp green apple rat.
You hurl a stream of fire at a golden apple rat!
AS: +336 vs DS: +250 with AvD: +55 + d100 roll: +72 = +213
... and hit for 107 points of damage!
Flames incinerate left leg to the bone. Not a pleasant sight.
The apple rat is knocked to the ground!
The apple rat is stunned!
Some of the flames from the stream of fire linger around a golden apple rat.
''>''
The flames around a golden apple rat continue to burn!
... 20 points of damage!
Nasty burns to chest make you wish you never heard of heartburn.
''>''
The flames around some crisp green apple rat continue to burn!
... 15 points of damage!
Burst of flames char abdomen a crispy black.
''>''
The flames around a sugar rat continue to burn!
... 10 points of damage!
Burst of flames to right arm burns skin bright red.
''>''
The flames around a golden apple rat continue to burn!
... 20 points of damage!
Nasty burns to back. Won't be sleeping on that for awhile.
The flames around the rat die down.
''>''
The flames around some crisp green apple rat continue to burn!
... 20 points of damage!
Nasty burns to back. Won't be sleeping on that for awhile.
The flames around the rat die down.
''>''
The flames around a sugar rat continue to burn!
... 15 points of damage!
Burst of flames char abdomen a crispy black.
The flames around the rat die down.

''> -- LOG''

~ Konacon
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 833
| author = BALEKIA
| date = on 09/14/2015 01:50 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Shenanigans!
}}
<br>
''>> Yes. I... Don't remember how much though. I think it was 0.075.''

That would imply maximum Air Lore bonus, assuming it has the same DF formula as 910.

Also, based on just the general lore bonuses of the spells attached to this, is there any chance that 1709 could get the standard DF from Water Lore applied to it? The DF on the spell is almost identical to 906, and actually less than 910 or 510, so it doesn't sound like an unreasonable request.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 834
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 09/14/2015 01:52 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Shenanigans!
}}
<br>
''> That would imply maximum Air Lore bonus, assuming it has the same DF formula as 910.''

It does not use the same formula as 910. It uses the more standard version for DF increases to bolt spells.

''> Also, based on just the general lore bonuses of the spells attached to this, is there any chance that 1709 could get the standard DF from Water Lore applied to it? ''

1709 should already have this as far as I can tell. :)

~ Konacon
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 835
| author = OBSERVER
| date = on 09/14/2015 01:53 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Shenanigans!
}}
<br>
Hey Konacon,

It sounds like you guys have a mind to keep this bolt a Cone exclusive, but has there been any discussion of putting it on the Arcane list?
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 836
| author = BALEKIA
| date = on 09/14/2015 01:54 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Shenanigans!
}}
<br>
''>> It does not use the same formula as 910. It uses the more standard version for DF increases to bolt spells.''

So 510 and 906, which cap out at .1 at 200, rather than .075 at 200 like 910 does. Got it.

''>> 1709 should already have this as far as I can tell. :)''

If so, then great, might just be missing on the wiki. As mentioned, it's enough in line with current spell design that the ommission seemed more odd than anything.





What are the odds of getting INVOKE ACID into there? I know it's asking for more... but again, all those bolts are about the same power...
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 837
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 09/14/2015 01:56 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Shenanigans!
}}
<br>
''> It sounds like you guys have a mind to keep this bolt a Cone exclusive, but has there been any discussion of putting it on the Arcane list?''

I don't know that we have a mind to keep it Cone exclusive. I think that's still a little bit up in the air at the moment. I can tell you that when Cone of Elements goes live it will be Cone exclusive.

~ Konacon
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 838
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 09/14/2015 01:58 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Shenanigans!
}}
<br>
''> What are the odds of getting INVOKE ACID into there?''

I can't actually speak to this one. Personally, I think it'd be neat.

~ Konacon
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 839
| author = BALEKIA
| date = on 09/14/2015 02:01 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Shenanigans!
}}
<br>
''>> I don't know that we have a mind to keep it Cone exclusive. I think that's still a little bit up in the air at the moment. I can tell you that when Cone of Elements goes live it will be Cone exclusive.''

With lightning as Air/Water hybrid, having a pure Air bolt lays a great amount of foundation for having standardized hybridization, such as Water/Earth lore helping the Acid spells in terms of DF, allow Water/Fire to help with 1707 (Minor Steam). We also already have Air/Earth (Sandstorm), and Earth/Fire (Boil Earth) although bolting them into cone would be hard. That just leaves Air/Fire.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 840
| author = BALEKIA
| date = on 09/14/2015 02:02 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Shenanigans!
}}
<br>
''>> I can't actually speak to this one. Personally, I think it'd be neat.''

Consider it requested? Based on the foundation already in place for cone, I imagine it's probably not hard mechanically, and from a balance standpoint that spell isn't out of line with the others already available.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 841
| author = OBSERVER
| date = on 09/14/2015 02:02 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Shenanigans!
}}
<br>
Thanks for the information, K.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 842
| author = KRAKII
| date = on 09/14/2015 02:13 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Shenanigans!
}}
<br>
Evoke.

Invoke is for scrolls.

.

Though maybe you would consider Hand of Tonis with an Evoke activator, higher mana cost, and a single-target version of the Cone-of-Air-bolt...? :)
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 843
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 09/14/2015 02:33 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Shenanigans!
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|BALEKIA
|-
|What are the odds of getting INVOKE ACID into there? I know it's asking for more... but again, all those bolts are about the same power...
|}

''> I can't actually speak to this one.''

I can speak to it now. How about if we add Minor Acid (904) and throw Minor Steam (1707) on while we're at it.

Acid will require 10 ranks each of water and earth to cast. Steam will require 10 ranks each of water and fire.

''> -- LOG''

''>pre 518''
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cone of Elements...
Your spell is ready.
''>evoke acid''
You gesture.
You hurl a hissing stream of acid at a tawny golden pear rat!
AS: +336 vs DS: +198 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +82 = +260
... and hit for 134 points of damage!
Acid causing a gaping hole in the back can't be healthy!
The pear rat is stunned!
Some of the acid sticks to a tawny golden pear rat and continues to bubble away!
You hurl a hissing stream of acid at a dollop of mango rat!
AS: +336 vs DS: +101 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +17 = +292
... and hit for 171 points of damage!
Acid bath empties chest. It's a lot cleaner now.
The mango rat is stunned!
Some of the acid sticks to a dollop of mango rat and continues to bubble away!
You hurl a hissing stream of acid at a dark purple rat!
AS: +336 vs DS: +101 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +3 = +278
... and hit for 118 points of damage!
Acid dissolves abdominal muscles. No sucking in the gut now!
The dark purple rat is stunned!
Some of the acid sticks to a dark purple rat and continues to bubble away!
''>''
Acid continues to eat away at a dark purple rat!
... 25 points of damage!
Severe burn to the side of the dark purple rat's chest exposes ribs!
''>''
Acid continues to eat away at a dollop of mango rat!
... 30 points of damage!
Dissolved larynx opens windpipe. Unfortunately it quickly fills with blood!
''>''
Acid continues to eat away at a tawny golden pear rat!
... 30 points of damage!
Acid opens midsection. Loose organs cause the pear rat to watch its step!
''>''
Acid continues to eat away at a dollop of mango rat!
... 35 points of damage!
The mango rat's arm is drenched in acid! Flesh and bones are reduced to a smoking slime!
The mango rat shrieks as it slumps to the ground and licks at its wounded left foreleg.
The acid quickly bubbles away and disappears.
''>''
Acid continues to eat away at a tawny golden pear rat!
... 20 points of damage!
Acid spray dissolves flesh exposing the muscles over the ribs!
The acid quickly bubbles away and disappears.
''>''
Acid continues to eat away at a dark purple rat!
... 25 points of damage!
Burn to the elbow eats through tendons. Muscles snap free!
The acid quickly bubbles away and disappears.

''> -- LOG''

~ Konacon
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 844
| author = SPYRIDONM1
| date = on 09/14/2015 02:38 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Shenanigans!
}}
<br>
~I noticed that. Very cool. Here's hoping the number crunchers can use what little you've posted to dial in on the bolt's stats. - Observer

Can't get an exact DF yet because the vacuum critical table only lists CS-based damage values. Once the spell goes live, AS-based crit damage can be calculated and added to the table. With that said, if the DFs include a .075 lore bonus, my best guess is that the cloth DF is .710 or .715 (both values are good fits).

Mark
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 845
| author = BALEKIA
| date = on 09/14/2015 02:46 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Shenanigans!
}}
<br>
Nice, and it keeps the sticky effect to maintain competitive edge! Much appreciated.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 846
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 09/14/2015 03:06 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Shenanigans!
}}
<br>
Still not excited? I don't know how! Okay fine, the silent treatment is strong in you!

What if we sweeten the deal A LITTLE BIT MORE...

''> -- LOG''

''> look''
[Konacon's Office]
The office is completely barren except for a statue of a man with some dogs curled at his feet placed in the center of the room.
Obvious exits: none
''> pre 518''
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cone of Elements...
Your spell is ready.
''> cast''
You gesture.
Nothing happens.
''> pre 518''
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cone of Elements...
Your spell is ready.
''> evoke''
You gesture.
You hurl a stream of fire at a bandit!
AS: +336 vs DS: +316 with AvD: +55 + d100 roll: +36 = +111
... and hit for 23 points of damage!
Burst of flames char abdomen a crispy black.
The bandit is stunned!
The bandit falls out of hiding as a result of the attack!
You hurl a stream of fire at a bandit!
AS: +336 vs DS: +304 with AvD: +55 + d100 roll: +80 = +167
... and hit for 71 points of damage!
Extreme heat causes a bandit's right leg to expand and snap. That must hurt!
The bandit is knocked to the ground!
The bandit is stunned!
The bandit falls out of hiding as a result of the attack!
You hurl a stream of fire at a bandit!
AS: +336 vs DS: +316 with AvD: +55 + d100 roll: +95 = +170
... and hit for 63 points of damage!
Flames incinerate left arm to the bone. Not a pleasant sight.
The bandit is stunned!
The bandit falls out of hiding as a result of the attack!
You hurl a stream of fire at a bandit!
AS: +336 vs DS: +344 with AvD: +55 + d100 roll: +4 = +51
A clean miss.

''> -- LOG''

~ Konacon
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 847
| author = TANDL
| date = on 09/14/2015 04:11 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Shenanigans!
}}
<br>
Wait, it's been nerfed to summoning hidden bandits instead of rats? I bet it's based on seed 100 (ranks) too isn't it? You've ruined it. Forever.

Tal.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 848
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 09/14/2015 04:14 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Shenanigans!
}}
<br>
''> Wait, it's been nerfed to summoning hidden bandits instead of rats? I bet it's based on seed 100 (ranks) too isn't it? You've ruined it. Forever.''

Seed 100 for summoning hidden bandits?! That nerf wouldn't even be noticeable. It's seed 0.1.

~ Konacon
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 849
| author = OBSERVER
| date = on 09/14/2015 05:12 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Shenanigans!
}}
<br>
Question for you, Konacon. Is Plasma considered to be spiritual in nature? If not, I could see it fitting as a combination of Fire and Air.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 850
| author = RROY
| date = on 09/15/2015 01:35 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Shenanigans!
}}
<br>
Looks like Cone is going to be super! Thanks Konacon!

Just an elf about town...
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 851
| author = AUDIOSERF
| date = on 09/15/2015 03:02 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Shenanigans!
}}
<br>
The Cone changes look really exciting. Thanks Konacon.

Krakii's idea of EVOKE 505 to produce the new void-crit bolt is worth repeating to see if it's feasible.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 852
| author = DEANSMITH
| date = on 09/15/2015 05:21 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Shenanigans!
}}
<br>
Spell looks neat.

I have a few questions:

I see that you mentioned that Steam and Acid will require some lore training to evoke. Are the Air, Earth, Fire, and Water versions available to all Wizards with no additional lore training? Does Lightning require 10 in Air and Water lores?

For elements with special effects on hit (Ignite, Acid Burn, Stun Shock) are the proc rates the same as when you cast their respective single target versions?

I ask this because, as a Fire Mage, the Minor Fire version of this spell looks a tad weak to me. Especially if the Ignite effect only procs 60% of the time with 200 ranks of lore.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 853
| author = BALEKIA
| date = on 09/15/2015 06:31 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Shenanigans!
}}
<br>
''>> I ask this because, as a Fire Mage, the Minor Fire version of this spell looks a tad weak to me. Especially if the Ignite effect only procs 60% of the time with 200 ranks of lore.''

Let's run some numbers to find out!

At 200 Fire Lore ranks, 906 has the following DF:

.767/.555/.445/.423/.403

Similarly, at 200 Air/Water ranks, 910 has the following:

.825/.63/.508/.49/.508

Which yeah, puts it at between 7% (cloth) and 20% (Plate) difference in DF.

However, we also need to compare the AVD's of the two spells. I'm only going to go with 1/8/12/16/20 for brevity:

Fire:

55/45/27/30/26

910:

50/37/39/36/33


That's... A little more all over the place. Fire is 5 points better against cloth (which makes up for a LOT of df difference, and makes it more acccurate), and 8 points better against leather. However, once you get to scale and above, shock has better AVD, which is more of a thematic thing, since it's supposed to be metal conducting the electricty.


Now yes, we also need to compare the fact that there's also stun shock and fire flares on these spells:

Fire flares = 60%
Stun Shock = 10% (If the Mage is 100/100 on air/water) or 15% (if the Mage is 200 on air)

Now... I haven't seen hard numbers, but I believe that the Fire damage is at least comparable to the air damage. At the very least, it's not enough to make up for the pretty big difference in damage over time you can expect from the proc rate difference.



Overall, is one better than the other in some circumstances? Absolutely. Against plate, the Shock will probably be much better. Against Cloth, not so much. And there's also the DoT aspect to take into account.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 854
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 09/15/2015 09:03 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Shenanigans!
}}
<br>
''> Question for you, Konacon. Is Plasma considered to be spiritual in nature? If not, I could see it fitting as a combination of Fire and Air.''

It's my understanding that Plasma is in fact considered to be spiritual in nature. This isn't a definitive yes or no, but my guess is that Plasma Cone is unlikely.

''> Krakii's idea of EVOKE 505 to produce the new void-crit bolt is worth repeating to see if it's feasible.''

I don't hate this idea, but there would definitely have to be an increased mana cost to come along with this.

''> I see that you mentioned that Steam and Acid will require some lore training to evoke. Are the Air, Earth, Fire, and Water versions available to all Wizards with no additional lore training? Does Lightning require 10 in Air and Water lores?''

- Steam = 10 Fire, 10 Water
- Acid = 10 Earth, 10 Water
- Lightning = 10 Air, 10 Water
- The other four standards require 20 ranks of their respective element to specify.
- Otherwise, the caster's attuned element will be used.

''> For elements with special effects on hit (Ignite, Acid Burn, Stun Shock) are the proc rates the same as when you cast their respective single target versions? ''

Currently they do not have differing proc rates when cast by Cone of Elements. If this ends up too heavily favoring certain elements over others, this is one of the things I would consider changing to try and bring them in line.

''> Looks like Cone is going to be super!''

I'm happy to see some people excited about this one. This update in particular has some special meaning to me, and it would be really awesome if people liked it.

~ Konacon
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 855
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 09/15/2015 09:10 AM PDT
| subject = Hand of Tonis (505) Evoke
}}
<br>
Hand of Tonis (505) has been updated such that EVOKE is now used to cast Tonis Bolt instead of basing it off of stance.

GameMaster Estild
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 856
| author = KEITHOBAD
| date = on 09/15/2015 09:14 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Shenanigans!
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|I'm happy to see some people excited about this one. This update in particular has some special meaning to me, and it would be really awesome if people liked it.
|-
|
|-
|~ Konacon
|}

Well I, for one, am excited about this change. Not that I didn't like the old cone, it's amazing, but being able to pick your element (bonus points for the acid/steam addition) is very cool to me and would have helped when I hunted storm giants!

A few people will likely complain about the loss of "all targets" that it used to have, but I think that got to be a bit ridiculous in invasion situations, so that's a balancing change I'm personally willing to accept. It still hits the number of critters I typically fight.

Where did we fall on player-friendlyness? Is this still going to zap people if they walk in at an inopportune time? I'm going to cast it either way, but it would be good to know :D

I think this is more what I was expecting of the ELR, tbh. Visible, consistent and useful additions to spells achievable at reasonable lore numbers.

So you've got one heckler on your side at least ;)
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 857
| author = TANDL
| date = on 09/15/2015 09:27 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Shenanigans!
}}
<br>
The separation of the player-friendly and not player-friendly versions via evoke was the only thing needed for me to personally get behind the new cone. I could say more as to why, but I think the fact that several people have already identified it as a stand-out among the ELR speaks for the merits all on it's own.

Taluric.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 858
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 09/15/2015 09:38 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Shenanigans!
}}
<br>
''>I'm happy to see some people excited about this one. This update in particular has some special meaning to me, and it would be really awesome if people liked it.''

Cone of Elements and 415 are my favorite parts of the ELR so far. Even more now that apparently we can EVOKE 518 to keep it player friendly.

Never got the uproar about not having unlimited targets. I can't even remember the last time I saw a good swarm outside of an invasion.

~ Methais
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 859
| author = ZENDADA
| date = on 09/15/2015 09:40 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Hand of Tonis (505) Evoke
}}
<br>
I notice that INCANT was removed. Was that intended?

The way I used 505 Hand of Tonis was stance off, inc 505, stance def, to disable whatever was right in front of me.

Now with EVOKE its prep 505, stance off, evoke target, stance def, where I have to define the target.

I can adjust but I liked the efficiency of INCANT.

Chad, player of a few
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 860
| author = BALEKIA
| date = on 09/15/2015 09:41 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Shenanigans!
}}
<br>
''>> Never got the uproar about not having unlimited targets. I can't even remember the last time I saw a good swarm outside of an invasion.''


I know my biggest complaint was the player unfriendly part of the announcement. At any practical Level (not a young wizard who uses it occasionally, but a wizard of a strength where it's a viable option) you should have the skills already to get enough targets for it to be worthwhile.

Also, I think we're not putting enough value on the fact that, if nothing else, the new EVOKE verb is taking off like wildfire and introducing a TON of potential growth into the game. When changing a spell involved removing the old one and having to re-balance the spell list, it was a much bigger issue, now that we have EVOKE GM's can just twist a spell a little bit without needing to completely redo the circle stack.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 861
| author = BALEKIA
| date = on 09/15/2015 09:50 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Hand of Tonis (505) Evoke
}}
<br>
''>> I can adjust but I liked the efficiency of INCANT.''


My understanding is that there's probably going to be a shakedown period where players and standard behavior need to be adjusted. Others have mentioned this, and I believe a few people are accidentally smacking themselves with spells when they EVOKE where they were used to auto-targeting with INCANT.

Odds are good we need a set of flags to say whether INCANT and EVOKE auto-target independently.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 862
| author = KEITHOBAD
| date = on 09/15/2015 09:50 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Hand of Tonis (505) Evoke
}}
<br>
Yeah, I hate to do this since it's gotta be annoying for whoever just coded this. But I agree, the convenience of incanting outweighs the control of being able to ward in offensive (which I would never do, anyway).

In fact, I never ever ever use this as a warding spell heh.
Air Bolts all the way, baby!
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 863
| author = DEANSMITH
| date = on 09/15/2015 09:52 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Shenanigans!
}}
<br>
''>Now yes, we also need to compare the fact that there's also stun shock and fire flares on these spells:''

Contemplar did mention that Stun Shock is applied based on Seed 5 EL:A Skill and not ranks.

Looking at maximizing it for damage, the best split for the Stun Shock effect is probably 94/108 Air/Water because this allows a 15% chance for activation at 16 seconds (+2 flares). The end result is that, without looking at numbers and assuming all damage/stuns are equal, the Stun Shock effect goes off about a quarter as much but flares for twice as much. So Ignite would be about twice as powerful as Stun Shock in this case.

I don't really think that that is enough to bridge the gap between the general effectiveness of Major Shock vs. Minor Fire.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 864
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 09/15/2015 09:54 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Hand of Tonis (505) Evoke
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|BALEKIA
|-
|My understanding is that there's probably going to be a shakedown period where players and standard behavior need to be adjusted. Others have mentioned this, and I believe a few people are accidentally smacking themselves with spells when they EVOKE where they were used to auto-targeting with INCANT.
|-
|Odds are good we need a set of flags to say whether INCANT and EVOKE auto-target independently.
|}

Yeah, we probably are going to need to create a player flag to let their INCANT auto-EVOKE spells.

GameMaster Estild
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 865
| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 09/15/2015 09:54 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Hand of Tonis (505) Evoke
}}
<br>
''>Odds are good we need a set of flags to say whether INCANT and EVOKE auto-target independently.''

I also think that evoking with no target should act like incant instead of self-targeting, although I haven't had the chance to test if it does that already if someone could please clarify, I don't have game access at the moment.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 866
| author = BALEKIA
| date = on 09/15/2015 09:58 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Hand of Tonis (505) Evoke
}}
<br>
''>> Yeah, we probably are going to need to create a player flag to let their INCANT auto-EVOKE spells.''

Much as I LOVE the new Evoke.. we may have to flip it backwards.. and allow EVOKE to Auto INCANT.

The reason is that if you have a flag so that INCANT always EVOKES, then you run into an issue because it becomes difficult to switch back and forth on the fly, and for immolation that might really matter. If instead you can somehow bind the Auto Target aspect to EVOKE rather than INCANT, then the person can INCANT when they want standard, EVOKE when they want alternate, and get auto-targeting in both situations.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 867
| author = DEANSMITH
| date = on 09/15/2015 10:00 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Hand of Tonis (505) Evoke
}}
<br>
''>I also think that evoking with no target should act like incant instead of self-targeting, although I haven't had the chance to test if it does that already if someone could please clarify, I don't have game access at the moment.''

''>>prep 903''
''>Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Water...''
''>Your spell is ready.''
''>>evoke''
''>You gesture.''
''>You hurl a seething blast of steam at yourself!''

It does self target.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 868
| author = ZENDADA
| date = on 09/15/2015 10:02 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Hand of Tonis (505) Evoke
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|I also think that evoking with no target should act like incant instead of self-targeting, although I haven't had the chance to test if it does that already if someone could please clarify, I don't have game access at the moment.
|}

Open evoke targets yourself currently.

Chad, player of a few
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 869
| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 09/15/2015 10:08 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Hand of Tonis (505) Evoke
}}
<br>
''>Open evoke targets yourself currently.''

BOO, HISS

::THROW TOMATOES:: ::DRY OUT KONACON'S LAWN::

:)
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 870
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 09/15/2015 10:14 AM PDT
| subject = ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!
}}
<br>
Hi everybody! No shenanigans, because this is complicated and I want to do my best to get it right!

First off, Cone of Lightning has been changed to Cone of Elements! Here are the details, and I'll be around for Q&A most of the day!

The spell can be cast using CAST or EVOKE:
- When CAST, the spell will be player friendly and hit up to (2 + (Elemental Mana Control Skill / 75)) targets.
- When EVOKED, the spell will be group friendly and hit up to (5 + (Elemental Mana Control Skill / 50)) targets.
-- Also when EVOKED, the spell will hit hidden/invisible targets. On a successful hit, the target will fall out of hiding/invisibility.

When casting this spell, the caster's attunement will be used to determine the bolt that is hurled out by this spell. There is also the option to specify the type of element the caster would like to use if they meet the lore requirements for that type (e.g. 'CAST COLD'):

- Fire attuned Cone will use Minor Fire (906).
-- 'CAST/EVOKE FIRE' requires 20 ranks of Elemental Lore, Fire.

- Water attuned Cone will use Minor Cold (1709).
-- 'CAST/EVOKE COLD' requires 20 ranks of Elemental Lore, Water.

- Earth attuned Cone will use Hurl Boulder (510).
-- 'CAST/EVOKE EARTH' requires 20 ranks of Elemental Lore, Earth.

- Air attuned Cone will use a new vacuum bolt that is currently only attainable with Cone of Elements.
-- 'CAST/EVOKE AIR' requires 20 ranks of Elemental Lore, Air.

- Lightning attuned Cone will use Major Shock (910).
-- 'CAST/EVOKE LIGHTNING' requires 10 ranks of Elemental Lore, Air and 10 ranks of Elemental Lore, Water.

- Minor Acid (904) is not available through an unspecified cast. It is lore cast only.
-- 'CAST/EVOKE ACID' requires 10 ranks of Elemental Lore, Earth and 10 ranks of Elemental Lore, Water.

- Minor Steam (1707) is not available through an unspecified cast. It is lore cast only.
-- 'CAST/EVOKE STEAM' requires 10 ranks of Elemental Lore, Fire and 10 ranks of Elemental Lore, Water.

- Minor Water (903) is not available through an unspecified cast. It is lore cast only.
-- 'CAST/EVOKE WATER' requires 20 ranks of Elemental Lore, Water.

Questions? Comments? Logs of you trying this out? I'd love to hear anything you have to say about all of this. I hope you all like it!

~ Konacon
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 871
| author = GS4-RETSER
| date = on 09/15/2015 10:23 AM PDT
| subject = Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!
}}
<br>
What lores do we need for cone of Konacon?



-Retser-
Icemule Guru
Halfling Guru
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 872
| author = DEANSMITH
| date = on 09/15/2015 10:25 AM PDT
| subject = Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!
}}
<br>
Thanks, CONEacon!
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 873
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 09/15/2015 10:28 AM PDT
| subject = Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!
}}
<br>
'EVOKE/CAST WATER' for Minor Water (903) has now been added, requiring 20 ranks of Elemental Lore, Water. (The original announcement was also modified to reflect this.)

~ Konacon
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 874
| author = MOURNE
| date = on 09/15/2015 10:36 AM PDT
| subject = Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!
}}
<br>
My weezard needs a few more levels to appreciate this one properly, but your earlier logs looked like great fun, and the huge range of elements available makes me drool. Thanks!

---
With great effort you combine the value of your two bloodscrip, leaving you with a single parchment bloodscrip valued at 2112.
You think to yourself, "Another toy that helped destroy the elder race of man..."
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 875
| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 09/15/2015 10:38 AM PDT
| subject = Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!
}}
<br>
I might have to hunt bandits to see how it works with my MRs and scrolls
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 876
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 09/15/2015 11:10 AM PDT
| subject = Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!
}}
<br>
This spell is fun. I attuned back to random for a while just for the fireworks.

~ Methais
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 878
| author = TANDL
| date = on 09/15/2015 11:14 AM PDT
| subject = Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!
}}
<br>
So, what's the new mnemonic?

Tal.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 879
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 09/15/2015 11:16 AM PDT
| subject = Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!
}}
<br>
''> So, what's the new mnemonic?''

CONEELE

~ Konacon
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 880
| author = TANDL
| date = on 09/15/2015 11:20 AM PDT
| subject = Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!
}}
<br>
Now, just to make sure I understand this right... random attunement will use any of the base spell effects (not listed as lore only) at random. Being actively fire attuned will automatically use fire, even without the lore. Being anything but fire attuned, and having 20 ranks of fire lore, allows the fire version to be cast?

Tal.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 881
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 09/15/2015 11:25 AM PDT
| subject = Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!
}}
<br>
''> Now, just to make sure I understand this right... random attunement will use any of the base spell effects (not listed as lore only) at random. Being actively fire attuned will automatically use fire, even without the lore. Being anything but fire attuned, and having 20 ranks of fire lore, allows the fire version to be cast?''

This is correct. Here's the process just in case that helps:

- Check to see if a specific element was requested. If it was, check to see if they have the required lore. If they do, use it. If they don't, let them know and move to the next line.
- Check to see if they're attuned to anything. If they are and it's not random, use it (Water attunement uses COLD in this case). Otherwise, move to the next line.
- Pick a random element from AIR, COLD, FIRE, EARTH, and LIGHTNING.

~ Konacon
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 882
| author = TANDL
| date = on 09/15/2015 11:29 AM PDT
| subject = Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!
}}
<br>
Your original post was clear on the matter, I'm just updating the info for the spell and wanted to be 100% sure I wasn't being dense somehow (it happens).

Tal.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 884
| author = KEITHOBAD
| date = on 09/15/2015 12:50 PM PDT
| subject = Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!
}}
<br>
Hey! So we found a work-around today to make the EVOKE version work similar to INCANTing. (IE: you can put it on a macro).

Use the boot-cast.

So, for me, it's
PREP 518
EVOKE AIR BOOT

Or in a macro: \xprep 518\revoke air boot\r

This will clear the room with the group-friendly version.

Cheers!

[EDIT: reposted to switch 'cast' to 'evoke' whoopsies!]
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 885
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 09/15/2015 12:58 PM PDT
| subject = Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|KEITHOBAD
|-
|Hey! So we found a work-around today to make the EVOKE version work similar to INCANTing. (IE: you can put it on a macro).
|-
|Use the boot-cast.
|-
|So, for me, it's
|-
|PREP 518
|-
|EVOKE AIR BOOT
|-
|Or in a macro: \xprep 518\revoke air boot\r
|-
|This will clear the room with the group-friendly version.
|-
|Cheers!
|}

What am I missing? How is this different than just "evoke air"?

GameMaster Estild
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 886
| author = AUDIOSERF
| date = on 09/15/2015 01:04 PM PDT
| subject = Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!
}}
<br>
Unless I'm mistaken the issue is that Evoke lacks the auto-target capability that Incant offers for attack spells.

IE - inc 505 will use the CS version on a creature in the room
evoke 505 will shoot a 505 bolt at yourself, won't auto-target the same creature in the room

IMO, Evoke should act just like Incant, but for the alternate version of an applicable spell.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 887
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 09/15/2015 01:20 PM PDT
| subject = Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|AUDIOSERF
|-
|Unless I'm mistaken the issue is that Evoke lacks the auto-target capability that Incant offers for attack spells.
|-
|IE - inc 505 will use the CS version on a creature in the room
|-
|evoke 505 will shoot a 505 bolt at yourself, won't auto-target the same creature in the room
|-
|IMO, Evoke should act just like Incant, but for the alternate version of an applicable spell.
|}

You don't need to target 518 and doing so doesn't provide any benefit though. For 505, it's just prep 505, evoke <target>.

GameMaster Estild
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 888
| author = TANDL
| date = on 09/15/2015 01:52 PM PDT
| subject = Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!
}}
<br>
So last question, I think. All of the 'spells' used within Cone have DFs modified to match 910 and are further increased based on their specific elemental lores associated with the effects?

I'm 99% sure this has already been stated to be true, but I'm having trouble finding the post(s) that said so and I want to put it in the ELR saved posts page.

Tal.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 889
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 09/15/2015 01:59 PM PDT
| subject = Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>So last question, I think. All of the 'spells' used within Cone have DFs modified to match 910 and are further increased based on their specific elemental lores associated with the effects?''

Pretty sure the spells use their normal DF. i.e. Cone of Fire uses 906's DF, as opposed to casting 906 with 910's DF.

~ Methais
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 890
| author = SPYRIDONM1
| date = on 09/15/2015 01:59 PM PDT
| subject = Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>So last question, I think. All of the 'spells' used within Cone have DFs modified to match 910 and are further increased based on their specific elemental lores associated with the effects?''

''>I'm 99% sure this has already been stated to be true, but I'm having trouble finding the post(s) that said so and I want to put it in the ELR saved posts page. - Tal.''

That's not correct. They each use their own damage tables.

Mark
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 891
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 09/15/2015 02:02 PM PDT
| subject = Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!
}}
<br>
''> All of the 'spells' used within Cone have DFs modified to match 910 and are further increased based on their specific elemental lores associated with the effects?''

Hate to be the bearer of bad new, but no. Quite literally it is casting the actual spell (903, 906, etc.) which means that each spell/bolt uses its own DF, Lores, etc.

~ Konacon
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 893
| author = TANDL
| date = on 09/15/2015 02:13 PM PDT
| subject = Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!
}}
<br>
That works perfectly well for me. I'd rather ask and get a wrong assumption corrected than assume and be wrong continuously.

Tal.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 894
| author = GAROFALOA
| date = on 09/15/2015 02:40 PM PDT
| subject = Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!
}}
<br>
Is it going to automatically cast to the element to which you are attuned? Didn't seem quit clear whether it will or not in the announce
If not....could we add that functionality
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 895
| author = GAROFALOA
| date = on 09/15/2015 02:42 PM PDT
| subject = Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!
}}
<br>
That also means I get 906's Chance to ignite things??? Awesome!
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 896
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 09/15/2015 02:42 PM PDT
| subject = Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!
}}
<br>
''> Is it going to automatically cast to the element to which you are attuned?''

Yes. It automatically casts as the element you are attuned to if you don't specify an element.

~ Konacon
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 897
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 09/15/2015 02:42 PM PDT
| subject = Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!
}}
<br>
''> That also means I get 906's Chance to ignite things??? Awesome!''

Yep! Set the whole room on fire!

~ Konacon
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 898
| author = GAROFALOA
| date = on 09/15/2015 02:55 PM PDT
| subject = Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!
}}
<br>
All I have to say is....reading is fundamental. I saw it after I posted. Next release: targeted meteor swarm??? ;)
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 899
| author = ZENDADA
| date = on 09/15/2015 03:26 PM PDT
| subject = Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!
}}
<br>
This is such a great change to 518! Really. Not only is it better it allows wizards of all elements, and even mixed elements, some flavor, not to mention the true elementalist has a Cone for every occasion.

Looking at the hybrids, dual lores unlocking different flares, there are some spaces that could be filled. Here is a table of lore mixing as it stands.

{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|
| Air
| Fire
| Water
| Earth
| Cold
|
|-
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|-
|Air
| Air (Vacuum)
|
| Lightning
|
|
|
|-
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|-
|Fire
|
| Fire
| Steam
|
|
|
|-
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|-
|Water
| Lightning
| Steam
| Water
| Acid
|
|
|-
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|-
|Earth
|
|
| Acid
| Earth (Vibe)
|
|
|-
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|-
|Cold
|
|
|
|
| Cold (Ice)
|
|}

Cold is the odd one out. No idea what to do with this. It's just something a water mage has access to that other magi don't. Thats cool.

To fill in the other blanks I propose using some other already implemented flares. My proposal for those flares are italicized in the chart below.

{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|
| Air
| Fire
| Water
| Earth
| Cold
|
|-
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|-
|Air
| Air (Vacuum)
| ''Plasma''
| Lightning
| ''Unbalance''
|
|
|-
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|-
|Fire
| ''Plasma''
| Fire
| Steam
| ''Disintigration''
|
|
|-
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|-
|Water
| Lightning
| Steam
| Water
| Acid
|
|
|-
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|-
|Earth
| ''Unbalance''
| ''Disintigration''
| Acid
| Earth (Vibe)
|
|
|-
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|-
|Cold
|
|
|
|
| Cold (Ice)
|
|}


Chad, player of a few
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 900
| author = LORDKRIP
| date = on 09/15/2015 03:28 PM PDT
| subject = Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!
}}
<br>
Beautiful.



Peace cannot be kept by force; it can only be achieved by understanding. - Albert Einstein
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 901
| author = OBSERVER
| date = on 09/15/2015 03:31 PM PDT
| subject = Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!
}}
<br>
I've been partial to the suggestion of a sticky magma bolt for earth and fire.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 902
| author = ZENDADA
| date = on 09/15/2015 03:35 PM PDT
| subject = Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|I've been partial to the suggestion of a sticky magma bolt for earth and fire.
|-
|
|-
|OBSERVER
|}

Myself as well. I'd like Sandstorm as the air/earth hybrid. I tried to stay within the confines of what is already established.

Chad, player of a few
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 903
| author = TANDL
| date = on 09/15/2015 04:24 PM PDT
| subject = Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!
}}
<br>
Next question, Snow Crones are listed as being able to reflect cone of lightning. Are they able to reflect cone of elements lightning variant? What about the rest of them (fire, acid, etc)?

Tal.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 904
| author = KEITHOBAD
| date = on 09/15/2015 04:41 PM PDT
| subject = Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!
}}
<br>
So I did some testing, (at great personal risk, I might add) and it looks like reflector critters like storm giants reflect all version of 518. I kind of thought that would be one of the main benefits of choosing the element.


{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|What am I missing? How is this different than just "evoke air"?
|-
|
|-
|GameMaster Estild
|}

@#$! I think I got trolled. People were saying it was casting on the wizard (similar to how 505 now works).
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 905
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 09/15/2015 04:57 PM PDT
| subject = Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!
}}
<br>
Still catching up on the posts from the last day and a half but this looks like fun. Any chance to have some sort of mechanism to set a preferred element so it doesn't need to be selected each time it is cast (outside of elemental attunement I mean). Alternatively, any chance the element could be pre-selected as part of the prep phrase (e.g prep 518 fire)?

Proposed process:

- Check to see if a specific element was requested. If it was, check to see if they have the required lore. If they do, use it. If they don't, let them know and move to the next line.
- Check to see if a specific element has been set via SET coneelement (or prep 518 element). If it has, check to see if they have the required lore. If they do, use it. If they don't, let them know and move to the next line.
- Check to see if they're attuned to anything. If they are and it's not random, use it (Water attunement uses COLD in this case). Otherwise, move to the next line.
- Pick a random element from AIR, COLD, FIRE, EARTH, and LIGHTNING.

-- Robert

Fluke in the programming, or just your average everyday Konacode? ~ Konacon
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 906
| author = BALEKIA
| date = on 09/15/2015 05:21 PM PDT
| subject = Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>> Cold is the odd one out. No idea what to do with this. It's just something a water mage has access to that other magi don't. Thats cool.''

The short answer... Cold is the bolt that makes sense for the power of the spell, it can stand against 906, 910, and 510. 903 is actually a little too weak for this spell, when considered in isolation. Now, obviously, because cold is always a choice, the spell itself (518) is just great, and having water as an option for OTHER reasons (to set up 910 mostly) can only increase flexibility (in other words, no request here to make the Water bolt in this stronger, because the inclusion is honestly gravy).

I'm also hoping that over time the hybrid lores can be filled out. It could be interesting to see what happens if a Bard somehow gained reason to go 75/25 split or something with Fire, Earth, or Water.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 907
| author = THROGG
| date = on 09/15/2015 06:54 PM PDT
| subject = Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!
}}
<br>
I'm confused. OK, the old incant no longer works as it used to, yes? What is the format for casting a spell at a critter? Do I have to actually prep a spell first? Do I have to name a target? If I want to cast 906 at a frost giant, how do I command that to happen?
Prep 906\r evoke\r
or maybe just
evoke 906\r
or would it be
prep 906\r evoke giant\r
What happens if I still use Incant? Incant 906\r targets myself?
Cone of elements ... prep & cast vs prep & evoke? Or just evoke? One command is player friendly and one is only group friendly?
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 908
| author = KEITHOBAD
| date = on 09/15/2015 07:08 PM PDT
| subject = Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!
}}
<br>
906 hasn't changed, you can still incant 906.

If you incant 518 it will:
1) Check if you're attuned,
if so-use that element,
else-use random(air,ice,fire,rock,electric)
The new max number of targets for incanted version is (2 + (Elemental Mana Control Skill / 75)) and is player friendly.


If you prep 518 and then EVOKE
it behaves exactly the same way but with a target count of (5 + (Elemental Mana Control Skill / 50)) and is player unfriendly. Fine for groups though.

Now if you want to use an element that you cannot attune, you need to prep 518, EVOKE <element>.
This has a requirement for each element described in the first post.

Hopefully that helped, this is a pretty complicated spell!
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 909
| author = KEITHOBAD
| date = on 09/15/2015 07:09 PM PDT
| subject = Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>>Now if you want to use an element that you cannot attune, you need to prep 518, EVOKE .''
This has a requirement for each element described in the first post.


Dernit I should have said "you need to prep 518, then EVOKE or CAST <element>"
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 910
| author = ERYKK2
| date = on 09/15/2015 07:39 PM PDT
| subject = Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|AUDIOSERF
|-
|Unless I'm mistaken the issue is that Evoke lacks the auto-target capability that Incant offers for attack spells.
|-
|IE - inc 505 will use the CS version on a creature in the room
|-
|evoke 505 will shoot a 505 bolt at yourself, won't auto-target the same creature in the room
|-
|IMO, Evoke should act just like Incant, but for the alternate version of an applicable spell.
|}

{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|You don't need to target 518 and doing so doesn't provide any benefit though. For 505, it's just prep 505, evoke .
|-
|
|-
|GameMaster Estild
|}

I think the request is to:

prep 505
evoke
And it auto-targets a creature in the room.

So you don't have to evoke <target>, you can just evoke, without killing yourself.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 911
| author = BALEKIA
| date = on 09/15/2015 07:52 PM PDT
| subject = Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>> So you don't have to evoke , you can just evoke, without killing yourself.''

This item has been acknowledged. New ELR stuff is now on I think four different sub-boards, so it's hard to keep track, but the issue has been recognized as something that needs some sort of fix.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 912
| author = WINTERMYST
| date = on 09/15/2015 09:21 PM PDT
| subject = Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!
}}
<br>
I sure hope evoke get's fixed in stormfront those of us that have bad arthritis and use the combat window would really appreciate this

You also see the Shilarra disk etched with the image of a Vathor
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 913
| author = PCOFFEY77
| date = on 09/16/2015 02:53 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Hand of Tonis (505) Evoke
}}
<br>
''>Yeah, we probably are going to need to create a player flag to let their INCANT auto-EVOKE spells.''

Please do this!!
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 914
| author = AMMINAR
| date = on 09/16/2015 12:50 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Hand of Tonis (505) Evoke
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|Yeah, we probably are going to need to create a player flag to let their INCANT auto-EVOKE spells.
|-
|GameMaster Estild
|}

Personally I've never been 100% happy with the CHANNELINCANT flag. With or without this flag, you end up typing an extra line to switch between versions of the spell. It's convenient if you have an overwhelming default, but it seems like wizards are especially likely to be more switching between these new versions, and no matter how you slice it, it's an extra line -- either switching the flag or prep/casting (and specifying a target).

Might I suggest an alternative to the flag solution -- a new verb? I would suggest INCANTEVOKE or simply IEVOKE -- automatically prepare and cast an EVOKEd spell at a default target just like INCANT.

(And if you go this route, could spiritual folks get ICHANNEL as well?)
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 915
| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 09/16/2015 02:58 PM PDT
| subject = Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>Hate to be the bearer of bad new, but no. Quite literally it is casting the actual spell (903, 906, etc.) which means that each spell/bolt uses its own DF, Lores, etc.''

Besides the damage factor increase, does any other lore benefit carry over?

Specifically, if you EVOKE ACID with 30 ranks of water lore, and 10 ranks of earth, will it use Major Acid?

10 ranks of earth also provides an acid burn chance in Minor Acid, does that carry over in either cast acid or evoke acid (evoke only if the Major Acid does not carry over)?
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 916
| author = KEITHOBAD
| date = on 09/16/2015 03:06 PM PDT
| subject = Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!
}}
<br>
It won't switch to major acid (which would be amazing for a room full of critters) but it will gain any bonuses that spell would have. 906 can cause burn, 903 soak, 910 shock stun, 904 acid DoTs, etc..
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 917
| author = BALEKIA
| date = on 09/16/2015 03:13 PM PDT
| subject = Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>> It won't switch to major acid (which would be amazing for a room full of critters)''

Amazing, and possibly a bit TOO powerful, with enough MOC you'd be looking at some pretty serious boltage.

I could get behind the new Elemental Storm in the 925 slot, that does Cone of Elements with Ball versions. Make it so!
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 918
| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 09/16/2015 03:14 PM PDT
| subject = Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!
}}
<br>
Thanks, Keith. I would love to see these things in full action, like an evoke water followed up with an evoke lightning. Do it now while you can rapid fire!
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 919
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 09/16/2015 04:13 PM PDT
| subject = A Hasty proposal (506)...
}}
<br>
Problem statement:

- Haste has been identified by the powers that be to be 'too powerful'. Which elements/usage of it are too powerful has not been clearly stated or identified by the development team.
- Warmages are expected to still be viable post changes. It isn't clear if this is expected to be via haste or some new mechanisms that have not yet been revealed.

Assumptions (mine):

- It is 100% up time cast on other and ease of 100% up time cast on self that are of primary concern.
- Warmages will still be viable via haste usage post spell updates.
- Given the ELR spells released to date, it seems logical that Elemental Lore, Earth is the expected lore training for warmages.
- Haste should still be a useful and class defining spell for wizards post spell updates.

Proposal:

506-Haste

Invoking the magic of this spell distorts time around the target. To the recipient, the world seems to slow down, allowing them to react more quickly than naturally possible. The target's roundtime will be lower than normal. How much lower depends on the skill of the caster as well as the roundtime of the action being attempted.

Note: This spell reduces the roundtime, it does not remove it. Regardless of how much faster the target is able to move, they will never have a 0 roundtime. There will always be at least a 1 second RT. (Note: spell would function similar to as it does today but without the bonuses for Elt Lore, Air thresholds and modified MjE thresholds).

Final RT = (RT - [1 + X ]) * (75 - Y)%
X = Major Elemental Bonus; Increases by +1 at 24 ranks, 51 ranks and 100 ranks
Y = Major Elemental Spells Known / 3

The base duration of this spell is 30 seconds increased by 5 seconds for each SEED 8 Ranks in Elemental Lore, Air.
At 30 Ranks of Elemental Lore, Air the caster gains the ability to cast a reduced duration version of the spell on others where the duration is 15 seconds, increased by 5 seconds for each SEED 8 Ranks in Elemental Lore, Air (so at the 30 ranks required to cast the spell on others the base duration would be 30 seconds).

Unfortunately, the power of the spell does not fuel all of the extra energy needed to operate at an accelerated rate. As such there will be a cooldown recovery period at the expiration of the spell during which the spell cannot be recast on the recipient, equivalent to the number of seconds that the spell recipient spent hasted. Training in Elemental Lore, Earth can partially, ''or even entirely'', negate this effect. 10 seconds is reduced from the cool down period for each SEED 8 Ranks in Elemental Lore, Earth training that the spell ''recipient'' possesses. Note, if the spell is terminated early (STOPped or Dispeled) then the cooldown/recovery period would be equal to the actual number of seconds spent hasted vs. the full duration of the spell had it note been terminated early.

Examples:

1) A wizard with 0 ranks in Elt Lore, Air and 0 ranks in Elt Lore, Earth can only self cast the spell for 30 seconds duration with a 30 seconds cooldown period.

2) A wizard with 0 ranks in Elt Lore, Air and 27 ranks in Elt Lore, Earth can only self cast the spell for 30 seconds duration with a 0 second cooldown period.

3) A wizard with 63 ranks in Elt Lore, Air and 63 ranks in Elt Lore, Earth can self cast the spell for 60 seconds duration with a 0 second cooldown period. They can also cast the spell on others for a 45 second duration (cooldown period will depend on the targets Elt Lore, Earth training).

4) A wizard with 109 ranks in Elt Lore, Air and 93 ranks in Elt Lore, Earth can self cast the spell for 75 seconds duration with a 0 second cooldown period. They can also cast the spell on other for a 60 second duration (cooldown period will depend on the targets Elt Lore, Earth training).

Notes:

This is a slightly weaker version of the current haste (in terms of direct RT reduction for short durations) that has a higher mana cost to maintain (double the current spell base on the base 30 seconds duration) but which has a (reasonably) low entry threshold for continuous use for warmages who choose to train in Elt Lore, Earth. The spell should still perform well in a utility and defensive capacity for wizards or others. The overall haste up time can be scaled up via training in Elt Lore, Air, and the cool down period can be scaled down via training in Elt Lore, Earth based on the specific wizards desire. There is definitely room for some tweaking but I was fairly pleased with the fairly low entry point for warmages who wanted 100% up time and how it scaled overall for someone very dedicated in this training path to be slightly improved (self cast) vs the current version of the spell. I additionally liked that it allows the wizards to establish (based on lore training) their cooldown time to something similar to what has been proposed by the Dev team down to 100% up time.

Thought, suggestions, tweaks?

-- Robert aka Faulkil

Fluke in the programming, or just your average everyday Konacode? ~ Konacon
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 920
| author = ERYKK2
| date = on 09/16/2015 10:41 PM PDT
| subject = Re: A Hasty proposal (506)...
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|Final RT = (RT - [1 + X ]) * (75 - Y)%
|-
|X = Major Elemental Bonus; Increases by +1 at 24 ranks, 51 ranks and 100 ranks
|-
|Y = Major Elemental Spells Known / 3
|}

Base RT=5
1 + X (X = 0 because 6 ranks) (5 - 1 = 4)
1 + X (X = +1 because 24 ranks) (5 - 2 = 3)
1 + X (X = +2 because 51 ranks) (5 - 3 = 2)

Y = 6/3 @ 6 ranks = 2
Y = 24/3 @ 24 ranks = 8
Y = 51/3 @ 51 ranks = 17

75 - 2 = 73
75 - 8 = 67
75 - 17 = 58

4 * 73% (at 6 ranks) = 2.92
3 * 67% (at 24 ranks) = 2.01
2 * 58% (at 51 ranks) = 1.16

Is my math correct? So no change in RT between 6 ranks and 51 ranks?

{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|2) A wizard with 0 ranks in Elt Lore, Air and 27 ranks in Elt Lore, Earth can only self cast the spell for 30 seconds duration with a 0 second cooldown period.
|}

I think I could be ok with this. It really slows down low level warmages, because of mana and duration. Mid levels will see an increase in mana cost, but it should be doable.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 921
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 09/17/2015 06:33 AM PDT
| subject = Re: A Hasty proposal (506)...
}}
<br>
''>> Is my math correct? So no change in RT between 6 ranks and 51 ranks?''

Depending on if we Trunc() or Round(), let's say Trunc() then you would actually see a drop at 27 ranks for Bast RT = 5.

Base RT=5
1 + X (X = +1 because 27 ranks) (5 - 2 = 3)
Y = 27/3 @ 27 ranks = 9
75 - 9 = 66
3 * 66% (at 27 ranks) = 1.98

The thresholds could be adjusted a bit to get the desired results. It might also be worth adding a fourth threshold for MjE ranks since we lose 3 from the original formula (they were provided by training in Elt Lore, Air but I re-purposed this lore for the variable spell duration) and I only added one back for MjE ranks (over the original formula).

-- Robert

Fluke in the programming, or just your average everyday Konacode? ~ Konacon
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 922
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 09/17/2015 10:25 AM PDT
| subject = Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
Chromatic Circle (502) has been released. When cast, a target is surrounded by a circle of elements and must ward against the spell. Failure to do will result in elemental damage. The caster's attunement determines the type of element used. Based upon the element used, the caster's Elemental Lore training will then cause the target to be vulnerable (a Defensive Strength penalty) to follow up bolt attacks of the same element. Specifically, a fire attuned wizard will use their Elemental Lore, Fire training to lower the target's DS against Minor Fire (906) and Major Fire (908). The DS penalty is calculated as (2 * seed 1 summation), such that at 55 lore ranks, it results in -20 DS for the target. The vulnerability lasts for 15 seconds or 2 attacks. In addition, weapon attacks enhanced by the Elemental Blade (411) spell that also match the same element as 502 will also cause the target to suffer the same DS penalty.

GameMaster Estild
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 923
| author = CIRCADIANZEBRA
| date = on 09/17/2015 10:34 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|In addition, weapon attacks enhanced by the Elemental Blade (411) spell that also match the same element as 502 will also cause the target to suffer the same DS penalty.
|-
|GameMaster Estild
|}

Ooh, a DS push down for bolting and swinging? I like it.

Question: is this for anyone swinging an e-bladed weapon? So group hunting could be enhanced by this combo, or just for the wizard that cast Chromatic Circle?

Also, is there a way to force away from the attuned element at a certain lore threshold?
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 924
| author = BALEKIA
| date = on 09/17/2015 10:37 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
Is this Lightning attuned compatible for the DS penalty on follow-up?
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 925
| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 09/17/2015 10:55 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
Will the alchemy recipes for Spell Store transfer to Chromatic Circle?
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 926
| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 09/17/2015 11:06 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
further request for Spell Store to be revived and moved to the Arcane Circle



KIDDING! :D
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 927
| author = BALEKIA
| date = on 09/17/2015 11:12 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
''>> further request for Spell Store to be revived and moved to the Arcane Circle''

I was debating trying to come up with an angry rant about how having Spell Store removed completely destroys my play style, and how I'm angry and disappointed.

Unfortunately, the spell is SO dead weight that I got nothing.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 928
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 09/17/2015 11:21 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
''>> Chromatic Circle (502) has been released ~Esdtild''

Thanks for creating such a useful spell for one of our empty spell slots!

-- Robert

Fluke in the programming, or just your average everyday Konacode? ~ Konacon
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 929
| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 09/17/2015 11:24 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
''>In addition, weapon attacks enhanced by the Elemental Blade (411) spell that also match the same element as 502 will also cause the target to suffer the same DS penalty.''

suggestion for any flaring weapon of the same element to cause the DS penalty. Maybe this can be unlocked with lore ranks.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 930
| author = LALAKERCLAN
| date = on 09/17/2015 12:21 PM PDT
| subject = Re: 502 Feedback and Questions
}}
<br>
I spent about an hour testing 502 out. Fortunately (I'm a fence-sitter) I am not attuned to a particular element, so I got to see all of the various elemental types.

1. Elemental lores seem to help quite a bit in terms of the crit damage. I have 38 ranks of fire lore and no other lores. For example, compare:

You gesture at a skeletal lord.
A skeletal lord is suddenly surrounded by a circle of shifting stones.
CS: +257 - TD: +141 + CvA: +1 + d100: +67 == +184
Warding failed!
The shifting stones quickly orbit the lord, causing 33 points of damage!
... 10 points of damage!
Light blow to right leg.
The shifting stones leave the lord off balance and exposed to the elements.

To:

A skeletal lord is suddenly surrounded by a circle of flickering flames.
CS: +257 - TD: +135 + CvA: +1 + d100: +55 == +178
Warding failed!
The flickering flames quickly swirl around the lord, causing 35 points of damage!
... 25 points of damage!
The flickering flames leave the lord off balance and exposed to the elements.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

My "best" crit:

A skeletal lord is suddenly surrounded by a circle of flickering flames.
CS: +257 - TD: +138 + CvA: +1 + d100: +85 == +205
Warding failed!
The flickering flames quickly swirl around the lord, causing 35 points of damage!
... 70 points of damage!
Back burnt to the bone. Smoke curls up from what's left of a skeletal lord.
You hear a sound like a weeping child as a white glow separates itself from the skeletal lord's body as it rises, disappearing into the heavens.
The skeletal lord falls to the ground motionless.

Conclusion: elemental lores are a key component of the damage of this spell.

2. CHANNEL does not work.

3. Offensive stance does not seem to help.

4. Having an open hand does not seem to help.

5. The DS pushdown is neat and is a very useful single-target opener where you can't fail to ward the target. A successful cast of 502 means the target is stunned and gets a DS pushdown...seems to me to be basically the same as prone. A 502 followed by 906 was more or less just as good as 410 - 906, for less cost. If you can fail your warding, obviously, you're better off just using e-wave before bolting.

6. Is the initial "damage" capped? At any particular number?

7. Can consideration be given to allow a mage to use an element to which they are not "attuned" given appropriate lore training?

8. Can different combinations of lores allow for different crit types? For example, 20 earth/20 water allows 502 acid? 20 water/20 fire allows 502 steam, etc.? Maybe through the use of the evoke verb?
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 931
| author = ASHRAAM
| date = on 09/17/2015 12:25 PM PDT
| subject = Re: 502 Feedback and Questions
}}
<br>
''>> Conclusion: elemental lores are a key component of the damage of this spell.''

''>> 2. CHANNEL does not work. ''

''>> 3. Offensive stance does not seem to help.''


When and where were you testing this? I just went and did the same thing with my wizard and the results oppose what you're saying. I was able to use channel. Stance offensive seemed to net better damage with lower end-rolls.

''>502 pra''
[voodoo]>prepare 502
[voodoo]>cast pra
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Chromatic Circle...
Your spell is ready.
''>''
You gesture at a pra'eda.
A pra'eda is suddenly surrounded by a circle of crystalline ice shards.
CS: +215 - TD: +109 + CvA: +25 + d100: +54 == +185
Warding failed!
The crystalline ice shards quickly orbit the pra'eda, causing 34 points of damage!
... 20 points of damage!
Blast of cold air to left knee causes a polar knee cap!
The pra'eda is stunned!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
(Forcing stance down to guarded)
''>502 pra''
[voodoo]>prepare 502
[voodoo]>cast pra
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Chromatic Circle...
Your spell is ready.
''>''
You gesture at a pra'eda.
A pra'eda is suddenly surrounded by a circle of flickering flames.
CS: +215 - TD: +109 + CvA: +25 + d100: +3 == +134
Warding failed!
The flickering flames quickly swirl around the pra'eda, causing 17 points of damage!
... 15 points of damage!
Burst of flames to left eye incinerates eyelid. Gruesome.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>stance off''
You are now in an offensive stance.
''>prep 502''
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Chromatic Circle...
Your spell is ready.
''>chan pra''
You channel at a pra'eda.
A pra'eda is suddenly surrounded by a small whirlwind.
CS: +215 - TD: +109 + CvA: +25 + d100: +33 == +164
Warding failed!
The whirlwind quickly swirls around the pra'eda, causing 35 points of damage!
... 25 points of damage!
Ribs shatter and blood fills lungs!
The whirlwind leaves the pra'eda off balance and exposed to the elements.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
Roundtime: 3 sec.
R>prep 502
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Chromatic Circle...
Your spell is ready.
''>chan pra''
You channel at a pra'eda.
A pra'eda is suddenly surrounded by a small whirlwind.
CS: +215 - TD: +109 + CvA: +25 + d100: +10 == +141
Warding failed!
The whirlwind quickly swirls around the pra'eda, causing 28 points of damage!
... 25 points of damage!
Knuckles in hand erupt, blood flows freely!
The whirlwind leaves the pra'eda off balance and exposed to the elements.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
Roundtime: 3 sec.
R>prep 502
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Chromatic Circle...
Your spell is ready.
''>chan pra''
You channel at a pra'eda.
A pra'eda is suddenly surrounded by a circle of shifting stones.
CS: +215 - TD: +109 + CvA: +25 + d100: +44 == +175
Warding failed!
The shifting stones quickly orbit the pra'eda, causing 35 points of damage!
... 20 points of damage!
Good blow to back!
The pra'eda is stunned!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
Roundtime: 3 sec.
R>prep 502
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Chromatic Circle...
Your spell is ready.
''>chan pra''
You channel at a pra'eda.
A pra'eda is suddenly surrounded by a circle of crystalline ice shards.
CS: +215 - TD: +109 + CvA: +25 + d100: +51 == +182
Warding failed!
The crystalline ice shards quickly orbit the pra'eda, causing 35 points of damage!
... 30 points of damage!
A frigid burst of energy to the stomach leaves the pra'eda reeling.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
Roundtime: 3 sec.
R>prep 502
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Chromatic Circle...
Your spell is ready.
''>chan pra''
You channel at a pra'eda.
A pra'eda is suddenly surrounded by a circle of crackling lightning.
CS: +215 - TD: +109 + CvA: +25 + d100: +2 == +133
Warding failed!
The crackling lightning quickly arcs around the pra'eda, causing 25 points of damage!
The pra'eda falls to the ground motionless.
The deep blue glow leaves a pra'eda.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around a pra'eda.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
Roundtime: 3 sec.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 932
| author = MOURNE
| date = on 09/17/2015 12:28 PM PDT
| subject = Re: 502 Feedback and Questions
}}
<br>
Fortunately, even an attuned mage can get the other element types if they ATTUNE RANDOM. I did seem to only get the "off balance and exposed to the elements" messaging and DS pushdown on casts that matched my attuned element, though.

I'd also love to see lore-based unlocks that allowed specifying the element used/DS pushdown applied, for strategic use against various opponents.

I'm really enjoying this spell.

---
With great effort you combine the value of your two bloodscrip, leaving you with a single parchment bloodscrip valued at 2112.
You think to yourself, "Another toy that helped destroy the elder race of man..."
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 933
| author = LALAKERCLAN
| date = on 09/17/2015 12:31 PM PDT
| subject = Re: 502 Feedback and Questions
}}
<br>
Once you prep the spell, it will apparently let you cast it as channel...Just using the channel command I get a failure message. See below.

I noticed no difference at all going offensive stance. I don't see any real difference in your examples either. Find me some examples with virtually identical endrolls in different stances and let's see. I hope I'm wrong!

''>cha 502''
You can only channel certain spells for extra power.
''>''
A kobold swings a short sword at you!
AS: +26 vs DS: +363 with AvD: +33 + d100 roll: +73 = -231
A clean miss.
''>prep 502''
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Chromatic Circle...
Your spell is ready.
''>cha ko''
You channel at a kobold.
A kobold is suddenly surrounded by a circle of crackling lightning.
CS: +257 - TD: +3 + CvA: +20 + d100: +14 == +288
Warding failed!
The crackling lightning quickly arcs around the kobold, causing 35 points of damage!
The kobold crumples to a heap on the ground and dies.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 934
| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 09/17/2015 12:32 PM PDT
| subject = Re: 502 Feedback and Questions
}}
<br>
''>Once you prep the spell, it will apparently let you cast it as channel...Just using the channel command I get a failure message. See below.''

that's the way all applicable spells work with channel, there is the channelincant flag though.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 935
| author = DRUMPEL
| date = on 09/17/2015 12:33 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|Based upon the element used, the caster's Elemental Lore training will then cause the target to be vulnerable (a Defensive Strength penalty) to follow up bolt attacks of the same element. Specifically, a fire attuned wizard will use their Elemental Lore, Fire training to lower the target's DS against Minor Fire (906) and Major Fire (908). The DS penalty is calculated as (2 * seed 1 summation), such that at 55 lore ranks, it results in -20 DS for the target.
|-
|GameMaster Estild
|}

There are 5 elements we can attune with, correct?

Fire
Earth
Air
Water
Lightning

How does the DS push down work with Lightning? Does it take the highest lore (Water or Air) into account, or does it take both lores total ranks (Water + Air)?

-Drumpel
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 936
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 09/17/2015 12:36 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|DRUMPEL
|-
|How does the DS push down work with Lightning? Does it take the highest lore (Water or Air) into account, or does it take both lores total ranks (Water + Air)?
|}

It's currently ((EL:W + EL:A) / 2).

GameMaster Estild
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 937
| author = ASHRAAM
| date = on 09/17/2015 12:38 PM PDT
| subject = Re: 502 Feedback and Questions
}}
<br>
''>> I noticed no difference at all going offensive stance. I don't see any real difference in your examples either. Find me some examples with virtually identical endrolls in different stances and let's see. I hope I'm wrong!''

It's right here:

(cast, not channeled from guarded)
You gesture at a pra'eda.
A pra'eda is suddenly surrounded by a circle of crystalline ice shards.
CS: +215 - TD: +109 + CvA: +25 + d100: +54 == +185
Warding failed!
The crystalline ice shards quickly orbit the pra'eda, causing 34 points of damage!
... 20 points of damage!
Blast of cold air to left knee causes a polar knee cap!
The pra'eda is stunned!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

(channeled from offensive stance)
R>prep 502
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Chromatic Circle...
Your spell is ready.
''>chan pra''
You channel at a pra'eda.
A pra'eda is suddenly surrounded by a circle of crystalline ice shards.
CS: +215 - TD: +109 + CvA: +25 + d100: +51 == +182
Warding failed!
The crystalline ice shards quickly orbit the pra'eda, causing 35 points of damage!
... 30 points of damage!
A frigid burst of energy to the stomach leaves the pra'eda reeling.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
Roundtime: 3 sec.


The 185 end-roll from guarded without channel had less overall damage than the 182 end-roll from offensive with channel (by 11 damage). Maybe it's not a massive difference, but it might scale with lores. I'm not trained well with lores taken into consideration.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 938
| author = LALAKERCLAN
| date = on 09/17/2015 12:38 PM PDT
| subject = Re: 502 Feedback and Questions
}}
<br>
But does that mean it is actually getting the benefit of CHANNEL?
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 939
| author = CAELRIC
| date = on 09/17/2015 12:38 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
So, Estild, could you solve the short debate and let us know whether channeling or open hands have any effect? Also, does lore have an effect on increasing the damage?

-Taakhooshi, and Me

For the Story of Taakhooshi:
http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Taakhooshi
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 940
| author = LALAKERCLAN
| date = on 09/17/2015 12:49 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
Offensive
You gesture at a skeletal lord.
A skeletal lord is suddenly surrounded by a circle of crackling lightning.
CS: +257 - TD: +138 + CvA: +1 + d100: +93 == +213
Warding failed!
The crackling lightning quickly arcs around the lord, causing 35 points of damage!
... 20 points of damage!
Nasty jolt to back fuses a few vertebrae. Definitely uncomfortable.

Guarded
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a skeletal lord.
A skeletal lord is suddenly surrounded by a circle of crackling lightning.
CS: +257 - TD: +138 + CvA: +1 + d100: +80 == +200
Warding failed!
The crackling lightning quickly arcs around the lord, causing 35 points of damage!
... 20 points of damage!
The skeletal lord is stunned!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

I have no air or water lore. Lower endroll in guarded yielded same damage as from offensive.

Either there is no benefit, or the benefit is VERY minor.

I'm seeing far more consistent damage out of my fire crits (38 ranks of fire lore) than anything else.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 941
| author = ASHRAAM
| date = on 09/17/2015 12:51 PM PDT
| subject = Re: 502 Feedback and Questions
}}
<br>
''>> But does that mean it is actually getting the benefit of CHANNEL? ''

Well, until a GM says otherwise, the same damage type, from the same character, on the same target, where the end-roll was ''lower'' using channel than not resulting in higher damage. I can only assume that means that channel OR offensive stance had some impact on the outcome.

Of course I only think I grasp the game mechanics. There might be some other reason why a lower end-roll would result in more damage?
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 942
| author = LALAKERCLAN
| date = on 09/17/2015 12:51 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
Not to belabor the point but some more examples:

Guarded
You gesture at a skeletal lord.
A skeletal lord is suddenly surrounded by a circle of shifting stones.
CS: +257 - TD: +138 + CvA: +1 + d100: +57 == +177
Warding failed!
The shifting stones quickly orbit the lord, causing 34 points of damage!
... 20 points of damage!
Good blow to chest!
The shifting stones leave the lord off balance and exposed to the elements.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

Offensive
You gesture at a skeletal lord.
A skeletal lord is suddenly surrounded by a circle of shifting stones.
CS: +257 - TD: +141 + CvA: +1 + d100: +59 == +176
Warding failed!
The shifting stones quickly orbit the lord, causing 30 points of damage!
... 15 points of damage!
Blow to back connects lightly.
You hear a sound like a weeping child as a white glow separates itself from the skeletal lord's body as it rises, disappearing into the heavens.
The skeletal lord falls to the ground motionless.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 943
| author = DRUMPEL
| date = on 09/17/2015 12:52 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
''>It's currently ((EL:W + EL:A) / 2).''
''>GameMaster Estild''

Thanks for the quick reply!

-Drumpel
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 944
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 09/17/2015 12:54 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
Yes, channeling helps. We have to specifically set up spells to allow channeling, so if you can "channel <target" to cast it, it works. However, if you're warding margin is already 100+, you're already reaching the cap of the damage, so you won't notice a difference then. Even against lower warding margins, you can't just compare two casts side by side to draw any conclusions due to crit randomization. However, the initial concussion damage will show a difference.

Elemental Lore only affects the vulnerability (DS penalty) aspect of the spell and does not increase 502's damage.

GameMaster Estild
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 945
| author = FIREPHOENIX
| date = on 09/17/2015 12:54 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|In addition, weapon attacks enhanced by the Elemental Blade (411) spell that also match the same element as 502 will also cause the target to suffer the same DS penalty.
|}

How does this work with enchanted flaring weaponry and in conjunction with say the 425 changes for enchanting flaring weaponry say a 7x acid flaring falchion based sword? Can the 411 effect somehow be natural if the lore, attune and 502 matches the enchanted weapon flare type?

Or does it...
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 946
| author = ASHRAAM
| date = on 09/17/2015 12:56 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
''>> Based upon the element used, the caster's Elemental Lore training will then cause the target to be vulnerable (a Defensive Strength penalty) to follow up bolt attacks of the same element.''

How does this interact with Acid and Steam bolts? Is water/fire/earth vulnerability factored into these bolt types, or do you have to stick to pure elemental bolt types to take advantage of the DS weakness?
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 947
| author = BALEKIA
| date = on 09/17/2015 12:58 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
''>> It's currently ((EL:W + EL:A) / 2).''

Hopefully not reading too much into the "it's currently" but I see a pretty easy argument for not having the / 2 in there, especially if "Storm Mage" (and hopefully Acid and Steam!) is elevating to a primary build. The reason being that a mage who devotes 200 ranks to being a good fire mage should get around the same benefits as a mage who devotes 200 ranks into being a good storm mage.

Is this open for discussion? I'm guessing some of the thought is that the other benefits of two 100 lores are higher, namely that the character has "suffered" less overall from seed diminishment. That's the only reason I can think why there's a penalty on Lightning (similarly the penalty on DF for hybrid spells).

I hope this comes off as a desire for discussion more than anything else, I'm just curious what the motivation behind the / 2 for lightning is.



Oh.. also, very happy at the seed 1, that's great. Does the benefit continue open-ended or is there a hard cap? If there is a hard cap, than the previous argument loses some weight since both mages can still hit said cap (depending on what it is, of course).
<br>
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 948
| author = ASHRAAM
| date = on 09/17/2015 12:58 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
''>>Not to belabor the point but some more examples:''

Need to try channeling. Stances are apparently not a factor.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 949
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 09/17/2015 01:04 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|ASHRAAM
|-
|Need to try channeling. Stances are apparently not a factor.
|}

Channeling works the same for every spell; stance is a factor. https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/CHANNEL_(verb)

A note about that wiki entry: "EXTRA NOTE: Currently CHANNELING does not work correctly from the StormFront Combat Panel. When clicking the cast button for a channeled spell with the CHANNELINCANT setting at ON, the hard rt is applied but the spell is NOT actually channeled. Therefore no channeling benefits are applied to the cast spell. The issue is known to GM Estild."

I'm pretty sure I fixed that issue a few years ago.

GameMaster Estild
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 950
| author = OBSERVER
| date = on 09/17/2015 01:08 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
I'm curious, Estild, does the bit about channelling now helping with endrolls 100+ above success hold true for other spells that use the verb? Knowing when Channel helps and when it doesn't would be nice.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 951
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 09/17/2015 01:11 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|OBSERVER
|-
|I'm curious, Estild, does the bit about channelling now helping with endrolls 100+ above success hold true for other spells that use the verb? Knowing when Channel helps and when it doesn't would be nice.
|}

No, that's just determined by a damage cap, which varies from spell to spell. Many spells don't have any at all.

GameMaster Estild
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 952
| author = KRAKII
| date = on 09/17/2015 01:12 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
I am also curious about Steam, Acid, Plasma, and any of the other hybrid Elemental crit types.

And see also, Order of the Stick: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0423.html
<br>
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 953
| author = KRAKII
| date = on 09/17/2015 01:13 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
Oh, and in other news?

Yeah, my Bard is now ''also'' seriously considering a Rainbow Hoolahoop/502 Self-Knowledge situation. <nod>
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 954
| author = OBSERVER
| date = on 09/17/2015 01:14 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
Thanks, Estild.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 955
| author = DOUG
| date = on 09/17/2015 02:16 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
Estild -

Now we're talkin'! Um. . . I haven't tested personally, but have a question based on my reading.

Is it accurate that the non-attuned mage (never attuned to any element) will not get the benefit of the elemental vulnerability the spell offers?

Doug
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 956
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 09/17/2015 02:38 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
''>> Is it accurate that the non-attuned mage (never attuned to any element) will not get the benefit of the elemental vulnerability the spell offers? ~Doug''

That does not appear to be an accurate interpretation:

You gesture at a jungle troll chieftain.
A jungle troll chieftain is suddenly surrounded by a circle of flickering flames.
CS: +535 - TD: +114 + CvA: +25 + d100: +58 == +504
Warding failed!
The flickering flames quickly swirl around the chieftain, causing 35 points of damage!
... 30 points of damage!
Burst of flames to right leg burns skin bright red.
The troll chieftain howls in agony as the flames dance over her body!
... 20 points of damage!
Minor burns to back. Looks uncomfortable.

The flickering flames leave the chieftain off balance and exposed to the elements.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

-- Robert (aka Faulkil the unattuned)

Fluke in the programming, or just your average everyday Konacode? ~ Konacon
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 957
| author = LALAKERCLAN
| date = on 09/17/2015 03:09 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
I would really like to see the initial damage portion of this uncapped...or raise the cap much higher.

I'm not saying it should do exactly the same damage as 702, but a little closer, no? Particularly now that 702 has the spell-stripping lore benefit, 702 is both potentially deadly and useful.

502 has some use in the right circumstances, but if elemental lores don't affect the crit severity, the damage of this spell is left far behind 702, and the utility of the spell does not exactly make up for it.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 958
| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 09/17/2015 03:13 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
''>502 has some use in the right circumstances, but if elemental lores don't affect the crit severity, the damage of this spell is left far behind 702, and the utility of the spell does not exactly make up for it.''

I'm not sure if you're taking into account major circle vs. profession circle. I'm not saying the spell shouldn't be adjusted, but that no matter what it will not be as close to 702 in power as you might want.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 959
| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 09/17/2015 03:27 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
BUT! what if 902 and 502 were switched? 902 seems to be 411-ish in nature and would fit well in the 500s I think, then you can do more with adjusting the damage/benefits with Chromatic Circle as 902.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 960
| author = LALAKERCLAN
| date = on 09/17/2015 03:31 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
I'll just quote myself:

"I'm not saying it should do exactly the same damage as 702, but a little closer, no?"
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 961
| author = BALEKIA
| date = on 09/17/2015 03:41 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
Yeah, if the argument is only profession versus non, 902 needs a new heart...

Swapping them makes sense except for how cs is calculated. 500 is supposed to be wizards cs circle effectively.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 962
| author = ARIETTA
| date = on 09/17/2015 03:50 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
''>>Swapping them makes sense except for how cs is calculated. 500 is supposed to be wizards cs circle effectively.>>>''

I'm not sure that's necessarily true, especially after all the changes. It seems like training in the Wizard profession circle may be more attractive than it was. I guess time will tell.

~ GtG
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 963
| author = GS4-AULIS
| date = on 09/17/2015 04:15 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
''>>Swapping them makes sense except for how cs is calculated. 500 is supposed to be wizards cs circle effectively. ''

In my opinion, and only my opinion since I'm not on the DEV team at all...I wouldn't specifically say one circle is intended/supposed to be specific to one attack type. Providing a wide variety of attack styles in each circle a wizard can train in, along with other types of spells, makes it all the better. Then you're not forced into cookie-cutter training regimens. I've personally always felt that the harder it was to personally choose between getting ranks in X circle versus Y circle makes for a better variety of wizards across the board, training-style wise.

Take rogues and their combat and utility abilities for example. They can be extremely good ambushers and no good at all at locksmithing. They can be amazing archers (from the open or hiding) and still be pretty good locksmiths. They can go full out TWC and be very good from the open or hiding. Or they can be still be good at combat but amazing locksmiths. Even within those styles there are still a lot of possibilities and choices to be made.


~Aulis
Forums Manager
QC'er
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 964
| author = SPYRIDONM1
| date = on 09/17/2015 04:42 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
Thanks Estild and team! This is a great addition to the wizard arsenal.

Question: Does the channeling bonus affect critical rank outcomes or only concussion damage?

Mark
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 965
| author = BALEKIA
| date = on 09/17/2015 04:52 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
''>> Providing a wide variety of attack styles in each circle a wizard can train in, along with other types of spells, makes it all the better. Then you're not forced into cookie-cutter training regimens. I've personally always felt that the harder it was to personally choose between getting ranks in X circle versus Y circle makes for a better variety of wizards across the board, training-style wise.''

I agree 100% with the intention, but the problem is that in order to make this work, we'd need more CS based options in the 900's. Outside of this (proposed) 902 attack spell, the only other spell that grows with wizard ranks is Call wind (which isn't a damager). I'm speaking in terms of COMBAT btw, for anybody who wants to point out 925 etc.

On the flip side, 500's are full of CS based spells, this new 502, immolate, slow, immolation, ice patch. Taking ranks away from the 500's to increase ONE spell in another circle only works if that will pretty much be the one spell you cast. Now, if 900 had a wide range of CS based spells, including at least a stock spell (502) a nuke (519) and a disabler, then it would be viable.

Overall, I would love if training Wizard base or 500's base was viable to be either a bolter or a CSer, but right now if you train wizard base, you're not really a CS wizard.

Sorcerer's aren't AS affected by this because their primary circle, 700 is full of warding spells, so training it becomes natural. If they wish to bolt, they can rely on spell aiming. By the same token, a Wizard can rely on spell aiming for bolting from the 900's if they train CS in the 500's. Basically, what I'm saying is that a character trained in 500 can be a good either, but without major revision a character trained in 900 can't be a good either (they'd be able to rock 1 spell, IF 902 become chromatic circle).

This is in no way advocating anything it's mostly just observations. There's nothing WRONG with "X circle is for Y playstyle, and A circle is for B playstyle." Wizards are unique because they GET two profession circles. However, any profession that wards will want to always stack up in that circle. There's not a lot of sorcs out there with 167 Minor elem ranks to get their 415 CS up, after all, and Clerics who cast cleric spells focus on the cleric circle.



''>> Take rogues and their combat and utility abilities for example. They can be extremely good ambushers and no good at all at locksmithing. They can be amazing archers (from the open or hiding) and still be pretty good locksmiths. They can go full out TWC and be very good from the open or hiding. Or they can be still be good at combat but amazing locksmiths. Even within those styles there are still a lot of possibilities and choices to be made.''

Again, I can appreciate the sentiment here, and PRE cap it's absolutely true. Before cap, Rogues, Rangers, bards etc. all have to pick between being good at ambushing, or ranged, or lockpicking etc. However, after cap, a rogue no longer has to pick just one. Eventually, they can get all.

In order for this anology to hold true, Ambush, Perception, Disarm Traps, and Lockpicking would all have to become part of one group of skills called.... Subtlety skills or something. A rogue would only be allowed to 3x in subtlety, and as such if they want to be a great ambusher, they can't be a great trapper.

Now this isn't saying rogues get to be great at everything, or that the TP costs aren't prohibitive, just that the example only holds pre-cap. I've seen plenty of wizards that can pick, and rogues that can cast, but because each spell circle can't be 2xed independently, nobody will ever be optimal at warding in two circles.

Now, it's fully possible that somebody could be "good enough for all practical purposes" in two, however my understanding around TD balance is that it doesn't really play out in practice.


Please take this post as respectful musings, it's not intended to be anything more. I'm not advocating for anything changing in this, just that for spellcasters, training paths don't allow for multiple warding circles the way the game is built.
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 966
| author = ERYKK2
| date = on 09/17/2015 04:59 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|Yeah, if the argument is only profession versus non, 902 needs a new heart...
|-
|
|-
|Swapping them makes sense except for how cs is calculated. 500 is supposed to be wizards cs circle effectively.
|}


See my suggestion in another thread!

502 moves to 902,
519 moves to 919.

All of our CS spells are now in our primary circle. And you have to make a choice between over-training 900's for CS and sacrificing Bolt AS (from 513), or training spells evenly.
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 967
| author = BALEKIA
| date = on 09/17/2015 05:02 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
''>> All of our CS spells are now in our primary circle. And you have to make a choice between over-training 900's for CS and sacrificing Bolt AS (from 513), or training spells evenly.''

Drain mana is a staple, and it's in 500 as well. Slow is too. 519 is the nuke, yeah, but there's support spells in that circle as well. It would require a bit more of an overhaul then it might first appear. There's also sleep, hand of tonis (warding version), Ice patch (targeted version).
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 968
| author = ASHRAAM
| date = on 09/17/2015 05:05 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
''>>All of our CS spells are now in our primary circle. And you have to make a choice between over-training 900's for CS and sacrificing Bolt AS (from 513), or training spells evenly.''

That isn't all of the Wizard CS spells. It's their primary CS attack spells, but not the same as all of them. There are no warding spells currently in the 900s, and I seriously doubt there ever will be.

At the same time, they already said that 902 wasn't done in a previous post about what hasn't been completed with the ELR. I am thinking 902 is about to see a face-lift also, and it would be great to get a preview. It's probably going to be another missing piece of the puzzle for what the Warmage is missing if Haste stops being sustainable.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 969
| author = ARIETTA
| date = on 09/17/2015 05:08 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
''>>Drain mana is a staple, and it's in 500 as well. Slow is too. 519 is the nuke, yeah, but there's support spells in that circle as well. It would require a bit more of an overhaul then it might first appear. There's also sleep, hand of tonis (warding version), Ice patch (targeted version).>>>''

This is all true.

I have to say, though...CS has never been a big issue for my wizard, much to my sorcerer's dismay. Her CS is quite usable in all her circles. Diversification has some nice benefits.

~ GtG
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 970
| author = ERYKK2
| date = on 09/17/2015 05:09 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|''>> All of our CS spells are now in our primary circle. And you have to make a choice between over-training 900's for CS and sacrificing Bolt AS (from 513), or training spells evenly.''
|-
|
|-
|Drain mana is a staple, and it's in 500 as well. Slow is too. 519 is the nuke, yeah, but there's support spells in that circle as well. It would require a bit more of an overhaul then it might first appear. There's also sleep, hand of tonis (warding version), Ice patch (targeted version).
|}

I would move 516 to 916, but I don't think we lose anything by leaving the rest where they are. They're mostly useless spells anyway (512, 501, 504, 505)
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 971
| author = OBSERVER
| date = on 09/17/2015 05:09 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
Better to move the CS spells to Major Elemental than the other way around. You only need to grab Weapon Fire. I'm beginning to think Weapon Fire should used a success factor other than CS, though.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 972
| author = ERYKK2
| date = on 09/17/2015 05:10 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|That isn't all of the Wizard CS spells. It's their primary CS attack spells, but not the same as all of them. There are no warding spells currently in the 900s, and I seriously doubt there ever will be.
|-
|
|-
|At the same time, they already said that 902 wasn't done in a previous post about what hasn't been completed with the ELR. I am thinking 902 is about to see a face-lift also, and it would be great to get a preview. It's probably going to be another missing piece of the puzzle for what the Warmage is missing if Haste stops being sustainable.
|}

What is 915 if it's not a warding spell?
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 973
| author = BALEKIA
| date = on 09/17/2015 05:11 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
''>> I have to say, though...CS has never been a big issue for my wizard, much to my sorcerer's dismay. Her CS is quite usable in all her circles. Diversification has some nice benefits. ''

Yeah, Pain and Evil Eye only REALLY become insane (borderline OP in some circumstances) when you have ultra-max CS. If you didn't need to get those amazing endrolls to trigger them, sorcs wouldn't need to focus so much either.

My understanding is that a wizard who immo's does need to go crazy CS (again, to maximize the endroll) but one that is just using 500 circle spells to provide support can get away with much less focus. However, if you suddenly needed to generate killing power off of two circles, the formula would shift and it would be a tighter pinning on the two.

Bolters, in either profession, gain a huge flexibility because of their AS coming from spell aiming (same with Bolters in Cleric or Empath... but those are generally "mutant" builds, viable, but more a personal choice).
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 974
| author = ERYKK2
| date = on 09/17/2015 05:13 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|Better to move the CS spells to Major Elemental than the other way around. You only need to grab Weapon Fire. I'm beginning to think Weapon Fire should used a success factor other than CS, though.
|}

My only issue with this is if you look at every other pure class. Their major warding spells are in their primary spell circle.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 975
| author = BALEKIA
| date = on 09/17/2015 05:16 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
''>> My only issue with this is if you look at every other pure class. Their major warding spells are in their primary spell circle. ''

Agreed, the problem is that to put all wizard major CS spells into their primary spell circle would require finding space to put all the elemental bolts.

Moving ALL of them into 500 and pulling the CS spells from 500 would accomplish this, and would allow for the "profession" circle to be the most powerful, however ultimately, what's the point? You'd essentially end up with a no-op in practice (500 would be 900 and 900 would be 500). The numbers would just switch around, and it would be a lot of work.

However, because this COULD be done, it makes the "profession vs. non-profession" argument less weighty. Since 902, even if revised, will likely be on the lower end of potency as far as level 2 spells go (they're never supposed to rock the world) why not just let 502 be the wizard "good" slot? Ultimately, the end effect is the same, and if 500 ever becomes a shared circle... worry about it then, since the whole of 500 will probably have to be revised anyway.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 976
| author = OBSERVER
| date = on 09/17/2015 05:24 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
''>My only issue with this is if you look at every other pure class. Their major warding spells are in their primary spell circle. ''

I hear you, and a ridiculous shifting of spells would definitely give them the room to grow if the GMs are truly following the Minor > Major > (Pure) Profession paradigm when it comes to wizards and their captured Major List.

The 900's has so many spells which need a redesign that I think it's better just to focus on reworking them entirely rather than turfing them onto another list.

Minor Elemental Edge (Still waiting on ELR)
Weapon Fire
Invisibility
Boil Earth
Duplicate
935 and 940

That's a lot of wasted potential, all sitting on the Wizard spell circle. Some of them, like Duplicate, taking up an 18th level spell slot. That's why a few have been pushing hard for a commitment from the GMs to a Wizard Spell Review. It's needed badly, and they can't just point to spells like Immolate, Haste, and Rapid Fire anymore and say, "Careful what you asked for!"

But all this is getting off-topic

I'm hoping 411 gains the ability (among others) to be cast at ANY weapon regardless of properties to work with 502. It doesn't need to enhance it in any other way than to be compatible with Chromatic Circle. Wizards shouldn't be punished if they want to use something other than a 4x elemental flaring weapon.

Otherwise, I think it's an awesome spell. Well done, Estild.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 977
| author = BALEKIA
| date = on 09/17/2015 05:28 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
''>> I'm hoping 411 gains the ability (among others) to be cast at ANY weapon regardless of properties to work with 502. It doesn't need to enhance it in any other way than to be compatible with Chromatic Circle. Wizards shouldn't be punished if they want to use something other than a 4x elemental flaring weapon. ''

I wouldn't be surprised if 411 ends up losing the +20 (or only keeping it on plain old weapons) and instead becomes castable on almost anything for an extra elemental flare, similar to 735 self cast.

I wouldn't be surprised if it's something completely different either.
<br>
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 978
| author = KRAKII
| date = on 09/17/2015 05:34 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
"I wouldn't be surprised if 411 ends up losing the +20 (or only keeping it on plain old weapons) and instead becomes castable on almost anything for an extra elemental flare, similar to 735 self cast." -- Balekia

I would lurve this if you can cast it on your RuneStaff, for a chance at extra flares.

Particularly if it works on Sonic RuneStaves, for a chance at a third (3rd!) flare. <beam!>
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 979
| author = ERYKK2
| date = on 09/17/2015 05:51 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|''>> My only issue with this is if you look at every other pure class. Their major warding spells are in their primary spell circle. ''
|-
|
|-
|Agreed, the problem is that to put all wizard major CS spells into their primary spell circle would require finding space to put all the elemental bolts.
|}

I wouldn't move them all though. I would move the best ones and leave the rest. (Leaving 501,504,512)

If you look at the other pures, they have disablers in their minor/major spheres.
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 980
| author = KEITHOBAD
| date = on 09/17/2015 05:54 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
Get out of here you dirty bard, you have too many flares already!
(only joking ;)



''>>if the GMs are truly following the Minor > Major > (Pure) Profession paradigm''

...yeah I wonder about that. Sure seems to me like it's used as an excuse when it suits, and ignored it the rest of the time.

410,414,425,430,120,115,140,215,etc.. plenty of awesome spells in non-professional circles. And I can find plenty of stinkers in the 900's so I think it really comes down to balancing against the class(es) that have access to it more than anything else. And in that way, I hope that 502 is at least close to 702, I don't really see an obvious reason why it shouldn't be at least close. (and maybe it is, I haven't tested it)
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 981
| author = OBSERVER
| date = on 09/17/2015 06:04 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
I honestly think the wizard circle went untouched for so long because they told any GM that wanted to work on it that they'd have to nerf some spells before adding awesome new ones.

I'm only 3/4ths kidding.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 982
| author = KEITHOBAD
| date = on 09/17/2015 06:40 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
I wouldn't be at all surprised if it went something like that.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 983
| author = THROGG
| date = on 09/17/2015 08:52 PM PDT
| subject = new commands
}}
<br>
I am really annoyed by the command changes to incant, and the new evoke command; it's especially annoying with 505. What was wrong with the old system? Do I really have to add second lines to all my macros? And in areas with more than one critter type, do I need to make a separate macro for each creature type? Why does just using evoke attack the caster? How about an incantevoke flag? Did anyone actually try this system out before implementing it?
''>pre 505''
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Hand of Tonis...
Your spell is ready.
''>evoke''
You gesture.
You unleash a bolt of churning air at yourself!
AS: +254 vs DS: +265 with AvD: +41 + d100 roll: +38 = +68
A clean miss.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
A sea nymph swings a dagger at you!
You evade the attack with ease!
''>pre 505''
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Hand of Tonis...
Your spell is ready.
''>evoke nym''
You gesture at a sea nymph.
You unleash a bolt of churning air at a sea nymph!
AS: +254 vs DS: -3 with AvD: +52 + d100 roll: +84 = +393
... and hit for 174 points of damage!
Blow to the eye dazes the sea nymph. The sea nymph struggles to recover.
The sea nymph falls to the ground and dies.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
A sea nymph just arrived.
''>target nym''
You are now targeting a sea nymph.
''>incant 505''
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Hand of Tonis...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a sea nymph.
CS: +478 - TD: +6 + CvA: +25 + d100: +71 == +568
Warding failed!
A wispy hand of air reaches toward a sea nymph and grasps it tightly. The hand squeezes hard, snatching the breath from its lungs.
A sea nymph is stunned.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
A sea nymph stirs groggily.
''>pre 505''
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Hand of Tonis...
Your spell is ready.
''>evoke''
You gesture.
You unleash a bolt of churning air at yourself!
AS: +254 vs DS: +265 with AvD: +41 + d100 roll: +61 = +91
A clean miss.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
A sea nymph decays into compost.
''>''
A sea nymph stirs groggily.
''>stance off''
You are now in an offensive stance.
''>incant 505''
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Hand of Tonis...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a sea nymph.
A hand of air reaches towards a sea nymph and wraps its wispy fingers tightly around the sea nymph but it seems to have no effect.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
You feel at full magical power again.
''>pre 505''
A sea nymph stirs groggily.
''>''
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Hand of Tonis...
Your spell is ready.
''>evoke nym''
You gesture at a sea nymph.
You unleash a bolt of churning air at a sea nymph!
AS: +424 vs DS: -23 with AvD: +52 + d100 roll: +40 = +539
... and hit for 259 points of damage!
Spun clockwise, the sea nymph falls in a heap.
The sea nymph falls to the ground and dies.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>set incantevoke on''
That is not a valid flag.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 984
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 09/17/2015 10:21 PM PDT
| subject = Re: new commands
}}
<br>
''> How about an incantevoke flag?''

We have something like this coming up, but I think you're going to like it more than you would like incantevoke.

~ Konacon
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 985
| author = DRUMPEL
| date = on 09/17/2015 10:27 PM PDT
| subject = Re: new commands
}}
<br>
''>I am really annoyed by the command changes to incant, and the new evoke command; it's especially annoying with 505. What was wrong with the old system? Do I really have to add second lines to all my macros? And in areas with more than one critter type, do I need to make a separate macro for each creature type? Why does just using evoke attack the caster? How about an incantevoke flag? Did anyone actually try this system out before implementing it?''

While I'm not against them adding to the on how to cast spells and I like the flavors they put in (mostly)...I do agree that it's a bit much, too fast and kind of poorly laid out to cast the additions.

I don't enjoy having to EVOKE at target after I prepped my spell. It's second nature to INCANT spell# and watch the fireworks fly! I don't see myself making use of these spells (unless I queue up some macros - which isn't hard to do, but I use very few macros and scripts so I'm not used to using them) unless they become more casting friendly; easier to get your desired results from one command entry, instead of two or three.

I'll just stick with what works - INCANT ewave or call wind and then INCANT hurl boulder (or cone of boulders, should it be required - and no, it won't be the friendly version).

-Drumpel
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 986
| author = BRANDTJRT
| date = on 09/17/2015 11:01 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
This seems pretty neat to me so far. There was a ton of messages so I tried to search and find, but I didn't see anything. But maybe that's me. So I am wondering if there are any plans for a standard treasure system wand of this spell to show up (or even make silver wands that instead of a duplicate of iron)? Or an alchemy recipe that will work for a wand of new 502?

I really like having the ability to attack with shifting stones of doom now. :D
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 987
| author = KEITHOBAD
| date = on 09/17/2015 11:30 PM PDT
| subject = Re: new commands
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|We have something like this coming up, but I think you're going to like it more than you would like incantevoke.
|-
|
|-
|~ Konacon
|}

So mysterious!

How much lawn watering will it take to get you to spill? :D
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 988
| author = MIGHTONS
| date = on 09/17/2015 11:42 PM PDT
| subject = Re: A Hasty proposal (506)...
}}
<br>
This is pretty reasonable. Lower level warmages will be forced to use haste more sparingly, but since at these levels (up to around 40 or 50) the warmage is currently one of the most powerful classes in the game, the nerf will not be felt so harshly. At the higher levels, whether for RT-lock mitigation or weapon usage, those who want perma-haste can achieve it with some sacrifices.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 989
| author = KEITHOBAD
| date = on 09/17/2015 11:55 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
Oh and as my final piece of evidence negating the Professional > Major > Minor setup as it relates to wizards I give you: 510 vs 910. Virtually identical spells.

So, given that, 502 should be on par with 702 in terms of damage & cap.

((The long version is I don't think PRO>MAJ>MIN was part of original GS design and the 500's and 900's are a mishmash of useful and terrible spells that haven't been looked at in 15+ years. If you want to say 502 can't be as strong as 702, then by the same token 915 should be roughly equivalent to 1115.))
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 990
| author = ARIETTA
| date = on 09/18/2015 12:46 AM PDT
| subject = Re: new commands
}}
<br>
Pro tip: Use evoke target on the command line and in your macros for easy targeting.

''>prep minoracid''
Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Acid...
Your spell is ready.
''>evoke target''
You gesture at a minotaur warrior.
A minotaur warrior is awakened by your attack!
You need at least 30 ranks of elemental water lore training to evoke this spell as Major Acid.
You hurl a hissing stream of acid at a minotaur warrior!
AS: +457 vs DS: +210 with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +84 = +360
... and hit for 112 points of damage!
Acid dissolves connecting cartilage, freeing the minotaur warrior's ribs to move independently.
Some of the acid sticks to a minotaur warrior and continues to bubble away!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
Acid continues to eat away at a minotaur warrior!
... 35 points of damage!
Acid dissolves abdominal muscles. No sucking in the gut now!
''>''
Acid continues to eat away at a minotaur warrior!
... 35 points of damage!
Strike dissolves the tendons in the ankle, effectively severing foot!
The acid quickly bubbles away and disappears.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 991
| author = ZENDADA
| date = on 09/18/2015 02:46 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
I like this new spell!

Chad, player of a few
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 992
| author = ZENDADA
| date = on 09/18/2015 02:47 AM PDT
| subject = Re: new commands
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|Pro tip: Use evoke target on the command line and in your macros for easy targeting.
|-
|
|-
|ARIETTA
|}

Nice. Thanks!

Chad, player of a few
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 993
| author = CIRCADIANZEBRA
| date = on 09/18/2015 06:37 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Wizards/Major%20Elemental%20Circle/view/923

Did these questions get answered? If they did, I have completely missed them in the shuffle. Which is not unlikely.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 994
| author = ASHRAAM
| date = on 09/18/2015 07:17 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
Still very interested to hear how this works (or if it works) with 904, 1707 and 1710.

I'm also wondering if 306 and 111 benefit from the debuffing caused by 502?
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 995
| author = WINTERMYST
| date = on 09/18/2015 08:34 AM PDT
| subject = Re: new commands
}}
<br>
''''

Gah please no more water, my elf hates to get wet

You also see the Shilarra disk etched with the image of a Vathor
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 996
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 09/18/2015 10:00 AM PDT
| subject = Re: new commands
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|So mysterious!
|-
|
|-
|How much lawn watering will it take to get you to spill? :D
|}

Can't spill quite yet, sorry. :(

I want to make sure all the details are set and going to work before I tell everyone about it.

~ Konacon
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 997
| author = BALEKIA
| date = on 09/18/2015 10:08 AM PDT
| subject = Re: new commands
}}
<br>
''>> I want to make sure all the details are set and going to work before I tell everyone about it.''


Yes, otherwise somebody might type incant evoke cast channel, which is the secret command to 525 the entire game world.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 998
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 09/18/2015 10:37 AM PDT
| subject = Re: new commands
}}
<br>
Oh wait... Konacon is coding this??>!?!

-- Robert

Fluke in the programming, or just your average everyday Konacode? ~ Konacon
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 999
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 09/18/2015 10:47 AM PDT
| subject = Re: new commands
}}
<br>
''> Oh wait... Konacon is coding this??>!?!''

Right?! Who is up there making these kinds of decisions? We demand answers!

~ Konacon
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1000
| author = BALEKIA
| date = on 09/18/2015 10:48 AM PDT
| subject = Re: new commands
}}
<br>
''>> Right?! Who is up there making these kinds of decisions? We demand answers!''

We also demand helmets! and bunkers!
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1001
| author = KRAKII
| date = on 09/18/2015 10:53 AM PDT
| subject = Re: new commands
}}
<br>
"Can't spill quite yet, sorry." -- Konacon

This is another Water Lore joke, isn't it?!?

.

"Yes, otherwise somebody might type incant evoke cast channel, which is the secret command to 525 the entire game world." -- Balekia

Actually, David told us in 1998 what that is: "slash nuke"
/nuke

Kills every character in the game. Right now.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1002
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 09/18/2015 11:26 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
''>BUT! what if 902 and 502 were switched? 902 seems to be 411-ish in nature and would fit well in the 500s I think, then you can do more with adjusting the damage/benefits with Chromatic Circle as 902.''

No thanks. We need our MjE CS for other things and don't want to gimp it.

~ Methais
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1003
| author = DRUMPEL
| date = on 09/18/2015 11:51 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
No switching spell numbers.

I had a hard enough time when they removed Unpain (510) from the Wizard's MjE spell circle and replaced it with Hurl Boulder....

Casting a boulder at yourself is the complete opposite of Unpain! After a couple of these self harming casts of Hurl Boulder, I finally stopped trying to use Unpain since it was no longer available.

I will be my own worst enemy if you start moving spell numbers around.

-Drumpel
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1004
| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 09/18/2015 12:03 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
''>Casting a boulder at yourself is the complete opposite of Unpain! After a couple of these self harming casts of Hurl Boulder, I finally stopped trying to use Unpain since it was no longer available.''

''>I will be my own worst enemy if you start moving spell numbers around.''

In general, being averse to change is not a good reason to not make changes, especially when those changes mean to improve the bigger picture.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1005
| author = KRAKII
| date = on 09/18/2015 12:11 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
Right!

"In general, being averse to change is not a good reason to not make changes, especially when those changes mean to improve the bigger picture." -- VanKrasn39

What she said!

.

.

So bring back Breakage, already!!

:)
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1006
| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 09/18/2015 12:12 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
.

.

.

Breakage does not improve the bigger picture.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1007
| author = LALAKERCLAN
| date = on 09/18/2015 02:04 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
But seriously the damage component of this spell needs to be raised. I really do not see any reason why it should lag so far behind 702, and heck even 302 (is that smite:bane? Not sure) so badly. It should be doing at least 75% of MD's damage, given its additional utility to bolt vulnerability, which I do like.

This is a good spell, and obviously a huge improvement over spell store, but for some reason it feels like Wizards are getting shafted compared to Sorcs and their review. MD does better damage AND strips spells. Cmon Estild, uncap the damage or make the crits better with lores! You can do it!
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1008
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 09/18/2015 02:05 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
''>My only issue with this is if you look at every other pure class. Their major warding spells are in their primary spell circle.''

Wizards are the only class that has 2 exclusive spell lists. Everyone else has their profession circle, and the rest are shared with other professions.

Major Elemental is just as much a primary spell circle for wizards as Wizard spell circle is, and they complement each other quite well, i.e. 513, which requires MjE ranks to max out your bolt AS, etc.

Warding usually isn't a big issue anyway. I can hit most capped critters with 415, and my minor CS is 504 compared to my 557 major CS.

~ Methais
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1009
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 09/18/2015 02:10 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|LALAKERCLAN
|-
|But seriously the damage component of this spell needs to be raised. I really do not see any reason why it should lag so far behind 702, and heck even 302 (is that smite:bane? Not sure) so badly. It should be doing at least 75% of MD's damage, given its additional utility to bolt vulnerability, which I do like.
|}

Chromatic Circle's (502) damage is very close to Bane/Smite (302).

GameMaster Estild
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1010
| author = CANDIDE
| date = on 09/18/2015 03:35 PM PDT
| subject = Re: new commands
}}
<br>
"We have something like this coming up, but I think you're going to like it more than you would like incantevoke.

~ Konacon"

This is wonderful news. I'm sending you a gold star.

GBB
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1011
| author = SPYRIDONM1
| date = on 09/18/2015 03:58 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
Estild, can you please verify if attunement is a requirement to gain the DS penalty or is it only necessary to have lore ranks that match the elemental damage type. E.g. will a non-attuned wizard with 20 ranks in EL:Fire receive the DS pushdown when casting 906 at a target surrounded by a circle of flickering flames?

Mark

{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|Chromatic Circle (502) has been released. When cast, a target is surrounded by a circle of elements and must ward against the spell. Failure to do will result in elemental damage. The caster's attunement determines the type of element used. Based upon the element used, the caster's Elemental Lore training will then cause the target to be vulnerable (a Defensive Strength penalty) to follow up bolt attacks of the same element. Specifically, a fire attuned wizard will use their Elemental Lore, Fire training to lower the target's DS against Minor Fire (906) and Major Fire (908). The DS penalty is calculated as (2 * seed 1 summation), such that at 55 lore ranks, it results in -20 DS for the target. The vulnerability lasts for 15 seconds or 2 attacks. In addition, weapon attacks enhanced by the Elemental Blade (411) spell that also match the same element as 502 will also cause the target to suffer the same DS penalty.
|-
|GameMaster Estild
|}
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1012
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 09/18/2015 04:35 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|SPYRIDONM1
|-
|Estild, can you please verify if attunement is a requirement to gain the DS penalty or is it only necessary to have lore ranks that match the elemental damage type. E.g. will a non-attuned wizard with 20 ranks in EL:Fire receive the DS pushdown when casting 906 at a target surrounded by a circle of flickering flames?
|}

No, you do not have to be attuned to any specific element to gain the lore bonus. If you're not attuned or have it set to random, it just means you have to have elemental lore training in whatever element is randomly selected.

GameMaster Estild
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1013
| author = KEITHOBAD
| date = on 09/18/2015 04:39 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
Looks like it's capped at 35 damage + crit from the little bit of testing I've done.
302 is capped at 45 according to the wiki.

10 damage is small or 25% difference is big, depending on if you're a glass-empty kinda guy or not I imagine. (I happen to think that's close)

I'm not sure 702 even has a cap, I've seen some pretty high numbers come from that one.

''>Massive internal disruption for 171 points of damage!''

Is on the wiki, for example. Not entirely sure why there's such a huge disparity there, though I do think the utility aspect of 702 is probably slightly worse (bane gets 5% to insta-kill, we get the DS thing).

I like the 502 lore-effect, even if it is not super useful to me as a warmage. Fire mages seem set to get the best mileage, followed by maybe earth and lightning.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1014
| author = LALAKERCLAN
| date = on 09/18/2015 04:42 PM PDT
| subject = Re: new commands
}}
<br>
To my knowledge 302 isn't capped at 35 initial damage. Is that incorrect? How close is "very close?" Cause it doesn't feel close based on what happens when I get warded with 302.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1015
| author = CIRCADIANZEBRA
| date = on 09/18/2015 04:51 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|I like the 502 lore-effect, even if it is not super useful to me as a warmage. Fire mages seem set to get the best mileage, followed by maybe earth and lightning.
|-
|KEITHOBAD
|}

I think this could be super useful to a warmage, but it really depends on what kind of gear you're using and if 411 is a huge step down in AS over your current weapon. Thinking about it, I'm pretty sure that ranged warmages come out on top of this one, because good bow plus e-bladed arrows (unless the e-bladed arrows don't get the DS pushdown; has anyone tested this or would they like to?). I think 411 could use a tweak to really take off for this. Allow it to be used to give enchanted weapons flares without the 4x boost. -20 DS for 55 ranks of lore and 1 mana per swing seems like a pretty good deal.

It does seem like fire mages will see a really big boost through the early and mid levels when Minor Fire is a good option (and if you can get the lingering damage, all the better for efficiency). But when 510 and 910 start being more useable, I think it will be a toss up.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1016
| author = SPYRIDONM1
| date = on 09/18/2015 05:44 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
''>No, you do not have to be attuned to any specific element to gain the lore bonus. If you're not attuned or have it set to random, it just means you have to have elemental lore training in whatever element is randomly selected. -- GameMaster Estild''

Thanks for the clarification.

Mark
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1017
| author = THROGG
| date = on 09/18/2015 08:34 PM PDT
| subject = Re: new commands
}}
<br>
I'm still a bit confused. Incant still seems to work with some spells, some need evoke. With other spells, Incant and Evoke alone targets yourself, for no apparent reason I can see. So, does using the macro Prep XXX\revoke target\r now work with all spells and avoid complications?
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1018
| author = MIGHTONS
| date = on 09/18/2015 09:16 PM PDT
| subject = Re: new commands
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|I'm still a bit confused. Incant still seems to work with some spells, some need evoke. With other spells, Incant and Evoke alone targets yourself, for no apparent reason I can see. So, does using the macro Prep XXX\revoke target\r now work with all spells and avoid complications?
|}

The command EVOKE TARGET mimics the auto-target feature of INCANT. So if your target is currently clear, and you're in a room full of mobs, PREP 505 -> EVOKE TARGET will automatically select one of the mobs and cast Tonis-bolt at them. If you have a current target already, the same command will Tonis-bolt the target. So basically:

INCANT 505 casts Hand of Tonis (warding version) using the targeting system.
PREP 505 -> CAST TARGET is identical to INCANT 505

PREP 505 -> EVOKE TARGET casts Tonis-bolt using the targeting system.

PREP 505 -> EVOKE casts Tonis-bolt at yourself.
PREP 505 -> CAST casts Hand of Tonis at yourself.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1019
| author = BLACKKOBOLD
| date = on 09/19/2015 08:24 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
Where major shock makes sense as far as mana constraints go, I'm not sure I see 502 being particularly useful. Bolt DS on like level targets can vary by hundreds of points at later levels. What is 20 DS at that point? And you have to use a low damage spell to initiate the effect, which adds risk and time. All you really save is a small amount of mana. I Don't see a worthwhile trade-off here for a wizard who has the mana for major shock.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1020
| author = CIRCADIANZEBRA
| date = on 09/19/2015 08:53 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|Where major shock makes sense as far as mana constraints go, I'm not sure I see 502 being particularly useful. Bolt DS on like level targets can vary by hundreds of points at later levels. What is 20 DS at that point? And you have to use a low damage spell to initiate the effect, which adds risk and time. All you really save is a small amount of mana. I Don't see a worthwhile trade-off here for a wizard who has the mana for major shock.
|-
|Taverkin
|}

Okay, I'm not usually one for digging into the math too hardcore so correct me if I'm wrong. But 20 added to the endroll against chain, the worst DF for 910, would add 9 damage, bumping it an additional crit rank before randomization.

It's the same damage addition for scale and plate, which is a crit bump for scale, but not plate in all cases (though it could be, I'm not statically inclined enough to calculate how often). Against leather it's 12 extra points, which is 2 crit ranks.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1021
| author = KEITHOBAD
| date = on 09/19/2015 10:25 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
It might depend on the critter also. How super-dangerous the situation is while sitting in guarded would have something to do with it.

I heard someone talking on LNET last night saying they were pretty happy with the mana efficiency they were getting using it primarily without even going for the lore effect. They also liked being able to stay in guarded stance.

I generally don't think of the bolting stance requirements as much of a risk but they seemed pretty happy to stay in guarded and plink away to save some mana. I think this circles back to my first point where it really matters what you're fighting. Anything likely to disarm/tackle/etc.. you really need to drop ASAP and can't be fiddling around with this type of spell.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1022
| author = CANDIDE
| date = on 09/19/2015 11:10 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
I would like this spell to have consistent and higher disable/hinder/stun percentage effect possibilities to make up for the lack of damage. That with the DS lowering will make it a suitable spell for setup spell progression for warmages and bolters. IMO. Doesn't need the instant kill of 302 or the higher damage possibilities of 702. If 502 is too low for that move slow to here and put this spell there.

GBB
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1023
| author = DRUMPEL
| date = on 09/19/2015 11:35 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
''>>Where major shock makes sense as far as mana constraints go, I'm not sure I see 502 being particularly useful. Bolt DS on like level targets can vary by hundreds of points at later levels. What is 20 DS at that point? And you have to use a low damage spell to initiate the effect, which adds risk and time. All you really save is a small amount of mana. I Don't see a worthwhile trade-off here for a wizard who has the mana for major shock. ''

While it's not terribly impressive for the initial damage in higher hunting ground areas, I do enjoy the DS push down it gives my wizard. 124 ranks of Earth Lore, I drop the target's DS by -30 for a follow up of Hurl Boulder.

It would be fun to allow an area cast version of 502, then you could follow up with a cone spell.

-Drumpel
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1024
| author = BALEKIA
| date = on 09/19/2015 12:22 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
I do have one critique, but it's actually less about 502 itself and more about an imbalance in the spell list as more lore effects are being added.

Is there any way that Water mages can get a high DF single target spell that's on par with Minor Fire/Hurl Boulder/Major Shock. Even if it's just "Major Water" and you evoke 903 into it? The reason Major Cold doesn't work (since I know some will proffer it) is that Major Cold, like Major fire (but unlock Major shock, oddly enough) is a Ball spell. As such, it doesn't have a comparable Single target DF. Minor fire suffers from the same issue, but it's a bit more slight and fire has other damage adding effects from the lore that close the gap a little.

Eventually, it would be great if eventually Major Shock could be renamed something like lightning bolt, and a 17XX spell introduced as Major Shock, retooled into a ball spell (just for consistency) that can be evoked off of 901.


I have Zero concern if this just ends up being a direct clone of a spell moved into the 17XX circle to give access, which should make for a balanced addition and not be too disruptive.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1025
| author = KRAKII
| date = on 09/19/2015 12:37 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
I would swear I just recently made a suggestion to help with splashy-spells, like "calculate possible splashes as usual, but instead give ALL the flaring splashes to the target hit in the first place." A half-dozen free crit results on the same target would be a nice little boost to Major Cold....
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1026
| author = LALAKERCLAN
| date = on 09/19/2015 12:51 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
I agree. 502 falls behind 302 and 702 for damage (particularly in the latter case). I've been asking for damage increase, but failing that, enhanced utility would also be good. If it's not intended to be used as a primary hunting spell, and it's only so-so when it comes to utility, then what does this really do for us?
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1027
| author = BLACKKOBOLD
| date = on 09/19/2015 02:03 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
''

''

There is some math here, but it's more the way the system works that makes this effect worth less than it may appear at face value.

First, although -20 DS will potentially add 1-3 critical ranks, these ranks apply prior to randomization. That means that in the case of an unarmored target, you only have a chance to receive the maximum benefit in critical rank increase if the roll is between +101-+140. Above +140, the extra 20 points on the roll due to -20 DS is essentially wasted because the result is pushed above a rank 9 critical. The margin is wider for heavier armors: +252-+328. Prior to +252 it's possibly an extra crit rank, beyond +328 it's just an extra 9 raw damage. But, of course, that wider margin also means the relative impact of those potential critical ranks is worth less than it is on lighter armors.

Next, consider where it matters most. Only on hits to a critical kill area and only if the critical rank is actually increased from a non-fatal to a fatal rank. This is a VERY small subset of possible outcomes.

And finally, consider the opportunity cost. A low level caster using low mana spells with a chance to miss might find this spell useful because the damage from 502 would likely rival the usual outcomes from spells like 901 or 903 when you have less than +200 end results. In that case there is no opportunity cost. The alternatives you would have used don't produce a great deal more damage and aren't really any safer or more reliable due to the miss rate. But beyond the very low end this is not how bolt spells work. We typically have very little difficulty actually striking the target for what could be considered decent or even incredible damage.

In this scenario, the opportunity cost is much higher. Using 502 presents increased risk, increased time to kill, and only saves me a few points of mana assuming the extra time/risk doesn't result in more mana expenditure or worse.

The way I see it, the 502 effect would need to overcome that opportunity cost. There is no real scenario I can think of where it would be a better idea to use 502 for the -20 DS effect and then finish with 910. If 910 is unreliable, using 502 betting on -20 DS making the difference on a cast of 910 is like praying to win the lottery. Good luck with that!

So what do I suggest? Honestly, I don't know how you fix this. It all goes back to the basic problem with bolts. They already hit super hard, but are so unreliable it balances out. That's why aiming is a tricky subject. How would bolts have to change to accommodate the ability to aim with them? It's the same issue. How do you balance the opportunity cost of an effect like 502 such that it makes it worthwhile to use it in place of a bolt spell? If I'm casting 4 casts of major shock to kill on average, that -20 DS is very unlikely to be worth the 100+ damage, massive stun, and chance of critical kill that just using major shock provides.

~Taverkin
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1028
| author = BALEKIA
| date = on 09/19/2015 02:24 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
Honestly, I can agree with you Tav, the lore effect isn't as good as it first appears, but then again it's not like it's bad. Like most lore effects, it's a little leg up in some situations.

I'm more with increasing the damage a little bit to increase the viability of the spell as a filler. It sounds like the idea is that a CS Wizard would immolate, and then without a kill, you can use 502 to finish off the target over 2-3 cast cycles without needing to go for another full-on immolate. That way, you have a viable option to kill a creature without switching to bolts (which forces the wizard into an atypical training scenario, forced to use both Bolts and CS casting, most of the time it's more of a choice for other classes). As such, if the expected # of casts to kill a creature is more than 3, or more than 40 mana, you're outside the realm of other classes from what I've seen.

So yeah, the lore effect is cool, and for some people/builds it might be good, but it should be, as all lore effects, not considered a primary portion of the spell, which makes the damage a little low. It probably doesn't need to be as open-endedly high as 702 (which is possibly too powerful in it's own right... 1 unbounded damage cycle, a crit damage cycle, AND a seed one summation to disrupt a spell for 2 mana?), but it's not an unreasonable request to ask for the maximum damage cap to be bumped up slightly (even if the formula isn't changed)
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1029
| author = CIRCADIANZEBRA
| date = on 09/19/2015 03:02 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|First, although -20 DS will potentially add 1-3 critical ranks, these ranks apply prior to randomization. That means that in the case of an unarmored target, you only have a chance to receive the maximum benefit in critical rank increase if the roll is between +101-+140. Above +140, the extra 20 points on the roll due to -20 DS is essentially wasted because the result is pushed above a rank 9 critical. The margin is wider for heavier armors: +252-+328. Prior to +252 it's possibly an extra crit rank, beyond +328 it's just an extra 9 raw damage. But, of course, that wider margin also means the relative impact of those potential critical ranks is worth less than it is on lighter armors.
|-
|Taverkin
|}

I can certainly see that, and randomization makes anything like this a bit of a downer anyway. But by the time these concerns start cropping up more frequently, and especially as a character approaches cap, the expectation is that there will be more than a -20 to DS, and a higher damage factor as a result of more ranks in the respective lore. Assuming a focused path, it's 120 ranks for -30 DS, and fully doubled at cap is almost -40 DS without enhancives being factored in.

I'm not saying it couldn't use some work as a set up spell, where it is a significant risk (would an extra chance to stun or simply a higher damage cap make up for that?). But there is a lot of reward to be had there. Moving away from bolting and looking at a warmage, how much is 20-40 AS worth from level 50 to cap? This really calls for a tweak to 411 to allow temporary flares on enchanted weapons, or at least for the DS pushdown to function for a flaring weapon weilded by the caster. I would prefer that 411 get the tweak, as it seems like the more logical solution.
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1030
| author = BLACKKOBOLD
| date = on 09/19/2015 03:37 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
No. It isn't "bad". It's just one of many additions that could have been more relevant if the design took into account the specific issues facing bolt spells, the wizard class, and individual spell designs. The ELR is full of examples of this.

It's frustrating. You wait years for change, and what you get is "not bad", but I wish more of it were things I want and need as opposed to "oh, look what I have a chance to do with earth lore now - that's. ..nice."
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1032
| author = DOUG
| date = on 09/20/2015 08:45 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
''>>In this scenario, the opportunity cost is much higher. Using 502 presents increased risk, increased time to kill, and only saves me a few points of mana assuming the extra time/risk doesn't result in more mana expenditure or worse.''

So I see a lot of comparisons being lofted back and forth. I think I have a question - do we really think a 2 mana / 2nd order spell should always be efficiently useful throughout a 100 level game?

I actually think I have another question - do we really think this spell isn't useful to a non-solo wizard at just about any point in the game?

I have a couple points, too - betcha can't guess what they are! Well, here's one.

''>> It's just one of many additions that could have been more relevant if the design took into account the specific issues facing bolt spells, the wizard class, and individual spell designs. The ELR is full of examples of this. ''

I can get behind this statement, but I think it's important that we understand the behavior this implies. As each passing spell / lore entanglement is announced, we become more and more critical because we have yet to see anything that is going to tackle this particular set of issues. So it becomes harder and harder to accept each discrete change for the value it might bring, as that particular 'need' is left completely unaddressed.

Though, if I were going to improve the crit randomization / bolt challenge facing wizards, I would not choose to do so in a lore review. There are other / better places to dramatically affect this. So, yes - none of the ELR changes are tackling this head-on. And I'm ok with that. I just want to know what will.

Doug
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1033
| author = MDEVEAU
| date = on 09/20/2015 09:02 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|
|-
|I can get behind this statement, but I think it's important that we understand the behavior this implies. As each passing spell / lore entanglement is announced, we become more and more critical because we have yet to see anything that is going to tackle this particular set of issues. So it becomes harder and harder to accept each discrete change for the value it might bring, as that particular 'need' is left completely unaddressed.
|-
|
|-
|Though, if I were going to improve the crit randomization / bolt challenge facing wizards, I would not choose to do so in a lore review. There are other / better places to dramatically affect this. So, yes - none of the ELR changes are tackling this head-on. And I'm ok with that. I just want to know what will.
|-
|
|-
|Doug
|}

Understandable. However, the scenario exists primarily because it seems counter intuitive to spend development and implementation resources on ELR when a number of them are being implemented based on spells which need to be reviewed in the first place thus giving the impression of wasted efforts (especially in light of the up-and-coming modification (haste, rapid fire, immolation) to wizards. The issues with wizards should have been addressed prior to rolling out ELR and a majority of the "critque" would have been completely avoided.
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1034
| author = DOUG
| date = on 09/20/2015 09:37 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
''>>. . . the scenario exists primarily because it seems counter intuitive to spend development and implementation resources on ELR when a number of them are being implemented based on spells which need to be reviewed in the first place thus giving the impression of wasted efforts (especially in light of the up-and-coming modification (haste, rapid fire, immolation) to wizards. The issues with wizards should have been addressed prior to rolling out ELR and a majority of the "critque" would have been completely avoided.''

TL;DR - We have some good changes, and we're forewarned there is a necessary tuning yet ahead of us. We're striving while we have the attention of the Dev team to make some of these changes correlate to challenges that do exist and / or may be exacerbated by the proposals as we understand them. More often than not, though, I feel we're 'talking past one another'.

This is another statement I can easily get behind, MDEVEAU - with one exception: Use of the term 'should' implies either a purely me-centric position (done for me, rather than for other reasons), or it implies an understanding of deeper issues that the game's designers are facing and brings up what might be a missed prioritization. I'm not sure that any of we players can actually strongly assert we're in that second implied position - and yes, I would like to think that's where I live! I just don't know that it's accurate.

There are three positions taken up by the Dev team (and supported by Wyrom, I believe) and two overwhelming positions taken up by players, including me, that keep echoing in my mind every time I try to assess the purpose (weal or woe) of any announced change:

1) Dev - we're going to do ELR! ''This clearly should be a yay, having been on the table for 7 plus years.''
2) Dev - we're going to tune three spells that for the good of the overall game (now to future). ''This clearly feels bad, since there is a long and storied history of these spells in the profession's overall development paths.''
3) Dev - we're not doing a top-down spell review or a complete profession(s) review at this stage. ''This clearly feels like a gap because there are several well-reasoned positions about how point 2 interplays with general profession game-play. I believe (please correct if inaccurate) that most of our (certainly most of my) feedback falls into this category.''

versus

A) Players - This future is too uncertain, given the three spells targeted for tuning and the broad issues as we the players see them. ''Mass 'confusion' and pointed 'critique' ensues as the GMs undertake the Sisyphean Task of trying their best to deliver desirable changes within the parameters of good balanced game play as they see the matter.''
B) Players - We (can I say that here? 0;) are not seeing any true benefit in any of the changes delivered that will help the profession and ensure a healthy / vibrant future. ''For some of 'us', we're less concerned about the direct correlation of implemented change to issue addressed, and so these changes are good. For others of 'us', we're very concerned about that murky future and each opportunity 'squandered' to get something into place, which increases our angst.''

Case in point - I like the 502 change, I think it adds to the depth of the game. It may be useful to the war-mage, definitely helps out in the first third of the game for all wizards, and may add benefit in groups. But it does little(?) to address the deeper issues of bolting wizards. I just happen to think it shouldn't.

What I want to know is - what will? Oh, and when would be nice, too. :)

Doug
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1035
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 09/20/2015 10:30 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
This spell is awesome.

.

.

.

.

.

.

With Rapid Fire.

~ Methais
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1036
| author = BALEKIA
| date = on 09/20/2015 10:42 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
''>> So I see a lot of comparisons being lofted back and forth. I think I have a question - do we really think a 2 mana / 2nd order spell should always be efficiently useful throughout a 100 level game?''

For most people, the short answer is probably yes actually. In general, having an ability that you only use for a bit but then becomes dead is viewed unfavorably in most game design. Additionally, the GM's themselves have expressed that they'd like for each spell to have a use and find a place for at least some set of players. The good thing so far is that most players haven't responded that the spell is completely off the mark, but rather just needs some tweaking to be better later on. If a younger wizard needs the bolt AS, they're unlikely to be reliably warding, nor will they have large lore pools, so right now we're just having a hard time finding the intended usage of the spell. For a higher level wizard, with heavy lore, since the wizard can likely always hit, it's difficult to see the bonus of the extra AS.

Considering other X01 and X02 spells, plenty of them are useful and efficient at any level. Sure, they may not be the nuke spells, but pretty much all of them could be part of a sensible combat plan. However, so far, without a little extra punch or a little extra lore effect, it's hard to see how 502 fits into a plan. People are just trying to figure it out.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1037
| author = DOUG
| date = on 09/20/2015 11:34 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
''>> In general, having an ability that you only use for a bit but then becomes dead is viewed unfavorably in most game design. Additionally, the GM's themselves have expressed that they'd like for each spell to have a use and find a place for at least some set of players.''

Yeah, I guess I should clarify I'm not suggesting the damage situation be 'acceptable'. But - 'becomes dead' is not the same as 'useful but not efficient'. 'Efficiently useful' likewise doesn't imply that there may be points where it might be useful - just not as efficient as one might hope.

Let me ask it a different way - how do we make every wizard spell efficiently useful for every wizard in the game both now and in the future?

Doug
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1038
| author = DOUG
| date = on 09/20/2015 11:34 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
Rapid fire - the new old bacon!

Doug
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1039
| author = OBSERVER
| date = on 09/20/2015 11:54 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
As others have noticed, this spell is fairly useful when it is paired with Rapid Fire. Who knows what form the spell will take, but assuming RF starts to have large mana costs associated with it, 502 may continue to shine as a spell which can achieve damage, a stun, and then lower Bolt DS, which can then be instantly followed by the appropriate bolt. I see this as being a potentially strong tactic even at the later stages of the game. Being able to choose the element with which you attack can also be useful late into the game. Creatures with resistances or outright immunities can be targeted with their elemental weakness, for instance.

Versatility is a strength in of itself, and this spell has it in spades.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1040
| author = BALEKIA
| date = on 09/20/2015 12:04 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
''>> Let me ask it a different way - how do we make every wizard spell efficiently useful for every wizard in the game both now and in the future?''

Not sure if we need to get so far as to make it so that the spells are useful for every wizard at once, for instance Strength is of very limited use for a lot of Wizards (encumbrance is nice, but doesn't really factor into the combat equation) but it's a great spell for a very distinct build. So in that vein, the spell works just fine if we can find some build or style of wizard for which it is considered a staple spell. The same can be said for Elemental focus. For some wizards, it's a terrible spell (Warmages) but for quite a lot of wizards, it's great.

I think where the current difficulties are coming from is that it sits at the intersection of both Warding and Bolting builds, but for neither does it appear, so far, to be a spell that they'll be tempted to use. The discussion right now is to figure out what it would take to get people using the spell while not making it imbalanced, hence why people are comparing it to other X02 spells as well as discussing how they'd use it in a hunt.

Overall, I'm just responding to your first comment, about if every X02 spell should be efficient for all levels, that yes, they probably should be, and in fact almost all of them are (which is helped by them mostly being defensive spells but still, good for all levels).

Now, to answer THIS question, how to make the spell efficiently useful is to use it as a counter to some of the killing power reduction of Immolate. If 3-4 Casts is a "Reasonable" amount of time to kill an enemy, then Immolate + 2X 502 should have a reasonable chance to HP kill a target. If it doesn't, then combat is balanced to either be too costly (too many immolates) or too long (too many 502's). If the expectation is MORE than 3-4 casts to a kill, then we have a much larger discussion, since 9-12 seconds is not an unattainable time to kill for any class, so that's where the question of "why wizards?" enters.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1041
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 09/20/2015 12:08 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
''>> Versatility is a strength in of itself, and this spell has it in spades. ''

I find the versatility rather lacking for me as I am unable to select a specific element when casting it (without attunement). I did a test cast of it in the temple for the first time, got lightning which then reflected back and injured me, and decided to write the spell off (at least for my current hunting area).

If there was a way to select the specific element being cast outside of attunement, then I might agree with your assessment on the spells versatility. Unless maybe I missed a post where the spell was updated to allow elemental selection (without attunement)?

-- Robert

Fluke in the programming, or just your average everyday Konacode? ~ Konacon
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1042
| author = DOUG
| date = on 09/20/2015 12:19 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
I'm sorry, BALEKIA - I feel I must have missed a post or something.

I thought 502 was being compared to 702 and 302 in terms of damage? Neither of those are defensive (unless one takes that 'best defense is a strong offense' position. ;)

I think the discussion about equitable damage is relevant.

I don't believe 702 and 302 are the 'go-to' spells in general (efficient) at all levels in all points of the game for all sorcerers or clerics respectively.

And using that as an anchor on one end of the spectrum, I don't know why we would be suggesting 502 be 'that spell' for wizards.

So - I support the damage cap discussion because I find it relevant. The fact that a capped wizard cannot efficiently use this spell is not really a viable position to take, in my view. I believe I've explained why I perceive it to be happening, though.

''>>I think where the current difficulties are coming from is that it sits at the intersection of both Warding and Bolting builds''

Perhaps. But I'm not aware of any 'warding' builds. I'm aware of an immolation build. I see this as two distinct conversations. I think it could be a lot of fun to create that category - is that what we're attempting to do here? Because if so, the problems are a bit greater than just this one spell. . .

Doug
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1043
| author = CIRCADIANZEBRA
| date = on 09/20/2015 12:26 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|If there was a way to select the specific element being cast outside of attunement, then I might agree with your assessment on the spells versatility. Unless maybe I missed a post where the spell was updated to allow elemental selection (without attunement)?
|-
|-- Robert
|}

It hasn't, and I really feel like it should. There's already a built in lore requirement to get the DS pushdown, so selecting the element of the spell doesn't seem out of line.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1044
| author = MDEVEAU
| date = on 09/20/2015 12:29 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
And as an aside, I forgot to mention that I really like 502 and thought its intent was well designed, but failed to miss part of the mark (its a great low-level warding spell) with lore seed. As people have mentioned, the DS pushdown is primarily relevant either at low to mid levels or in cases with a high investment of lore (which usually precludes the former) which seems paradoxically competing.
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{{saved-post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = BLACKKOBOLD
| date = on 09/20/2015 12:51 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
Anything may be justified as part of a whole, Doug. But when I look at GS design I don't see a coherent plan.

Is 502 intended for low level and war mage use only? From the current design we could certainly come to that conclusion. But does that feel like a deliberate decision or more like a coincidence?

Would it not make sense to use percentages to ensure that abilities like this bolt DS reduction scale to remain useful later on? Or add unlockable additions at the high end to the same effect? Or is the seed table just the perfect design and I'm all wrong about this?
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1046
| author = BALEKIA
| date = on 09/20/2015 12:55 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
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Doug, I honestly think we're probably saying almost the same thing, just coming at it from different angles.
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{{saved-post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = DOUG
| date = on 09/20/2015 01:04 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
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''>>But when I look at GS design I don't see a coherent plan.''

And this - right here - is what I submit is our biggest challenge to overcome. For all the discourse on desires, expectations, questions, implementations. . . it hasn't ever been a significant priority (in my view!) to keep players and staff aligned with what the future state is going to be.

But - that's likely even a bigger issue than just getting spell circles mapped out.

''>>Would it not make sense to use percentages to ensure that abilities like this bolt DS reduction scale to remain useful later on? Or add unlockable additions at the high end to the same effect? Or is the seed table just the perfect design and I'm all wrong about this? ''

Nope, nope and nope! Well, ok, maybe. Here's the trick (as I understand it), there shouldn't be any Dire Straits 'Money for Nothing' going on here. But it's really hard to do the whole 'require continued training', but 'diminish value of the training to scale with the 5-4-3-2-1 concept', etc.

It might actually be better to just say we've carried the current implementation as far as it can be carried - and work together on a whole new framework with entirely new skills / costs / scaling. That - that is a bit ambitious. There are also a great number of previous and current very tenured players who would welcome (I think) this approach.

Or, we might instead just make a 'next threshold' type spell - put it at 545, and make it exactly this but for levels 75 to 100 in the game. That's not a great design either - but might be closer to the mark.

Dunno - spitballing at this point, I think. I mean, I understand the perspective, Tav. Wouldn't want to unravel the tapestry faster than we can stitch it back up, though.

Doug
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{{saved-post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1048
| author = DOUG
| date = on 09/20/2015 01:05 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
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''>>Doug, I honestly think we're probably saying almost the same thing''

I think you may be right. . . We need a new slogan - 'Nuances kill!'

Doug
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1049
| author = LALAKERCLAN
| date = on 09/20/2015 07:03 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
502's only real "problem" is that its base damage is capped too low/the fact that the crit cannot be improved through lore training.

At low levels the lore effect may be of benefit to certain mages. Once my bolt AS starts to reliably beat critter bolt DS, plus you start getting other disablers to shine in the form of 410, 912, or if your CS is good enough, 501, then I start to ask myself, "what is the purpose of this spell?"

Some have responded "well maybe there is no purpose for you anymore, it's a dead spell for wizards past level 30/40, and that's OK." I don't know, maybe it is ok for some, but I don't think any profession should have any "dead" spells. Situational, sure, but not dead. And that's what 502 sort of feels like right now in its current form -- a spell that will be "dead" to end-game mages.

Think about this: the "benefit" you get from casting 502 as a set-up spell eventually slides into, as Taverkin pointed out, an actual "cost." It's an opportunity cost, because you were better off just bolting or doing something else to handle your adversary.

I have three ideas how to improve the spell.

1) Increase the initial damage cap. It should at least match 302. It should come within shouting distance of 702.

2) Make each elemental crit do a little something-something in addition to the DS debuff with further lore training.

By way of example:

Lightning could enhance the effect of the Stun Shock (so that if you follow-up with the intended bolt combinations, Stun Shock actually becomes a really good status effect instead of its plink-plink uselessness). Or, that it extends the duration of stuns that follow (from any source) making it great for groups as well.

Water could improve subsequent crit-ranks the next water spell (you're DROWNING your target with damage!). I've always viewed water as an element that is fickle, sometimes deadly, sometimes healthy, etc. Hence I associate water more with crits than anything.

Fire could improve subsequent RT from the next EVOKE'd of Immolate; or give an improved chance of a subsequent crit cycle with Immolate; making it a great set-up for an Immolate ("CS") Wizard.

Earth could improve DF of further earth spells, or maybe take a page from 702 and strip/disable spells, or give it a chance to root/bind the target, reducing their AS/ability to swing/maneuver. That feels "earthy" to me.

These are just some ideas. The idea would be that after a certain lore threshold (50 ranks?) you could get these additional benefits and really make 502 worth casting before you throw your favorite bolt (or cast your warding Nuke).

3) Make lores improve the crit cycle. It's a less fun/elegant solution but would also make 502 useful as a primary hunting spell for a dedicated wizard. 100 ranks to guarantee improve crit rank doesn't seem unfair. 200 ranks to improve it again. High level wizards could (if trained the CS for it) get a lot of mileage out of this as a hunting spell even if they didn't want to throw 200 ranks into fire lore and be an Immolate wizard. You could potentially have a "water" CS wizard that used 502. It could open up new training builds.
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{{saved-post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1050
| author = BLACKKOBOLD
| date = on 09/21/2015 10:50 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
Yeah, that opportunity cost thing is a big issue for the GS combat system. It seems like we're always talking about how to make such and such irrelevant spell practically useful and the only thing we can seem to agree on is that some spells obviate the need for other spells. Such was the case with immolate. How are you going to beat a spell that incapacitates, does a ton of damage, and has a high kill rate? What would be the point of casting a lesser kill spell that either doesn't kill as well or leaves you vulnerable? Why cast a disabler when immolate is its own disabler? The only answer is to nerf immolate, right?

Sort of.

I think this is really just a symptom of a larger problem. Consider the way RT is applied. Casting any spell induces 3s RT, which locks us out of casting any other spell for the duration. So no matter the relative power of the spell, the time requirement is the same. That's a pretty big barrier to overcome, if you think about it.

Over in WoW, I've been playing a fury warrior. It's a fairly straightforward style. Your biggest damage dealer is called "execute". Normally, you can only use it if the target is low on health. But with a talent called "sudden death" your normal attacks have a chance on hit to allow a free execute regardless of the target's health. So you have this big damage dealer, but it's contingent upon special conditions: either a chance on hit from another attack or the target being below a certain health percentage. The ability also has a resource cost (warriors in WoW use a resource called "rage", which builds during combat via normal attacks and some specials).

The other abilities I have available work in similar ways. I have a weak attack called "bloodthirst" that restores a small amount of health, but has a high critical rate and criticals with bloodthirst cause other effects like enrage, which grants rage and increases all damage dealt for several seconds. It can also unlock the free use of other, stronger attacks.

You get the idea. It's impossible to spam the same attack over and over, and many of the stronger attacks are limited. Either you can't access them on demand, but rather as a chance on hit from something else, or they're limited by resources or other conditions. There's a lot of play between the various abilities, but you never find yourself in a situation where a less powerful ability is useless because you're always able to use something that works better in every way and shares the same cost.

This sort of system also has the benefit of removing the long pauses between attacks. Since you do have to use a range of abilities and you can't spam the most powerful attack over and over, you can use abilities more quickly.

I know it's not popular to mention WoW over here, and as usual I'm not suggesting GS become a WoW clone. I'm only pointing out a flaw in our combat system where they have developed various solutions. It may not be the perfect solution or the only way to approach the problem, but I figure some of these ideas would work better than what we currently have. Redundant spells, spells that become useless past a certain level, spells which are completely overshadowed by other spells and are therefore worthless, etc.

~Taverkin
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1051
| author = KEITHOBAD
| date = on 09/21/2015 10:58 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
Maybe the best solution to immolate would have been a cooldown rather than nerfing it. Maybe make it so you can't immolate a target that is already been immolated (ie: "He is already on fire!" message). That way it can still be an awesome spell, but you need to supplement it with other actions as well.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1052
| author = KRAKII
| date = on 09/21/2015 11:24 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
"<WoW mechanics>" -- Taverkin

Absolutely!

So all spells should have a cooldown of 1.5x###s, where ### == their spell level. 19th level == 30s for Immolate, for example.

Then, when you cast lower-level spells of that spell-type's affected Lore, there's a chance to unlock those cooling-down spells XXX seconds early!

.

.

Fundamentally, the reason the WoW mechanics differs from ours is that here, the only limit on casting your Big Powerful Spell time after time after time, is how much mana you have. (And there are ways to work with that, too.) Over there, the reason the stuff interlocks like that, with release thresholds and unlocking and so on, is because you can NOT do the Big Most Powerful time after time. That's WHY the system works, and also HOW it works.

I was still in an Advanced D&D campaign (no, not 2nd edition, or whatever; "AD&D"; yeah, the old hardcover books that you liked when you were a kid) when I started GemStone, and it was a pain in the neck having to choose my spells-per-day and what do I load up and...
Then login here over the weekend, and cast any-damn-thing I feel like, if I have the mana for it.
I like the free-flowing way we have here, better.

The only problem is, some spells/weapons become the obvious one to use (lance, claidhmore, Cone/Disrupt in a crowd, Immolate/Implode single-target, and so on) so there need to be downsides.

I like the solution they came up with for Immolate: You can disable (like when hunting in a party, or if you have high CS but not as much AS with bolts) OR you can try for the kill (but a ''failed'' kill-attempt will no longer come with "now with free additional disabler" as an added bonus).
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1053
| author = LALAKERCLAN
| date = on 09/21/2015 12:40 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
Aren't they also nerfing Immolate's killing potential at high levels too though?

One of the reasons I am a little bummed about the future state of wizards is that we are being outright nerfed. Not changed, just nerfed. They're taking some of the best things we have, making them objectively worse, and not giving anything else back that really compensates for that loss of power.

I would like to see many more spell interactions/combos that become quite powerful when pulled off. After all, if you have to cast 2-3 spells to get the desired effect, that effect has to be better than what you gave up doing (spamming Immolate, for example). 502 followed by 512 then 903 for a water Mage should be devastating - just as devastating if not more so than 519, because you just hand to stand there casting 3 spells including one in offensive stance. That's dangerous.

Not all classes have those kinds of combos, I recognize. Many classes happily spam their best spells over and over. Pure bards to my knowledge pretty much just rock sonic disruption morning noon and night with no complaints. Then again if we had a spell like that...it would be nerfed.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1054
| author = BLACKKOBOLD
| date = on 09/21/2015 12:50 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
Right, Krakii. Did we just agree on something? What's going on here?

Getting rid of that static penalty (3s RT) and replacing it with short cooldowns - for example, a 3s individual cooldown with a 1s global cooldown - introduces a reason to use other spells. If I can't cast spell X again but I CAN cast spell Y, then right there I have a reason to do so that didn't exist under the RT system.

Further, if casting spell Y is the only way to unlock spell Z, then it has a distinct purpose beyond anything I can achieve with spell X. And spell Z may be more powerful than spell X, which is more powerful than spell Y, but the fact that I have to cast spell Y to have a chance at casting spell Z balances the power of spell Z. And so on.

No need for redundant spells. No need to balance each spell against every single other spell.

~Taverkin
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1055
| author = KRAKII
| date = on 09/21/2015 01:09 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
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Actually, we didn't agree: I was in SnarkyMode (tm) writing a sarcastic response. :)

I doubt that there would be many people willing to say, "I Only Get One Cast Of This Spell (for some number of seconds)" for every single spell.

.

I ''would'' like to see more spells that work together (like [spirit] Dispel + [elem] Dispel, or fire + water on stone), and the ELR brought out some of this (ED3 with Earth ranks and self-cast of ED1/2/3, soaked targets with Shock spells, and so on), but having 'combo' effects is something that I think GemStone could do very well, and moderately easily.

.

LALakerClan: the most recent info on Immolate that we have is that there are going to be two facets to you spell:
- you can cast it as a disabler (so you light them on fire and they get the RT of rolling around)
OR
- you can try for a lethal cast, going for the death-crit (and if you don't get that far, presumably you will get some lesser crit, as now).

What you WILL NOT get with these latter casts, going forward, is the "oh you got lit on fire!" effect as above, in the disabler. The combination of the two--I try to kill you oops didn't make it go ahead and be RT locked rolling on the ground anyhow--is the "too powerful" degree that they're working on changing.

In addition, one of the changes that has been mentioned is that trying for those lethal casts will be somewhat easier (so lower-level Mages just learning the spell with not much Lore have an easier time), but not so common as has been the case as the very top (where capped Mages with a TON of Fire Lore were pretty much smoking [heh] everything instantly).
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1056
| author = LALAKERCLAN
| date = on 09/21/2015 01:43 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
That is what I thought - the "top end" killing potential of Immolate is being nerfed while the mid-tier wizards will see a buff. I guess that's ok as the "top end" probably referred only to like, Methais. Sucks to be you, bud!

Spell "combinations" working together could also benefit group hunting. Not sure how crucial that is in the long run but any change that encourages players to team up together can only be a good thing, right?
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1057
| author = BRANDTJRT
| date = on 09/21/2015 02:00 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
''>>I would like to see more spells that work together (like [spirit] Dispel + [elem] Dispel, or fire + water on stone), and the ELR brought out some of this (ED3 with Earth ranks and self-cast of ED1/2/3, soaked targets with Shock spells, and so on), but having 'combo' effects is something that I think GemStone could do very well, and moderately easily.''

So many interesting combo possibilities for lesser used spells, too. Ice Patch to root a target to the ground, then Boil Earth to burn them and create a giant expanding cloud of steam for scalding power, for instance.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1058
| author = DOUG
| date = on 09/21/2015 04:05 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
It might be too much in terms of compute cycles (and dev cycles?) to track every time every spell is cast ordering some variance into how long / how often / how soon something may be cast.

But maybe there's a way to bridge the two suggestions together. Mighten it not be worthwhile to have lores unlock the 'special follow-up' on spell combinations, and allow them to fire automatically (decrementing mana of course) even if the soft roundtime counter is active?

Doug
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1059
| author = BLACKKOBOLD
| date = on 09/21/2015 04:06 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
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Well, that's too bad. I don't see how this issue can be resolved under our simplistic system. We've been banGing our heads agAinst the wall on this one for decades.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1060
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 09/22/2015 08:19 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
''>That is what I thought - the "top end" killing potential of Immolate is being nerfed while the mid-tier wizards will see a buff. I guess that's ok as the "top end" probably referred only to like, Methais. Sucks to be you, bud!''

I was the first Immolate mage, but I was far from the only one. But I'm definitely the saddest over the nerf. :(

What wizards need is synergy. Right now we have a handful of good spells, a bunch of mediocre spells that are situational at best and even then still not very good, and then spells that are flat out useless.

The 512 shatter example posted earlier is the kind of stuff we need. There's no reason why we shouldn't be able to do stuff like 512 a target (which should completely freeze them, not just their legs to where they can still attack, just saying) and then shatter them with whatever like was suggested.

We have tons of spells that have a ton of potential for things like that that aren't being used. I could post example after example but a) I'm at work and b) It'll probably get ignored anyway.

I doubt a lore review would be sufficient to cover stuff like that, but hopefully staff has become aware that what's really needed is a spell review.

~ Methais
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1061
| author = CANDIDE
| date = on 09/22/2015 08:40 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
Maybe this spell can add a boost other wizard spells. Specifically add damage rounds to things like 917, 519, 514, 435, 415, 409 etc.

GBB
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{{saved-post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1062
| author = CANDIDE
| date = on 09/22/2015 08:13 PM PDT
| subject = Re: new commands
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Awesome. Amazing. Astounding.

I will think of you as Aonacon now. All A's.

GBB
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1063
| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 09/24/2015 05:14 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
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''>Will the alchemy recipes for Spell Store transfer to Chromatic Circle?''

bump question
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1064
| author = JSTEIG
| date = on 09/24/2015 05:37 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
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So what about Coraesine weapons? They have air flares, shouldnt they have the same effect as a 411'd weapon, after casting 502 at a creature? Thanks

Sentral
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1065
| author = KEITHOBAD
| date = on 09/24/2015 06:50 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
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It doesn't work on flaring weapons it works on ebladed weapons, so no. Though that's a change I would welcome, personally.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1066
| author = OBSERVER
| date = on 09/24/2015 09:24 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
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Agreed, flaring weapons (by any means) should take advantage of 502.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1069
| author = ZENDADA
| date = on 09/28/2015 09:59 PM PDT
| subject = 550 - Major Elemental Disjunction
}}
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The Wizard casting this spell could have a chance to counter an offensive AOE spell.

Just a thought.

Chad, player of a few
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{{saved-post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1070
| author = DOUG
| date = on 09/29/2015 12:00 AM PDT
| subject = Re: 550 - Major Elemental Disjunction
}}
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''>>The Wizard casting this spell could have a chance to counter an offensive AOE spell.''

Yep! By reflecting back IN. THE. FACE. of the caster, too.

I'd like to go hang out in front of a Sentry and dare her to cast Implosion. . . would make my day. (Yes, I know. . . but Implosion is still AOE, just targeted when 'focused'.) <dancing really fast>

Doug
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1071
| author = ZENDADA
| date = on 09/29/2015 03:24 PM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!
}}
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This was a nice surprise while hunting. Only problem here is that this character has 0 ranks on EL:E. He does have 24 ranks of EL:A. Just a heads up something funky is going on!

A wood sprite swings a quarter staff at you!
AS: +246 vs DS: +204 with AvD: +23 + d100 roll: +91 = +156
A layer of shifting stone absorbs 6 points of damage!
... and hits for 12 points of damage!
Torn muscle in your right leg!

The stones shifting around you suddenly release a blast of vibrating energy at a wood sprite!

... 5 points of damage!
Blow grazes left arm lightly.

Chad, player of a few
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1072
| author = THROGG
| date = on 09/29/2015 09:40 PM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!
}}
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And that damage! Ooooh, impressive! I'll bet that wood sprite is sorry now that it attacked you.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1073
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 10/01/2015 09:21 AM PDT
| subject = Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!
}}
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''>And that damage! Ooooh, impressive! I'll bet that wood sprite is sorry now that it attacked you. ''

Totally worth the nerfs.

~ Methais
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1074
| author = ZENDADA
| date = on 10/01/2015 08:39 PM PDT
| subject = Re: 550 - Major Elemental Disjunction
}}
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{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|Yep! By reflecting back IN. THE. FACE. of the caster, too.
|-
|
|-
|I'd like to go hang out in front of a Sentry and dare her to cast Implosion. . . would make my day. (Yes, I know. . . but Implosion is still AOE, just targeted when 'focused'.)
|-
|
|-
|Doug
|}

Now that is something I did not think of. Greater Elemental Reflection!

What inspired this idea was Spike Thorn. Such a pain. 550 Greater Elemental Disjunction might counter any LASTING AOE spell such as Spike Thorn or Call Wind. Perhaps that creepy arm spell sorcerers have. To expand a little bit more on this... perhaps it also even dispels any offensive spell cast on the wizard such as Curse, Sounds, Calm, or Bind, off the top of my head. The wizard would have to cast in reaction.

I don't see it as a wearable defense against immediate spells such as Elemental Wave or Boil Earth. But of course that could be a consideration. If it were that powerful if the wizard cast proactively it should have a short duration such as Wizard Shield.

Chad, player of a few
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1075
| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 10/08/2015 10:15 AM PDT
| subject = 502 recipe
}}
<br>
What is the status of this recipe? Is it no longer implemented? Is it all the same except the chant and it casts Chromatic Circle now?
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1076
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 10/22/2015 10:03 PM PDT
| subject = Re: 502 recipe
}}
<br>
It's the exact same recipe, but now will create a clear prismatic wand with 20 charges of 502.

GameMaster Estild
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1077
| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 10/23/2015 08:01 AM PDT
| subject = Re: 502 recipe
}}
<br>
Thanks, Wiki updated.

https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Clear_prismatic_wand
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1078
| author = PFLATS
| date = on 10/28/2015 05:52 AM PDT
| subject = 502 and GOALS
}}
<br>
Just a heads-up: 502 still shows up as "Spell Store" in the character mangler.

... Yes, I just rolled a wizard.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1079
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 10/28/2015 08:48 AM PDT
| subject = Re: 502 and GOALS
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|PFLATS
|-
|Just a heads-up: 502 still shows up as "Spell Store" in the character mangler.
|-
|... Yes, I just rolled a wizard.
|}

I don't believe you!...no one would create a new wizard! (I'll take a look at that issue).

GameMaster Estild
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1080
| author = KRAKII
| date = on 10/28/2015 09:52 AM PDT
| subject = Re: 502 and GOALS
}}
<br>
"I don't believe you!...no one would create a new wizard! (I'll take a look at that issue)." -- GameMaster Estild

.

''''

.

FIXED!

Option to create a character of profession 'Wizard', removed.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1081
| author = PFLATS
| date = on 10/28/2015 12:15 PM PDT
| subject = Re: 502 and GOALS
}}
<br>
''>I don't believe you!...no one would create a new wizard! (I'll take a look at that issue).''

I've heard the class is about to be completely and irreparably destroyed, so I wanted to try it out before that happened.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1082
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 10/28/2015 12:43 PM PDT
| subject = Re: 502 and GOALS
}}
<br>
''>> >I don't believe you!...no one would create a new wizard! (I'll take a look at that issue).''

''>> I've heard the class is about to be completely and irreparably destroyed, so I wanted to try it out before that happened.''

Bazinga!

It had to be said...

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1083
| author = KEITHOBAD
| date = on 10/28/2015 09:33 PM PDT
| subject = Re: 502 and GOALS
}}
<br>
I took that to mean Estild would be working on the issue of people still being willing to roll up a wizard :D
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1084
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 11/05/2015 05:55 PM PST
| subject = 518-Cone of Elements still appears to be broken
}}
<br>
Any chance for Cone of elements to be fixed in the near future. I believe this issue was originally reported about a month back.


''>stance offensive''
You are now in an offensive stance.

''>incant 518 air''
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cone of Elements...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture.
You hurl a powerful lightning bolt at a triton executioner!
AS: +510 vs DS: +313 with AvD: +37 + d100 roll: +34 = +268
... and hit for 128 points of damage!
Horrid jolt of electricity smokes a shoulder blade!
You hurl a powerful lightning bolt at a triton radical!
AS: +510 vs DS: +229 with AvD: +39 + d100 roll: +77 = +397
... and hit for 163 points of damage!
Heavy jolt to back shoots up spine. Sympathetic pains almost as bad.
The triton radical gurgles once and goes still, a wrathful look on his face.
The dully illuminated mantle protecting a triton radical begins to falter, then completely fades away.
A white glow rushes away from a triton radical.
The dull golden nimbus fades from around a triton radical.
The brilliant aura fades away from a triton radical.
The very powerful look leaves a triton radical.
The white light leaves a triton radical.
The warm glow fades from around a triton radical.
A triton radical seems slightly different.
The guiding force leaves a triton radical.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

''>stance defensive''
Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.


Elemental Lore - Air...............| 126 33
Elemental Lore - Earth.............| 105 25
Elemental Lore - Fire..............| 102 24
Elemental Lore - Water.............| 120 30



-- Robert aka Faulkil

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1085
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 11/11/2015 09:09 AM PST
| subject = Re: 518-Cone of Elements still appears to be broken
}}
<br>
Okay. I did some additional testing and it's just the INCANT 518 <element> that is now broken again.

PREP 518 / CAST <element> seems to be working fine.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1086
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 11/11/2015 10:57 AM PST
| subject = Re: 518-Cone of Elements still appears to be broken
}}
<br>
That's always been the case. Yet more tedium.

Also, haste no longer reduces the hard RT from channeled incant.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1087
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 11/11/2015 01:12 PM PST
| subject = Re: 518-Cone of Elements still appears to be broken
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|LADYFLEUR
|-
|Also, haste no longer reduces the hard RT from channeled incant.
|}

That's working as intended and affects all channeling.

GameMaster Estild
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1088
| author = SOURCE
| date = on 11/23/2015 05:31 PM PST
| subject = hey it works
}}
<br>
You swing a knife at a Grimswarm orc wizard!
AS: +532 vs DS: +277 with AvD: +15 + d100 roll: +97 = +367
A layer of shifting stone absorbs 14 points of damage!
... and hit for 48 points of damage!
Awesome shot shatters ribs and punctures lung!

The stones shifting around a Grimswarm orc wizard suddenly release a blast of vibrating energy at you!

... 35 points of damage!
Massive blow to your temple drops you in your tracks!
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1089
| author = DRUMPEL
| date = on 11/23/2015 06:04 PM PST
| subject = Re: hey it works
}}
<br>
Cool! A new way for you to die taking on Grimswarm!

As for my wizard, it's trigged 1x against a creature and it did a whole 3 points of damage to it's finger! Yeah for my over trained in EL:E wizard!.

-Drumpel
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1090
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 12/02/2015 10:00 AM PST
| subject = Re: hey it works
}}
<br>
And what it would probably be the other way around:


A Grimswarm orc wizard swings a knife at you!
AS: +532 vs DS: +277 with AvD: +15 + d100 roll: +97 = +367
A layer of shifting stone absorbs 14 points of damage!
... and hit for 48 points of damage!
Awesome shot shatters ribs and punctures lung!

The stones shifting around you suddenly release a blast of vibrating energy at a Grimswarm wizard!

... 5 points of damage!
Light glance to face. Almost tickles.

~ Methais
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1091
| author = KEITHOBAD
| date = on 12/02/2015 02:24 PM PST
| subject = Re: hey it works
}}
<br>
I would honestly prefer this didn't exist at all. It's got to be at least 100x better for creatures than players considering:
a) Only a subset of player wizards will benefit due to lore/tp constraints, while every NPC wizard will get .5x in EL:E.
b) Player wizards get hit WAY less frequently than NPCs. On an average hunt I'm probably striking an npc ~80 times and getting hit 0-2 times in return.
c) Getting a minor crit on an NPC is of very little value whereas if I get crit & subsequently stunned while in offensive (which is when it would happen, regardless of macro speed) I'm basically screwed.
d) This gives the mistaken impression to non-wizards that 520 might actually have some value :D
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1092
| author = TRINITIS2
| date = on 12/03/2015 02:44 PM PST
| subject = Strange results from 502
}}
<br>
So I've seen this a few times now, and I'm not sure why I'm seeing it :


You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Chromatic Circle...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a cold guardian.
A cold guardian is suddenly surrounded by a circle of flickering flames.
CS: +188 - TD: +129 + CvA: +25 + d100: +17 == +101
Warding failed!
The flickering flames quickly swirl around the guardian, causing 0 points of damage!
... 5 points of damage!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.


So, my thoughts are apparently cold guardians have some type of damage reduction/resistance to fire..how ever I'm not sure why this would be the case. They are ice, fire should hurt them more I'd think? Unless you're going with the whole fire melts the ice, but the ice reforms quickly I guess.

But even still, seeing 0 damage is somewhat annoying.

-Cinto
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1093
| author = DOUG
| date = on 12/03/2015 02:53 PM PST
| subject = Re: Strange results from 502
}}
<br>
They should be, in fact, exceptionally vulnerable to fire.

Does this happen at any indicated result other than 101?

Doug
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1094
| author = TRINITIS2
| date = on 12/03/2015 04:30 PM PST
| subject = Re: Strange results from 502
}}
<br>
''>They should be, in fact, exceptionally vulnerable to fire.''

''>Does this happen at any indicated result other than 101?''

''>Doug''


It's happened to me a hand full of times since I started hunting the area..always on really low ending rolls. I'd say 110 and less if I had to guess. I'll start keeping better track as I see them.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1095
| author = TRINITIS2
| date = on 12/03/2015 04:31 PM PST
| subject = Re: Strange results from 502
}}
<br>
Oh, and I forgot to add it's pretty clear they are not weak to the fire. 502 + being attuned to fire = troll bane. I murder the trolls very quickly. But the guards take a good 5-8 casts to kill (ignoring the casts they ward off).
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1096
| author = KEITHOBAD
| date = on 12/03/2015 05:53 PM PST
| subject = Re: Strange results from 502
}}
<br>
I would say a LOT of the creatures that should be weak against stuff aren't. It's a shame because that would be a nice element to bolting wizards that is sorely lacking in many cases.

Nothing on glatoph is particularly weak against fire that I can tell (other than the usual troll weakness to fire).
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1097
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 12/04/2015 12:12 PM PST
| subject = Re: Strange results from 502
}}
<br>
This issue wasn't unique to cold guardians. It should no longer be possible to deal 0 points of damage.

GameMaster Estild
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1098
| author = CAPTAINREDBEARD
| date = on 12/04/2015 01:06 PM PST
| subject = Re: Strange results from 502
}}
<br>
Has anyone test out 502 and the lightning nerve damage crits Estild posted about? Is that real?
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1099
| author = GS4-CONTEMPLAR
| date = on 12/15/2015 07:08 PM PST
| subject = ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!
}}
<br>
Once again the Wizards of the Guild dug deep into the mysteries of the elements and unlocked one troubling feature of Elemental Focus (513). They found a way see past the fog that obscured their ability to use weapons effectively. No longer will Elemental Focus impede an attack with weapons!

Also while researching the above, the wizards discovered a new facet of the spell previously undiscovered! When the spell is active it will aid in the wizard's ability to "narrow their focus" on a specific target. Each subsequent bolt attack made on the same target will see an increase in their ability to hit that target.

The nitty gritty: The AS penalty for physical attacks has been removed. The "focusing" effect will add +1 AS for each seed 4 Elemental Lore, Fire per bolt attack on the same target, capped at +25 total AS boost. The AS will increase whether or not you actually hit the target, and only while casting bolt spells. Casting at another target removes the "focusing" AS boost.

Casting a non-bolt spell, or general area spells like Elemental Wave (410) or Cone of Elements (518) will not affect the focusing boost.

~Contemplar~
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1100
| author = DAID
| date = on 12/16/2015 02:33 AM PST
| subject = Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!
}}
<br>
''>The AS penalty for physical attacks has been removed.''

Thanks! I know I wasn't the only one asking for this, but it seemed like a nice change for warmages.

The lore bonus also looks quite reasonable I think. The fact that no verb or RT is required for the "focusing" effect is appreciated.


Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog

''>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p''
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1101
| author = GOAT
| date = on 12/16/2015 04:43 AM PST
| subject = Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!
}}
<br>
Very cool.

I don't suppose you had a conversation about extending "narrowed focus" to physical attacks? Seems like it would be a good opportunity to help out soon-to-be-haste-nerfed warmages.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1102
| author = DAID
| date = on 12/16/2015 04:50 AM PST
| subject = Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!
}}
<br>
''>I don't suppose you had a conversation about extending "narrowed focus" to physical attacks? Seems like it would be a good opportunity to help out soon-to-be-haste-nerfed warmages.''

I'm not really sure this spell would be the place for it. Since it doesn't normally give a bonus to physical attacks, it seems hard to justify it giving a lore benefit, particularly under fire, for physical attacks. As a warmage, I'm happy it just doesn't give a penalty now, so that I can use the spell more than rarely, as I do supplement my swinging with bolts. (I usually use bolts as an opener before the creature swings, for example.)

I'd think improving the (fairly janky) lore benefit to 509 as a more reasonable example of improving warmages, for instance. The TP cost is only beneficial for training earth lore over CMans for the first 9 ranks (2 bonuses), which I find pretty silly.

Or put another way around, fire lore is unlikely to be a major focus of a warmage in any case.


Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog

''>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p''
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1103
| author = KARDIOS
| date = on 12/16/2015 06:48 AM PST
| subject = Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!
}}
<br>
Is it ranks or bonus?
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1105
| author = VAELANCE
| date = on 12/16/2015 06:59 AM PST
| subject = Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!
}}
<br>
for all those bolting fire mages!
who comes up with this stuff?
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1106
| author = DAID
| date = on 12/16/2015 07:46 AM PST
| subject = Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!
}}
<br>
''>for all those bolting fire mages!''
''>who comes up with this stuff? ''

Well, there was a general point of how different lores should work. The Elemental Targeting benefit would also be good for bolting and fire, for example.

I mean, in a sense I've already agreed with you by making the case that a melee AS doesn't make a lot of sense for a warmage (earth and air are more likely for that).

An honest question: what lore is good for a bolting (standard) mage? Has this changed at all with the ELR? If it did change, that seems not like a bad thing.


Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog

''>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p''
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1107
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 12/16/2015 10:58 AM PST
| subject = Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!
}}
<br>
''>> .. If it did change, that seems not like a bad thing.''

It's okay to say "that seems like a good thing." Even on the official forums! :p

To answer your question, I don't think of any lore changes provided much of a lift to bolting in general. There were changes to add some flavor to bolts (906 chance to set the target on fire is fun, ability to cast Acid balls or get acid burn effects is also fun) and some combos that were added (e.g. Minor water, get a soak result, followed by lightning for an improved chance at stun). You could argue the change to 425-Elemental Targeting is a lift but it's pretty situational requiring a seed 10 summation chance for your ''next'' spell cast to be crit weighted ''if'' it matches your elemental attunement.

Most of the lore changes actually increased defense ''against'' bolts / boosted defense for critters (e.g. 414-ED III magical barrier chance to block attack, 430-Elemental Barrier +10 Crit padding, 503-Thurfel's Ward +20 DS for a single attack, 507-Elemental Deflection chance to reflect a bolt but this one was taken away from critters, 520-Stone Skin reactive vibe flare chance).

Net result is bolting is a little less effective in my mind. I don't see the boost to critters as a bad thing since it spices up combat a bit though.

Outside of adding a few ranks to try out acid balls I didn't change my lore training at all based on the new lore benefits. Most likely what they do with haste / rapid fire / immolation / enchant item (and any lore requirements that are associated with it) will be larger drivers for lore training than any of the changes released so far. That or pre-existing benefits such as expanded disk space, DF boost to associated elements, tonis bolt knockdown, etc. will continue to be the main lore training drivers.

-- Robert aka Faulkil

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1108
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 12/16/2015 11:56 AM PST
| subject = Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!
}}
<br>
''>Net result is bolting is a little less effective in my mind. I don't see the boost to critters as a bad thing since it spices up combat a bit though.''

I do. A nerf is a nerf.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1109
| author = DAID
| date = on 12/16/2015 12:11 PM PST
| subject = Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!
}}
<br>
Appreciate the reply, Robert!

I was avoiding this folder for a reason which is no longer relevant, and I've had my wizard for less than a year, so I've a lot to learn.

I definitely get you on changes affecting creatures. My paladin was mostly immune to tomb troll necromancers until they learned to bolt. Haha.


Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog

''>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p''
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1110
| author = GS4-AULIS
| date = on 12/16/2015 09:56 PM PST
| subject = Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!
}}
<br>
From personal experience, with my PC mage, I've noticed I'm a bit safer when bolting 904. The added burn damage that can happens has actually saved my butt quite a few times already by stunning the creature that would likely have wiped the floor with me when I was stuck in offensive from a maneuver or otherwise.


~Aulis
Forums Manager
QC'er
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1111
| author = JACKBLACK
| date = on 12/17/2015 12:21 AM PST
| subject = Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!
}}
<br>
Neat change. Pretty unique.

And seed 4. Hooray! :)
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1112
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 12/17/2015 06:50 AM PST
| subject = Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!
}}
<br>
''>> From personal experience, with my PC mage, I've noticed I'm a bit safer when bolting 904. The added burn damage that can happens has actually saved my butt quite a few times already by stunning the creature that would likely have wiped the floor with me when I was stuck in offensive from a maneuver or otherwise.''

That's a good point! At the lower levels, less of the ELR critter defenses will come into play, critters are mostly stunnable, and you'd be using 904 as a staple spell. I only played around with 904 long enough to see the effects a few times.

I haven't had similar results with 906 in my capped hunting experience (something I do use as one of my staple spells). I get the 'critter on fire' result with reasonable frequency but it generally doesn't have time to play out / make a significant difference. I don't recall it ever resulting in a stun from the burning effect - is that even a possibility with 906? I'll set some stunnable like level critters on fire today and watch them burn to get a sense of how likely this is to happen.

At any rate, from a real impact I'll put two more bolts into it before the fire even has a chance to kick in so the impact is minimal.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1113
| author = DRUMPEL
| date = on 12/17/2015 09:30 AM PST
| subject = Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!
}}
<br>
''>That's a good point! At the lower levels, less of the ELR critter defenses will come into play, critters are mostly stunnable, and you'd be using 904 as a staple spell. I only played around with 904 long enough to see the effects a few times.''

I don't get out much with my wizard for hunting, but I've made a lot of use of 904.

The 126 of Earth Lore he has, 904 has a 77% chance to stick and burn. It's nice, but at the same time not terribly exciting. A few odd flares might cause a stun, but generally the damage done is 5-15 points of damage with a few upwards of 20-30 (the 25-30 point burns can cause stuns, but it depends on the location of the flare and the target). The small added damage clearly isn't a game breaking design, but it does help against the few critters you can't get a good crit on.

Is the added acid burn for the 904 bolt super helpful....? Eh, not really, but it is a nice addition to help my wizard inflict extra pain on his enemies and I'm not complaining about it.

It would be cool if you could get the acid to stack and create multiple locations of burning acid on a single target - I'd be okay with that. I'm just saying....you should probably do this because that would be awesome.

-Drumpel
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1114
| author = CAPTAINREDBEARD
| date = on 12/17/2015 08:37 PM PST
| subject = Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!
}}
<br>
Why wasn't the acid/burn/scalding thing done for all bolt spells and lore possibilities?
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1115
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 12/18/2015 09:30 AM PST
| subject = Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!
}}
<br>
Okay, I was able to spend some time hunting this morning and figure our why I never see 906 cause stun. Most of the time when I hit something that is stunnable with 906 the result is that... it's stunned. So even when the critter catches on fire, it is either dead or still stunned when the burning messaging kicks in. So no real opportunity to see/cause a stun result.

-- Robert aka Faulkil

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1116
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 12/18/2015 09:33 AM PST
| subject = Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!
}}
<br>
''>> The "focusing" effect will add +1 AS for each seed 4 Elemental Lore, Fire per bolt attack on the same target, capped at +25 total AS boost. The AS will increase whether or not you actually hit the target, and only while casting bolt spells. Casting at another target removes the "focusing" AS boost.''

I just wanted to say that I spent some time hunting this morning and I was having a lot of fun with this effect.

Good job and thanks!

-- Robert aka Faulkil

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1117
| author = MOURNE
| date = on 12/18/2015 03:45 PM PST
| subject = Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!
}}
<br>
''>I just wanted to say that I spent some time hunting this morning and I was having a lot of fun with this effect. -Robert/Faulkil''

What he said. I really appreciate the satisfaction factor of seeing my AS creep up, and it's an especially nice offset when something's taking a few extra casts to put down and my mana supply is dwindling. Sometimes it's the little things.

---
With great effort you combine the value of your two bloodscrip, leaving you with a single parchment bloodscrip valued at 2112.
You think to yourself, "Another toy that helped destroy the elder race of man..."
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1118
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 01/15/2016 11:55 AM PST
| subject = Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
Hi Everybody! No shenanigans today. Just details.

Rapid Fire has been revised to remove the constant 0-second castRT. Instead, while Rapid Fire is active, it will reduce the castRT of all subsequent spells to 1 second. Once the effect ends, there is a short recovery period of 3 minutes before the spell can be used again without an extra penalty. If the spell is recast during the recovery period, all subsequent spells cast cost +5 mana. Training in Elemental Mana Control reduces the 3 minute cooldown by (skill / 2) seconds. So at 102 skill, the cooldown duration is 129 seconds, at 202 skill, the duration is 79 seconds, and at 302 skill, the cooldown is 29 seconds.

Training in Elemental Lore, Air has a seed 1 summation (based upon ranks) % chance to reduce the castRT to 0 seconds for any spell cast while Rapid Fire is active. Training in Elemental Lore, Water, has a seed 1 summation (based upon ranks) % chance to not cause the spell to go on cooldown when the effect ends. Thus the chance for each of these to trigger is 10% at 55 lore ranks, 20% at 210 lore ranks, etc.

Finally, the spell will no longer automatically prepare the same spell again.

~ Konacon
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1119
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 01/15/2016 11:55 AM PST
| subject = Immolation (519)
}}
<br>
The overall lethality of the spell for immolation-specced wizards is being reduced, but the usefulness and power of the spell for non-specialized wizards is being increased. The chance to incinerate (instant kill) a target is now calculated as a seed 1 summation of ((lore ranks - 10) / 2), but with a reduced chance for any warding result that is less than 150. The penalty is calculated at 2% per 1 WM. So if the wizard had a base 10% chance to incinerate the target, but the warding result was 125, the chance would be reduced to 5%. With 192 lore ranks, the base chance is 13%.

When not EVOKEd, the base damage of the spell has been increased. Training in Elemental Lore, Fire will now provide a % chance for one additional crit cycle, determined by (lore ranks / 1.5), so at 100 ranks, there is a 66% chance, and at 150 ranks, there is a 100% chance. The spell may also now be CHANNELed for increased damage, when one or more of the wizard's hands are empty and they are in an offensive stance. Lastly, when the spell is not EVOKEd, it will no longer cause RoundTime to the target, with the exception of players who manually choose to roll around on the ground in an attempt to extinguish the immolate effect. However, the spell can be EVOKEd to still cause RoundTime (in exchange for the decreased damage potential). This allows a wizard to optionally use the spell to disable or as an effective warding attack spell.

GameMaster Estild
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1120
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 01/15/2016 12:09 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
All of the wizard nerfs that hit today are complete garbage.

That's all I have to say right now.

~ Methais
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1121
| author = GS4-AULIS
| date = on 01/15/2016 12:15 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
Just as a reminder:

2. "Count to 10" and post kindly. Messages should always maintain a respectful, civil tone towards one another. Name-calling and abuse is not allowed.

Let's try and be constructive with any criticism or comments towards any of the new changes.


~Aulis
Forums Manager
QC'er
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1122
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 01/15/2016 12:34 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>Let's try and be constructive with any criticism or comments towards any of the new changes.''

There's nothing to be constructive about because it's exactly the same garbage (fact) as the previous proposals, with all of the same bolt issues still in place.

Congratulations on making the game less fun.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1124
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 01/15/2016 01:10 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>Let's try and be constructive with any criticism or comments towards any of the new changes.''

Simu should try to be constructive with major changes they make to a class, as opposed to being destructive like they just did with wizards.

These are the same terrible changes that were proposed during HSN and caused a huge uproar that supposedly were put on hold until they could come up with something that doesn't trash the class (no idea if that part was true or not, just what I had been hearing after HSN). Obviously that didn't happen, yet none of the inherent problems wizards faced overall have been addressed either, leaving us worse off in every possible way compared to where we were before.

What does this do to improve the game again?

Seriously, what exactly did this improve with the game? It's not a rhetorical question.

~ Methais
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1125
| author = MICHN18
| date = on 01/15/2016 01:43 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
Training in Elemental Lore, Water, has a seed 1 summation (based upon ranks) % chance to cause pitchforks and RAGE.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1126
| author = ROLFARD
| date = on 01/15/2016 01:49 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror...
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1127
| author = SHAYD11
| date = on 01/15/2016 02:02 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''> "I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror...''

You forgot the best part of that quote. I will finish it for you since I am a gentleman. " and were suddenly silenced"
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1128
| author = ROLFARD
| date = on 01/15/2016 02:12 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
If anything the number of posts in this folder tonight will likely surpass posts in all other folders combined.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1129
| author = DRAFIX
| date = on 01/15/2016 03:34 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
So I've done some testing... here are my initial findings with 202 air lore:

The changes effectively remove the mana efficiency of using 901. On average it takes me 20 casts of 901 to take down a rift crawler. 6 casts of 903. 7 casts of 904. 11 casts of 906. 910 takes about 4 casts.
As stated above, the costs to take down a rift crawler becomes approximately 20/18/28/66/40 mana and 20/6/7/11/4 RT respectively.

Then if you try to use the rapidfire spell while on cooldown, that's effectively 120/48/63/121/60 mana respectively, making it effectively unusable during cooldown.

As you can see wizard bolt spells aren't particularly powerful, the DFs are weak, costs are high, and aren't particularly effective even with the air lore DF boost for 901/910.


I, however, have been able to kill crawlers in 1-4 shots with a bow with maximum skill/enhancives (lots of death crits resulting in some quick one hit deaths).
So that works out to be 1-4 rt, basically negligible mana cost to cast celerity, and no cooldown.
It seems being a war mage is much better than bolting now.
The caveat is that you have to be able to hit things with your 471 maximized bolt AS. Some crawlers just have excessively high DS regardless of the fact they're in offensive stance and wear no spells. Fetish masters have ~480+ ranged DS in offensive/prone so trying to hit them would be pointless.
Furthermore anything using a shield is basically a lost cause as well since critters tend to be fully trained to use shields. That ends up being something like 303 shield ranks + tower shield versus the 101 ranged ranks. Fallen crusaders come to mind as they tend to block 3-4 of my shots consecutively like Captain America or something. I cannot hit any vvrael warlocks that use tower shields as they basically hit 600 ranged DS with a tower shield.

So where does that put wizards all-in-all? For war mages, haste adds no change to how they hunted before as haste effectively adds no changes to offensive actions. For defensive purposes, 535 is much weaker as even 5 rt turns into 2 rt when before 8 rt turned into 1rt. Bolting without rapid fire is much weaker. Bolting in general isn't very effective. I have death critted a few cerebralites using 512 on the first cast so that looks promising. 519 without the lore training is costly and rarely death crits.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1130
| author = FIREPHOENIX
| date = on 01/15/2016 03:58 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
Methais, the 14 minutes since these were posted and implemented gives a good indication you didn't try them.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1131
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 01/15/2016 05:07 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
Hey Konakon! Glad to see you are still alive and kicking!

''>> Finally, the spell will no longer automatically prepare the same spell again''

This is the main reason I never bothered to use this spell very much in the past and I'm excited to see this particular change made!

I expect I am in the minority here, but I will probably use this spell more as a result of this update.

Also, for those wondering, the new spell has a duration of 60 seconds and does not stack (you get a message that it doesn't work if you try to recast it a 2nd time while it is still active).

Thanks!

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1132
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 01/15/2016 06:42 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
I was able to try this out this evening and this update took a dead spell slot (for me) and made it into a nice power up! Since it doesn't have the quirky re-prep characteristic now it plays nicely with my normal hunting style but with the turbo button pressed! Came in handy a couple times and was a rush to use it (without having to write a bunch of scripts / macros to handle it like you had to with the old spell). Definitely something I'll make part of my normal hunting routing going forward.

Also the recovery time wasn't all that noticeable - it was back up and ready for use before I was even looking to use it again.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1133
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 01/15/2016 07:23 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
<br>
Single target disablers shouldn't cost 19 mana. Without a CS booster, post-cap creatures such as greater water elementals also cannot be reliably disabled this way.

The incant setting is not saving:
''>inc set cast 519''
INCANT will now use CAST for the Immolation spell.

''>inc set''
INCANT CHANNEL Spells:
- 502: Chromatic Circle

INCANT EVOKE Spells:
- 903: Minor Water
- 909: Tremors

INCANT OPEN Spells:
- 518: Cone of Elements
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1134
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 01/15/2016 07:28 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
I found it the opposite. The most tedious 2nd floor Nelemar hunt ever. It's like someone went out of the way to encourage script hunting with adding excessively complicated commands and usage scenarios.

More tedium, less fun for total less power = no fun.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1135
| author = CANDIDE
| date = on 01/15/2016 07:46 PM PST
| subject = 515 combos
}}
<br>
Has anyone tried set up spells in their attacks? 504 (giving instant rt) 502 for vulnerability and then appropriate bolt to your lores?


Frankly if it works it smacks of UAC to me but at least its 3 seconds not 12.

GBB
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1136
| author = CAELRIC
| date = on 01/15/2016 07:55 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|
|-
|Congratulations on making the game less fun.
|-
|
|}

This x1000 and this is the proverbial straw that resulted in me sending in cancellation requests for both my Plat accounts.


-Taakhooshi, and Me

For the Story of Taakhooshi:
http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Taakhooshi
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1137
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 01/15/2016 08:00 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>Methais, the 14 minutes since these were posted and implemented gives a good indication you didn't try them.''

It doesn't take rocket appliances to read the changes and see that it's an incredible loss in power from what we were before today.

~ Methais
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1138
| author = RAGGLER
| date = on 01/15/2016 09:31 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
Currently the cooldown timer for 515 is being calculated based on your elemental mana control ranks at the time the spell expires. I'm wondering if this was intentional or not? Would it be possible to have the cooldown calculated by how many ranks of EMC you have at the time you cast the spell instead?

Isle Snack Muncher
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1139
| author = PC1234
| date = on 01/16/2016 03:44 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
An increase in duration would go a long way on this one. How about a 3 minute duration since there is a 3 minute recovery period?
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1140
| author = DAID
| date = on 01/16/2016 04:02 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>The changes effectively remove the mana efficiency of using 901. On average it takes me 20 casts of 901 to take down a rift crawler. 6 casts of 903. [...]''

It looks to me like 903 was the mana efficient option. Granted, 1 more cast makes it 21 mana, so the error bar on the average for 903 is going to be larger than for 901. I still find it interesting that, with this example, people weren't even using the most efficient tactic for Rapid Fire (which has now been ruined) even while claiming it was the best tactic loudly. This speaks volumes to me...

''>Also, for those wondering, the new spell has a duration of 60 seconds and does not stack (you get a message that it doesn't work if you try to recast it a 2nd time while it is still active).''

One query I heard on LNet was if Rapid Fire is now self-cast only. The announcement does not specify an answer to this. I've almost ever used Rapid Fire on my sorcerer from other people, but evidently some people have commonly done that. Anyway, it would be good to know if it is self-cast only, or how it works on others if not.

As far as my general perspective on this spell change:

I only have a warmage that is in the late 20s. Certainly that character ''never'' used Rapid Fire despite knowing it for about 15 levels (or around 9 months). I might use it now, though. All-in-all it seems staff implemented the changes reasonably considering their stated direction.


Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog

''>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p''
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1141
| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 01/16/2016 06:51 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>One query I heard on LNet was if Rapid Fire is now self-cast only. The announcement does not specify an answer to this. ''

''>Rapid Fire is not restricted to self-cast: it can be cast on other characters and uses the target's skill to determine the cooldown. -Wiki''

Estild did the basic information wiki edits on 515 (and 519)

https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Rapid_Fire_(515)
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1143
| author = PCOFFEY77
| date = on 01/16/2016 08:48 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
I am happy to see that things are still being worked on and updates are happening.

I'm not entirely thrilled about how this spell turned out though. In places I've been hunting recently, the life, and typically death, of my Wizard depended on how fast he could bolt things to death. You've now just added a probable minimum of 10 seconds to each attempted kill in a place where time is of essence. The ability to not be able to stack this and ON TOP OF IT ALL to give a penalty and a 3 minute cooldown on it hurts me most. Even with using 901 I am mana starved many times. You capped us on mana leech so now I can't even try to get back more mana because of the penalty you've placed on it.

My suggestion would to make it more like mana leech in the fact that you can use it over and over to a point WITHOUT A MANA PENALTY - and then when you rest you have to endure the cooldown. Because this game is a "hurry-up-and-rest" game. It feels like you've just made the already painfully slow process even more painful and slower. But, maybe that is to help "even out" Wizards hunting to match those that swing at 5 rt. Yet, they can wear plate and not paper like wizards do.

To a Wizard with little protection, speed is of the UTMOST essence!
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1145
| author = GAROFALOA
| date = on 01/16/2016 02:13 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
CORRECTION:

lol, brought to my attention that it's 319...not 335.

But i'm still standing behind my previous remarks.

Hap
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1146
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 01/16/2016 05:02 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|Isle Snack Muncher
|-
|Currently the cooldown timer for 515 is being calculated based on your elemental mana control ranks at the time the spell expires. I'm wondering if this was intentional or not? Would it be possible to have the cooldown calculated by how many ranks of EMC you have at the time you cast the spell instead?
|}

What would be the benefit for such a change?

{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|PCOFFEY77
|-
|I'm not entirely thrilled about how this spell turned out though. In places I've been hunting recently, the life, and typically death, of my Wizard depended on how fast he could bolt things to death. You've now just added a probable minimum of 10 seconds to each attempted kill in a place where time is of essence. The ability to not be able to stack this and ON TOP OF IT ALL to give a penalty and a 3 minute cooldown on it hurts me most. Even with using 901 I am mana starved many times. You capped us on mana leech so now I can't even try to get back more mana because of the penalty you've placed on it.
|}

It's rather universal that speed trumps a lot of things in GemStone combat (for all professions). 0 second castRT should have never been possible (and never will be again on any persistent basis) and created significant balance implications. 1 second castRT is still extremely powerful; you're literally casting 3x as fast as any other caster. I don't know what level your wizard is, but at the least I'm guessing level 50+ (otherwise any claim to a hunting area being dangerous is significantly diminished), and even at 1x Elemental Mana Control (50 ranks), that's -75 seconds to the cooldown, reducing it to less than 2 minutes. If you want to further mitigate the cooldown, you can train more EMC. The mana penalty is intentionally designed to push you to try a different tactic other than Rapid Fire during the cooldown. It's a soft cooldown so you can make the choice, but if it's affecting your ability to hunt - don't use it on cooldown. It is absolutely possible to hunt without the spell, but even so you can still can maintain 25-66% up time based upon training.

GameMaster Estild
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1147
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 01/16/2016 09:54 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>0 second castRT should have never been possible (and never will be again on any persistent basis)''

I can almost feel the delight you take in reminding us of that.

''>It is absolutely possible to hunt without the spell''

Go try it in a place like the confluence against more than a 1 vs 1 fight where everything is unaffected by aoe crowd control spells, immune to single target disablers other than immolate on the stuff that isn't fire immune, which is about half the critters there, and are constantly dispelling and throwing maneuvers at you, and not being able to kill quickly is going to result in death. And since they don't crit, you have to do it by pure attrition which requires damage output that we're simply not capable of in the timeframe it's needed.

Know what else it's possible to do? Hunt a square 0 to cap with a non-ambushing sword & board build.

On another note, what's the point of the 0 RT procs? Without either a script, mindlessly mashing the enter key, or Spider Man reflexes, it's impossible to take advantage of it, which makes it useless unless encouraging scripting is the desired effect.

What's the chance that proc could be changed to something more useful, something like a double cast, duration extension, etc.?

~ Methais
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1148
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 01/16/2016 11:47 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''> I can almost feel the delight you take in reminding us of that.''

I can't speak for Estild, but I would be astonished if there was any delight there at all. It's just a factual statement.

''> What's the chance that proc could be changed to something more useful, something like a double cast, duration extension, etc.?''

I feel you on the proc, and I plan on bringing this point up. I highly doubt it's going to end up as some kind of double cast, but I think there are other options to explore. As to the chances that it will actually change, I don't know.

~ Konacon
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1149
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 01/17/2016 06:57 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>I feel you on the proc, and I plan on bringing this point up. I highly doubt it's going to end up as some kind of double cast, but I think there are other options to explore. As to the chances that it will actually change, I don't know. -Konacon''

Double cast was just an example off the top of my head. But either way as it stands, the 0 RT proc just feels like a slap in the face being included with the RF nerf, because it's literally impossible to get any use out of without scripting or mashing.

Even replacing it with 0 mana cost for that cast would be way better than the current proc, because at least we can make use of it. The only way I can see a 0 RT proc being useful is to make it last 1 second instead of 1 cast, which I doubt any GMs would go for.

I would have much rather seen Rapid Fire become Burst Fire over what it is now, but I'm not even gonna waste time on a lost cause like that.

But I do appreciate you planning on bringing it up regardless.

~ Methais
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1150
| author = RROY
| date = on 01/17/2016 07:02 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
Having only had 3-4 hunts since the change went in, and not really optimized my macros and etc... My experience with the new 515 has been pretty positive. at 88 trainings and hunting OTF Aqueducts and the west woods areas, so down hunting a bit. I am still easily able to fill my experiance bucket. I hunt a bit more cautiously. I start out with Rapid Fire then use it again here and there before the cooldown is over. So far so good, not running short of mana and able to switch spells without releasing the old.

The 0 sec RT proc, pretty useless as you get into a 1 sec rhythm and loose quite a bit of the proc due to reflex time. Change the proc to something else.

Suggestions for that would be to just aucto recast the spell that procs even if the frequency needs reduced. Or how about the proc removing the mana cost of the spell?

Just an elf about town...
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1151
| author = RROY
| date = on 01/17/2016 07:03 AM PST
| subject = 535
}}
<br>
LOving the new 535 Haste, almost all the things I use haste for are now at reduced cast time without my having to cast 506. LOving that!

Just an elf about town...
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1152
| author = PCOFFEY77
| date = on 01/17/2016 07:46 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>I feel you on the proc, and I plan on bringing this point up. I highly doubt it's going to end up as some kind of double cast, but I think there are other options to explore. As to the chances that it will actually change, I don't know.''

Be nice to follow along with the MjS circle on that as with 240. Though I'd hate to even touch 540, but maybe it could be added to it - temporal change in time and space allows for a double/triple cast of a spell...
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1153
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 01/17/2016 08:43 PM PST
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
This spell might actually be of some use if it allowed you to specify an element based on lore training, similiar to how 518 works, rather than just attunement or random. Without attunement, being random makes it not functional at all in many areas of the game since the chance of a lightning strike can kill you. 302 and 702 aren't subject to such conditions.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1154
| author = TRINITIS2
| date = on 01/17/2016 08:47 PM PST
| subject = Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!
}}
<br>
I for one am loving 502. Cinto has been hunting with it for about 5 levels now and he's just having zero issues at all. Granted he's only level 30, so I don't see many scary beasts at this point.

I did wanna find out if being able to re-attune is still being looked at though. As being able to control which element is used via 502 is extremely helpful.

-Cinto
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1155
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 01/17/2016 09:51 PM PST
| subject = Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!
}}
<br>
''>The "focusing" effect will add +1 AS for each seed 4 Elemental Lore, Fire per bolt attack on the same target, capped at +25 total AS boost.''

Why is this the single offensive boost in the game to calculate the bonus focusing effect based on lore ranks in the field, rather than upon initial spell up? Please fix this.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1156
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 01/18/2016 12:06 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>Currently the cooldown timer for 515 is being calculated based on your elemental mana control ranks at the time the spell expires. I'm wondering if this was intentional or not? Would it be possible to have the cooldown calculated by how many ranks of EMC you have at the time you cast the spell instead?''

''>What would be the benefit for such a change?''

Because this is how every other utility and buffing spell in the game works (skill check upon casting, not expiration), except for the exceptions wizards seem to be getting. The same problem exists with 513. Please make this consistent, and I don't mean by nerfing more things for everyone else.

Additionally, 506 and 515 have the only cooldown effects in the game that activate upon expiration, not original activation. CMANs and every other combat effect in the game aren't treated this way. Why is it that wizards have to be nerfed for "game balance" and "consistency", yet the way they're addressed isn't consistent with anything else?
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1157
| author = DRAFIX
| date = on 01/18/2016 01:54 AM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
<br>
519 really doesn't disable anything.

The flames surrounding a frozen corpse flare up violently...
... 15 points of damage!
Minor burns to right hand. Ouch.

The flames around a frozen corpse continue to burn!
A frozen corpse rolls around on the ground, trying to smother the flames that surround it.
The flames surrounding a frozen corpse continue to burn.
A frozen corpse's eyes glow with a dull blue light!
A frozen corpse swings a large ice pick at you!
You gracefully avoid the attack!

The flames around a frozen corpse continue to burn!
A frozen corpse grimaces as she fumbles helplessly with her ice pick.
The flames surrounding a frozen corpse flare up violently...
... 10 points of damage!
Minor burns to chest. That hurts a bit.

The flames around a frozen corpse continue to burn!
A frozen corpse drags herself northeast, wailing in exquisite ecstasy.


It's on fire... and it can attack.. stand up, get a weapon, and walk away. Disable what? Plenty of critters exhibit this behavior. They completely ignore the fact they're on fire. The disabling aspect of this spell is very unreliable.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1158
| author = DRAFIX
| date = on 01/18/2016 04:09 AM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
<br>
The toggle settings for INCANT SET and the help menu from INCANT are actually a bit unintuitive.

It's not that it isn't saving. If you INCANT SET CAST, that just means set to casting [closed casting by default]. Closed casting is default therefore it doesn't show up on INCANT SET.

Only reason to set to CAST is to either
A) remove it from the INCANT SET list by making it effectively closed casting
OR
B) change from EVOKE/CHANNEL to OPEN cast mode. (like you have for 518)

By the way... to remove from the INCANT OPEN list, you have to INCANT SET OPEN 518 again to toggle it back to closed cast. Funny how there's no CLOSED setting. Similarly you could just SET INCANT CHANNEL 502 to toggle it back to CAST mode, which effectively makes the CAST option redundant, useless, and confusing.
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1159
| author = GS4-CONTEMPLAR
| date = on 01/18/2016 07:09 AM PST
| subject = Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!
}}
<br>
''>>The "focusing" effect will add +1 AS for each seed 4 Elemental Lore, Fire per bolt attack on the same target, capped at +25 total AS boost.''

''>Why is this the single offensive boost in the game to calculate the bonus focusing effect based on lore ranks in the field, rather than upon initial spell up? Please fix this.''

I am sorry but there is nothing to fix there.

The calculation for this is determined while you are in the field. There is no stored bonus (aside from the main AS portion) when you cast the spell for the "focusing" effect. Thus, you cannot ramp your "focusing" boost this way. The boost only comes into play when you are targeting the same creature in the field. So if you are spelling yourself up safely in a node using special enhancives for this, it is not going to help. You need to have that enhancive boost while actually hunting for it to come into play.

~Contemplar~
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1160
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 01/18/2016 07:20 AM PST
| subject = Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!
}}
<br>
''>The calculation for this is determined while you are in the field. There is no stored bonus (aside from the main AS portion) when you cast the spell for the "focusing" effect. Thus, you cannot ramp your "focusing" boost this way. The boost only comes into play when you are targeting the same creature in the field. So if you are spelling yourself up safely in a node using special enhancives for this, it is not going to help. You need to have that enhancive boost while actually hunting for it to come into play.''

And yet this isn't how any other offensive buff or utility spell in the game works, from 307, 215, etc. Why are wizard spells the sole exceptions to consistent game design?
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1161
| author = GS4-CONTEMPLAR
| date = on 01/18/2016 08:25 AM PST
| subject = Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!
}}
<br>
''>>The calculation for this is determined while you are in the field. There is no stored bonus (aside from the main AS portion) when you cast the spell for the "focusing" effect. Thus, you cannot ramp your "focusing" boost this way. The boost only comes into play when you are targeting the same creature in the field. So if you are spelling yourself up safely in a node using special enhancives for this, it is not going to help. You need to have that enhancive boost while actually hunting for it to come into play.''

''>And yet this isn't how any other offensive buff or utility spell in the game works, from 307, 215, etc. Why are wizard spells the sole exceptions to consistent game design?''

This is nothing remotely like any other offensive buff spell including 513 itself. All the other AS boosters you are mentioning are persistent, meaning that they grant the AS boost when cast and stay there until the spell effect is removed. The "focusing" boost is not a persistent effect on the player. It only gets added when you aim for the same target until then you do not have a "focusing boost". You still get the full AS boost from 513 base effect when you cast it.

I know that is not what you want to hear, but it is working by design.

~Contemplar~
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1162
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 01/18/2016 08:28 AM PST
| subject = Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!
}}
<br>
''>This is nothing remotely like any other offensive buff spell including 513 itself. All the other AS boosters you are mentioning are persistent, meaning that they grant the AS boost when cast and stay there until the spell effect is removed. The "focusing" boost is not a persistent effect on the player. It only gets added when you aim for the same target until then you do not have a "focusing boost". You still get the full AS boost from 513 base effect when you cast it.''

And yet the 307 flare is based on original casting skill. Why can't the "focusing" effect of 513 use the same check? It's essentially a scaling flare that fires if you attack the same creature multiple times.
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1163
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 01/18/2016 09:43 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
The cooldown needs to be able to be eliminated via training well enough post-cap. What's absurd, is the fact that the biggest issue with this spell, just like old Haste, was that it can STILL be cast on other players. Know who can afford the extra 5 mana per cast in the cooldown period? Those sorcerers spamming 702 in warcamps. Know who can't afford them? Wizards, especially unattuned ones who can't make use of 502 or 415 because of the presence of the lightning flare chance in water hunting grounds.

You should have eliminated the other cast ability and lessened the nerfing for the class that primarily bolts, since we have no effective warding spells or CS-based mass disablers or boosters accessible that spiritualists enjoy. Even other spells such as 215, 307, 219 all require the cleric or empath to be present instead of just casting from a place of safety and letting the sorcerer pop into a warcamp.
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1164
| author = DAID
| date = on 01/18/2016 11:21 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
Basic investigation in-game or fact checking would help make a better case where there are perceived issues with releases.

{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|LADYFLEUR:
|-
|''>Additionally, 506 and 515 have the only cooldown effects in the game that activate upon expiration, not original activation''
|}
False! Check this out:
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|Celerity release post by FINROS:
|-
|''>If not natively self-cast, there is a four minute period starting at the time of first application during which Celerity may not be re-applied to the same target.''
|}

Next up:

{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|LADYFLEUR:
|-
|''>CMANs and every other combat effect in the game aren't treated this way.''
|}

False! I just tested the CMAN Surge of Strength, for instance. It's recovery begins when Surge drops, not when it's called.

Anyway, the above is all mostly irrelevant to the core discussion:

{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|Isle Snack Muncher
|-
|''>>>Currently the cooldown timer for 515 is being calculated based on your elemental mana control ranks at the time the spell expires. I'm wondering if this was intentional or not? Would it be possible to have the cooldown calculated by how many ranks of EMC you have at the time you cast the spell instead?''
|-
|ESTILD:
|-
|''>>What would be the benefit for such a change?''
|-
|LADYFLEUR:
|-
|''>Because this is how every other utility and buffing spell in the game works (skill check upon casting, not expiration), except for the exceptions wizards seem to be getting. The same problem exists with 513. Please make this consistent, and I don't mean by nerfing more things for everyone else.''
|}

My ''guess'' here is that the target value for the cooldown was intentional on staff's side. This is, more often than not, the reply to the query, "Why is a formula calculated by A rather than B?" What would be the point of starting a cooldown earlier or later if the cooldown after the buff is removed is kept constant?

If the purpose of the question was to start the cooldown earlier but keep the cooldown the same, it is no different than asking for a shorter cooldown, which while certainly something players may appreciate, is probably something the staff already considered in a lot of detail and won't be changing without a reason. As to that point itself, while there are other cooldowns which cannot be 100% removed post-cap, I would point out there's always maxing Harness Power training, which isn't vastly different than mitigating the cooldown directly...


Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog

''>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p''
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1165
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 01/18/2016 03:34 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>As to that point itself, while there are other cooldowns which cannot be 100% removed post-cap, I would point out there's always maxing Harness Power training, which isn't vastly different than mitigating the cooldown directly...''

All of my magical skills are fully maxed, thanks, so basically I lost power for nothing in return. Which in itself is bad enough, but the main issue is wizards are the only class that can't instantly kill something any more with sufficient skills and gear post-cap.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1166
| author = DAID
| date = on 01/18/2016 04:45 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>All of my magical skills are fully maxed, thanks, so basically I lost power for nothing in return. Which in itself is bad enough, but the main issue is wizards are the only class that can't instantly kill something any more with sufficient skills and gear post-cap.''

Just a moment ago, this thread was about Rapid Fire cooldown mechanics. A few false statements later, it is now about instant kills. Change topics often?


Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog

''>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p''
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1167
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 01/18/2016 05:27 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
Going back to my original point, rapid fire should be self-cast only before adding in all of these other excessive cooldowns and mana penalty nerfs. At the minimum, a wizard should be present for the spell to take effect on others if an other cast version is available, similar to how 211, 215, and 219 work with lores. It's absurd that a major circle spell is so readily available when that was one of the big problems with it.

Also, this spell should be refreshable similar to how 506 now is. A CT nerf, plus a cooldown, plus non-refreshable, PLUS mana penalty is serious overkill when the biggest offenders of the spell are non-wizards abusing it for low mana costs. Non-wizards should only be able to cast defensive or utility spells at best while under this effect if we're balancing combat mechanics.
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1168
| author = ROLFARD
| date = on 01/18/2016 05:54 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>>the biggest offenders of the spell are non-wizards abusing it for low mana costs.>>''

I was introduced to this hunting style for my mage by a mage first with 901 on the 3rd floor of nelemar (sorry for the screen scroll friends!) and then 502 in the confluence. I would consider my mage a big offender, more so than any of my alts partaking the benefit while group hunting.
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1169
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 01/19/2016 09:32 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
Since the Elemental Lore, Air benefit of a chance to flare a 0 second castRT appears to be unpopular, what other ideas would you suggest? Ideally, something useful and unique, as we're not looking to reimplement acuity or ensorcell (+AS/CS) flares here.

GameMaster Estild
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1170
| author = ELIZAISGOD
| date = on 01/19/2016 09:39 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>Since the Elemental Lore, Air benefit of a chance to flare a 0 second castRT appears to be unpopular, what other ideas would you suggest? Ideally, something useful and unique, as we're not looking to reimplement acuity or ensorcell (+AS/CS) flares here.''

I'm not sure 515 needs a cooldown at all, to be honest--and this is coming from someone who considered 515 way too overpowered. The new 1 second cast mechanic coupled with an unstackable duration addresses all the things I thought was wrong with it originally.

Droit

Speaking to you, Ceyrin asks, "Do you spontaneously come back to life when you die?"
Speaking to you, Ceyrin says, "Because I do."
You say, "Yes. I have a condition called Annoraxia.""
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1171
| author = ELIZAISGOD
| date = on 01/19/2016 09:40 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
Whoops, I totally misread what you were asking about. Sorry. My statement still stands however.

Droit

Speaking to you, Ceyrin asks, "Do you spontaneously come back to life when you die?"
Speaking to you, Ceyrin says, "Because I do."
You say, "Yes. I have a condition called Annoraxia.""
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1172
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 01/19/2016 09:52 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>> Since the Elemental Lore, Air benefit of a chance to flare a 0 second castRT appears to be unpopular, what other ideas would you suggest? Ideally, something useful and unique, as we're not looking to reimplement acuity or ensorcell (+AS/CS) flares here.''

Why not apply the 1 second to extend the spell duration or reduce the cooldown period? So if the ability fires off 5 times during the initial 60 seconds then the spell would remain up for an additional 5 seconds or the cooldown period would be reduced by 5 seconds?

Either of those scenarios would be more usable to someone not running scripts / mashing their keyboard while providing a benefit that is somewhat similar to the current benefit.

Alternatively, introduce an overload feature where each 'flare' increases the crit weighting by 1 (additive) for the remainder of spell duration (e.g. if it flared 5 times over the course of the spell then the last spell cast would have +5 crit weighting on it).

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1173
| author = TANDL
| date = on 01/19/2016 09:59 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
Auto applying a 502 cast either before or after.
0 mana cost on next spell cast.
Automatically cast a 'minor' version of a bolt spell of the same element as what was cast.
Double cast.
Double sampled d100 roll (reverse 1006).
Extra elemental flares of the associated element cast.
Apply the channeled spell effect for bolts (and immolate) without having to actually channel.
Free casts of the same spell at secondary hostile targets in the room.
Increased effectiveness of lore based effects (either static lore bonus, or by proc)

Taluric.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1174
| author = RSKEENS
| date = on 01/19/2016 10:02 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
Could just have the proc add duration since a 0 second cast would have been a "free" extra cast anyway. 1 second? 2 seconds?
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1175
| author = DNA428
| date = on 01/19/2016 10:20 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
how about a chance to flare 506 on yourself? or flare bubble flares? mana return like dc?
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1176
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 01/19/2016 12:01 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>Since the Elemental Lore, Air benefit of a chance to flare a 0 second castRT appears to be unpopular, what other ideas would you suggest? Ideally, something useful and unique, as we're not looking to reimplement acuity or ensorcell (+AS/CS) flares here.''

Returns Rapid Fire to its original form for the rest of the spell's duration. If it happens twice in a row, this effect becomes permanent.

But since that won't go anywhere...

- Double damage on next cast
- Double/triple cast
- Reduces cooldown and/or extends duration by 5 seconds
- Grants an instant 1000 experience and 1,000,000 silvers
- Makes Ophion say yes
- Makes David Whatley go back to collecting checks instead of being involved with GS again

My vote is for making Ophion say yes.

~ Methais
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1177
| author = DNA428
| date = on 01/19/2016 12:03 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
temp increase in td?
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1178
| author = OBSERVER
| date = on 01/19/2016 12:30 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
1. 0 mana cost for the spell would apply to any spell being cast (Offensive, Defensive, Utility), which would be nice. If that is considered imbalanced, then either free to a certain level, then reduced cost beyond that point.

2. Extended duration of Rapid Fire or reduced cooldown both would be universally useful.

3. Increased AS/CS would be useful for offensive spells, but not Defensive/Utility. I imagine people would still enjoy that as an ability.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1179
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 01/19/2016 01:09 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
I don't think extending either the duration or reducing the cooldown is sufficient to address the amount of power lost by having the cooldown plus mana penalty in the first place. If we're really going for a tangible lore benefit, a free mana double cast or high chance of an aimed bolt, similar to what post-cap ambushers and archers can achieve, would be useful and unique.

Air lore is not the right lore to be using for this, given every other offensive benefit takes fire. Either that, or we need to be able to 3x lores, because the way training is split 4 ways with such high seeds for all means that no matter what, every post-cap wizard is going to be pretty mediocre.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1180
| author = ROLFARD
| date = on 01/19/2016 01:32 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
How about a flare that prevents ungrouped casters from casting due to a mama surge in the room.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1181
| author = HJELTE
| date = on 01/19/2016 01:39 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
I really like Tandl's recommendations.

HOWEVER, I would prefer not having something be "On the next cast blahblahblah". Lets face it, we're going to be spam casting while rapid fire is up... I'd rather not have to adjust what I'm casting based on a proc in 1s time. I'd rather have it be retroactively applied. I can't really adjust what I'm doing in 1s! Thats why randomly getting 0 RT is tough... can't really maximize the use of that, because the command for the next cast would already need to be transmitted before the feedback from the previous cast is received. Just like I prefer procs like Acuity rather than an Ensorcell.

On Defensive spells: mana return
On Attack spells: Auto-apply 502 / 513 AS boosts
On Disabling Spells: Auto-Slow/Dispel?
On Utility spells: Randomly apply effects on other PCs in the room?

~Whirlin
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1182
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 01/19/2016 01:48 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>> Double sampled d100 roll (reverse 1006).''

I like this idea for channeled bolts. Still not sure I'll ever use channeled bolts but I think I would be more likely to consider using them over the current implementation.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1183
| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 01/19/2016 01:52 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>How about a flare that prevents ungrouped casters from casting due to a mama surge in the room. ''

mama surge implementation definitely needs more work.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1184
| author = THORNBROOK
| date = on 01/19/2016 01:53 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
What about 4 possible results based on which lores the player has trained, trained most extensively, or alternatively any lore over 50 ranks has the chance to have its flare happen.
Fire lore could provide either a double strike of the spell cast (pseudo 0 second cast without the human reaction time) or while copying ideas..it could be like 415 where it hits another target if there is one, or double strikes the target if not.
Water lore could reduce mana costs of the next spell(s) by a % or flat amount.
Air lore as others have suggested could either extend the spells duration or lower the cooldown by 1 second for each time it procs.
Earth lore could provide you DS in proportion to the spell you were casting when it triggered. If we're rapid fire bolting than we're likely intending to stay in offensive stance so more DS couldn't hurt right. Maybe spell casted x3=DS gained. Or have it scale based on the number of earth ranks. Rapid fire minor shock would be a minimal 3 DS+any scaling, but something like 906 would be 18+. It could also be that this ability doesn't begin until the rapidfire cooldown begins. One of the arguments has been how deadly that downtime is for the wizard, well this could be a way to frontload DS for that period.


Thanks for reconsidering tweaks like this btw.
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{{saved-post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1185
| author = DOUG
| date = on 01/19/2016 02:10 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
I'll add to my list, based on the intriguing reverse 1006 commentary.

- Spell Truehand (result is D50 automagically added to 50 base, resulting 51 to 100 result) for the spell cast under the proc'd chance.

Doug
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{{saved-post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = DOUG
| date = on 01/19/2016 02:13 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
Dern! And another thought for consideration, just because I'm a GoS fan:

- Critical aim effect (+10 to bolt crit weighted applied when proc'd chance is realized).

Doug
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{{saved-post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1187
| author = CANDIDE
| date = on 01/19/2016 02:31 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
Heheh first idea struck down!

Second idea is still alive! "HAH! not going to get me copper! nyah see! I gotta talk like this see!"

1. previous spell costs no mana/less mana/mana returned 1-10 depending on lore random element.

2. Duration increase 1 second to 5 seconds depending on lore random element

3. Crit weight/damage weighting to next offensive cast.

GBB
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{{saved-post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1188
| author = HJELTE
| date = on 01/19/2016 04:32 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>Critical aim effect (+10 to bolt crit weighted applied when proc'd chance is realized).''

425 does this... so kind of redundant of other spell effects available to a wizard... and seems very fiery rather than airy.

~Whirlin
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1189
| author = ROLFARD
| date = on 01/19/2016 04:44 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
'mana-surge' flare on rapidfire would disable caster types with a 'slow' of a number of seconds equal to whats remaining on rapidfire before they can cast again. this will help with sentries or other things that can kill you with an implode if they can get a cast off while staying true to what rapidfire would offer...outcasting your target.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1190
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 01/19/2016 04:52 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
Anything that relies on a "flare" is really not a reliable hunting tool. None of the other 3 pures has to rely on flares at all for either mass crowd control or instant kills. With sufficient post-cap training and gear, they are all able to achieve near 100% on both fronts.
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{{saved-post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1191
| author = MEKK1
| date = on 01/19/2016 05:09 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
Since the problem is only that a human can't use the proc effectively, why not just make it autocast? A free cast even.

Drauz
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{{saved-post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = RROY
| date = on 01/19/2016 05:20 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
No new ideas from me, I see all the ones I came up with are already posted. Bravo for the ideas from everyone.

Just an elf about town...
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{{saved-post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = XYXTUS
| date = on 01/19/2016 05:44 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>Anything that relies on a "flare" is really not a reliable hunting tool. None of the other 3 pures has to rely on flares at all for either mass crowd control or instant kills.(LADYFLEURS)''

Admittedly, my sorcerer does not rely on flares, but neither does he have "reliable" mass crowd control in any of the capped hunting areas. 410 (which wizards have) works some. So do 720 and 709 (709 VERY nicely but still not "reliable" especially with a large crowd), but given three or more creatures, sometimes even two depending on the exact creatures, his reaction about half the time is to move and wait for better odds. Nor do I have any instant kills. 711 is efficient when not outnumbered, 720 of limited use especially with leaving no corpse, and 719 gives me a crit kill on fetish masters about 25-50% of the time (AFTER 703, Hex curse, and possibly 709), and on soul siphons slightly more often.

Sorcerer is my only capped pure, so I can't speak to the efficacy of crowd control and instant kills of the other pures in the same situation, but for sorcerers it's far from the walk in the park you seem to think it is.

--Hal
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1194
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 01/19/2016 05:58 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>Sorcerer is my only capped pure, so I can't speak to the efficacy of crowd control and instant kills of the other pures in the same situation, but for sorcerers it's far from the walk in the park you seem to think it is.''

I don't know what your training or gear is like, but the typical min-maxed post-cap sorcerer can achieve both. See Nindon. Your mass crowd control is called 135.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = OBSERVER
| date = on 01/19/2016 06:10 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
Some thoughts from the PC. Some may have already made their way here, so excuse the double posts. Edited for content because I don't want to lose my posting privileges.


double cast makes the most sense.

extending the duration of rapid fire maybe

Definitely agree with double cast... at such low % proc rates, and proc rate growth, I don't think it'd be that overpowered. Especially when you consider that the double-attack cast wouldn't be able to proc on the final hit of the target.

I still like double cast (it's RAPID FIRE. For firing rapidly) but if they want something more unique some kind of special flare based on the element being used? Default to some generic elemental torrent of energy effect if it's a spell that wouldn't make sense on for some reason.

all do a small-mid extra crit hit potentially and cause:
earth - pelt with rocks, extra crush damage with special effect of causing target to kneel (extra damage if already prone?)
air - air blast knocks target off-balance, forces stance to offensive
fire - superheat held items (like elementals) potentially cause target to drop weapon/shield
ice / water - freeze target in place, like casting 512 (including enabling the 903 lore conversion to 1709)
lightning - rapid shock targets nervous system, prevents preping/casting spells for duration
steam - superneated steam blinds target causing AS/DS/EBP penalty
acid - similar to 705 disentegrate lore proc (reduce weapon/armor effectiveness)
if a spell that has random elemental effects or it's a non-elemental spell: assailed with raw elemental energy, maybe a random effect from above or incur RT or something


I wouldn't mind a mana leech proc that's separate from the regular mana leech cooldown.
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{{saved-post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1196
| author = ROLFARD
| date = on 01/19/2016 06:33 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
double cast with the same 'proc' chance as a chronomage dagger (for up to 3 attacks for the price of one!)
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{{saved-post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1197
| author = PC1234
| date = on 01/19/2016 07:20 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
I really like the mana surge suggestion. (How about a flare that prevents ungrouped casters from casting due to a mana surge in the room.) That would be my #1 pick.


Since 515 can be used offensively and defensively, this would also work:

- Double/triple cast (It automatically recasts the previous spell cast at no mana cost.)

{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|Air lore is not the right lore to be using for this, given every other offensive benefit takes fire. Either that, or we need to be able to 3x lores, because the way training is split 4 ways with such high seeds for all means that no matter what, every post-cap wizard is going to be pretty mediocre.
|}

This is a good point!
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1198
| author = PCOFFEY77
| date = on 01/19/2016 07:51 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
I think the option should be able to be set by the user whether he/she wants the spell recast.
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{{saved-post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = OBSERVER
| date = on 01/19/2016 08:14 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
Having a double cast at the full cost of the spell would indeed be a double-edged sword. If anything, I think it lends that option weight as it in a way balances itself. I agree that a flag would be a good option if this solution was implemented.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1200
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 01/19/2016 08:32 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
I still don't think flares are in any way the solution, especially if lores are involved.
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{{saved-post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = PC1234
| date = on 01/19/2016 08:34 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
I would rather have something else if the extra cast costs mana. The mana pulse defense would be more useful for example. Most people are rarely going to see this happen as it is.
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{{saved-post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = CANDIDE
| date = on 01/19/2016 09:04 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
Maybe the next cast can have a seed/lore boost. So if the next spell is Acid bolt and it would have a earth /water lore boosted.

gbb
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{{saved-post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1203
| author = MEKK1
| date = on 01/19/2016 10:03 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>>I still don't think flares are in any way the solution, especially if lores are involved.>> LadyFleur''

Perhaps an idea from you would help?

Drauz
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1204
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 01/20/2016 01:28 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
Tie a spell to it, and when RF procs, have it cast that spell automatically for no mana.

Like Cloak of Shadows, but in reverse.

Also, make the spell do 100x its normal damage with max crit weighting added, of course.

~ Methais
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1205
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 01/20/2016 01:46 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
A couple of changes just rolled around to 515. Here are the details!

- The base cooldown of the spell has changed from 180 seconds to 90 seconds, and the reduction from Elemental Mana Control has changed to (0.3 * (Skill Bonus - 100)). This still results in a 30 second cooldown with 300 skill bonus in EMC, but makes the cooldown more forgiving with less skill in EMC.

- The air lore effect is no longer a chance to get 0s cast RT. It has been changed (With the same % chances) to cause the spell being cast to be channeled without incurring channeling roundtime. So, at 55 ranks of air lore, each spell cast has a 10% chance to be channeled while under the effect of Rapid Fire without hard RT. One thing to note is that when this effect occurs while casting a warding spell, the caster is treated as if they were in offensive stance for the purposes of determining the channeling bonus.

~ Konacon
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1207
| author = KEITHOBAD
| date = on 01/20/2016 01:57 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
That's a pretty cool change, I can dig it.

I suggest our next move to be to grind a bit more benefit out of channeled bolts :D

Specifically less chance at hitting limbs, would be my personal preference. 46% limb-shot is a little high for the risk IMHO. Lets get that down to around 33% and I think we'll be getting somewheres.
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{{saved-post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1208
| author = DRAFIX
| date = on 01/20/2016 02:14 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
So instead of going faster, we're going even slower with this 515 change, even when we've voiced that being slower is the cause of most of the problems here.

Instead of 19% chance of doubling my damage, firing my flares off my staff, procing the ensorcelling, I get a 19% chance to slightly increase my damage.

I think this change is a further nerf rather than a boon.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1209
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 01/20/2016 02:19 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''> I think this change is a further nerf rather than a boon.''

A large majority of the people speaking up here were saying that the 0s cast RT wasn't even usable and it they wanted something else. Based on that information, simply removing the air lore completely wouldn't have even been a nerf.

This is something different. I'm genuinely sorry you don't like it.

~ Konacon
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1210
| author = OBSERVER
| date = on 01/20/2016 02:20 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
Well, did your cooldown time increase or decrease with this change, Drafix?
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1211
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 01/20/2016 02:22 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|DRAFIX
|-
|So instead of going faster, we're going even slower with this 515 change, even when we've voiced that being slower is the cause of most of the problems here.
|-
|Instead of 19% chance of doubling my damage, firing my flares off my staff, procing the ensorcelling, I get a 19% chance to slightly increase my damage.
|-
|I think this change is a further nerf rather than a boon.
|}

You realize a good number of people complained that they didn't like the 0 second castRT effect? Repeatedly. We made a change based upon that feedback. I was personally moved by Methais' campaign to have the previous effect replaced because it was "useless".

GameMaster Estild
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{{saved-post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1213
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/20/2016 02:36 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>- The base cooldown of the spell has changed from 180 seconds to 90 seconds, and the reduction from Elemental Mana Control has changed to (0.3 * (Skill Bonus - 100)). This still results in a 30 second cooldown with 300 skill bonus in EMC, but makes the cooldown more forgiving with less skill in EMC.''

This is even more of a nerf. I don't understand why 29 seconds was not only not enough, you increased it to 30 seconds. Please reconsider so that it can be reduced further with sufficient post-cap training, not less.

As for the second part, this is better than 0 CT because a human can't use that, but I'm not sure it's enough to address the fact that wizards are now the only pures without the ability to ensure an instant kill with sufficient post-cap training and enhancives. Perhaps someone can run some numbers as to the efficacy of the channeled bolts.
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{{saved-post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = DRAFIX
| date = on 01/20/2016 02:37 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
But you can see how this is a nerf?

Instead of being able to double my damage and proc my runestaff 19% of the time at double mana cost and 0 RT, I can now only slightly boost my damage (nowhere near 2x damage AND I don't get to proc my staff)

Secondly I have voiced before that all you need to do was hold down the incant 901 macro button and anyone can take advantage of this without even needing a script.

I'd much rather have 0 rt double damage/double flares/faster spellups than the very slight difference channel makes.
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{{saved-post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = DRAFIX
| date = on 01/20/2016 02:38 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|Well, did your cooldown time increase or decrease with this change, Drafix?
|}

Since I'm post cap with 202 emc, no change. This however is a positive change for lower level people who can't afford EMC.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1216
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/20/2016 02:39 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>Since I'm post cap with 202 emc, no change. This however is a positive change for lower level people who can't afford EMC.''

It did change, since if you have 202 ranks EMC, you went from a 29 second cooldown to a 30 second one now.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1217
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 01/20/2016 03:09 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>The air lore effect is no longer a chance to get 0s cast RT. It has been changed (With the same % chances) to cause the spell being cast to be channeled without incurring channeling roundtime. So, at 55 ranks of air lore, each spell cast has a 10% chance to be channeled while under the effect of Rapid Fire without hard RT. One thing to note is that when this effect occurs while casting a warding spell, the caster is treated as if they were in offensive stance for the purposes of determining the channeling bonus.''

What happens if you're casting a spell that you can't channel? Is the whole proc wasted?

''>prep 415''
You trace a simple rune while intoning the mystical phrase for Elemental Strike...
Your spell is ready.
''>channel shaman''
You can only channel certain spells for extra power.

~ Methais
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{{saved-post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = DRAFIX
| date = on 01/20/2016 03:10 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
I'm guessing too bad. Just like this change.. too bad.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1219
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 01/20/2016 03:11 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''> What happens if you're casting a spell that you can't channel? Is the whole proc wasted?''

The effect can't occur when casting spells that can't be channeled.

~ Konacon
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{{saved-post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = OBSERVER
| date = on 01/20/2016 03:15 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
How about making Rapid Fire able to be either evoked for the old version, cast for the new one? Or whichever method makes the most sense.

Choices are always nice.
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{{saved-post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 01/20/2016 03:18 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>You realize a good number of people complained that they didn't like the 0 second castRT effect? Repeatedly. We made a change based upon that feedback. I was personally moved by Methais' campaign to have the previous effect replaced because it was "useless". -Estild''

Technically I said it was useless without a script (or doing this http://rs820.pbsrc.com/albums/zz126/WhatWillComeOfThis/Funny%20Random%20Thingies/218654001_l.gif~c200), so for anyone using a script to take advantage of the 0 RT proc, it is a nerf. I think it would have made more sense to just proc a double cast, whether it costs mana or not. It's not like we'd be doing it with a bunch of extra CS like 240 on a 60% (I think) proc rate, but that's just me.

I'm just curious what happens now when you're casting something that can't be channeled with the new change.

''>It did change, since if you have 202 ranks EMC, you went from a 29 second cooldown to a 30 second one now.''



''>incant 515''
''>You recite a series of mystical phrases while raising your hands, invoking Rapid Fire...''
''>Your spell is ready.''
''>You gesture.''
''>You feel the magic surge through you.''
''>Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.''
''>''
''>[ Rapid Fire: +0:01:00, 0:01:00 remaining. ]''

''>stop 515''
''>With a moment's concentration, you terminate the Rapid Fire spell.''
''>You feel the surge of magic depart.''
''>As the surge of magic departs, you feel a slight elemental fatigue settle in.''
''>[ Rapid Fire Recovery: +0:00:29, 0:00:29 remaining. ]''


~ Methais
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 01/20/2016 03:26 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>The effect can't occur when casting spells that can't be channeled. -Konacon''

Regardless of whether I'd be mashing my keyboard for a 0 RT proc before this update(which I probably wouldn't be), factually speaking, this is still a nerf for a large number of spells.

I don't really have a problem with the current proc, but the oversight that it's nerfing spells that don't channel should still be addressed.

~ Methais
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1225
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/20/2016 03:26 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>>[ Rapid Fire Recovery: +0:00:29, 0:00:29 remaining. ]''

Are you sure that the 1 second didn't go by between your incant and stop? The update post said 30 seconds.

Still, the cooldown is too long post-cap and a flare that is less than 10% for the average user doesn't address the fact that the other pures can achieve guaranteed, effective instant kills with their CS spells and wizards can't.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1228
| author = ASHRAAM
| date = on 01/20/2016 03:38 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>>Regardless of whether I'd be mashing my keyboard for a 0 RT proc before this update(which I probably wouldn't be), factually speaking, this is still a nerf for a large number of spells.''

It might be a slight gain in the mana department and save you a few casts as long as you're using something to deal damage that does have channel benefits. I imagine channeling bolts or 519/502 will require 10% fewer casts in a single hunt because you get 20% chance to inflict extra damage via channel?
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{{saved-post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1229
| author = DRAFIX
| date = on 01/20/2016 03:38 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>>[ Rapid Fire Recovery: +0:00:29, 0:00:29 remaining. ]''
That 29 second duration was based on the old formula. Obviously what is being displayed there is old information before this new spell change cough I mean nerf cough.

202 emc ranks = 302 skill.
The new formula is:

90 seconds - trunc((302 skill - 100) * 0.3) = 30 seconds.
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{{saved-post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1230
| author = DRAFIX
| date = on 01/20/2016 03:41 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|I imagine channeling bolts or 519/502 will require 10% fewer casts in a single hunt because you get 20% chance to inflict extra damage via channel?
|}

502 - wrong. Damage is capped on 502 such that even if you had a +500 end roll you'd still be doing about 65 damage total.
519 - Even with the concussion boost, 519 channeled version will add +20 to your end roll result which results in a negligible boost to damage. (asusming you have 1 empty hand while using a runestaff)
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1231
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/20/2016 03:51 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
The cooldown doesn't make sense to be lowered at lower levels, while further penalizing the capped and post-capped characters, because the post-cap group is the one with the mana to use 515 on a more regular basis in the first place. Secondly, the fact that this spell can STILL be cast on others just makes no sense given all of the other ways it was nerfed for wizards themselves. Outside users are the ones who can afford the 5 mana penalty and lowering the cooldown for them really makes no sense.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1232
| author = CANDIDE
| date = on 01/20/2016 03:54 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
Holding down the incant 901 macro or scripting this to my advantage isn't something I care about. I can see that IF by some miracle I began to take advantage of this by scripting it would be wonderful but I like the idea of casting different spells for benefit (like 504/912 or 410 or 909/502/519 or bolt of my choice/ in the first 3 seconds of seeing a creature)

GBB
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1233
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 01/20/2016 03:55 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>It might be a slight gain in the mana department and save you a few casts as long as you're using something to deal damage that does have channel benefits. I imagine channeling bolts or 519/502 will require 10% fewer casts in a single hunt because you get 20% chance to inflict extra damage via channel?''

Maybe, but I find myself casting 415 a lot more than 519 now. It's just better than Immolate in situations where you want damage. Plus it frequently knocks the target down. It's not really some earth shattering deal, I just think it's kind of weak just based on principle that a lot of spells are going to lose an option with Rapid Fire, even if it was a weak option, which is still better than no option.

Combat spells that can't be channeled:

501
504 (has multi-target version with air lore, I know)
505 (CS version, I'm assuming Tonis Bolt can be channeled)
512 (lol)
514
516
525 (lol)
530

912
914
915
917

409
412
413
415
417




~ Methais
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1234
| author = DRAFIX
| date = on 01/20/2016 04:00 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|Combat spells that can't be channeled:
|}

that's just the offensive spells.. what about every other utility and defensive spell?

401
402
403
404
405
406
407
408
411
414
416
418
419
420

List gets absurd. This change alienates 95% of the spells from the lore benefits. The benefit itself is a mere fraction of what it used to be.

I like the suggestion of evoke version of 515 for the old 0 cast RT. Give the new channeling change for the people who are too lazy to use a script or not intelligent enough to hold down the repeat key.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1235
| author = OBSERVER
| date = on 01/20/2016 04:03 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
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I't be awesome to see a channeled version of 409 and 415.

Make it so!
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1236
| author = JACKBLACK
| date = on 01/20/2016 04:04 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>> You realize a good number of people complained that they didn't like the 0 second castRT effect? Repeatedly. We made a change based upon that feedback. I was personally moved by Methais' campaign to have the previous effect replaced because it was "useless".''

''>> GameMaster Estild''

To be fair... listening to any players after a nerf and making changes on those suggestions BEFORE allowing the players to really explore the changes, is simply a bad idea. There is just no way anyone had time to really comprehend and/or play with the new spell so, to be completely honest, their complaints should probably have been ignored.

Instead there's a change that maybe wasn't needed in the first place and results in a perceived further "nerf" to the ability.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1237
| author = CANDIDE
| date = on 01/20/2016 04:04 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
Why not just set it to those spells that cant be channeled dont trigger the effect and its simply carried over?

gbb
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1238
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/20/2016 04:07 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>There is just no way anyone had time to really comprehend and/or play with the new spell so, to be completely honest, their complaints should probably have been ignored.''

You don't have to hunt for a month to see what is wrong with the updated spell. Some things are just painfully obvious when you're post-cap and know what things should be and what they aren't achieving.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1239
| author = DOUG
| date = on 01/20/2016 04:21 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>>cough I mean nerf cough.''

A little late to the party with this one, so apologies. Also, betting this will be the unpopular opinion by a very wide margin, so again - apologies in advance.

Holy crap, gang! Nerf? Really?!

Couple of perspectives here - first and foremost, the team took 90 seconds (''NINETY SECONDS'') off of the base formula, to the benefit of every single wizard character in the lands pre-cap. Every. Single. One.

Now, true - very true - the net result adds 1 second (''ONE SECOND'') onto the back-end, and that does in fact impact the well-post-capped wizard.

Let's combine those two thoughts for just a moment. For the first 95 to 100 levels, the wizard character gets a benefit via this change. That may affect some 200 or so wizards (guessing). Then, some time passes where that benefit isn't quite the benefit it might be considered to be. At some point in there, the well-post-capped wizard will finally finish out that last rank of EMC training, and the net result will be that from that point forward, they're losing out on a 1 second return.

To really drive it home, I can't think of more than 5 wizards presently active who have spent enough time post-cap with enough EMC ranks to tick off those 1 second adds that ''might'', ''maybe'' have a leg to stand on that they've finally accumulated more in 1-second loss than they experienced in the prior 100 (85, actually) levels gain based on this new formula.

Now - I know, that's bound by the fact that we went from 'zero' to 'something' just days past. I get it. But, I mean, really - generations of wizards yet to be created will reap massive benefits. If I have to give up that 1 second on an old character to gain the benefit on new characters, I'm in.

Doug
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1240
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/20/2016 04:32 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>To really drive it home, I can't think of more than 5 wizards presently active who have spent enough time post-cap with enough EMC ranks to tick off those 1 second adds that might, maybe have a leg to stand on that they've finally accumulated more in 1-second loss than they experienced in the prior 100 (85, actually) levels gain based on this new formula.''

So just because it only affects a few, those few who have spent the most time in the lands should accept being even less than the lesser they were made to be? Glad you enjoy it. Don't speak for everyone.

''>Now - I know, that's bound by the fact that we went from 'zero' to 'something' just days past. I get it. But, I mean, really - generations of wizards yet to be created will reap massive benefits. If I have to give up that 1 second on an old character to gain the benefit on new characters, I'm in.''

No one should aspire to lower their end potential. What is the point?
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1241
| author = DRAFIX
| date = on 01/20/2016 04:33 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|''>>cough I mean nerf cough.''
|-
|
|-
|A little late to the party with this one, so apologies. Also, betting this will be the unpopular opinion by a very wide margin, so again - apologies in advance.
|-
|
|-
|Holy crap, gang! Nerf? Really?!
|-
|
|-
|Couple of perspectives here - first and foremost, the team took 90 seconds (''NINETY SECONDS'') off of the base formula, to the benefit of every single wizard character in the lands pre-cap. Every. Single. One.
|-
|
|-
|Now, true - very true - the net result adds 1 second (''ONE SECOND'') onto the back-end, and that does in fact impact the well-post-capped wizard.
|-
|
|-
|Let's combine those two thoughts for just a moment. For the first 95 to 100 levels, the wizard character gets a benefit via this change. That may affect some 200 or so wizards (guessing). Then, some time passes where that benefit isn't quite the benefit it might be considered to be. At some point in there, the well-post-capped wizard will finally finish out that last rank of EMC training, and the net result will be that from that point forward, they're losing out on a 1 second return.
|-
|
|-
|To really drive it home, I can't think of more than 5 wizards presently active who have spent enough time post-cap with enough EMC ranks to tick off those 1 second adds that ''might'', ''maybe'' have a leg to stand on that they've finally accumulated more in 1-second loss than they experienced in the prior 100 (85, actually) levels gain based on this new formula.
|-
|
|-
|Now - I know, that's bound by the fact that we went from 'zero' to 'something' just days past. I get it. But, I mean, really - generations of wizards yet to be created will reap massive benefits. If I have to give up that 1 second on an old character to gain the benefit on new characters, I'm in.
|-
|
|-
|Doug
|-
|
|}

Way to glaze over the last 10 posts regarding what nerf we're talking about and to go on to talk about the only 1 positive thing I didn't say was a nerf... do you even read bro?
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1242
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/20/2016 04:34 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
Literally all this does is continue to benefit the pocket mage, the pocket MA wizard who is not someone's main who goes around casting 515 at some other, actually powerful profession (see clerics or sorcerers), instead of the post-cap wizard themselves. Considering the prevalence of pocket buff and enchanting wizards was a large reason all these nerfs had to happen in the first place, catering to them hardly seems like a desirable goal.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1243
| author = DOUG
| date = on 01/20/2016 04:42 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>>So just because it only affects a few, those few who have spent the most time in the lands should accept being even less than the lesser they were made to be? Glad you enjoy it. Don't speak for everyone.''

Thanks! But I'm not. I said "I'm in." Didn't say you were, or had to be, or anything of the sort. Offered a perspective - didn't speak for anyone else.

''>>No one should aspire to lower their end potential. What is the point?''

Not sure I get this. But I'll take a running stab. This is a ''multi-player'' game, not a ''single-player best shootout'' game. The point, specifically, is that I am welcoming a change to the game that seems to be in the interests of ''multiple'' players (or at least, characters).

''>>Way to glaze over the last 10 posts regarding what nerf we're talking about and to go on to talk about the only 1 positive thing I didn't say was a nerf... do you even read bro?''

Absolutely fair question - I thought I did, but I might have been guilty of a bit of glazing. I'll go back and reread - and self-correct as necessary. Thanks for pointing it out. But before I do, let me just say that I while I quoted you, Drafix (or at least, referred to your nerf cough ;), my response wasn't singularly targeted.

I'm going to guess, though, that by the responses I quoted and replied to above - as well as those others sure to follow, I'm fairly certain I didn't glaze too much. More to follow, as needed. . .

Doug
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1244
| author = DRAFIX
| date = on 01/20/2016 04:49 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|But you can see how this is a nerf?
|-
|
|-
|Instead of being able to double my damage and proc my runestaff 19% of the time at double mana cost and 0 RT, I can now only slightly boost my damage (nowhere near 2x damage AND I don't get to proc my staff)
|-
|
|-
|Secondly I have voiced before that all you need to do was hold down the incant 901 macro button and anyone can take advantage of this without even needing a script.
|-
|
|-
|I'd much rather have 0 rt double damage/double flares/faster spellups than the very slight difference channel makes.
|}

Also also the fact that spells that cannot be channeled get no lore benefit from this spell anymore. That's pretty much 95% of all the spells, every defensive spell, every utility spell, a ton of offensive spells like 410/912/409/415/417.

That's the nerf.
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1245
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/20/2016 04:51 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>The point, specifically, is that I am welcoming a change to the game that seems to be in the interests of multiple players (or at least, characters).''

Actually, the point of all these nerfs seems to have been that there are TOO many wizards, period, so why would we want to encourage MORE pocket mages to be raised? 515 still isn't self-cast and lowering the cooldown threshold only punishes those who actually use the spell (post-capped) to benefit those who use them as pocket mages.

Do you really think more younger wizards, who actually play wizard mains, are suddenly going to use 515 more now that their cooldown is lower? No, they will still have the same mana issues they had even under the pre-nerf 515. The ones who actually benefit from this, again at the expense of people with wizard mains, are the non-wizards.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1246
| author = DOUG
| date = on 01/20/2016 04:55 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>> I thought I did, but I might have been guilty of a bit of glazing. I'll go back and reread - and self-correct as necessary. Thanks for pointing it out.''

And the end result is yes - thank you, Drafix. I used your nerf comment, but didn't tie it at all to your discussion about proc chances and getting to double down on other items that gave you material benefit.

And so, I am sorry. I still stand by my point - but shouldn't have attributed your comment in my perspective. I'll strive to do better.

For my own personal curiosity, Drafix - does this change literally prevent your runestaff proc? Or is it the chance of a / an additional proc in the same second (presuming you're fast enough ;) that is lost?

Doug
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1247
| author = DOUG
| date = on 01/20/2016 04:58 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>>Considering the prevalence of pocket buff and enchanting wizards was a large reason all these nerfs had to happen in the first place, catering to them hardly seems like a desirable goal.''

This might be a valid counter-point to my perspective. I'm not sure I'm bought in just yet, but if every single wizard draws benefit from this change, the subgroup of wizard that is 'pocket, keep haste / rapidfire up on partner profession' is in that group. That's logical.

I wonder if the change was only to the self-cast, and when active non-natively (cast on another) the old time standard still applies. Anyone?

Doug
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1248
| author = DOUG
| date = on 01/20/2016 05:08 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>>Do you really think more younger wizards, who actually play wizard mains, are suddenly going to use 515 more now that their cooldown is lower?''

Suddenly? No, I suspect a great many of those who until very recently used RapdFire are either pissed, or trying to sort through their tactics now to figure out how best to advance. Or both?

But, as tactics get sorted out, I think more 'younger' (meaning not post-cap here) will start using the spell again. And I further emphasize that this is now potentially a viable tactic for those wizards who are even younger than 'younger', because of the significant time shift.

I don't realistically expect the 15th level mage to start relying on this spell as a staple. But then - I never did have that expectation.

To the rest of your point - I'm still on 'jury is out'. If the time affects both self cast and other cast, I'd say the concern about pocket wizards is valid. I am just hopeful the NIR team saw that one in advance, and are smiling about their intended response.

Doug
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1249
| author = DRAFIX
| date = on 01/20/2016 05:09 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
With 0 rt it is a free action. That means the 901 you just cast didn't cost you any RT to cast it, therefore you can instantly cast again.

If that point is lost to you, then the benefits of 0 rt haste II and old rapid fire would be lost to you. If you don't see how 0 rt results in a boon, I don't know how else to explain it to you.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1250
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/20/2016 05:10 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>If the time affects both self cast and other cast, I'd say the concern about pocket wizards is valid. I am just hopeful the NIR team saw that one in advance, and are smiling about their intended response.''

515 shouldn't be allowed to be other cast at all, just as 215 isn't, without a lot of lore and the wizard present and grouped. If it wasn't available to outside users, the nerfs should not have had to be so onerous nor should much of a post-cap cooldown have been required at all. 1 second CT and non-stackability already reduced the spell's benefits significantly. The cooldown while still allowing other cast is overkill.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1251
| author = DRAFIX
| date = on 01/20/2016 05:14 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
People who complained that they couldn't take advantage of 0 rt proc are basically saying they can't use Haste II or old rapid fire because they are too slow to hold down a button. I cannot honestly believe how people find holding onto a button on the keyboard a difficult thing to do.

Seriously, it's easy, try it ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;. Really not that hard.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1252
| author = RROY
| date = on 01/20/2016 05:15 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
Well at 88 trains and singled in the pertinent skills I went from 1:30 cooldown to 1:00 so its a buff for me there, and the channeled effect is more useful than that 0 sec rt proc, so I'm liking these changes. The extra cast of spell was a nice idea too though.

Just an elf about town...
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1253
| author = RAGGLER
| date = on 01/20/2016 05:16 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
Unfortunately this actually is a really huge nerf. What some of you guys are forgetting is EMC enhancives. Sure 202 ranks of EMC brought the previous version down to 29 seconds of cooldown and the new one brings it down to 30, but the real nerf is that under the previous version, I had already brought my cooldown down to 4 seconds with +50 EMC enhancives, but now under the new version, I can only bring it to 15 seconds. I'm hoping we can come to a bit more of a compromise.

Isle Snack Muncher
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1254
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/20/2016 05:16 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>People who complained that they couldn't take advantage of 0 rt proc are basically saying they can't use Haste II or old rapid fire because they are too slow to hold down a button. I cannot honestly believe how people find holding onto a button on the keyboard a difficult thing to do.''

I don't think anyone said they can't hold down a button, but holding down a button isn't a reasonable solution for the problem. It's not only annoying, but can be construed as DDOS on the system if you hammer type ahead lines too hard and can get you disconnected if the game is lagging heavily (see Duskruin).
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1255
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/20/2016 05:19 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>Unfortunately this actually is a really huge nerf. What some of you guys are forgetting is EMC enhancives. Sure 202 ranks of EMC brought the previous version down to 29 seconds of cooldown and the new one brings it down to 30, but the real nerf is that under the previous version, I had already brought my cooldown down to 4 seconds with +50 EMC enhancives, but now under the new version, I can only bring it to 15 seconds. I'm hoping we can come to a bit more of a compromise. ''

I hope we can go back to no worse than the original cooldown. I'd rather have the first update than the new.
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1256
| author = DOUG
| date = on 01/20/2016 05:26 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>>If you don't see how 0 rt results in a boon, I don't know how else to explain it to you.''

Look, I know this hits hard (speaking about the whole RapidFire situation). And I assure you, that part you don't need to explain. I suspect you already know that.

Thanks for clarifying the runestaff proc does still happen under 515, it just isn't free anymore.

Doug
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1258
| author = DRAFIX
| date = on 01/20/2016 05:29 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
Typeahead lines are a commodity sold by Simutronics to premium subscribers and people who BUY them using premium points. The fact that you don't have them is not really the issue here.

Even holding onto the button is limited in speed by your keyboard's repeat settings. It could be set to repeat twice per second or as fast as possible. You could easily have just timed it so that you hit the key 3 times per second or 5 times per second. How often you hit the key is not my concern.

My concern is people complaining that they can't hit one key repeatedly to take advantage of the 0 rt free action. If they complain about having arthritis issues or not having fingers or have the reaction time of a slot, then hold down the key by all means and have it repeat 3 times a second.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1259
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/20/2016 05:31 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>Typeahead lines are a commodity sold by Simutronics to premium subscribers and people who BUY them using premium points. The fact that you don't have them is not really the issue here.''

I don't know where I said I didn't have them, but even those are limited, nor should they be required for basic spell benefits to function. That defeats the whole purpose.

''>Even holding onto the button is limited in speed by your keyboard's repeat settings. It could be set to repeat twice per second or as fast as possible. You could easily have just timed it so that you hit the key 3 times per second or 5 times per second. How often you hit the key is not my concern. My concern is people complaining that they can't hit one key repeatedly to take advantage of the 0 rt free action. If they complain about having arthritis issues or not having fingers or have the reaction time of a slot, then hold down the key by all means and have it repeat 3 times a second.''

You may enjoy that, but this is nothing but annoying and unreasonable. Even Methais agrees.

However, the cooldown formula change is a deal-breaker, as it further protects the pocket mage and outside users of 515 instead of capped wizards.
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1260
| author = DOUG
| date = on 01/20/2016 05:32 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>>What some of you guys are forgetting is EMC enhancives.''

Ahh, yep. I'll own not thinking about the 'above max enhancive' crowd.

Hell, as far as I'm concerned, anyone who has taken the time to collect (and actively wears, I might add) +50 in EMC enhancement devices deserves to have that +50 taken right off the front end, not the back end, of the formula. For for that matter, any enhancive EMC item at any level should function that way, perhaps.

Um. . .self cast only, though, please - for reasons I hope are obvious.

Doug
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1261
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/20/2016 05:34 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>Um. . .self cast only, though, please - for reasons I hope are obvious.''

If the entire spell were self-cast only, wizards wouldn't have to suffer such drastic tradeoffs.
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1262
| author = DOUG
| date = on 01/20/2016 05:42 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>>515 shouldn't be allowed to be other cast at all, just as 215 isn't, without a lot of lore and the wizard present and grouped. If it wasn't available to outside users, the nerfs should not have had to be so onerous nor should much of a post-cap cooldown have been required at all. 1 second CT and non-stackability already reduced the spell's benefits significantly. The cooldown while still allowing other cast is overkill.''

Not really anything to disagree with here. Just a note - we have no real idea all the discussions had by the dev team. This exact scenario might (hey, I did say ''might'') have been discussed and discarded for some reason.

I mean, let's be frank - Estild was involved in both. If the end result is different, I'm banking there's a reason, even if I don't understand it.

Doug
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1263
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/20/2016 05:47 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>Not really anything to disagree with here. Just a note - we have no real idea all the discussions had by the dev team. This exact scenario might (hey, I did say might) have been discussed and discarded for some reason.''

''>I mean, let's be frank - Estild was involved in both. If the end result is different, I'm banking there's a reason, even if I don't understand it.''

I agree we don't know what the internal discussions were, which is why we're revisiting this issue. Just as it was original said that self-cast haste wasn't possible because "that ship has sailed", in Wyrom's words, it's clear that it was deemed best for wizard development rather than the original proposal.

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask that Rapid Fire be revisited in the same fashion. The end result is that pocket mages and other users were protected at the expense of capped and post-cap wizards, who were meant to be the primary users of the spell to begin with. The end result is that already with the loss of 0 CT, wizards lost the ability to guarantee effective crowd control and instant kills when they are sufficiently post-cap, which other pures are still able to do.

It's ridiculous to see low level pocket mages parked outside a warcamp in a safe spot so that some sorcerer can pop in and out to get a 515 buff and farm necro energy. It further adds insult to injury when you consider how unbalanced ensorcell risk, reward, and time factors are compared to enchanting, but that is for another discussion.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1265
| author = KEITHOBAD
| date = on 01/20/2016 06:08 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
I have to admit I'm a bit surprised it didn't end up being self-cast only. I guess I should be glad? I dunno. I would bet it's used more for MA action than anything else. Are people really using this in group hunting on characters that aren't their own? Are other classes spells nerfed to be 'balanced' when under 515 or are wizard spells (bolts & 502) unique in that regard?
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1266
| author = DOUG
| date = on 01/20/2016 06:14 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>>The end result is that pocket mages and other users were protected at the expense of capped and post-cap wizards, who were meant to be the primary users of the spell to begin with.''

Yeah, well. . . damn. I'm still on the fence a bit, but I'm satisfied that the target's lore affects the spell, and that it's the same native or no.

Not that I'd wish ill on anyone, but the one clear signal we could have had . . . no smiling.

Doug
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1267
| author = DOUG
| date = on 01/20/2016 06:18 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
So. . .

anyone up for 0 CT, 1 minute hard duration, Water Lore and Air Lore as presently designed, cool down as presently designed, spell not autoprepped and only self cast?

Sheesh.

Doug
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1268
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 01/20/2016 06:21 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>> People who complained that they couldn't take advantage of 0 rt proc are basically saying they can't use Haste II or old rapid fire because they are too slow to hold down a button. I cannot honestly believe how people find holding onto a button on the keyboard a difficult thing to do.''

''>> Seriously, it's easy, try it ''

Some people prefer not to hunt by spamming commands as fast as the computer / internet will process them without regards to what is actually happening on the screen. 0 second RT pretty much caters to spamming or macroing. Anyone reading anything on the screen and responding accordingly would not benefit from that 0 seconds. The new benefit at least allows for everyone using the spell to benefit from it to some degree.

Seriously, think about it... really not that hard to understand.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1269
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/20/2016 06:23 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>Yeah, well. . . damn. I'm still on the fence a bit, but I'm satisfied that the target's lore affects the spell, and that it's the same native or no.''

I'm not satisfied with that because you know who can afford to ignore any cooldown mana penalties and just keep re-casting? The sorcerers and clerics using 302 and 702, that both have much higher damage and can access more CS boosters than wizards and their 502. Not to mention, for outside users who are meant to primarily be CS-based spell users, they can ignore any spirit drain penalties and hunt almost endlessly under this method. In comparison, wizards still largely have to keep spirit high enough to bolt as effectively as possible, since their CS-based spells both cost more and are less effective.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1270
| author = DOUG
| date = on 01/20/2016 06:32 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>>I'm not satisfied with that''

Yeah, I apparently didn't make my point clear.

I've satisfied for myself - in the sense that I just went and tested it - that the design is the same, native or non-native. Not that I was happy it was that way. Quite the opposite, that's completely counter to what I would have expected in a 'reasonable' design.

That's why I made the comment that I wouldn't like to take things away from people - but now I have to fall completely in the camp of 'why does this even make sense'. Which ultimately led me to my next post.

Doug
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1272
| author = RROY
| date = on 01/20/2016 06:36 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
I liked the 0 sec rt, but it really needed to change. A lot of people have been hunting with the walk into the room and blast everything instantly style. Now with the slowdown it will force us to use more caution and tactics.

I notice the script hunters whom may or may not even be at their keyboards have been hunting in my areas less and when they do, theres still some critters left for everyone else... So thats a benefit in and of itself.

Just an elf about town...
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1273
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/20/2016 06:37 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>That's why I made the comment that I wouldn't like to take things away from people - but now I have to fall completely in the camp of 'why does this even make sense'. Which ultimately led me to my next post.''

I don't like to take things away from people either, but I always believe that spell nerfs should protect their first and foremost end users before considering other classes, which were never intended to use them on a regular basis in the first place. When other profession-based spells were nerfed, everyone understood and accepted it (see 319). Wizards should not have to pay higher than necessary nerf penalties to protect other cast uses for other professions that can make more efficient and effective use of the spell, since it is not balanced around them.

You're right, it makes no sense.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1274
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/20/2016 06:39 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>anyone up for 0 CT, 1 minute hard duration, Water Lore and Air Lore as presently designed, cool down as presently designed, spell not autoprepped and only self cast?''

I think it's clear 0 CT is off the table for good. In light of that, I think self-cast and no cool down by cap (2x EMC) is reasonable.

However, something also needs to be done to address the fact that wizards now have no effective crowd control disabler and instant kill mechanism on a near guaranteed basis, the way the other pures still do.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1277
| author = KANDOR
| date = on 01/20/2016 07:00 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
I have little doubt that screen scroll contributed to the need for these changes. Look at what 506 and 515 had in common.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1278
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/20/2016 07:06 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
240/317 and 240/1115 cause just as much, if not more, screen scroll as 515. It's the double nerf of 0 CT and removal of 519's effectiveness that really crippled a wizard's post-cap ability to guarantee effective crowd control and reliable instant kills on the same level as the other pures.

As for 506's offensive capabilities, it largely achieves the same effect as before with sufficient training. You know who it was nerfed for? Non-wizards, which is how 515 changes should have been addressed to start.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1279
| author = DRAFIX
| date = on 01/20/2016 07:07 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|I have little doubt that screen scroll contributed to the need for these changes. Look at what 506 and 515 had in common.
|}

Yet.. nothing has changed in 506. I can still attack in 1 rt. But now my disarm/detect/pick box is also 1 rt. Overall it has been boosted so I can spam even faster with 506. If you haven't seen me clean up the bench or loot the room before then I can see how you can make the assumption that screen scroll was caused solely by rapid fire and haste. Trust me, screen scroll and general mass scrolling of text can easily be created by movement scripts. Your logic is sadly flawed.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1280
| author = CAPTAINREDBEARD
| date = on 01/20/2016 07:10 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
Since 2008 I have been playing a wizard in one form or another and was fine with them how they are. There was talking initially starting with Naos of an E-Lore review to spice up the profession and make it more interesting and make the lore training a meaningful part of the training. It would require nerfing haste/rapid fire, but in the end we would get too see a beautiful master plan of wizards in harmony with lore training unfold. What has become obvious over the last few months is that there is no beautiful plan for wizards, people (GM's) are just current just throwing crap together in no coherent way. Changing things overnight based on player feedback. You guys need to rollback ALL of these changes and start over with a plan.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1281
| author = KEITHOBAD
| date = on 01/20/2016 07:10 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
I think arguing for the 0RT thing is misguided. The only way to benefit from that is by mashing. By the time you see "0RT" process that, react, and have that instruction arrive at the SIMU servers, you are almost certainly burned through most, if not all, of that 1sec.

This is why we were pushing for double-cast. An automatic double-cast would fix the timing issue of trying to react in under a second without changing the damage of the effect. I'm not sure why this was so quickly dismissed as an option by the GMs.

To be clear, I don't mind the recent solution. But since I don't use 515 very often, my opinion might not be most useful.
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1282
| author = CANDIDE
| date = on 01/20/2016 08:38 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
I will say that I see where the scripting, quick button pressing/mashing crowd see this as 20 percent of the time I could get a 100 percent increase in damage instead of 20 percent of the time I get a 20-40 percent increase in damage (though now with channeled bolts that would be better), but I still would rather keep the 1 second rt. I think this is a good change that just needs the right oomph where the "nerf" is just a change.

I do not know why the down time calculation was changed, maybe it was because someone had already gotten it down to 4 seconds reup and the GM's didn't want that. Maybe it was because they wanted Wizards between 15-100 a chance of using it a bit more. Maybe a little bit of both.

I do not see a circumstance where 29 seconds would be the savior instead of 30 though.

Making this spell self cast only would annoy me personally (as an archer that casts 404 on a bard) but I can see advantage if wizards can get back the 100 percent uptime.

I really do not care for the 4 hours stacking.

In the end what has been taken from wizards with Rapid Fire changes? The ability to instantly kill something? I really think that Wizards will be able to kill fast enough now. It would be nice if wizards had something like 316 or 1120 or 504 was more room capable but maybe we have to all be air lore users now.

GBB
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1283
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/20/2016 08:40 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>In the end what has been taken from wizards with Rapid Fire changes? The ability to instantly kill something? I really think that Wizards will be able to kill fast enough now. It would be nice if wizards had something like 316 or 1120 or 504 was more room capable but maybe we have to all be air lore users now.''

Please don't say this with a straight face as a bard main with 1030.
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1284
| author = CANDIDE
| date = on 01/20/2016 09:27 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
Everyone always runs back to 1030 at bards. I hunt warcamps all the time (where is was nerfed) no 1030. Stop with the you have it so well you have xxx. In my case I play a capped Bard/Cleric/Wizard/ just about equally now. Concentrate on what it will take to get Wizards to a point where what has been done to 515 is forgiven/forgotten.

"It would be nice if wizards had something like 316 or 1120 or 504 was more room capable.GBB"

Like that.

GBB
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1285
| author = DRAFIX
| date = on 01/20/2016 11:49 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
<br>
A shan warrior rolls around on the ground, trying to smother the flames that surround it.
A shan warrior struggles to rise but fails in the attempt.
''>l''
[Vornavian Coast, Forest Road]
Bushes close in around the path here, and appear to persist on the path in spite of being regularly cut back. Brambles and thorn bushes sport vibrant flowers, but bite and tear at anyone or anything coming too close. You also see the yellow Drafix disk, a gleaming silver flamberge and a shan warrior that is lying down.
Obvious paths: north, south
The flames surrounding a shan warrior flare up violently...
... 5 points of damage!
Minor burns to back. Looks uncomfortable.

The flames around a shan warrior continue to burn!
A shan warrior struggles to rise but fails in the attempt.
The flames surrounding a shan warrior flare up violently...
... 5 points of damage!
Minor burns to right leg. That hurts a bit.

The flames around a shan warrior continue to burn!
A shan warrior struggles to rise but fails in the attempt.
The flames surrounding a shan warrior flare up violently...
... 10 points of damage!
Minor burns to back. Looks uncomfortable.
The shan warrior howls out one last time and dies.



Still moving when on fire. Are you sure it's applying RT. Doesn't seem like anything works... except the nerfs...
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1286
| author = DRAFIX
| date = on 01/20/2016 11:50 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
<br>
If there were any doubt, that was the evoked version.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1287
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 01/21/2016 01:11 AM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|Drafix
|-
|Still moving when on fire.
|}

Please post a complete log, from cast until the spell wears off.

GameMaster Estild
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1288
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 01/21/2016 06:14 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>anyone up for 0 CT, 1 minute hard duration, Water Lore and Air Lore as presently designed, cool down as presently designed, spell not autoprepped and only self cast?''

I'm all for it. Unfortunately I doubt the GMs will be, so our only hope is that they actually address bolts in a meaningful way instead of putting band-aids on cancer and telling us to be grateful.

~ Methais
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1289
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 01/21/2016 06:17 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
Why not just make Rapid Fire work like Celerity with the cooldown? As in wizards get no cooldown, everyone else gets the cooldown that's in place. If you're worried about other classes training down the cooldown, then remove that part of it.

Maybe I missed a post, but I still haven't heard the reasoning for wizards getting a cooldown on it.

~ Methais
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1290
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 01/21/2016 06:25 AM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
<br>
I realize it's an ice creature and the "on fire" effect doesn't apply, as shown in the messaging. But shouldn't the initial RT still be applying? This is evoke btw.



You gesture at a huge ice elemental.
CS: +530 - TD: +366 + CvA: +25 + d100: +84 == +273
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a huge ice elemental and it bursts into flame causing 59 points of damage!
... 70 points of damage!
... 80 points of damage!
... 50 points of damage!
... 30 points of damage!

The flame surrounding a huge ice elemental quickly die down.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.




look
[Elemental Confluence - ]
The terrain is a thick quagmire of mud and crushed rock. Bubbles rise to the surface with wet gurgles, sending malodorous vapor into the air. Fiery jets shoot up from the depths of the muck, occasionally igniting the vapor with sickly virescent sparks. You also see a huge ice elemental and a pink tourmaline.
Obvious paths: east, south, southwest, west
''>Your ora claidhmore warms up some.''
''>''
A huge ice elemental releases a wave of cold blue energy at you!
An airy mist quickly gathers around you, carrying a harsh chill with it.
CS: +350 - TD: +487 + CvA: +14 + d100: +40 - -5 == -78
Warded off!
The mist leaves a thin layer of ice on the entire lower half of your body, but you easily shake it off.

~ Methais
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1291
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 01/21/2016 07:09 AM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|Methais
|-
|I realize it's an ice creature and the "on fire" effect doesn't apply, as shown in the messaging. But shouldn't the initial RT still be applying? This is evoke btw.
|}

No, as the disabling effect is due to the creature rolling around trying to extinguish the flame.

GameMaster Estild
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1292
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 01/21/2016 07:35 AM PST
| subject = Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
I've made a small update to Stone Skin (520) such that the lore benefit for the reactive flare now uses a seed 1 summation to determine the chance to trigger. In addition, the flare's minimal damage has been significantly raised. Both of these updates only apply toward creature attackers.

GameMaster Estild
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1293
| author = DRUMPEL
| date = on 01/21/2016 08:01 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
''>I've made a small update to Stone Skin (520) such that the lore benefit for the reactive flare now uses a seed 1 summation to determine the chance to trigger. In addition, the flare's minimal damage has been significantly raised. Both of these updates only apply toward creature attackers.''
''>GameMaster Estild''

I don't know....while the gesture is nice to see the benefit of the spell improved, the spell itself is not any better. I've only actually had stoneskin save my hide once. I was able to escape with about 3 health once the 5+ round stun wore off - thankfully I was in defensive stance when I got charged, gored and knocked on my back.

This was pre vibe flares. The vibe flares wouldn't have made a difference then even if I had a 15% chance for the flare to trigger (126 EL:E ranks) like I currently have.

I don't know....it just feels wrong to walk around with something that covers my whole body and it vibrates when touched.

I appreciate the bump on the seed, but it still lacks in its current form unless the flares have the ability to remove limbs or crit kill on a constant basis. Even then, what fun is it to be stunned, bleeding and laying next to a dead creature only to have more walk in and finish you off?

I still think the whole direction for what Stoneskin should do and what it currently does...I doubt the spell will ever shift direction to actually make it truly beneficial.

Keep plugging away, some day we might meet at the crossroads with a compromise.

-Drumpel
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1294
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 01/21/2016 08:13 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|Drumpel
|-
|I don't know....while the gesture is nice to see the benefit of the spell improved, the spell itself is not any better.
|}

As I noted in another thread, this was a quick fix. Something I could immediately do to make the spell better. If you don't think it was worth it, we'll avoid such things in the future and spells can stay as they are until such a time as they are fully reviewed.

GameMaster Estild
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1295
| author = CAPTAINREDBEARD
| date = on 01/21/2016 08:22 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
''>>If you don't think it was worth it, we'll avoid such things in the future and spells can stay as they are until such a time as they are fully reviewed.''


Thats the thought you should have had months ago. You shouldn't have done any of this until a solid plan and review of wizards was possible.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1296
| author = DRUMPEL
| date = on 01/21/2016 09:06 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
''>As I noted in another thread, this was a quick fix. Something I could immediately do to make the spell better. If you don't think it was worth it, we'll avoid such things in the future and spells can stay as they are until such a time as they are fully reviewed.''

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the hard work you guys put into the game, but some things just aren't worth it. You guys certainly have ideas and you're trying to adjust things here and there, but Stoneskin is kind of a lost cause and the slight flare chance to maybe, kind of hurt someone (maybe, if it even does flare) doesn't help the spell out. I probably have one of the few wizards (if not the only one) that even has enough EL:E ranks to achieve the 15% chance to have stoneskin flare.

With how lores benefit (or detract from, depends on how you view it) spells and with some of the current changes in spells....I now have to train in a single lore to keep the similar results that the old Haste used to provide.

Certainly I can choose to not train in Air Lore, but then I'm just leaving my wizard open to more chances of taking a beating or dying because I'm stuck in a longer RT. I can try to adjust to things now, but none of my other spells have changed to benefit the neutered Haste RT reduction for those that don't heavily train in Air Lore.

For now, I walk around wearing vibrating stoneskin - just don't have people touch me, I guess. Most likely it wouldn't flare if they did touch me, but we can't be taking that chance, can we?

As it currently stands, all wizards are better off training in Air Lore to help maintain the highest RT reduction we can achieve for the new Haste spell and we shouldn't really bother much with Water lore nor Earth Lore. Fire lore gives you the added damage bonus for 1 attack thru 425 and at least gives you a slight boost to instant kill for Immolation.

I could certainly post more on how I feel about all the changes - positive and negative, but I don't wish to get in a pissing match with NIRs or other people on the boards. We all have varying views on the recent changes made. It's just hard on the players end to take in these dramatic changes.

Like I said in my last post, keep plugging away at it. I'm sure we'll find a happy medium somewhere. Right now, on the player's end, we're just not there.

-Drumple
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1297
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 01/21/2016 09:11 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|Drumple
|-
|Certainly I can choose to not train in Air Lore, but then I'm just leaving my wizard open to more chances of taking a beating or dying because I'm stuck in a longer RT. I can try to adjust to things now, but none of my other spells have changed to benefit the neutered Haste RT reduction for those that don't heavily train in Air Lore.
|}

I think that's a fair assessment. What changes would you proposal to make Stone Skin better, specifically for Elemental Lore, Earth trained wizards (to lessen the overall impact for all wizards and to offer a competitive defense alternative to EL:A's Haste)?

GameMaster Estild
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1298
| author = ZENDADA
| date = on 01/21/2016 09:21 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
Thanks for listening to the feedback and adding an update to the update to how Earth Lore works with 520. I like how this gives the Earth Mage reactive flares like some armor has without having to have reactive flare armor! And of all flares the impact table is pretty sweet.

Chad, player of a few
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1299
| author = BHTM
| date = on 01/21/2016 09:22 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
Flare to increase the CvA?

Flare to decrease the df on incoming attacks?

Hisskra like ability to harden and cause a disarm of the creature attacking you?

-Richard/Fjalar.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1300
| author = EARTHDIVER
| date = on 01/21/2016 09:31 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
Flare to toss you into a different room! I.e., your stone skin hardens immediately before the attack and you are kicked like a rock into the other room (hey, at least you might be safe there?)

I'm fully open to responses on why this might be a terrible idea.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1301
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 01/21/2016 09:40 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
True Stone Skin flares, as in the attacker's skin turns to stone for X rounds, immobilizing them and giving crush based attacks during this period (i.e. 510) a chance to shatter the target into pieces, killing them instantly.

A mechanic like that would be better suited for an overall spell review, since other similar mechanics should exist with spells like 512 and a whole plethora of other synergy based things that wizard spells should be designed a round, but I don't even know if a spell review is on the table still.

Is a spell review still on the table? I'm pretty sure I saw a NIR mention it during HSN, but I don't remember who or exactly what was said, so it might have been nothing for all I remember.

~ Methais
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1302
| author = PC1234
| date = on 01/21/2016 09:41 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|I think that's a fair assessment. What changes would you proposal to make Stone Skin better, specifically for Elemental Lore, Earth trained wizards (to lessen the overall impact for all wizards and to offer a competitive defense alternative to EL:A's Haste)?
|-
|
|-
|GameMaster Estild
|}

When cast, spell 520 provides critical padding equal to EL:E ranks on seed 6.

Fine Print:
Stacks with armor padding.
Always on, this is not a % chance.

Haste allows you to recover quickly to attempt to avoid damage, this would allow you to attempt to ride out the wave and potentially survive.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1303
| author = TANDL
| date = on 01/21/2016 09:55 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
If it is meant to compete with haste I'd like to see it be some sort of flat bonus, instead of an proc. The always on aspect of haste is part of what makes it so beneficial and earth lore already has quite a few proc based defensive benefits.

Pardon if some of the following are repeats of other peoples:
DF reduction on incoming attacks
CMAN resistance (scaling phantom end roll reduction)
Resistance to some maneuvers.
Stun resistance.

Tal.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1304
| author = DOUG
| date = on 01/21/2016 09:55 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
''>>provides critical padding equal to EL:E ranks on seed 6.''

I have to admit, that would certainly drive up the instance of EL:E wizard lore training. The logic for selecting seed 6?

I was hoping we'd see something that might bring benefits of different types to different lores (not just earth).

Like, the Air attuned wizard, with EL:A at some seed, and the ability to avoid creature maneuvers.

Or, the Fire attuned wizard, with EL:F at some seed, and the ability to reduce crits (perhaps this suggestion).

Or the Earth attuned wizard, with EL:F at some seed, and the ability to reduce damage (significantly).

Or swap the last two - not trying to force a certain opinion here, just trying to broaden the perspective a bit. Definitely spell review level material, though.

Doug
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1305
| author = CANDIDE
| date = on 01/21/2016 09:56 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
My take is let the calculation from damage taken account for better Armor (if not already wearing said better armor) Each hit would lower the AsG by 4 until its gone. This would not add to CvA.

0- Earth lore AsG 8
60- Earth lore AsG 12
140- Earth lore AsG 16
240- Earth lore AsG 20

Maybe some sub groups in that Lore mix.

GBB
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1306
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/21/2016 09:58 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
Thank you for trying to make adjustments. Is a full spell review still going to occur?

If that's the case, I wonder what on earth was the huge rush to roll out all the nerfs. Isn't that just creating double work for Dev since you'll have to re-invent the wheel AGAIN after?
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1307
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/21/2016 10:00 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
I still don't know why it's still possible to other cast at all, given that comparable level 15 spells aren't (215, 115). Please make it self-cast and balance from there (no cooldown by 2x EMC).
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1308
| author = PC1234
| date = on 01/21/2016 10:22 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|''>>provides critical padding equal to EL:E ranks on seed 6.''
|-
|
|-
|I have to admit, that would certainly drive up the instance of EL:E wizard lore training. The logic for selecting seed 6?
|}

Seed 6 puts you at HCP (10 points) at just over 1x (105 ranks). That's what I consider a fair trade off. You would also be sacrificing options by making this choice.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1309
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/21/2016 10:24 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
I also have to agree a flare is not the answer if this is truly meant to be a viable alternative to training more for 535 benefits. 535 is always on, and if you have to rely on a flare, well Murphy's Law says that whenever you really need it, it won't happen.

It would need to be an always on benefit. Knocking the wizard into another room is also not the answer, as I hate mechanics like that. Sigil of Escape, Ithzir armor flares, and similar mechanics are all last resorts but I dislike those because you should be attempting to disable the room and kill as quickly as possible as a pure, not trying to run away. That says nothing about both your offensive and defensive capabilities.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1310
| author = EARTHDIVER
| date = on 01/21/2016 10:33 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
Heavily crit padded brigandine saved me many times in OTF and the Rift, but I don't think padding on the lower armor classes, especially heavily crit padded full leather, is going to provide you much chance at all of surviving a stunned-on-the-ground-in-offensive scenario. Being knocked out of the room can, so it's why I suggested it. :D
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1311
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/21/2016 10:36 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
''>Heavily crit padded brigandine saved me many times in OTF and the Rift, but I don't think padding on the lower armor classes, especially heavily crit padded full leather, is going to provide you much chance at all of surviving a stunned-on-the-ground-in-offensive scenario. Being knocked out of the room can, so it's why I suggested it. :D ''

I agree padding on full leather is unlikely to make a material difference, but being knocked out of the room has several other drawbacks, such as the possibility of landing in a room even more dangerous than the original situation or being in a situation where you were disarmed in the first room and losing something of value altogether. It's risky on many levels and doesn't address the real issues. It's another band-aid, not a solution.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1312
| author = ROLFARD
| date = on 01/21/2016 10:36 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
My non wizard is terrified at too many boosts as hunting grimswarm becomes more and more dangerous.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1313
| author = DOUG
| date = on 01/21/2016 10:37 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
''>>HCP (10 points) at just over 1x (105 ranks). ''

Yep, thanks. I noticed that intersection and was curious.

I'm not sure it would be a well received idea to permanently grant HCP to the wizard. This isn't quite the same as GoS (with its restrictions), and unfortunately the way the game is designed this would ultimately be equivalent to a permanent 'item' that no other profession can match - and is generally considered a 'restricted' or 'rare' item.

How would we feel about seed 8 and capping it at the equivalent of 'somewhat [5 - 6 points of padding]'? And perhaps making it a bit less of duration. Not 1 minute (gads I hate that), but fails after protecting from X number of strikes, or some such, to be similar to stamina consumption with GoS.

Doug
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1315
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/21/2016 10:40 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>My non wizard is terrified at too many boosts as hunting grimswarm becomes more and more dangerous. ''

This is why lore-based flares of any kind are really not the solution for anyone, be it sorcerers for 716 or wizards for 520. It's MUCH more likely to backfire on you as a hunter than actually save you. When you need it, it won't work for you, but you can guarantee yourself some nasty injuries, if not death, from attacking a sorcerer or mage grimswarm.

This is why the ELR (and parts of HSN) seemed nice in theory but were actually a bunch of secret creature buffs. It was a wash because while the player characters now have a chance of some flares from time to time, many things they hunt are now significantly more dangerous, which ends up a net benefit for the creatures.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1316
| author = OBSERVER
| date = on 01/21/2016 10:41 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
What makes the most sense for me is for Stone Skin to flat out take the damage for you until it shatters. It doesn't take a percentage, it takes all the damage it can until it breaks and you start getting hit. The more Earth lore you have, the more damage the Stone Skin will soak up before breaking.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1317
| author = DOUG
| date = on 01/21/2016 10:42 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
''>>you should be attempting to disable the room and kill as quickly as possible as a pure''

. . .

Agree with all the points but this one. There's an upper bound to this (2, 3 creatures maybe)? that isn't expressed. I didn't recently and still don't support scenarios where a wizard 5 against 1 should expect to 'prevail' with anything other than extreme luck.

And in those cases, I believe the wizard (especially solo) should be running away - so if luck happens in reverse, that 'retreat tactic' item should be all the more welcome. But - flare is not the answer, absolutely not.

Doug
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1318
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/21/2016 10:42 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
''>How would we feel about seed 8 and capping it at the equivalent of 'somewhat [5 - 6 points of padding]'? And perhaps making it a bit less of duration. Not 1 minute (gads I hate that), but fails after protecting from X number of strikes, or some such, to be similar to stamina consumption with GoS.''

The problem with any padding as a solution is that unless it stacks with existing armor, it's a nerf from what we have now, at the post-cap level, which is where things really get dangerous in swarms. Nor is it likely to address the issues involved with post-cap, maneuvered based dangers.
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1319
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 01/21/2016 10:45 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
Mostly off topic question, but has anyone tried messing around with Iron Skin scrolls? I'm curious what would be possible with that, assuming it bases it off your AS ranks and not Mental Lore: Transformation like with monks.

~ Methais
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1320
| author = DRUMPEL
| date = on 01/21/2016 10:47 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
''>I think that's a fair assessment. What changes would you proposal to make Stone Skin better, specifically for Elemental Lore, Earth trained wizards (to lessen the overall impact for all wizards and to offer a competitive defense alternative to EL:A's Haste)?''
''>GameMaster Estild''

For someone that doesn't wish to dump ranks into Air Lore, I think a fair trade off would be an AsG bump for heavy earth lore and MjE skill when using Stone Skin.

Let's say you have two wizards, both are the same level 85 and both have spent TPs for 125 ranks in Lores. Both have 60 MjE spell ranks.
* Wizard 1 plays as an Air Mage and they've dumped 125 ranks into Air.
* Wizard 2 plays as an Earth mage and they've dumped 125 ranks into Earth Lore.

Both wizards are out hunting and they get hit with a maneuver, it knocks them down for a 10 second RT (before haste).
Wizard 1's RT is reduced to 4 seconds - he's back up before the creature has time to get off their next attack and Wizard 1 can attack/attempt a disable type spell.
Wizard 2's RT is reduced to 6 seconds - he's still prone while the creature unleashes hell upon him.

Another scenario:
Wizards take a 12 second RT (before haste) from ewave, both just happened to get caught stance dancing are knocked down in offensive.
Wizard 1's RT is reduced to 5 seconds. Wizard has a good chance to stance defensive or get a disabling spell off before the creature attacks again. With a bit of luck on Wizard 1's side, he survived to keep hunting.
Wizard 2's RT is reduced to 8 seconds. Wizard is stuck in offensive to get the crap kicked out of him unless he just happens to luckily evade/block the attack by some amazing chance. Most likely, Wizard 2 just died.

If someone wishes to be fast in hopes to avoid attacks (best method of staying alive), all the better for them. For someone that isn't heavily trained in Air Lore, Stone skin should improve your AsG.

I know I posted a suggestion for 520 (at least I thought I did) some time back, but I can't find it. I don't recall the exact suggestion and numbers I used so I'm going to re-create something similar.

My suggestion was with MjE and EL:E ranks, an increased AsG would be applied to help with protection. The improved AsG would not hinder casting.

MjE ranks + EL:E (minimum of 25 ranks required for AsG benefit to be able to activate) gives increased AsG. If the spell does provide increased AsG for the caster, any armor underneath is not utilized if the AsG provided is greater than what you're wearing. For Example: if you have a wizard wearing HCP double leathers, the leathers and HCP would be ignored if they used 520 and were granted improved AsG over what they are currently wearing - otherwise you're having Wizards running around gaining HCP for an AsG they don't currently wear.

{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|50 ranks
| Reinforced leather
| AsG 7
|-
|75 ranks
| Double leather
| AsG 8
|-
|100 ranks
| leather breastplate
| AsG 9
|-
|150 ranks
| Cuirbouilli leather
| AsG 10
|-
|200 ranks
| Studded leather
| AsG 11
|-
|250 ranks
| Brigandine
| AsG 12
|-
|300 ranks
| Chain mail
| AsG 13
|}

If Stone skin offered some better armor protection, Wizard 2 has a better fighting chance to live through the fights since his Haste is lacking in power over a well trained air mage. The above example shows Wizard 2 has 60 MjE spell ranks and 125 EL:E ranks - 185 ranks total. He'd be sporting AsG 10 coverage along with the normal function of stone skin and how it absorbs some of the damage.

Wizard 2 goes from being a wet noodle in full leather or robes to having some kind of added protection for all his hard work in Earth Lores. Will he survive more from being prone? Sure, but it's not always a guarantee. There just needs to be some kind of offset for those that are not training in Air Lore to keep haste like it was under the old spell.

Right now my wizard has lost his ability to quickly recover and some much improved armor protection that doesn't hinder his casting ability would be greatly appreciated. I don't see stone skin as offering crit padding, but improved AsG would be awesome.

Thanks for listening.

-Drumpel
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1321
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/21/2016 10:54 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
The AsG suggestion has merit, but I'm still not sure it would be enough to make a material difference. Those thresholds are also too high, and what happens if you don't have quite enough lore for even the first bump up?

As it stands now, splitting 4 ways for lores makes every post-cap wizard mediocre on some level, instead of better in one. To be decent at anything, you have to make significant sacrifices in many other areas (defensive, utility, or offensive), which isn't a choice spiritualists have.

With the SLR, nearly all of the changes were bonuses from the base level of functionality, so even if one could not train much in one area, they were still okay. If they trained more in one particular, they became exceptionally good at those spells.

This isn't the case with the ELR. You have to train a lot, in nearly every lore, to be even decent. This leads to an all around character that is mediocre on every front, instead of being a true specialist in one. Unless wizards can 3x lores with the seed setup that exists now, the post-cap wizard will still have many issues.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1322
| author = DRUMPEL
| date = on 01/21/2016 10:55 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
''>And in those cases, I believe the wizard (especially solo) should be running away - so if luck happens in reverse, that 'retreat tactic' item should be all the more welcome. But - flare is not the answer, absolutely not.''
''>Doug''

I agree. If I happen to encounter a minotuar warrior and a magus - usually not an issue. Ewave tends to knock them down on a constant basis. But if you add a second Magus to the mix and ewave doesn't pin them all...I'm running out of there and fast. I don't need to wait on them to prep spells in hopes that my second attempt to ewave or call wind will put them down.

I run and I do my best to avoid them for about 30 seconds (especially if one prepped a spell). Over 2 creatures in the room and it starts to become a problem trying to juggle them all safely. Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't. I'd rather much run and live, instead of taking my chance I might win.

-Drumpel
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1323
| author = PC1234
| date = on 01/21/2016 11:00 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|''>>HCP (10 points) at just over 1x (105 ranks). ''
|-
|
|-
|Yep, thanks. I noticed that intersection and was curious.
|-
|
|-
|I'm not sure it would be a well received idea to permanently grant HCP to the wizard. This isn't quite the same as GoS (with its restrictions), and unfortunately the way the game is designed this would ultimately be equivalent to a permanent 'item' that no other profession can match - and is generally considered a 'restricted' or 'rare' item.
|-
|Doug
|}

Oh, I don't think they'll ever do it. But he asked for a better replacement and I gave him one.

{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|How would we feel about seed 8 and capping it at the equivalent of 'somewhat [5 - 6 points of padding]'? And perhaps making it a bit less of duration. Not 1 minute (gads I hate that), but fails after protecting from X number of strikes, or some such, to be similar to stamina consumption with GoS.
|}

I would take this over the current 520. Keep the duration though! The last thing I need is another spell to juggle while hunting.

How do you feel about flip-flopping your suggestion?

Cast 520 and receive somewhat critical padding. The amount of hits that it's good for is EL:E seed 8 + a base # of hits. (5-10)
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1324
| author = DOUG
| date = on 01/21/2016 11:11 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
''>> that unless it stacks with existing armor''

Agree, didn't purposefully exclude. 5 or 6 points that stacks. Still, that's going to be a very tough case to make with the GMs.

Doug
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1325
| author = DOUG
| date = on 01/21/2016 11:19 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
''>>How do you feel about flip-flopping your suggestion?''

Absolutely game! No pride of authorship there, the key point in my view was to figure out how to live to the tenets we see demonstrated before us in spell design, including the concept of 'limit and refresh'. The how of this isn't really important to me during the initial brainstorming.

Doug
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1326
| author = DOUG
| date = on 01/21/2016 11:22 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
''>>Mostly off topic question, but has anyone tried messing around with Iron Skin scrolls? I'm curious what would be possible with that, assuming it bases it off your AS ranks and not Mental Lore: Transformation like with monks.''

Bah, looks like I ditched my response, but yes I do, and AS ranks extends duration, ML:T is still required for the various armor sub-groups. Still, it's an absolute blast for those of us with really, really good robes. ;)

Better for empaths, though.

Doug
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1327
| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 01/21/2016 11:23 AM PST
| subject = Ice Patch/Minor Water/Minor Cold questions
}}
<br>
I have a feeling this combo benefit is not taken advantage much at all, and I wanted to get the full details since it seems really nice.

When the target is rooted by Ice Patch (512) and Minor Water (903) is cast to act like Minor Cold (1709), does it still only cost 3 mana? and do full lore benefits/channeling apply?

Does anyone use this and have a few samples to share?
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1328
| author = KEITHOBAD
| date = on 01/21/2016 11:25 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
I like the ASG and crit padding suggestions.

Although building the ASG table up to 300 ranks is confusing, that's impossible to reach even with enhancives right?

So maybe something more like:

{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|50 ranks
| Reinforced leather
| AsG 7
|-
|75 ranks
| Double leather
| AsG 8
|-
|100 ranks
| leather breastplate
| AsG 9
|-
|133 ranks
| Cuirbouilli leather
| AsG 10
|-
|166 ranks
| Studded leather
| AsG 11
|-
|200 ranks
| Brigandine
| AsG 12
|-
|233 ranks
| Chain mail
| AsG 13
|}


I also like PC1234's suggestion:
''>When cast, spell 520 provides critical padding equal to EL:E ranks on seed 6.''

This would be less powerful than that ASG table but still much improved. It also wouldn't create a situation where critters are getting MUCH better results than players, unlike defensive flares.
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1329
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/21/2016 11:30 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
You do realize you can only 2x lores, right? If you need more than 1/4 of that for any benefit, you're seriously crippling yourself in all other offensive and utility areas.
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1330
| author = KEITHOBAD
| date = on 01/21/2016 11:41 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
By the same token, those who specialize should be rewarded because there is a heavy opportunity cost.
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1331
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/21/2016 11:44 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
''>By the same token, those who specialize should be rewarded because there is a heavy opportunity cost.''

We're not talking about being rewarded here, though. We're talking about where the spell doesn't work at all as proposed without at least 50 ranks of earth lore.

Even 535 offers basic functionality based on MjE ranks with no air lore, even if it doesn't work very well.

Here, you're proposing nothing or mediocrity, so it's a poor choice no matter what you do. We should aspire to more than that, given that's not at all how spiritual lores and the other pures are designed to work.
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1332
| author = DRUMPEL
| date = on 01/21/2016 11:46 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
''>The AsG suggestion has merit, but I'm still not sure it would be enough to make a material difference. Those thresholds are also too high, and what happens if you don't have quite enough lore for even the first bump up?''

My suggestion for a 520 change would be to keep the damage absorption as it currently is. It's a form of damage padding and I don't think they'll ever change the spell to provide crit padding on any level or for any amount of hits.

Having 520 improve your AsG would be nice. We can't expect them to give wizards the ability to easily toss up Stoneskin and have scale or plate armor protection - it would be too much.

My thoughts behind requiring at least 25 ranks in EL:E would be so any wizard that wants somewhat better armor protection and can dump a lot of ranks into MjE and still get some kind improved benefit from the AsG bonus - since most wizards wear full leather, some do wear double and even fewer wear leather breastplate. So an experienced wizard would easily be able to hit 25 EL:E ranks and 75-100 (even more, depending on spell training) ranks to have Stoneskin offer AsG 9, 10 or even 11. Hard leather coverage is better over soft leather. If you opt to not train in Earth Lore, you'd still get the basic function of damage absorption that stoneskin currently offers.

Maybe have AsG increases like so:

{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|50 ranks
| Reinforced leather
| AsG 7
|-
|75 ranks
| Double leather
| AsG 8
|-
|100 ranks
| leather breastplate
| AsG 9
|-
|125 ranks
| Cuirbouilli leather
| AsG 10
|-
|150 ranks
| Studded leather
| AsG 11
|-
|175 ranks
| Brigandine
| AsG 12
|-
|225 ranks
| Chain mail
| AsG 13
|-
|275 ranks
| Double chain
| AsG 14
|-
|325 ranks
| Augmented chain
| AsG 15
|-
|400 ranks
| Chain hauberk
| AsG 16
|}

Theoretically you can achieve 252 ranks EL:E (202 with training and 50 with Enhancives). You can clearly over train the crap out of MjE spells - after cap, putting upwards of 150 ranks in MjE would be doable if you're willing to sacrifice spell ranks in MnE and Wiz spells. You could hit the 400 combined ranks required for AsG 16, clearly it would be a post cap goal, but it would be doable.

The great end results should be there for those that put forth the great effort.

If the above chart was true for the spell, my wizard has 65 MjE spells and 126 EL:E = 191 combined ranks. He'd get Brig coverage while stoneskin was active. That's a whole heck of a lot better than full leather he currently wears.

-Drumpel
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1333
| author = CAPTAINREDBEARD
| date = on 01/21/2016 11:52 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
There are lots of ideas that players could offer. What needs to happen is a careful review by a team of GM's and possibly some players and make some decisions on how the wizard class is going to mesh with elemental lore's.

I, and other players I assume, thought this is what the Elemental Lore Review was all about since 2008.

Its clear now there is no master vision for wizards, and we owe it to the legacy of this game to take the time to come up with one before we gut the soul out of a class.


Rollback the changes until there is a plan.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1334
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/21/2016 11:53 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
''>Theoretically you can achieve 252 ranks EL:E (202 with training and 50 with Enhancives). You can clearly over train the crap out of MjE spells - after cap, putting upwards of 150 ranks in MjE would be doable if you're willing to sacrifice spell ranks in MnE and Wiz spells. You could hit the 400 combined ranks required for AsG 16, clearly it would be a post cap goal, but it would be doable.''

Oh, okay, if your proposal includes MjE ranks, that makes a lot more sense. I can get on board with that, though I'm still not it will achieve the effect you're going after. It's a start.

The damage reduction for the base 520 would need to be a flat damage absorbed, not a % on a chance of absorption. Currently, the spell does next to nothing to mitigate the impact of attacks that hit.

By ignoring fire, air, and water altogether though, a pure earth lore wizard would suffer tremendously on an offensive level though. Basically only a pure war mage could do this, and even then, you'd be paying a much higher price in Celerity benefits lost (for the stamina reduction).
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1335
| author = KEITHOBAD
| date = on 01/21/2016 12:01 PM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
''>We're not talking about being rewarded here, though. We're talking about where the spell doesn't work at all as proposed without at least 50 ranks of earth lore.''

I was just talking about the lore portion of 520, not making any changes to the damage-absorption part that is currently the base spell. Although I would be certainly willing to see that change as well, that wasn't what I was suggesting.


Ahh, sorry Drumpel, I missed the part where you mentioned the 500's being counted as "ranks" as well. That makes more sense.

I would be surprised to see someone with more than 140 ranks in 500s since 930 and 430 exist, but I suppose it's at least possible. You'd also be leaving a lot of AS and DS on the table by not going up to 475, but I suppose that's partly the point.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1336
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 01/21/2016 12:23 PM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
''>There are lots of ideas that players could offer. What needs to happen is a careful review by a team of GM's and possibly some players and make some decisions on how the wizard class is going to mesh with elemental lore's.''

''>I, and other players I assume, thought this is what the Elemental Lore Review was all about since 2008.''

This x1000000000000000. I still don't think anyone on staff has a clue to the amount of disappointment most wizards felt after years of build up and waiting, to the "it's finally here" moment of excitement when we were told ELR was coming to last year's HSN, seeing new daily NEWS items, typing in NEWS X YY or running to the forums as fast as we can, and then getting...high seed situational slot machines that don't actually accomplish anything of any reliable use, one after another after another. We come back the next day thinking "Maybe the good stuff just isn't here yet." and seeing more of the same.

"Well ok the ELR sucked and didn't give us anything we needed, but at least we're still good at killing stuff with what we already have, and the big 3 nerfs were put on hold until a spell review, it'll be ok." a lot of us thought at the end of HSN.

Then these nerfs hit and we're basically told to be grateful. Now we're pretty much the 2016 equivalent of GP2 sorcerers on the nerf scale, and so far our only reliable build now is war mage, the mutant build, while pure wizards everywhere abandon everything being a wizard is about in favor of swinging a big sword really fast because so far the only thing done to address the bolting issues wizards have dealt with forever requires putting our defense at a tremendous risk for "a chance" at hitting a vital area.

But hey, at least we're still good at being bots.

~ Methais
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1337
| author = DRUMPEL
| date = on 01/21/2016 12:28 PM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
I don't think they're going to change Haste any further, aside from maybe minor adjustments that won't make a big impact to most people that still have little to no Air Lore skill.

For those that don't train in Air Lore - we need a way to help better defend ourselves from the reduced RT we now suffer from. Aside from a complete spell re-write on 520, I don't see it doing anything terribly exciting, but it can certainly be much improved upon.

If a complete re-write was in order, it would be a whole new monster and the ideas I can think of would probably give me enough to write about for a few hours straight.

For right now, how it currently works. Adding crit padding - won't happen (this is based off of how NIR people tend to work from past experiences). They may be willing to adjust the spell enough to have it function kind of like Sonic Armor does - the more skill you have, the better the armor protection you get.

You don't get a boost in DS, just over all armor protection. Any DS boost would come from the normal armor you would wear - so if you had 7x robes, you'd still get the +35 DS - stoneskin would just act as a shield, for lack of a better word, to increase the AsG. Basically, you'd go from wearing 7x robes to maybe 7x Brig or 7x leather breastplate, all depending on your skill level.

I really see this as being one of the only options to help offset the loss of RT reduction from the Haste spell re-write without 520 being completely re-written. Those with high/heavy Air Lore have very little to no change to Haste. Those without Air Lore - we miss out on a lot of RT reduction that used to rely on to help us survive.

I don't see this as game breaking, we'd still be fairly squishy, but with slightly better armor. Only post cap would see the greatest benefits from the spell - hitting the scale armor levels.

-Drumpel
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1338
| author = PC1234
| date = on 01/21/2016 12:49 PM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
I'm not against the AsG change depending on the lore training required. I tried playing with the numbers and I didn't like the results I saw. It would require too much training for far too little benefit. Although that seems to be the trend looking at the ELR.

Double leather at 50 ranks? Not worth it. It would be better to just train armor use up for double leather.

I used an 18 per EL:E for each 1 AsG change. Capped at augmented chain, and it would take 72 ranks for double leather. 90 ranks for leather breastplate. The cost is not worth the protection.
I used a 5+10+15+20+25, etc progression. Double leather at 50 ranks, Cuirbouilli at 105 ranks. Again, not worth it, at least in my opinion.


I really like the base somewhat crit padding just from casting. Give 5 base hits/uses. Add 1 hit/use per seed 8 EL:E. It's a nice boost, but it's not overpowered. It's unique, in that no other spell provides this type of protection. Bards can resist elemental damage. Rangers can negate up to 95% of certain types of elemental damage. SWCP is not that great, but it's certainly better than reactive flares.

It would give warmages a nice defensive boost, it would certainly add a much needed reason to train in EL:E. It would also help to offset the unbalance of wizards being forced into offensive stance to bolt, unlike every other pure who can safely cast from guarded stance. With this type of spell, we may actually be able to channel in offensive stance from time to time, because we might be able to take a hit for once.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1339
| author = TANDL
| date = on 01/21/2016 12:56 PM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
Large chunks of the ELR were taken straight from what Naos had suggested all those years ago.

https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elemental_lore_review_archive_(saved_posts)

This isn't the first time I've re-posted this link, but I'm still unsure what all was expected (other than what we were told to expect in 2009).

Taluric
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1340
| author = PC1234
| date = on 01/21/2016 01:02 PM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|Large chunks of the ELR were taken straight from what Naos had suggested all those years ago.
|-
|
|-
|https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elemental_lore_review_archive_(saved_posts)
|-
|
|-
|This isn't the first time I've re-posted this link, but I'm still unsure what all was expected (other than what we were told to expect in 2009).
|-
|
|-
|Taluric
|}

Why was it never completed until now? I always thought it was cancelled because the feedback about it was highly negative. And still is.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1341
| author = TANDL
| date = on 01/21/2016 01:15 PM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
IIRC it just became one of those fixtures of the 'to-do' list that there wasn't enough time to get done. Nothing more or less.

Tal.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1342
| author = DOUG
| date = on 01/21/2016 01:23 PM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
Yep, I think Tal nailed it.

Doug
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1343
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 01/21/2016 01:29 PM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|Taluric
|-
|Large chunks of the ELR were taken straight from what Naos had suggested all those years ago.
|-
|https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elemental_lore_review_archive_(saved_posts)
|-
|This isn't the first time I've re-posted this link, but I'm still unsure what all was expected (other than what we were told to expect in 2009).
|}

Indeed.

GameMaster Estild
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1344
| author = DRUMPEL
| date = on 01/21/2016 01:35 PM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|I'm not against the AsG change depending on the lore training required. I tried playing with the numbers and I didn't like the results I saw. It would require too much training for far too little benefit. Although that seems to be the trend looking at the ELR.
|-
|
|-
|Double leather at 50 ranks? Not worth it. It would be better to just train armor use up for double leather.
|}

Sure, you could drop 15 ranks of armor use to train down double leather's hindrance to it's lowest level of 4/4/2 (MjE/Wiz/MnE) or you could drop 25 (min requirement) ranks in EL:E and 50 MjE spell ranks as you progress through levels to have double leather coverage from Stoneskin without spell hindrance.

Benefits from such an adjustment would come at a cost. You want better protection from it, spend the points.


{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|I really like the base somewhat crit padding just from casting. Give 5 base hits/uses. Add 1 hit/use per seed 8 EL:E. It's a nice boost, but it's not overpowered. It's unique, in that no other spell provides this type of protection. Bards can resist elemental damage. Rangers can negate up to 95% of certain types of elemental damage. SWCP is not that great, but it's certainly better than reactive flares.
|-
|
|-
|It would give warmages a nice defensive boost, it would certainly add a much needed reason to train in EL:E. It would also help to offset the unbalance of wizards being forced into offensive stance to bolt, unlike every other pure who can safely cast from guarded stance. With this type of spell, we may actually be able to channel in offensive stance from time to time, because we might be able to take a hit for once.
|}

I've always been told that having the next level up in armor is better then having crit padding in a lower armor - for example: brig is better over HCP Double (does this still hold true?). I'd much rather have a better armor base over getting crit padding for a few strikes. How good is SWCP full leather if you have stoneskin that acts as leather breastplate? (serious questions here, I don't own any crit padded items, so I don't keep up with how they function that well.)

-Drumpel
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1345
| author = PC1234
| date = on 01/21/2016 02:00 PM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|I've always been told that having the next level up in armor is better then having crit padding in a lower armor - for example: brig is better over HCP Double (does this still hold true?). I'd much rather have a better armor base over getting crit padding for a few strikes. How good is SWCP full leather if you have stoneskin that acts as leather breastplate? (serious questions here, I don't own any crit padded items, so I don't keep up with how they function that well.)
|-
|
|-
|-Drumpel
|}

I believe the crit padding is going to provide better protection against the attacks we're weakest against.

Also, as a warmage you're going to train armor up to double leather at least, with many training to leather breastplate. The AsG change would help casters only in that situation (unless it progressed on a +1 AsG per Seed whatever), while the crit padding would help everyone.

However, there is also spell 1202. It already does this. They don't like to duplicate spells, unless it's giving wizard bolts to other pures (705/306). So I don't see it happening. I don't see either happening really but since we're in fantasy land talking about what we want, I'd rather have crit padding.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1346
| author = SHAYD11
| date = on 01/21/2016 02:12 PM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
''>However, there is also spell 1202. It already does this. They don't like to duplicate spells, unless it's giving wizard bolts to other pures (705/306). So I don't see it happening. I don't see either happening really but since we're in fantasy land talking about what we want, I'd rather have crit padding.''

This, iron skin is for a square class. Do you honestly think the GMs are going to give you the same benefits? Might as well ask for redux and elemental berserk too.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1347
| author = DEANSMITH
| date = on 01/21/2016 02:28 PM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|I think that's a fair assessment. What changes would you proposal to make Stone Skin better, specifically for Elemental Lore, Earth trained wizards (to lessen the overall impact for all wizards and to offer a competitive defense alternative to EL:A's Haste)?
|}

How about using EVOKE to lower spell hinderance when wearing heavier armor?
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1348
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/21/2016 03:04 PM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
''>Why was it never completed until now? I always thought it was cancelled because the feedback about it was highly negative. And still is.''

This exactly. There was a lot wrong with it then and still is, and most people hoped it had been scrapped entirely. That all the glaring issues still exist does nothing to help matters.

It's like imposing a different way of playing on the profession because you can, except without the tools to do the job as successfully as any of the other pure classes.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1349
| author = MEKK1
| date = on 01/21/2016 07:32 PM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
''>>This, iron skin is for a square class. Do you honestly think the GMs are going to give you the same benefits? Might as well ask for redux and elemental berserk too.>>''

You mean semi but whatever. Wizards are the only pure class that goes into offensive, if only for a second. Similar benefits would be closer to the truth, but yes. Elemental redux for pures should be a thing. Squares for physical and pures get magic reduction!

Drauz
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1350
| author = OBSERVER
| date = on 01/21/2016 08:04 PM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
Monks are considered squares.
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1351
| author = MEKK1
| date = on 01/21/2016 08:10 PM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
''>>Monks are considered squares.>>''

Never would have thought that considering their spell training cost compared to other squares, but the wiki confirms.

Drauz
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1352
| author = DVDMORSE
| date = on 01/21/2016 11:32 PM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
''>Wizards are the only pure class that goes into offensive, if only for a second.''

Not true. 306, 111, 1110, and 713 all require going into offensive. And my pures use every one of them regularly.

--David

"At a moment like this, I can't help but wonder, 'What would Jimmy Buffett do?'"
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1353
| author = MEKK1
| date = on 01/21/2016 11:49 PM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
''>>Not true. 306, 111, 1110, and 713 all require going into offensive. And my pures use every one of them regularly.>>''

Are any of these the classes main offensive spells? You list the two bolt spell that the other pure classes have knowing full well thats not what they use to hunt with.

I guess I should have clarified but I thought people would get what I meant. Wizards are the only pure class whos main attack method requires them to go into offensive stance. Better?

Drauz
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1354
| author = ROLFARD
| date = on 01/22/2016 05:41 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
I use bolts more than any other attack as a sorcerer because I'm gathering ensorcell energy often in a group hunt or a warcamp. I have a demon to upkeep (send mana to) for balefire too.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1355
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 01/22/2016 06:48 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
''>> I use bolts more than any other attack as a sorcerer because I'm gathering ensorcell energy often in a group hunt or a warcamp. I have a demon to upkeep (send mana to) for balefire too.''

It sounds like you are saying that when you group hunt, you use bolts because they are less effective at killing things.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1356
| author = THORNBROOK
| date = on 01/22/2016 06:56 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
''>>It sounds like you are saying that when you group hunt, you use bolts because they are less effective at killing things.''

It's all about the splash damage and "tagging".
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1357
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 01/22/2016 07:05 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
''>It sounds like you are saying that when you group hunt, you use bolts because they are less effective at killing things.''

That's exactly what I do when group hunting.

If I don't want something to die, I use bolts.

~ Methais
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1358
| author = CALAEL
| date = on 01/22/2016 10:17 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|Methais
|-
|
|-
|That's exactly what I do when group hunting.
|-
|
|-
|If I don't want something to die, I use bolts.
|}

Just curious whether anyone has tried CHANNELing bolts? Do they seem more effective?
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1359
| author = ROLFARD
| date = on 01/22/2016 10:35 AM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
On my wizard i previously used only bolts to hunt. Now on my wizard i exclusively use bolts to hunt. At cap. No change besides an extra second between casts. I make a lot of use with zero rt tremors and stack ewave on top. I have 24 air, 4 earth , 1, 1 in lores before and after.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1360
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 01/22/2016 11:14 AM PST
| subject = Re: Ice Patch/Minor Water/Minor Cold questions
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|VANKRASN39
|-
|I have a feeling this combo benefit is not taken advantage much at all, and I wanted to get the full details since it seems really nice.
|-
|When the target is rooted by Ice Patch (512) and Minor Water (903) is cast to act like Minor Cold (1709), does it still only cost 3 mana? and do full lore benefits/channeling apply?
|-
|Does anyone use this and have a few samples to share?
|}

Yes, when Minor Water (903) is converted to Minor Cold (1709), it still only cost 3 mana. It acts as if you had simply casts 1709, meaning the same lore benefits and other casting benefits (such as channeling) still apply.

''>incant 512''
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Ice Patch...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a triton radical.
An airy mist quickly gathers around a triton radical.
The dull golden nimbus surrounding a triton radical suddenly begins to glow brightly.
CS: +522 - TD: +430 + CvA: +25 + d100: +42 == +159
Warding failed!
The mist leaves the entire lower half of a triton radical's body encased in a thick block of ice.
... 25 points of damage!
The triton radical staggers as your icy attack shatters its right leg.
It is knocked to the ground!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

''>incant 903''
Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Water...
Your spell is ready.
You channel at a triton radical.
You hurl a stream of water at a triton radical, but it freezes just before impact. Carefully, you summon the chunk of ice back to your hand...
You hurl a chunk of ice at a triton radical!
AS: +415 vs DS: +254 with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +95 = +285
... and hit for 140 points of damage!
Blow to chest frees a rib to spear a lung and heart!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
Roundtime: 3 sec.

''>incant 903''
Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Water...
Your spell is ready.
You channel at a triton radical.
You hurl a stream of water at a triton radical, but it freezes just before impact. Carefully, you summon the chunk of ice back to your hand...
You hurl a chunk of ice at a triton radical!
AS: +422 vs DS: +242 with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +53 = +262
... and hit for 100 points of damage!
Blow shatters bones in the triton radical's neck leaving its head hanging loosely!
The triton radical collapses, gurgling once with a wrathful look on its face before expiring.
The dully illuminated mantle protecting a triton radical begins to falter, then completely fades away.
A white glow rushes away from a triton radical.
The dull golden nimbus fades from around a triton radical.
The brilliant aura fades away from a triton radical.
The very powerful look leaves a triton radical.
The white light leaves a triton radical.
The guiding force leaves a triton radical.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
Roundtime: 3 sec.

GameMaster Estild
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1361
| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 01/22/2016 12:54 PM PST
| subject = Re: Ice Patch/Minor Water/Minor Cold questions
}}
<br>
looks interesting, thanks :)
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1362
| author = CAPTAINREDBEARD
| date = on 01/22/2016 12:55 PM PST
| subject = Re: Ice Patch/Minor Water/Minor Cold questions
}}
<br>
When I looked at using this spells, it is slightly better than Minor Fire damage wise, you will see the mana cost on par with minor fire at 46 ranks, but only in situations where you need 4 casts to kill something. I didn't use it because I figured I would be ahead mana wise at my level just using minor fire. In situations where you are trying to kill a tank, this would be a contender for the most mana efficient way once you start getting the seeds past 46 water lore.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1363
| author = ALSTHAR
| date = on 01/22/2016 03:17 PM PST
| subject = Re: Ice Patch/Minor Water/Minor Cold questions
}}
<br>
Don't overlook the initial 512 crit.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1365
| author = DVDMORSE
| date = on 01/22/2016 08:30 PM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
''>Are any of these the classes main offensive spells? You list the two bolt spell that the other pure classes have knowing full well thats not what they use to hunt with.''

Actually, no. I will grant that my sorcerer does not use 713 a lot. I have a cleric who is set up to use bolts and another who definitely uses 306 most when he is hunting undead. And my empath uses 1110, 111, and 118 (I forgot that one before) as his main attacks on most anything.


--David

"At a moment like this, I can't help but wonder, 'What would Jimmy Buffett do?'"
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1366
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 01/22/2016 11:56 PM PST
| subject = We need fast migration
}}
<br>
With as huge as these changes are and the effects of it disrupting most peoples' builds/playstyles tremendously, throwing one fixskills our way, while appreciated, doesn't give us enough breathing room to figure out what works well for both the character and the player.

Someone else can probably articulate it better than I, despite the obviousness of it.

I think at least a week or two of fast migration would go a long way.

Or just open the test server for a little bit, which would be the best solution by far.

Either way, one fixskills doesn't give us much wiggle room in the face of these massive changes that have us in a scramble.

~ Methais
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1367
| author = RISHIB1
| date = on 01/23/2016 02:15 PM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
yeah, as an capped empath, I largely prefer 111 and 1110. I think there's only 2 creatures right now where I default to 1115 instead. (fetish masters and fallen crusaders)

Rishi
- Player of Kembal



Speaking to Plur, Belnia says, "You're no Kembal."


[Roll result: -2112 (open d100: 82)]
A giantman thief crouches and sweeps a leg at you, but only manages to trip himself.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1368
| author = OBSERVER
| date = on 01/23/2016 07:11 PM PST
| subject = Re: We need fast migration
}}
<br>
I'd like to hear the arguments AGAINST fast migration and/or the test server. It seems like an excellent way to allow wizards to come to terms with these changes.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1369
| author = FIREPHOENIX
| date = on 01/23/2016 08:22 PM PST
| subject = Re: We need fast migration
}}
<br>
I endorse the request too. I think it would ease anxiety.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1370
| author = PCOFFEY77
| date = on 01/23/2016 08:34 PM PST
| subject = Re: We need fast migration
}}
<br>
Put me in on this request because I had saved one from last May, used it the other day, and will have to try something else again after I use our current one. How about a 10 day instant fixskill/stat migration?
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1371
| author = PCOFFEY77
| date = on 01/23/2016 09:08 PM PST
| subject = Re: Stone Skin (520) Update
}}
<br>
I'm late to the party on this one as well but would like to express my opinion for one thing that came to mind immediately and someone expressed earier - Doug I believe.

Can we change this to be more based on the attunement/lore training rather than make us force all of these different lores? Why not call it Elemental Skin and go from there.

I really don't like that I'm basically being forced out of the Lore enjoyed training in when I started all of this. And it feels like we're being spread too thin. You only give us 202 ranks to mess with and make them costly to train in while trying to train in other stuff that makes us even viable to play the game with.

WoW gives you special armors depending on what you train in. Fire/Ice/Arcane - each with special buffs of their own. A base damage resitance with special stuff added depending on lore training.

Water = Ice armor that can slow a creature during a strike and at certain trainings

Fire = Fire armor that burns back causing flare damage

Air = Lightning damage that Amplifies the next cast or stikes back with bolts of energy

Earth = Earth Armor that "hardens" after a succesful strike by an opponent to help ward the next attack based on Earth Lore.

Come on, please give us a break with these lores.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1372
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 01/24/2016 11:05 AM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
<br>
I had an opportunity to use the current incarnation of immolation (disabler version) yesterday and this morning and it seems to be working reasonably well with the current implementation. The mana cost reduction down to 15 is an added bonus.

Thanks for listening and making adjustments!

-- Robert aka Faulkil

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1373
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 01/24/2016 11:38 AM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
<br>
Doug,

I've lost track of the thread where I said I would give 912-Call Wind a try in place of 519-Immolation (disabler) vs. the temple sentries. 912 is effective in knocking them over and making my bolts more effective but the sentries still like to cast their spells, even when laying down. As a result, I don't see this as an effective replacement for 519 (assuming you are able to effectively ward the sentries to begin with). However, I have started using 912 in place of 519 for the sirens since all I was really looking for with 519 was to make them easier bolt targets anyway.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1374
| author = CAPTAINREDBEARD
| date = on 01/24/2016 11:50 AM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
<br>
How many 900/500 spell ranks do you have?
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1376
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 01/24/2016 12:12 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
<br>
Spell Lists
Major Elemental....................| 100

Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 75

Spell Lists
Wizard.............................| 101

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1377
| author = DOUG
| date = on 01/24/2016 12:25 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
<br>
''>>sentries still like to cast their spells''

Oh, yeah. Only too true, Robert. One interesting thing about sentries, though, is that they rarely (if ever?) spawn with spells prepped as I recall. This isn't true in the Scatter, for example. So I would use call wind only when a sentry genned in the same room as the Elf. If they wandered in, you just never know, and different tactics would apply. Hopefully, this didn't change overly much - the ability to be selective in tactics is something I always enjoy about the lands. It used to be 7, but now it's only 3 mana difference, so not quite as relevant as in the past, perhaps. . .

Doug
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1378
| author = KEITHOBAD
| date = on 01/24/2016 01:27 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
<br>
What kind of effectiveness are you getting with 912?

I tried switching from 410 to 912 in Stone trolls/giants and it ended up with me getting messed up a few times. My 410 works about 85% of the time (I'm uphunting the giants a bit) but 912 is closer to 70%. That's with 30 ranks in 900's and 55 ranks of air lore.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1379
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 01/24/2016 01:30 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
<br>
It seems like > 90% but let me pull the log for all the times I've cast it in the past 2 days and see how many times I got a knockdown.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1380
| author = ROLFARD
| date = on 01/24/2016 02:06 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
<br>
Sirens are quite susceptible to sleep (501) and I only have 75 ranks in that circle. Sentries were something I avoided before and continue to avoid.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1381
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 01/24/2016 02:31 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
<br>
So out of 26 casts of 912 I had 3 where I failed to knock down my intended target. I'm still using Immolation most of the time and just throwing in 912 as I think of it (old habits and all that) so I'll need a lot more casts before I can see what my true success/fail rate is.

Here's the breakdown by creature (successful 912 knockdown casts / total casts)
- Executioner (1/1)
- Combatant (2/2)
- Greater Water Elemental (1/2)
- Radical(2/2)
- Sentry (7/9) *Similar success rate to immolation casts for me with the downside that the sentry will continue to cast spells while on the ground when I use Call Wind.
- Siren (6/6)
- Water Elemental (4/4)

In some of these cases I also had knockdowns on additional targets but the above just reflects success/fail with my intended target.

-- Robert aka Faulkil

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1382
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 01/24/2016 02:48 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
<br>
''>> Sirens are quite susceptible to sleep (501) and I only have 75 ranks in that circle. Sentries were something I avoided before and continue to avoid. ''

The thing I like about immolate is you get stun plus on the ground and/or shield droppage . Call wind puts them on the ground and stances them. Sleep is just on the ground but no stance or other effect (is there an extra penalty because they are asleep???). I think its about 13 mana to cast sleep on a siren so it's really comparable to the other options on the mana side of things, especially with the drop in mana cost for immolation. I think my sleep success rate on sirens is like 100% though (I tend to sleep them and leave them when I know others are looking for them for bounties).

I used to avoid sentries and GWEs for the most part. Since I've managed to beef up my TD over the past year or two to the point where sentries now have trouble warding me I don't worry about it as much. Basically for sentries I'll throw 1-2 casts of immolation which will disable them most of the time (80% ish chance to ward on each cast) and if I fail both immolation casts or more than 1 things is in the room with it then I'll just move on (plenty more where that one came from).

I still generally avoid GWEs because they have the ability to insta-kill me with one their abilities, especially if I am encumbered. If I'm not encumbered I'll usually move on if there is nothing else in the room of interest (e.g. bounty critter) or take them down with fire ball if there is (the flare damage is often better than the initial ball cast). I need to do more experimenting with Call Wind on them since once the GWE is on the ground it's next action is almost always just to stand back up. Quite frequently I can knock them down with the fire ball or fire ball splash but not often enough that I would rely on it while encumbered.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1383
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/24/2016 04:26 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
<br>
''>Basically for sentries I'll throw 1-2 casts of immolation which will disable them most of the time (80% ish chance to ward on each cast) and if I fail both immolation casts or more than 1 things is in the room with it then I'll just move on (plenty more where that one came from).''

The problem with this strategy is if everyone employs it, it greatly increases the danger for those left hunting the area with pre-spawned and now angry creatures ready to implode on sight.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1384
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 01/24/2016 04:34 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
<br>
''>> The problem with this strategy is if everyone employs it, it greatly increases the danger for those left hunting the area with pre-spawned and now angry creatures ready to implode on sight.''

I guess I wasn't clear. I'm leaving before they have a chance to prep if I am leaving the room.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1385
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/24/2016 04:38 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
<br>
''>I guess I wasn't clear. I'm leaving before they have a chance to prep if I am leaving the room.''

How does that align with "and if I fail both immolation casts"? Not picking on you specifically, but this strategy just doesn't seem to be beneficial to anyone or address the issue of insufficiently reliable disablers.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1386
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 01/24/2016 06:51 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
<br>
''>> How does that align with "and if I fail both immolation casts"? ''

I'm not feeling picked on specifically. I'll try and clarify my hunting strategy a bit more.

I do a lot of PEERing before I enter any room, especially in the area where sentrys/GWEs frequent vs. the popular approach which is running around at supersonic speed with ;wander turned on (which is far more likely to setup an angry sentry with a prepared spell by the way).

If I see a sentry in the next room I will very often let it come to me unless it is alone.

If a sentry wanders into your room you can ''easily'' get off two casts of immolation prior to it preparing/casting a spell. If it is immolated then I can simply finish it off. If after two casts it is not immolated then I can move away prior to it casting or preparing a spell. No angry/prepped sentry in this scenario.

If the sentry is alone then I'll move in and cast immolate. Yup, there's a chance it might cast or prepare something. If immolate doesn't work and it hasn't cast prepped I may move on or I may just stick it out and see what happens. Depends on my mood/time of day/what I'm hunting/etc. It it does prep something I can dispel it and then move on or simply try and finish it off. Again, depends on my mood at the time.

''>> Not picking on you specifically, but this strategy just doesn't seem to be beneficial to anyone or address the issue of insufficiently reliable disablers.''

Sentrys are arguably the hardest thing there is in the temple (or a close 2nd to GWEs depending on your class). They are extremely hard to ward. The current disabler version of immolation works pretty much without fail on everything in the temple with the exception of sentrys (and possibly GWEs which I hardly ever cast immolation on so don't recall what they ward at). I think it is reasonable to say that a disabler spell that works very well on sirens, combatants, executioners, radicals, dissemblers, magus, and defenders nearly all of the time and works on sentrys ~80% of the time fits in the reliable disabler spell category.

If I chose to, I could improve my chances by another 10% or more by utilizing heavy quartz orbs, training my Major Elt above 100, or invest in enhancives to increase my CS. It's something I've considered but my current strategy works 'well enough' for me at present (80% x 2 means I'm not walking away most of the time anyway and I've trained such that throwing out an extra 15-30 mana here and there isn't a concern).

Alternatively, I could choose to use call wind and make judicious use of dispel against sentrys (which requires no warding to remove their prepared spell) but I don't like letting them cast their non-prepped spells at me even with my improved TD.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1387
| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 01/24/2016 07:10 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
<br>
''>especially in the area where sentrys/GWEs frequent vs. the popular approach which is running around at supersonic speed with ;wander turned on (which is far more likely to setup an angry sentry with a prepared spell by the way''

are people who are leaving/loudly complaining usually dependent on wander or even bigshot for hunting? sincere question
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1388
| author = DOUG
| date = on 01/24/2016 08:40 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
<br>
''>>are people who are leaving/loudly complaining usually dependent on wander or even bigshot for hunting? sincere question''

While we probably can't ever say for sure, I'm betting no. Most of our speedsters actually move faster than (or as fast as) a script can. Bigshot's a bit too persnickity for use in capped areas anyway. Wander, I suppose, can be tuned to be much more efficient.

OTF is the outlier perhaps, since it has a much larger area in general, and specific subzones.

Doug
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1389
| author = DOUG
| date = on 01/24/2016 08:44 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
<br>
''>> I think it is reasonable to say that a disabler spell that works very well on sirens, combatants, executioners, radicals, dissemblers, magus, and defenders nearly all of the time and works on sentrys ~80% of the time fits in the reliable disabler spell category.''

I was wondering if we would get to this point in the discussion. I'm curious what percentage threshold = reliability here, in general. Given that a capped wizard should probably be able to take out anything other than sentries (103) and elementals (105) without much difficulty, is that 80% to 90% threshold reasonable?

I suspect some would put reliable only at 100% - and I can understand that. But I won't agree with it, risk is a necessary evil.

Doug
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1390
| author = DESTINY14
| date = on 01/24/2016 11:15 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
<br>
''>I suspect some would put reliable only at 100% - and I can understand that. But I won't agree with it, risk is a necessary evil.''

And I won't agree with that, when 100% reliable is achievable for post-cap pures of every other class.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1391
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 01/25/2016 06:37 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
It seems the 0 RT proc is being a big liarface.


You are now in an offensive stance.
''>Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Fire...''
Your spell is ready.
Seeing an opportunity, you accelerate time and empower your spell!
You channel at a huge air elemental.
You hurl a stream of fire at a huge air elemental!
AS: +513 vs DS: +366 with AvD: +31 + d100 roll: +7 = +185
... and hit for 56 points of damage!
Cast Roundtime 1 Second.
Roundtime: 0 sec.
''>''
Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.
''>stance offensive''
incant 906
stance defensive
You are now in an offensive stance.
>Wait 1 sec.


~ Methais
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1392
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 01/25/2016 07:18 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|Methais
|-
|It seems the 0 RT proc is being a big liarface.
|-
|
|-
|You are now in an offensive stance.
|-
|''>Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Fire...''
|-
|Your spell is ready.
|-
|Seeing an opportunity, you accelerate time and empower your spell!
|-
|You channel at a huge air elemental.
|-
|You hurl a stream of fire at a huge air elemental!
|-
| AS: +513 vs DS: +366 with AvD: +31 + d100 roll: +7 = +185
|-
| ... and hit for 56 points of damage!
|-
|Cast Roundtime 1 Second.
|-
| Roundtime: 0 sec.
|-
|''>''
|-
|Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.
|-
|''>stance offensive''
|-
|incant 906
|-
|stance defensive
|-
|You are now in an offensive stance.
|-
| >Wait 1 sec.
|}

The "Wait 1 sec." is due to the castRT (when you try to cast for the second time). Your log shows you going to stance guarded immediately after casting, then back to stance offensive. You can't change stances while in roundtime.

GameMaster Estild
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1393
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 01/25/2016 08:48 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!
}}
<br>
''>The "Wait 1 sec." is due to the castRT (when you try to cast for the second time). Your log shows you going to stance guarded immediately after casting, then back to stance offensive. You can't change stances while in roundtime.''

Oh I see...I was thinking this was the old proc, not the channel proc.

I blame Monday. And mornings. And Obama. And Bush.

~ Methais
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1394
| author = DOUG
| date = on 01/25/2016 09:24 AM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
<br>
''>>And I won't agree with that, when 100% reliable is achievable for post-cap pures of every other class.''

I truly regret that it is taking me so long to get my head around this - it feels more complicated than 'everyone but us can do it alla time'. So I'm struggling.

I am pretty sure Robert (in this case) could too. 'Achievable' doesn't equal 'accomplished'. Still not sure if it will hold true everywhere, but pretty sure here it does.

Are we to start comparing training plans, and training points spent next in our bid for push-button simplicity (Doug's term for 100% reliable)? Then perhaps debate when those points would be spent ''post-cap, I might add'', to accomplish this achievement?

I hope not. Leads to nothing but bad feelings in my experience.

Just to go back to the top, we're talking about:

1) The rapid killing power of the wizard (one shot one kill) as a viable means of crowd control?
2) The rapid killing power of other professions (one shot one kill) as a viable means of crowd control?
3) Not really tied to crowd control at all, but otherwise, yes - (one shot one kill)?
4) Taquito? (For when you're not up to the whole enchilada.)
Doug
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1395
| author = RISHIB1
| date = on 01/25/2016 10:20 AM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
<br>
Which 100% reliable disabler do you think Empaths have? 1108 doesn't work on undead, and sometimes it just shoots the creature to the next room. 214 costs too much mana to use at cap.

Rishi
- Player of Kembal



Speaking to Plur, Belnia says, "You're no Kembal."


[Roll result: -2112 (open d100: 82)]
A giantman thief crouches and sweeps a leg at you, but only manages to trip himself.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1396
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 01/25/2016 10:48 AM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
<br>
''>Which 100% reliable disabler do you think Empaths have? 1108 doesn't work on undead, and sometimes it just shoots the creature to the next room. 214 costs too much mana to use at cap. ''

I'm assuming they're talking about 135.


~ Methais
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1397
| author = OBSERVER
| date = on 01/25/2016 10:50 AM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
<br>
I haven't played with it much, but I think people have stated that Searing Light (135) has a 100% disable rate if you can ward the target. With proper training, outside spells, and enhancives, the argument is that you can attain that 100% success rate.

https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Searing_Light_(135)


It would be nice to know the exact formula used for disablers like Elemental Wave, Call Wind, Tremors, etc. I don't think that being able to see all the factors involved in casting a CS spell should be an inherent advantage over a maneuver based spell. Obfuscation should not be used as a balancing tactic. If wizards could efficiently maximize their training in order to achieve 100% success rates with these spells, assuming it is already possible with maneuver-based disablers, it shouldn't be seen as any more unbalancing than it is to do so with CS-based disablers.
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1398
| author = DRUMPEL
| date = on 01/25/2016 01:45 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
<br>
''>It would be nice to know the exact formula used for disablers like Elemental Wave, Call Wind, Tremors, etc. I don't think that being able to see all the factors involved in casting a CS spell should be an inherent advantage over a maneuver based spell. Obfuscation should not be used as a balancing tactic. If wizards could efficiently maximize their training in order to achieve 100% success rates with these spells, assuming it is already possible with maneuver-based disablers, it shouldn't be seen as any more unbalancing than it is to do so with CS-based disablers.''

Call Wind, ewave and such - they're pretty much level based and also take into account your spell ranks in that circle.


Call Wind:
This spell is strongly influenced by level and the number of Wizard Base spell ranks known. The change in

Ewave:
The primary success factor of this spell is a level comparison of the caster versus its targets. Minor Elemental ranks are also factored in

Tremors:
I see no mention on the gswiki about spell strength, but I'd venture to guess it falls in line with the others above - level and spell ranks.

That's about all we're given and I don't think they'll give out the exact formula. We can keep asking....

-Drumpel
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1399
| author = RISHIB1
| date = on 01/25/2016 02:00 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
<br>
''>I haven't played with it much, but I think people have stated that Searing Light (135) has a 100% disable rate if you can ward the target. With proper training, outside spells, and enhancives, the argument is that you can attain that 100% success rate. - Observer''

I like 135, but it being in our minor circle means that I'm not going to fully train to maximize its CS until way post-cap. So warding targets isn't a given. Outside spells are going to vary based on hunting ground (i.e. not going to work in the Rift).

But this is crazy...in terms of mass disablers, you guys are comparing a 35th level spell to 10th and 12th level spells. I would expect a 35th level spell to do better. My question is, how does 435 work as a mass disabler? Does it frequently fail to knock down targets?

Rishi
- Player of Kembal



Speaking to Plur, Belnia says, "You're no Kembal."


[Roll result: -2112 (open d100: 82)]
A giantman thief crouches and sweeps a leg at you, but only manages to trip himself.
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1400
| author = ALSTHAR
| date = on 01/25/2016 02:24 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
<br>
It does also do damage, typically not a lot but some as compared none for most other disabling spells. And while it doesn't work against creatures with no eyes (this is a very, very small subset), it does work on a lot of creatures typically immune to disabling effects. The second point being far more important in explaining the level difference.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1401
| author = DOUG
| date = on 01/25/2016 02:32 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
<br>
''>>But this is crazy...in terms of mass disablers, you guys are comparing a 35th level spell to 10th and 12th level spells. I would expect a 35th level spell to do better. My question is, how does 435 work as a mass disabler? Does it frequently fail to knock down targets?''

Crazy? Crazy, you say?!

Well, yeah, kinda. In fact, I'm really struggling with this 'revelation'. I don't profess to be the end-all, be-all empath player, but I don't know of very many capped hunting empaths that would purposefully maximize the CS potential of the minor sphere over the empathic sphere. Maybe I am crazy, but I don't see that happening. Ever. Enhanced or not.

To answer your question directly, though, Rishi - 435 and 135 is an apt comparison, with the only difference seeming to be the elemental SMR against the more classic spiritual CS. So it can be hard to do an accurate comparison. In my experience, 435 is one of the last spells I would pull out of the Elf's hat. Way too much potential for 3F (friendly fire fatality), in my view.

If there were a 'design flaw' worthy of the name and ensuing discussion, I'd have to say it's the potential for up to +45 (although more realistically probably +25 to +30) CS added by Spirit Slayer. Wizards don't have a corresponding SMR-based increase spell that could affect their Stomp (909) or Waves (410 / 435 / 912?). I'm not sure that's a significant gap, mind you. Most of the wizard's 'improvement spell' types tend to deal with AS, crit or temporal factors. It's a trade-off.

The bigger complication as pointed out by Observer is the net effect of not seeing, being able to gauge improvement to, and plotting to successfully influence (maximize) the end result. While I'm not necessarily in support of exposing all game information, the knock-on effect is when the wizard tries, fails, ''and has no feedback on which to base further decisions'' the spell likely will not be attempted again and is automatically no where's near as effective as any other spell the tabulated results of which can be seen.

That part makes sense - if I can't see how to manipulate it, the spell isn't as reliable - that's where I'm thinking the 135 reliability argument is going to land, ultimately.

Doug
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1402
| author = OBSERVER
| date = on 01/25/2016 02:43 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
<br>
''>That's about all we're given and I don't think they'll give out the exact formula. We can keep asking. -Drumpel''

That's the plan. They've slowly gotten better about letting us know how to properly train our characters. Here's hoping that trend continues.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1403
| author = OBSERVER
| date = on 01/25/2016 02:49 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
<br>
It really boils down to enhancements as well. You cannot enhance your skill with maneuver-based spells. At least not Wizard ones, once you hit cap. It seems like Call Wind would be better served to lose the %chance at cyclones and instead have increased effectiveness the more air lore you possess.

"Training in Elemental Lore, Water will cause targets to have a reduced maneuver defense based on a linear formula involving skill bonus. The specifics are unknown, but 90 skill (20 ranks) is enough to overcome the defensive bonus provided by the spell Empathic Focus (1109) and continued skill increases further improve this bonus without diminishing returns."

That's for E-wave.

Why not set something similar up for Call Wind, but instead of reducing maneuver defense, it begins to negate the level difference between you and the caster?
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1404
| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 01/25/2016 06:52 PM PST
| subject = Hand of Tonis (505)
}}
<br>
If channel affects the bolt, should channel affect the warding version? I don't hear much about the CS version being used as a disabler. What do people think of having an open cast/mass version of it?
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1405
| author = MEKK1
| date = on 01/25/2016 07:25 PM PST
| subject = Re: Hand of Tonis (505)
}}
<br>
Thats a low cost for a mass spell that completely disables.

Drauz
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1406
| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 01/25/2016 07:33 PM PST
| subject = Re: Hand of Tonis (505)
}}
<br>
''>Thats a low cost for a mass spell that completely disables.''

703 can completely block the whole room from casting for 15 seconds with a TD pushdown. I don't think it's a big stretch if lore training is tied in.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1407
| author = DRUMPEL
| date = on 01/25/2016 07:39 PM PST
| subject = 520 - Elemental Stone Skin (suggestion - sorry, long post)
}}
<br>
I'm a firm believer that if you choose to ATTUNE to an element, you should be rewarded with some benefits to your spells (not just a certain handful of spells, but all spells across the Wizard spell circles). Anyone that chooses to not ATTUNE to an element will still have a solid spell to use for utility or combat, they just loose out on some of the flare that an ATTUNED wizard would get.

520 Elemental Stone Skin

Self cast
Stackable
1200 second duration

Manipulating the elemental forces within his/her body, the caster forms a layer of hard elemental stone skin that shifts with his/her movements. This self-cast spell provides additional protection from physical attacks in the form of hitpoint damage absorption, mimics harder armor with no spell hinderance and provides elemental protection for your ATTUNED element.

Shatter Point
The shatter point is a measure of the total hit point damage absorbed before the stone skin is completely destroyed. The stone skin will not fail until all hit points have been absorbed, the spell is removed or the caster has died. The factors that determine the shatter point are Major Elemental spells (1 point per rank) + ATTUNED lore (1 point per ranks) + (all other lore ranks/2). If you're not ATTUNED to an elemental lore, you will receive a reduced benefit of all EL ranks known / 2. ATTUNED to lightning will take the combination of Air & Watre lore. ATTUNED to Air gives a reduced benefit due to how Haste provides great RT reduction for heavy air lore training.

{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|ATTUNED Lore
|-
|Shatter Point = MjE ranks + ATTUNED Elemental Lore ranks known + ((all unATTUNED lore ranks)/2)
|-
|
|-
|ATTUNED Lightning
|-
|Shatter Point = MjE ranks + (Air + Water lore ranks) + ((Earth + Fire lore ranks)/2)
|-
|
|-
|ATTUNED Air
|-
|Shatter Point = MjE ranks + (Air lore /1.5) + (all other EL ranks/2)
|-
|
|-
|No ATTUNED Lore
|-
|Shatter Point = MjE ranks + trunc(all lore ranks / 2)
|}

Examples:
ATTUNED to Water. MjE ranks = 50, EL:W ranks = 60, all other EL ranks = 20
Damage absorbed before shattering = 120 points (50 + 60 + (20/2))

ATTUNED to Lightning. MjE ranks = 50, EL:W = 30, EL:A = 30, all other EL ranks = 20
Damaged absorbed before shattering = 120 points (50 + (30 + 30) + (20/2))

ATTUNED to Air. MjE ranks = 50 points, EL:A = 60, all other EL = 20
Damaged absorbed before shattering = 100 (50 + ((60/1.5)+(20/2))

A wizard not attuned to a lore. MjE ranks = 50, total EL ranks = 80
Damage absorbed before shattering = 90 points (50 + (80/2))


Elemental Resistance
Your ATTUNED element will provide protection against like elements used against you. For instance, if you're ATTUNED to Fire, you'll
be able to build up resistance towards fire based attacks. If you do not ATTUNE to an element, you gain no elemental resistance. Seed
3 summation based on your EL ranks for your ATTUNED element gains damage reduction against the same element.

An example. You're ATTUNED to fire. You have put 60 ranks in EL:F and 40 ranks into EL:A. You gain an 8% damage reduction from fire
attacks.

{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|Elemental Resistance
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|-
|ATTUNED Lore ranks
| 3
| 7
| 12
| 18
| 25
| 33
| 42
| 52
| 63
| 75
| 88
| 102
| 117
| 133
| 150
| 168
| 187
| 207
| 228
| 250
|-
|
| 1%
| 2%
| 3%
| 4%
| 5%
| 6%
| 7%
| 8%
| 9%
| 10%
| 11%
| 12%
| 13%
| 14%
| 15%
| 16%
| 17%
| 18%
| 19%
| 20%
|}


Armor Protection
Being ATTUNED to an element provides a boost to your Elemental Skin armor level and actual ARMOR ranks can provide an added boost as well (ARMOR ranks * 2 : capped at 25 ranks). The Elemental Stone Skill mimics harder armor while not incuring any spell hinderance. Any current armor worn, only the enchantment level will carry through the Elemental Skin. Also, if your current armor AsG level is lower than what you are fully trained for, if the AsG provided through Elemental Skin is greater, the worn armor and special properties are nullified as long as the spell is active. ATTUNED to Air lore gives a reduced benefit since heavy Air Lore gives Haste a greater RT reduction.

Example:
You are fully traned for 6x double leather (AsG 8) and you have HCP protection on it. If your Elemental Stone Skin gives you AsG 9
(leather breastplate) or higher, your HCP from your double leather doesn't carry through. Only the 6x enchantment will still be active. The one benefit you have is if your stone skin shatters, you'll then have your HCP armor to fall back on.

{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|ATTUNED Lore Armor Level
|-
|MjE ranks + ATTUNED Lore Ranks + (other Lore Ranks/2) + (ARMOR ranks * 2)
|-
|
|-
|ATTUNED Air Armor Level
|-
|MjE ranks + (Air Lore ranks / 1.5) + (other Lore Ranks/2) + (ARMOR ranks * 2)
|-
|
|-
|No ATTUNED Lore Armor* Level
|-
|MjE ranks + (All Lore Ranks * .6) + (ARMOR ranks * 2)
|}

Armor Protection Level (AsG)
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|Total Ranks
| Armor Type
| AsG
|-
|50 ranks
| Reinforced leather
| AsG 7
|-
|75 ranks
| Double leather
| AsG 8
|-
|100 ranks
| Leather breastplate
| AsG 9
|-
|125 ranks
| Cuirbouilli leather
| AsG 10
|-
|150 ranks
| Studded leather
| AsG 11
|-
|175 ranks
| Brigandine
| AsG 12
|-
|225 ranks
| Chain mail
| AsG 13
|-
|275 ranks
| Double chain
| AsG 14
|-
|325 ranks
| Augmented chain
| AsG 15
|-
|400 ranks
| Chain hauberk
| AsG 16
|}

Examples:

No ATTUNED Lore
MjE ranks = 60, total EL ranks = 100, ARMOR ranks = 4
128 ranks for AsG 10 - Cuirbouilli Leather (60 +(100 * .6) + (4 *2))

ATTUNED to Earth Lore
MjE ranks = 60, EL:E = 80, all other EL = 20, ARMOR ranks = 4
158 ranks for AsG 11 - Studed Leather (60 + 80 + (20/2) + (4 * 2))

ATTUNED to Air Lore
MjE ranks = 60, EL:A = 80, all other EL = 20, ARMOR ranks = 4
131 ranks for AsG 10 - Cuirbouilli Leather (60 +((80/1.5)+(20/2)) + (4*2)

Something like this - I don't see it as over powering on any level. The trade off of the spell will come into play a lot more past level 50, but still be somewhat useful around level 25 if you have at least 25 MjE spells and 1x in lores towards your ATTUNED element - you'll earn the benefit of having Reinforced Leather armor protection without the spell hindrance normal Reinforced Leather would give. Not to mention you'd receive 5% damage reduction against your ATTUNED element.

Those ATTUNED to air lore take a little bit of a reduced return against the other ATTUNED lores simply because a well trained mage in air lore gets a greatly increased RT reduction from Haste. Elemental Stone Skin will still be a viable spell for non-ATTUNED and air ATTUNED mages, they just don't get as great of a benefit.

Clearly, this is just an idea, but this would be how I'd like to see lores benefit spells and how being ATTUNED to an element will give you special benefits as well.

-Drumpel
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1408
| author = RISHIB1
| date = on 01/25/2016 07:46 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
<br>
''>Doug's post''

I have to admit, the idea of 240 + 135 never crossed my mind until just now. Of course, to try it, I'd blow 17.5% of my mana in one shot, so it'd have to be a pretty bad swarm to make it worth the effort. (and in those cases, it'd just be safer to run most of the time)

135 isn't player friendly either though (only group friendly, just like 435), so the same risks apply that you noted, Doug.

But if this whole thing about reliability is really about information provided, then I don't know what to say. I do think comparisons to other pure professions aren't serving anyone's cause here without data backing them up, because the assumptions being made aren't grounded in reality, and thus the GMs aren't being persuaded. (the 1115/519/317 comparison worked because of data)

Rishi
- Player of Kembal



Speaking to Plur, Belnia says, "You're no Kembal."


[Roll result: -2112 (open d100: 82)]
A giantman thief crouches and sweeps a leg at you, but only manages to trip himself.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1409
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 01/25/2016 07:53 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|Rishi, Player of Kembal
|-
|I have to admit, the idea of 240 + 135 never crossed my mind until just now.
|}

Spirit Slayer (240) doesn't work with mass effect spells.

GameMaster Estild
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1410
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 01/25/2016 07:54 PM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
<br>
''>> >>And I won't agree with that, when 100% reliable is achievable for post-cap pures of every other class.''

''>> I truly regret that it is taking me so long to get my head around this - it feels more complicated than 'everyone but us can do it alla time'. So I'm struggling.''

''>> I am pretty sure Robert (in this case) could too. 'Achievable' doesn't equal 'accomplished'. Still not sure if it will hold true everywhere, but pretty sure here it does.''

I already laid out how I could achieve ~100% success on sentrys. No doubt if I presently had a 100% success rate we'd be talking about how it didn't really count due to my post cap training, enhancives, etc.

I don't use enhancives (I do use outside spells but none of them boost my warding), I don't have a mutant training plan, I can still train another 27 or so ranks in my spell lists, and I don't bother to use heavy quartz orbs but I still have an 80% warding margin on the hardest thing in there. I do have the +10 benefit to my CS due to being a dark elf which using a heavy quartz orb would offset for non-dark elves.

If you don't think 80% is 'reasonable' for disabling the toughest thing in there (for my hunting area) then train differently than I have, use enhancives, or use a different strategy (one of which I laid out in an earlier post).

There are plenty of things to complain about with the ELR and all of the wizard changes but I think the disabler version of Immolation is in a good place now.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul."
Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 1411
| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 01/25/2016 08:04 PM PST
| subject = Re: Hand of Tonis (505)
}}
<br>
also they can just put an additional mana cost on it.
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<br>
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<br>
Line 31,939: Line 44,224:


Same. I think 504 with lore benefits swapped to water lore would be my choice, actually.
Same. I think 504 with lore benefits swapped to water lore would be my choice, actually.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2194
| author = PFLATS
| date = on 10/04/2016 06:03 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor
}}
<br>
If I've read it correctly, it increases your effective stance by a base of 15%. In other words, it effectively decreases your parry by 15%.

Full offensive is 0% parry. Guarded is 80% parry. Guarded + fire lore = 65% parry = 5% short of neutral (60% parry).

210 ranks fire lore will give you the benefits of an almost-full-offensive 5% stance from a forward 40% stance (15 base + 20 seed 1).
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Line 32,129: Line 44,398:


Doug
Doug
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2206
| author = KRAKII
| date = on 10/05/2016 01:29 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Time Stop (550)
}}
<br>
I just envision the weedy little nerd getting caught by the bully. Sure, I've stopped time, but pry as I might, I can't lever his grip open.
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Line 32,390: Line 44,647:


The RT seems to be there to enforce the immobilization, not the other way around, so I'd assume that this is the desired end result.
The RT seems to be there to enforce the immobilization, not the other way around, so I'd assume that this is the desired end result.
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2219
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 10/10/2016 11:02 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Time Stop (550)
}}
<br>
Can we have either the cast RT removed from e-wave with 550, or let us toggle whether STOP TIME auto casts it or not? Sometimes casting e-wave can cause more problems than without, i.e. you use STOP TIME to get out of a jam and try to fog out right after before you get smacked again, but you can't because you're in cast RT for 3 seconds. This is even more fun when you're in a room full of stuff that ewave has no effect on at all.

Simply leaving the room isn't always an option either depending on your injuries and what's in the surrounding rooms, which you're not gonna exactly have time to PEER to check first either.

~ Methais
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2220
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 10/10/2016 11:08 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Time Stop (550)
}}
<br>
''>let us toggle whether STOP TIME auto casts it or not?''

We can already do this.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2221
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 10/10/2016 11:09 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Time Stop (550)
}}
<br>
I guess I just suck at Gemstone.

What's the verb for this?

~ Methais
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2222
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 10/10/2016 11:13 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Time Stop (550)
}}
<br>
STOP TIME NOWAVE
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2223
| author = PFLATS
| date = on 10/12/2016 08:41 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Time Stop (550)
}}
<br>
''>I think we're miscommunicating but my comment was about swapping to a water lore requirement.''

The original discussion was replacing ewave with flat RT as a lore benefit. The ewave is triggered by water lore. I was saying have water lore trigger a 504-like effect instead of e-wave, but replace slow's air lore requirements in this one specific instance with water lore because it's the 550 water lore bonus. That's all.
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2224
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 10/12/2016 09:03 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Time Stop (550)
}}
<br>
''>The ewave is triggered by water lore. I was saying have water lore trigger a 504-like effect instead of e-wave, but replace slow's air lore requirements in this one specific instance with water lore because it's the 550 water lore bonus. That's all.''

The WATER wave (410) is triggered by water lore. The fire wave (435 without RT) is triggered by fire lore. Both water + fire lore = full 435. Regardless, it's useless to assume that wizards have 50 ranks of water lore, and I wouldn't want the entire fire lore effect replaced by a water lore requirement either.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2225
| author = KRAKII
| date = on 10/13/2016 07:00 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Time Stop (550)
}}
<br>
He didn't say anything about the full-Major Wave (both water + fire) effect at all.

He said,
1) take away the Minor Wave/410 effect (since it's largely useless, due to immunities);
2) replace it with a Slow/504-like effect;
*) (Note that Slow/504 ''normally'' works with Air Lore, and this is the 'Water' benefit area of Time Stop/550);
3) for ''this particular Slow-like effect ONLY'', use 'Water' instead of 'Air' for the relevant calculation, since this is the Water Lore effect that is being worked upon.

Everything involved is "the benefit from Water lore"; everything deals with the same 'level' of benefit (the minor wave stage), and higher/different element stages are unaffected (i.e. "you still need Water + Fire for the full wave effect").
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2226
| author = GAROFALOA
| date = on 10/17/2016 11:09 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Haste Bug
}}
<br>
I've run into the same thing with ballista. Old haste and new. I thought it was supposed to be that way.
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2227
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 10/22/2016 10:36 AM PDT
| subject = 550 w/another spell prepped
}}
<br>
I'm guessing this is intended, but wanted to check anyway, since using 550 doesn't require you to actually prep the spell.

Got stunned while I had 516 prepped and then...

''>stop time''
You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to cast another!

~ Methais
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2228
| author = EARTHDIVER
| date = on 10/27/2016 10:39 PM PDT
| subject = 506 Celerity and emptying boxes into containers
}}
<br>
Is Celerity (or Haste) supposed to reduce the roundtime involved in emptying a box into a container? Neither appear to do anything.

Thanks
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2229
| author = DRUMPEL
| date = on 10/28/2016 07:50 AM PDT
| subject = Re: 506 Celerity and emptying boxes into containers
}}
<br>
''>Is Celerity (or Haste) supposed to reduce the roundtime involved in emptying a box into a container? Neither appear to do anything.''

Probably not.

I think we'll be given a third haste-type spell for things like this. That seems to be the way haste-type spells have transformed into. I've glimpsed the future of wizard spells and I'm a firm believer that things will slowly progress to give a new spell circle for time mages!

You can read my thoughts about it here: http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Wizards/Developer's%20Corner%20-%20Wizards/view/3156

All joking aside - you probably won't see this action added to the benefit of 506 or 535.

-Drumpel
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2230
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 10/28/2016 08:28 AM PDT
| subject = Re: 506 Celerity and emptying boxes into containers
}}
<br>
Haste most definitely reduces RT for emptying containers.

''>empt bag in other bag''
You try to empty the contents of your bag into your bag, and everything falls in quite nicely.
Roundtime: 3 sec.
Roundtime changed to 1 second.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2231
| author = EARTHDIVER
| date = on 10/28/2016 05:05 PM PDT
| subject = Re: 506 Celerity and emptying boxes into containers
}}
<br>
''>Haste most definitely reduces RT for emptying containers.''

''>empt bag in other bag''
''>You try to empty the contents of your bag into your bag, and everything falls in quite nicely.''
''>Roundtime: 3 sec.''
''>Roundtime changed to 1 second.''

It's working for me now. I'm going to go with user error.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2232
| author = GS4-VIDUUS
| date = on 11/04/2016 03:56 PM PDT
| subject = Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
The major elemental spell 520 - Mage Armor has been released. This spell replaces the previous spell Stone Skin.

Mage Armor manipulates the elemental forces within a wizard's body, forming a layer of elemental energy that shifts with their movements. This self-cast spell provides additional protection from physical attacks in the form of critical padding.

The base amount of padding for native casters is somewhat at 20 Major Elemental ranks, increasing every 15 Major Elemental ranks to a max of heavy padding at 95 ranks.

Note: Non-native casters can only achieve light critical padding with this spell, and elemental aspects are not available to non-native casters.
Note: The critical padding provided by this spell and it's aspects stack with other forms of padding.
The armor can be further enhanced by focusing on specific elements to further shore up defenses via CAST <Element>. Focusing on an element will produce additional defenses based on lore training in the respective elemental lore.

Focusing on the Fire Aspect of this spell allows a mage to channel his defenses into stronger offensive attacks.
Focusing on the Water Aspect of this spell boosts the mage's defenses against dispel attacks.
Focusing on the Earth Aspect of this spell will shield the mage in a layer of rock when he becomes stunned.
Focusing on the Air Aspect of this spell will allow the mage to carry more.
Focusing on the Lightning Aspect of this spell will stun all enemies in the room for a short time when the mage becomes stunned.

More specific details can be found on the wiki at this link https://gswiki.play.net/Mage_Armor_(520)

Credit to goes GameMaster Konacon for working on the code for this release.

Viduus
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2233
| author = DOUG
| date = on 11/04/2016 04:01 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
Looks intriguing!

Gonna have to go play with this one a bit.

Doug
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2234
| author = VICIMER
| date = on 11/04/2016 04:06 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
Isn't the Friday news dump for bad things?
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2235
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 11/04/2016 04:17 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
Thanks for all the work on this new spell!

Are we sure it's live though? The messaging seems a mix of both.

''>stop 520''
With a moment's concentration, you terminate the Stone Skin spell.
The layer of stone surrounding you crumbles away.

''>pre 520''
You recite a series of mystical phrases while raising your hands, invoking Stone Skin...
Your spell is ready.

''>cast fire''
You gesture.
A layer of raw elemental energy forms around you.
You shift the focus of the surrounding energies into fire.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

''>spell active''
You currently have the following active spells:
Elemental Defense I ................ 0:43:15
Elemental Defense II ............... 0:43:15
Elemental Defense III .............. 0:43:15
Elemental Targeting ................ 0:43:15
Elemental Barrier .................. 0:43:15
Thurfel's Ward ..................... 1:35:15
Elemental Deflection ............... 1:35:15
Elemental Bias ..................... 1:35:15
Strength ........................... 1:35:15
Elemental Focus .................... 1:35:15
Stone Skin ......................... 1:59:55
Haste .............................. 1:08:15
Temporal Reversion ................. 1:35:15
Prismatic Guard .................... 1:09:15
Mass Blur .......................... 1:09:15
Melgorehn's Aura ................... 1:09:15

Also, can we get a detailed table for the earth lore aspect as with the other elements? The numbers from the seed 3 summation chart don't work out to superbly, unless the critical padding page on the Wiki is incorrect. Thanks!
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2236
| author = DOUG
| date = on 11/04/2016 04:19 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
Tease! It's still Stone Skin. :P (Kinda.)

{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|prep 520
|-
|You recite a series of mystical phrases while raising your hands, invoking Stone Skin...
|-
|Your spell is ready.
|-
|''>cast water''
|-
|You gesture.
|-
|A layer of raw elemental energy forms around you.
|}

Doug
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2237
| author = GS4-VIDUUS
| date = on 11/04/2016 04:41 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
''>>Are we sure it's live though? The messaging seems a mix of both.''

The spell and it's effects are live, but I have a little additional work to get the prep messaging updated appropriately, will be done shortly.

''>>Also, can we get a detailed table for the earth lore aspect as with the other elements? The numbers from the seed 3 summation chart don't work out to superbly, unless the critical padding page on the Wiki is incorrect. ''

Afraid that's as detailed as I can get at the moment, the superbly comment is correct, but did include enhancives to match the other statements if that helps.

Viduus
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2238
| author = DOUG
| date = on 11/04/2016 04:45 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
Just a brief update.

From "first cast" of 520 with CAST <ELEMENT>

Fire - works
Earth - works
Air - works
Lightning - works
Water - only works if you cast an element other than water first, then cast again with water (so two casts required to get to water).

Spell Active shows Stone Skin (as per LadyFluer's post)

And after casting it up, when stopping (to continue testing)

''>>>stop 520''
''>>With a moment's concentration, you terminate the Stone Skin spell.''
''>>The layer of stone surrounding you crumbles away.''

Doug
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2239
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 11/04/2016 04:49 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
''>Afraid that's as detailed as I can get at the moment, the superbly comment is correct, but did include enhancives to match the other statements if that helps.''

250 ranks at seed 3 summation = +20 or upper end of masterfully according to the Wiki, so something must be incorrect somewhere or I'm not understanding it. Still very interesting though!
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2240
| author = GS4-VIDUUS
| date = on 11/04/2016 04:54 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
250 ranks at seed 3 summation = +20 or upper end of masterfully according to the Wiki, so something must be incorrect somewhere or I'm not understanding it. Still very interesting though!



You're forgetting the base padding for the stunned effect, before lore training is considered in the calcs.

Viduus
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2242
| author = GS4-VIDUUS
| date = on 11/04/2016 05:00 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
''>>I understand if you can't give more specific information, but the Wiki critical padding table lists superbly as 21-25 points and phenomenal as 31-35, so with an exactly 10 point difference even at the minimum thresholds for each, the base padding is already included in this statement.''

I see your confusion. There's a base benefit for the spell, a base benefit for the stunned effect, and a lore benefit for earth lore.

I'll see about trying to make it more clear once I've stomped these issues being reported.

Viduus
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2243
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 11/04/2016 05:01 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
Never mind, I understand it now. Thanks!
<br>
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2245
| author = DOUG
| date = on 11/04/2016 05:06 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
Heh. Nice.

Doug
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2247
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 11/04/2016 05:13 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
I removed it in case you want people to figure this out on their own, but this is very nice. Thanks!
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2248
| author = MEKK1
| date = on 11/04/2016 05:13 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
Looks pretty good, and a SUPER thank you for updating the wiki!

http://i.imgur.com/lsWPzG9.gif
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2249
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 11/04/2016 05:27 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
If you get a chance, is it possible to set INCANT settings for the elemental aspect so it defaults to a particular aspect with mana spellup? Thanks!
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2250
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 11/04/2016 05:33 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
Thanks also for the ability to get a base benefit for each elemental aspect before lore bonuses are applied. This is greatly appreciated and finally the correct direction for things to be moving.
<br>
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2251
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 11/04/2016 06:07 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
This looks like a pretty awesome and fun spell.

-- Robert

A powerful whirlpool is suddenly overtaken by a windy vortex!
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2252
| author = BORENJ2
| date = on 11/04/2016 07:13 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
Thank you, it is wonderful and a great addition! Kudos to all :)

- Whill
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2254
| author = GS4-VIDUUS
| date = on 11/04/2016 07:15 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
''>>>stop 520''
''>>With a moment's concentration, you terminate the Stone Skin spell.''
''>>The layer of stone surrounding you crumbles away.''

Fixed.

''>>Water - only works if you cast an element other than water first, then cast again with water (so two casts required to get to water).''

''>>Doug''

I'm having trouble replicating this issue. Is it still an issue for you? If so can you consistently cause it, or is it random?

As a side note I'm aware of the issue with spell preps, mnemonics, and spell active messaging, and have a fix for it, but I can't push it just yet. The description shouldn't impact the function of the spell - aside from being able to use the new mnemonic.

Viduus
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2255
| author = GS4-VIDUUS
| date = on 11/04/2016 07:17 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
''>>If you get a chance, is it possible to set INCANT settings for the elemental aspect so it defaults to a particular aspect with mana spellup? Thanks!''

Once I'm certain the core functionality is working as intended I'll circle back to this to see what can be done.

Viduus
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2256
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 11/04/2016 07:25 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
''>Once I'm certain the core functionality is working as intended I'll circle back to this to see what can be done.''

Thanks! Once the other messaging is updated, will there be a way to determine which elemental aspect we've chosen in case we forget?
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2257
| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 11/04/2016 07:38 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
here's another:

''>imbed 520 in rod using raise for 4 charges''
You concentrate on funneling your power into the rod.

You feel that you have successfully placed 4 charges of the Stone Skin spell into it.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2258
| author = DOUG
| date = on 11/04/2016 07:44 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
''>>I'm having trouble replicating this issue. Is it still an issue for you? If so can you consistently cause it, or is it random?''

Wasn't at the time, could reproduce it consistently. But. . . now I can't! I'll keep an eye on it though. And I like the random incant too. ;)

Doug
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2259
| author = TANDL
| date = on 11/04/2016 07:47 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
So just to be perfectly clear the description says the padding applies to physical attacks. Is it safe to assume that an all inclusive list of those is weapon swings, CMANs, and SMR style attacks that are physical in nature?

Tal, player of.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2260
| author = DRUMPEL
| date = on 11/04/2016 08:15 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
5 points of padding from the initial cast.
+3 points for having 65 MjE spell ranks.
+5 or +6 points for having SWCP armor

I will have 13-14 points of crit padding when I cast the spell. Awesome.

If I happen to get stunned:
+13 points for having 130 ranks EL:E
Total of 26-27 points of crit padding.

That's actually pretty cool. I'll have to see how things work out from this point on. Nice update from what I see.

-Drumpel
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2261
| author = GS4-VIDUUS
| date = on 11/04/2016 08:24 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
All messaging related references to stone skin should now be gone, also the new prep MAGEARMOR should now work. If you continue to see stone skin references then let me know.

''>>So just to be perfectly clear the description says the padding applies to physical attacks... ''

You should find yourself protected from most attacks while stunned, assuming you have the earth aspect active. There's explicit messaging when the earth aspect kicks in to protect you so it'll be obvious when it's there and obvious when it's missing, I'll leave it as a exercise to discover what it looks like.

If you find you're not covered by an attack and it seems like it should be something covered, then let me know.

Viduus
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2262
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 11/04/2016 08:32 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
520 should be excluded from use with 420 since 220 also cannot be imbedded/blessed as a Major circle spell.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2263
| author = KITHUS
| date = on 11/05/2016 08:18 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|520 should be excluded from use with 420 since 220 also cannot be imbedded/blessed as a Major circle spell.
|}

There is zero reason to exclude it. The benefits for non-native casters is capped at the addition of light crit padding with no elemental benefits. This allows us to imbed something for others that is potentially useful. I was thrilled to discover I could provide an additional service. Please DO NOT remove this from imbed.

Keith/Brinret/Shiun

Keith is correct

Wyrom, APM

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Help%20for%20Players/Policy%20Discussions/view/246
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2264
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 11/05/2016 08:22 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
There is absolutely a reason to exclude it because 220 is excluded. I wish all wizard spells would stop being given away like water to every other profession. Wizards can give everything away but are much more limited in what they can get from other pure professions as it is, so there is zero need to further this imbalance.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2265
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 11/05/2016 08:50 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
''>There is zero reason to exclude it. The benefits for non-native casters is capped at the addition of light crit padding with no elemental benefits. This allows us to imbed something for others that is potentially useful. I was thrilled to discover I could provide an additional service. Please DO NOT remove this from imbed.''

I would buy this argument if wizard spells weren't 42378423x more readily available to other classes than other classes' spells are available to us.

''>There is absolutely a reason to exclude it because 220 is excluded. I wish all wizard spells would stop being given away like water to every other profession. Wizards can give everything away but are much more limited in what they can get from other pure professions as it is, so there is zero need to further this imbalance.''

^ That.

~ Methais
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2266
| author = DOUG
| date = on 11/05/2016 09:06 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
''>>I'm having trouble replicating this issue. ''

Sent a log - seeing how I can best recreate the problem.

Doug
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2267
| author = KITHUS
| date = on 11/05/2016 09:20 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
I'd think you should make an argument that 200s spells should be more available in holy receptacle instead of making 520 inaccessible.

Keith/Brinret/Shiun

Keith is correct

Wyrom, APM

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Help%20for%20Players/Policy%20Discussions/view/246
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2268
| author = NEWHALLJ
| date = on 11/05/2016 09:20 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
''>520 should be excluded from use with 420 since 220 also cannot be imbedded/blessed as a Major circle spell.''



I thought this was a joke until I saw the responses. While I get some of the other reasons, the comparison to 220 is silly. No one who can normally cast 220 can cast Magic Item Create. It takes extreme efforts to imbed anything from that whole circle. By that logic, they should make 501 thru 519 not able to be imbedded, too.

The spells do completely different things. For example, 219 is not imbeddible, but 519 is. They just have the same last 2 numbers. Mage Armor is already specifically balanced for "non-native" casters.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2269
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 11/05/2016 09:23 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
When referencing spiritual spells, all the exclusions are via 325, which is the cleric's version of 420. So it doesn't take extreme effort at all and it's 100% comparable.

I'm still waiting for Curse of the Star then, since we're in favor of sharing everything. Meanwhile, I'd prefer wizard spells to stop being catered to bot uses.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2270
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 11/05/2016 09:28 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
''>I'd think you should make an argument that 200s spells should be more available in holy receptacle instead of making 520 inaccessible.''

I'd never argue for this as I believe every profession should be treated less as bots instead of requiring every character to eventually need every spell to get by again, regressing to GS3 levels of accessibility.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2271
| author = DOUG
| date = on 11/05/2016 10:19 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
FYI - this felt like 2 seconds, not 2 rounds. Might actually have been 1 round (time dialation in combat), but no way it was two.

A half-elven marauder springs from the shadows and strikes at you!
[Roll result: 146 (open d100: 45)]
A half-elven marauder delivers a blow to your head with his longsword!
...8 damage!
Roundtime changed to 2 seconds.
You are stunned!
You are dazed!
Roundtime: 5 sec.
''>''
You are still stunned.
''>''
The raw elemental energy surrounding you suddenly sparks with electricity.
Sparks surrounding you arc out and hit a grizzly bear, stunning him!
Sparks surrounding you arc out and hit an arctic wolverine, with no effect.
Sparks surrounding you arc out and hit an arctic wolverine, stunning him!
Sparks surrounding you arc out and hit a halfling highwayman, stunning him!
Sparks surrounding you arc out and hit a half-elven marauder, stunning him!
''>''
A caribou lopes in!
''>l''
[Northern Mountains, Timberline]
You notice a caribou, a caribou (dead), a grizzly bear (stunned), an arctic wolverine (stunned), an arctic wolverine (stunned), a halfling highwayman (stunned) and a half-elven marauder (stunned).
Obvious paths: southeast, southwest
''>''
A halfling highwayman stands there, dazed and confused.
''>''
A caribou rears back and kicks her front hooves at a half-elven marauder!
Reeling and staggering, the half-elven marauder barely blocks the attack with his reinforced shield!
''>''
[Roll result: 97 (open d100: 81)]
A halfling highwayman feints to the left, and you almost buy the ruse, but you recover just in time.


Doug
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2272
| author = PFLATS
| date = on 11/05/2016 10:30 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
''>I thought this was a joke until I saw the responses. While I get some of the other reasons, the comparison to 220 is silly. No one who can normally cast 220 can cast Magic Item Create. It takes extreme efforts to imbed anything from that whole circle. By that logic, they should make 501 thru 519 not able to be imbedded, too.''

The 200s circle is definitely imbedible: Clerics can imbed, but only into orb gems, not magic items.

https://gswiki.play.net/Holy_Receptacle_(325)#Spell_Imbedding
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2273
| author = PFLATS
| date = on 11/05/2016 11:00 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
Also, I'm trying to clean up the wiki a bit to clarify things, especially on the Fire Aspect side.

''>Obtaining 15 ranks in fire will grant a +20 stance bonus, allowing the mage to remain in advanced stance while obtaining all benefits of offensive. The maximum benefit (base+bonus) of +36 is obtained at 231 fire ranks.''

Shouldn't that be a -20/-36 stance bonus, or at least an unsigned stance bonus of 20/36 for clarity?

Everywhere else, defensive stance is reported as 100%, offensive as 0%, even though the PARRY verb is long gone.

When you channel a spell, your stance goes from, say, 40% to 4% for that cast.

To me, I could see that as a -36 bonus or a 36 bonus, but not a +36 bonus. A negative bonus is confusing for some people who haven't had the pleasure of dealing with THAC0, so I'd probably want to go with an unsigned 36 bonus.

Thoughts?
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{{saved-post
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| author = VEYTHORNE
| date = on 11/05/2016 11:12 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
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Would it be possible to add a cooldown to spell active/active spells for the water aspect dispel block?
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{{saved-post
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| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
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<br>
I understand you're trying to frame this argument as pro vs anti bot but that is a fallacious argument. Even if someone has a wizard that is not their main that does not make them a bot. Is your sorcerer a bot because you consider your wizard your main? Even an extreme example like my wizard who has never hunted (I think I will be changing this with the enchant changes) is not a bot. He is a fully fleshed out character with a recognizable personality that prefers to create things rather than destroy. He's a master forger and enchanter, as well as a wizard guild master and a pretty solid PC player. Just because his play style isn't one you would prefer does not make him a bot.

You are completely ignoring those who want to have more to offer others in this multi-player game. Many of us love having utility we can provide to other players. In this case it's self-cast so other players have to actually train MIU, probably purchase an imbedded item to have access to it and it won't be anywhere near as strong as what wizards get for themselves. My main is a ranger and I would love to have 620 (what I call the empty spell slot) be more usable and more desired by other players. I would prefer to see more spells allowed to be imbedded with 325 as well. Light crit padding added on to what you already have is not going to make or break anyone but hopefully it's enough that some people will seek it out.

Keith/Brinret/Shiun

Keith is correct

Wyrom, APM

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Help%20for%20Players/Policy%20Discussions/view/246
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{{saved-post
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| author = VEYTHORNE
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| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
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<br>
Is this working as intended? The water ability was not within the cooldown/recovery period. On a previous hunt, it blocked the dispel providing this message: The raw elemental energy surrounding you takes on a watery look as it absorbs the magic.

In the following dispel, it only attempts to absorb the magic.


An Ithzir seer fades into view!
An Ithzir seer suddenly opens her eyes and stares directly at you!

A pale, flickering nimbus coalesces around you, then vanishes in a brilliant flash!

You feel the unnatural surge of necrotic power wane away.
The raw elemental energy surrounding you takes on a watery look as it attempts to absorb the magic.
You feel the aura of confidence leave you.
The powerful look leaves you.
The air about you stops shimmering.
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{{saved-post
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| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 11/05/2016 12:09 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
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<br>
''>Is this working as intended? The water ability was not within the cooldown/recovery period. On a previous hunt, it blocked the dispel providing this message: The raw elemental energy surrounding you takes on a watery look as it absorbs the magic.''

''>In the following dispel, it only attempts to absorb the magic.''


''>An Ithzir seer fades into view!''
''>An Ithzir seer suddenly opens her eyes and stares directly at you!''

''>A pale, flickering nimbus coalesces around you, then vanishes in a brilliant flash!''

''>You feel the unnatural surge of necrotic power wane away.''
''>The raw elemental energy surrounding you takes on a watery look as it attempts to absorb the magic.''
''>You feel the aura of confidence leave you.''
''>The powerful look leaves you.''
''>The air about you stops shimmering.''

I think the water thing only absorbs one spell. So if something casts mass dispel it's only going to prevent one spell from being dispelled but the rest will still drop.

~ Methais
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{{saved-post
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| author = VEYTHORNE
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| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
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''>I think the water thing only absorbs one spell. So if something casts mass dispel it's only going to prevent one spell from being dispelled but the rest will still drop. ~ Methais''

No, it blocks 1 dispel attempt.


Per the release statement and GS wiki:

Water Aspect
Focusing on water will allow a mage to negate dispelling attacks. The base benefit of this aspect is the negation of one dispel every 30 seconds.

Training in Elemental Lore, Water will reduce the 30 second cooldown one additional second based on seed 1 summation of ranks. The maximum benefit of this aspect is a 21 second reduction, to a minimum of 9 seconds, obtained at 231 water lore bonus.
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{{saved-post
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| author = DOUG
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| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
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<br>
''>>So if something casts mass dispel it's only going to prevent one spell from being dispelled but the rest will still drop.''


NooOOOOoOOoO!

Please?

Doug
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{{saved-post
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| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
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<br>
It blocks the dispel attempt, not a certain number of spells.


An Ithzir seer fades into view!
An Ithzir seer suddenly opens his eyes and stares directly at you!

A pale, flickering nimbus coalesces around you, then vanishes in a brilliant flash!

The raw elemental energy surrounding you takes on a watery look as it absorbs the magic.


I posted because after the first time it blocked the dispel attempt, it failed to block an attempt and provided a different message during the next hunt.

There is either a bug in the cooldown/recovery period. Or it is using borrowed code from 319 and it expects us to recast the spell to refresh the ability.
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{{saved-post
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| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 11/05/2016 01:30 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
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<br>
I always read 1 dispel to mean 1 actual dispel, not one dispel attempt. I'm not sure why anyone would expect otherwise. It's basically 1701 layered on top.
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{{saved-post
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| author = LADYFLEUR
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| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
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<br>
Any character that provides utility without needing to be present during combat situations, whether they are someone's main or has their own personality or whatever, by definition, is a bot.

I'm not against sharing spells. I'm against giving away all wizard spells to all and sundry without requiring a wizard to be present as part of the group in hunting. Clerics are protected via the way 307/310 are set up, empaths with their lore-based major spiritual spells that have group effects, etc. Most sorcerer spells are of a unique nature such that they can't be shared at all (712, Curse of the Star). Profession imbalance occurs when all other pures can access all of a wizard's best spells without even requiring the presence of a wizard in combat, while a wizard is afforded the benefit of none of the best of what the other pures have even if those characters are taken along for the hunt.

Sorcerers can access nearly every spell except a small handful with 714. Clerics and empaths can do the same via 208. Wizards are the only ones left out in the cold, and yet, all of a wizard's spells continues to be widely accessible to all.
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{{saved-post
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| author = VEYTHORNE
| date = on 11/05/2016 01:39 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
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<br>
''>That seems to be a very interesting 'limit' to the spell's capabilities.''
''>It only dropped non-elemental spells. Presuming you had elemental spells, they survived.''
''>It's entirely possible that this effect only takes on elemental dispel attempts.''
''>Doug''

I believe the spell being cast is 230, which will target spiritual spells first, and then go for elemental spells. I always have spiritual spells active, so it's not going to hit my elemental spells.


''>I always read 1 dispel to mean 1 actual dispel, not one dispel attempt. I'm not sure why anyone would expect otherwise. It's basically 1701 layered on top.''
''>LadyFleur''

''>https://gswiki.play.net/Mage_Armor_(520)''
''>Water Aspect''
''>Focusing on water will allow a mage to negate dispelling attacks.''

It specifically says on the gswiki, negate dispel attack. I see this as the wizard version of spell 319, which blocks all types of attacks.

1701 is simply the first spell to be dispelled by a dispel attack. It doesn't negate the dispel attack in any way.
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{{saved-post
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| author = VEYTHORNE
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| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
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<br>
For some reason, 520 is taking 99 mana to cast.



''>mana''
Maximum Mana Points: 307
Remaining Mana Points: 109

Mana gained off node: 56
Mana gained on node: 86

Mana Control abilities:
MANA PULSE - Manually invoke a mana pulse to gain mana as if you were off a node.
MANA SPELLUP - Instantly cast all of your defensive spells.

You have used the MANA SPELLUP ability 0 out of 4 times for today.

''>prep 520''
Mana surges through you in a brilliant display of silvery motes which skitter across your skin as you prepare Mage Armor...
Your spell is ready.

''>cast water''
You gesture.
A layer of raw elemental energy forms around you.
You shift the focus of the surrounding energies into water.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

''>mana''
Maximum Mana Points: 307
Remaining Mana Points: 10
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{{saved-post
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| author = ASHRAAM
| date = on 11/05/2016 04:08 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
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<br>
''>>I'm not against sharing spells. I'm against giving away all wizard spells to all and sundry without requiring a wizard to be present as part of the group in hunting.''

This spell seems a lot less like 220 and a lot more like 319, which I believe can be imbedded into gems with 325. Similar to 319, this spell has substantially reduced value for non-native casters. They cannot cast it with the elemental trigger because it has to be activated via a verb, and not via the cast method. It will only ever provide someone with "Light Critical Padding", which is likely +1 padding. That's basically useless in a similar way that a non-cleric using 319 gets next to no benefit against like-level foes because they will never have sufficient Cleric CS to make that spell activate reliably.

I don't see any reason for the developers to put any effort into removing this spell from the list of spells that can be imbedded into magic items via 420. Nor any reason to argue against it being "shared" due to the massively diminished power of the spell when cast via any other means than having trained MjE.
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{{saved-post
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| author = BORENJ2
| date = on 11/05/2016 04:10 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
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<br>
Definitely agree with Fleur on this. Shoot, two of our utility spells can be obtained from a daily login boost (along with being fairly common drops).

In my opinion, if there's a middle ground for wanting it to be utility based (I'm not for it) we could go the route of other spells and have a greatly reduced duration ''or'' require the wizard to be grouped for the spell to stay up.

Let's stop giving every trick in our bags away.

- Whill
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{{saved-post
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| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 11/05/2016 06:14 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
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It literally requires zero effort for Dev to put 520 on a blocked imbed list, the way they did with 215 and all the other exclusions. It's the principle of giving away level 20 spells to all and sundry that is the issue here.
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{{saved-post
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| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 11/05/2016 07:06 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
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<br>
''>or require the wizard to be grouped for the spell to stay up''

Do this, but increase the padding the group gets.

~ Methais
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{{saved-post
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| author = OM1E5GA
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| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
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''''

All 714 does is make scrolls last longer. Any character can train in Arcane Symbols and have access to all the same spells... including 208 (there's even a scroll in the Landing pawnshop with 208 on it as I type this).

Speaking of 208, in 20 years I've been asked to prep a spell so someone could steal it exactly once (years ago a high level empath stole 318 from my cleric when there were multiple bodies that needed a raise). It might have the potential to be useful if you can ward someone well enough to steal spells from them, but it's certainly not used much.

Starchitin

A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
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{{saved-post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 11/05/2016 05:45 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
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''>> Focusing on the Lightning Aspect of this spell will stun all enemies in the room for a short time when the mage becomes stunned.''

1) Assuming this only applies to enemies that can normally be stunned. Correct?

2) Is there a lightning component that might have additional adverse effects in wet rooms?

3) Is this player friendly or are non-grouped PCs considered enemies?

More general question:

4) Do critters that can cast this spell have the ability to cast an elemental version or do they simply cast the base version of the spell?

-- Robert

A powerful whirlpool is suddenly overtaken by a windy vortex!
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{{saved-post
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| author = OM1E5GA
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| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
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<br>
I move for this spell to replace 725 instead.

Starchitin

A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.
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{{saved-post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = ROLFARD
| date = on 11/05/2016 07:39 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
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<br>
Mage Armor (520) does NOT activate on mana spellup.


Also, regarding the messaging for Mass Blur (911) when using mana spellup, I believe the invisibility messaging is appropriate when noone is seeing you cast any individual spells. In effect, mana spellup is an invisible spellup!
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{{saved-post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2295
| author = DRUMPEL
| date = on 11/05/2016 08:15 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
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<br>
''>Mage Armor (520) does NOT activate on mana spellup.''

Either they fixed it or it is working - at least for me. I STOPped 520 and then did a mana spellup.

''>stop 520''
With a moment's concentration, you terminate the Mage Armor spell.
The layer of raw elemental energy surrounding you dissipates.

''>mana spellup''
With your advanced understanding of elemental mana, you transcend the normal limitations of magic and release upon yourself a flurry of abjurations...

A silvery luminescence surrounds you.
A bright luminescence surrounds you.
A brilliant luminescence surrounds you.
You are filled with a sense of great confidence.
Your skin tingles for a moment and you feel more secure.
Glowing specks of dark brown energy begin to spin around you.
You are surrounded by a shimmering field of energy.
You feel more magically aware.
You feel much stronger.
You bristle with energy.
A layer of raw elemental energy forms around you.
You shift the focus of the surrounding energies into earth.
The world stutters around you for a moment, then resumes its slower speed.
For a moment, everything you hear and see echoes weirdly around you, but then everything seems normal again. Your personal temporal reality has been slightly offset from the true flow of time.
Multicolored rays shoot out of your body and flow into the shimmering sphere around you.
If you were visible, your form would have blurred.
A luminescent aura begins to swirl around you.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

-Drumpel
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{{saved-post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 11/05/2016 12:28 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
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<br>
is there a point to having a Major Elemental Circle folder at this point?
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{{saved-post
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| author = VEYTHORNE
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| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
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<br>
More strange behavior with Ithzir seers.

Just as you BLANK, the Ithzir seer...

So it faded in with a dispel attempt, and instantly vanished due to something. I assume the 520 water ability. But the dispel wasn't blocked. And the dispel still took 6 spells even though the seer was no longer in the room.


An Ithzir seer fades into view!
An Ithzir seer suddenly opens her eyes and stares directly at you!

A pale, flickering nimbus coalesces around you, then vanishes in a brilliant flash!

Just as you , the Ithzir seer shimmers and fades away, leaving you gesturing at nothingness!
The raw elemental energy surrounding you takes on a watery look as it attempts to absorb the magic.
Your boosted confidence and fearlessness fade.
You feel the unnatural surge of necrotic power wane away.
The light blue glow leaves you.
You feel the aura of confidence leave you.
The misty halo fades from you.
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{{saved-post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = DOUG
| date = on 11/05/2016 01:07 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
That seems to be a very interesting 'limit' to the spell's capabilities.

It only dropped non-elemental spells. Presuming you had elemental spells, they survived.

It's entirely possible that this effect only takes on elemental dispel attempts.

Doug
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{{saved-post
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| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 11/05/2016 02:23 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
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<br>
''>is there a point to having a Major Elemental Circle folder at this point?''

Yes.

~ Methais
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{{saved-post
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| author = DEANSMITH
| date = on 11/05/2016 03:11 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
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<br>
Excellent spell!

A few questions:

Water - When (PC) Spirit or Elemental Dispel are absorbed, it will still drain mana. Intended?

Water / Lightning - These both failed a few times in like level scenarios for me (in the test realm). What are the success factors of the absorb/stun effects? Level based? Fumble chance?

Overall, I think the implementation of this spell is amazing. I'd rank the usefulness of the elemental effects as follows:

1) Earth - This is just bonkers for war mage and pure mage alike.
2) Air - I will have this up 24/7 at every merchant event from now on.
3) Fire - I really wish that this could have let us cast from Neutral. That said, I may learn Combat Mastery to supplement this.
4/5) Lightning/Water - The fact that these two have a chance to fail has them below all other effects for me.
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{{saved-post
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| author = SJOSEPH
| date = on 11/05/2016 04:04 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
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I don't think the water part of 520 is working, I was in the bowels focused on water and an Elder still stripped 4 spells away on it's first cast.
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{{saved-post
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| author = DEANSMITH
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| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
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<br>
''>I don't think the water part of 520 is working, I was in the bowels focused on water and an Elder still stripped 4 spells away on it's first cast.''

From what I can tell, the dispel absorption isn't guaranteed. There are two results:

SUCCESS == The raw elemental energy surrounding you takes on a watery look as it absorbs the magic.
FAILURE == The raw elemental energy surrounding you takes on a watery look as it attempts to absorb the magic.

Failing to absorb the magic also seems to start the cooldown.
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{{saved-post
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| author = VEYTHORNE
| date = on 11/05/2016 04:27 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
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<br>
''>From what I can tell, the dispel absorption isn't guaranteed. There are two results:''
''>SUCCESS == The raw elemental energy surrounding you takes on a watery look as it absorbs the magic.''
''>FAILURE == The raw elemental energy surrounding you takes on a watery look as it attempts to absorb the magic.''
''>Failing to absorb the magic also seems to start the cooldown.''

I believe it's a bug.

I was able to block a dispel attack once, and it has failed every time afterwards.

The gswiki also mentions nothing about it being random. It says that you can negate one dispel attack every 30 seconds (base), and every 9 seconds with 231 water lore ranks.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2305
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 11/06/2016 09:22 AM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
''>So when can we get a reduction of non-self cast power and/or availability to mobility, dauntless, heroism, prayer, and champions might? ''

The same day these professions are willing to share 10 out of 12 core utility/defensive spells in their Major and Profession circles with no restrictions. Non-wizards never needed 520, were never intended to need 520, and should advocate for their own 520 equivalent spell if that is what they want instead of trying to get access to something never intended to be theirs.

All spell casting professions are intended to share some spells, but not all.

This doesn't make things remotely equal, because 10 out of 12 of a wizard's core defensive/utility spells can still be accessed by all and sundry on a regular basis via other-cast or imbeds (the easiest outside source of self-cast spells vs. relying on treasure system drops or orb gems). This is, however, a long overdue step in the right direction.
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{{saved-post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = CAVEMANIAC
| date = on 11/05/2016 06:02 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
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Its probably not random but likely similar to how 319 and 716 are implemented with a hidden roll of some sort.
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{{saved-post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = ALUVIUS
| date = on 11/05/2016 06:06 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
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<br>
I love that the spell has base elemental effects instead of requiring attunement and/or a certain number of ranks in a lore in order to have any effect. More like this and thanks!
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = GS4-VIDUUS
| date = on 11/05/2016 06:33 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
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<br>
SUCCESS == The raw elemental energy surrounding you takes on a watery look as it absorbs the magic.
FAILURE == The raw elemental energy surrounding you takes on a watery look as it attempts to absorb the magic.



I didn't mean to imply there was a guaranteed result on the water and lightning aspects of 520 on the wiki. They are subject to a hidden roll. You have a really high chance of being successful, but you will occasionally fail to have those effects trigger as they are part of combat and do factor a set of criteria into success. So, you probably won't prevent that level 200 beast from dispelling you, and you probably won't be able to stun it with a retaliation strike.

Viduus
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{{saved-post
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| author = VEYTHORNE
| date = on 11/05/2016 06:42 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
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<br>
''> I didn't mean to imply there was a guaranteed result on the water and lightning aspects of 520 on the wiki. They are subject to a hidden roll. You have a really high chance of being successful, but you will occasionally fail to have those effects trigger as they are part of combat and do factor a set of criteria into success. So, you probably won't prevent that level 200 beast from dispelling you, and you probably won't be able to stun it with a retaliation strike.''
''>Viduus''

That's pretty disappointing. Preventing the dispel has only happened once that I've seen so far. Are you going to share what goes into the success portion?


Dispel is a significant problem for a class that relies on spells for defense. Being able to prevent a dispel attack every 30 seconds was a huge benefit. It has failed to prevent the dispel attack 5/6 times during my use. I've noticed the other benefits, specifically fire and air, aren't random, why are the other lore effects random?
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{{saved-post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
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| author = ALLENM20
| date = on 11/05/2016 06:52 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
Without a guaranteed result for water and lightning I think you're guaranteeing they will be rarely used.


As I gaze over the horizon, the wind tugs at my cloak and whispers, "Adventure" in my ear.

AIM: Kaight (Matt) GS4
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2311
| author = GS4-VIDUUS
| date = on 11/05/2016 07:05 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
''>>That's pretty disappointing. Preventing the dispel has only happened once that I've seen so far. Are you going to share what goes into the success portion?''



The situation you described at first glance seems like it could have merit for being a bug. Assuming the creatures doing it aren't special, you aren't severely over-hunting (20+ levels), and a few other factors you should be blocking dispels more often than you reported.

I was planning on looking in on you after I cleared out some issues, to see if it's just bad luck, the formula needs tweaking, or something else is going on.

Viduus
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2312
| author = GS4-VIDUUS
| date = on 11/05/2016 07:12 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
In other news...

Mage armor is no longer imbeddable. Mage armor is considered a signature defense spell of mage class and tailored specifically to them. As such, it will have reduced availability moving forward.

Viduus
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2313
| author = RAGGLER
| date = on 11/05/2016 07:25 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
This spell is definitely looking like a great new addition, so a big thanks to everyone involved! I also love that each lore based effect can be accessed regardless of training, and only sees improvement from lore training. This is definitely the direction that many of our spells should go.

Just out of curiousity, and maybe it's known but I've never heard, but is there a hard cap on the amount of padding one could achieve? It looks like a fully decked out earth mage could potentially achieve a base 10 points with an additional 26 points while stunned, for a total of 36 points of padding while stunned with 250 earth lore ranks. Throw some HCP armor and maybe sunfist into the mix, and you're suddenly sitting at 56 points of padding, which is currently off the charts.

Isle Snack Muncher
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2314
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 11/05/2016 07:38 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
''>Mage armor is no longer imbeddable. Mage armor is considered a signature defense spell of mage class and tailored specifically to them. As such, it will have reduced availability moving forward.''

Thank you very much for this update.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2315
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 11/05/2016 07:55 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
It would be helpful if whoever's editing the Wiki doesn't overwrite the accurate GM information with inaccurate data. The earth lore table, in particular, is completely incorrect.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2317
| author = MIGHTONS1
| date = on 11/05/2016 08:23 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
One tiny bug:

Changing the aspect to or from air doesn't update the Stormfront encumbrance bar to reflect your changed encumbrance level. The bar stays where it was until you do something that involves an encumbrance check, like standing up or typing "encumbrance".
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2318
| author = GS4-VIDUUS
| date = on 11/05/2016 08:27 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
Changing the aspect to or from air doesn't update the Stormfront encumbrance bar to reflect your changed encumbrance level. The bar stays where it was until you do something that involves an encumbrance check, like standing up or typing "encumbrance".



I'll look into it.

Viduus
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2319
| author = GS4-VIDUUS
| date = on 11/05/2016 09:22 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
I have to say that after spending a good chunk of my day Friday struggling to put together a basic wiki page that I have a new appreciation for the work the authors do on it. It seems like a labor of love to keep it visually appealing, accurate, and consistent with the rest of the site.

I was actually hoping that someone would clean up my page a bit. If some of the information is changed in the process of improving it, it's not a huge deal to go back and correct any inaccuracies.

I'll plan to review it once the work in progress is removed, so no need to panic over it changing.

Viduus
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2320
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 11/05/2016 09:38 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
As nice as this bug is, it seems that the fire aspect is currently allowing the stance benefits to apply regardless of CHANNEL status.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2321
| author = DRUMPEL
| date = on 11/05/2016 10:26 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
''>Changing the aspect to or from air doesn't update the Stormfront encumbrance bar to reflect your changed encumbrance level. The bar stays where it was until you do something that involves an encumbrance check, like standing up or typing "encumbrance".''

I really disliked Stormfront when it first released and I thought the Wizard front end was so awesome! Fast forward a bit and I use Stormfront now and I have for years.....why didn't anyone tell me they had an encumbrance bar on it? Seriously....what the heck?

Now I have it up on all my characters! Nice!

-Drumpel
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2322
| author = TANDL
| date = on 11/05/2016 11:35 PM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
Small thing to note with the wiki, when creating or editing pages it's often a huge time saver to grab templates off of other pages and then edit them to the correct values. Getting it all up to snuff (and formatted to where it's fit to be viewed) can take some time. Past that we do sometimes have people working to complete pages without a thorough understandings of whatever specific systems are included. Patience please.

This particular page isn't something I've contributed to meaningfully, but I've had my hand in enough of them to realize how much effort it can take.

Tal.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2323
| author = SJOSEPH1
| date = on 11/06/2016 12:09 AM PDT
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
Is the water focused version working as intended? I have 93 ranks of water lore on this mage, I had another mage of equal level dispel me and this is what happened.



''>''
xxxxxx intones a phrase of elemental power while raising her hands...
J>
xxxxxx gestures at you.

A shifting, prismatic aura coalesces around you, then vanishes in a brilliant flash!

The raw elemental energy surrounding you takes on a watery look as it attempts to absorb the magic.
The glowing specks of energy surrounding you suddenly shoot off in all directions, then quickly fade away.
You notice that things have returned to their normal speed.
The layer of raw elemental energy surrounding you dissipates.
You feel less confident than before.
J>
The watery look of the raw elemental energy surrounding you fades.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2324
| author = DEANSMITH
| date = on 11/06/2016 02:31 AM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|A shifting, prismatic aura coalesces around you, then vanishes in a brilliant flash!
|-
|
|-
|The raw elemental energy surrounding you takes on a watery look as it attempts to absorb the magic.
|-
|The glowing specks of energy surrounding you suddenly shoot off in all directions, then quickly fade away.
|-
|You notice that things have returned to their normal speed.
|-
|The layer of raw elemental energy surrounding you dissipates.
|-
|You feel less confident than before.
|-
|J>
|-
|The watery look of the raw elemental energy surrounding you fades.
|}
This was a failed attempt at blocking the dispel, indicated by the messaging. It could probably be written to be a little more clear that it was a failure though.

I can understand why it the effect isn't guaranteed, but would it be possible to have failed absorption attempts NOT trigger the cooldown?
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2325
| author = SJOSEPH1
| date = on 11/06/2016 03:27 AM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
The issue was that the mage doing the dispelling was equal level and not a huge level gap. Also I'm yet to have this block a dispel from ANY monster.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2326
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 11/06/2016 11:57 AM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
''>You'll likely get 98% AS from Forward stance with 231 Fire vs 90% with 15. That's a big defensive boost for a minor offensive hit.''

I don't consider a 40 point offensive hit minor at all. That's half of a maximum enhancive boost negated right there just for defense.

''>I think the greatest difference in offensive usefulness for Fire Aspect will come when you're channeling in guarded.''

I agree with this, but this is currently of minimal value given 519 is almost equally ineffective even when channeled in offensive with 2 open-hands now vs. any other offensive method of attack.

''>tables''

I'm confused where in the fire lore setup, you have room for combat mastery?

''>It's not about the DS. It's about everything but the DS, and the stuff that really matters: evade, parry, (and block if you're a shield/staff post-cap build) maneuver defense, and CML defense all also get boosts in higher stances.''

In my view, if you're looking for offensive benefits in a less than offensive stance, you're doing it primarily for the DS benefits.

''>Rank 5 of Cunning Defense is 12 CM Points for +3 CML defense. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I'd be absolutely blown away if a 10% stance change didn't give a 1x CM postcap wizard more than 3 CML defense. (And the increase will only increase further with enhancives.)''

You can't get more offensive than offensive, so if you're in offensive and have +3 CML defense, you'd still be better off than being in a non-offensive stance, trying to get offensive abilities, and sacrificing those extra +3 CML defense points for Combat Mastery. In other words, those Rank 5 Cunning Defense points come from Cunning Defense or nothing at all. The only reason you'd be in a less than offensive stance and use Combat Mastery to achieve offensive stance benefits is because you want the DS.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2327
| author = GS4-COASE
| date = on 11/05/2016 01:37 AM PDT
| subject = Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
The major elemental spell 520 - Mage Armor has been released. This spell replaces the previous spell Stone Skin.

Mage Armor manipulates the elemental forces within a wizard's body, forming a layer of elemental energy that shifts with their movements. This self-cast spell provides additional protection from physical attacks in the form of critical padding.

The base amount of padding for native casters is somewhat at 20 Major Elemental ranks, increasing every 15 Major Elemental ranks to a max of heavy padding at 95 ranks.

Note: Non-native casters can only achieve light critical padding with this spell, and elemental aspects are not available to non-native casters.
Note: The critical padding provided by this spell and it's aspects stack with other forms of padding.
The armor can be further enhanced by focusing on specific elements to further shore up defenses via CAST <Element>. Focusing on an element will produce additional defenses based on lore training in the respective elemental lore.

Focusing on the Fire Aspect of this spell allows a mage to channel his defenses into stronger offensive attacks.
Focusing on the Water Aspect of this spell boosts the mage's defenses against dispel attacks.
Focusing on the Earth Aspect of this spell will shield the mage in a layer of rock when he becomes stunned.
Focusing on the Air Aspect of this spell will allow the mage to carry more.
Focusing on the Lightning Aspect of this spell will stun all enemies in the room for a short time when the mage becomes stunned.

More specific details can be found on the wiki at this link https://gswiki.play.net/Mage_Armor_(520)

Credit to goes GameMaster Konacon for working on the code for this release.

Viduus

(Reposting as an announcement)
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2331
| author = GIBESON1
| date = on 11/06/2016 06:19 AM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
So 520 is signature defensive spell, but its okay to allow 712 to be given out in black ora hearts?
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2333
| author = FIREPHOENIX
| date = on 11/06/2016 07:11 AM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
520 is straight up beast mode.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2334
| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 11/06/2016 07:35 AM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
The light crit padding for non-native casters seemed to be included as part of the spell for imbedding purposes. Non-native casters weren't getting anything close to what the full power of the spell is, just like non-native casters of Cloak of Shadows cannot chant retribution. This seems to be more of an appeasement gesture than a well thought-out change.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2336
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 11/06/2016 08:35 AM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|Keith/Brinret/Shiun
|-
|Well that sucks. The spell already has a significantly reduced effect for other classes. You basically just caved to a vocal minority of high level wizards who complain about every change and also have a huge amount of other professions spells available through items themselves.
|}

The decision to block 520 from imbedding was made before any post on this forum commented on it.

GameMaster Estild
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2340
| author = GS4-SLEKEN
| date = on 11/06/2016 09:06 AM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
Oookay.

Don't attack other posters, don't counter-attack, etc, etc.

Discuss the issues, not the posters.

Move on.

SGM Sleken
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2341
| author = TANDL
| date = on 11/06/2016 09:08 AM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
So when can we get a reduction of non-self cast power and/or availability to mobility, dauntless, heroism, prayer, and champions might?

We may as well leave the 1000s alone, since a person who follows you around everywhere without speaking or attacking, just mindlessly being a walking spell provider, is apparently not a bot so long as they never leave the group.

Tal, who despite it being physically impossible, hunts self spelled and solo anyway.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2343
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 11/06/2016 09:17 AM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
''>> So when can we get a reduction of non-self cast power and/or availability to mobility, dauntless, heroism, prayer, and champions might? ''

What about 503, 509, and 911 while we are at it as well?

I'm a bit surprised at the (over) reaction to 520 not being imbeddedible given how horrible the spell was before. I don't see it as taking anything away from anyone from what they had before and the new spell does address some actual issues within the wizard class.

If you feel there are similar issues within other professions that the new 520 addresses then you'd be better off having them addressed through your profession based spells vs. through 520 imbeds anyway.

-- Robert

A powerful whirlpool is suddenly overtaken by a windy vortex!
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2344
| author = VEYTHORNE
| date = on 11/06/2016 09:31 AM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
I'm trying to understand the upset about 520 going self-cast.

Is it because you wanted the light crit padding? Which is most likely 1 point of padding.


It's hard to deny that wizard spells aren't available to non-wizards. 503, 509, 911 are all easily shared. The only spell that cannot be put in an imbed is 913, and now 520. Most of the other self cast spells, 507, 508, and 905 are frequently sold off the shelf in unlimited quantity.

You never see 606, 613 or 617 being sold, or 618 for that matter, even though 618 is available from a ranger friend.

Looking at Ebon Gate, you could buy off the shelf: 501, 503, 507, 508, 509, 511, 512, 905, 911, and 916. That's a total of 10 wizard spells, sold off the shelf, in unlimited quantity. No other profession had so many of their spells available to other professions.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2345
| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 11/06/2016 09:34 AM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
''>I'm trying to understand the upset about 520 going self-cast.''

for me, it was a 20th level spell that used to be imbeddable, and now it's not. It takes away from imbedding and leads to all of the highly annoying "our spell" claims. As I said, the non-native caster light padding benefit looks like it was made specifically for imbedding, and I thought it was well designed for that intent.
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2346
| author = DOUG
| date = on 11/06/2016 09:36 AM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
So, I think I need some clarification.

The spell isn't able to be imbedded. Not unusual for a x20 spell.

I missed the memo on it being 'self-cast' (worlds apart from being imbedded, in my view). I hope that doesn't happen. And I have a simple reason why.

The name of this game at one time was interaction. I get that the consumer base is shifting, that some select players would rather interact amongst them(various)selves than others, and so on. But I'd hate to see the benefits of interacting go away. Leave the spell unimbeddable, but let's limit responses to the hue and cry to make things self-cast. It will be a very sad day when no profession can help another.

It would make the game much less fun for me.

Doug
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2347
| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 11/06/2016 09:39 AM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
''>I missed the memo on it being 'self-cast'''

the first paragraph:

"Mage Armor manipulates the elemental forces within a wizard's body, forming a layer of elemental energy that shifts with their movements. This self-cast spell provides additional protection from physical attacks in the form of critical padding."
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2348
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 11/06/2016 09:40 AM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
This has always been a self-cast spell from the original announcement, and as a level 20 spell, I'm not sure why anyone would ever have expected otherwise. Saying wizards can now no longer help another simply because only 2 of 12 of our core Major and Profession circle defensive/utility spells are no longer accessible to others is pure hyperbole.

What makes the game less fun for me is when all wizard characters are treated as mindless bots so wizards can no longer have anything unique or powerful because there are too many bots around. This is why we get the mediocre version of Enchant Item we're getting instead of something amazing like Ensorcell's active character setup.
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2349
| author = KITHUS
| date = on 11/06/2016 09:59 AM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|501, 503, 507, 508, 509, 511, 512, 905, 911, and 916. That's a total of 10 wizard spells,
|}

Seriously? Sleep and Cold Snap are offensive spells. Floating Disk is regularly available, as is invisibility. That's like clerics complaining about bravery being at EG. Beyond that you're complaining about Mass Blurs, a spell that is obviously intended to be shared. So really we're talking about 503, 507, 508, 509 and 905, 5 spells out of two spell circles and only one out of your profession circle. Meanwhile rangers had 601, 602, 603, 604 available at EG. Normally 606 is fairly readily available as well. That's all off a profession circle. Wizards aren't some abused puppies that have all their treats handed out to everyone. Stop acting like the 500s is your closed profession circle.

Keith/Brinret/Shiun

Keith is correct

Wyrom, APM

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Help%20for%20Players/Policy%20Discussions/view/246
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2350
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 11/06/2016 10:09 AM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
503, 507, 508, 509, 511, 513, 515, 905, 911, 919 are all other-cast or easily imbeddible and sold off the shelf at merchants on a regular basis. Bravery, meanwhile, is just about the only spell clerics share at merchants.

Complaining about 601 is the same as complaining about 911, when it's obvious that 611 is meant to be shared. So that's only 3 spells, and nobody really uses Skinning anyway who is a non-ranger.

606 has never been for sale except in one Premium festival shop and Duskruin. 613 has never been for sale, period.

All this disappointment comes about because of other professions constantly feeling entitled to use wizard characters as bots, when they are in fact, not entitled to having every spell a wizard possesses. Wizards don't go and complain in other profession folders that they can't get access to XYZ when new spells are released for them, so this overreaction is once again just jealousy over wizards finally getting a good thing. The same type of grass is always greener jealousy that led to wizards being over-nerfed in the first place, punishing only those who actually play wizard mains. All the bot abilities in those instances were, curiously, preserved.
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2351
| author = PFLATS
| date = on 11/06/2016 10:11 AM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
''>It would be helpful if whoever's editing the Wiki doesn't overwrite the accurate GM information with inaccurate data. The earth lore table, in particular, is completely incorrect.''

Anyone can update the wiki to fix it! If that's too much work, giving details about how it's wrong is a good first step to helping someone to fix it!

''>I have to say that after spending a good chunk of my day Friday struggling to put together a basic wiki page that I have a new appreciation for the work the authors do on it. It seems like a labor of love to keep it visually appealing, accurate, and consistent with the rest of the site. ''

Thanks! It does take a lot of work. I'm amazed VANKRASN39 does what she does.

''>I'll plan to review it once the work in progress is removed, so no need to panic over it changing.''

Good news: the WIP is gone!

If my fire lore estimates are wrong, can you say so? Especially if they're very wrong?

If you cannot give the actual values, that's fine. Just want to know if we're right or at least in the ballpark, because I imagine it's the weirdest part for people who are not mechanics junkies like me, and I'd like it to be as straightforward as possible.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2352
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 11/06/2016 10:25 AM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
''>giving details about how it's wrong is a good first step to helping someone to fix it!''

The entire earth lore table needs to be decreased by 1 point, or the 250 ranks ends in fantastical range, which exceeds what we were told about the upper end being phenomenal. Somewhat starts at 5 points, not a base of 6.

I have no clue if the fire lore values are correct, but my initial impression is there's no effective difference for most characters between 15 ranks of fire lore and 231, since one is unable to use partial stances without combat mastery. As a pure, I don't see a partial stance effect as worth wasting the 1x CM allocation wizards get either, when most wizards have to deal with disarm and are generally better served training in other CMAN abilities. One really has to sacrifice a lot to get what appears to be only a 5-10% increase in DS.

Since there has been no update on it yet, for what it's worth, the fire lore aspect appears to be providing full benefits even when a spell is not CHANNELed.
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2353
| author = AISEN
| date = on 11/06/2016 10:37 AM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
GS really just needs a full spell review aimed at balancing what should be signature and what shouldn't. DR did the same thing when they moved to Magic 3.0 (and continues to do so, based on profession confounds and new spells), and it's probably something that really needs to be done in GS, too. It's a time consuming process, but it's probably more important for game and profession balance than many seem to want to admit.
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2354
| author = DOUG
| date = on 11/06/2016 11:19 AM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
''>>the first paragraph: ''

Ahh, yep. Ok, missed it. Heh. Thanks, V.

Let me clarify my position -

Too many people are calling for restrictions and drawing back, across the forums and in multiple professions. Various justifications and counter-justifications are being floated. This represents, to me, one of the greatest travesties against the game that I've seen in some time. I am less concerned about the outcome of this singular spell than I am concerned about the posts here and in other profession folders about 'the way things should be' without regard to the game's interactive premise.

GMs - I like the spell, in case that hasn't been evident. Thank you. I recognize the challenge this will create longer term for development in other professions. My hat is off to you for taking this bold step.

Doug
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2355
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 11/06/2016 11:40 AM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
This full spell review and balancing was done in the move to GS4, which is when each profession was intended to only share a handful of spells but otherwise be fine self-spelled.

We need less reviewing and more fun, so I highly suggest if someone feels their own profession is lacking, to go advocate for positive development there.

I'm all for balanced spell sharing, as in group requirement the way 307/310 and Major Spiritual spells are handled, rather than bot ability "cast and run" that promotes nothing but the use of utility spell-up characters. Preventing unbalanced spell sharing has no relevance to the game's interactive premise.

Unbalanced spell sharing via other-cast 515 is why wizards are the ones to pay an excessively punitive nerf penalty for 515. The only ones who can afford to use 515 on cooldown without feeling any penalties are those sorcerer and cleric CS spell users who have very cheap, but lethal if used for rapid attrition, methods of killing.

Now we've moved to the expectation that everyone has every imbed on all the time, which is why combat quests and pay events have become ridiculous to the point where you can't survive the boss creature or finish at all if you aren't min-max enhanced and spell buffed. This shouldn't be the case, and in fact, event developers are doing everyone a disservice by treating outside buffs and enhancives as necessary and making combat quests and events excessively tedious or impossible for the pre-cap.

The very last thing I want as both a player of a wizard main and a player of non-wizard characters is to have my other characters be even more cripplingly dependent on wizard spell band-aids that are universally available to all, while wizards themselves are denied any further development because everyone can have all these things with no restriction as well. This is why Haste (506) was removed because NIR stated that other characters were forced to rely on wizard imbeds like candy. And yet, quickstrike abilities were granted to everyone.

The reality is every other profession has access to most of what a wizard has, while a wizard can access very little of what others have on a unique basis.
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2356
| author = PFLATS
| date = on 11/06/2016 11:46 AM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
''>The entire earth lore table needs to be decreased by 1 point, or the 250 ranks ends in fantastical range, which exceeds what we were told about the upper end being phenomenal. Somewhat starts at 5 points, not a base of 6.''

I see the issue and figured out how it snuck in. I'll put the fix in soon if you haven't already (or someone else hasn't done so).



''>there's no effective difference for most characters between 15 ranks of fire lore and 231''

You'll likely get 98% AS from Forward stance with 231 Fire vs 90% with 15. That's a big defensive boost for a minor offensive hit.

I think the greatest difference in offensive usefulness for Fire Aspect will come when you're channeling in guarded.

''> since one is unable to use partial stances without combat mastery. As a pure, I don't see a partial stance effect as worth wasting the 1x CM allocation wizards get either, when most wizards have to deal with disarm and are generally better served training in other CMAN abilities. ''

I'm the one who added the combat mastery note, not a GM. I mostly put it there because it's the first time I might actually advocate training in it.

As it stands, non-warmage wizards probably spend their 101 CM Points as:
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|I hate disarm:
|-
|5 ranks disarm (60 CMP, +60(?) disarm defense)
|-
|5 ranks cunning defense (40 CMP, +15 general CM defense)
|-
|1 point left over
|}

{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|I hate disarm but also hate bandits and like optimizing my points:
|-
|5 ranks disarm (60 CMP, +60? disarm defense)
|-
|4 ranks cunning defense (40 CMP, +12 general CM defense)
|-
|1 rank feint (4 CMP, +15 feint defense)
|-
|1 rank subdual strike (4 CMP, +15 sstrike defense)
|-
|5 point left over for +2 DS or dirtkick or something
|}

{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|More Defense:
|-
|5 ranks disarm (60 CMP, +60? disarm defense)
|-
|3 ranks cunning defense (18 CMP, +9 general CM defense)
|-
|2 ranks feint (10 CMP, +30 feint defense)
|-
|2 ranks subdual strike (10 CMP, +30 sstrike defense)
|-
|3 points left over
|}

{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|I really don't like disarm but try to avoid it:
|-
|4 ranks disarm (40 CMP, +50? disarm defense)
|-
|5 ranks cunning defense (40 CMP, +15 general CM defense)
|-
|2 ranks feint (10 CMP, +30 feint defense)
|-
|2 ranks subdual strike (10 CMP, +30 sstrike defense)
|-
|3 points left over
|}

I would suggest alternate allocations for wizards who plan to use Fire Aspect and have either no fire lore but still want full offensive power or over 91 ranks:
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|Fire Armor Anti-Disarm:
|-
|5 ranks disarm (60 CMP, +60? disarm defense)
|-
|4 ranks cunning defense (28 CMP, +12 general CM defense)
|-
|1 rank combat mastery (4 CMP, 10% stance adjustment)
|-
|---AND---
|-
|1 rank feint (4 CMP, +15 feint defense)
|-
|1 rank subdual strike (4 CMP, +15 sstrike defense)
|-
|---OR---
|-
|2 ranks combat mastery (8 CMP, 5% stance adjustment)
|-
|1 point left over
|}

{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|Fire Armor Rift/Sanctum/Reim/Bandits/Warcamps
|-
|4 ranks disarm (40 CMP, +50? disarm defense)
|-
|4 ranks cunning defense (28 CMP, +12 general CM defense)
|-
|2 ranks subdual strike (10 CMP, +30 sstrike defense)
|-
|1 rank combat mastery (4 CMP, 10% stance adjustment)
|-
|1 rank feint (4 CMP, +15 feint defense)
|-
|---AND---
|-
|15 points left over to spend between:
|-
|
|-
|2 ranks combat mastery (8 CMP, 5% stance adjustment)
|-
|2 ranks feint (6 CMP, additional +15 feint defense)
|-
|5 ranks cunning defense (12 CMP, additional +3 general CM defense)
|-
|1/2 ranks dirtkick (4/10 CMP, +15/+30 dirtkick defense, kick dirt in the eyes of those people you hate)
|-
|1/2 ranks combat movement (4/10 CMP, +2/+4 DS)
|-
|1 rank Side-by-Side (14 CMP counting 10 CMP combat movement pre-req, +4 DS and more AS/DS when grouped.)
|}

Why?

''>One really has to sacrifice a lot to get what appears to be only a 5-10% increase in DS.''

It's not about the DS. It's about everything but the DS, and the stuff that really matters: evade, parry, (and block if you're a shield/staff post-cap build) maneuver defense, and CML defense all also get boosts in higher stances.

Rank 5 of Cunning Defense is 12 CM Points for +3 CML defense. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I'd be absolutely blown away if a 10% stance change didn't give a 1x CM postcap wizard more than 3 CML defense. (And the increase will only increase further with enhancives.)
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2358
| author = KITHUS
| date = on 11/06/2016 12:00 PM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|We need less reviewing and more fun
|}

But DO NOT imbed our spells!

{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|so I highly suggest if someone feels their own profession is lacking, to go advocate for positive development there.
|}

This isn't a matter of someone else's profession lacking. It's other wizards who enjoyed having the ability to imbed something new for others. That said as a ranger I can say I don't feel there's any point in discussing anything in the ranger folder. No one in dev seems to read there and even if they do they've made it pretty clear rangers are never going to get any work.

Keith/Brinret/Shiun

Keith is correct

Wyrom, APM

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Help%20for%20Players/Policy%20Discussions/view/246
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2359
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 11/06/2016 12:14 PM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
Non-wizards have lost nothing from this release or subsequent update. They never used 520 imbeds before to begin with because StoneSkin was garbage. The only thing prevented here is one more OP avenue of unbalanced spell sharing that WOULD be compensated for in either hunting ground design or lack of positive development for other professions in the future if they have this new crutch to rely upon.

The point of profession development should always be to support the playing of the profession as an actual standalone character rather than primarily to be used as a utility bot. This was stated with the 319 change, and I welcome this stance when applied to wizards as well. This is not new. This is, in fact, gamewide precedent for all other professions.
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2360
| author = PFLATS
| date = on 11/06/2016 01:32 PM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
I am convinced you have no idea what you're talking about or are being deliberately obtuse. If I didn't think these responses also helped other players, I'd have stopped making them by now.

''>I don't consider a 40 point offensive hit minor at all. That's half of a maximum enhancive boost negated right there just for defense.''

The only way you're going to see "a 40 point offensive hit" from 98% AS vs 100% AS is if you have 2000 AS. If you have 2000 AS, you can spare 40.

''>I'm confused where in the fire lore setup, you have room for combat mastery?''

The numbers are there. They all add up to 101. You replied within 9 minutes of a post that I spent quite some time writing and working out the numbers for; take a little longer to read them over more closely. If I made a math mistake, please point it out and I'll fix it.

''>You can't get more offensive than offensive, so if you're in offensive and have +3 CML defense, you'd still be better off than being in a non-offensive stance, trying to get offensive abilities, and sacrificing those extra +3 CML defense points for Combat Mastery. In other words, those Rank 5 Cunning Defense points come from Cunning Defense or nothing at all. The only reason you'd be in a less than offensive stance and use Combat Mastery to achieve offensive stance benefits is because you want the DS.''

Fire Aspect is not an offensive ability. Fire Aspect is a defensive ability, just like every other Aspect of Mage Armor. It lets you increase your stance with fewer offensive penalties. If that's not what you want, then don't use it. If you're running Fire Aspect, you shouldn't be in offensive stance. Fire Aspect has literally no benefit in offensive stance.

In offensive stance, you will never have more CML defense than what 5 ranks of cdef will give you. But you will have more CML defense in a lower stance. Plus the DS. Plus the evade/block/parry. Plus general maneuver defense.

I'm not an expert on the CML formula; I haven't kept up with the PC thread researching it. There's a very good chance that using Combat Mastery to go from 0% stance to 10% stance (no lore full offense) or 20% to 30% (120+ fire lore full offense) will give more than 3 CML defense. If it's exactly 3 defense, then dropping rank 5 of cdef for 1 rank of cmastery will give you the exact same defense with 8 points to spare.
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2361
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 11/06/2016 01:51 PM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
''>The only way you're going to see "a 40 point offensive hit" from 98% AS vs 100% AS is if you have 2000 AS. If you have 2000 AS, you can spare 40.''

I'm talking about 90% AS vs. 98% AS, since my entire discussion point began about little to no difference between 15 ranks of fire lore and 231 ranks. You might try reading your own quote before insulting people:

''>You'll likely get 98% AS from Forward stance with 231 Fire vs 90% with 15. That's a big defensive boost for a minor offensive hit.''
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2363
| author = KITHUS
| date = on 11/06/2016 02:03 PM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|''>The only way you're going to see "a 40 point offensive hit" from 98% AS vs 100% AS is if you have 2000 AS. If you have 2000 AS, you can spare 40.''
|-
|
|-
|I'm talking about 90% AS vs. 98% AS, since my entire discussion point began about little to no difference between 15 ranks of fire lore and 231 ranks. You might try reading your own quote before insulting people:
|}

No one insulted you. They pointed out a potential inaccuracy in your math. Disagreeing with you is not an insult. Telling you what we think about you is.

Keith/Brinret/Shiun

Keith is correct

Wyrom, APM

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Help%20for%20Players/Policy%20Discussions/view/246
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2364
| author = ASHRAAM
| date = on 11/06/2016 04:43 PM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
Since the spell is now "limited release", is it possible for you to remove the "non-native" disadvantage to using the spell. If you release this spell in some "God Auction", it would be a worthless item.

1. The spell used with a magic item cannot gain the elemental lore benefits
2. The spell used with a magic item cannot gain the MjE ranks benefits

Therefore - Light Crit Padding is not worth any value to other professions in the form of a magic item that is "limited release". Please remove that limitation, and allow it to be used with the Somewhat Padding Level that is defaulted with the item.
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2366
| author = PFLATS
| date = on 11/06/2016 07:02 PM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
There was a post elsewhere about Illoke dispel ignoring 1701, so I imagine it probably needs to be looked at in general.
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2367
| author = SJOSEPH
| date = on 11/06/2016 07:36 PM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
Ok so focused 520 on Water 70 ranks of water lore with this mage


''>stance def''
You are now in a defensive stance.
''>e''
[Thanatoph Bowels, Cavern]
Erosion and time have formed a tall earthen cliff, the lake below still visible from this vantage. Several crushed pieces of stone lie scattered about the ground, most no bigger than a pebble. You also see an Illoke elder and a wide ledge.
Obvious exits: south, west

''>''
Your disk arrives, following you dutifully.
''>''
An Illoke elder summons the wrath of his god as he gestures at you!
Your connection to the elemental realm falters!
You feel your extra strength departing.
The bright luminescence fades from around you.
The silvery luminescence fades from around you.
You feel less confident than before.



520 didn't attempt to block it no fail message.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2368
| author = GS4-VIDUUS
| date = on 11/06/2016 12:12 PM PST
| subject = Mage Armor Mana Costs and Spell messages
}}
<br>
The following was an oversight on my part in breaking down the initial details of the spell. The mana costs for Mage Armor work a bit differently than traditional spells so I created this post to break down those costs.

Previously when we associated a lore effect to a spell you had to have a minimum number of ranks in any given lore to trigger the effects, usually around 20 ranks. You guys have explained in great detail how much you loved that setup and splitting your lores 4 ways, so with mage armor we took a different approach. You can access all lore benefits of the spell regardless of lore training, but if you're under trained in a lore (see under 20 ranks) and aren't using an armor of your attunement, then you will be penalized and have to pay additional mana. Every rank below 20 that you are will cost an additional 4 mana when casting the spell, though this mana penalty is capped at 99 mana.

Some of you have been seeing a cost of 99 mana for this spell, this penalty is why. Do consider before lighting up those torches that the alternative would be a hard lockout of aspects for which you are under trained, so hopefully this system is more palatable.

On spell messaging, you will only see the aspect message "You shift the focus of the surrounding energies into xxxx" when first casting the spell and no previous 520 was on you, or when switching from one aspect to another.

Viduus
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2369
| author = TANDL
| date = on 11/06/2016 12:30 PM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor Mana Costs and Spell messages
}}
<br>
Is there any way we can add something to this cost system, such as an additional cap to a certain percentage (even 100%) of a characters max mana pool or a spell confirm requirement of some sort?

Having a level 20 character get a new fancy spell, cast it, and completely destroy their nerves seems a bit much. Especially when no other spell in GS can realistically cost more than pure's max mana when they first gain the ability to cast it.

Tal.
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2370
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 11/06/2016 12:36 PM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor Mana Costs and Spell messages
}}
<br>
I don't love it, but I'm fine with this mana cost setup as long as there can be a check set such that if you don't have sufficient mana to cast the spell, you would get messaging to that effect similar to the check for 950 and 550. I say this only because I'm sure you're well aware that have -50 or more mana results in instant death, which seems excessively severe for a possible mistake.

This minimum check is also in place for quickstrike uses, so I don't see this as being OP.
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2371
| author = VEYTHORNE
| date = on 11/06/2016 01:02 PM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor Mana Costs and Spell messages
}}
<br>
Please tell us what goes into the success rate for 520/water.
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2372
| author = PFLATS
| date = on 11/06/2016 01:11 PM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor Mana Costs and Spell messages
}}
<br>
99 mana for a level 20 character casting a level 20 spell is insane. They literally cannot have that much mana.

''>Do consider before lighting up those torches that the alternative would be a hard lockout of aspects for which you are under trained, so hopefully this system is more palatable.''

This is a false dichotomy. There are plenty of alternatives:

You can cast the aspects you're undertrained just fine! The game keeps working!

You can cast the aspects you're undertrained for, but it's an additional 4 mana per, capped at triple the cost, 60 mana. That's still a ton of mana!

You can cast the aspects you're undertrained for, but it's an additional 2 mana per.

etc.

''>Every rank below 20 that you are will cost an additional 4 mana when casting the spell, though this mana penalty is capped at 99 mana.''

Uh, 20 base cost + 20 ranks * 4 mana/rank = 100 max mana. A 99 mana cap is not exactly helping anything.

The mana penalty has exactly two effects, one major, one specific.

1. Major: It takes way longer for low-level wizards to spell up in between hunts and after dying. They might need an empath's help to do so (?!).

2. Minor: If you get dispelled in the field or want to change aspects in the field, it costs more mana to recast.
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2373
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 11/06/2016 01:15 PM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor Mana Costs and Spell messages
}}
<br>
''>99 mana for a level 20 character casting a level 20 spell is insane. They literally cannot have that much mana.''

I'd agree except a level 20 character does not need to be casting all aspects. The penalty only applies if you have no lore AND you aren't attuned. You can still cast your attuned element's armor aspect for the 20 mana cost.
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2375
| author = ALUVIUS
| date = on 11/06/2016 03:23 PM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor Mana Costs and Spell messages
}}
<br>
I don't have a torch to light, in fact I'd suggest you look at revising several of the lore updated spells to work this way. Either penalize non attuned/under trained but still allow the wizard to use that aspect OR perhaps just give an increased bonus to those with attunement/training over a threshhold.

I would stil be happy if its the penalization route just fyi. :)

My point is that the implementation of 520 is just about perfect for the ways lore should work with wizards and our 4 way split/attunements with wildly divergent combat utility for some paths.


Thanks for the clarification!
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2376
| author = TIGGEREYE
| date = on 11/06/2016 03:30 PM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor Mana Costs and Spell messages
}}
<br>
''>>My point is that the implementation of 520 is just about perfect for the ways lore should work with wizards and our 4 way split/attunements with wildly divergent combat utility for some paths.<

+1! Thank you for this spell and how it works!

''___________________________________''

The flamepoint sand kitten hisses at a patchwork flesh monstrosity.
... 9 points of damage!
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2377
| author = KRAKII
| date = on 11/07/2016 06:28 AM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor Mana Costs and Spell messages
}}
<br>
'' -- Viduus''

That's a pretty serious oversight, neh?

.

.

"if you're under trained in a lore (see under 20 ranks) and aren't using an armor of your attunement" -- ibid

Do I correctly understand from your post, that if you are attuned to an element in which you have fewer than 20 ranks, you do ''NOT'' pay the extra 4 mana per rank?

Since 'mana spellup' is 'free' casting, do you get around the surcharge this way, too?
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2378
| author = KRAKII
| date = on 11/07/2016 06:30 AM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor Mana Costs and Spell messages
}}
<br>
"They literally cannot have that much mana." -- PFlats

Doch.

At last, a use for those alchemical "+50 max mana" potions!
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2379
| author = KANDOR
| date = on 11/07/2016 07:10 AM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor Mana Costs and Spell messages
}}
<br>
I really like the implementation of this spell but I wish there was some other effect besides variable mana cost. There seems to be something flawed in the implementation of variable mana costs in this game that I can't put my finger on. I think it's because there is a penalty for overcasting, which is unusual in other games. Variable mana as it exists today seems to penalize players for doing nothing wrong. At best it's a lesson in diligence.
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2380
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 11/07/2016 09:07 AM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
At first:

Wizards: "520 shouldn't be imbeddable!"
People: "lol y not it's only light padding!"

Now:

People: "omg 520 should be imbeddible!"
Wizards: "lol y it's only light padding!"


Striking resemblance to this year's election cycle.


~ Methais
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2381
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 11/07/2016 09:16 AM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
''>The name of this game at one time was interaction. I get that the consumer base is shifting, that some select players would rather interact amongst them(various)selves than others, and so on. But I'd hate to see the benefits of interacting go away. Leave the spell unimbeddable, but let's limit responses to the hue and cry to make things self-cast. It will be a very sad day when no profession can help another.''

''>It would make the game much less fun for me.''

Easy fix: Make the spell like 310 to where others benefit from it while grouped with the wizard.

Now you have interaction without being plagued with more "Almost all of your spells are available to everyone else but hardly anyone else's spells are available to you." stuff, and if someone's wizard bot isn't leveled up with their main, they're not gonna be tagging along.

I don't really care one way or another about this whole deal, but I do think it's kind of stupid how so many other spells aren't nearly as easily available (or available at all) to wizards as wizard spells are so easily available to everyone else.

''>Seriously? Sleep and Cold Snap are offensive spells. Floating Disk is regularly available, as is invisibility. That's like clerics complaining about bravery being at EG.''

Swap bravery for heroism and that would be a more apples to apples comparison. Bravery is one of the few readily available MjS spells, as it's sold in the cleric shop even. When was the last time you saw a Heroism item sold off the shelf? Mangled steel spoons from the 90s?

On a somewhat contradictory note, I probably wouldn't mind this imbalance of spell availability as much if Charge Item wasn't so inferior to Scroll Infusion.

~ Methais
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<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2382
| author = LORDSOPH
| date = on 11/08/2016 06:08 AM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
Had a strange bug (I think) occur with water focused mage armor. Here is the messaging. The seer phased in, dispelled and phased back out instantaneously as I was obviously not casting at it due to the phasing (I was actually targeting a war griffin). Apparently the mage armor did at least attempt to block the dispel. Can we get some sort of information regarding the formula whether a dispel is blocked?

An Ithzir seer fades into view!
An Ithzir seer suddenly opens his eyes and stares directly at you!

A pale, flickering nimbus coalesces around you, then vanishes in a brilliant flash!

Just as you , the Ithzir seer shimmers and fades away, leaving you gesturing at nothingness!
The raw elemental energy surrounding you takes on a watery look as it attempts to absorb the magic.
The powerful look leaves you.
The deep blue glow leaves you.
The light blue glow leaves you.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2383
| author = GS4-VIDUUS
| date = on 11/08/2016 08:50 AM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
An Ithzir seer fades into view!
An Ithzir seer suddenly opens his eyes and stares directly at you!

A pale, flickering nimbus coalesces around you, then vanishes in a brilliant flash!

Just as you , the Ithzir seer shimmers and fades away, leaving you gesturing at nothingness!
The raw elemental energy surrounding you takes on a watery look as it attempts to absorb the magic.
The powerful look leaves you.
The deep blue glow leaves you.
The light blue glow leaves you.



I'll see what I can do on this.

Viduus
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2384
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 11/08/2016 10:04 AM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
It seems the Emperor broke my mage armor, and it shattered like it was still the useless StoneSkin. After the fight, I noticed my mage armor was gone from my spell active list. However, I also noticed that when I cast 520 again, it did not say that this was the first time I'm activating this aspect.

''>The Royal Emperor slings an embossed hoarbeam shield off from over his shoulder.''
The Royal Emperor thrusts with a sleek glaes estoc at you!
AS: +588 vs DS: +585 with AvD: +37 + d100 roll: +81 = +121
A layer of shifting stone absorbs 1 points of damage, then shatters!
... and hits for 21 points of damage!
Minor puncture to the back.

''>spell active''
You currently have the following active spells:
Elemental Defense I ................ 3:27:26
Elemental Defense II ............... 3:27:26
Elemental Defense III .............. 3:27:26
Elemental Targeting ................ 3:27:26
Elemental Barrier .................. 1:16:57
Thurfel's Ward ..................... 3:27:26
Elemental Deflection ............... 3:27:26
Elemental Bias ..................... 3:27:26
Strength ........................... 3:27:26
Elemental Focus .................... 3:27:26
Haste .............................. 3:27:26
Temporal Reversion ................. 3:27:26

''>pre 520''
You recite a series of mystical phrases while raising your hands, invoking Mage Armor...
Your spell is ready.
J>cast earth
You gesture.
A layer of raw elemental energy forms around you.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2385
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 11/08/2016 10:10 AM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
I'm also no longer getting the earth aspect messaging, so it doesn't seem to be activating at all any more upon stuns:

''>search box''
You tentatively open the blackened box.
You search around the inside of the blackened box, disturbing some markings!
... 25 points of damage!
Heavy jolt to chest causes solar plexus to explode. Remarkable display of spraying blood.
You are stunned for 5 rounds!
The blackened box vanishes in a cloud of ethereal light.
You don't find anything useful.

''>A ghostly marauder darts behind you quickly and tries to hamstring you with his rapier!''
[Roll result: 203 (open d100: 89)]
With a vicious strike the ghostly marauder slashes at your right hamstring!
... 30 points of damage!
You fall to the ground grasping your mangled right leg!
You are stunned!
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2386
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 11/08/2016 10:52 AM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
There's some kind of typo in the first messaging:

''>inc 904''
Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Acid...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an ethereal squire.
You hurl a hissing stream of acid at an ethereal squire!
Minor Acid
AS: +550 vs DS: +489 with AvD: +36 + d100 roll: +77 = +174
A hit!
--you blink as you realize that what you thought you saw didn't actually happen.
You hurl a hissing stream of acid at an ethereal squire!
The ethereal squire deflects your bolt with his staff!
You sense a sudden, sharp fluctuation in the temporal field surrounding an ethereal squire.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

The earth aspect seems to be activating on creatures:

''>inc 904''
Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Acid...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an ethereal squire.
You hurl a hissing stream of acid at an ethereal squire!
an ethereal squire's exterior hardens for a moment and softens the attack!
AS: +552 vs DS: +365 with AvD: +36 + d100 roll: +28 = +251
... and hit for 83 points of damage!
Attack whistles right through the chest!
It's like fighting fog!
Some of the acid sticks to an ethereal squire and continues to bubble away!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2387
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 11/08/2016 11:12 AM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|LADYFLEUR
|-
|The earth aspect seems to be activating on creatures:
|-
|''>inc 904''
|-
|Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Acid...
|-
|Your spell is ready.
|-
|You gesture at an ethereal squire.
|-
|You hurl a hissing stream of acid at an ethereal squire!
|-
|an ethereal squire's exterior hardens for a moment and softens the attack!
|-
|AS: +552 vs DS: +365 with AvD: +36 + d100 roll: +28 = +251
|-
|... and hit for 83 points of damage!
|-
|Attack whistles right through the chest!
|-
|It's like fighting fog!
|-
|Some of the acid sticks to an ethereal squire and continues to bubble away!
|-
|Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
|}

That's Elemental Barrier's (430) lore benefit.

GameMaster Estild
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2388
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 11/09/2016 11:11 AM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
The earth aspect still isn't working at all like before:

''>search box''
You tentatively open the blackened box.
You search around the inside of the blackened box, but end up triggering a pressure plate!
... 30 points of damage!
Strong slash to your right leg!
Muscles exposed!
Not a pretty sight.
You are knocked to the ground!
You are stunned for 6 rounds!
The blackened box vanishes in a cloud of ethereal light.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2389
| author = GS4-VIDUUS
| date = on 11/09/2016 04:43 PM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
The earth aspect still isn't working at all like before:

''>search box''
You tentatively open the blackened box.
You search around the inside of the blackened box, but end up triggering a pressure plate!
... 30 points of damage!
Strong slash to your right leg!
Muscles exposed!
Not a pretty sight.
You are knocked to the ground!
You are stunned for 6 rounds!
The blackened box vanishes in a cloud of ethereal light.



I'm not seeing the issue in your clip. The earth aspect wouldn't kick in at all on the above clip. The earth aspect doesn't kick in until you're stunned, which happens after the damage above. Though, it's been a long week so I could be missing something, what's the issue?

Viduus
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2390
| author = DEANSMITH
| date = on 11/14/2016 09:46 AM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
I know this bug/feature was brought up before but I do not recall seeing any official word on it...

The Fire Lore benefit is currently working for spells using CAST and EVOKE (not CHANNEL only like was originally stated) is this intended?
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2391
| author = GS4-VIDUUS
| date = on 11/15/2016 10:31 AM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
The Fire Lore benefit is currently working for spells using CAST and EVOKE (not CHANNEL only like was originally stated) is this intended?



Not intended. I've a batch of bug fixes coming up that will address it.

Viduus
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2392
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 11/21/2016 07:33 PM PST
| subject = Rapid Fire (515) Cooldown
}}
<br>
Rapid Fire's (515) cooldown formula has been updated to reduce the 90 second cooldown by 1 second per 2.2 ranks of Elemental Mana Control. So at 100 ranks of EMC, the cooldown is only 45 seconds. At 200 ranks, there is no cooldown.

GameMaster Estild
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2393
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 11/21/2016 08:43 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Cooldown
}}
<br>
Long overdue. Thank you very much. Can this be refreshed before dropping?
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2394
| author = CANDIDE
| date = on 11/21/2016 09:21 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Cooldown
}}
<br>
I feel like this much sought after change deserves our thanks. I will consider it an early Festivus present. Thank you.

GBB
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2395
| author = DOUG
| date = on 11/21/2016 10:10 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Cooldown
}}
<br>
Just . . . wow!

Thanks, Estild!

Doug
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2396
| author = KITHUS
| date = on 11/22/2016 02:49 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Cooldown
}}
<br>
Very nice Estild. After all the negativity we've seen over some of these changes I hope we see a lot of wizards giving thanks for this one.

Keith/Brinret/Shiun

Keith is correct

Wyrom, APM

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Help%20for%20Players/Policy%20Discussions/view/246
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2397
| author = RROY
| date = on 11/22/2016 04:17 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Cooldown
}}
<br>
Great change thanks !

Just an elf about town...
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2398
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 11/22/2016 08:19 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Cooldown
}}
<br>
Awesome fix, thank you tons.

~ Methais
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2399
| author = RAGGLER
| date = on 11/22/2016 09:16 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Cooldown
}}
<br>
As someone who was hugely and loudly against the cooldown on 515, I'll be man enough to admit that I came to tolerate it over the last year. It actually did change up my hunting style during the cooldowns to allow for a more varied hunt. However, the squeaky wheel gets the grease, and we've definitely been greased, so a huge thank you for listening to the majority and making this change.

Isle Snack Muncher
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2400
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 11/22/2016 10:05 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Cooldown
}}
<br>
''> As someone who was hugely and loudly against the cooldown on 515, I'll be man enough to admit that I came to tolerate it over the last year. It actually did change up my hunting style during the cooldowns to allow for a more varied hunt.''

If you still want a cooldown, all you have to do is have less than 200 ranks of EMC! ;)

~ Konacon
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2401
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 11/22/2016 12:39 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Cooldown
}}
<br>
''> Long overdue. Thank you very much. Can this be refreshed before dropping?''

It can now!

515 is now refreshable and the cooldown is calculated when the spell is cast, rather than when it ends. If you have less than 200 ranks of Elemental Mana Control, refreshing 515 will incur the +5 additional mana penalty. If you have at least 200 ranks of EMC, 515 should be refreshable without any penalties now.

Have fun!

~ Konacon
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2402
| author = KRAKII
| date = on 11/22/2016 12:43 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Cooldown
}}
<br>
One (or more) of these GM posts is well worth having up in the overall 'Announcements' category.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2403
| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 11/22/2016 01:09 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Cooldown
}}
<br>
''>515 is now refreshable and the cooldown is calculated when the spell is cast, rather than when it ends. If you have less than 200 ranks of Elemental Mana Control, refreshing 515 will incur the +5 additional mana penalty. If you have at least 200 ranks of EMC, 515 should be refreshable without any penalties now.''

so now the 3 second cooldown is the max benefit at 192 ranks to account for 515 cast rt?
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2404
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 11/22/2016 01:14 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Cooldown
}}
<br>
''> so now the 3 second cooldown is the max benefit at 192 ranks to account for 515 cast rt?''

Sorry, I think I got confused somewhere... 192 is the max benefit?

~ Konacon
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2405
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 11/22/2016 01:15 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Cooldown
}}
<br>
Thanks again, Konacon! Great news!
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2406
| author = VANKRASN39
| date = on 11/22/2016 01:24 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Cooldown
}}
<br>
''>Sorry, I think I got confused somewhere... 192 is the max benefit?''


that's what I'd like to confirm. With the initial cast of 515 you still have 3 sec cast RT, and a 3 seconds cooldown would be 192 ranks to cast again immediately after the cast RT (why you would want to, I don't know)
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2407
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 11/22/2016 01:26 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Cooldown
}}
<br>
''>so now the 3 second cooldown is the max benefit at 192 ranks to account for 515 cast rt?''

Cast RT is cast RT, not a cooldown. Refreshing without 200 ranks of EMC results in the cooldown with +5 mana penalty applied to all spells cast under the effect of 515.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2408
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 11/22/2016 01:52 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Cooldown
}}
<br>
To go into more detail (I hope this helps):

The cooldown is the same as before, but 60 seconds longer to account for the duration of 515 itself since it is calculated and applied when the spell is cast. The net result is the same as before with the old formula, but now refreshing 515 is allowed. The only special rule here is that if the cooldown would be 60 seconds or less (The duration of 515, 200 ranks of EMC), no cooldown is applied at all since it would only be active during 515 anyways. This allows casters with 200 ranks of EMC to refresh it without any penalty.

~ Konacon
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2409
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 11/23/2016 05:26 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Cooldown
}}
<br>
''>One (or more) of these GM posts is well worth having up in the overall 'Announcements' category.''

I think a real life parade is in order as well.

Who's gonna ride on the Konacon float?

~ Methais
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2410
| author = SOURCE
| date = on 11/26/2016 10:09 PM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
Is this still supposed to be happening?

... and hit for 61 points of damage!
Well aimed strike shatters bone in right arm!

Necrotic energy from your gornar tanto overflows into you!

You feel energized!

The stones shifting around a Grimswarm orc adept suddenly release a blast of vibrating energy at you!

... 30 points of damage!
Hard strike to your left leg breaking tendons and bone!
You are knocked to the ground!
You are stunned for 6 rounds!
You try to return to the shadows, but find yourself unable to do so!
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2411
| author = PFLATS
| date = on 11/27/2016 01:17 PM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
''>The Fire Lore benefit is currently working for spells using CAST and EVOKE (not CHANNEL only like was originally stated) is this intended?''

''> Not intended. I've a batch of bug fixes coming up that will address it.''

As I found out from both casting the wrong armor and messing up my stance, the bonus also is working for FIRE, so I assume ATTACK will trigger it too.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2413
| author = STAVMAN
| date = on 12/01/2016 06:05 AM PST
| subject = Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!
}}
<br>
I have seen the critters in the Labyrinth in illi have a similar retaliatory attach...seems some Critters get 520 as well...lol
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2414
| author = EARTHDIVER
| date = on 12/06/2016 05:01 PM PST
| subject = Mana Leech timer and Decay
}}
<br>
Shouldn't this be reset after a decay?

''>spell active''
You currently have the following active spells:
Mana Leech Recovery ................ 0:03:14
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2415
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 12/15/2016 07:12 AM PST
| subject = 512 Fire Flare - Can We Get Rid Of It?
}}
<br>
Any chance we can get rid of this fire flare/removal of 512 when casting fire on a target that's been hit with 512?

It's very counter productive and the flare itself is meh and overall serves no purpose but to be annoying.

~ Methais
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2416
| author = GAROFALOA
| date = on 12/18/2016 10:35 AM PST
| subject = Re: 512 Fire Flare - Can We Get Rid Of It?
}}
<br>
Quit volunteering us for nerfs, methais!

























I agree with Methais.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2417
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 12/18/2016 09:41 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapid Fire (515) Cooldown
}}
<br>
I'm not sure if this happened because Rapid Fire was cast while the character was still in Cast RT, but the first cast after Rapid Fire was applied still takes the full 3 seconds.

''>inc 1612''
You trace a simple symbol as you reverently call on your patron in the prayer for Champion's Might...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture.
A dim celadon wisp flares briefly about each of your hands, trailing soft pulses of residual light as they move.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
s>XXX just arrived.
s>XXX recites a series of mystical phrases while raising her hands...
s>XXX gestures at you.
You feel the magic surge through you.
s>inc 1612
You trace a simple symbol as you reverently call on your patron in the prayer for Champion's Might...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture.
A dim celadon wisp flares briefly about each of your hands, trailing soft pulses of residual light as they move.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>inc 1612''
You trace a simple symbol as you reverently call on your patron in the prayer for Champion's Might...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture.
A dim celadon wisp flares briefly about each of your hands, trailing soft pulses of residual light as they move.
Cast Roundtime 1 Second.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2418
| author = DRAFIX
| date = on 12/19/2016 08:24 PM PST
| subject = Re: 512 Fire Flare - Can We Get Rid Of It?
}}
<br>
thirded
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2419
| author = DRAFIX
| date = on 12/19/2016 08:24 PM PST
| subject = Re: Mana Leech timer and Decay
}}
<br>
Just dying doesn't reset that. Several spells are like that, as long as its a negative effect, death doesn't remove it.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2420
| author = DRAFIX
| date = on 12/19/2016 09:26 PM PST
| subject = Re: 550 w/another spell prepped
}}
<br>
Is this still an issue?

Will it be fixed if it is?

And .. this is terrible.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2423
| author = DRAFIX
| date = on 12/20/2016 01:08 AM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|I don't think 519 is acceptable to be weaker due to 516 at all. I think 519 costly slightly more mana than 317 or 1115 is acceptable due to 516. Why would it not be? If a profession has more mana available, it stands to reason they can spend more mana. I don't object to making a case of 240 vs 516's mana benefits though.
|-
|- Estild
|}


In that case, let me propose a solution in the reverse direction whilst continuing on this line of logic.
If 516 provides mana benefits which results in having all spells cost more.. then please remove the spell and reduce the cost or raise the efficiency of all our spells that factor 516's 'benefit.'
There are plenty of other ways to get mana that doesn't require 516. If 516's potential to double my mana pool is factored into every spell, then removing the spell should effectively double the DF of all my spells to compensate, no?

Effectively, 516 adds no benefit if it is factored into all the other spells. Any benefit received from 516 will just either A) increase the cost of spells or B) decrease the effectiveness of the spell to compensate.

In the same train of thought, 425 adds no benefit as all critters have their DS increased to account for the +50 AS boost from 425. Try hunting without 425 and see if you can hit anything like-level at around level 60+.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2424
| author = AMCPENS
| date = on 12/20/2016 05:41 AM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
<br>
"In the same train of thought, 425 adds no benefit as all critters have their DS increased to account for the +50 AS boost from 425. Try hunting without 425 and see if you can hit anything like-level at around level 60+."

Yep. And the net benefit of critters being set up to require those buff spells to hit them, is that we spend more mana/time between hunts to keep the buff spells active. It's a net loss for the player.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2425
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 12/21/2016 11:53 AM PST
| subject = Re: Immolation (519)
}}
<br>
While we're on the subject, has anymore thought been given to giving us a 240 style booster? It was briefly mentioned during the post nerf uproar, but I don't think anything else has really been said about it, at least by staff.

The recent changes have been pretty awesome, don't get me wrong, but we're still lacking a reliable kill spell that's on par with 240/317/1115, which was the biggest issue for a lot of us.

~ Methais
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2426
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 12/22/2016 02:53 PM PST
| subject = 550 and drowning
}}
<br>
Time Stop doesn't do anything to save you if you're being drowned by a creature in Nelemar. Is this intended?
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2427
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 12/22/2016 03:01 PM PST
| subject = Re: 550 and drowning
}}
<br>
I'm not a fan of the current implementation of time stop at all (and am working on writing a proposed alternate version for consideration).

But I will say that 520 with lightning flares works pretty well for this if you are being drowned by an executioner (not so well if it is a defender or combatant though).

-- Robert

A powerful whirlpool is suddenly overtaken by a windy vortex!
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2428
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 12/22/2016 03:10 PM PST
| subject = Re: 550 and drowning
}}
<br>
I'm completely fine with 550 as it is. I just wanted to know if this is intended.

I'd much rather any future wizard work be done on offensive spells than more defense.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2429
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 12/22/2016 05:28 PM PST
| subject = Re: 550 and drowning
}}
<br>
''>But I will say that 520 with lightning flares works pretty well for this if you are being drowned by an executioner (not so well if it is a defender or combatant though).''

Huh?

~ Methais
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2430
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 12/22/2016 06:38 PM PST
| subject = Re: 550 and drowning
}}
<br>
''>> >> But I will say that 520 with lightning flares works pretty well for this if you are being drowned by an executioner (not so well if it is a defender or combatant though).''

''>> Huh?''

I pulled the log to show what I meant. My original assumption was that because the executioner was stunned, it allowed me to break free. Looking at it now it's possible that I just made a good roll since it isn't even 100% clear if the executioner was still stunned at the time or not. Note that the executioner stands up immediately after I break free.

Anyway... here's what I was referring to and why I think it might help (but now not 100% sure any more.)

''>A triton executioner leaps at you with uncanny agility, and you feel your breath leave you as she slams into you with her full force! You feel yourself careening into the water, your head held back as you desperately gasp for air.''
Roundtime: 10 sec.
Roundtime changed to 5 seconds.

''>The raw elemental energy surrounding you suddenly sparks with electricity.''
Sparks surrounding you arc out and hit a triton executioner, stunning her!
stand
''>You don't seem to be able to move your legs to do that.''
The elemental energy energizing you fades away.
''>stand''
You don't seem to be able to move your legs to do that.
''>look''
[Ruined Temple, Second Floor]
A spiral staircase climbs up to third floor of the temple, and is flanked on either side by a large stone statue carved to resemble a large water droplet. The flooded water reaches to the statues' middles, where wavy patterns have been formed by years of erosion. A single tapestry, soaked with moisture, hangs from the northwestern wall, and a rusted iron bar rests opposite it. You also see the orange Faulkil disk, a triton executioner that appears stunned and some muck.
Obvious exits: southeast, southwest
>A triton executioner struggles to maintain her grip on you, but is unable to keep hold!
''>A triton executioner stands up with a grunt.''
''>standYou stand back up.''
.cc 906
''>Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Fire...''
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a triton executioner.
You hurl a stream of fire at a triton executioner!
AS: +454 vs DS: +333 with AvD: +34 + d100 roll: +32 = +187
... and hit for 102 points of damage!
Flames engulf body. Chest left a smoldering ruin.
The triton executioner collapses to the floor with a splash, gurgling once with a wrathful look on her face before expiring.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

-- Robert

A powerful whirlpool is suddenly overtaken by a windy vortex!
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2431
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 12/23/2016 09:37 AM PST
| subject = Re: 550 and drowning
}}
<br>
''>I pulled the log to show what I meant. My original assumption was that because the executioner was stunned, it allowed me to break free. Looking at it now it's possible that I just made a good roll since it isn't even 100% clear if the executioner was still stunned at the time or not. Note that the executioner stands up immediately after I break free.''

Oh yeah. I forgot all about the lightning aspect.

~ Methais
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2433
| author = DRAFIX
| date = on 12/24/2016 04:01 AM PST
| subject = Re: Time Stop (550)
}}
<br>
''>An enormous rift crawler stares upward for a moment, seemingly focusing on a distant point. The area around its head begins to distort as an incredible high-frequency pulse ripples through the air, assailing your senses with a savage aural assault!''
You are frightened into immobility!
''>stop time''
Tapping into the lines of elemental energies traversing the world, you reach out and twist a few to your bidding. A golden hourglass materializes in front of you and you quickly turn it over, temporarily halting the flow of time in your immediate vicinity.

A sphere of dark ethereal ripples expands outward from you.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

''>northwest''
''>You don't seem to be able to move to do that.''
You don't seem to be able to move to do that.



Estild, Can 550 work with the damn warcries please? Really annoying I wasted my daily 550 for this :'(

Thanks.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2434
| author = DOUG
| date = on 12/25/2016 03:52 PM PST
| subject = Cold Snap Design Question - Bug?
}}
<br>
Have a quick question I want to ask before I bug 512 from my observations and start throwing around log files.

I've been testing the bejeebers out of 512 and 917 / 510 / 903 / 910 / 906 / 907 / 908 combos at differing levels of play. And I've noticed something that now just grinds my teeth every time I see it.

New NPC - cast 512 - ward margin of 75 - rooted
same NPC - cast 512 - ward margin of 15 - encased
same NPC - cast any non-shattering / non-melting spell - damage
same NPC - prep next spell AND THE DAMN BLOCK OF ICE MELTS!

Now, I like to think I'm a reasonable person - but having the entire block disappear in the minimum time without regard to the margin attained by the first cast?

Is the design intentional that when 'encased', and the ''lowest'' warding margin-based duration expires then the entire block of ice disappears?

If it's not, I'll be happy to bug it.

If it is, may I respectfully request that be reconsidered? In fact, my proposal would be simply to add the two durations together, each with a min / max result (8s / 25s), leading to a successfully encased creature (for that 24 mana and 6 seconds of cast round time) being immobilized for 16 - 50 seconds.

Putting this to the Fleur's test algorithm, Bind easily reaches 14 seconds and can exceed 75 seconds. Doesn't seem aligned well.

Doug
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2435
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 12/25/2016 04:07 PM PST
| subject = Re: Cold Snap Design Question - Bug?
}}
<br>
This sounds like a much more significant request than asking for the ice to simply not melt.

I never compared 512 to Bind though. Bind is more powerful in duration because it is a single-target disabler. 512 has always been compared to mass CS-based disablers such as 316, which were adjusted in duration to match the 512 duration at the time of the update.

It sounds like poor luck, and more of that lottery luck style RNG that wizards are subjected to more than other pures, but I wouldn't consider it a bug or unintentional design. The Wiki explicitly says that the second cast to encase the creatures refreshes the duration, so if the warding margin is lower, the duration is going to be lower.

However, neither 512 nor 316 last all THAT long, which is why it's important for the ice to not melt or to not require using more mana and time inefficient setups in order to accomplish the killing. Otherwise, the logical choice becomes to simply attempt to kill outright vs. even expending the 24 mana and time to try to encase something.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2436
| author = CANDIDE
| date = on 12/28/2016 08:47 PM PST
| subject = 520 lightning armor vs bounty cull tasks
}}
<br>
Could 520 lightning effect stunning creatures count for bounty tasks? I haven't tested the 435 versions on time stop (550) and whether they counted as well but if they don't could they? I think this would be in line with how other spells are currently working.

GBB
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2437
| author = DOUG
| date = on 12/28/2016 10:42 PM PST
| subject = Re: 520 lightning armor vs bounty cull tasks
}}
<br>
''>>Could 520 lightning effect stunning creatures count for bounty tasks?''

I'm not clear here - Stunning won't kill a creature, so 'counting' for that (bounty completion) doesn't make sense. But 520 shock effect does stun any creature that can be stunned, bounty-assigned or no, based on my experience. So I guess I just can't get my head around the ask.

''>>I haven't tested the 435 versions on time stop (550) and whether they counted as well''

Or maybe it is just me. I don't understand this one, either. ;/

Doug
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2438
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 12/29/2016 03:57 AM PST
| subject = Re: 520 lightning armor vs bounty cull tasks
}}
<br>
Most disablers that deal no damage count for culling creature/bandit tasks, including 410, 316, and 1120, so it is correct that this is inconsistent with other design setups. Whether that is intentional or an oversight is the question.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2440
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 12/29/2016 12:01 PM PST
| subject = Re: 520 lightning armor vs bounty cull tasks
}}
<br>
''>I'm not clear here - Stunning won't kill a creature, so 'counting' for that (bounty completion) doesn't make sense. But 520 shock effect does stun any creature that can be stunned, bounty-assigned or no, based on my experience. So I guess I just can't get my head around the ask.''

He's talking about getting credit for his bounty. i.e. he 520 shocks a bandit, other group member chops its head off and it dies.

You don't have to actually kill something to get bounty credit for it.

~ Methais
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2441
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 12/29/2016 12:11 PM PST
| subject = Re: 520 lightning armor vs bounty cull tasks
}}
<br>
Like other disablers, the stun effect will now contribute toward your kill.

GameMaster Estild
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2442
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 12/29/2016 12:35 PM PST
| subject = Re: 520 lightning armor vs bounty cull tasks
}}
<br>
''>Like other disablers, the stun effect will now contribute toward your kill.''

Thank you very much for this quick fix. Can 610 also be reviewed to provide this benefit?
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2443
| author = DOUG
| date = on 12/29/2016 02:04 PM PST
| subject = Re: 520 lightning armor vs bounty cull tasks
}}
<br>
''>>He's talking about getting credit for his bounty. i.e. he 520 shocks a bandit, other group member chops its head off and it dies.''

Ahh, see - that works. Soloist and all that, that's not where my mind went. I just like to see them stand around waiting for me to get back into the fray. And needless to say, I get that credit.

Thanks, Methais!

Doug
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2444
| author = DOUG
| date = on 12/29/2016 02:05 PM PST
| subject = Re: 520 lightning armor vs bounty cull tasks
}}
<br>
Thanks Meister of the E!

Doug
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2445
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 12/29/2016 02:49 PM PST
| subject = Re: 520 lightning armor vs bounty cull tasks
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|LADYFLEUR
|-
|Can 610 also be reviewed to provide this benefit?
|}

Done.

GameMaster Estild
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2446
| author = LADYFLEUR
| date = on 12/29/2016 03:01 PM PST
| subject = Re: 520 lightning armor vs bounty cull tasks
}}
<br>
Thanks so much! This is great news.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2447
| author = MENOS
| date = on 12/29/2016 04:21 PM PST
| subject = Re: 520 lightning armor vs bounty cull tasks
}}
<br>
So long as you are doing these things. What about reflecting arrows with a shield?

Sweet is the sound of the pouring rain,
And the stream that falls from the hill to plain.
Better than rain or rippling brook,
Is a mug of beer inside this Took.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2448
| author = PFLATS
| date = on 12/29/2016 05:37 PM PST
| subject = Re: 520 lightning armor vs bounty cull tasks
}}
<br>
How about Feint? I'm forcing stance and inflicting RT and then everyone else gets the kills =[
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2449
| author = CANDIDE
| date = on 12/29/2016 07:58 PM PST
| subject = Re: 520 lightning armor vs bounty cull tasks
}}
<br>
Sweet and a big thanks.

GBB
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2450
| author = ROLFARD
| date = on 01/07/2017 04:12 PM PST
| subject = Rapidfire (515) Bug?
}}
<br>
Are elemental rings supposed to make rapidfire behave like olden times?

''>515''
You recite a series of mystical phrases while raising your hands, invoking Rapid Fire...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture.
You feel the magic surge through you.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
[ Rapid Fire: +0:01:00, 0:00:59 remaining. ]

''>910 my band''
You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another!
''>''
You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band.
You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again.
[Spell re-prepared]
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>910 my band''
You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another!
''>''
Seeing an opportunity, you accelerate time and empower your spell!
You channel at a slim glossy eahnor band.
You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again.
[Spell re-prepared]
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>910 my band''
You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another!
''>''
Seeing an opportunity, you accelerate time and empower your spell!
You channel at a slim glossy eahnor band.
You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again.
[Spell re-prepared]
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>910 my band''
You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another!
''>''
You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band.
You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again.
[Spell re-prepared]
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>910 my band''
You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another!
''>''
You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band.
You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again.
[Spell re-prepared]
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>910 my band''
You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another!
''>''
You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band.
You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again.
[Spell re-prepared]
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>910 my band''
You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another!
''>''
You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band.
You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again.
[Spell re-prepared]
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>910 my band''
You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another!
''>''
You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band.
You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again.
[Spell re-prepared]
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>910 my band''
You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another!
''>''
You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band.
You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again.
[Spell re-prepared]
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>910 my band''
You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another!
''>''
You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band.
You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again.
[Spell re-prepared]
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>910 my band''
You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another!
''>''
You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band.
You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again.
[Spell re-prepared]
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>910 my band''
You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another!
''>''
You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band.
You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again.
[Spell re-prepared]
''>910 my band''
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another!
''>''
You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band.
You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again.
[Spell re-prepared]
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>910 my band''
You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another!
''>''
Seeing an opportunity, you accelerate time and empower your spell!
You channel at a slim glossy eahnor band.
You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again.
[Spell re-prepared]
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>910 my band''
''>910 my band''
You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another!
''>''
You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band.
You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again.
[Spell re-prepared]
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another!
''>''
You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band.
You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again.
[Spell re-prepared]
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>910 my band''
You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another!
''>''
You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band.
You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again.
[Spell re-prepared]
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>910 my band''
You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another!
''>910 my band''
You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band.
You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again.
[Spell re-prepared]
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another!
''>910 my band''
You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band.
You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again.
[Spell re-prepared]
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another!
''>''
You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band.
You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again.
[Spell re-prepared]
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>910 my band''
You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another!
''>910 my band''
You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band.
You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again.
[Spell re-prepared]
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another!
''>''
You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band.
You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again.
[Spell re-prepared]
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>910 my band''
You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another!
''>''
You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band.
You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again.
[Spell re-prepared]
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>910 my band''
You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another!
''>910 my band''
You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band.
You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again.
[Spell re-prepared]
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>''
You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another!
''>''
You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band.
You release your spell at the band and you can see the energy dance on the surface before dissipating.
[Spell re-prepared]
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
''>910 my band''
You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another!
''>''
You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band.
You release your spell at the band and you can see the energy dance on the surface before dissipating.
[Spell re-prepared]
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2451
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 01/07/2017 05:40 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapidfire (515) Bug?
}}
<br>
''>910 my band''
''>You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another!''
''>''
''>You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band.''
''>You release your spell at the band and you can see the energy dance on the surface before dissipating.''
''>[Spell re-prepared]''
''>Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.''

Happens with my fire band too. I like to view it as a non-combat way of leaving original Rapid Fire intact. Like if we had target dummies and Haste 2 only worked on them.

But at least we're the best band rechargers in the universe by far!

Hey wait...can we have target dummies in the game? That would actually be a really awesome thing for people to mess around on and test things with.

~ Methais
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2452
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 01/07/2017 06:50 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapidfire (515) Bug?
}}
<br>
''> Hey wait...can we have target dummies in the game? That would actually be a really awesome thing for people to mess around on and test things with.''

Sadly this is more complicated than it should be to make work 100% right. My food rats that I like to use for showing off new spell updates are my attempt at target dummies, but they aren't perfect yet.

Anyways, it's something I think about and try to work on every so often when I don't have more pressing projects.

~ Konacon
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2453
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 01/07/2017 10:21 PM PST
| subject = Re: Rapidfire (515) Bug?
}}
<br>
''>Sadly this is more complicated than it should be to make work 100% right. My food rats that I like to use for showing off new spell updates are my attempt at target dummies, but they aren't perfect yet.''

''>Anyways, it's something I think about and try to work on every so often when I don't have more pressing projects.''

What if instead of an actual target dummy, you just clone a critter and make it just stand there, but give it a million HP with a massive HP regen rate that would make it impossible to kill?

Or if it does die to some instant kill mechanic (720, 519, etc.), it just comes back to life instantly with full health. Like liches but without the wait.

~ Methais
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2454
| author = PEREGRINEFALCON
| date = on 01/08/2017 09:50 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapidfire (515) Bug?
}}
<br>
''>> What if instead of an actual target dummy, you just clone a critter and make it just stand there, but give it a million HP with a massive HP regen rate that would make it impossible to kill? ''

Can we get a 'Methais' clone for this? :-) And maybe a 'Hoy' clone as well?

-- Robert

A powerful whirlpool is suddenly overtaken by a windy vortex!
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2455
| author = GS4-ESTILD
| date = on 01/09/2017 10:16 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapidfire (515) Bug?
}}
<br>
{| {{prettytable}}
|-
|ROLFARD
|-
|Are elemental rings supposed to make rapidfire behave like olden times?
|}

This should now be resolved. Thanks for reporting it.

GameMaster Estild
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2456
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 01/10/2017 09:26 AM PST
| subject = Re: Rapidfire (515) Bug?
}}
<br>
''>Can we get a 'Methais' clone for this? :-) And maybe a 'Hoy' clone as well?''

I think we need a Konacon clone so we can call it Kloneacon.

~ Methais
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2457
| author = CANDIDE
| date = on 01/10/2017 07:58 PM PST
| subject = 502
}}
<br>
Can we get 502 to have an unlockable element for each lore type? Its frustrating to not use this spell because I can only combo it with my attuned Element or to have to at worst script the process so the element that randomly comes out automatically has a follow up with the bolt that corresponds to the 502 I just casted.

Could this spell also give a boost to combo from things like 512X2 and Impact shatter from 510 or 505? Or Water and electricity combo?

I also would still like this to work with giving CS and SMR spells some boost.

GBB

ps I find it sad that we never got back to Estild on a state of the Union response to wizardry or if we did I never saw it. Fail on our/my part.
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2458
| author = TRIPLEGAME226
| date = on 01/12/2017 05:36 AM PST
| subject = Re: 502
}}
<br>
502 could use some love as being more than just a mediocre set up spell for 2 extra bolts. Should let the next bolt or two be aimed or something instead or in addition to the bolt DS effect.

~ Methais
<br>
<br>
{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2459
| author = DOUG
| date = on 01/12/2017 07:43 AM PST
| subject = Re: 502
}}
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And while we're considering this loving touch to 502, I'd like to also be able to summon my unicorn with it, polish all my gold wands with it, turn all my silver wands into gold wands with it, and use it as a totally private two-way messaging tool with my significant other lady cleric friend.

I mean - hell, we're spending 2 whole frackin' mana here!

Doug
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2460
| author = DOUG
| date = on 01/12/2017 07:55 AM PST
| subject = Re: 502
}}
<br>
''>>I find it sad that we never got back to Estild on a state of the Union response to wizardry or if we did I never saw it. Fail on our/my part.''

Be happy! Lace up your boots and join in.

Doug
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{{saved-post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2461
| author = CANDIDE
| date = on 01/12/2017 11:41 AM PST
| subject = Re: 502
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"Be happy! Lace up your boots and join in.-Doug"

I thought I was joined in? I'm not in the band? NOOOOO!!!! Let me in! That being said please reread the sentence. "I find it sad" does not mean I am sad. :)

I know it is horrible to ask for things that make sense (to the poster at least). I asked for a unicorn on my last birthday as well. I was going to go complain about a spell being too good but I caught myself when I found my porridge/spell just right.

If 502 is a set up only spell then it should set up our spells not just bolts. If we are to be a combo spell class then make it so.

This has been done before but lets look at what 702 and 302 does and compare. --interlude-- Empaths are running around going what about us?!!?! Wizards should just be happy to have a 502 that does something! --end interlude-- Even though it does less damage than 302 and way less damage than 702. I thought the whole point of the spell was to be a low damage spell that was still useful in many situations ie 302/702. I mean war wizards will find 502 more useful than a CS/SMR wizard. That makes sense.

GBB
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{{saved-post
| category = Wizards
| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2462
| author = DOUG
| date = on 01/12/2017 12:41 PM PST
| subject = Re: 502
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Heh, great post! I appreciated the delivery.

You are - but if you want to help edit it, that's going on (and has been for too long, true) right now! Alternatively, it is still my intent to publish for general review (which you are most definitely in. ;)

I know this is now approaching 4 months in process. I'm sorry. Life and all that.

Doug
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{{saved-post
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| topic = Major Elemental Circle
| messagenum = 2463
| author = GS4-KONACON
| date = on 01/12/2017 12:44 PM PST
| subject = Re: 502
}}
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''> --interlude-- Empaths are running around going what about us?''

Their day of reckoning is nigh!

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/ca/50/95/ca509519ed36576ee1d78d0782a697bd.gif

~ Konacon
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Revision as of 21:17, 13 January 2017

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 26
Author: GS4-NAOS
Date: on 06/01/2010 08:39 AM PDT
Subject: Re: 525 and 550


I kind of like the idea. I'm less of a fan of moving 525 to another spell slot. (Also, we don't currently have any plans of releasing 50th level spells for non-profession spell circles, so 550 isn't even on the table as a target slot.)

-- Naos

I'm immune to fire! Now with more banhammer! You sense the bond between you and your grey cat grow stronger.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 27
Author: WYNTRFRSH
Date: on 06/01/2010 09:22 AM PDT
Subject: Re: 525 and 550


Thanks for the feedback, Naos.

So, how about this:

Change the slot to 535 - Storm, and give it some kind of front end disabling damage. The additional waves will continue as initially proposed.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 28
Author: SKUPEC1
Date: on 08/07/2010 05:49 PM PDT
Subject: 502 Spell Idea


As a direct consequence of the elemental attunement thread in the minor elemental board, I propose...

502 Elemental Attunement [EATTUNE]
Duration: Special
Type: Utility
As masters of elemental forces, these practitioners have learned how to temporarily overcome their natural attunement to a single element. After casting this spell, the caster is able to summon powers from an elemental plane of their choosing to power the next spell they cast (within 30 seconds).
Like many spells, knowledge of a spell is not the same as mastery of the spell. When invoking power from the elemental planes, there is a chance of unleashing more power than the caster can handle or simply failing to channel sufficient power.

Example (modelled after 203):

>attune

Usage: 

ATTUNE RANDOM    - Focus randomly on any elemental energy type.
ATTUNE ELEMENT   - Focus on your attuned elemental energy type.

You are attuned to the Element of Fire.

You are currently focused on your attuned element.

>prep 502 You recite a series of mystical phrases while raising your hands, invoking Elemental Attunemet... Your spell is ready.

>summon air A brief wind swirls around you before disappearing. You're left feeling that the power of elemental air is at your fingertips. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. (Forcing stance down to guarded)

>prep 411 You gesture and invoke the powers of the elements for the Elemental Blade spell... Your spell is ready.

>cast dagger You gesture at a dagger. A bolt of energy leaps from your hand to the dagger which seems to absorb the energy. After a few moments the dagger begins to shine with a brilliant luminescence. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

>l dagger The dagger is surrounded by a scintillating white light.


Random thoughts...

And, if it's considered too powerful to chose an attunement for a single cast, add failure chances ...

... chance of minor failure - you aren't able to attune to the element summoned for some reason - no negative effect, just 2 mana wasted

Chance to avoid a minor failure could be either based on EMC or MjE ranks. It shouldn't require too much of either, though, to basically avoid the failure. This spell is already of pretty limited limited use(1).

... chance of major failure - something went horribly wrong - take a rank 1 crit from the element summoned and not attuned successfully

Chance to avoid a major failure could be based on the appropriate elemental lore where (50 - EL bonus) = chance of major failure(2)(3).

Clearly, with failure chances, it would become a low level spell that is not intended for low level casters. I tried to minimize that by setting the major failure low enough that by the time they're learning spells where they could have some use for it, they'd be able to have 0% major failure chance with at least 1 additional element.


Notes: (1) How many spells actually look at attunement at all? 6, I think -> 503 (messaging only), 409(??), 411, 415, 435, and 920 (wyrdlings) did I miss any?

(2) Casters should automatically get a 0% chance of failure on their attuned element, but someone might argue that's giving attunement a (irrelevant) mechanical advantage.

(3) Yes, I realize my failure chances above mean you could potentially have more chance of a majoir failure than a minor one. I'm not claiming to have perfect mechanics here, just an interesting idea :D

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 29
Author: RIMALON
Date: on 08/07/2010 08:24 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


I like it!

Better than spell store, at any rate!

-Sea Wizard

You reach into the cauldron and take out a silvery monogram rocket. The cauldron raises up two of its legs and clasps them in victory.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 30
Author: AUDIOSERF
Date: on 08/09/2010 04:04 AM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


It is hilarious that Spell Store still exists and is a Thing now that prep times are gone. It is literally worse than Nightmare or Disease, two of the most useless spells in the game.

- Matt, Gondains' player.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 31
Author: AUDIOSERF
Date: on 08/09/2010 04:04 AM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


Oh, and because I forgot to mention it while making fun of Spell Store -- I like your new 502 idea a lot.

- Matt, Gondains' player.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 32
Author: ALSTHAR
Date: on 08/09/2010 11:00 AM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


Indeed, it's a good idea especially because apparently we're never going to get a FIXATTUNE or anything.

It would be really nice if you could make it a persistent buff rather than a one time use. For instance

prep 502 summon (element) then "attune focus"

Then any spells normally affected by attune work off whatever you set with 502, and increase their mana cost by 2 each cast.

If that is possible on the technical side, that is.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 33
Author: GS4-NAOS
Date: on 08/09/2010 11:38 AM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


Go fish.

-- Naos

I'm immune to fire! Now with more banhammer! You sense the bond between you and your grey cat grow stronger.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 34
Author: BADNADE
Date: on 08/09/2010 01:19 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


>>Go fish.>>>

ok, I bite..

How about this

502 elemental negation. refresable short duration While this spell is active, you are no longer attuned to your element...


Not letting us change our element but allowing us to drop it if its a hinderance...


(side note, have not played in a long while.. was no attunement when I left, so I dont know if attune will affect anything in the game in a negative way. I just assume that there is. so please edjucate me on this one, as im shooting in the dark.)



Ack! Scarab!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 35
Author: PRICKLIES
Date: on 08/09/2010 02:04 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


>>Not letting us change our element but allowing us to drop it if its a hinderance...

ATTUNE RANDOM. That's why attuning to an element is not a disadvantage. Anyone who has already attuned can "attune random" and their spells will be mechanically identical to those of an unattuned character.

>attune element You close your eyes and focus on the Element of Air. >attune

Usage: 

ATTUNE RANDOM    - Focus randomly on any elemental energy type.
ATTUNE ELEMENT   - Focus on your attuned elemental energy type.

You are attuned to the Element of Air.

You are currently focused on your attuned element.

>attune random You close your eyes and release your focus on the Element of Air. >attune

Usage: 

ATTUNE RANDOM    - Focus randomly on any elemental energy type.
ATTUNE ELEMENT   - Focus on your attuned elemental energy type.

You are attuned to the Element of Air.

>

~Denil

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 36
Author: SKUPEC1
Date: on 08/09/2010 02:30 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


>> Go fish.


502 - Create Card [ccard]
Produces one standard playing card in the caster's hand. With 300 ranks of EL:Air, caster may chose number and suit of card created.
)



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 37
Author: ALUVIUS
Date: on 08/09/2010 05:51 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


How about an elemental "bless" spell that lets wizards add temporary elemental flares to magic weapons/projectiles and wands. I guess letting it also be an undead style bless would be too much though heh.

Or maybe a reactive elemental flare buff? Chance for the flare to go off when you're hit.

Maybe a elemental resistance buff? Gives some resistance to a single element, would work randomly or to your attuned element.

Or what about an elemental CS spell? All it does is flare crit. Can be channeled for a double flare. Would give an option to bolting for lower levels. Thinking along the same lines as smite/bane but not as career defining.

All of the above would work with attune element or attune random.

Just some ideas, not sure what is too powerful or has already been tossed out heh.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 38
Author: RIMALON
Date: on 08/09/2010 08:15 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


As has been discussed before, I don't know why 502 just isn't a direct elemental crit, of minor severity.

Because we could spam it with 515? We can spam FAR WORSE!!

-Sea Wizard

You reach into the cauldron and take out a silvery monogram rocket. The cauldron raises up two of its legs and clasps them in victory.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 39
Author: AUDIOSERF
Date: on 08/10/2010 03:56 AM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


I would gladly take a bootleg Smite/Bane type of spell in 502. Doesn't have to be nearly as strong, of course. ANYthing would be nice. 502 is more annoying than unimplemented/unfinished spell circles, IMO, because 502 is implemented and is quite literally useless.

- Matt, Gondains' player.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 40
Author: ISMANO
Date: on 08/10/2010 09:09 AM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


How about a really cheap Bolt/ranged DS defensive spell (+10)? Yeah, I know it won't help the wizard too terribly much after a certain point, but it would be a nice helper spell for the other professions.

Couldn't be worse than what it is now..

-farmer

That's just what we want, criss-crossing furrows all over the town streets from someone wandering through with their animated plow super buddy.



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 41
Author: GS4-NAOS
Date: on 08/10/2010 11:41 AM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


I don't think anyone disagrees that Spell Store is useless (or at best marginally useful.)

Defensive spells aren't on the table.

I'm not sure if I see the point of a weaker version of 409/415 in the 502 slot. Wizards have enough CS-based attacks as is for a profession that is designed to use bolt spells.

-- Naos

I'm immune to fire! Now with more banhammer! You sense the bond between you and your grey cat grow stronger.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 42
Author: DOUG
Date: on 08/10/2010 11:42 AM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


Then, the answer to the dilemma is?

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 43
Author: CAELRIC
Date: on 08/10/2010 11:47 AM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


single use bolt AS bonus, similar to 117, but not nearly as much of a bonus.

'Cause you know, wizards need more bolt AS...


-Taakhooshi, and Me

For the Story of Taakhooshi: http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Taakhooshi

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 44
Author: WOLFES2
Date: on 08/10/2010 12:16 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


I'm thinking a boost to bolt AS is actually not a bad idea. 502 coming early on could be useful for a low level wizard. Later on, when wizards don't need the AS quite as much, they'd find the boost to be negligible.

502 Hawk Eye +5 bolt AS Include some sort of lore bonus, with something like a possible +15 bolt AS at cap (I'd prefer making it earth lore based since not many other spells hinge on that lore...ties in with 510 nicely). 5 AS is huge at level 3. 15 AS at level 100 is pretty small. That actually strikes me as worthy of a low level profession specific spell.

~Galenok

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 47
Author: ALUVIUS
Date: on 08/10/2010 12:24 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


--- How about a travel type spell, something like Element Mastery. Gives you survival ranks and has a chance to block/mitigate some of the annoying stuff like the cold around icemule, slow movement in swamps, etc. Maybe lets you walk a few inches off the ground like water walking but with random elements or your attuned element.

XXX lifts from the ground supported by roiling disks of fire under his feet. (Okay maybe not that dramatic hehe).

--- Hmm, or perhaps a spell that randomly grows alchemy materials from the ground? All lores could work on it producing different effects. Same for element attunement.

Of course I personally don't have the patience for alchemy heh.

--- How about a cloud type spell that fires bolt spells based on the wizard's Spell Aiming ranks, Major Elemental ranks and/or lores? Random or attuned element could also affect it. Sort of like the Bard's Singing Weapon song, but obviously not as powerful, ie more along the lines of minor shock bolts. Lores could increase the number of bolts/targets it would fire off in a round.

Or instead of a cloud maybe some other thing, like say a crystal growng from the ground if you make it non mobile or maybe a tiny golem if you make it mobile like a familiar.

You could either go with random bolt firing like a cloud or targeted like singing weapon where you tell it to attack a target or it just attacks your target.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 48
Author: WOLFES2
Date: on 08/10/2010 12:35 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


>>--- How about a travel type spell, something like Element Mastery. Gives you survival ranks and has a chance to block/mitigate some of the annoying stuff like the cold around icemule, slow movement in swamps, etc. Maybe lets you walk a few inches off the ground like water walking but with random elements or your attuned element.

While the description leans toward more elemental, I see this as more a Ranger's purvey.

~Galenok

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 49
Author: ISMANO
Date: on 08/10/2010 12:41 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


>ALUVIUS

Those are kind of powerful for a 2 mana spell.


-farmer

That's just what we want, criss-crossing furrows all over the town streets from someone wandering through with their animated plow super buddy.



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 50
Author: GRYPES
Date: on 08/10/2010 12:51 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


502 : Accelerate object When cast upon an object will cause object to begin vibrating at super sonic speeds. The object can then be used to attack like a bolt spell using the DIRECT verb. 

At basic levels this spell can be used on small objects like smooth stones (<2lbs).  Additional training would allow the caster to vibrate larger objects like arrows, daggers,stones, and most objects up to 5 pounds.

Advantages: This spell would work on magic-immune creatures. This spell would ignore certain magic-only protective spells.
Disadvantage: This spell would require a disposable item to be useful.

Dgry



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 51
Author: JADZIABLUE
Date: on 08/10/2010 01:15 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


>502 : Accelerate object >When cast upon an object will cause object to begin vibrating at super sonic speeds. The object can then be used to attack like a bolt spell using the DIRECT verb.

>At basic levels this spell can be used on small objects like smooth stones (<2lbs). Additional training would allow the caster to vibrate larger objects like arrows, daggers,stones, and most objects up to 5 pounds.

>Advantages: This spell would work on magic-immune creatures. This spell would ignore certain magic-only protective spells. 

Disadvantage: This spell would require a disposable item to be useful.

I seem to recall from some Simucon past that this exact spell will be in one of the mental (or maybe Savant) lists as a telekinesis thing.

I also recall being jealous. 

Signed,
Raelee and her Strings

>Speaking to Zyllah, Alyias says, "See? Raelee knows all."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 52
Author: RIMALON
Date: on 08/10/2010 01:47 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


>I'm not sure if I see the point of a weaker version of 409/415 in the 502 slot. Wizards have enough CS-based attacks as is for a profession that is designed to use bolt spells. -Naoz

No? I sort of disagree with you. Let's rundown our CS based-attacks...


409--E-blast--Does not cause elemental crit of any kind.

415--E-strike--Does cause elemental crit, for 15 mana!

915--Weapon Fire--Does cause elemental crit, for 15 mana, if it actually hits the target.

501--Sleep--no direct damage

505--Hand of Tonis--no direct damage

512--Ice Patch--LULZCAKES

514--Stone Fist--LOLLERCOASTER!

519--Immolation--Does cause TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE fire damage, for 19 mana.

We have no way to cause elemental criticals for under 15 mana. What if a young wizard is hunting undead, or ice creatures, or fire creatures, or trolls, and wants to inflict some quick and dirty elemental damage if a creature is turtled?

Implement a lore bonus such that X amount of lore training in an element allows you to specify the type of elemental crit you cause. You trained in 10 ranks of fire lore? You can always get a fire crit, if you want.

It would give young wizards a reason to train lores early on in their career, compared to now, where the benefits begin to kick in the latter half of the game.

I don't know. It makes sense to me, as elementalists, regardless of design paradigms, that we should have a cheap, quick spell like this.

-Sea Wizard

You reach into the cauldron and take out a silvery monogram rocket. The cauldron raises up two of its legs and clasps them in victory.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 53
Author: CORDELIA
Date: on 08/10/2010 02:02 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


My suggestion for 502:

"How about making the spell kind of like the old Unpain, but for mana? You cast the spell, and add X amount of mana to your total pool (Based on spell ranks, EMC, etc). As a balance since it is a level 2 spell, whatever mana was added to your total amount (going from having 300 mana to 330, for instance), would be subtracted from your total mana at the time the spell expired. That way, you would have to manage how much mana you have when the spell falls, or fry the crap out of your nerves.

Have the spell give a nice flat amount at first, like a +10, plus a flat +1 mana per every 20 points over in a D100 roll. Then, have every 10 ranks of EMC up to 100 ranks take off 1 point from the 20, and every 20 ranks from 100-200 taking off another 1 point. Every 10 ranks of Major Elemental over 502 would add another +1 to to base total of mana.

The spell wouldn't be crazy overpowered, but it would always add a decent amount of mana to your overall pool. "

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 54
Author: DONOHO
Date: on 08/10/2010 02:15 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


>--- How about a travel type spell, something like Element Mastery. Gives you survival ranks and has a chance to block/mitigate some of the annoying stuff like the cold around icemule, slow movement in swamps, etc. Maybe lets you walk a few inches off the ground like water walking but with random elements or your attuned element.


This is essentially a better version of the ranger spell 602.

I do like the unmana idea. I always thought unpain was a cool spell, reminded me of magic cards that you had to flip a coin for good or bad things to happen.


Olivier/Chivalrous-Proud inventor of the causality destroying Droit ballista

(OOC) You whisper to Oweodry, "What do you think about that ACT she just did?" > (OOC) Oweodry's player whispers, "I think it's called the ACT verb not the IMPLICATE verb."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 55
Author: PRICKLIES
Date: on 08/10/2010 02:32 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


And if these suggestions look too powerful for a level 2 spell, feel free to drop Slow down to 502 and open up 504. Or drop Slow to 502, Ice Patch down to 504, and open up 512.

~Denil

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 56
Author: CORDELIA
Date: on 08/10/2010 02:41 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


Slow either needs to be made into a reactive defensive spell, or given an unfocused version. Ice Patch should be turned into a maneuver attack, focused or unfocused, which if the target(s) fails the check, they receive the ROOTED condition.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 57
Author: GREDGEWIZ
Date: on 08/10/2010 02:49 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea - Some New Stuff


I think moving 504 to 502 and 512 to 504 is a great idea, it would make the current 512 far more viable for its intended use (perhaps reduce its overall duration a little for the drop in mana cost).

Something along the lines of this might be ok...

(512) Elemental Alignment Duration: 10 seconds per rank in Major Elemental Spells.

This spell allows the wizard to temporarily attune to another element. This element can not directly clash with their naturally attuned element if they have chosen one. If a wizard has not chosen an element to attune to yet, this spell will only last half of its normal duration.

A wizard is basically calling upon their allied elements to help them in combat and grants the wizard the ability to harness the elements more readily.

syntax prep 512 SUMMON [fire, earth, air, water, lightning]

Wizards attuned to fire can not summon water, and vice-versa

Wizards attuned to earth can not summon air, and vice versa

Wizards attuned to lightning can not summon either fire or earth

The duration should be enough to cast a fair amount of spells with enough training in Major Elemental Spells.


Along with the elemental lore review (in the works still?) I would also like to propose the element of Lava (earth/fire hybrid). Granting a bonus to Boil Earth, potential Lava flare damage from Stone Fist and Hurl Bolder, for Lava attuned wizards.

I was also thinking that moving 902 to the 502 slot and making a new 902 would be possible.

Maybe later...

-Fremie- Moonshine Manor Officer Events Team Leader

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 58
Author: GREDGEWIZ
Date: on 08/10/2010 02:50 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea - Some New Stuff


i like the idea of Ice Patch working more like Web with the rooting, etc.

-Fremie- Moonshine Manor Officer Events Team Leader

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 59
Author: ALUVIUS
Date: on 08/10/2010 02:55 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


Just curious but to the folks that say its too powerful for a 2 mana spell and then compare it to a similiar 2 mana spell ... uhh, whaa? :)

There are plenty of powerful 1-3 mana spells in the lists, including the ones folks used to shoot down my ideas heh. We just happen to have one that is useless.

I think it should be a 2 mana CS damage spell, since as someone outlined the first one we get is 9 mana currently. But that was shot down, thus the flow of ideas.

Regarding Slow. Yeah, maybe move it down to 502 and implement an idea into 504 that is too powerful for the 502 slot. Or better yet, does anyone actually use Slow? As a warmage Feint is much more useful, I don't think I've ever cast it. Maybe revise both slots.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 60
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 08/10/2010 06:24 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


Then, the answer to the dilemma is?


Some kind of fun utility spell.

- Elemental Runestave /* produces an elemental runestave to serve the wizard, lasts for a duration or until dropped */

- Reinforce object /* Temporarily strengthens an object - one immediate use that comes to mind would be a lockpick or a weapon or armor if weapon breakage existed */

- Garble Woosh /* summons elements of air to alter the targets speech for a period of time, anything spoken comes out altered somehow */

- Sweet Tooth /* Removes a tasty food object from the targets inventory - preference given to tarts, cookies, or candy */

-- Faulkil

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 61
Author: DRUMPEL
Date: on 08/10/2010 07:25 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


>I always thought unpain was a cool spell, reminded me of magic cards that you had to flip a coin for good or bad things to happen.

To my sudden surprise after I returned from a little break to find out that 510 (Unpain) was removed and replaced with Hurl Boulder....casint Hurl Boulder at yourself doesn't remove pain...it hurts!

I was also pretty pissed when I found that 519 (I think that was the spell slot if I remember correctly) Telekinesis was removed....

I miss some of those older spells :-(

-Drumpel

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 62
Author: PRICKLIES
Date: on 08/10/2010 08:05 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


>>I was also pretty pissed when I found that 519 (I think that was the spell slot if I remember correctly) Telekinesis was removed....

Telekinetic Disarm. I think that was judged to invite more abuse than it was worth.

~Denil

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 63
Author: GS4-OSCURO
Date: on 08/10/2010 08:15 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


>>I seem to recall from some Simucon past that this exact spell will be in one of the mental (or maybe Savant) lists as a telekinesis thing.

http://www.play.net/gs4/info/spells/spelllist.asp?circle=15#1206

GameMaster Oscuro

Rogue Team Cleric/Empath Team

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 64
Author: ALSTHAR
Date: on 08/10/2010 08:21 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


>>I seem to recall from some Simucon past that this exact spell will be in one of the mental (or maybe Savant) lists as a telekinesis thing.>>

That makes sense. Moon Mages have this in DR (telekinetic throw, and the more OMGWTFPWN version telekinetic storm) and they're basically savants. (old school moonie represent)

>>Telekinetic Disarm. I think that was judged to invite more abuse than it was worth.>>

It was one of my favorite spells too :(

...i guess i should make a savant when they're released in....oh, who am i kidding.

For 502 how about something that would help low level wizards out when trying to fry hunting as...a wizard instead of a warmage.

elemental empowerment. You have a small chance when casting minor shock, acid, water, or fire to instead cast the major version of that same spell.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 65
Author: DONOHO
Date: on 08/10/2010 10:26 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


>I was also pretty pissed when I found that 519 (I think that was the spell slot if I remember correctly) Telekinesis was removed....


I don't remember what telekinesis did?


Olivier/Chivalrous-Proud inventor of the causality destroying Droit ballista

(OOC) You whisper to Oweodry, "What do you think about that ACT she just did?" > (OOC) Oweodry's player whispers, "I think it's called the ACT verb not the IMPLICATE verb."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 66
Author: PRICKLIES
Date: on 08/10/2010 10:30 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


>>I don't remember what telekinesis did?

http://walkaer.tripod.com/MajorElementalspells.txt

~Denil

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 67
Author: DONOHO
Date: on 08/10/2010 11:13 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


>http://walkaer.tripod.com/MajorElementalspells.txt


You're making me nostalgic for haste II



Olivier/Chivalrous-Proud inventor of the causality destroying Droit ballista

(OOC) You whisper to Oweodry, "What do you think about that ACT she just did?" > (OOC) Oweodry's player whispers, "I think it's called the ACT verb not the IMPLICATE verb."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 68
Author: NIGHTFOX
Date: on 08/10/2010 11:27 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


I've been going through my old data archives lately trying to sort and categorize everything; I finished off my Gemstone folder a few days ago. Among my old stuff I found an ancient spell list, which I copied from a post Krakii made in 1999 on these very forums. I note that some of these aren't implemented yet... perhaps one of them could be a 502 replacement. I suggest the original 520. Seems very practicable in today's Gemstone...

(Not very friendly formatting, but understandable if you take a close look).

-Grendeg


Category Socializing & Roleplaying (10) Topic Tales of the Old Days in GemStone III (141) Message How 'bout them Old Days? (628) By KRAKII@PLAY.NET (Krakii) On Apr 6, 1999 at 10:05

Want to talk old? Check out the spells (particularly 20th and 50th on the Major Elemental (Closed Essence) list) we were looking at... :)

SPELLS Open Essence Mage Closed Essence

@401 Guarding I #901 Shockbolt 501 Sleep I 402 Presence *902 Magic Edge 502 Spellstore 403 Lock Lore #903 Water Bolt @503 Blur 404 Trap Lore #904 Stun Cloud 504 Slow I 405 Detect @905 Displacement 505 Sleep II @406 Guarding II #906 Fire Bolt *506 Haste I 407 Word of Opening #907 Cold Ball @507 Deflection 408 Word of Disarming #908 Fire Ball @508 Spell Bending

  1. 409 Essence Blast 909 Tremors *509 Strength

410 Essence Wave #910 Lightning Bolt 510 Unpain

  • 411 Essence Blade @911 Mass Blur 511 Floating Disk
  • 412 Blade Turn 912 Call Wind 512 Slow II

413 Vulnerability #913 Death Cloud 513 Sleep III @414 Guarding III #914 Firestorm *514 Haste II

  1. 415 Essence Strike #915 Weapon Fire *515 Rapid Fire

416 Piercing Gaze @916 Invisibility !516 Charge Wand 417 Dispel Magic #917 Boil Earth !517 Charge Staff 418 Gather Flows 918 Duplicate !@518 Bravery True @419 Mass Guarding @919 Wizard's Shield 519 Sleep True 420 Imbed Spell 920 Call Familiar !520 Calm Dragon

  • 425 True Strike 925 Enchant True !@525 Mist Form

!@430 Guarding True !930 Unknown !530 Word of Calling !450 Flow Riding !950 Unknown !550 Dragon Control

Notes: Mage spell 930 and 950 must be discovered by the advanced mage. They are Unknown to all at this time.

@ = Spells that add to target's defensive bonus.

  1. = Spells that can cause CP damage to the target.
  • = Spells that increase the targets offensive ability.

! = Spell is not implemented at this time.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 69
Author: DOUG
Date: on 08/11/2010 05:37 AM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


Doug sighs.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 70
Author: WYNTRFRSH
Date: on 08/11/2010 08:26 AM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


>>For 502 how about something that would help low level wizards out when trying to fry hunting as...a wizard instead of a warmage. >>elemental empowerment. You have a small chance when casting minor shock, acid, water, or fire to instead cast the major version of that same spell.

I like this idea. Make it refreshable and able to be improved with lores. The bigger the boost provided through lores, the higher the mana cost (to cast 502, not the bolt).

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 71
Author: ALUVIUS
Date: on 08/11/2010 09:08 AM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


How about a wand enchantment? Sorta like wizblade or eblade for a wand. It could give +AS to a wand and/or elemental flares? Lores could increase the +AS and/or give it different flares ala the lore review 902 effects. Or instead of flares maybe a chance for a double bolt/ball strike?

It would be helpful for everyone, low level wizards, sorcs/emps/clerics who use wands and even older wizards.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 72
Author: TREYETHAM
Date: on 08/11/2010 09:52 AM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


Or mayhap, just give wands a chance to last longer.

- Metadi

You say, "'Haven's nae sordid... Jes' prone tae cataclysm."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 73
Author: WYNTRFRSH
Date: on 08/11/2010 12:14 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


Or how about: Spell Store allows you to store spells in your runestaff? Hold a runestaff in your right hand and a wand in your left, cast 502 at the wand, and all the charges from your wand get transferred to your runestaff. The wand is consumed in the process.

You can store up to 40 charges in your runestaff. This only works with elemental wands (including minor steam, major cold, and major acid) and you can only store charges from one kind of wand at a time. Use WAVE to activate.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 74
Author: PRICKLIES
Date: on 08/11/2010 12:21 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


>>Or how about: Spell Store allows you to store spells in your runestaff? Hold a runestaff in your right hand and a wand in your left, cast 502 at the wand, and all the charges from your wand get transferred to your runestaff. The wand is consumed in the process.

>>You can store up to 40 charges in your runestaff. This only works with elemental wands (including minor steam, major cold, and major acid) and you can only store charges from one kind of wand at a time. Use WAVE to activate.

I like this idea. I'm not sure what exactly you meant by "elemental wands," but I think it'd be more fun if it could pull the charge from any regular imbeddable with a WAVE activator. Maybe restrict it to the elemental spells, but allow spells beyond bolts and balls. It wouldn't have to go as high as 40 charges, if that would be overpowered.

And use point as the activator: POINT [STAFF] AT [TARGET]. Blammo!

~Denil

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 75
Author: WYNTRFRSH
Date: on 08/11/2010 12:37 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


>>I like this idea. I'm not sure what exactly you meant by "elemental wands," but I think it'd be more fun if it could pull the charge from any regular imbeddable with a WAVE activator. Maybe restrict it to the elemental spells, but allow spells beyond bolts and balls. It wouldn't have to go as high as 40 charges, if that would be overpowered. >>And use point as the activator: POINT [STAFF] AT [TARGET]. Blammo! >>~Denil

I was just thinking about wands you find in the treasure system; but yeah, it should work with all wands/rods whether treasure-found, alchemy-made or imbedded. It would be restricted to elemental spells, though.

If 40 is overpowered, maybe the number of charges could be scaled by the amount of mana the spell takes to cast. For example, spells 6 mana and below could be stored for up to 40 charges. Spells 7 to 12 mana could be stored for up to 20 charges, and spells 13-20 mana could be stored for up to 12 charges.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 76
Author: BADNADE
Date: on 08/11/2010 03:04 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


>>>If 40 is overpowered, maybe the number of charges could be scaled by the amount of mana the spell takes to cast. For example, spells 6 mana and below could be stored for up to 40 charges. Spells 7 to 12 mana could be stored for up to 20 charges, and spells 13-20 mana could be stored for up to 12 charges.<<

Loving this idea! It kinda like duplicate, kinda like enchant, kinda like charge item. I think it fits with theme.

and perhaps we could eventualy see auction items and weapons that can be 502ed as well.



Ack! Scarab!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 77
Author: ISMANO
Date: on 08/11/2010 06:24 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


>Or how about: Spell Store allows you to store spells in your runestaff? Hold a runestaff in your right hand and a wand in your left, cast 502 at the wand, and all the charges from your wand get transferred to your runestaff. The wand is consumed in the process

I would probably guess that this would fall into the auction quality type of deal. Granted, I think it'd be pretty fun and freely admit runestaves need some love.


-farmer

That's just what we want, criss-crossing furrows all over the town streets from someone wandering through with their animated plow super buddy.



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 78
Author: AUDIOSERF
Date: on 08/12/2010 04:43 AM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


I think having 502 be a "902 for wands" is the best idea yet. +15 AS for the wand in question. It would help low level mages out a lot, just like 902 does. I don't know how often pure mages use wands at higher levels but I imagine it's not often at all, so the +15 wouldn't really affect bolt DS balance issues.

- Matt, Gondains' player.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 79
Author: ALUVIUS
Date: on 08/12/2010 09:08 AM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


-- A 902 for wands would also help out other pures that use wands for hunting.

-- Runestave Bonding. For the runestaff buff idea, maybe it could work sort of like the paladin weapon bonding spell thingie. Of course not as powerful, but it would get better as you gain more major elemental ranks. Maybe give it a return to hand style function much later. It could add spell aim to start, which would rise with spell ranks/lores. Maybe other stuffs.

p.s. Yes I know its a level 2 spells, which is why i've been making the point about lores/spell ranks/levels giving the goods.

-- Summon Staff. Maybe it could summon an elemental runestaff sort of like a sonic weapon. One that couldn't be disarmed and would rise in enchant with ranks/levels/lores.

-- Runestaff Enchantment. Perhaps it could be cast on a runestaff and give you effects based on the enchant of the runestaff, ie more SA, CS, DS, etc. It would give an incentive for people to use/enchant runestaves above the basic 4x (since there's not much point now). I don't mean it would perma enchant a runestaff, just a time based buff.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 80
Author: LORDKRIP
Date: on 08/14/2010 08:49 AM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


>>Really old wizard spell list (proposal?)<

I enjoyed reading that.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 81
Author: SILVERPHOENIX21
Date: on 08/18/2010 11:03 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


I'd combine the runestaff storage idea and the bolt level enhancement idea. 502 consumes an iron wand (or other Minor Shock WAVE imbed), then POINT RUNESTAFF AT [target] will cast Major Shock.

Consume a gold wand and get 908. Hrm...do we have any other wand spells that are Minor bolts with implemented Major counterparts? Is there a Major Steam?

(For that matter, is 908 really superior to slender blue wands?)

Anywho, I see that as being a major boon to low level wizards without terribly upsetting the upper levels. 

    ~ Lumi



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 82
Author: WYNTRFRSH
Date: on 08/19/2010 06:39 AM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


>>(For that matter, is 908 really superior to slender blue wands?)

Do you mean 907 (Major Cold)? If so, it depends. Slender blue wands work on some cold critters like skeletal ice trolls and cold guardians, whereas 907 heals them.

But when it comes to fighting critters that are susceptible to cold, 907 wins hands down. 907 is to fire creatures as 908 is to trolls. Slender blue wands just hurl a single chunk of ice at the critter. 907 blossoms, gives you a double hit, and can hit multiple critters.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 83
Author: DOUG
Date: on 08/19/2010 07:32 AM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


Did we drastically adjust the DF for blue wands?

I thought at one time it was lightning (major shock), blue wand (chunk ice), stone fist (rock), 906, 907/8, etc, etc.

Those blue wands might 'only' put out a chunk of ice, but if you didn't have 10 mana, that wand would usually put a gaping hole in whatever you were waving it at. Usually far more damaging than 907 ever was, even with blooming, blasting, tripling effects.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 84
Author: WYNTRFRSH
Date: on 08/19/2010 08:38 AM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


Honestly, I'd rather have a Major Acid wand because acid works on everything. It even wrecks the stuff on the Basalt Flats almost as well as 907 does. Unless I'm in Icemule, I also prefer Major Cold to Minor Cold (the spell in the slender blue wand). That's because I don't ever use cold spells on anything except fire critters. At this point, I duplicate and sell any slender blue wands I come across. This may be because my wizard's in Voln and many (most?) undead are immune to cold.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 85
Author: SPYRIDONM1
Date: on 08/19/2010 12:46 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


>Did we drastically adjust the DF for blue wands? - Doug


Major Cold (907) Critical Damage Type: Cold/Ice

Minor Cold (1709) Slender Blue Wand Critical Damage Type: Impact or Cold/Ice

Minor Cold will do either impact or cold crits. I don't know the ratio, but it seems from the little bit of research I did that 1709 is heavily weighted toward impact crits. So, the wands will be somewhat effective against cold immune targets.

Impact: You wave your blue wand at a zombie. 

 1d100: 73 + Modifiers: 174 == 247

You hurl a chunk of ice at a zombie! 

 AS: +237 vs DS: +118 with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +37 = +185
  ... and hit for 41 points of damage!
  Strong blow to right hand breaks it!

Cold: You wave your blue wand at a zombie. 

 1d100: 27 + Modifiers: 173 == 200

You hurl a chunk of ice at a zombie! 

 AS: +237 vs DS: +103 with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +41 = +204

The zombie shrugs off the cold. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

. .

Armor Group: Cloth Leather Scale Chain Plate
Damage Factor (907): .445 .350 .245 .217 .208
Damage Factor (1709): .667 .460 .385 .375 .355
AsG: 1 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
AvDs (907): 65 55 54 53 52 45 43 41 39 40 36 32 28 35 29 23 17
AvDs (1709): 45 40 39 38 37 35 33 31 29 40 36 32 28 30 24 18 12

. . Mark

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 86
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 08/22/2010 01:41 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


>Telekinetic Disarm. I think that was judged to invite more abuse than it was worth.

Except that it didn't work on other players, therefore no potential for abuse.

I always thought they took it from us to give to Savants.

Immolate > Telekinetic Disarm anyway.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 87
Author: DOUG
Date: on 08/22/2010 01:46 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


> I always thought they

Sort of true.

>Immolate > Telekinetic Disarm

Er, no. TeleDis had very distinct and useful purposes.

Had it been my call, I'd have left TeleDis in place (perhaps changing the flavor a bit to not step on Savant toes), and made Immolate one attack type from Cone.

Fire mage - cone == immolate Air mage - cone == vacuum Water mage - cone == flash flood Earth mage - cone == Stalagmite

And lightening would only be available to those arch-magi who had not aligned.

)

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 88
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 09/14/2010 04:13 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


>Er, no. TeleDis had very distinct and useful purposes.

The only "use" I ever had with Telekinetic Disarm other than recovering someone's disarmed weapon was so I could run around with those cool looking 6x shield-staves that eidolons run around with. Since they crumble, 519 was the only way to get one in your hand. Of course, you couldn't do anything else with it, like put it away.

What are these fabled purposes you speak of?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 89
Author: BRIARFOX
Date: on 09/14/2010 04:17 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


Ooo. I'm going to go disarm one now. As long as the creature is still alive, it should be fine.


~ Nuadjha, the Briar Fox

You inhale deeply upon your pipe, puckering your lips as you send out three rings of smoke before you, then puff out a small vine of smoke that darts right through all three which causes them to disperse in a hazy shroud!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 90
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 09/14/2010 04:20 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


>Ooo. I'm going to go disarm one now. As long as the creature is still alive, it should be fine.

Yep it'll work that way now. Pretty sure it wasn't like that back in the day though. I remember slapping those crumbly weapons away from critters after they dropped them so that they couldn't pick them back up.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 91
Author: LORDKRIP
Date: on 09/14/2010 10:05 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


I frequently employed a similar tactic in the stronghold. Those stone mattocks or mauls or whatever they were are no joke. They didn't work on the stone mastiffs, because they weren't enchanted, but they beat everything else up in a hurry.


"The abuse of greatness is when it disjoins remorse from power" - William Shakespeare

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 92
Author: DOUG
Date: on 09/15/2010 10:38 AM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Spell Idea


I'm not sure if that is a quote from me, Methias. But it is something I have said in the past, and it is something I believe strongly. I miss telekinetic disarm.

There are a number of creatures that it is surprisingly good to disarm. The one you might have the most relevant experience with is the pyro and shards.

If you can see the relative use of taking the sharding capability of the glaes club from the pyro, then you should be able to fairly easily extend the exercise to creatures with lances that charge, creatures with hurling weapons if you cannot muster the DS (this could be true of ranged weapons, too -- but timing would be tricky. Doesn't do a lot of good to keep stripping the arrow / bolt).

Anything coming at you with a feras weapon that you survive the first touch from.

Polearms in general especially from the creatures that show a tendency to want to trip up their targets.

The list goes on.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 93
Author: OLSENC10
Date: on 11/28/2010 02:03 PM PST
Subject: 517


Some of my items that ive charged up wont activate. Anyone know whats up with that? 405 says it has a spell of known origin.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 94
Author: GAGLIARDIJ
Date: on 07/11/2011 07:16 PM PDT
Subject: Stone Fist and Stone Skin


Type: Attack

Using the elemental powers of Earth, the Wizard is able to conjure a massive stone fist. This fist will grab on to the enemy, leaving it rooted where it stands, and hampering combat. The Wizard may then direct the stone fist to weaken the foe into submission, enabling him to attack with the final blow.

While held by one stone fist, targets are immune to additional casts of the spell. After the initial 14 mana cast, the fist remains linked to the caster's hand. Using various hand gestures, the caster can command the fist to act. These commands require additional mana and are subject to the rules of normal casting. To invoke an action, it must be targeted at the foe held by the caster's stone fist.


I'm curious as to the nature of the "rooting where it stands, hampering combat" bit. I've been using Stonefist for grins and after they fail warding I sure do not see any diminished combat ability. As I type this, I wondering if there is a DS pushdown? At any rate, its definitely no web bolt, bind, etc. The spell is clunky, but i don't mind the extra steps for attack too much. . . especially if the stone fist surrounding them actually hampered their attempts at attacking me. In what manner is this spell disabling/hampering critters or is it not working as intended?

Stone Skin: I've 100 ranks of earth lore currently. (late night fixskills/whimsical training change). Anyhow, I've only ever seen the "thick layer of stone" from casting the spell, nothing higher, no matter how many times i cast it. I could get the same effect at tons lower elemental earth lore just by casting the spell a few times. Is this spell working as intended?

Thanks,

-J

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 95
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 07/11/2011 07:28 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Stone Fist and Stone Skin


Stone Skin: I've 100 ranks of earth lore currently. (late night fixskills/whimsical training change). Anyhow, I've only ever seen the "thick layer of stone" from casting the spell, nothing higher, no matter how many times i cast it. I could get the same effect at tons lower elemental earth lore just by casting the spell a few times. Is this spell working as intended?



I believe Major Elemental Training is the only factor in determining your Stone Skin thickness at present. At least this has been my experience.

-- Faulkil

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 96
Author: ROB
Date: on 07/11/2011 07:41 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Stone Fist and Stone Skin


>Stone Skin: I've 100 ranks of earth lore currently. (late night fixskills/whimsical training change). Anyhow, I've only ever seen the "thick layer of stone" from casting the spell, nothing higher, no matter how many times i cast it. I could get the same effect at tons lower elemental earth lore just by casting the spell a few times. Is this spell working as intended?

MjE spell ranks determine the top end of the thickness scale and Earth Lore brings up the bottom end of the scale. So, yes it is working as intended. Training in more Earth Lore as you stated just gets you the better thickness without having to cast more than once.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 97
Author: THROGG
Date: on 04/06/2012 12:32 PM PDT
Subject: recharge query


When using the charge item spell, do the same factors enter into success as the enchant item spell? IE,is it best done in a workshop, familar present, unencumbered etc., or will you have equal success doing it in TSC for example, with no special factors present?


The bells of Hell go ting-a-ling-a-ling for you but not for me

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 98
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 04/06/2012 12:58 PM PDT
Subject: Re: recharge query


From my notes (and from Krakii) on 517 - Charge Item:

- Being in a workshop increases the chance of a successful cast. - Encumberance may hinder you chance of success (need to test this out, maybe on my next trip back to Icemule). - Having a familiar present (or not present) is not a factor. - Value of the gem will influence how long your charging sphere lasts.

- Training in MjE and MIU will affect chance of success/severity of failure. - Training in EMC will decrease the mana required for charging a spell down to its base mana cost.

-- Faulkil

Much to your horror, a devastating inferno of flaming rocks ignite the entire sky and smite the area!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 99
Author: THROGG
Date: on 04/07/2012 10:15 AM PDT
Subject: Re: recharge query


>>Training in EMC will decrease the mana required for charging a spell down to its base mana cost.<<

I have noticed that the mana cost also seems to depend on what spell realm the item being charged contains; it looks as though the further away from elemental, the greater the mana needed. I have only tried charging small statues and blue crystals so far; the crystals took more mana. Statues are from the arcane spell circle, while blue crystals are spell 117, MnS.


The bells of Hell go ting-a-ling-a-ling for you but not for me

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 100
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 04/07/2012 10:22 AM PDT
Subject: Re: recharge query


You should review the info about charge item on Krakiipedia at http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Charge_Item

-- Robert

Much to your horror, a devastating inferno of flaming rocks ignite the entire sky and smite the area!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 101
Author: GELSTONJ
Date: on 07/16/2012 12:37 AM PDT
Subject: Another 502 idea


Make it a flare adding spell, basically the flare portion of 411. Something that can stack with 902. I don't see is as OP at all and it is far better than the uselessness of the 502 we currently have.

~James Player of Septimius

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 102
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 07/16/2012 07:14 AM PDT
Subject: (Yet another) 502 spell proposal


While I'm not opposed to scrapping the current spell entirely, I've been giving some thought to trying to make 502 useful along the lines of its original intent.

I would make the duration of the ability RECALL a spell initially short (maybe 2 minutes) with the ability to extend it out to about 10 minutes based on training ranks related to the spell being stored (Wizard ranks for wizard spells, Major Elemental ranks for Major Elemental spells, etc).


Duration: Special

Type: Utility

Often times the outcome of a battle is determined by who can react first. Because the wizard often is hindered by lengthy gestures and chants, Spell Store has become an invaluable first strike weapon.

After casting this spell, the caster can then cast any of his or her other spells which will be prepared and stored away in such a way that it can be instantly recalled and cast. The spell to be stored must be cast within 30 seconds after Spell Store. Mana for the stored spell is expended up front as all of the preparations are completed in advance except for the final step of casting the spell.

To recall a stored spell the caster need only use RECALL and then CAST the spell. No additional mana will be expended or time required due to the advanced preparations taken.

Note: Although spell store does hold a spell for a long time, it does not do so forever; the exact time when this fails depends on the caster's activity.

Example:

>incant 502 You recite a series of mystical phrases while raising your hands, invoking Spell Store... Your spell is ready. You gesture. You feel the magic surge through you. (If you prepare a spell in the next 30 seconds, it will be stored.) Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

>prepare major fire Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Major Fire... Your spell is prepared and ready to release. [Spell is stored and ready to cast. Use RECALL to cast within the next 10 minutes]. Roundtime 3 seconds.

>prep 901 Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Shock... Your spell is ready. >cast at stone You gesture at a pink rhodochrosite stone. Nothing happens. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

>RECALL Energies for the Major Fire spell rush to the forefront of your mind ready to be unleashed.

>cast at stone Prepared in advance, you release the energies of your Major Fire spell with a single thought. You gesture at a pink rhodochrosite stone. You hurl a roaring ball of fire at a pink rhodochrosite stone! The rhodochrosite stone glows with a warm aura then quickly cools off. Cast Roundtime 0 Seconds.

-- Faulkil

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 103
Author: IRVINETOMOE
Date: on 08/07/2012 12:51 PM PDT
Subject: Spell Store 2.0 (Suggestion)


Duration: 20 minutes

Type: Utility

There are times, in the heat of battle, where mana becomes a premium. One may not immediately have access to all of his or her magical resources due to this.

Using Spell Store, a Wizard can prepare a spell, invest its mana, and store the spell in the back of his or her mind for later use. Using the verb RECALL, the Wizard will immediately have the spell in a prepared state again, but will not incur a mana cost upon using it. The Wizard can use as many spells as desired while keeping a spell in Spell Store.

Training in Elemental Mana Control will allow a Wizard to store additional instances of the same spell. An additional cast is available at 20 ranks, 50 ranks, and every 50 after that, for a maximum 6 casts at 200 ranks.

Spells invoked from foreign Spell Circles can be stored, but incur a penalty, which is offset by training in the Major Elemental Circle. The default chance to succeed is 50%, with an additional +2% success for every rank of MjE, reaching 100% at rank 27.

Training in Elemental Lore will allow select Elemental spells a chance to be have their "charge" used when cast in such a manner. For instance, a Wizard trained in Fire Lore storing the Spell Immolation may find that upon using it, his understanding of the intricacies of the spell allows it to be RECALLed a second time, without preparation. This chance is based on SEED 6 of the summation chart, with 1% chance at Rank 6, finishing at 15% chance at 195 ranks in Elemental Lore.

Usage: Prepare and cast Spell Store. For 30 seconds, any spell prepared will be stored, and incur the standard mana cost immediately. RECALL will bring the spell back to the mind of the Wizard, and casting the spell will cost no mana.


All the specifics are just ideas for general concepts. The lore benefits and additional gains for the spell are just concepts, subject to as much change or even removal as the GMs see fit. I just felt that I might make this suggestion.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 104
Author: HOUSERA
Date: on 10/02/2012 11:40 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Spell Store 2.0 (Suggestion)


Neat idea. Doesn't take away from what Spell Store already does, but makes it much more useful.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 105
Author: JWOLFE
Date: on 10/05/2012 11:49 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Spell Store 2.0 (Suggestion)


I remember always thinking spell store was rather useless.

This idea is great. :)

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 106
Author: BLACKKOBOLD
Date: on 10/08/2012 07:54 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Spell Store 2.0 (Suggestion)


Or maybe let the recalled spell to be cast without cast RT as well as for no mana. This would allow some interesting possibilities. For instance, you could store major cold and macro recalling and casting immediately followed by incanting fire for an instant ice/fire combo to shatter stone creatures. Or just a good way to front-load a big hit. It'd definitely get used a lot more!

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 107
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 03/29/2013 01:14 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Spell Store 2.0 (Suggestion)


^ This

Or have it let the next spell cast cost 0 mana, with a 30-60 second cooldown or something, at least on spells above X level.

Having no cooldown for spells under a certain level would help low level mages out drastically, and having a cooldown for higher level spells would help when you need to squeeze out just one more cast but don't have enough mana for it, making it useful for everybody without being overpowered.

Or if you want to make it more fun, make it a warding spell that will make the critter attack itself on the next round. Shuffle around some spell slots (504, 512, etc.) if needed if a level 2 slot is too low for that. This would be mostly just for lulz.

If it were up to me, I'd make 502 a cross realm teleport spell with no reagents or cost or cooldown associated with it. Just let us fly everywhere. Not OP. Not OP at all.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 108
Author: TRIDIUS
Date: on 04/07/2013 09:55 PM PDT
Subject: my 3 cents


Ok, I'm going to throw my 2 cents in here. Actually, 3 cents since I have 3 things I would like to see.

1. change 502 into another bolt spell, since the 500 sphere only has 2 natural bolt spells (510 & 518). If you want to get technical, it can have 3, but 505 is not a natural bolt spell. What I would prefer to see is another earthly bolt spell, since 510 is the only bolt spell that deals with the earth sphere that a wizard can cast. you could even make it a pure elemental bolt spell that is influenced by either A.) your attuned element or B.) your highest trained elemental sphere. in essence, it could be 5 different spells in one, however each wizard would get a different spell dependent on their training/attuned element. i've been waiting for something like this ever since i read "and access to spells that are not available to those ignorant of the secrets of <element> magic." (pulled from http://www.play.net/gs4/info/skills.asp#elemlore)

2.) if it must stay as some sort of spell store, why not make it a powersink? after casting, prepare the next spell and infuse more mana into the spell, creating a stronger version of the spell at a greater mana cost. Similar to 117, but instead of increasing AS it increases the damage factor depending on the amount of mana sunk into it. Granted, we are always trying to find ways to conserve our mana, but i think having a bigger damage factor like this can at least come in handy for things such as invasions, kill dangerous creature bounty, grimswarms, or if something higher level wanders into your hunting area.

3. I would love to see 550 be a spell that turns the caster into an elemental being, greatly increasing that element's power but making the caster susceptible to the converse element (such as fire/ice). there are plenty of ways to keep casters from staying elemental, such as losing access to spells while in the form, permanently destroying armor/runestaff, destroying items worn, losing items in containers, berserking (becoming stuck in offensive), draining mana/stamina ... i could go on ... and plenty of benefits that could be added on for being in elemental form. since we are made to be masters of the elements, let us be masters of them. it's not much different than assume aspect, but i think it could be quite an interesting addition for both role players and power hunters.

All of these would work perfectly for the major elemental circle. Again, just my 3 cents.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 109
Author: BLACKKOBOLD
Date: on 04/08/2013 09:08 AM PDT
Subject: Re: my 3 cents


Why not blend the two ideas and kill off a few redundant spells while we're at it. I see no reason why it needs to be placed in the 502 slot either. Kill 502, but also kill all single-cast natural bolts. Consolidate them into a single spell. Likewise consolidate ball spells into a single spell. And expand the cone functionality.

Here's the idea:

901 - Elemental bolt

Usage: prepare/incant 901/elemental bolt <Element Name> <# of additional mana from 0-9 points>

Element types would of course include the basic elements currently available to wizards, but could be expanded via lore training to include more exotic elemental types. For instance, combination water/fire lore could unlock steam as an element. A certain amount of fire lore could unlock plasma. And so on.

The amount of additional mana allowed could perhaps be linked to harness power/EMC skill in such a way as to create a clear progression over time. No more giving 10 mana spells to characters with only 30 mana available to use! But as a tradeoff for this limitation DF could be made variable. The idea here is that DF is linked to trained skill thresholds such that the cost for the same DF is higher as you gain levels, but your potential damage ceiling is also higher. The maximum cost of elemental bolt would be 10 mana, but it would be far more flexible in that it would allow any element to produce results similar to 910/510. At the low end you should be able to spend relatively small amounts of mana to produce better results. This should be matched to realistic expectations for mana so that we aren't starving our young wizards and forcing them to swing a weapon for their introductory period as is often the case today. And like it is now, I don't expect a high level wizard would always wish to spend the maximum amount of mana. Sometimes 5 or 6 mana will do. It depends upon the target! This spell has all the flexibility we need.

Now apply the same thing to ball spells. A single spell that allows the wizard to choose an element, with additional lore unlocks, and variable DF based upon trained skills.

And maybe cone spells. But you may wish to consider placing some skill requirements on additional targets and perhaps a cooldown to avoid the issue of too many cones in too short a time during events! Please don't use MOC. Make it a lore requirement perhaps. Base number of targets, increased by lores, with the advantage of being able to choose your preferred element.

I also like the idea of being able to temporarily boost AS with these spells. It'd perhaps be a nice touch for a lore unlock with a cooldown. You can use the boost if you have sufficient skill in the element you're using, but then you can't use the boost again for a short period of time. That shouldn't be too powerful. It'll just help when you have a particularly tough target. And the cost is appropriate.

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 110
Author: BLACKKOBOLD
Date: on 04/08/2013 09:09 AM PDT
Subject: Re: my 3 cents


Also, if you do make this idea reality, how about some saved settings so you can set mana/element for future use?

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 111
Author: LORDEVARIN
Date: on 04/08/2013 10:08 AM PDT
Subject: Re: my 3 cents


Add to this list a Mass Slow option for 504, or at least a multi-target version.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 112
Author: BLACKKOBOLD
Date: on 04/08/2013 10:34 AM PDT
Subject: Re: my 3 cents


Yeah, 504 isn't all that useful against a solitary opponent. You're usually better off using a killing or disabling spell. But against multiple opponents and in combination with RT-inducing CC, a mass version of slow could be a far more useful spell. You'd definitely see a lot more use of this spell!

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 113
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 04/13/2013 01:23 AM PDT
Subject: Re: my 3 cents


Slow should cause an initial RT when cast on a target.

502 should either make the next spell cast either be free or have reduced mana cost. Or either make your next spell double cast, or grant a buff that gives you X chance for your spells to double cast, and the buff goes away when a double cast occurs.

502 is so useless right now that it could be changed to restore 1 mana at the cost of 2 mana and it would still be more useful than it is now.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 114
Author: LORDEVARIN
Date: on 04/13/2013 05:45 AM PDT
Subject: Re: my 3 cents


Spell store would be nice if it actually banked a spell so that you could cast several at once. Initial value of 1 extra, eventually leading to 2 or 3 extra plus your first.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 115
Author: LORDEVARIN
Date: on 04/13/2013 06:45 AM PDT
Subject: Re: my 3 cents


As for another improvement idea, why not make a pre-cast spell that makes your bolt MUCH harder to evade/block/parry? I doubt the EVP system was designed to screw over bolters, as there is no such balancing act for warding based magic. There would be a cost associated with the spell, whatever is appropriate without being excessive. 502 seems as good a slot as any.

Prep 502, then prep the bolt spell you wish to enhance. When you cast the bolt, an added cost appropriate to the level of bolt along with whatever training you have to mitigate it is factored into the final tally of the spell.

Simple, useful, and not overpowered. No worries about upsetting creature balance as they wouldn't be casting this spell at players.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 116
Author: DRAFIX
Date: on 06/07/2013 02:54 AM PDT
Subject: 511 - The unsuspecting gem gobbler


Could 511 be updated so that it doesn't automatically eat the gem in your hand but instead require you to cast AT the gem to do that coloured disk effect? I sadly keep losing random gems because I forgot I had it in my hand. This time it was a rift black diamond that I didn't shove back in my pouch before realizing I forgot to cast a disk. :/

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 117
Author: WINTERMYST
Date: on 07/15/2014 09:46 AM PDT
Subject: Mana and spells


Would it be possible to implement a store mana spell that could be cast at a familiar, like sorcerers can do with their demons?

~Shi'larra One bold fella breaks from the chain and climbs up on Brinret's chest, grabbing a hold of the tufts of hair on both sides of his head and holding him still! A fat, wet kiss is placed before the monkey disappears

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 118
Author: GAROFALOA
Date: on 06/07/2015 05:58 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Spell Store 2.0 (Suggestion)


hey, spell store is useful for me. especially when I know my favorite sheruvian cleric is lurking. =0

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 119
Author: CAELRIC
Date: on 08/22/2015 07:09 PM PDT
Subject: Haste Duration Change?


I noticed that when I eat haste edibles, the duration is 2 minutes, but when I cast haste, it ends up lasting just over a minute. Is this a change, esp. WRT the haste edibles?

-Taakhooshi, and Me

For the Story of Taakhooshi: http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Taakhooshi

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 120
Author: GS4-IXIX
Date: on 08/27/2015 06:54 AM PDT
Subject: HSN: ELR - 501 (Sleep) Updated


Sleep, 501, has been updated for the ELR. A seed 1 summation of Elemental Lore, Air provides for a chance for the target to be groggy (-20 AS/DS and 2 second slow) when (or if!) they wake up. The grogginess lasts for 10 seconds.

That is all.

Ixix

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 121
Author: DOUG
Date: on 08/27/2015 06:59 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - 501 (Sleep) Updated


Details on 'the chance' please?

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 122
Author: GOLDENOAK2
Date: on 08/27/2015 07:04 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - 501 (Sleep) Updated


To be clear on this the seed summation is a percent value 1% per seed rank? And also, I assume its based on ranks, not bonus...but can you clarify that?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 123
Author: GS4-IXIX
Date: on 08/27/2015 07:07 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - 501 (Sleep) Updated


The percentage chance of the sleeper waking up groggy is the seed 1 summation of the caster's EL:A ranks. You will see messaging that indicates when somebody or something wakes up groggy.

Ixix

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 124
Author: DOUG
Date: on 08/27/2015 07:12 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - 501 (Sleep) Updated


Yes, I got that.

So what we're saying is 0% base chance, increasing a percentage point on Seed 1 Summation, to maximum bonus of 24 (perhaps 25) percent.

Accurate?

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 125
Author: GS4-IXIX
Date: on 08/27/2015 07:38 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - 501 (Sleep) Updated


Yes.

Ixix

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 126
Author: DOUG
Date: on 08/27/2015 07:51 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - 501 (Sleep) Updated


Gratzie a mille!

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 127
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 08/27/2015 07:58 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - 501 (Sleep) Updated


Can we sleepwalk and talk about random mostly unintelligible babble if we cast Sleep on ourselves? Similar to the babbling you do when you drink too much death rum, but you'll walk around doing it. Like a zombie.

If not, I'll settle for self cast sleep invoking old school Symbol of Dreams as an appropriate consolation.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 128
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 08/27/2015 08:03 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - 501 (Sleep) Updated


If the target was intoxicated when we put them to sleep can the chance for grogginess be doubled and the result be 'hangover' instead of 'grogginess'? (-20AS/-20DS and subject to stun/rage/fleeing from load noises and bright lights)?

Like this change!

-- Robert

"All wizards are beginners; some of us have just been beginning longer!"

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 129
Author: RROY
Date: on 08/27/2015 10:58 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - 501 (Sleep) Updated


Nice little perk on sleep, thanks!

Just an elf about town...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 130
Author: DRAFIX
Date: on 08/27/2015 01:45 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - 501 (Sleep) Updated


So if I understand correctly,

501 the target, then attack it and it will have additional -20 AS/DS ontop of being offensive, and prone (-50 DS)?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 131
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 08/27/2015 01:56 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - 501 (Sleep) Updated


I think prone/offensive is as good as it ever gets.

After it wakes up/stands up, that's when you'll see the lingering -20 effect, to simulate it still being mildly under the influence.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 132
Author: BLACKKOBOLD
Date: on 08/27/2015 02:10 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - 501 (Sleep) Updated


I kinda wish they would reduce the cost and/or the threshold for success. The fact that you need a +130 to put the target to sleep and the variable mana cost makes this a pretty expensive spell for the effect. You're almost always better off just using a spell like ewave or call wind (if you need the stance change).

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 134
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 08/27/2015 03:23 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - 501 (Sleep) Updated


Especially since it's single target compared to those other disablers which will handle the whole room. I'd like to see the mana cost max out at around 5 or 6.

I kinda wish we had this effect when warding between 100-125. As when the spell actually lands, the aftermath is usually pretty swift in my favor. But warding at 110 gets me nowhere.


Also I notice they have no problem making drastic changes downward but all these lore effects thus far seem extremely timid. 10% proc rates to effects that are marginal to begin with. 200 ranks for 20% chance? That's a big meh. You could make it 100% and this effect would still be inferior to our other disable spells.


And this is from someone who kinda likes sleep! I use it when I can because I think it's cool, but it is often an inferior choice.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 135
Author: DRAFIX
Date: on 08/27/2015 03:58 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - 501 (Sleep) Updated


lulz once again this is not a spell review... it's lore review.. which means they're trying not to change the spells fundamentals at all. Don't get your hopes up...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 136
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 08/27/2015 10:31 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - 501 (Sleep) Updated


?? I'm not asking for a spell review. But having the lore contribute in a meaningful way seems like that would fit into the realm of ELR. Lore making a spell better is the point right? Froo froo stuff that never makes any difference... I guess I just don't see the point.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 137
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 08/27/2015 10:47 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - 501 (Sleep) Updated


Maybe I should pose it as question. If the creature wakes up from sleeping to being stunned in prone (ie: slept, then crit), will the DS be further suppressed by 20?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 138
Author: GS4-IXIX
Date: on 08/28/2015 06:34 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - 501 (Sleep) Updated


Yes, the grogginess is separate from and can stack with any other status effect type penalties that might be applied to a critter (or you). As long as you see the new messaging, the penalties should be applied and in effect.

Ixix

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 139
Author: RROY
Date: on 08/28/2015 07:35 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - 501 (Sleep) Updated


I'd like to see it have some buff if I'm under hunting a bit. At same level stick with groggy as it is now, but lose 1% for each level above and gain 1% for each level below. Something along those lines along with the Lore perk.

Just an elf about town...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 140
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 08/28/2015 08:07 AM PDT
Subject: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


Hi everybody! (Skip down to == MECHANICS == if you don't want to read my ramblings)

This is not a water lore update, in fact it's not any kind of a lore update! That's right, you heard me. There are NO LORE ADDITIONS in today's spell update, but have no fear, I'm still doing something as watery as I can... So, let's talk Ice Patch. It makes patches of ice (Appropriately named) that make things hilariously fall to the ground so that everyone around can have a good laugh. Humor is great, but let's make it even better! Every once in a while you might find yourself mucking around in a bog, eyeing your destination and thinking to yourself, "If only I could just hop up and walk right over this bog I wouldn't have to get my robes dirty..." Wouldn't that be great?!

Have I got the thing for you!

MECHANICS

The surface of water can now be frozen when Ice Patch is cast, which will mimic the Water Walking (112) spell for that one room. This affect applies to all players as long as the ice patch is in the room (Not just the caster or the caster's group, although keep in mind that ice patches don't last very long once the caster is gone).

Additionally, the targeted version of the spell was updated to instantly deal cold critical damage. The purpose of this is to hopefully make the setup of using Minor Cold less clunky for water mages.

Questions? Comments? Love? Hate? CANDY? All of those things are welcome.

(Note: I'm not going to give a list of rooms that this affects. Try it out and see. If you do find areas that aren't affected by this that you think should be, let me know!)

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 141
Author: DEANSMITH
Date: on 08/28/2015 08:13 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


Wow, no lore changes just...better?

Sounds good!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 142
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 08/28/2015 08:21 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


Is this intentional? The messaging seems contradictory to the ineffectual result.

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Ice Patch... Your spell is ready. You gesture at an imposing fire giant champion. An airy mist quickly gathers around an imposing fire giant champion. 

 CS: +554 - TD: +438 + CvA: +25 + d100: +18 == +159
 Warding failed!

The mist leaves the entire lower half of an imposing fire giant champion's body encased in a thick block of ice. 

  ... 15 points of damage!
  A frosty blow to the neck.  Bet that smarts!

[Spell re-prepared] Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. >rel You feel the magic of your spell rush away from you. >inc 904 An imposing fire giant champion points a flaming hand at you! An imposing fire giant champion hurls a roaring ball of fire at you! 

 AS: +419 vs DS: +765 with AvD: +59 + d100 roll: +38 = -249
  A clean miss.



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 143
Author: LORDKRIP
Date: on 08/28/2015 08:25 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


Can I walk between the Landing and Teras? I JAYKAY...

I love updates like these the most, oddly. Environmental interaction FTW.


Peace cannot be kept by force; it can only be achieved by understanding. - Albert Einstein

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 144
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 08/28/2015 08:35 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


>The surface of water can now be frozen when Ice Patch is cast, which will mimic the Water Walking (112) spell for that one room. This affect applies to all players as long as the ice patch is in the room (Not just the caster or the caster's group, although keep in mind that ice patches don't last very long once the caster is gone).

Excuse me if I'm missing the obvious, but how exactly does this help when one has to walk INTO the room first to cast the spell, when the purpose behind using water walking is to counteract the environmental effects of the room BEFORE entry? For example, if I'm walking on the EN trail and go through the swamp, this means the wizard will have to be the one to suffer the RT in each swamp room, then cast ice patch for any followers? This seems useless, as everyone in the party will have to wait out the same RT in any case for the wizard to move ahead for each step.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 145
Author: ERYKK2
Date: on 08/28/2015 08:39 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


== MECHANICS ==
The surface of water can now be frozen when Ice Patch is cast, which will mimic the Water Walking (112) spell for that one room. This affect applies to all players as long as the ice patch is in the room (Not just the caster or the caster's group, although keep in mind that ice patches don't last very long once the caster is gone).
Additionally, the targeted version of the spell was updated to instantly deal cold critical damage. The purpose of this is to hopefully make the setup of using Minor Cold less clunky for water mages.
Questions? Comments? Love? Hate? CANDY? All of those things are welcome.
(Note: I'm not going to give a list of rooms that this affects. Try it out and see. If you do find areas that aren't affected by this that you think should be, let me know!)
~ Konacon

How about a self-cast version that mimics 112 for a standard spell duration? With losing haste, this would be a nice addition when walking through swamps. Having to cast it in every single swamp room (On the trail from WL to EN for example) is clunky.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 146
Author: GOLDENOAK2
Date: on 08/28/2015 08:43 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


>>Excuse me if I'm missing the obvious, but how exactly does this help when one has to walk INTO the room first to cast the spell, when the purpose behind using water walking is to counteract the environmental effects of the room BEFORE entry? For example, if I'm walking on the EN trail and go through the swamp, this means the wizard will have to be the one to suffer the RT in each swamp room, then cast ice patch for any followers? This seems useless, as everyone in the party will have to wait out the same RT in any case for the wizard to move ahead for each step.>>

I could see it being useful in maelstrom bay if you have the mana and just want to waste it. Personally, swimming would probably be cheaper than recasting every room...but since its a free upgrade its all good. Say, would this mean you could drag a body through some of the watery isolated areas that were undraggable before...Like Maelstrom Bay?

also if it could be a floating iceburg you could ride...Booyah! I have a magic Island...neener neener!

Tell familiar drag island north. Get to work minion!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 147
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 08/28/2015 08:43 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


I'm pretty sure you suffer the effects when trying to leave the room. So you can enter each room, cast the spell, then move on to the next room without suffering the effects.

-- Robert

"All wizards are beginners; some of us have just been beginning longer!"

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 148
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 08/28/2015 08:44 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


> Is this intentional? The messaging seems contradictory to the ineffectual result.

This is a fair point. The messaging "The mist leaves the entire lower half of an imposing fire giant champion's body encased in a thick block of ice." is indicating the root effect being applied to the target and is completely separate from the damage that the spell does. Do you think it should be messaged after the damage rather than before to read better?

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 149
Author: GOLDENOAK2
Date: on 08/28/2015 08:46 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


This is a fair point. The messaging "The mist leaves the entire lower half of an imposing fire giant champion's body encased in a thick block of ice." is indicating the root effect being applied to the target and is completely separate from the damage that the spell does. Do you think it should be messaged after the damage rather than before to read better?

~ Konacon>>

Might be better if you indicate something like additional shards of ice erupt from the ground striking ... for x damage.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 150
Author: LORDKRIP
Date: on 08/28/2015 08:47 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


Maybe it just shouldn't do anything more than effect the legs/abdomen/back with the ice critical damage...

I am curious what happens if the ice critical happens to cause a crit that comes with knockdown, but the ice encasing it... mindsplosion



Peace cannot be kept by force; it can only be achieved by understanding. - Albert Einstein

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 151
Author: DEANSMITH
Date: on 08/28/2015 08:48 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


>Do you think it should be messaged after the damage rather than before to read better?

Yes, that would definitely read better.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 152
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 08/28/2015 08:48 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


I wonder if this would mitigate the environmental hazards around Teras where you occasionally slip through the crust on the lava flows...

>> also if it could be a floating iceburg you could ride...Booyah! I have a magic Island...neener neener!

And yeah, creating a floating iceburg that you could sail/row you and your group across the bay would be super awesome. Make it so Konacon!

-- Robert

"All wizards are beginners; some of us have just been beginning longer!"

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 153
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 08/28/2015 08:49 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


>I'm pretty sure you suffer the effects when trying to leave the room. So you can enter each room, cast the spell, then move on to the next room without suffering the effects.

This isn't true.

>This is a fair point. The messaging "The mist leaves the entire lower half of an imposing fire giant champion's body encased in a thick block of ice." is indicating the root effect being applied to the target and is completely separate from the damage that the spell does. Do you think it should be messaged after the damage rather than before to read better?

My point was that the messaging implied the creature was somehow immobilized, while that wasn't the case as it immediately attempted an attack. Also, the damage seems exceptionally small for a 159 endroll, especially on a fire creature that has the largest vulnerability to cold damage.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 154
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 08/28/2015 08:51 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


>> >I'm pretty sure you suffer the effects when trying to leave the room. So you can enter each room, cast the spell, then move on to the next room without suffering the effects.

>> This isn't true.

Okay then yeah. I'm at a loss.

-- Robert

"All wizards are beginners; some of us have just been beginning longer!"

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 155
Author: LORDKRIP
Date: on 08/28/2015 08:52 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


>>My point was that the messaging implied the creature was somehow immobilized, while that wasn't the case as it immediately attempted an attack.<

Just the lower half of the creature (it can't move from the room and I believe it loses some evasion DS). They can still attack, cast, and make rude gestures and comments.


Peace cannot be kept by force; it can only be achieved by understanding. - Albert Einstein

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 156
Author: GOLDENOAK2
Date: on 08/28/2015 08:53 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


>>My point was that the messaging implied the creature was somehow immobilized, while that wasn't the case as it immediately attempted an attack. Also, the damage seems exceptionally small for a 159 endroll, especially on a fire creature that has the largest vulnerability to cold damage.>>

Doesn't Ice patch work like that necrotic snake maneuver where you can't walk around, but can still attack? Seems I read that somewhere in the wiki.

Incidentally that snake maneuver at least is really annoying because you cant kick while its going on.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 157
Author: GOLDENOAK2
Date: on 08/28/2015 08:55 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


>>They can still attack, cast, and make rude gestures and comments. >>

Nothing stops the comments unless they invent an ice gag spell that fills their mouth with a big chunk of ice...works like silence but causes extreme headaches from brain freeze as well.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 158
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 08/28/2015 08:57 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


>> I'm pretty sure you suffer the effects when trying to leave the room. So you can enter each room, cast the spell, then move on to the next room without suffering the effects.

> This isn't true.

Test it out in various places, if you're interested, and let me know where it is doing this. I'm more than happy to look into anything you come across.

> My point was that the messaging implied the creature was somehow immobilized, while that wasn't the case as it immediately attempted an attack.

It's rooted, not stunned. If you have a suggestion for how to improve this messaging, please let me know.

> Also, the damage seems exceptionally small for a 159 endroll, especially on a fire creature that has the largest vulnerability to cold damage.

As to this, it's still meant to be a setup for turning Minor Water into Minor Cold with water lore, and/or as a means to apply a root to the target. Given that, the damage is not meant to be very high, but I'm planning on keeping an eye on it.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 159
Author: GOLDENOAK2
Date: on 08/28/2015 09:01 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


If you hit something in the leg after it's ice patched can there be a chance for the leg to shatter explosively and painfully...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 160
Author: ASHRAAM
Date: on 08/28/2015 09:09 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


I really wish that you could freeze a target with sufficient warding end-roll and water lore and then shatter them using impact attacks (i.e. Tonis Bolt).

512 + 505 (17 mana) to have the effect of spells like 717 where if the warding is sufficiently high enough, in 2 casts you can shatter an opponent. That would be an amazing Ice Mage playstyle and super fun, very dynamic, and would allow for a lot of end-game diversity.

Food for thought!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 161
Author: ERYKK2
Date: on 08/28/2015 09:09 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


How about a self-cast 10 minute duration that mimics the effects of 112? We're losing haste to deal with the Swamp RT, why not give us a replacement?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 162
Author: KARDIOS
Date: on 08/28/2015 09:11 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


>> The surface of water can now be frozen when Ice Patch is cast, which will mimic the Water Walking (112) spell for that one room. This affect applies to all players as long as the ice patch is in the room (Not just the caster or the caster's group, although keep in mind that ice patches don't last very long once the caster is gone). >>

Is it safe to cast electrical spells in a watery room while the water is frozen?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 163
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 08/28/2015 09:12 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


> Is it safe to cast electrical spells in a watery room while the water is frozen?

It is not. Though that is also some food for thought...

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 164
Author: LORDKRIP
Date: on 08/28/2015 09:14 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


>>It is not. Though that is also some food for thought...<

Omnomnom -- sounds delicious


Peace cannot be kept by force; it can only be achieved by understanding. - Albert Einstein

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 165
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 08/28/2015 09:18 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


>> > My point was that the messaging implied the creature was somehow immobilized, while that wasn't the case as it immediately attempted an attack.

>> It's rooted, not stunned. If you have a suggestion for how to improve this messaging, please let me know.

Current message: The mist leaves the entire lower half of an imposing fire giant champion's body encased in a thick block of ice.

Not that I think anything is wrong with the current messaging but possibly the version below capture the same flavor but is easier to read quickly in combat scroll to determine the effect (rooted to the spot). The current message, if read quickly, could lead one to simply see 'encased in a thick block of ice' and make a different assumption.

Suggested message: The mist forms a thick block of ice around the imposing fire giant champion entire lower half rooting it to the spot.

Just a proposal since you asked for suggestions.

-- Robert

"All wizards are beginners; some of us have just been beginning longer!"

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 166
Author: DEANSMITH
Date: on 08/28/2015 09:18 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


>As to this, it's still meant to be a setup for turning Minor Water into Minor Cold with water lore, and/or as a means to apply a root to the target. Given that, the damage is not meant to be very high, but I'm planning on keeping an eye on it.

I like the update.

The only problem I have with the spell is the same one I had before: The 'Rooted' status effect kinda sucks.

Honestly, I'd prefer NO damage if I can guarantee that I will keep my target occupied long enough so I can even attempt to start casting Minor Water.

Instead of THIS:

You gesture at a Grimswarm troll guard. An airy mist quickly gathers around a Grimswarm troll guard. The dull golden nimbus surrounding a Grimswarm troll guard suddenly begins to glow brightly. 

 CS: +Blah - TD: +Blah + CvA: +8 + d100: +52 == +155
 Warding failed!

The mist leaves the entire lower half of a Grimswarm troll guard's body encased in a thick block of ice. 

  ... 15 points of damage!
  Chilly blast to the chest causes heart to skip a beat.

Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

I would prefer something like THIS:

You gesture at a Grimswarm troll guard. An airy mist quickly gathers around a Grimswarm troll guard. The dull golden nimbus surrounding a Grimswarm troll guard suddenly begins to glow brightly. 

 CS: +Blah - TD: +Blah + CvA: +8 + d100: +52 == +155
 Warding failed!

>A Grimswarm troll guard shudders as the mist begins to restrict its movements. (+3 to +7 seconds RT) The mist leaves the entire lower half of a Grimswarm troll guard's body encased in a thick block of ice. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

This would allow it to be a better single target setup spell.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 167
Author: GOLDENOAK2
Date: on 08/28/2015 09:21 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


What happens if ice patch is cast on a prone creature...does it get frozen to the ground...does its head get encased in ice causing it to die?

If it falls face first does it's tongue get stuck to the ground if it tries to cast a spell...

just curious

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 168
Author: ERYKK2
Date: on 08/28/2015 09:23 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


I really wish that you could freeze a target with sufficient warding end-roll and water lore and then shatter them using impact attacks (i.e. Tonis Bolt).
512 + 505 (17 mana) to have the effect of spells like 717 where if the warding is sufficiently high enough, in 2 casts you can shatter an opponent. That would be an amazing Ice Mage playstyle and super fun, very dynamic, and would allow for a lot of end-game diversity.
Food for thought!

I really like this idea. A "water mage" shouldn't be any less combat effective than a "fire mage".

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 169
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 08/28/2015 09:23 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


>>A Grimswarm troll guard shudders as the mist begins to restrict its movements. (+3 to +7 seconds RT)

How would that be anything but a 12 mana, warding based version of 504?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 170
Author: DEANSMITH
Date: on 08/28/2015 09:32 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


>How would that be anything but a 12 mana, warding based version of 504?

Was slow updated to immediately put a target into up to 7 seconds of RT?

The point should be to debilitate the target with root and maintain the advantage so that you have a chance use the major cold perk without being attacked first, like in the example you posted.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 171
Author: OM1E5GA
Date: on 08/28/2015 09:42 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


'

I don't really have an opinion on whether or not 512 should do this since I don't have a wizard.... but dragging folk across Maelstrom Bay with it would just be a waste of mana (unless you intend on dragging bodies from town out into the wilds for some reason, but you'd still have to get them up the trail). Just drag the body into the bay and it will wash up onto the dock on the other side in a minute or so (might have to roll the body down the trail into the bay, it's been a long time since I brought a body to town without using spells or Voln).

It WOULD be useful for dragging bodies though marshy areas that incur a RT if you walk through them without 112 up though.... like the area outside the Keep or in Vipershroud.

Starchitin

A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 172
Author: GOLDENOAK2
Date: on 08/28/2015 09:49 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


>>I don't really have an opinion on whether or not 512 should do this since I don't have a wizard.... but dragging folk across Maelstrom Bay with it would just be a waste of mana (unless you intend on dragging bodies from town out into the wilds for some reason, but you'd still have to get them up the trail). Just drag the body into the bay and it will wash up onto the dock on the other side in a minute or so (might have to roll the body down the trail into the bay, it's been a long time since I brought a body to town without using spells or Voln). >>

Hmm. Didn't know this mechanic existed...I always got stumped trying to get a body from the area on the other side of the bay...until I mastered Voln.

They need to post a sign...please don't push corpses into bay! or something so you know its possible.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 173
Author: ERYKK2
Date: on 08/28/2015 09:54 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


Not sure if people are reading both folders but I suggested that:

504 - Gains the RT weapon reduction that 506 currently offers. Includes the currently proposed 506 additions, mana cost scales up 4/8/16/32 for additional casts during the cooldown period. 60s duration, increased by EL:Air ranks in the same way 506 currently is. EL:Earth reduces the cooldown, (or mana cost, or both).

506 changes to:

506 - Loses the RT weapon reduction currently provided, be retains all other benefits currently provided by the spell.

506 speeds up our ability to react to situations. 504 slows down a creatures ability to react to us.

Both would be self-cast only. We're just splitting the offensive ability off from the defensive ability.

It still prevents the 100% uptime that is stated to be a new requirement. It still allows it to be refreshed during the cooldown for additional mana costs. (It increases the mana costs even further if you want to stack offensive & defensive abilities.)

Wizards who want haste for defensive purposes don't lose anything. Warmages who want speedy attacks for offensive purposes lose a tiny bit less mana. It makes it slightly less painful for lower levels, but still heavily prevents that 100% uptime.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 176
Author: ALUVIUS
Date: on 08/28/2015 11:26 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


Is it safe to cast electrical spells in a watery room while the water is frozen?


That was my first thought when I read the update. I think that might be a neat addition to the spell, let it deal with more environmental effects like the watery conditions or maybe even condensing the gas out of the air in areas where fire/plasma can explode it.

Going further, this would also be a neat idea for other spells for other elements that would allow a mage specialized in an element to cast a setup spell and gain some neat effects from it .. ie, make Sandstorm useful to an earth lore specializing mage, etc.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 177
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 08/28/2015 12:33 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


I mean, the utility usage seems ok I guess. And the extra cold hit on cast can only be an improvement (though seeing 15 damage strikes isn't exactly wowing me).

But did you look at the mechanics of this spell at all for the update? The ice patch effect is still awful. I just tried it in arena and let every creature take a swing before I killed them. ONE fell.

ONE out of TWENTY-FIVE.

Is this an acceptable proc rate for 12 mana? Seems just terrible to me.

Do people use the CS version much? To what purpose? The creatures still attack so I don't much see the point.

To me this is one of the spells I always make fun of for being useless, I was kinda hoping that would be fixed with ELR, doesn't look like it (for me).

Suggestions: -increase the fall rate dramatically. -add a darkness type effect that lowers physical AS for everything in the room. (-20?) Swinging a weapon while standing on slippery ice sounds pretty hard to me. This would actually be terrible for me, a warmage, but I imagine the casters might find a use for it that way.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 178
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 08/28/2015 12:41 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - 501 (Sleep) Updated


Hey thanks for the response Ixix! And I even like the answer :)

I still wish it had higher scaling and could work on 100-125 wardings, but I might see some benefit from this ..oh...<checks charts> 6% of the time. (no chance getting something similar to 415 eh? air lore skill / 2?) Gotta try at least, thanks again Ixix.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 179
Author: ERYKK2
Date: on 08/28/2015 01:12 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


I don't think I've cast 512 once in 70 levels. I don't see that changing. Want me to cast the spell? Give me the same benefits as 112. It makes sense. I freeze the water as I walk upon it. There should be an elemental counterpart to the spiritual spell.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 180
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 08/28/2015 02:01 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


I really like the idea of making a room safe to use lightning for the duration of this spell.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 181
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 08/28/2015 02:34 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


LADYFLEUR
Also, the damage seems exceptionally small for a 159 endroll, especially on a fire creature that has the largest vulnerability to cold damage.

You were correct, it was actually lower than I had intended. The damage on targeted 512 has been adjusted and should look much more reasonable now.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 182
Author: GOLDENOAK2
Date: on 08/28/2015 02:39 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


You were correct, it was actually lower than I had intended. The damage on targeted 512 has been adjusted and should look much more reasonable now.

~ Konacon>>

So even though lore isn't required for the effect, does water lore boost it any? Just curious

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 183
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 08/28/2015 08:07 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


I'm not exactly sure how this is supposed to work as I find the idea slightly confusing, but I can't seem to notice any effect casting this at Lake Marliese.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 184
Author: BLACKKOBOLD
Date: on 08/28/2015 08:17 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


This would have been cooler if it worked like the WoW death knight ability "Path of Frost", which freezes the water in an area around you so anyone in your group can walk over water as if it were solid ground. But still a neat little effect. But Ice Patch needs more. The base spell for combat still totally sucks!

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 185
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 08/28/2015 08:39 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


I've been playing with it all day to try and find a use for it but so far I'm coming up empty. I'm a little confused as to why you would modify a spell and not fix the glaring problems with it. Same issue I have with the 418 spell. Although at least with this one it didn't get measurably worse so ...

ELR woo!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 186
Author: GS4-CYRAEX
Date: on 08/29/2015 01:28 PM PDT
Subject: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


The following update has been made to Stone Skin (520). Training in Elemental Lore, Earth provides a % chance, using a seed 9 summation, for a reactive vibration flares to occur when struck with an AS/DS attack.

Enjoy!

GameMaster Cyraex

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 187
Author: ERYKK2
Date: on 08/29/2015 01:37 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


The following update has been made to Stone Skin (520). Training in Elemental Lore, Earth provides a % chance, using a seed 9 summation, for a reactive vibration flares to occur when struck with an AS/DS attack.
Enjoy!
GameMaster Cyraex

And as you can see Krakii, none of our suggestions are even being considered in the slightest.

Reactive vibe flares for a class that makes every attempt to not be hit because it's pretty much guaranteed death?

009 ranks = 1
019 ranks = 2
030 ranks = 3
042 ranks = 4
055 ranks = 5
069 ranks = 6
084 ranks = 7
100 ranks = 8
117 ranks = 9
135 ranks = 10
154 ranks = 11
174 ranks = 12
195 ranks = 13

100 ranks for an 8% chance for a reactive flare that will never trigger because as a Wizard you spell tank to avoid being hit.

I'm really starting to question who is designing these spells, and if they know anything about Wizards at all. They clearly have no idea what Wizards need, or how they play, or what efforts they take to stay alive, like having a DS high enough to not be hit.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 188
Author: ERYKK2
Date: on 08/29/2015 01:45 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


Let's compare this to 716:

When cast, the sorcerer creates a sickly miasmal aura around them self. All creatures that attack the sorcerer have a chance to contract the potentially deadly pestilence that flows through it. Upon attacking the sorcerer, there is a base 25% chance that the aura will reactively fire on the attacker, using a hidden CS roll. If the aura's attack hits, the attacker will take immediate rot damage (disintegrate), along with some disease damage (disintegrate) over time.
The spell has a standard spell duration (1200 seconds + 60 seconds per spell rank) and a set number of charges. The base is 5 charges, increasing by +1 per seed 9 summation of Sorcerous Lore, Necromancy. Once all charges are used up, the self-cast spell fades.

BASE of 25% vs our 0%

Same "reactive" flare type

Immediate damage, PLUS DoT damage

And the best part? Used for ANY attack, you don't have to actually be hit (and die) for it to react.

Where are our additions like this?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 189
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 08/29/2015 01:49 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


716 is ridiculous. It flares 30-40 damage per hit even on complete attack misses. This seed 9 and 10 thing on top of everything else just makes it just as useless as it was before.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 190
Author: TANDL
Date: on 08/29/2015 02:18 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


Do the reactive flares have the same strength as what is typically found in flaring armors?

Tal.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 191
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 08/29/2015 02:37 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


Unless the flare causes certain stun/death, this is a total waste of time and resources (for both mages and GMs).

I'm absolutely sure nobody suggested something like this on our forums because anyone who plays a wizard would find this change totally pointless. And there were a TON of good ideas for this spell on there, so I have to seriously question how these decisions are being made.


Every release brings my hype level down another notch. I started really high. I reactivated my account because I thought wizards were finally getting some love.

My litmus test spells were 418, 512, 514, 504, 520, 502 and 914 (all the really crap ones, basically) So far:

418 -> worse 512 -> lipstick on a pig 520 -> pointless

So far we're 0/3.

Meanwhile... haste -> at least 50% worse, maybe more immolation -> crit kill cut in half. rt part removed (the only part I cared about). rapid fire -> getting shot out back behind the shed

Boy do I feel silly.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 192
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 08/29/2015 02:38 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


ERYKK2
Reactive vibe flares for a class that makes every attempt to not be hit because it's pretty much guaranteed death?
I'm really starting to question who is designing these spells, and if they know anything about Wizards at all. They clearly have no idea what Wizards need, or how they play, or what efforts they take to stay alive, like having a DS high enough to not be hit.

I'm really starting to question if you ever played GemStone. No character makes an attempt to get hit, but every character does get hit eventually. When said scenario is true, reactive flares can trigger, and I'd rather have them than not have them, as they can disable the attacker.

And as noted many times, no spell by itself will generally make training a lore worth it. Would I train 100 ranks of EL:E for an 8% chance of reactive flares? No. But I would consider 100 EL:E ranks for 8% chance to negate all AS/DS attacks from 414, reduced haste cooldown, +AS from 509, +DF for 510, extra features from 514, extra charges and higher EBP penalty on 909, more targets for 917, able to enchant vibration flaring weapons, and other unreleased bonuses from 411, 412, 430, 507, 508, 902, 904, 905, 914.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 193
Author: GS4-CYRAEX
Date: on 08/29/2015 02:42 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


TANDL:
Do the reactive flares have the same strength as what is typically found in flaring armors?

Yes, the strength is the same as what you would find on a set of armor that has vibe flares.

GameMaster Cyraex

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 194
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 08/29/2015 02:50 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


That's a fair point about how lore works, Estild.

But how come our good spells are up for 'review' (ie: destruction) but when it comes to these complete stinkers that populate much of our lists it's all "that's not a lore problem"?!

This spell would be marginal at the 502 slot, having it in 520 is a total joke.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 195
Author: ERYKK2
Date: on 08/29/2015 02:53 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


I'm really starting to question if you ever played GemStone. No character makes an attempt to get hit, but every character does get hit eventually. When said scenario is true, reactive flares can trigger, and I'd rather have them than not have them, as they can disable the attacker.
And as noted many times, no spell by itself will generally make training a lore worth it. Would I train 100 ranks of EL:E for an 8% chance of reactive flares? No. But I would consider 100 EL:E ranks for 8% chance to negate all AS/DS attacks from 414, reduced haste cooldown, +AS from 509, +DF for 510, extra features from 514, extra charges and higher EBP penalty on 909, more targets for 917, able to enchant vibration flaring weapons, and other unreleased bonuses from 411, 412, 430, 507, 508, 902, 904, 905, 914.
GameMaster Estild

I can assure you I've played Gemstone, and I even have a level 70 Wizard as proof.

While no character makes an attempt to get hit, Pures, specifically Wizards make every effort possible to avoid getting hit, and when they do eventually get hit, it's pretty much guaranteed death. If you played a Wizard, you would know this. When said scenario happens, reactive flares aren't going to make a bit of difference. I'd rather have an update to the spell that is actually useful. Several updates were suggested. Why didn't you consider them? What about them didn't you like? Even using the same seed 9, changing the padding type would only give HCP at 135 ranks. That's dedication IMO. It would also take the FULL LEATHERS that we wear to what, BRIG coverage? I hardly think that's OP considering Empaths/Clerics can wear it pretty easily.

No spell may make training in lore worth it, but so far, no addition that has been added has made lore training worth training in. A change in padding type would have made that difference to me, I would have seen actual value in lores. An 8% chance to negate AS/DS attacks makes no difference, if you're spell tanking for DS and you don't get hit. Attempting to reduce the haste cooldown is pointless when it starts at 2 minutes. Once you no longer have the mana to renew haste, the hunt is over. Nobody is going to be standing around hunting for 2 minutes without haste. All you're doing is forcing people to make 2-4 minute hunts and then rest. +AS for 509? I think you said it was +8 at 66 ranks? +8 isn't enough to make a difference. +20 would be a difference though. 510? For a Warmage? After the new haste changes? Good luck having mana for that. 514/909/917/enchanting... You're trying to stack a bunch of insignificant changes to make lores appealing, and it's failing. Add some actually good benefits for the cost.

I really hope this comes off more as constructive criticism instead of complaining.

I think most of us were expecting much better than this. It's showing that you don't really understand what it's like to play a Wizard when you give 520 reactive vibe flares with a 0% base on a seed 9. (Look at 716 as an example of something good and useful.)

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 196
Author: DOUG
Date: on 08/29/2015 02:58 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


>> But I would consider 100 ranks for 8% chance to negate all AS/DS attacks from 414, reduced haste cooldown, +AS from 509, +DF for 510, extra features from 514, extra charges and higher EBP penalty on 909, more targets for 917, able to enchant vibration flaring weapons, and other unreleased bonuses from 411, 412, 430, 507, 508, 902, 904, 905, 914.

Well, ok, then. You have my attention.

I think the problem that I am personally struggling with is that I can't yet see (nor comprehend) the aggregate being positioned. I'm further hampered by choosing to make isolated comparisons like: 

- 8% chance to negate all AS / DS attacks (when contrasted to Cleric's spell of same type)
- Reduced haste cooldown (forced, rather than 'beneficial')
- AS from 509 (already in place, and doesn't help with archer mage anyway)
- DF for 510 (already in place)
- changes to 909 (now we're talkin'!)
- More targets for 917 (already in place)
- Enchant earth flares (nice, thank you)

The 520 addition may be interesting, I do get tagged from time to time. Effectiveness yet to be assessed. Yet, I'm sure you'll agree that it would be so much more powerful (move from 'nice, thank you' to 'now we're talkin'!' category) if it were closer to the Sorcerer spell - you know. . . trigger on anything, always, charges then has to be recast, etc. Not that it needs to be, but I don't see how that statement could brook any disagreement. And it's that in isolation comparison where this pales.

I hope you can understand, Estild - I will be happy to consider the aggregate when all is said and done. But in isolation, for me personally, we've had one smashing success, and a couple of potentials out of the new stuff. The in aggregate concept will have to pull down some pretty big 'smashing successes' to offset some of these isolated 'also ran' and 'nuisance' considerations. Uniqueness counts double!


Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 197
Author: CAELRIC
Date: on 08/29/2015 02:58 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


Let's compare this to 716:
(bunch of stuff from the 716 spell description)
BASE of 25% vs our 0%
Same "reactive" flare type
Immediate damage, PLUS DoT damage
And the best part? Used for ANY attack, you don't have to actually be hit (and die) for it to react.
Where are our additions like this?

As a sorc, I have to agree. If the vibration flares from 520 occurred on on misses like 716 and had the base 25% chance, or perhaps a base 0% with +1% per ranks/2 of earth lore, that would have been cool.

As many have already stated, given the light/no armor that a warmage is wearing, avoiding all hits is the key here, not having reactive if hit flares.

I mean, this change is better than nothing, but not much better.

-Taakhooshi, and Me

For the Story of Taakhooshi: http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Taakhooshi

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 199
Author: DOUG
Date: on 08/29/2015 03:06 PM PDT
Subject: Bug!


Cleaning my own errata.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 200
Author: BELTANE
Date: on 08/29/2015 03:19 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


Is there any way to change 520 so that the thickness of the stone skin is based on EL:E? For instance seed 5, 5 ranks of EL:E you only get the brittle messaging, and it only "absorbs" 12-20 dmg (I do not know how much damage this spell actually absorbs before shattering) before shattering and you have to recast it?

So by the time you get to a bonus of 6(45 ranks) you are guaranteed to get "A layer of very hard" which prevents X - X amount of damage before shattering and recasting.

So based on EL:E ranks, the layers messaging are standardized, as well as the damage absorption before shattering and recasting

From the wiki: Each time the spell is cast a descriptive message (see list below) indicating a level of hardness is displayed. However, *there is no mechanical significance to stone skin's hardness.* Damage absorption is based solely on the shatter point. Since the exact formula for the shatter point is known, the below formula which contains a large variable is of very limited usefulness. 

   A layer of brittle, shifting stone forms around you.
   A layer thin, shifting stone forms around you.
   A layer of thick, shifting stone forms around you.
   A layer of hard, shifting stone forms around you.
   A layer of very hard, shifting stone forms around you.

I probably worded this not quite well enough, hopefully someone else understands it. I believe a change like this would go well with the seed 9 vibe flares thing

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 201
Author: ERYKK2
Date: on 08/29/2015 03:24 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


One thing I overlooked, I do like the 909 addition. That is useful. It also comes with base charges, with lore increasing those charges. That is the type of value I want to see.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 202
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 08/29/2015 03:41 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


I think the proposed 909 spell is great.

The lore... again leaves me wondering in terms of value. (seed 4) / 2 leaves a lot to be desired. +8 at 200 ranks... oi vey.

But again, the 909 base spell looks terrific. It's the beacon of light for me in this whole mess.


Props to 415 EL:F change as well actually. That probably should have been on my litmus list along with 409. So we're at 1/4. Woo, go ELR! (I want to be a fan, really!)

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 203
Author: GOLDENOAK2
Date: on 08/29/2015 03:49 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


I know this is the ELR review and not an actual spell review, and I think that is one of the reasons so much of it seems to be falling flat for elemental magic users in general. Adding minor tweaks to what are essentially underpowered spells is not going to build confidence in people who see some of their most useful/powerful spells getting major downgrades. I think the most prevalent feeling is that these lore bonuses are just a bandaid for spells that currently don't perform to the standards one would expect for supposedly powerful spells....adding a flare to a crappy spell, just makes it a crappy spell with flares.

Take stoneskin for instance...I look at this spell and think the concept isn't bad as far as damage reduction/absorption...but I cannot see how this spell exists in a level 20 major spot. When I think level 20 major spell I think you should get some sort of bang for your buck.

If I had designed stone skin it would look something like this:

The total amount of damage potentially absorbed would be same as current spell

The damage absorption would happen BEFORE damage is measured against armor and critical effects are applied...meaning it is not the same as damage padding which does nothing to mitigate critical effects. The damage reduction per attack would be a minimum of 5% of remaining armor...If the damage reduction is more than the attack damage then the attack would do zero damage.

There would be a 5% + 2% per 20 ranks of earth lore that the attacker's weapon would shatter and the shrapnel would cause damage to the attacker or possibly with MoC ranks multiple opponents (similar to ball spells).

The reactive flares would work as designed per review but with an additional 4% chance from the base spell.

Channeling the spell (for around 5 mana) would restore a number of damage points to the available damage left in the spell...essentially healing the armor before it shatters.

To me, that would be a spell that would be worth 20 mana...it would be unique damage mitigation in that it is both critical and damage reduction...based on removing damage before anything else is calculated. It would have some potential to harm or weaken opponents by destroying their weapons and periodically flaring...its not hideously over powered in that it would only have a bit over 1 in 6 chance of breaking a weapon at maximum earth lore...

Anyways, some things to consider if you decide to redesign the spell itself.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 204
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 08/29/2015 03:54 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


Maybe if it were Seed4/2 for the SKILL, rather than the ranks... hell, with rounding, you would get +1 step benefit from a single rank of Lore.

And it's not like it would be terribly overpowering: even 300 skill would be only 21 step benefit, halved == 12. That's only +4 steps of benefit, for dumping full double-training in Lore into a single element. 

 (And exactly in line: 303 skill is half again as much, and 12 benefit is half again as much as 8 basing it on ranks.  This way, at least some of the lower guys would see some benefit out of it with a modest investment.)

.

GMs: "honest question" for you.

What is so goddamn horrible about the Wizards seeing some decent payoff from modest investment in Lores? 

 Many/most of the other professions see good payoff with a modest investment.  (I'm talking "modest" like ten (10) (that's TEN!) ranks == plus four (that's FOUR!) steps of benefit.  Like splashy ball spells, if nothing else.  1 + 2 + 3 + 4 == 10.)

Most Mages would not choose to dedicate to double in Lores, and have 40/10 each when they make Lord. But if they did turn down the occasional spell research or weapon rank or whatever like I've been espousing, having 4 steps of benefit in each of four elements would be a nice little carrot to dangle out there.

.

Lastly, I said it in private email, I'll repeat it here: open up the Testing Server so the Wizards can try things out over there with fast-migration for a weekend, before turning on the Reallocation. And in the live game, leave Reallocation open for a 48-hour period from when you first activate it so that tweaks can be made.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 205
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 08/29/2015 03:54 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


>> Is there any way to change 520 so that the thickness of the stone skin is based on EL:E? For instance seed 5, 5 ranks of EL:E you only get the brittle messaging, and it only "absorbs" 12-20 dmg (I do not know how much damage this spell actually absorbs before shattering) before shattering and you have to recast it?

I think the wording on the wikki is misleading. Both total absorbtion and the shatter point are influenced by EL:E. Here is the original message posted by Konacon (don't know the date of this post).


The total amount of damage that the spell can absorb is calculated as 20 + (Major Elemental Ranks - 20) + (Earth Lore Ranks / 2).

The shatter point is what affects the actual description (think, hard, etc.). It is calculated by 10 + (Major Elemental Ranks / 2) + (random number between 0 and 50, but if that's less than (Earth Lore Ranks / 6), use (Earth Lore Ranks / 6) instead). -- Konacon


So the more MjE or EL:E you have the more thickness you can expect to see from a given cast (MjE/2 is a direct improvement while more EL:E reduces the variability in your result by eliminating the lower range of possibility) . Also, a thicker description does indeed mean that you have a higher shatter point (contrary to what the wikki states).

-- Robert

"All wizards are beginners; some of us have just been beginning longer!"

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 206
Author: TGO01
Date: on 08/29/2015 04:05 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


> No character makes an attempt to get hit, but every character does get hit eventually.

Well, yeah. But the point is some characters can take the hits better than others, or if they fail the AS/DS roll they have parry (mastery), dodge, and block to fall back on to hopefully negate the attack altogether.

Other than a base parry chance wizards don't have any of that. How often is it really going to be useful to do a reactive flare as a wizard after failing an AS/DS attack?

>But I would consider 100 EL:E ranks for 8% chance to negate all AS/DS attacks from 414, reduced haste cooldown, +AS from 509, +DF for 510, extra features from 514, extra charges and higher EBP penalty on 909, more targets for 917, able to enchant vibration flaring weapons, and other unreleased bonuses from 411, 412, 430, 507, 508, 902, 904, 905, 914.

Does anyone actually use 510/514? I mean like, on a regular basis, and not just when they're bored?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 207
Author: ERYKK2
Date: on 08/29/2015 04:16 PM PDT
Subject: Fun new game! Guess the lore addition!


other unreleased bonuses from 411, 412, 430, 507, 508, 902, 904, 905, 914.

For 411, I'm guessing it will be +15 AS or less added (So like Seed 9 or 10) from EL:E and only gained when using an e-bladed weapon. (So probably a free 7x weapon with vibe flares if you have 2x lores.)

For 412, I'm guessing some kind of generic DS reduction based again on Seed 9 or 10. (So like, -12 DS at 2x EL:E, -8 DS at 108 ranks)

For 430, I'm guessing you can block or absorb 5% of the damage from earth attacks at 200 ranks.

For 902, I'm guessing at 2x lores you could cast this on a 4x or less enchant weapon.

For 904, I'm guessing some kind of splash with an insanely high lore cost.

For 905, Probably 1 DS for every 20 ranks of EL:E

For 914, It will probably have some kind of blinding effect to reduce DS. But it will only be like -5 DS.


Would anyone else like to take a guess?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 208
Author: THROGG
Date: on 08/29/2015 04:21 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


>>Does anyone actually use 510/514? I mean like, on a regular basis, and not just when they're bored?<<

I have to admit that I have done so on occasion. I would often use 510 on war griffins in OTF before they did their dive thing and came into weapon range. Clearly situational, and only because flying critters are out of range of my weapon.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 209
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 08/29/2015 04:34 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


>> Does anyone actually use 510/514? I mean like, on a regular basis, and not just when they're bored?

I sometimes use 510 as a higher end bolt on something I want to kill faster. It's safer in the temple vs. using lightning bolt depending on which room you are in.

514 is just too clunky to use in combat without any great results. If the grasp prevented them from swinging/casting vs. just rooting them I'd probably play around with it a little more as a substitute/replacement for the lost disable ability from immolate.

-- Robert

"All wizards are beginners; some of us have just been beginning longer!"

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 210
Author: DEANSMITH
Date: on 08/29/2015 04:35 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


The following update has been made to Stone Skin (520). Training in Elemental Lore, Earth provides a % chance, using a seed 9 summation, for a reactive vibration flares to occur when struck with an AS/DS attack.

Cyraex,

While not completely clear in your original announcement, I am assuming that this is based on Skill Ranks and not Bonus.

I am a little worried with the high seed on this benefit, so I have two suggestions:

1) Change the summation from a Seed 9 to a Seed 3. This would raise the maximum flare chance by 4% 2) Use Bonus and NOT Ranks. This would also raise the maximum flare chance by 4%

I know that this would have Wizards able to cap out at 17% reactive flares, which may be higher than you would like, BUT the benefits would start to accrue MUCH faster this way.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 211
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 08/29/2015 04:42 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


>> The following update has been made to Stone Skin (520). Training in Elemental Lore, Earth provides a % chance, using a seed 9 summation, for a reactive vibration flares to occur when struck with an AS/DS attack.

How about eliminating the reactive vibration flares and replacing it with a stun reduction for the same lore training and effect (either reduced time stunned or chance to avoid being stunned or both)?

-- Robert

"All wizards are beginners; some of us have just been beginning longer!"

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 213
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 08/29/2015 04:47 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


17% would be high if you were negating the attack, but the attack still goes through. Why not drop all damage from the retaliatory strike and instead turn the reactive flare into a purely disabling effect? That would be worthwhile.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 214
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 08/29/2015 04:48 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


>> 17% would be high if you were negating the attack, but the attack still goes through. Why not drop all damage entirely and turn the reactive flare into a purely disabling effect? That would be worthwhile.

I like this as an alternative suggestion as well. I really see Stone Skin as a defensive spell so the reactive flare seems out of place conceptually (for me) as well as just not being a very exciting effect in general.

-- Robert

"All wizards are beginners; some of us have just been beginning longer!"

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 215
Author: TGO01
Date: on 08/29/2015 04:49 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


>How about eliminating the reactive vibration flares and replacing it with a stun reduction for the same lore training and effect (either reduced time stunned or chance to avoid being stunned or both)?

Now that would be awesome. A 17% to avoid being stunned by the attack would be useful.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 216
Author: BLACKKOBOLD
Date: on 08/29/2015 07:56 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


You know, I really don't mean to sound ungrateful but so much of this work is going toward extremely costly benefits that aren't much of a benefit. We've provided a ton of ideas for fixing this waste of a spell slot. How did you manage to arrive at an addition that is even less relevant than the base spell? The % chance is laughable. The effect is lackluster. The cost is extreme. I wish this weren't part of a trend, but I keep saying it: massive class-redefining nerfs paired with irrelevant lore tie-ins is not good enough.

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 217
Author: BLACKKOBOLD
Date: on 08/29/2015 08:10 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


Spot on!

Estild, nice dodge.

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 219
Author: RROY
Date: on 08/29/2015 09:29 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


Go Estild! I'm glad you got mad enough to put that out there. Bravo! A lot of people been nitpicking every release as if that's the only reason to train the lore.....

Thats 16 reasons and COMBINED makes it worth it. I truly wish they would ban folks including me from the boards for awhile if that's what it takes...

All the grunting, groaning, insults, and lack of faith? Is the goal to drive all these great player/GMs away from ever developing again. Some people are acting like babies. Write your posts and re-read it 5 times before posting. Try and read it from differing points of view,people's differences don't always mean ones right the other wrong.

Just an elf about town...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 220
Author: DRUMPEL
Date: on 08/29/2015 09:45 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


>>Does anyone actually use 510/514? I mean like, on a regular basis, and not just when they're bored? >>-TGO01

I enjoy 510 - it hits like a ton of bricks for my wizard. Here's the adjusted DF chart for my wizard and the use of his 510.

AG Cloth Leather Scale Chain Plate
AsG 1 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
DF .791 .601 .541 .516 .521
AvD 40 40 39 38 37 40 38 36 34 40 36 32 28 40 34 28 22

It rivals the DF of any weapon out there. Plus, my runestaff holds 40 charges of 510 (recharges 10 per day) so I can toss them with it if I'm low on mana. Generally any successful hit with a boulder stuns, knocks prone or outright crits the target.

As for 514 - not very often. I've got 124 ranks in Earth Lore at 79th level (just over 1.5x in Earth Lore) and 63 MjE ranks. I can generally slap the crap out of something pretty effectively if I land the hand - though it costs too much mana to be a useful hunting spell. Pounding critters is fun though - as long as I've got a few levels over them I don't have an issue getting pound to work.

-Drumpel

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 221
Author: ARIETTA
Date: on 08/29/2015 09:50 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


>>Does anyone actually use 510/514? I mean like, on a regular basis, and not just when they're bored?>>>

Yes, all the time. Hurl Boulder (510) is my go-to bolt. I feel it crits better than Major Shock. The idea of "Cone of Elements" very much appeals to me for this reason, even with a reduction in the number of targets. I also currently have 25 ranks of earth lore, which seems to give it a slight boost. I will add, that in the bowels, Hurl Boulder is really THE bolt spell of preference, for obvious reasons. It is very effective there.

As for Stone Fist (514)...I do use it on occasion. It is extremely situational, and in all honesty, not very effective. I do seem to recall this spell was up for some enhancement, however? So we'll see. Maybe it will be more useful after all is said and done.

~ GtG

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 222
Author: SPYRIDONM1
Date: on 08/29/2015 10:51 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


>I think the wording on the wikki is misleading. Both total absorbtion and the shatter point are influenced by EL:E. -- Robert

Total absorption IS the shatter point. The wording on the wiki is not misleading. It's the hardness messaging that's misleading and it is also completely irrevalent since we have a very simple formula for calculating the shatter point's exact value.

Shatter Point (aka total absorption) formula: MjE ranks + trunc(EL:E ranks/2).

Also, the formula for the shatter point messaging with its large variable tells us nothing of the exact value other than it falls within a large range. You can cast the spell and get a reading of Thick, Hard or Very Hard with the same shatter point. How is that of any benefit especially since we know the formula?

My advice is to completely ignore the messaging and the messaging formula and instead just calculate your own shatter point using the formula above.

>Since the shatter point [MjE ranks + trunc(Earth lore ranks/2)] is unaffected by the hardness messaging (it's the other way around) can you tell us if there is any mechanical significance to these descriptors? Ie., does hardness affect either minimum/maximum absorption per attack or is it just 'flavor' messaging? Thanks! - ME
Minimum and maximum absorption per attack aren't related to the hardness that gets messaged. The messaging is just an indicator of how high the shatter point is set when the spell is cast. - GM Konacon

A simple improvement for the spell would be to increase the minimum and maximum damage absorped per attack.


Mark

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 223
Author: BLACKKOBOLD
Date: on 08/29/2015 11:04 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


I wish I could find something positive to say, RROY. This 520 change smacks of yet another poorly thought-out excuse to justify underutilized lore skills. They keep talking about how this is all going to come together. As of yet, I'm just not seeing it. This spell was and still is terrible. The sum of earth lore training releases with the exception of 909, all irrelevant. This still feels like we're taking away far too much in exchange for a whole lot of nothing. Meanwhile the devs continue trying to convince us of how wonderful these changes are by insisting that while one change might be underwhelming, if we pile enough of these pointless additions up somebody somewhere will want to train in lores. In truth, all anyone is training lores for at the moment is to get back some of what was taken away. Not good enough.

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 224
Author: DRAFIX
Date: on 08/29/2015 11:27 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


Oh... snap...

I agree Tavs... basically tl;dr but from what I've seen... I'm so beyond underwhelmed ... I just can't...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 225
Author: OM1E5GA
Date: on 08/30/2015 01:19 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


As someone that's not emotionally invested in the profession, I can see why wizards are underwhelmed by the ELR so far. Especially after some of the awesome changes made to the Sorcerer circle during HSN.

I think there are several reasons for this:

-Since it's a Lore review rather then a spell circle review the changes aren't going to be as dramatic as the ones made to the Sorcerer circle, but many players seem to be expecting similar changes -With many of the lore additions (esp in the MnE circle), it's really unclear WHO the lore additions are supposed to be aimed at given the lore that was used to gain the bonus... making it feel like some lore additions were after-thoughts -Most, if not all, players are in the dark as to what the goals of the review were beyond wanting to give reasons to train in the lores few train in. What is the over-all theme?

That said, it would be nice if more players paid attention to the tone of their posts. I know I certainly wouldn't take seriously the points made in the posts where the author comes across as whiny or holier-then-thou if I were a GM.


Starchitin

A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 226
Author: THROGG
Date: on 08/30/2015 01:28 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


>> making it feel like some lore additions were after-thoughts<<

If the ELR was intended to distract us from the fact that our three main combat spells are being greatly weakened, it's not working.

As I mentioned in the other folder, even considering the ELR as a totally separate entity from the spell changes, the results are very unimpressive. Seed tables too high, lore requirements too steep, benefits minimal. We are not amused.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 227
Author: ZENDADA
Date: on 08/30/2015 01:34 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


Starchitin

I was thinking the same thing. You put it into more concise words than I could have.

ELR affects most all classes. With the Sorcerer spell circle getting some revamps first, then the announcement that the Wizard spell circle were getting some downgrades, ELR has kind of fallen between that crack. We aren't even done with it yet.

I think we'll find at the end, when we sum up what all the different lores do, there will be distinct benefits for each.

I understand the concern of some wizards. The outright panic is a bit hasty. <-- oh yeah. I'm about letting the changes come, work with them, and give feedback afterwards. Seriously... we are gamers. We figure stuff out. I bet you could do away with haste entirely and one of us gamers would figure out how to get around it.

Chad, player of a few

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 228
Author: RROY
Date: on 08/30/2015 04:09 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


Chad great GREAT post! You aren't the only one feels that way, and yet, you made a short and to the point posting describing how many feel. Bravo! I want to come to these folders and read the exciting new release of the day for the ELR, and not the huge barrage of negative stuff from the 8 or so people who just can't keep from going on and on.

In the end if a few leave in a huff then that's what happens. These text based games don't have the hardware overhead to need every person to stay. $3000 to $12,000 per month is the price range I'm getting googling T-3 Line costs (I know back in the day Simu touted that was their connection), office space for the staff and hardware for the existing product line can be reduced. At least the top three of the IFE games are financially healthy even if the company that owns them isn't.

They got the lowest in-game content developement of any MMO I know of thats a commercial endeavor. HEY NOW!

Just an elf about town...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 229
Author: THROGG
Date: on 08/30/2015 04:46 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


I have a concrete suggestion. Instead of having something like earth lore having many effects spread out diffusely, how about letting us choose which effect we wish it to have, and make that effect stronger. So, I might wish to apply my earth lore to its effect on stoneskin, and forfeit any effects on haste and other spells. In return, I would get a truly strong and useful stoneskin, with extra damage protection and a chance to remove a stun. Or I could choose to let my stoneskin remain unaffected, but let, say, 50 ranks of earth lore totally negate the cooldown effect on haste. Those who are happy with the lore changes as they are would just stand pat.

This would of course require a modification to the already written coding of these spells, but it might be worth it to cool down some of the criticism.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 230
Author: AUDIOSERF
Date: on 08/30/2015 04:52 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


Stone Skin is a 20th level Major circle spell, which is in every possible way worse than the 16th level Sorceror spell. 716 doesn't even require you to take a hit to activate, and has gnarly results when it does. If a mage takes a hit in robes/leathers, they're probably stunned or dead. A small chance of a small reactive flare for a ton of EL:E training? Not that useful!

There were so many good ideas posted for 520 which would have been fun, useful, and appropriate for the level of the spell. Make it castable at body parts - Stone Hands to defend Disarm, Stone Legs to help avoid knockdowns. Make it add crit padding at a high EL:E seed. Make it castable at armor to boost ASG. But piddly flares? Yeah, it makes sense to view this as the definition of underwhelming.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 231
Author: GOLDENOAK2
Date: on 08/30/2015 04:53 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


I have a concrete suggestion. Instead of having something like earth lore having many effects spread out diffusely, how about letting us choose which effect we wish it to have, and make that effect stronger. So, I might wish to apply my earth lore to its effect on stoneskin, and forfeit any effects on haste and other spells. In return, I would get a truly strong and useful stoneskin, with extra damage protection and a chance to remove a stun. Or I could choose to let my stoneskin remain unaffected, but let, say, 50 ranks of earth lore totally negate the cooldown effect on haste. Those who are happy with the lore changes as they are would just stand pat.
This would of course require a modification to the already written coding of these spells, but it might be worth it to cool down some of the criticism.

it sounds like basically you are suggesting a lore training scheme similar to Armor, Shield or CMANS. That's actually not a bad idea...though I shudder to think of the development time it would take. Of course with the framework already in place for those other skills, it might not actually be that difficult to code.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 232
Author: THROGG
Date: on 08/30/2015 05:14 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


>>it sounds like basically you are suggesting a lore training scheme similar to Armor, Shield or CMANS<<

That's a close analogy. One of the problems I have with the current ELR is the diffuse and non-specific nature of the effects. Too many lores needed for too little benefit.

If I train in Cman, (and this is true for any profession), I can choose to specialize in one skill that I think would be the most useful and get 5 ranks, spread them out a bit and get 2-3 ranks of 3 skills, or put everything into a general defensive skill, namely cunning defense. This would do the same for lores.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 233
Author: GOLDENOAK2
Date: on 08/30/2015 06:26 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


Throgg, I hope you don't mind if I run with your idea for a second. Thinking about how something like that would work I came up with some theoretical examples.

Basically, instead of all the seed 3 % ranks/bonus stuff, which quite frankly is such a pain to figure out. I hate having to go to a reference chart to see how my spell works today...then try to discern if its based on ranks or bonus...and if the bonus from the seed chart is a %bonus, etc. Its Way too complicated when I just want to know...my spell costs 5 mana and gives me 20 DS.

Instead have an elemental lore list like those other skills...and let all elemental (for instance though this could work for any lore) lores count as general lore points. Then to focus on the specific skills you tie the abilities to prerequisite amounts of whatever lore. So you could have general lore skills that training in any path could learn...then specific skills that require a specific number of Earth, water, air, fire...etc lore.

So take haste spell. you could do something like this. Take the current proposal of cooldown with multiplying mana costs. The following example would cost the user 35 general lore to master, and require 60 air lore for mastery. So you require a decent devotion to air lore to get the effects, but have a bit that you could spend to another lore ability.

Time Mastery Skill (Tmastery)
Requirements: 20 ranks in Air Lore per rank
Time Mastery allows caster to prepare themselves to endure the rigors of manipulating temporal fields. When actively using ability they can completely ignore the strain caused by shifting temporal fields on their bodies. Even when inactive, they can significantly reduce the strain.
Each rank allows the caster 1 activation per day of ability. Each activation grants 10 minutes of unrestricted haste usage for base cost.
Rank 1 - 5 elemental lore points: Passive Ability - Maximum Mana: 42 mana per cast
Rank 2 - 10 elemental lore points: Passive Ability - Maximum Mana: 34 mana per cast
Rank 3 - 20 elemental lore points: Passive Ability - Maximum Mana: 26 mana per cast

Another ability

Bolt Mastery (Bmastery)
Bolt mastery is a general lore skill that improves the casters ability to use elemental bolt spells effectively. By focusing on a general area when casting, bolts are more likely to hit that area than other parts of the body.
Center Mass gives an increased chance to hit chest, abdomen and back
Limbs gives an increased chance to hit legs and arms
Upper Body gives an increased chance to hit head or neck
Usage Bmastery Aim (center mass, limbs, upper body)
Rank 1 - 5 elemental lore points: Bolt AS is improved by 5 points and allows focus on limbs of target.
Rank 2 - 10 elemental lore points: Bolt AS is improved by 10 points and allows focus on center mass.
Rank 3 - 15 elemental lore points: Bolt AS is improved by 15 points and allows focus on upper body shots.

Anyways, that's a general idea on how it could work. Basically you could have a number of general skills that are learned from the pool of lore points...then specific skills that require devotion on a specific track. You could have skills like mana efficiency, spell durability (resist dispels), resonance (increase spells of specific element potency), etc.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 234
Author: BLACKKOBOLD
Date: on 08/30/2015 07:12 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


Here's the problem, Starchitin. That first point is not being applied evenly. If all they had done was give us lore additions, then many players would probably still be somewhat disappointed (because these lore additions so far feel totally irrelevant), but they probably wouldn't feel cheated. But that's not what they did. They started out with huge, class-redefining nerfs. I understand why, but to say that the changes aren't going to be as dramatic as the sorcerer review because this is a lore review? I don't understand it. If you're going to do the nerf thing, then do the rebalancing as part of the same review. We've been through this since long before any lore review was ever announced. Don't do to us what you did to sorcerers in the 90s. How did they manage to get this so wrong?

Given that they did decide to make huge changes to 3 of our most important spells, I wonder why they didn't see fit to make any changes to the other spells? The comments are pretty consistent here. What do we like about the ELR? Tremors. Why do we like it? Certainly not for the lore tie-in, but the fact that it gained a unique and useful benefit that applies to all wizards regardless of lore training. The TAP/STOMP addition greatly increases the utility of what was an underwhelming spell.

Now look at stoneskin. A practically useless spell. They added an irrelevant lore tie-in but did not see fit to add anything useful to the base function. Had they done to 520 what they did to 909, I doubt anyone would be complaining about it.

It seems to me there's a smart way of handling this lore review and a not-so-smart way.

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 235
Author: GS4-CYRAEX
Date: on 08/30/2015 10:21 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


DEANSMITH:
Cyraex,
While not completely clear in your original announcement, I am assuming that this is based on Skill Ranks and not Bonus.
I am a little worried with the high seed on this benefit, so I have two suggestions:
1) Change the summation from a Seed 9 to a Seed 3. This would raise the maximum flare chance by 4%
2) Use Bonus and NOT Ranks. This would also raise the maximum flare chance by 4%
I know that this would have Wizards able to cap out at 17% reactive flares, which may be higher than you would like, BUT the benefits would start to accrue MUCH faster this way.

Yes, your assumption is correct, the calculation is based on ranks.

I want to also take this opportunity to remind everyone that all of the updates that have been done as part of the ELR review were designed and agreed upon by all of the GM's on the development team, I am just the implementer of that design.

We always appreciate your great ideas and feedback, please keep posting them. I am pretty sure that there will be a feedback thread created by GM Estild once we are done releasing all of the updates. At that time we will likely review your feedback and potentially make changes if we feel its the appropriate action.

GameMaster Cyraex

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 236
Author: TGO01
Date: on 08/30/2015 10:30 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


>I want to come to these folders and read the exciting new release of the day for the ELR, and not the huge barrage of negative stuff from the 8 or so people who just can't keep from going on and on.

I come to these forums to read discussions between players and GMs, not to read all of the complaining about other people complaining from the same 8 or so people who just keep going on and on.

If all you want to do is read about the exciting new release of the day then you can just read the announcement.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 237
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 08/30/2015 11:47 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


Heheh. I don't know why, but this struck me as funny. I, for one, don't bear any grudges against any particular GMs. Though at a glance it would seem Ixix got the short end of the announcement stick :D

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 238
Author: GS4-CYRAEX
Date: on 08/30/2015 12:15 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


KEITHOBAD:
Heheh. I don't know why, but this struck me as funny. I, for one, don't bear any grudges against any particular GMs. Though at a glance it would seem Ixix got the short end of the announcement stick :D

My point, was to simply say that this was a team effort, and that any additional modifications would also need to be decided upon as a team. That's why its important that everyone continue to offer their feedback and ideas in a constructive manner.

GameMaster Cyraex

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 239
Author: THROGG
Date: on 08/30/2015 12:58 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


Have any of these announced changes gone into effect yet? I was having a friend help me check out my DS, when this occurred. I have never seen this happen before.

>>>Kayliegh swings a closed fist at you! A heavy barrier of stone momentarily forms around you and blocks the attack!<<

The reason I ask is that the changes announced to stone skin only mention reactive flares, not outright blocking of an attack. However, I have never seen this happen in the past. It might be an already coded function of the spell that is so rare that I have never seen it before. (My DS is decent enough that I rarely get hit physically by weapons, so I may just have missed it all these years). Just curious. If it's a new change that wasn't announced, it looks pretty good. If it's an old property of the spell, then I have to ask just how rare is it?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 240
Author: ERYKK2
Date: on 08/30/2015 01:07 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


>>>Kayliegh swings a closed fist at you!
A heavy barrier of stone momentarily forms around you and blocks the attack!<<

That's probably the 401/406/414 benefit.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 241
Author: TANDL
Date: on 08/30/2015 02:12 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


Everything that has been posted in the official announcement folder should be active.

The stacked 400 guards benefit Prismaric guard's DS increase Ice patch doing damage on targetted application Stone skin's vibe flares The whole water lore lockpicking/magic box opening set The artifical node boost Presence's ability to point people out Sleep's 2 second DS pushdown Elemental strike's multi-target chance

And whatever else I am missing.

Tal.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 242
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 08/30/2015 02:58 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


Or coming from the other direction, the things described but NOT implemented are: -haste nerf -rapid fire nerf -immolation nerf -Tremors buff -Timestop creation. -502 transformation into a CS spell.

It was also let slip that someday, eventually, 925 might be looked at to be made in some way useful for actual hunting instead of griefing.

Basically anything listed in your in-game NEWS list is implemented.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 243
Author: MDEVEAU
Date: on 08/30/2015 03:03 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


I think you meant 525. Although 925 needs to be addressed as well. 735 is considerably more modern mechanistically speaking as compared to the current and even suggested revision of 925 especially in light of how readily merchant available 5-6X equipment and that end tier content is driven typically by TD and maneuver avoidance.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 244
Author: DRUMPEL
Date: on 08/30/2015 06:40 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


You know, I'd much rather see Stone Skin give a chance to deflect the AS attack entirely. Put on a 10 seed summation. 186 ranks for a 12% chance that your stone skin deflected the attack entirely - the deflection though, would result in the skin shattering immediately.

Maybe for a maneuver done that causes harm, you could see a reactive flare from the 10 seed summation as well. The stone skin cover your entire body - so any maneuver that strikes your body (like trip or tackle for examples), you get a slight chance to a reactive flare if you take damage.

-Drumpel

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 245
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 08/31/2015 12:02 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


Hahah, one of the many, MANY ideas that us wizards have come up with on how to make something useful out of a terrible implementation of a good idea, Stone for Skin! For the record, I don't blame current GMs for the original spell, but you could....fix it.... PLEASE!


I did! The fact that I've only cast it once makes it hard to remember, heh.


God yes. This spell is a painful dinosaur. The proposed changes don't go nearly far enough. A) we're still spending months with nice items rotting in our lockers because... tempering is a thing? For magic runes? Seriously? We're not curing hides here people.


<735 is considerably more modern mechanistically speaking as compared to the current and even suggested revision of 925 especially in light of how readily merchant available 5-6X equipment and that end tier content is driven typically by TD and maneuver avoidance.

I'm so glad you brought that up. This recent duskruin even had 5x in excess, and even 6x, but I didn't see a single ensorcelled item available off-the-shelf.

I see ensorcels being sold many times per day but I never see enchant projects asked for or offered. No one wants to bother with the heavy burden of having to track people after months of enchanting! It's ridiculous! Make it cast and done, just like ensorcelling. A sorcerer has something useful to provide on a weekly basis, it takes over a month to get a basic 5x enchant done which is worth 2 days of hunting silver. It's totally bogus.

Enchanting flaring weapons is a waste of resources. Passion projects are the only things worth enchanting and they lean heavily towards weighting in cases other than runestaffs. Even for staffs it makes more sense to get it fully upgraded and then get a fancy uncommon flare at the end rather than try to do multiple extremely difficult (100 lore minimum req!) enchants on a basic flaring weapon.

Let me add flares to someone's top-tier weapon without taking possession of it for weeks/months, then we'll have trade worth engaging in. Or just unlock 7x-10x enchants. And/or skew enchanting heavily towards people who actually play their wizards. We are currently the most pocketed profession because all the value is in 'having' a wizard, not playing it. Make enchanting more like Ensorcelling. I'm hunting anyway! Let me get some benefit from that over the people who log in once a week to update their enchants. And NOT just if I put a million TPs into water lore.

Apologies, I realize I went on a bit of a 925 rant there but there are obviously quite a few things about the current enchanting situation that annoy me.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 246
Author: THROGG
Date: on 08/31/2015 04:14 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


This is the sort of thing I'd like to see stoneskin alleviate, or at least have a chance to do so.

>>A Taladorian knight swings a claidhmore at you! AS: +500 vs DS: +517 with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +97 = +112 A layer of shifting stone absorbs 8 points of damage! ... and hits for 13 points of damage! Slash along your lower back. You are stunned for 2 rounds!<<

A miniscule end roll margin, with relatively minor damage, but I got stunned because ... well, it's a claidh. Needless to say, the stun dropped my DS and the next hit knocked me to the ground, and ... well it wasn't pretty. This was before the ELR, of course, but even if it weren't, a minor reactive flare on a critter with 500 or so HP would have done absolutely nothing to save my bacon. Had my earth lore give me a decent chance to avoid or break the stun, it might have made all the difference.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 247
Author: THROGG
Date: on 08/31/2015 04:28 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


Hah! Amusingly enough, I just realized that I had been deriding the extra DS I am getting from earth lore, and this is one of the rare cases where the extra +8 DS might actually have made a difference. It's pretty uncommon; a DS of 517 is fairly decent, and that was without wizard shield up. Still, this is an illustration that such instances do in fact occur. Lolz.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 248
Author: MDEVEAU
Date: on 08/31/2015 05:29 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


But as you pointed out, a 20th level defensive spell which offered you little to no protection in its current form as compared to the 19th level spell which would have completely obviated the need to have the 20th level spell in the first place. 520 needs to be revised to be relevant.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 249
Author: GOLDENOAK2
Date: on 08/31/2015 05:54 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


But as you pointed out, a 20th level defensive spell which offered you little to no protection in its current form as compared to the 19th level spell which would have completely obviated the need to have the 20th level spell in the first place. 520 needs to be revised to be relevant. >>

To really make it stand out, compare it to iron skin spell of minor mental (one of the best defensive spells around if you have enough lore)...that is a 2nd level spell that with enough enhancives could potentially have your robes equivalent to plate by the cap.

sigh...now I am probably in trouble with the monk police, and we will have people screaming to nerf monks...ah well. Its true though...if I had a choice between 520 (major elemental, 20th level) and 1202 (minor mental, 2nd level) I would choose 1202 every time.

Now if you changed it so that it would remove the damage BEFORE crit resolution that would be a whole different ball game. And if you made it shatter that claidhmore (potentially) so the next hit was from a fist, that would be even nicer. Basically make it so the weapon is more likely to shatter the harder you are hit...IE the higher the end roll the more likely the weapon breaks on your armor.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 251
Author: THROGG
Date: on 08/31/2015 08:23 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


Or compare it to 319, where the hit just ... goes away.

Not my intention to create cleric envy here, but 319 is the real best defensive spell around. Better than cloak of shadows, ironskin, temporal reversion ... all of which, btw, make stone skin look laughable by comparison.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 252
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 08/31/2015 06:48 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


So since it's gloried release, has 520 vibe flares proc'd yet in game?

Has Elanthia trembled in fear at the new onslaught of stone-clad wizards, afraid to touch them for fear of instant vibrational retribution?


In all seriousness I would be curious about usage stats on this (not that I expect to). The % is so low that I wonder if it's even happened in the wild yet.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 253
Author: MDEVEAU
Date: on 08/31/2015 07:01 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


Similar to Iron Skin, 520 being changed to function like AG 5 armor group (after all, it is supposedly a barrier of stone surrounding you) relative to critical hits would be worthy of a 20th level defensive-based spell.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 254
Author: ZENDADA
Date: on 08/31/2015 07:09 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


When you consider some of the lower armor spell hindrances it should be flaring at least every once in a while. My mage wears double leather so even at 4% I see failures due to hindrance what I would call every once in a while.

Chad, player of a few

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 255
Author: ZENDADA
Date: on 08/31/2015 08:45 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


To criticize 520, which I don't hate and like the lore improvements to, it does seem a bit weak when this happens...

A mob charges at you! 

 AS: +258 vs DS: +209 with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +77 = +155
  A layer of shifting stone absorbs 2 points of damage!
  ... and hits for 1 point of damage!
  Whiplash!

The result is...

You have minor bruises on your neck.

My char is wearing DCP double leather.

Chad, player of a few

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 256
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/01/2015 01:16 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


I'm kinda surprised it didn't break your neck with that endroll on non-CP leather.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 258
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/01/2015 01:19 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


Yeah but I cast a long more spells than I do get hit by monsters. If it had that % chance to add a vibe flare to my attack I'd be ecstatic with the change.

Hey, now there's an idea, have it apply to melee attacks made by the mage. Cool buff for warmages!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 259
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/01/2015 09:51 AM PDT
Subject: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


Hi everybody! (Scroll down to == MECHANICS == if you don't care about my ramblings.)

I'm not sure I'm feeling 100% up to shenanigans today, but I'm gonna do what I can to power through and give you an update you can all be proud of. Today we're gonna be talking quality of life. "KONACON YOU GOT US NEW CARS?!" Come on now, we're talking about the spell Slow here. It says it right in the title! Pay attention. So here's the thing with Slow: It takes 3 seconds to cast, but the target you're casting at doesn't have to pay that three seconds. You take all that time, slow them down, and while you're still sitting in the cast RT of the spell, it hits you in the face! Then when you wake up you're thinking, "I thought it was slow!" Well, let's take care of that! Oh, and we'll add some air lore in, because this is the ELR. Also because I wanted to... And puppies.

MECHANICS

- When a target is successfully hit with the spell Slow (and is not already affected by the spell), it will now be instantly given 3 seconds of roundtime. - A group-friendly open cast version of this spell has been added. The number of targets affected is (1 + (Elemental Lore, Air Ranks / 20)). This also applies the 3 seconds of roundtime mentioned above. - Note: The 3s roundtime benefit has also been applied to Pious Trial (1602).

Questions? Comments? Love? Hate? Send them on up in here!

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 260
Author: LORDDARK
Date: on 09/01/2015 09:58 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


Maybe I missed something, but doesn't this mean that they really only get the 3 seconds and we're STILL in cast roundtime. Not sure what, if any other, effects this has on the target, but it still seems pretty pointless to use. Not trying to give you a hard time, just trying to figure out the benefit of using this spell, say, on my wizard to keep something from casting at me.

-Dark

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 261
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 09/01/2015 10:07 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


They get the RT adder right now (this is new), assuming they fail the CS/TD check of course.

Then, on all of their subsequent actions, they--again, assuming they failed the CS/TD check in the first place--are under the effects of the spell, so their RT is jacked up.

What the change/addition does is give you the safe window while you're still in castRT, where--prior to the addition--the creature was perfectly willing & able to CMan your vulnerable little butt.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 262
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/01/2015 10:09 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


LORDDARK
Maybe I missed something, but doesn't this mean that they really only get the 3 seconds and we're STILL in cast roundtime. Not sure what, if any other, effects this has on the target, but it still seems pretty pointless to use. Not trying to give you a hard time, just trying to figure out the benefit of using this spell, say, on my wizard to keep something from casting at me.

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say here. When you cast slow, you get 3 seconds of cast roundtime (Unless Rapid Fire). When you get those 3 seconds of cast roundtime, your target gets 3 seconds of roundtime. By my napkin math, that means that you should both be coming out of your respective RTs at the same time... Although yours is cast RT, and the target's is hard RT, and I'm pretty sure that cast RT is much more preferable. On top of that, further actions that the target takes will incur additional RT because that's what the spell Slow does.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 264
Author: HJELTE
Date: on 09/01/2015 10:12 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


While I like the change... I really don't think the disabling has been enhanced enough that it is advantageous to cast compared to something that deals direct damage like 904. I haven't really ever considered a situation where I would utilize 504 during a hunt, and I don't think that these mechanical improvements will change that.

I take a look at something like 703, that spell is leaps and bounds incredibly more powerful than this, has a lower mana cost, has better multi-hit based on SMC/EMC compared to a lore, and reduces target's defenses.

If Slow came with an EBP penalty, I could see that leveling the playing field a little bit.

~Whirlin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 265
Author: LORDDARK
Date: on 09/01/2015 10:19 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


Sorry, Konacon, I guess I've never used Slow before, so I didn't realize that it added a second or two to their actions. I'm assuming that the RT is added after they take an action and not before, but I suppose I should read the spell description before commenting. I was trying to understand what the benefit of both coming out of the RT at the same time was and if it really was an improvement. Still seems like they can do an action when you both are free from RT and potentially destroy you with a maneuver, even if it only costs them a few more seconds of RT to do so.

-Dark

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 266
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/01/2015 10:23 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


No need to be sorry, Dark. I just wanted to make sure I understood what you were asking. The purpose of the RT addition was to make sure the caster didn't feel like they were losing time compared to their target by bothering to cast this spell.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 267
Author: HJELTE
Date: on 09/01/2015 10:25 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


I also just noticed...

Is 504 just a worse form of 1602? Sure, 1602 relies on two different lores, but MUCH lower requirements on those lores, 100/200 skill bonus versus 10/25 ranks, and additional hits at ranks/10 rather than ranks/20.

~Whirlin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 268
Author: WINTERMYST
Date: on 09/01/2015 10:25 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


Slow is one of those spells that is actually pretty useless, not sure I know any wizard that actually uses it other then to slow players while just goofing around or rpeeeeeing kind of another one of those spells that is for all practical purposes is useless

You also see the Shilarra disk etched with the image of a Vathor

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 269
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/01/2015 10:27 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


I don't want to jump all over Konacon since it sounds like we're wearing him down, but I agree with Whirlin (as per usual).

While the +3 RT is a positive change, the effect is still one that I really can't find a use for. If I can ward it, sleep is better. If I can't, ewave is MUCH better.

As as for the lore part, I appreciate you didn't go with some lame seed value! ....but more of a bad thing doesn't make it a good thing. And 504 is inherently a bad thing.

E/P/B or DS reduction might help but realistically I doubt it would ever be equivalent to being made prone (-50DS) so not really sure that would do it.

I really think the warding should be completely removed from this spell. It's just not worth casting if there's ANY risk of failure. Even if it was FREE WITH NO WARDING I'm not sure I'd cast it, because it still slows me down 3 sec (and burns 4 mana) that I could be doing damage with instead. But I would at least occasionally think about it.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 270
Author: ZENDADA
Date: on 09/01/2015 10:32 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


Nice addition to an already well established list of air lore benefits!

Chad, player of a few

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 271
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/01/2015 10:42 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


> I don't want to jump all over Konacon since it sounds like we're wearing him down, but I agree with Whirlin (as per usual).

Nope. Nobody here is wearing me down. Feel free to say whatever you want to. I can take it.

> I really think the warding should be completely removed from this spell. It's just not worth casting if there's ANY risk of failure. Even if it was FREE WITH NO WARDING I'm not sure I'd cast it, because it still slows me down 3 sec (and burns 4 mana) that I could be doing damage with instead. But I would at least occasionally think about it.

My guess is that this just isn't a spell you're ever likely going to be interested in, given this statement. Not every spell is for everyone.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 272
Author: DEANSMITH
Date: on 09/01/2015 10:54 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


Thanks for the update!

I do have a couple of suggestions:

1) Give the initial RT the standard benefit that the other Haste/Slow effects have. +1 RT at 100 skill, +2 at 200 skill, and +3 at 300 skill. 2) I really do like the previous suggestions of adding E/B/P or DS penalties for the duration of the spell as well.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 273
Author: BLACKKOBOLD
Date: on 09/01/2015 11:06 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


I'm going to have to disagree with those who are saying this is a useless upgrade. I don't think there are any enemies that slow doesn't work against (aside from magic immune targets, of course). In a swarm you don't lose much by casting it, and the additional RT is significant - especially with air lore. The mana cost is also negligible. It's not going to replace ewave, but I can see plenty of situations where this would be a useful spell.

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 274
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/01/2015 11:20 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


>It's not going to replace ewave, but I can see plenty of situations where this would be a useful spell.

Such as?

You know what would be awesome? If a hasted character attacking a slowed critter had some additional benefits. Like, I don't know, maybe a slowed critter suffers -30 DS when attacked by someone with haste.

I think having synergies such as this would actually encourage people to use different spells more often instead of just giving the critter an instant 3 second roundtime. It's cool that both the critter and caster now suffer 3 seconds of roundtime but I still really don't see much use for this spell.

I don't know of anyone who ever uses this spell and I don't think the lack of a 3 second induced roundtime was the reason why.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 275
Author: MDEVEAU
Date: on 09/01/2015 11:35 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


One possible permutation for 520, and I apologize is this has been brought up before or if what I present has been published before:

How changing 520, Stone Skin to Elemental Armor or Elemental Skin and give each element its own flare which increases in effect based on some EL seed or other skill sets.

Air: Surrounds the caster within a shimmering barrier which provides increased maneuver avoidance, Earth: Encases the caster within a rigid but malleable integument which provides increased protection against criticals, Fire: Encases the caster within an amorphic and ractive conflagration of flame which reflexively lashes out against any attack against the caster, Water: Encases the caster within a hydrogelatenous integument or membrane which increases the recuperative abilities of the caster (spirit, mana, health, etc)

This would provided roleplaying flare, flexibility, and relevance for the various wizard archtypes.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 276
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/01/2015 11:36 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


I'm going to agree that this change is unlikely to swing me from not using to using the spell. It just doesn't seem like enough benefit, given how quick to resolution combat is in this game. If there were true "boss" creatures, where they have an expected lifetime of 1 minute while you whittle them down (and then get something like 250-500 XP for killing them) the spell makes sense. However, as is being mentioned elsewhere, quick killers usually kill in 1-2 hits, and even people complaining about how slow Bolting is still all agree that around 5-6 is this outside of amount of casts required.

Something just seems a little lackluster with Slow that doesn't encourage me. The Lore requirements for more slow also seem very high (especially as the ELR is showcasing that Lores are becoming more critical, is dumping ALL your potential lore into air for a 3 second slow effect really worthwhile?).

Don't really know what would need to happen to use the spell, but I'm still having a hard time throwing it into a rotation where rather than casting slow, I would instead cast a spell that hurts the enemy, to set up a second or third cast for a kill.


Maybe using it as some sort of self-buff where anything that swings at you gets hit with +1/+2/+3 second RT, with charges like pestilence? Slowing Field or something? Might not fly for the mana cost but something passive seems more useful to me.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 277
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/01/2015 11:38 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


>Maybe using it as some sort of self-buff where anything that swings at you gets hit with +1/+2/+3 second RT, with charges like pestilence? Slowing Field or something? Might not fly for the mana cost but something passive seems more useful to me.

That would actually be awesome.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 279
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 09/01/2015 11:39 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


>As as for the lore part, I appreciate you didn't go with some lame seed value! ....but more of a bad thing doesn't make it a good thing. And 504 is inherently a bad thing.

umm, I'd much rather take a seed value instead of ranks/20. Ranks/20 is way harsh, Tai!

To compare to 703 (because that was the last open cast spell change), sorcerers get [EMC + SMC (divide lesser by 2)]/20. I don't think it would be wrong to make this also EMC instead of lore and divide by 10.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 280
Author: HJELTE
Date: on 09/01/2015 11:40 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


Nope. Nobody here is wearing me down. Feel free to say whatever you want to. I can take it.
My guess is that this just isn't a spell you're ever likely going to be interested in, given this statement. Not every spell is for everyone.

I disagree with this sentiment.

While I understand that the ELR is not a wizard-specific review, technically, all of the sorcerers changes under HSN were categorized as, "New spells" and "Lore adjustments" in the teasers. And when I take a look and compare, every single one of the sorcerer circle spells offers a scenarios that can make it a situationally advantageous spell. 705 is advantageous against non-corporeal and stunned creatures, 719 is stronger against casters, 711 destroys via it's hard RT component, and 703 offers lockdown for casters AND a warding defense reduction. I could go down the list, but EVERY single one of their spells is amazing, dynamic, and situational.

And then I look at Major Elemental. While I realize that it's not same as the profession-specific Wizard Circle, I've been incredibly underwhelmed by these changes. They haven't fundamentally changed the spells in such a way that would convert them to fluff to something that would truly become a situationally advantageous spell.

I REALLY like the ideas of lores expanding targets and increasing potency, but Wizards don't need to worry about AS/DS resolved attacks, so slowing down the frequency of attacks does little to benefit us. And having some sort of defense inhibitor (which would make sense with a target moving slower) would have really benefited this spell in a niche that doesn't currently exist, and made it more useful in situations where you may be against a hard critter with DS around your AS, but poor warding.

Or 501, having a cap on mana cost so it doesn't need to compete with other disablers like 410 at cap. If I need to knockdown a single target, I'd use 505 for less mana than 501, which would also stun it to keep it down longer.


I feel like the 'enhancements' introduced via this elemental lore review have been immaterial at best, and do not drive any sort of dynamic interaction with the player like the changes that we saw in the sorcerer circle, and really fail to take into account the way the class is played, and the concerns from the player base. Some of us have been waiting 15 years for the ELR to breathe new life into the class... and instead we're met with SEED 10 and told about 100 Lore Rank requirements before we can see any changes to the spells we know.

Maybe you guys are saving the best for last, but we haven't had that communicated to us, and we have no evidence of that. The loudest communication that came through was regarding a haste/rapid fire/Immolation nerf... The three main reasons wizards train in MjE to begin with, and the only thing that we had to look forward to post-cap.


I was expecting Wizards to turn into something as dynamic to play as Sorcerers, instead I'm finding myself jealous of Monk's UAC Mstrike.

~Whirlin

~Whirlin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 281
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/01/2015 11:43 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


Dunno why, but my last got me thinking of "Temporal Flares" or something like that, where you can cast it onto a weapon or armor and it either reduces your RT or Increases target RT when it happens.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 282
Author: HJELTE
Date: on 09/01/2015 11:51 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


I had said it in game, but not posted here yet.

The buffs to Stoneskin with the reactive vibe flares are about as important as releasing an announcement saying that you increased the duration of Spell Store. Using Seed 9 in conjunction with 1% outcome if laughable if it's thought to be an effective draw into earth lore over something like... Dodge training.

Even if the equation was using 10% per seed 9, I would still argue that 520 is a fairly worthless level 20 spell for the class that has it.


~Whirlin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 283
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/01/2015 11:54 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


>Even if the equation was using 10% per seed 9, I would still argue that 520 is a fairly worthless level 20 spell for the class that has it.

Well let's not exaggerate here. 10% per seed 9 would make one immune to all AS/DS attacks at 135 earth lore ranks.

Wait...yes...Whirlin is right...it would still suck...it would be a real shame if the lore were changed to 10% per seed 9...please don't do that, GMs.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 284
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/01/2015 11:57 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


>Maybe using it as some sort of self-buff where anything that swings at you gets hit with +1/+2/+3 second RT, with charges like pestilence? Slowing Field or something? Might not fly for the mana cost but something passive seems more useful to me.


Balekia on fire today! Two very cool ideas.


I mean other than for giggles, can you give me a situation where this spell excels? I tend to try and act strategically, so in that sense, spells that stink are not for me. (ie: 'not for everyone') I dunno, are there people out there using 914 and 512 and 514 on a regular basis? Because these are all in the same boat of Never the Best Spell to Cast. I mean people were a bit hard on the usefulness of 418 but I can at least conceive of a use-case for that, whereas I honestly can't for these spells. Not just trying to be snarky here.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 285
Author: HJELTE
Date: on 09/01/2015 12:00 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


10% Reactive Earth Flares. Per your calc, I guess that would be 100% chance at 135 Earth Lore Ranks.

Armor flares function AFTER AS/DS/Damage has been established, it wouldn't negate the AS/DS/Damage functions, just do a wonderful T1 earth prod after the stoneskin'ed person gets hit

~Whirlin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 286
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/01/2015 12:03 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


>can you give me a situation where this spell excels?

I honestly can't think of a single situation where I would use slow instead of call wind, ewave, tremors, or any damage spell. Heck I think I'd rather even use sleep or Elemental Blast (409) over slow.

I appreciate the GMs trying to take useless spells and making them actually useful, but I don't think just slapping a 3 second roundtime onto a spell like slow is going to accomplish that.

Spells like slow need a total redesign.

And yes, I understand it's far easier to make lore changes then to make spell changes but I can't help feel that if you are investing time in making lore changes for a spell then you probably aren't planning on redesigning said spell anytime soon.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 287
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/01/2015 12:06 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


>10% Reactive Earth Flares. Per your calc, I guess that would be 100% chance at 135 Earth Lore Ranks.

Oh wait, my bad. I was thinking of the shield effect from 401+406+414 making you immune to an attack.

I was like whoa, wait a minute, being immune to all attacks sounds pretty darn awesome to me.

You're right then. Even 10% per seed 1 would make the reactive lore benefit to Stone Skin pretty useless.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 289
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 09/01/2015 12:16 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


"While the +3 RT is a positive change, the effect is still one that I really can't find a use for. If I can ward it, sleep is better. If I can't, ewave is MUCH better." -- Keithobad

Remember that not everything is vulnerable to Sleep. Undead, automata, (used to be the case) golems and other 'created' creatures, for example.

Whereas EVERYTHING is perfectly willing to suck up RT.

Situationally, it's good. Particularly now that you can get some free "extra targets" from all those Air ranks you're using for your own Tonis & Disk & Haste & ....

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 290
Author: ZHOUY1
Date: on 09/01/2015 12:30 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


Confluence air elementals are immune to most forms of control and repeatedly use maneuvers every 2 seconds. If open cast slow works on them I can see it being useful in a crowd of those.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 291
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/01/2015 12:38 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


Golem is an interesting case. But wouldn't the tonis bolt be better? Good chance of knockdown which would waste it's next turn and also sets you up for more damage on following attacks? Also it actually does some damage itself to help bleed it down which is where you ultimately need to go to kill it.

As a warmage I just use feint. It's faster, cheaper and has better additional effects than slow. As well as actually producing an RT advantage rather than stalemate.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 292
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 09/01/2015 12:55 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


Depends on how fast you (expect to) kill it.

If your next cast is lethal, you're better off using the lowest mana choice; there, Slow beats Hand of Tonis.

If you have a not-unreasonable expectation of there being tons of interruptions--like more critters spawning like crazy, or moving in/through/returning--that are severe enough that you need to deal with them (like "The Critter With The 'KillPC' Spell Always Prepped"), then you're better off using the spell with the most persistent effect. 

 EWave typically only knocks things down once.  I'm pretty sure Call Wind does the same.
 Slow stays on for a minute, and gives the thing +3RT.

People are talking about how fantabulous CMan Feint is for the WarMage and how they can't afford to survive without it, and fundamentally what that does is "give critters RT". 

 So does this.  And, look, it's a spell, that costs a mere 4 mana, not 12p/8m training points for the first rank of CM...
 And--with some of that Lore that you're training for your Haste & Disk & Tonis Bolt & ...--you get to have it affect additional targets, too.  Show me the CMan Multi-Feint.



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 293
Author: MDEVEAU
Date: on 09/01/2015 12:59 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


Feint also can shift their stance though and uses another pool of potential expenditure.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 294
Author: BLACKKOBOLD
Date: on 09/01/2015 01:04 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


It would certainly add a great deal more flavor and utility to the spell.

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 295
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/01/2015 01:05 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


>If your next cast is lethal, you're better off using the lowest mana choice; there, Slow beats Hand of Tonis.

That makes no sense. If your next cast is lethal why bother casting slow at all?

>Slow stays on for a minute

If any critter is alive 1 minute after casting slow at them then you fail at wizarding.

>And--with some of that Lore that you're training for your Haste & Disk & Tonis Bolt & ...--you get to have it affect additional targets, too.

Tonis Bolt is 20 ranks, most wizards stop at 24 ranks for the haste benefit. So, okay, 20 ranks. That would mean slow now affects 2 critters, assuming no one enters the room and ends up being one of the two targets.

Honest question, Krakii. Do you even play a wizard? Or just log your wizard in to do enchanting?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 296
Author: BLACKKOBOLD
Date: on 09/01/2015 01:09 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


I'm fairly certain monsters don't have normal RT and cast RT like players do. They have what I call an action RT. For instance, when a lich casts haste it makes every action it takes faster. Not just physical attacks. Slow should work in the same way. If you cast slow at a monster, it will add 3s to its initial action RT, then when it makes a move it will add the slow effect to the next action RT which counts down from the time of the previous move. So it should slow down all forms of attack, not just AS/DS.

I can see this being useful when taking on groups of monsters.

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 297
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 09/01/2015 01:10 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


In that comparison, then, Sleep comes out ahead: prone and offensive. 

 That's why weapon-swinging Bards like them some Lullabye.  <nod>

Situationally, you may want to use any of those tools. Some times you CANNOT for some reason (already burnt all your Stamina, or the creature is Undead so not at all sleepy, or whatever) so that's when it's nice to have another tool in the box.

That's why there are so darn many disablers, and defensive spells, and AS bonuses, and so on: back when we could only train just one spell per level (at best), most people went all the way up just one list (like, "To get RepelUndeadTrue/325") before diversifying too terribly much. So each list had to have their own, more-or-less complete & competitive, toolkit. 

 THEN we got this whole newfangled 'train in more than one spell per level', and lemme tell you, it ain't never been the same again!  <flail>  </lawn>



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 298
Author: DRAFIX
Date: on 09/01/2015 01:43 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


You had me at puppies

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 299
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/01/2015 02:05 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


People are talking about how fantabulous CMan Feint is for the WarMage and how they can't afford to survive without it, and fundamentally what that does is "give critters RT".
So does this. And, look, it's a spell, that costs a mere 4 mana, not 12p/8m training points for the first rank of CM...
And--with some of that Lore that you're training for your Haste & Disk & Tonis Bolt & ...--you get to have it affect additional targets, too. Show me the CMan Multi-Feint.

You heard it here first folks. Ditch those useless CM ranks and invest airlore so you can get your Slow on! Use those fixskills now!


All complaints should be sent to Krakii@play.net

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 301
Author: TANDL
Date: on 09/01/2015 02:35 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


I can see a couple uses off hand for the spell as it stands now, especially for air mages. Assuming it doesn't interact with the shroud one of them would actually be pretty potent. Compared to before that is a pretty big improvement.

Tal.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 302
Author: ERYKK2
Date: on 09/01/2015 02:43 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


I'm just curious, when do you GM's see a Wizard using this spell?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 303
Author: RROY
Date: on 09/01/2015 03:37 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


I like the new 3 sec rt on casting, but still the continued slow effect is not enough to be useful. Just an elf about town...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 304
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 09/01/2015 03:46 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


Keith, I didn't say the CM was useless, I said that Slow has a use. (Like, any creature that cannot be put to sleep.)

And like the other knock-down spells, there are certain critters--the ones with a ton of legs, or the amorphous ones--that are difficult to "knock down". So... don't use knock-downs on them?

But EVERYTHING suffers from RT.

.

I think too many Wizards have benefitted too long from being carpenters. One Hammer Fits All. (Also known as, "When the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.") 

 If you're hasting, you blitz through things with timeless weapon swings.
 If you're rapidfiring, you blitz through things with timeless spellcasts.
 If you're immolating, you blitz through things with instant-kills.

They're taking away your 20-pound sledges.

Learn to use--and when it is appropriate to use--your ball peen, versus your 5-pound sledge, versus your rubber mallet.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 305
Author: PCOFFEY77
Date: on 09/01/2015 03:52 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


So...does this then, after the 3 seconds for both the caster and target, slow the target's next action I take it? I think I've seen this happen to me a few times where my RT will change from 5 seconds to 8 seconds or something like that.

I guess having the ability to run away is kind of nice since the target will have a hard RT, just not sure what both of us are going to do for 3 seconds aside from stare at one another and shrug.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 306
Author: DARKSYDE32
Date: on 09/01/2015 04:22 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


So will the group friendly open cast version of this spell count as a hit on creatures with regards to bounties? Like if I hit a group of bandits with this spell will I get credit when the bandits inevitably die? Also, does this spell add a penalty to creature CMANs?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 307
Author: HJELTE
Date: on 09/01/2015 04:40 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


Krakii, henceforth, you will be known as Donny... cause you're really out of your element.

You still absolutely failed to highlight an occasion when casting the spell is advantageous against other disablers. +3 Seconds of RT, over 60 seconds, if we assume 5 RT, would result in additional RT for 7 swings, yielding a total of 24s of RT. That's if a critter lasts a full minute... which, I'm honestly not sure if you've played gemstone in the last 20 years... but that's

I already did the analysis that an average crit death cycle for any AS/DS resolved attack is round 10 seconds for a bolting wizard, less than that for any melee Class, and more than that for paladins.

With hitting a single target, you're better off casting 505, for a knockdown + Stun effect, which would product similar total non-attacking time, realized immediately rather than distributed across the next minute. Instantaneous realizations are worth a ton in Gemstone, just take a look at Mstrikes.

When hitting multiple targets, you can realize a similar return on 410, with almost competitive RTs, again, realized instantly. Additionally, knockdown effects of 410 result in reduced AS, and standing always forces down stance... yay.

The only grey area is 2 creatures in the room, where 504 MAY be advantageous... ... but I'd still rather just 410 the crowd, and have the RT realized earlier.

~Whirlin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 308
Author: MDEVEAU
Date: on 09/01/2015 04:49 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


Could make it random or tie the ability to call forth a specific element to ELs or attunement.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 309
Author: GOLDENOAK2
Date: on 09/01/2015 04:53 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


The only grey area is 2 creatures in the room, where 504 MAY be advantageous... ... but I'd still rather just 410 the crowd, and have the RT realized earlier.

Just out of curiousity...would an ewave after slow get the additional slow RT penalties? Also is slow a set number of seconds per action, or is it a percentage of RT...like haste is.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 310
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 09/01/2015 05:50 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


- When a target is successfully hit with the spell Slow (and is not already affected by the spell), it will now be instantly given 3 seconds of roundtime.

This was my biggest complaint about this spell (that it didn't even matter until they took their next action). THANK YOU!

-- Robert

P.S. I'm still looking for my Immolation like disabler spell but I'm in a better mood while I wait now! :p

"All wizards are beginners; some of us have just been beginning longer!"

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 311
Author: GOLDENOAK2
Date: on 09/01/2015 05:55 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


Should make it so a channeled cast of slow against an already slowed target would cause grapple/crushing damage as the temporal fields clash causing the targets body to tear itself apart. Or not...just a silly idea I had.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 312
Author: DEANSMITH
Date: on 09/01/2015 06:13 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


>Just out of curiousity...would an ewave after slow get the additional slow RT penalties? Also is slow a set number of seconds per action, or is it a percentage of RT...like haste is.

Yes.

Every action attempted for the next 60 seconds will have additional RT applied.

The exact formula for Slow hasn't been worked out, that I know, but I can safely say that it closely resembles Haste in that it gives a combination of flat RT penalties (based on MjE ranks and Air Lore) and percentage penalties (based on MjE).

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 313
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 09/01/2015 06:22 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


GOLDENOAK2
Just out of curiousity...would an ewave after slow get the additional slow RT penalties? Also is slow a set number of seconds per action, or is it a percentage of RT...like haste is.

It definitely does. Anytime a target is subject to roundtime, it takes the intended amount and increases it (just like haste, but the reverse).

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 314
Author: GOLDENOAK2
Date: on 09/01/2015 06:25 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


It definitely does. Anytime a target is subject to roundtime, it takes the intended amount and increases it (just like haste, but the reverse).

So a slow then an ewave would potentially be much more devastating RT-wise than an ewave by itself.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 317
Author: HJELTE
Date: on 09/01/2015 06:50 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


Just out of curiousity...would an ewave after slow get the additional slow RT penalties? Also is slow a set number of seconds per action, or is it a percentage of RT...like haste is.


Nah... Waste of mana... Critters die in ~10 seconds anyway. If I cast an e-wave, if it hit for full potency, they'd both be dead around the time they'd be able to stand if I relied on single-target attacks. A critter not attacking at all is better than a critter attacking more slowly. Only reason I may cast it if there are two critters would be for mana efficiency... but honestly, if they're critters where I can take an AS/DS attack, I wouldn't bother slowing in the first place, and if they're more deadly, like a caster or a CMAN user, I'd e-wave because a deadly CMAN/spell is still deadly, even if it's slow.

~Whirlin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 318
Author: BLACKKOBOLD
Date: on 09/01/2015 06:52 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


Yes. Slow applies additional RT to every action that would normally cause RT. So it is tacked onto every action the monster takes, as well as outside sources of RT like e-wave. In fact, I expect if you wanted to you could use a second cast of slow to induce the 3s RT + the slowing effect from the first cast. And unlike ewave, I expect that RT would stack.

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 319
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/01/2015 07:24 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


I like the idea of adding a flat penalty to Evade/Block/Parry when hit with slow.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 320
Author: DAID
Date: on 09/02/2015 12:50 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


I might be even more excited about the Pious Trial aspect than Slow itself, but these are nice updates. I've surely made use of 1602 with my paladin (especially for looting creatures that decay quickly or creatures that know Haste since it drops that spell), but I've been playing my Paladin much longer.


Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog

>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 321
Author: MDEVEAU
Date: on 09/02/2015 05:26 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


May benefit from it on champions in the Arena. I like the idea of adding a hindrance to EPD.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 322
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 09/02/2015 07:40 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


Whirlin, are you certain that in your 100+ levels of the game, you have never seen any creature be completely unaffected by EWave. (Or Call Wind. Or you get a bad roll with Tonis Bolt. Or whatever.) Likewise, you've never been running low on mana.

Seriously, how hard is it to see that you have different tools, some costing more mana, some costing less, with different types of benefits (AS versus CS versus level comparison [EWave])? Some times you use one, some times you use another. Damn, it's almost like having nine different bolt spells: some times you use one, some times another.

Have I ever once said that it was the be-all/end-all of disablers? No. (Despite apparent attribution from all & sundry.) Have I said that it can be a useful tool (particularly now with additional targets for free)? Yes. It's the cheapest of all of them except Sleep, and affects the things that Sleep never will.

Wizards need to train more in Arcane Symbols, because Reading Comprehension == not so much.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 323
Author: BLACKKOBOLD
Date: on 09/02/2015 08:03 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


You almost had a sound argument, Krakii. And then you mentioned bolt spells. The only times this applies to bolts are at lower levels where mana is prioritized over speed/risk aversion because you simply don't have the mana to use your more powerful spells. Once you reach a certain point - and I expect the reason you aren't aware of this is due to your habit of playing characters at the low end of the spectrum - that is no longer true and you will almost always use the most powerful bolt spell available - even if the target has vulnerability. The only other time this isn't true are where immunities come into play or places like Nelemar 2nd floor or the Bowels where using some elements can get you killed!

We have many different bolts, but they are all basically the same spell in function. That needs to change.

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 324
Author: HJELTE
Date: on 09/02/2015 08:26 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


For a name of Krakii, I'd expect you to have a better grasp of basic mechanics.

1) This is NOT cheaper than sleep BY A LONG SHOT. Please AT LEAST have a BASIC understanding of the class and spells before attempting to go toe-to-toe with me. 2) I have pointed out exactly how this is NOT a useful tool, using Mathematical analysis of the effects over time, you have NOT disproved ANYTHING I have stated, and yet you're trying to make an argument that I am wrong, baselessly. 3) You keep making assumptions about creatures that do not exist that are immune to this, immune to that. Why don't you stop proposing mythical creatures, and start giving concrete examples that fit the requirements that you're trying to define, and I'll tell you exactly how I hunted them, or what else I hunted around that level and why. 4) You appear to have NEVER had a capped character, or anything post 60, because the game changes DRASTICALLY once combat maneuvers and spellcasters are unavoidable in hunting grounds. Everything up until level 60 is radically different, and much easier.


~Whirlin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 325
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 09/02/2015 08:47 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


Are there or are there not creatures with multiple legs, or amorphous body types that don't have an 'up', or that are simply so colossal that they simply cannot be knocked over?

Is it possible that there might ever be more of those? (Like, in capped areas.)

.

And to prove my point about "reading comprehension == fail"... 

Whirlin: "This is NOT cheaper than sleep BY A LONG SHOT."
Krakii: "It's the cheapest of all of them except Sleep"

Thank you for making my point conclusively.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 327
Author: STORMTOV
Date: on 09/02/2015 08:52 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


I should prefix this with my wizard is not quite 40 as was is useful at what level makes a big difference but I like the change. Can now use this for a setup for other disablers, previously you were putting yourself at risk from a maneuver if you cast slow before a disabler but now they get the same rt (although as the caster I only get the soft RT). I know people have been saying that if a critter is alive more than 10 seconds you are doing it wrong, but for me they are often getting up before my ewave ends if multiple creatures. So maybe when I am up with the big boys I might not use it but for now looks very useful. Just like I don't expect to be chain casting high level spells at my level I do not expect all low level spells to be useful to me at high levels.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 328
Author: BLACKKOBOLD
Date: on 09/02/2015 08:56 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


<3) You keep making assumptions about creatures that do not exist that are immune to this, immune to that. Why don't you stop proposing mythical creatures, and start giving concrete examples

Not that I necessarily want to agree with Krakii (Ewww, GROSS!), but since you asked...

Rift crawlers are immune to ewave, tremors, and call wind. Cerebralites are immune to ewave, call wind messaging indicates it hits them but it doesn't actually slow them down or knock them down (I assume it forces stance though?).

Cerebralites also exist in the scatter, where you might use slow when they are mixed into a swarm.

I suppose these are rare instances, but they do happen to apply in both of the areas where I hunt.

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 329
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 09/02/2015 09:27 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


Actually, Konacon, a question: 

 When you announced the immediate RT effect, you specifically said "3 seconds".
 ("HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!", on 09/01/2015 at 12:51 PM EDT #2308)

Haste already had a +1-to-3 second additional RT, from the GS4 conversion when Lores got added. +1s at 100 skill (actually 102/24 ranks), and the extra two at 200 skill/100 ranks, and 300 skill/200 ranks. 

 (Per Kitrina, "GemStone IV - Lores, Part I" on 10/9/2003 at 12:55:19 PM #380)

.

SHOULD that "3 seconds" that you reference actually be, "The effective RT addition inflicted by the caster"? (Subtext, "to include the benefits of Lore training.")

Because most Mages--of any stripe--are going to have the 24 ranks of EL:Air to get their Hand of Tonis turned into a bolt... which would also qualify them for a net total of four seconds (4s) RT on the initial cast.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 330
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 09/02/2015 09:29 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


'

Don't you just hate it when we wind up having things to say that support the other? It's like one of the fundamental underpinnings of the universe just did the Macarena, or something. <shudder>

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 331
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/02/2015 09:33 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


> SHOULD that "3 seconds" that you reference actually be, "The effective RT addition inflicted by the caster"? (Subtext, "to include the benefits of Lore training.")

No. It's 3 seconds regardless of lore. The intention of the addition was for it to make up for the cast RT (Although it is STILL 3 seconds when under the effects of Rapid Fire. It's literally just always 3 seconds.).

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 332
Author: BLACKKOBOLD
Date: on 09/02/2015 09:35 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


'

I know. I feel dirty.

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 333
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 09/02/2015 09:55 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


I think a lot of people are seriously underestimating the impact Slow has on a creature (or player). If you notice, the Elemental Lore, Air benefit adds a flat modifier, but surely there's a base effect (otherwise the spell would do nothing with 0 lore)...

Go test Slow and Elemental Wave on another player and compare the roundtime they would have got with and without Slow.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 334
Author: RISHIB1
Date: on 09/02/2015 10:07 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


yeah, I read this and I thought...this would be fantastic on plane 4. Anything that delays a crawler from burrowing on you is always good. Would it stop crusaders' haste effect as well?

Rishi - Player of Kembal


Speaking to Plur, Belnia says, "You're no Kembal."


[Roll result: -2112 (open d100: 82)] A giantman thief crouches and sweeps a leg at you, but only manages to trip himself.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 335
Author: HJELTE
Date: on 09/02/2015 10:18 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


And to prove my point about "reading comprehension == fail"...
Whirlin: "This is NOT cheaper than sleep BY A LONG SHOT."
Krakii: "It's the cheapest of all of them except Sleep"

Both of us said it wrong... Slow IS cheaper than Sleep. This is our cheapest 'disabler'... if you can even call it that. And I still wouldn't use it.

@Tav;

Yes, I have found when call wind hits something, even if it's not knocked down, it's a stance pushdown, with potentially some RT as well. Thank you for actually providing a concrete example though... ... ... Are crawlers also immune to stun?

~Whirlin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 336
Author: BLACKKOBOLD
Date: on 09/02/2015 10:35 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


I'm not sure you're looking at this from the player perspective, Estild. The 3s addition does ensure that I'm not making myself vulnerable by casting this spell. However, in order for the additional benefits to pay off, they need to be able to attack me. In the world of instant death criticals, that's a bad bet. Where I hunt, the goal is to prioritize preventing the most dangerous attacks. Slowing them down is of limited use because all it takes is one attack to kill me. Meanwhile, I have other options which reliably prevent those attacks. So slow as a standalone is rather unimpressive.

Now if I were to allow things to attack by not utilizing my other abilities to prevent them, then slow becomes more attractive. But I think you'll agree that that's a rather contrived scenario. Why would I make myself more vulnerable just to justify the existence of the slow spell?

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 337
Author: RISHIB1
Date: on 09/02/2015 10:37 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


>Thank you for actually providing a concrete example though... ... ... Are crawlers also immune to stun?

No, but they shake off all stuns (and webs, for that matter) as their next action when action RT runs out.

Rishi - Player of Kembal


Speaking to Plur, Belnia says, "You're no Kembal."


[Roll result: -2112 (open d100: 82)] A giantman thief crouches and sweeps a leg at you, but only manages to trip himself.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 338
Author: BLACKKOBOLD
Date: on 09/02/2015 10:38 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


Crawlers aren't immune to stuns, but they shake stuns. They are not immune to sleep, but all it does is force their stance (no -50 DS benefit for "lying down"). Basically, you have to wait for them to attack you, then keep them stunned with bolts until you luck out on a crit or bleed them out of health. None of our disablers are particularly worthwhile. And slow won't change this because you still have to wait for them to move into offensive stance unless your CS is good enough to reliably sleep them...which is still quite costly given the average cost to kill them with bolts is over 40 mana.

Rapid shock worked great against them, though.

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 339
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 09/02/2015 10:42 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


Taverkin
I'm not sure you're looking at this from the player perspective, Estild. The 3s addition does ensure that I'm not making myself vulnerable by casting this spell. However, in order for the additional benefits to pay off, they need to be able to attack me. In the world of instant death criticals, that's a bad bet. Where I hunt, the goal is to prioritize preventing the most dangerous attacks. Slowing them down is of limited use because all it takes is one attack to kill me. Meanwhile, I have other options which reliably prevent those attacks. So slow as a standalone is rather unimpressive.

I think you're misunderstanding the use case, Taverkin. Slow is not intended to replace any other spell or disabler. It augments them and your overall defense since the target is reacting much slower. Regardless of what your current strategy is to deal with any creature, you can now just immediately lead off with a Slow, then resume the other strategy. You've lost absolutely nothing by casting slow, but if you induce any roundtime on the target or they perform an action, it'll be that much longer before they can react again.

So if your normal strategy is to walk into a room, cast 410, then 910 until dead. You can now walk into the room, cast 504, cast 410, then 910 until dead. You've gained nothing but an advantage over the other strategy. [I know this isn't your actual strategy; it's just an illustration]

It doesn't matter if the targets are usually dead by the time a full elemental wave has wore off, because as you know, that's not always the case and nor do you always hit a target for the full 20 seconds. In either case, Slow is helping and you didn't put yourself in more danger by casting it first instead of another spell.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 340
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/02/2015 10:51 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


Honestly, I'm curious about how much wrecking would be caused by 504 (Open), 410, 517 Spam... Should be a pretty devastating area attack, although for Fire only getting 906 is a little weak, but if you're Air it's the same.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 341
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 09/02/2015 11:13 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


"Both of us said it wrong... Slow IS cheaper than Sleep." -- Whirlin

I forgot about the increasing mana cost for Sleep/501. D'oh. I was looking at them as a 1-mana spell and a 4-mana spell, so hence, "cheapest except for."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 342
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/02/2015 11:14 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


I think slow is pretty nice, TBH. I do wish Sleep got the same multi-target treatment as slow, though. Then you could definitely consider both spell a net win.

That being said, how is something that is slowed NOT receiving a penalty to evade? That makes no sense at all. At least throw in a token 10%.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 343
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/02/2015 11:25 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


>Go test Slow and Elemental Wave on another player and compare the roundtime they would have got with and without Slow.

You are buffeted by the dark ethereal waves, and knocked to the ground. You are pinned in place, unable to move. Roundtime: 12 sec.

You are buffeted by the dark ethereal waves, and knocked to the ground. You are pinned in place, unable to move. Roundtime: 8 sec. Roundtime changed to 13 seconds.

You are buffeted by the dark ethereal waves, and knocked to the ground. You are pinned in place, unable to move. Roundtime: 16 sec. Roundtime changed to 25 seconds. 

 AS: +37 vs DS: +90 with AvD: +19 + d100 roll: +63 = +29
  A clean miss.

Roundtime: 3 sec. Roundtime changed to 6 seconds.

So it has a percentage effect like haste does, and I gotta admit that third cast of ewave was pretty awesome with it adding 9 seconds to the RT. A couple of things though. It seems like critters recover from ewave a lot faster than players do. Even if I could affect a critter with a 16 second ewave it's unlikely I would need the extra 9 seconds to deal with them.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 344
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/02/2015 11:52 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


From a pick your battles standpoint, is the fact that Slow is getting a buff, regardless of magnitude, worth much discussion? Obviously there are different opinions on whether it's a super buff or a small buff, but nobody can claim it's a negative (unless you think that other nerfs are because of this, but I'm going to say probably not).

And yeah, I'm right on board discussing other shifst, but for Slow at least, can we stop at un-enthused if that's the response?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 345
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/02/2015 12:03 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


I think Slow should be used to some extent as an example of how to improve a given type of spell with the ELR. That is why I think it is worthy of discussion.

Ice Patch and Sleep would be both be markedly improved by having the multiple target E-lore unlock, even in place of their newly added buffs.

Drop the -20 buff from 501 and add multitarget E-lore unlock, even at seed 10 if you must, though I think the mana costs help to balance the fact that this is a level 1 spell.

Downgrade the instant damage the spell provides and the ability of E-Lore Water to lengthen the duration of the spell (if you must), but allow multi-target E-lore unlocks. This would make for a truly awesome setup with the new changes coming to Cone.

These changes, IMO, would give these spells a truly defined niche use for those with the appropriate lore requirements.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 346
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/02/2015 12:05 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


>From a pick your battles standpoint, is the fact that Slow is getting a buff, regardless of magnitude, worth much discussion?

I think it's a few things. Sorcs got pretty much nothing but buffs during HSN, I don't recall a single nerf. I think wizards were looking for more of the same. Instead it was announced that 3 spells were being outright nerfed and implied that the upcoming changes would help soften the impending nerfs.

So far we have seen very little to assuage our concerns over the upcoming nerfs.

If the rest of the "buffs" from here on out are more of what we have already seen then it's a major blow to the wizard profession when looking at both the nerfs and the buffs.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 347
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/02/2015 12:20 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


Was the idea of a TD pushdown ever considered for Ice Patch? If the idea was to make the spell more situationally useful while at the same time opening the door for more alternatives to Immolate, I think a TD pushdown would fit this spell nicely.

1. More wizards would be able to use it due to not needing to be so focused on Major Elemental ranks for CS. Ensuring that this 12 mana disabler/setup spell lands, and lands hard would raise its value to a greater number of wizards, not just those hunting with the ability to ensure a minimum of a 101 endroll per cast.

2. Wizards need alternatives to Immolate for CS spells. Ice Patch with proper TD pushdowns could help in providing that alternative.

3. Consider this spell has a 12 mana per-cast cost and only affects 1 creature. The creature is also still able to swing and cast during this time, thus further weakening it as a choice over other spells.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 348
Author: DRUMPEL
Date: on 09/02/2015 12:21 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


>>If the rest of the "buffs" from here on out are more of what we have already seen then it's a major blow to the wizard profession when looking at both the nerfs and the buffs.

I'm still trying to figure out if Lores are worth it for the "buffs" they provide. If they are, what's the trade off for someone maxing out a single lore aside from a few extra bonus points from the diminishing returns? Currently it feels we should all train a little in each lore for the best "buffs" with the lowest diminishing returns.

I'm patiently waiting to see what all is being offered...plus I'm rather enjoying the not-so-playful banter going on in the Developer's Corner here. So far it's been interesting on both sides, the additions/removals to mechanics in the game and to the reactions we've all had on the forums.

-Drumple

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 349
Author: BLACKKOBOLD
Date: on 09/02/2015 12:33 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


Okay, but I think what the others are saying is that in any scenario where another disabler works better they've wasted 3 seconds for no practical gain. If, for instance, I can ewave once and not have to recast, slow was a waste of time. I happen to agree that the spell is situationally useful and I'm not complaining about it. But I can see why others may not be impressed.

No. If my normal strategy is to ewave and cast 910 until dead, then casting slow was a waste of 4 mana and 3 seconds. Slow only comes into play upon their next RT, which never happens if everything is dead before it recovers from the RT from 410 and/or the stun from 910. Even if you're looking at this from the perspective of risk aversion with no other considerations - no additional risk was added - even that isn't true. Seriously. Try hunting the scatter some time and tell me how often 3 seconds (or less!) makes all the difference!

Again, I can see where this spell would be useful. But I'm not sure you're really trying to understand the other side with this argument. The spell is situationally useful at best. And that's fine. It was completely useless before and it is now somewhat useful and very low mana cost. I'm fine with it.

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 350
Author: BLACKKOBOLD
Date: on 09/02/2015 12:36 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


Well, they are proposing additions that would make the spell unique. The big problem is that too often the effect is overridden by other spells. For instance, e-wave. If they never get up from e-wave, slow doesn't help. But if slow has a unique effect beyond increasing RT, maybe you would use it anyway? The EBP reduction, for instance. In practice, EBP isn't a big deal for wizards, but in large swarms, in group scenarios? For 4 mana a wizard could mitigate a significant amount of EBP for the entire group? Total win right there!

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 351
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 09/02/2015 01:23 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


Taverkin
If, for instance, I can ewave once and not have to recast, slow was a waste of time.
No. If my normal strategy is to ewave and cast 910 until dead, then casting slow was a waste of 4 mana and 3 seconds. Slow only comes into play upon their next RT, which never happens if everything is dead before it recovers from the RT from 410 and/or the stun from 910.

That assumes you ewave (1) affects the target and (2) subjects it to enough roundtime for you kill it before it can react. I'm sure you would agree those are both not always true. If they are, it doesn't sound like wizards are in a bad place for hunting.  :)

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 352
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 09/02/2015 01:38 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


I fully admit I am skimming these folders as I don't have the time, but does everyone really prefer a RANKS/20 to a seed?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 353
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/02/2015 01:45 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


Ranks/X is good for hard values, I suppose. Skill/X is better.

I think they like seeds for % chance. That way you get more when you're lower level. The problem is they like to use a 1% chance per seed bonus, which tends to suck regardless of what level or training you have.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 354
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 09/02/2015 01:51 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


The only thing (that I can see) that is using ranks/20 is the additional targets affected. 

 Since most Mages are going to get up to 24 ranks for Tonis Bolt, this is like "second target of Slow == free."

Any of them who go higher, for things like more vortices and bigger disk capacities, can see more targets affected (at 40, 60, and so on, ranks).

.

Given some of the formulae used, like "Seed9" or "Seed10" or "(Seed4)/2"... 20 ranks apiece don't sound at all bad, thank you kindly. It's certainly a hell of a lot more comprehensible.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 355
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 09/02/2015 01:59 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


did anyone actually compare ranks/20 to the seed table?

Even at seed 10 you get more with a seed than ranks/20.

Max targets with ranks/20 = 11 and lower level characters are severely hindered.

Max targets with seed 10 = 13

A level 60 character that goes 1x in air lore would have 6 total targets under a seed 10, with the current ranks/20 the level 60 character only has 4 total targets.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 356
Author: ZHOUY1
Date: on 09/02/2015 02:03 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


For lores, the design that appeals to me more is (Lore Ranks / Character Level) ratio checks as I feel it is easier to balance and allows implementation of things like "if you 2x in a specific lore, you will have such and such extra abilities" and have that carry through a character's career instead of having to design something to work equally well for both low level and post-cap characters.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 357
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/02/2015 02:25 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


Or how about variable rewards at each bonus?

For instance, you get a 5% chance of a flare at bonus 1 of seed 4, 4% at bonus 3, 2% at bonus 4, etc

That way, lower level characters actually see the benefits early, and people will be encouraged to dabble in lores because you can get tangible bonuses with a modest investment.

1% chance all the way up only favors huge investments far, far into the game.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 358
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/02/2015 04:16 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


Have slow lower their maneuver and/or CML attack value, then it'll have some real practical value.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 359
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/02/2015 04:23 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


I'm not sure a TD-pushdown on a crummy effect is the way to go. Even with no warding is this spell worth the mana cost?

I'd much prefer some effort was made to make the effect in some way desirable. Preventing the frozen critter from using maneuver attacks, or melee attacks, or something to that effect.

In what way does rooting a critter benefit us? It's not like critters run away very often.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 360
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/02/2015 04:37 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


I was thinking multitarget + Cone of water for one.

Rooted status will likely stop a lot of dangerous maneuver too, like Charge. It should also stop stuff like bullrush, etc. I suppose you could go play around in a Warcamp to figure it out.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 361
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/02/2015 05:42 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


DOES it actually stop those things or are you making presumptions? That's certainly not on the wiki entry. If it already has that functionality, it would be nice to know.

Cone is already slated to use cold for water mages.

"Water will use Minor Cold (1709)"



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 363
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/02/2015 05:46 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


Yes, the Rooted status stops the charge maneuver. I said the other things would need to be worked out, possibly via a Warcamp.

Perhaps Ice Patch could instead upgrade Cone shots to Major Cold. If you're casting cone, you're likely in a crowd, so you'd want Ball bolt splashes, would you not.

At least, I PRESUME (dun dun DUN) one would.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 364
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/02/2015 06:33 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


I would certainly be interested in seeing what 5 simultaneous casts of major cold look like in a room full of targets :D

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 365
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/02/2015 06:40 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


That's what i'm saying, man. Multi-target Ice Patch + Cone of Elements. They seem to like massive expenditures of mana these days. It sounds right up their alley.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 366
Author: GOLDENOAK2
Date: on 09/02/2015 07:14 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


Too bad Ice Patch doesn't work like the new tremors with the foot stomp activation. It would be cool if it had charges and could be activated several time from one cast.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 367
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/02/2015 07:47 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


I don't immediately see how it would. Stomp and spread ice? Or do you mean the CS version somehow? I haven't played with lots of water lore but the base level for the room effect is terrible from my attempts at using it.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 368
Author: BLACKKOBOLD
Date: on 09/02/2015 08:21 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


Taverkin stomps his foot down forcefully! Shards of ice suddenly burst from the ground in a wave, moving in the direction of a murky soul siphon! The wave of ice engulfs the soul siphon's lower body, completely encasing it in ice!

I dunno. I could see it.

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 369
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/02/2015 08:26 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


How about pointing at things instead?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 370
Author: CIRCADIANZEBRA
Date: on 09/02/2015 08:33 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


Taverkin stomps his foot down forcefully!
Shards of ice suddenly burst from the ground in a wave, moving in the direction of a murky soul siphon!
The wave of ice engulfs the soul siphon's lower body, completely encasing it in ice!

Do you have to put on a big musical number about your feelings while you do this, thought?

>flee

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 371
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 09/02/2015 09:17 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


Do you want to build a snow-man?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 372
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/03/2015 09:34 AM PDT
Subject: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


Hi everybody! (As usual, check the == MECHANICS == section if you hate me.)

So I hear you all don't like seeds. Well, I don't know what it is that you have against plants (Maybe you're not a fan of THE WATERING? I don't know) but given that maybe you'll like today's update! Alright, on to talking about what's going on... First off, this is not a watering. We're talking EARTH today (Plants? See what I did there? HA!) because we're gonna give out a neat defensive bonus. The spell is called DEflection, but we thought we might add some REflection into it, since those words are already so close to each other. Let's get on to what actually happened!

MECHANICS

At 15 ranks of Elemental Lore, Earth this spell unlocks the ability to reflect bolt attacks. The base chance is 5% + 1% for every 10 additional lore ranks (past 15). The reflected bolt will hit a random (group/player unfriendly) target in the room with a -20 AS applied to the reflected attack.

Some notes:

- The check for reflection happens before any AS/DS checks, so this effect happens whether or not the attack would have hit you. - The reflected bolt does not consider hidden/invisible targets. - The reflected bolt CAN hit the original attacker.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 373
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/03/2015 09:37 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


Sounds like a pretty awesome change.

I can't wait for the first log where a bolt is reflected off of a wizard and kills the wizard's grouped hunting partner.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 374
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 09/03/2015 09:38 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


See, now THIS is whatchacall "value added".

Nice.

.

Does rounding work? (i.e. "step of 10 ranks" is actually reached at 20 ranks [base 15 +5, because "5/10 == .5 == 1" many times in GemStone, like for CM ranks == AS, for example])

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 375
Author: GOLDENOAK2
Date: on 09/03/2015 10:15 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


The reflected bolt will hit a random (group/player unfriendly) target in the room with a -20 AS applied to the reflected attack.

The phrasing here is ambiguous...does this mean it will hit any target that is player unfriendly...or any player/group that is unfriendly (ungrouped) as well. Cannot tell from the description if it is player friendly.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 376
Author: KUBI
Date: on 09/03/2015 10:17 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


Can you clarify if group/player unfriendly means it will only hit a target determined to by non-friendly, or if the reflection is not group/player friendly and can target group members or random bystanders?

I feel like there is only one right answer here, and if it can target group members this is ... I don't mean to be inflammatory but it's just flat out dumb.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 377
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/03/2015 10:18 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


The reflected bolt can hit anyone that is not the person reflecting the bolt.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 378
Author: KUBI
Date: on 09/03/2015 10:22 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


Do you hate your friends? Want to cause mayhem wherever you go? Enjoy murder but don't have the guts to do the deed yourself?

Become a wizard today!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 379
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/03/2015 10:24 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


This was, in fact, expected. However, I feel like this may be a bit of an overreaction.

- The reflected bolt already has a -20 AS applied to it. - I promise that there is not, in fact, additional code in this that causes the bolts to seek out and destroy your hunting partners. I just double checked.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 380
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/03/2015 10:25 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>The reflected bolt can hit anyone that is not the person reflecting the bolt.

Can a reflected bolt be reflected? Like if 10 wizards are all in the same room can one cast at another and watch as the bolt (possibly) bounces back and forth like a light show?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 381
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 09/03/2015 10:25 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>> The reflected bolt can hit anyone that is not the person reflecting the bolt.

This make sense. It was something attacking you (critter or person). It's just as though they changed their mind and decided to attack someone else instead (but with a penalty applied to the attack)..

So if you reflect a bolt and it kills your hunting partner, they should THANK YOU for attempting to diffuse the bolt before it got to them. :p

Random question on this: Does this mean that if someone casts lightning in a water room that the resulting bolt from the water (is it a bolt at that point?) could be deflected as well?

-- Robert aka Faulkil

"All wizards are beginners; some of us have just been beginning longer!"

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 382
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/03/2015 10:26 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


> Can a reflected bolt be reflected?

Not at this time. Sorry!

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 383
Author: GOLDENOAK2
Date: on 09/03/2015 10:26 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


Would you consider making that at least group friendly? Making it reflect on your own team members might make the effect undesirable, and whats more make it where earth mages tend to avoid that particular defensive spell.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 384
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 09/03/2015 10:26 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>> Can a reflected bolt be reflected? Like if 10 wizards are all in the same room can one cast at another and watch as the bolt (possibly) bounces back and forth like a light show?

Hahahaha, that would be super awesome! I could see trying to have a competition to see how many reflections you could get before it hits someone.

-- Robert

"All wizards are beginners; some of us have just been beginning longer!"

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 385
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/03/2015 10:27 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


Yeah when I first read it was player unfriendly I was kind of surprised but then thought about it, it's not really a big of a deal. It's no different then if the critter just cast directly at the person it ended up hitting. It's not like it uses the reflecting wizard's bolt AS so if a capped character were running through a low level area they aren't going to reflect a 20AS bolt and turn it into a 500 AS bolt.

Although that would be funny.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 386
Author: COSTELLOK
Date: on 09/03/2015 10:30 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>It's no different then if the critter just cast directly at the person it ended up hitting

Better, actually, thanks to the -20 AS.


Fyonn's player

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 387
Author: TANDL
Date: on 09/03/2015 10:34 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


Yeah, if I'm in a hunting area with a hunting partner that couldn't withstand a -20 AS bolt attack from the critters... they probably shouldn't be there.

Next question in the long line of them: How does this interact with the justice system if someone is killed?

Tal.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 388
Author: KUBI
Date: on 09/03/2015 10:35 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


> This was, in fact, expected. However, I feel like this may be a bit of an overreaction.

Alright, I will actually agree with you here. For some reason I was picturing this using the wizard's AS for the bolt but it's no different than the critter picking a different target with a -20 penalty.. not that bad, unless you are having duels with bystanders or something and you end up killing random observers.

I like the concept, and I can understand why the reflection wouldn't necessarily be targeted at the caster. In hunting areas this is fine, but the idea of having it for PVP (which barely happens in GS anyway) is a little scary. How will this work with the criminal system? If AngryWizard casts a bolt at InnocentTarget and it reflects and kills someone in town, who will be arrested?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 389
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/03/2015 10:36 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


> How does this interact with the justice system if someone is killed?

I... Don't know how to answer this. I'm kind of tempted to just say "Go ahead and find out!" The reflector of the bolt should not be held accountable in any way for this. The original attacker should still be at fault.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 390
Author: KARDIOS
Date: on 09/03/2015 10:37 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


I assume it works for critters too. And I fear that it works quicker than stance dancing.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 391
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/03/2015 10:39 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


> I assume it works for critters too. And I fear that it works quicker than stance dancing.

This also applies to critters with 507 on them. Not sure what you mean about the 'quicker than stance dancing' part...

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 392
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/03/2015 10:39 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>I assume it works for critters too. And I fear that it works quicker than stance dancing.

It shouldn't work for critters.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 393
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/03/2015 10:40 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>This also applies to critters with 507 on them.

Wait, what? Critters are training in Earth Lore now?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 394
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/03/2015 10:40 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


> It shouldn't work for critters.

Why not?

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 395
Author: KARDIOS
Date: on 09/03/2015 10:46 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>> Not sure what you mean about the 'quicker than stance dancing' part... >> ~ Konacon

Step 1: I go to stance offensive. Step 2: I cast a bolt spell. Step 3: I immediately switch back to stance guarded.

Between steps 2 and 3, the target critter's Elemental Deflection activates. Does my bolt spell reflect back at me before I switch back to guarded stance? If so, then if my bolt AS reduced by 20 is higher than my offensive stance DS, then I will automatically be hit.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 396
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/03/2015 10:48 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


Ah. Yes... It is, in fact, quicker than stance dancing. You would hit yourself from an offensive stance, in this case.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 397
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/03/2015 10:51 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


How much lore do critters train in, exactly? Do they get 200 ranks of each lore? Are critters more powerful than players? Are critters Savants?! :O

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 398
Author: KARDIOS
Date: on 09/03/2015 10:51 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>> Ah. Yes... It is, in fact, quicker than stance dancing. You would hit yourself from an offensive stance, in this case. >> ~ Konacon

Don't most bolters have an AS considerably greater than then offensive stance DS? Doesn't that mean they will be hit by their own bolts at least 1 out of every 20 times they cast at a critter wearing Elemental Deflection?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 399
Author: KARDIOS
Date: on 09/03/2015 10:53 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>> How much lore do critters train in, exactly? Do they get 200 ranks of each lore? Are critters more powerful than players? Are critters Savants?! :O >>

The average critter is 50% trained in the relevant lore, according to a recent GM post.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 400
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/03/2015 10:54 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


> How much lore do critters train in, exactly?

LOTS (0.5x)

> Do they get 200 ranks of each lore?

MOAR (No)

> Are critters more powerful than players?

DUH (No)

> Are critters Savants?! :O

YES ( No :( )

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 401
Author: COSTELLOK
Date: on 09/03/2015 10:57 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


A quick patch on the critter deflection stance issue might be to have the reflected bolt delayed by a second or something like that.


Fyonn's player

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 403
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 09/03/2015 10:58 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>The reflected bolt can hit anyone that is not the person reflecting the bolt. -Konacon

Remember back when Simu would talk a lot about how they wanted to encourage group hunting?

This is how you don't do it.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 404
Author: DRAFIX
Date: on 09/03/2015 10:59 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


The issue being that critters have like every lore and every skill. Currently moulis already have the earth lore stone skin reactive flare effect that automatically neck critted someone to death. It's basically giving every wizard critter the firemage retribution effect but now the retribution effect activates on every attack and can death crit you.

Seems rather unbalanced and annoying. I don't know about you but I don't think I can take a 550AS bolt in stance offensive. It makes all wizard critters into random exploding suicidal cannon fodder.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 405
Author: COSTELLOK
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:01 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>Remember back when Simu would talk a lot about how they wanted to encourage group hunting?

"I'm worried about the small chance a critter might cast at my hunting partner, the bolt will reflect off of him, and a weakened bolt will head my way. Therefore I'll hunt alone, and there'll be a 100% chance the bolt is headed my way!"


Fyonn's player

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 406
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:01 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


> Remember back when Simu would talk a lot about how they wanted to encourage group hunting?

> This is how you don't do it.

So far I don't see how potentially reflecting the bolt (with -20 AS) at your partner makes hunting more dangerous for them. I'm listening, but I need more than this to be convinced that this is actually detrimental to your group.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 407
Author: KARDIOS
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:01 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>> >The reflected bolt can hit anyone that is not the person reflecting the bolt. -Konacon

>> Remember back when Simu would talk a lot about how they wanted to encourage group hunting?

>> This is how you don't do it.

>> ~ Methais >>

That should not be a big issue. It's the same as if the critter had cast at the other player in the first place, except the AS is 20 lower.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 408
Author: SPYRIDONM1
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:02 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


A wraith gestures at you! A wraith hurls a powerful lightning bolt at you! A shimmering field of energy flashes around you, reflecting the magic at a wraith! 

 AS: +107 vs DS: +60 with AvD: +50 + d100 roll: +31 = +128
  ... and hits for 31 points of damage!
  Glancing blow to the stomach.
  Good thing it won't be eating soon.

Wraith bolt AS is normally +137.

Mark

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 409
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:04 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>So far I don't see how potentially reflecting the bolt (with -20 AS) at your partner makes hunting more dangerous for them. I'm listening, but I need more than this to be convinced that this is actually detrimental to your group. -Konacon

I was assuming for some reason that if a bolt reflected off of me, it would be using my AS. I have already flogged myself for this.

Carry on.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 410
Author: GOLDENOAK2
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:05 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>"I'm worried about the small chance a critter might cast at my hunting partner, the bolt will reflect off of him, and a weakened bolt will head my way. Therefore I'll hunt alone, and there'll be a 100% chance the bolt is headed my way!"

Bigger worry, your bolt bounces off a creature and hits your hunting partner...

Is there any level dependency in the equation...meaning would a bolt from a 100 level wizard have the same deflection chance as from a 50th level wizard on a level 50 monster? Or is there age based scaling in the deflection chance?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 411
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:06 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


> Or is there age based scaling in the deflection chance?

There is no level based scaling in the deflection chance.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 412
Author: GOLDENOAK2
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:06 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


Wraith bolt AS is normally +137.

Mark>>

Had you already beat it up a bit?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 413
Author: DRUMPEL
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:07 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>>Wraith bolt AS is normally +137.

You found a weak wraith. Let's just leave it at that.

My wizard - though not really frequenting bolt slinging foes at the moment - gains a 15% chance to deflect bolts. Oh fun! Should I one day in the far future max Earth Lore - 23% chance to reflect bolts.

Fear me, bolt slinging creatures.....fear me!

-Drumpel

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 414
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:08 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


Can we let reflected bolts reflect like in Tgo's example?

It would be like a Mexican standoff for wizards.

Give us this, and we'll be too busy gambling to be worried about haste/rf/immolate nerfs.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 415
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:09 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>Give us this, and we'll be too busy gambling to be worried about haste/rf/immolate nerfs.

Seriously. Allowing reflected bolts to reflect would be the most awesome change to GS in decades.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 416
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:10 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


> Can we let reflected bolts reflect like in Tgo's example?

I'm not going to promise anything here, nor am I going to go into the unnecessary details about why this worked out this way.

For now I'll just tell you that I'm considering it, but am not going to give a time table on when this could be worked in.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 417
Author: GOLDENOAK2
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:10 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>There is no level based scaling in the deflection chance.

So theoretically a level 15 wizard could potentially kill a 100th level bolting wizard through deflection?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 418
Author: THROGG
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:11 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>>I don't know what it is that you have against plants<<

I was traumatized terribly by watching the original version of "Little Shop of Horrors" as a child. Nightmares of being chased down endless hallways by hordes of gigantic Audrey Twos kept me awake for days on end. I ended up expunging these horrible dreams from occurring by taking a flamethrower to local florist shops at 2 AM.

This lore change seems superficially to be advantageous, but again, will creatures be able to reflect bolts back at the original caster? (I.E. me)

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 419
Author: ARIETTA
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:11 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>>Between steps 2 and 3, the target critter's Elemental Deflection activates. Does my bolt spell reflect back at me before I switch back to guarded stance? If so, then if my bolt AS reduced by 20 is higher than my offensive stance DS, then I will automatically be hit.>>>

>>Ah. Yes... It is, in fact, quicker than stance dancing. You would hit yourself from an offensive stance, in this case.>>>

I think that is awesome.  :)

>>Remember back when Simu would talk a lot about how they wanted to encourage group hunting? This is how you don't do it.>>>

Um, this is not a correct statement. Consider two scenarios.

Scenario 1.

YoungBard hunts with OldWizard. NastyCritter attacks YoungBard with BigBolt. YoungBard dies. The end.

Scenario 2.

YoungBard hunts with OldWizard. NastyCritter attacks OldWizard with BigBolt. OldWizard deflects BigBolt with 507. BigBolt hits YoungBard, but at -20 AS. YoungBard lives. YoungBard praises OldWizard. The end.

~ GtG

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 420
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:11 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>> - I promise that there is not, in fact, additional code in this that causes the bolts to seek out and destroy your hunting partners. I just double checked.

Can you add it? 100 EMC and now you can choose (only among group members) who gets targeted....


It's actually less silly than you might think if you have a tanker, but my comment is almost 100% joke...


Overall I like it. YES, your friends could get hit, but they could have taken the hit in the first place, and with the -20 it helps. In fact if you're hunting with a warder it's awesome because they're not very bolt vulnerable (assuming like levels obv).

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 421
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:12 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>I'm not going to promise anything here, nor am I going to go into the unnecessary details about why this worked out this way.

>For now I'll just tell you that I'm considering it, but am not going to give a time table on when this could be worked in.

>~ Konacon

We just wanna do this, but with 10 wizards.

http://i.imgur.com/i8O0J31.gif

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 422
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:13 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


Oh! One small serious thought.

Are escorts/children immune to the reflection? Please say that they are.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 423
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:13 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>> We just wanna do this, but with 10 wizards.

Another use for Cone of Elements!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 424
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:15 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>> YoungBard hunts with OldWizard. NastyCritter attacks OldWizard with BigBolt. OldWizard deflects BigBolt with 507. BigBolt hits YoungBard, but at -20 AS. YoungBard lives. YoungBard praises OldWizard. The end.

Young Bard can't get enough Air lore to really make a difference, takes 15 ranks of earth lore that he plans to train out of later, OldWizard imbeds 507.

If only we had ping-pong reflection!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 425
Author: GOLDENOAK2
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:16 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


The first time a low level wizard kills a capped one with a reflected bolt there are going to be serious issues with this change.

Its kind of like the time that 18th level sorcerer killed a 60+ level spell caster rogue in the tree house with evil eye because it used the targets CS vs Casters TD back in the day. Think that spell got fixed within about a day after that.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 426
Author: SPYRIDONM1
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:16 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>Had you already beat it up a bit?

These are GY wraiths and no it wasn't softened up.

>s [Minion Quarters] You now see what has caused the fog. Water bleeds from the upper part of the stone wall in a small trickle here. When it strikes the hotter stone of the floor the water heats, and evaporates into steam. As time cools it, the steam sinks to the low level of the caves to surround your ankles as fog. It almost has a life of its own as it moves around you. You also see a wraith. Obvious exits: north, south > A wraith claws at you! 

 AS: +137 vs DS: +223 with AvD: +37 + d100 roll: +6 = -43
  A clean miss.

A wraith tries to ensnare you! 

 AS: +137 vs DS: +223 with AvD: +30 + d100 roll: +47 = -9
  A clean miss.

Actually, some will have an even lower AS

A wraith hurls a powerful lightning bolt at you! 

 AS: +127 vs DS: +272 with AvD: +39 + d100 roll: +37 = -69
  A clean miss.

These wraiths are wizard fodder since they have cloth coverage.

>You channel at a wraith. You hurl a seething blast of steam at a wraith! 

 AS: +191 vs DS: +75 with AvD: +70 + d100 roll: +3 = +189
  ... and hit for 93 points of damage!
  Your attack whistles right through the wraith's face.
  Dimples!

Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. Roundtime: 3 sec.

Mark

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 427
Author: ARIETTA
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:17 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>>Are escorts/children immune to the reflection? Please say that they are.>>>

I don't actually see why they would be. The critter could have easily cast directly at the child. If you're getting bolted while escorting a child, you're already doing it wrong. But even if you do, and the bolt is reflected, at least it's getting -20 AS. From an IC standpoint, the bolt is being wildly deflected out of control. Any target in the room should be fair game.

~ GtG

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 428
Author: GOAT
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:17 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>> Can a reflected bolt be reflected?

>Not at this time. Sorry!

Awwwww you left out the best part!

Cool change, though.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 429
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:18 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>> I don't actually see why they would be. The critter could have easily cast directly at the child. If you're getting bolted while escorting a child, you're already doing it wrong. But even if you do, and the bolt is reflected, at least it's getting -20 AS. From an IC standpoint, the bolt is being wildly deflected out of control. Any target in the room should be fair game.

I was under the impression that children at least didn't get engaged if there was any viable other target in the room. I haven't done enough escorts to know.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 430
Author: COSTELLOK
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:18 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


If you're a capped Wizard bolting low level players at full strength, I don't have too much sympathy for what happens.


Fyonn's player

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 431
Author: ARIETTA
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:19 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>>The first time a low level wizard kills a capped one with a reflected bolt there are going to be serious issues with this change.>>>

What's the capped wizard casting at a low level wizard for, anyway? Sounds like poetic justice, to me.

~ GtG

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 432
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:20 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>> The first time a low level wizard kills a capped one with a reflected bolt there are going to be serious issues with this change.

I for one, welcome our new low level wizard overlords. :p

While I don't care personally if it works that way I suppose you could start reducing the reflective chance for > 15 levels difference or something.

-- Robert

"All wizards are beginners; some of us have just been beginning longer!"

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 433
Author: ARIETTA
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:21 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>>I was under the impression that children at least didn't get engaged if there was any viable other target in the room. I haven't done enough escorts to know.>>>

Nope. Critters can target kids at any time. Sucks when it happens, too. But that's why you don't stick around!

~ GtG

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 434
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:23 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>> Nope. Critters can target kids at any time. Sucks when it happens, too. But that's why you don't stick around!

Bah...

Ok, I'd like to request that as an enhancement if possible. Escort dying to a reflected bolt isn't fun. Singing a friends hair with TWO pieces of back luck (reflection and a high reroll) can be a laugh.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 435
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:24 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


That gives capped creatures an 8% chance of throwing your own bolt at you -20 AS.

Can some runestaff wielding wizards please share their Offensive bolt AS and DS?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 436
Author: GOLDENOAK2
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:25 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>While I don't care personally if it works that way I suppose you could start reducing the reflective chance for > 15 levels difference or something.

That's all I am suggesting. I don't think wizards run around bolting each other or anything...I just think there is a potential for some weird imbalances of power, when an extremely low level player can start bouncing bolts from invasion creatures and players way above them. And while everyone is saying they don't care now...when superwiz dies from bolting babykin the moron, people will almost certainly raise a fuss.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 437
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:26 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>Nope. Critters can target kids at any time. Sucks when it happens, too. But that's why you don't stick around!

Jared leaps from hiding to attack!

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 439
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:34 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>That gives capped creatures an 8% chance of throwing your own bolt at you -20 AS.

>Can some runestaff wielding wizards please share their Offensive bolt AS and DS?

471 self cast, Voln Half-Elf, no enhancives.

Decked out in enhancives, you can easily reach 550. Upwards of 600+ or so with more toys.

One thing I wouldn't mind seeing added though, even though it won't affect me because FIRE4LYFE, is giving earth mages an option still use 507 without the reflect feature, as I'm sure there will be some situations, though probably rare, where a reflection at an inopportune time could be disastrous, like during escort bounties.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 440
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:36 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>> One thing I wouldn't mind seeing added though, even though it won't affect me because FIRE4LYFE, is giving earth mages an option still use 507 without the reflect feature, as I'm sure there will be some situations, though probably rare, where a reflection at an inopportune time could be disastrous, like during escort bounties.

Is an option for the proposed evoke system, although that would make imbedded never cast the reflective version.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 441
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:38 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>Is an option for the proposed evoke system, although that would make imbedded never cast the reflective version.

How many wizards are really gonna be using earth lore in the first place? Besides zero.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 442
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:40 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>> How many wizards are really gonna be using earth lore in the first place? Besides zero.

With the 419 buffs and other stuff that's been coming up... I've been thinking about it. Probably not a significant amount, but 25 or so ranks. Getting to a 15% reflection at such low lores is really good. I actually wish MORE of our spells had these "Entry level" lore requirements (which I think Empath/Cleric/Paladin Spirit magics have). There's always been the argument about seeds benefiting low levels, but reasonable entries for the first half of the effect is even better.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 443
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:43 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>How many wizards are really gonna be using earth lore in the first place? Besides zero. ~ Methais

THROGG

End of List.


Seriously though, having creatures reflect bolts back could be a pretty big problem for bolting wizards. Not sure how many critters wear 507 but that could really suck. E/P/B is bad enough, stacking more similar effects when the player is burning mana per cast is kinda crappy. CS casting is looking better by the day.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 444
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:44 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


Non-wizards are going to need 45 ranks of Earth lore to get the base 5%. That's quite an investment, but not outside the realm of possibility.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 445
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:47 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>> Non-wizards are going to need 45 ranks of Earth lore to get the base 5%. That's quite an investment, but not outside the realm of possibility.

A sorc for example would have many reasons to go this route, with the 419 changes. Yeah, probably a post-cap goal (although the 15 pre-cap might squeeze into some plans) but definitely an attainable boost. And yes, I'm assuming that 507 is an easy access spell, but any embeddable < 10 is easy access in my book.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 446
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:48 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


Also, where do you get 45 for the base 5%? I didn't see a penalty for it being outside.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 447
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:49 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


Ithzir Adepts wear the spell (i'm pretty sure) and they are level 96. They'll probably reflect at the full 8% chance.

I'm not sure about the Scatter, Nelemar, and Confluence.

You can bet one of the Grimswarm will be wearing the spell, and may even hit 9% if they get enough levels.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 448
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:49 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>> Seriously though, having creatures reflect bolts back could be a pretty big problem for bolting wizards.

While I don't know the answer to this, how many creatures do you think run around with 507 up all the time anyway? If you are in a hunting area where this happens then dispel them, CS them, or hunt something different.

Or maybe if we get the re-reflect option then just up your game and reflect it back in their face when they try and reflect it at you!

Now if it turns out that 25+% of the critters in the game do cast this then I may have a different opinion.

I'd rather have this ability (understanding that critters get it too) than not have it.

-- Robert

"All wizards are beginners; some of us have just been beginning longer!"

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 449
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:51 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>Also, where do you get 45 for the base 5%? I didn't see a penalty for it being outside.

You're right. It should be a 1/2 rank penalty as it is a Major circle, not a profession circle. That makes it 30 ranks and not 45.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 450
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:51 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


Another option is to cast the spell that makes you immune to magic below a certain level (1700 circle, forgot the name) and bolt away, laughing maniacally any time one of your bolts reflects and fizzles harmlessly against your shield. Not for everyone but the thought amused me enough that I wanted to add it to my list of options.

-- Robert

"All wizards are beginners; some of us have just been beginning longer!"

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 451
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:54 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>Another option is to cast the spell that makes you immune to magic below a certain level (1700 circle, forgot the name) and bolt away, laughing maniacally any time one of your bolts reflects and fizzles harmlessly against your shield. Not for everyone but the thought amused me enough that I wanted to add it to my list of options. -- Robert

You're definitely going to want to come up with some strategies, as it will happen and you don't want to get caught in offensive against your own bolt.

It'd be a good idea to start assembling a list of creatures over level 30 who wear 507.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 452
Author: DRAFIX
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:56 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


571 AS voln.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 453
Author: TANDL
Date: on 09/03/2015 11:58 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


Arcane Barrier (1720).

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 454
Author: ARIETTA
Date: on 09/03/2015 12:02 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


It seems like Elemental Disjunction (530) might be a good opening gambit against criters known to wear 507. I also like Robert's idea of using Arcane Barrier (1720) for this purpose.

~ GtG

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 455
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/03/2015 12:04 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


Is 100% uptime for 1720 a viable option for wizards? I think sorcerers can manage it with scroll infusion, but Charge Item is a bit tougher for a variety of reasons. How are those prisms to recharge?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 456
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 09/03/2015 12:24 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


"How many wizards are really gonna be using earth lore in the first place? Besides zero." -- Methais

It's actually got a pretty nice stack of bennies building, and even juicier if I can convince them to step all of the "Seed>3" down by about two or three (so "Seed9" becoming "Seed6or7", and suchlike).

I logged in my Enchanter to run the 'goals' page and then log the character back out again, just to <tinker with silly stuff> and see what sorts of things might be doable. One version had him with 24 ranks of Air & 78 ranks of Earth (he's about 5k from making 50th level).

Ranks Spell Benefit
Theoretical Benefits First
77 *0506 *Haste, -59s reduced cooldown [net == 61s of cooldown]
20 *0518 *Cone of Elements, force element of choice @ 20 ranks
50 *0909 *Tremors, self-cast gets +1 charge [07 charges total]
60 *0909 *Tremors, if target knocked down, +1% penalty to E/B/P [09% penalty total]
Actual Known Benefits
65 0414 Elemental Defense III, +1% chance deflect AS/DS attack [07% chance total]
75 0507 Elemental Deflection, +1% chance to reflect [11% chance total]
72 0509 Strength, melee AS +1 [+09 total]
70 0510 Hurl Boulder DF at +0.070 [+0.070 total]
69 0520 Stone Skin, reactive flare IF HIT, 1% chance [06% chance total]
68 0905 Prismatic Guard, +1 DS [+08 DS total]
78 0917 Boil Earth, guaranteed 2nd strike, 78% chance 3rd strike
(102) 0710 (imbedded/enscrolled) Energy Maelstrom, -1second to formation speed per step, +1 step [-05s total]

Eventually, over the course of a hunt, or a night, or a week, or a month, enough '6-10% chances' are going to happen to start seeing some fairly decent payoff. It's still not going to be anything really reliable (until they buy in on cranking down the Seed# a little) but it's gonna be starting to get there. 

 (I mean, it has to start seeing something.  We all know how likely it is to see that 8% [or 4% or 2%] chance of armor failure, amiright?!?!)

Someone with a 2- or 3-slot Fusion weapon and a couple of nice-sized EL:Earth orbs to put into it is going to be rocking right along. Likewise with their armor. Picking up (literally) an extra 10-20 ranks just by arming your weapon is a nice little payoff.

12 Ranks
From Fusion Weapon
81 0905 Prismatic Guard, +1 DS [+09 DS total]
84 0520 Stone Skin, reactive flare IF HIT, 1% chance [07% chance total]
85 *0909 *Tremors, if target knocked down, +1% penalty to E/B/P [10% penalty total]
85 0414 Elemental Defense III, +1% chance deflect AS/DS attack [08% chance total]
85 0507 Elemental Deflection, +1% chance to reflect [12% chance total]
85 0509 Strength, melee AS +1 [+10 total]
90 *0909 *Tremors, self-cast gets +1 charge [08 charges total]
90 0510 Hurl Boulder DF at +0.090 [+0.090 total]



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 457
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 09/03/2015 12:29 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>Is 100% uptime for 1720 a viable option for wizards? I think sorcerers can manage it with scroll infusion, but Charge Item is a bit tougher for a variety of reasons. How are those prisms to recharge?

because a wizard couldn't bring its scrolls to a sorcerer?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 458
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/03/2015 12:34 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>> because a wizard couldn't bring its scrolls to a sorcerer?

I don't know why, but I couldn't help but think... "BUY MY BOOK!!" When I read this.

That is all. And FLEE!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 459
Author: ASPEN
Date: on 09/03/2015 12:36 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>>Is 100% uptime for 1720 a viable option for wizards? I think sorcerers can manage it with scroll infusion, but Charge Item is a bit tougher for a variety of reasons. How are those prisms to recharge?

FYI 1720 is the single hardest spell in game to infuse, and even max skill postcap people can fail on it. The scrolls are also very rare. I'm just about as the most aggressive outside spell wearing you'll find, I don't keep that one up, saved only for invasions.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 460
Author: DRUMPEL
Date: on 09/03/2015 12:36 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


How many wizards are really gonna be using earth lore in the first place? Besides zero.
~ Methais

My wizard, strictly Earth Lore. 124 ranks. He's about 1.54x trained in elemental lores.

So far, here are the benefits to my 124 ranks (224 Skill) for Earth Lore bonuses on known spells:

Spell Benefit(s)
414 9% chance to deflect physical AS/DS attack
905 extra +11 to DS
909 +11% reduction to EBP & 8 self cast charges stored
917 success of second target = 124%, success of third target = 24%
507 +15% to reflect a bolt attack
509 +12 extra AS to swinging a weapon (doesn't help my wizard, he doesn't swing a weapon)
510 extra +.076 to DF (nothing hits harder!)
518 Multiple targets with 510....everyone's getting a boulder for Christmas!
520 9% to have reactive vibe flare

I'm sure there's a spell or two I may have missed or I'm remembering the bonuses to incorrectly. I did not include HASTE (506) since it appears they're still looking this one over.

While a few spells are rather, lackluster, with the lore benefit added on (I'm looking at you Stone Skin), when you start to pile them all in one spot to look at, it's kind of nice to see the bonuses stack up.

I'm still waiting to see if/when they add in any awesome, jaw-dropping abilities to those that max a single lore.

-Drumpel

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 461
Author: RROY
Date: on 09/03/2015 12:40 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


Awe yea Konacon is a master strategist, he saw that there was very little data or need for strategy info on the Wiki, this alone might be of interest to know, maybe we will get a flood of guides on each critter as the writers get awake and hear the news that they asre sorely needed.


Just an elf about town...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 462
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/03/2015 12:41 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>because a wizard couldn't bring its scrolls to a sorcerer?

Most people don't consider being reliant upon another class being a good thing, especially if that is due to an improvement to one of their own spells.

But yeah, sure, we appreciate your business and all that.



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 463
Author: ASPEN
Date: on 09/03/2015 12:43 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>So far I don't see how potentially reflecting the bolt (with -20 AS) at your partner makes hunting more dangerous for them. I'm listening, but I need more than this to be convinced that this is actually detrimental to your group.

The danger is a critter reflecting it.

I'm sure I don't need to tell you that because defense and offensive skills progress at different rates you end up with situations at cap where pretty much any profession's offense is good enough to break any professions defense. Your "duels" are always won by the person who attacks first.

Or, to say it another way, a bolt from a level 100 player is different than a bolt from a level 100 critter. The most dangerous thing you'll experience hunting will be not an attack from a critter, but a reflected bolt, that seems wrong.

There isn't much danger from you reflecting a bolt cast by a critter, because if the person can't defend against critters why are they hunting there? The danger is a critter reflecting a bolt from a player, since player offenses trend higher than critter offenses.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 464
Author: TANDL
Date: on 09/03/2015 12:44 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


Aspen, is it harder than 1750? Or is there some restriction on gift that I am not aware of? I'm just curious.

Tal.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 465
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 09/03/2015 12:45 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


"917 success of second target = 124%, success of third target = 24% " -- Drumpel

I'm pretty sure you're guaranteed a 3rd target, at 124 ranks/224 skill.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 466
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/03/2015 12:47 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>Aspen, is it harder than 1750? Or is there some restriction on gift that I am not aware of? I'm just curious. - Tal.

Not to steal V's thunder, but you can't infuse 1750. There is no runestone which can unlock spells above 25, and realistically no one has access to runestones which can unlock spells above level 20.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 467
Author: ASPEN
Date: on 09/03/2015 12:48 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>Aspen, is it harder than 1750? Or is there some restriction on gift that I am not aware of? I'm just curious.


1750 is not infusable. Nothing over level 25 is technically, and nothing over level 20 is in practice since no spell over level 20 appears on scrolls because nonarcane spells don't and because 1725 doesn't exist. When 1725 is released it will be the hardest.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 468
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 09/03/2015 12:54 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


btw 1720 is also tough for sorcerers to infuse in case you're thinking we have it easy. I still lock them with 252 AS ranks

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 469
Author: ARIETTA
Date: on 09/03/2015 12:56 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>>The danger is a critter reflecting it.>>>

Yes. And I find that rather exciting.  :)

Added complexity and danger to hunting = win. The fact that it's your own attack that could do you in is simply delicious. This will necessitate some extra care with creatures known to wear 507. Spells like Elemental Dispel (417) and Elemental Disjunction (530) may find new application. A bard's Song of Unravelling (1013) would be perfect for this purpose. CS spells may be more attractive against such creatures. I think it's very intriguing!

Hmm. Just a thought, is it possible to see what spells a creature is wearing with Elemental Detection (405)? If not...could it be?

~ GtG

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 470
Author: DRUMPEL
Date: on 09/03/2015 12:57 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


I just realized my math is off for Boil Earth, it should be:

Spell Benefit(s)
917 success of second target = 100%, success of third target = 100%, success of fourth target??? = 24%???

Is there a chance to hit a 4th target? If the math keeps going: 1st target = Initial Cast 2nd target = Skill level of Earth Lore 3rd target = Skill - 100 ?4th target = Skill - 200 ??

-Drumpel

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 471
Author: ASPEN
Date: on 09/03/2015 01:03 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>Added complexity and danger to hunting = win. The fact that it's your own attack that could do you in is simply delicious. This will necessitate some extra care with creatures known to wear 507. Spells like Elemental Dispel (417) and Elemental Disjunction (530) may find new application. A bard's Song of Unravelling (1013) would be perfect for this purpose. CS spells may be more attractive against such creatures. I think it's very intriguing!

Certain invasion critters are impossible to hit with CS, if they wear 507 this'll make it highly unlikely for them to be doable by pures at all, we'll sit on the sidelines and wait for the squares to save us.

I wonder if justice mechanics will be smart with these as well. Sometimes they forget to turn justice off in an invasion.

I do wonder as well, if the chance to reflect a nonelemental bolt is the same as an elemental bolt.

In the end its just poor design IMO to give critters this because critter AS and Ds progress at a different rate from player, and that adds up to some large discrepancies by end game. This is a growing pains type problem.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 472
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/03/2015 01:08 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


I just think it's funny that the change might actually be net negative. It's not like wizards were in danger of bolts anyway.

Nailing anything specific with elemdispel is hard and it's also pretty mana intensive. If that's deemed necessary, and I'm not saying that it is, that would still be a pretty big hunting nerf to those specific creatures.

I hardly bolt much anyway, so I don't much care, but it's amusing.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 473
Author: BLACKKOBOLD
Date: on 09/03/2015 01:10 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


551, 564 vs. undead, 576/589 with ensorcel flare, 581/594 with acuity flare, 606/619 with acuity and ensorcel flare.

I'm sure it wasn't intended, but this is one of those abilities that is potentially a lot more useful to monsters than it is to players. Given the number of bolts we need to cast, any monster that has this ability is going to become a wizard killer. I don't think that's intended.

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 474
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/03/2015 01:12 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


Is there any possibility that a 1 second delay could be added to the spell reflection? It would solve the problem of this change resulting in a penalty to bolting wizards.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 475
Author: ARIETTA
Date: on 09/03/2015 01:16 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>>Certain invasion critters are impossible to hit with CS, if they wear 507 this'll make it highly unlikely for them to be doable by pures at all, we'll sit on the sidelines and wait for the squares to save us.>>>

Concerned GMs can strip it off invasion critters, the same way they turn off disarming. Evil GMs can leave it on for added chaos and destruction. Either way it's a win. :)

>>In the end its just poor design IMO to give critters this because critter AS and Ds progress at a different rate from player, and that adds up to some large discrepancies by end game. This is a growing pains type problem.>>>

I don't think it's poor design, necessarily, but I'd agree with the "growing pains" remark. Our characters should have the means of dealing with the added danger, however, and certainly the players should be clever enough to adapt.  ;)

~ GtG

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 476
Author: BLACKKOBOLD
Date: on 09/03/2015 01:16 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


I'm pretty sure liches have it, and they don't need this. At all.

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 477
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/03/2015 01:18 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


> Is there any possibility that a 1 second delay could be added to the spell reflection? It would solve the problem of this change resulting in a penalty to bolting wizards.

It is extremely unlikely that this particular change would be made. It's not a bad suggestion, and I see where you're going with it, but I don't think this is the way to do it.

> Critter concerns.

I'm curious about people's thoughts about this. So view this merely as my own curiosity for your thoughts on this, not any indication as to whether or not anything will change.

If it were 1% max for critters would that still be viewed as unacceptable to you? If not, what percentage range would you think would be fair for critters to have on this ability vs players?

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 478
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/03/2015 01:19 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


Heh, this change could take care of the Rapid Shock build single-handedly.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 479
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 09/03/2015 01:24 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


A capped critter would know 50 ranks of EL:Earth, right? 45 ranks is 15 + 10 +10 +10 == base plus 3 steps of bonus == 8% chance of bouncing a bolt spell back. Roughly, one time in twelve.

I might suggest--for the critter-version ONLY--changing it to 1% per quartile of the game? 

 (25th level == 1%, 50th level == 2%, 75th level == 3%, 100th level == 4%)

Simply put, even a creature that uses bolt spells, typically gets so few of them cast at the characters, that it's not really all that big a deal for the PC defense.

But creatures get so many bolt spells cast at them that it makes their reflection of the characters' spells, the real danger.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 480
Author: THROGG
Date: on 09/03/2015 01:26 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


Am I missing something here? Aren't most bolting wizards using runestaves ... which are capable of blocking bolt attacks? Even my warmage carries a runestaff for those occasions when a bolt casting foe might appear (mauls suck at parrying bolt attacks).

Wouldn't the course of events be:

Bolt is cast by your comrade at a critter wearing 507 Bolt is reflected at you Bolt is parried by your runestaff

Or are you saying that bolts reflected by this new property of 507 bypass runestaff defense?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 481
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/03/2015 01:31 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


E/B/P suffers the higher stance you're in, so wizards facing their own bolts in offensive won't be able to rely much on that defense. It helps, certainly, but it's not a lock. Especially not in offensive.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 482
Author: BLACKKOBOLD
Date: on 09/03/2015 01:32 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


Yeah, I'm sorry. I just don't get it. Speaking for myself, I don't get hit by bolts to begin with. Spiritual warding spells, CMANs, maneuver rolls. These things cause me problems. So while this is ostensibly a benefit, it is actually no benefit to my character at all and in fact presents a new danger that is extremely costly to mitigate. If liches wear 507 (and I'm pretty sure they do), they wear it along with a slew of other spells. And 530 will only remove 2 spells at a time from them due to the level difference. I can't fire off bolts at anything that has this spell because it's basically an 8% chance to kill myself.

I wish you'd think these things through. This impacts some players a lot more than others.

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 483
Author: ZHOUY1
Date: on 09/03/2015 01:33 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>If it were 1% max for critters would that still be viewed as unacceptable to you? If not, what percentage range would you think would be fair for critters to have on this ability vs players?

0% and I really think anyone believing otherwise has not thought this through. Game design tends to frown on things like, "Roll d100: If you roll a 1 then you die," because there's no element of skill or knowledge involved. It is also unfairly punishing to warmages because of their lower bolt DS. (Yes of course you can spend possibly 90 mana or so making sure 507 is dispelled before you start bolting, but it would be supremely non-fun to approach regular creatures like an invasion demon.)

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 484
Author: SOURCE
Date: on 09/03/2015 01:35 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


Creatures that use this spell might actually be killable using means that isn't a bolt. Maybe it'd be worth it to try a dispel. Or some manner of CS spell.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 485
Author: RISHIB1
Date: on 09/03/2015 01:39 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


Hmm. How does the reflection work with Empathic Assault? If creature reflects my own bolt and I get hit, do the warding cycles use my own CS against me? That could really hurt.

Rishi - Player of Kembal


Speaking to Plur, Belnia says, "You're no Kembal."


[Roll result: -2112 (open d100: 82)] A giantman thief crouches and sweeps a leg at you, but only manages to trip himself.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 486
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/03/2015 01:39 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


Gah.. I hate to have to agree and turn what at first seemed like a cool buff into a mixed bag, or even an overall nerf, but yeah, knowing critters can have this will end up really tanking the experience, especially since it only hurts Bolters.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 487
Author: TANDL
Date: on 09/03/2015 01:41 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>critter concerns

I find the whole thing... interesting? I think that is the best way to put it.

If the Dev team is willing to go through and make sure that the level ranges that are bottle-necked for creatures don't have wizards facing this without adequate alternatives I can live with it as is.

Set up currently it seems like it just adds a subset of creatures that wizards are going to inherently avoid fighting if they only bolt. Kinda like CS casters and things with abnormally high TD, or THW users and things that bolt.

Tal.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 488
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 09/03/2015 01:43 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


Just restrict the reflected bolt to hitting other critters or dispelling into the ground when player cast on a critter.

-- Robert

"All wizards are beginners; some of us have just been beginning longer!"

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 489
Author: KARDIOS
Date: on 09/03/2015 01:47 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>> If it were 1% max for critters would that still be viewed as unacceptable to you? If not, what percentage range would you think would be fair for critters to have on this ability vs players? >> ~ Konacon

I think it should depend on how many critters cast the spell. I initially assumed that most critters that cast Wizard spells also cast Elemental Deflection, but that is apparently not the case. If there are only a very few critters, then leave it the way it is and, if necessary and if possible, adjust the earth lore of those critters. If there are a great many critters that cast Elemental Deflection, then it will be a big problem for bolt casters.

For what it is worth, I believe every critter in the Confluence casts it. It doesn't seem appropriate that most of the elementals in the Confluence would have skill in earth lore. Some of them should be 2x and most of them should be 0x.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 490
Author: SQK
Date: on 09/03/2015 01:55 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


> Um, this is not a correct statement. Consider two scenarios. > Scenario 1. > YoungBard hunts with OldWizard. NastyCritter attacks YoungBard with BigBolt. YoungBard dies. The end. > Scenario 2. > YoungBard hunts with OldWizard. NastyCritter attacks OldWizard with BigBolt. OldWizard deflects BigBolt with 507. BigBolt hits YoungBard, but at -20 AS. YoungBard lives. YoungBard praises OldWizard. The end.

You missed scenario 3, attacks OldWizard with BigBolt. OldWizard deflects BigBolt with 507. BigBolt hits YoungBard, but at -20 AS. YoungBard dies. YoungBard curses OldWizard because if it wasn't reflected, it wouldn't have been a concern.

Ditto for the scenario of escorts. As a capped wizard, I find anything I'm escorting seldom has the equivalent DS as I do. If I have 507 up and qualify for the reflection, it increases the odds of those escorts being hit.

This change is only a positive when I'm hunting solo and encourages me to do so more often. (With the caveat that I typically do anyhow, so it isn't such a big deal to me personally. I can see how folks who like to group would dislike it.)

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 491
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 09/03/2015 01:57 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


Or gen critters with 2707/Elemental Derfrection, which comes with the same DS benefit but without the Lore tie-in. It exists only on the critter-only list.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 492
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/03/2015 02:00 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


Yeah I thought this was a pretty awesome change until I realized critters get the lore benefit of the spell as well. I had no idea critters had any lore at all, much less .5x in every lore.

True there are probably only a handful of critters that even use 507, but I'm sure there will be more in the future. But for now the critters that do cast 507 are pretty much off limits for anyone who bolts, and the profession that bolts the most are wizards.

I see people saying "LOL! It's not a nerf, just dispel 507 off the critter!"

Okay. Great. A wizard's options for dispelling are a single dispel, 417, and a mass dispel, 530. Assuming you were some sort of wizarding God and could always dispel 507 off the critter on the first try with 417 that's still 17 mana you have to waste on every critter whereas before you didn't have to. How is 17+ mana per critter not a waste?

Even if you had enough bolt DS to protect yourself against your own bolts (unlikely) one out of every 8 bolts (on average) isn't going to hit the critter because of this change, that adds up to mana lost as well whereas before this mana loss didn't exist.

The real ironic part is for wizards who don't plan on training in earth lore they will never see any personal benefit from this change, yet they very well might go up against a critter someday that has benefited from it. For said wizards this is a 100% nerf.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 493
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/03/2015 02:04 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>Even if you had enough bolt DS to protect yourself against your own bolts (unlikely) one out of every 8 bolts (on average) isn't going to hit the critter because of this change, that adds up to mana lost as well whereas before this mana loss didn't exist.

My bad, that should be one out of every 12 bolts for a capped critter. But still. You get my point.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 494
Author: TANDL
Date: on 09/03/2015 02:10 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


If this is going to be left for creatures could it be considered to let 502 disable the reflection (and vibe flares from stone stone)? If not 502 than something else? Having a way around it that isn't 30+ mana spent to dispel it would be welcome.

Tal.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 495
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 09/03/2015 02:12 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


TGO01
Assuming you were some sort of wizarding God and could always dispel 507 off the critter on the first try with 417 that's still 17 mana you have to waste on every critter whereas before you didn't have to. How is 17+ mana per critter not a waste?

Not that I disagree with the point, but just as an FYI, Elemental Dispel's (417) mana cost is not static at 17. It's dependent upon the sphere and level of the spell removed, and your Elemental Mana Control ranks. For example, at 24 EMC ranks, 417 only takes 5 mana to remove 401, 7 mana to remove 406, 8 mana to remove 507. Out of sphere is higher, but 417 always targets elemental spells first (and vice versa for 119).

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 496
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/03/2015 02:18 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>It's dependent upon the sphere and level of the spell removed, and your Elemental Mana Control ranks. For example, at 24 EMC ranks, 417 only takes 5 mana to remove 401, 7 mana to remove 406, 8 mana to remove 507.

I never knew that.

Has this information been kept a tight secret though because I went to the Wiki after reading your post to see if this information was up there and all it says is:

>Will cause a spell that is current cast on the target to be dispelled (i.e. if the target had Elemental Defense I cast on it then Elemental Defense I would be removed). The mana cost for removing a spell is reduced by one (1) mana per seventy-five (75) skill bonus in the Elemental Mana Control skill.

Doesn't say anything about lower level spells being cheaper.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 497
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 09/03/2015 02:23 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


TGO01
Has this information been kept a tight secret though because I went to the Wiki after reading your post to see if this information was up there and all it says is:
>Will cause a spell that is current cast on the target to be dispelled (i.e. if the target had Elemental Defense I cast on it then Elemental Defense I would be removed). The mana cost for removing a spell is reduced by one (1) mana per seventy-five (75) skill bonus in the Elemental Mana Control skill.
Doesn't say anything about lower level spells being cheaper.

Our Scribes have failed us for the last time!...

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 498
Author: ERYKK2
Date: on 09/03/2015 02:25 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


> Is there any possibility that a 1 second delay could be added to the spell reflection? It would solve the problem of this change resulting in a penalty to bolting wizards.
It is extremely unlikely that this particular change would be made. It's not a bad suggestion, and I see where you're going with it, but I don't think this is the way to do it.
> Critter concerns.
I'm curious about people's thoughts about this. So view this merely as my own curiosity for your thoughts on this, not any indication as to whether or not anything will change.
If it were 1% max for critters would that still be viewed as unacceptable to you? If not, what percentage range would you think would be fair for critters to have on this ability vs players?
~ Konacon


Why do creatures need this ability? How about you explain that to us, before we explain to you what range they should be allowed to produce? You've basically given us a benefit, that to many, is a nerf.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 499
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/03/2015 02:46 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


> Why do creatures need this ability? How about you explain that to us, before we explain to you what range they should be allowed to produce?

First off, I really wish you would stop being so aggressive in your posting style. All I did was ask a question and your response is to jump in my face and make demands of me. I don't really appreciate it.

There was a 'second' part to this post, but I'll keep that separate because it isn't really related.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 500
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/03/2015 02:47 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


> Critter Concerns

You guys are right. E/B/P is a major concern for bolts (Wizards) in general, and that's bad enough alone without a chance for another percentage chance of killing yourself on top of it.

The 507 Earth Lore Reflection benefit is now player only.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 501
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/03/2015 02:49 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>The 507 Earth Lore Reflection benefit is now player only.

Thank goodness. Maybe Operation Rock Shower won't have to happen after all...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 502
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 09/03/2015 02:50 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


TGO01
Thank goodness. Maybe Operation Rock Shower won't have to happen after all...

Consider it fortunate for those that would have been involved.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 503
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/03/2015 02:52 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


Thanks a lot for the consideration, Konacon & Co.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 504
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/03/2015 03:01 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


I think that's a good call. Hey, I mentioned the E/P/B first thing in my post, do I get credit? :D

Reflection abilities in general are a pretty bad thing to put on critters considering we need to kill hundreds of the buggers for each level.

I appreciate you guys again showing you are working with the community to find workable solutions.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 505
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 09/03/2015 03:02 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>First off, I really wish you would stop being so aggressive in your posting style. All I did was ask a question and your response is to jump in my face and make demands of me. I don't really appreciate it.

Maybe Estild can organize group therapy-con when the lore review is over.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 506
Author: ARIETTA
Date: on 09/03/2015 03:05 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>>The 507 Earth Lore Reflection benefit is now player only.>>>

Awww. Well, I understand the concerns, but I still think it sounded fun. Oh well. :)

~ GtG

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 507
Author: ERYKK2
Date: on 09/03/2015 03:07 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


> Why do creatures need this ability? How about you explain that to us, before we explain to you what range they should be allowed to produce?
First off, I really wish you would stop being so aggressive in your posting style. All I did was ask a question and your response is to jump in my face and make demands of me. I don't really appreciate it.
There was a 'second' part to this post, but I'll keep that separate because it isn't really related.
~ Konacon

Sorry, my intention wasn't to rip your head off. Re-reading it, I guess it does come off pretty aggressive!

You guys are right. E/B/P is a major concern for bolts (Wizards) in general, and that's bad enough alone without a chance for another percentage chance of killing yourself on top of it.
The 507 Earth Lore Reflection benefit is now player only.
~ Konacon

I can assure you every Wizard appreciates this.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 508
Author: LORDKRIP
Date: on 09/03/2015 03:10 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>>- The reflected bolt does not consider hidden/invisible targets.<

Nobody does... =(


Peace cannot be kept by force; it can only be achieved by understanding. - Albert Einstein

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 509
Author: ARIETTA
Date: on 09/03/2015 03:11 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>>I can assure you every Wizard appreciates this.>>>

You most certainly do not speak for every wizard. Also, "wizard" is not a proper noun and is not capitalized.

~ GtG

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 510
Author: DRAFIX
Date: on 09/03/2015 03:13 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


Lol, you are funny :D

Our Scribes have failed us for the last time!...
GameMaster Estild


Firstly, Konacon, thank you for your hard work and great responses to this thread. Secondly I agree, no need to go all ape and fling poop ~ relax ... gooooosfrabrahhhh... it's just a game...

> Why do creatures need this ability? How about you explain that to us, before we explain to you what range they should be allowed to produce?
First off, I really wish you would stop being so aggressive in your posting style. All I did was ask a question and your response is to jump in my face and make demands of me. I don't really appreciate it.
There was a 'second' part to this post, but I'll keep that separate because it isn't really related.
~ Konacon



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 511
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/03/2015 03:13 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>Also, "wizard" is not a proper noun and is not capitalized.

Oh Yeah?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 512
Author: BLACKKOBOLD
Date: on 09/03/2015 03:29 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


Thanks for the change. Now this is a fun addition without the major drawback. I appreciate it.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 513
Author: DEANSMITH
Date: on 09/03/2015 03:33 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>The 507 Earth Lore Reflection benefit is now player only.

Thank you for listening and responding to the concerns that were posted here!

Neat change for the spell.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 514
Author: DRUMPEL
Date: on 09/03/2015 03:40 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>>I can assure you every Wizard appreciates this.

It didn't bother me and my wizard.

Here's a good way to update the spell so wizards can negate a reflected bolt:

Just make it that any wizard that's not running Haste when a bolt is reflected back at them, they'll get struck by it. Then make sure Haste can only be cast 1x a day. Then you can let us know that there's a way to negate a reflected bolt, if we have Haste running!

Ha! You can do it, GMs! Make this change and laugh and laugh and laugh as you walk away from your keyboard. HAHAHAHA!

Sorry, my crazy meds wore off.

-Drumpel

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 515
Author: HJELTE
Date: on 09/03/2015 08:15 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


Late to the party... glad to see the deflection was specifically restricted to player-only.

Given the mechanics, it would have been an incredibly detrimental move against Warmages... which was counter-intuitive upon considering the removal of the reduction of Bolt AS of 513. That change would imply that you wanted warmages to bolt more. However, introducing a bolt reflection would be counter-intuitive!

THW and Ranged weapons produce.. well.. pretty much 0 DS for Ranged from parry, whereas runestaff defense gets 50% of their (Base Value * stance) utilized in ranged parry DS... adding quite a decent amount!

~Whirlin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 516
Author: DAID
Date: on 09/03/2015 09:27 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>Can a reflected bolt be reflected? Like if 10 wizards are all in the same room can one cast at another and watch as the bolt (possibly) bounces back and forth like a light show?

Hahahahaha.


Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog

>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 517
Author: LORDKRIP
Date: on 09/04/2015 02:02 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>Can a reflected bolt be reflected? Like if 10 wizards are all in the same room can one cast at another and watch as the bolt (possibly) bounces back and forth like a light show?

I imagine those points in the 3D Zelda games where you have to reflect the energy back and forth multiple times until it's going fast enough the boss misses.

This particular update leaves me with the impression there's some design space for a pure CMAN.

CMAN BOLTREFLECTION

When a runestaff-wielding character successfully parries a bolt attack with their runestaff, they may POINT RUNESTAFF AT (TARGET) to reflect the parried bolt at said target. This would need to be done within a certain time period (a second or two) after the bolt is parried, and the ranks of this CMAN give increased success to hitting the correct target and keeping the full strength of the original bolt the character is reflecting.


Peace cannot be kept by force; it can only be achieved by understanding. - Albert Einstein

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 518
Author: ARCHIGEEK
Date: on 09/04/2015 03:07 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


Does Icepatch provide a bonus when casting ewave? IE: if Icepatch has been cast, ewave may result in impact damage. Seems like a legit combo to me. Also, difficulty getting up after falling makes sense.

Kerl

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 519
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 09/04/2015 03:14 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


>> Does Icepatch provide a bonus when casting ewave? IE: if Icepatch has been cast, ewave may result in impact damage. Seems like a legit combo to me. Also, difficulty getting up after falling makes sense.

How do you propose to knock someone over when the lower half of their body is encased in ice? Or were they already knocked over when you cast 512?

-- Robert

"All wizards are beginners; some of us have just been beginning longer!"

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 520
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/04/2015 03:26 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


Regardless of if it makes sense or not (it doesn't) you can knockover critters who have been rooted by 512.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 521
Author: HJELTE
Date: on 09/04/2015 06:43 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


Warning: Math Ahead

The problem with 512 is that it's relatively low benefit for mana cost in it's current 12 mana cast, especially when to consider diminishing returns on damage values from higher level spells.

Lets take a closer look at the benefits of 903 versus 1709. We see that we will get anywhere from +5 to +15 AvD... that's nice. As well as a DF buff of anywhere from 50 to 100%.

For the sake of simplicity, lets go ahead and assume that Minor Cold's DFs were EXACTLY 100% ABOVE the DFs of 903. I'm just kind of making up numbers right here, but once critical tables are evaluated, that would likely result in a 120% increase effectiveness on the per-cast basis.

How many casts would it take to make the 12 mana more efficient than just spamming minor water on the critter? 12/3/1.2 = 3.33 casts. Because I've negated the new and improved direct damage aspect, I'll go ahead and say that negates about a third of a cast of minor water. So we're left at 3 casts, or 31 ranks of water lore.

That also assumes that something will live for 3 casts of Minor Cold. Cold is 50% impact, 50% Cold critical tables, which averages a 27.27% critical kill rate when rolling a T9 critical against an unaimed body part. The likelihood of no critical kill in the first two attacks ends up being 52.89%. So if you cast the spell, you are likely to benefit it from all 3 casts. That makes it look promising!

However, as we're evaluating critical death rates, we can also evaluate 903 directly. Under the previous example, we know it will be about even blood loss damage after about 21 mana, either being 512 + 3x903, or 7x 903.

Minor Water utilizes direct impact critical tables, which have an unaimed instant death crit at Tier 9 of 27.58%. I know people are going to bring up Time for my evaluation, so we'll do 6x casts. The likelihood of something being alive after 6 casts of 903, if you're incredibly advantageous on AS/DS, is 14.4%. But... what does this all mean.



Conclusion

If you're in an advantageous AS/DS versus a target, and you're likely to crit kill it to death, 512 will not assist you in your goals, and will be a waste of mana.

If your target has adequate DS, and will not likely result in a death crit, you would be better off opening with a 512, ONLY if you have AT LEAST 31 Ranks of Water Lore (I'd probably recommend 43), AND the target has enough HP so that it will not die before the 3rd/4th cast of 903. This also assumes that you have adequate CS to ward... because otherwise... definitely not worth it.

~Whirlin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 522
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/04/2015 07:09 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


>> Warning: Math Ahead

Hey Whirlin, how would your impression of the spell change if we asked for 512 to be reduced in mana cost for the single target version? Just curious if that might bump up the effectiveness enough. It makes sense from a balance perspective, since 410 is AoE, Knocks Down, and Gives RT, that a Single Target spell that doesn't knock or give RT might justifiably be cheaper.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 523
Author: BLACKKOBOLD
Date: on 09/04/2015 07:40 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


I'm not Whirlin, but I think the most relevant factor is the utility of the spell. It doesn't really matter how much or how little mana a spell costs if nobody is inclined to use it.

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 524
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/04/2015 08:15 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


I suggested we add a multitarget option for the spell and/or a TD pushdown for the single-cast version of the spell.

Other ideas could be a DS penalty to water/cold spells, in addition to turning Minor Water into Minor Cold.

Also, this seems a bit odd: 10 ranks of Elemental Lore, Water will allow one cast of 903-converted Minor Cold, increasing by 1 additional cast at 20, 31, 43, 56, 70, 85, 101, 118, 136, 155, 175, and 196 ranks.

Why have a cap at all? Why not allow Minor Water to Minor Cold casts for as long as the spell is in effect? You've already put in 1 cast's worth of time and 12 mana for a setup. Why have it run out when the spell is already capped by duration?

I would suggest having the cap be removed for single-target Ice Patch, and instead move the cap to the room when Ice Patch is cast at the area. You get Minor Water to Minor Ice X amount of times, giving the spell the ability to enhance a room in general, much like Web, Light/Dark, etc.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 525
Author: TANDL
Date: on 09/04/2015 08:53 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


Whirlin, I like your approach but it seems that you are not accounting for a third option... what about those who can't 100% hit death by crit thresholds for 903 but can more often using minor cold (by merit of the DF/ADV increases).

I realize that would be extremely time consuming to define metrics for where it would or would not be worthwhile... but it still feels like an impactful situation.

Tal.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 526
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/04/2015 08:54 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


Those people better hope they don't miss any of their casts of Minor Water, as they are finite as determined by lore.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 527
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 09/04/2015 08:59 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


OBSERVER
Other ideas could be a DS penalty to water/cold spells, in addition to turning Minor Water into Minor Cold.

This is actually already the case. Rooted targets get -50 AS to melee attacks, -25 AS to ranged attacks, and -25 DS. The only restriction is that it doesn't stack some some other status conditions.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 528
Author: TANDL
Date: on 09/04/2015 09:08 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


My point is most people aren't in a range where a D100 of 1 is going to be able to cause significant damage to a target.

Using random numbers... if a roll of 60 is the floor for 903 to be lethal, and a roll of 10 is the floor for minor cold, that would significantly impact the value that spending the time setting up for the cast would have as far as average kill time and mana spent goes.

There is value in looking at the extreme ends of possibilities for comparisons sake. But most people don't exist in said extremes.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 529
Author: HJELTE
Date: on 09/04/2015 09:15 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


Honestly, the modeling is a bitch with that many variables, that's why I remove them

I didn't save a lot of the math, but if you're not in crit-kill range, you need to get off AT LEAST 3 casts (The math was a bit iffy at 3... 4 is more likely, 5 is a safe bet on having a positive return) of minor water, being converted into minor cold, to make the spell have increasing mana efficiency gains. If the critter dies before the 3-4-5th cast, it was wasted mana.


~Whirlin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 530
Author: TANDL
Date: on 09/04/2015 09:30 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


Oh I get that, trust me. 100 roll results. 5 armor classes. Creature health that varies by hundreds. What to include for phantom weighting? What about the potential for padding on creatures? What about things without eyes? Etc. The fact a GM said they had thousands of entries to model the new immolate didn't surprise me.

I just have a hunch that increasing the crit-kill range is a component worth some value (of course no idea how much). Shame that so much of GS is flat out immune to ice.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 531
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/05/2015 08:29 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


This is actually already the case. Rooted targets get -50 AS to melee attacks, -25 AS to ranged attacks, and -25 DS. The only restriction is that it doesn't stack some some other status conditions.
GameMaster Estild 
The sad fact is that it's just too costly for the effect.  12 mana is asking a lot for a setup. Especially for a class that doesn't ward that great.  Especially for one creature.  All these factors compound into a spell that is more likely to waste a ton of your resources rather than really make a positive difference in combat results. (as Whirlin just showed)

TO ME, a 1 target warding that results in a small penalty to combat numbers belongs more in the 3-6 mana range, rather than 12. For 12 that creature should basically be marginalized. No attack, no casting, no action.


For comparison sake:

Blind (311) - Big stun and with WM > 20 a chance to put creature in kneeling position.

Interference (212) - 30 TD pushdown, otherwise pretty similar to our spell: lowers AS/DS. I never really see this cast, and I think it's basically the same reason 512 is never cast. A slight AS/DS debuff is not worth 12 mana. If you can't hit or defend a creature without this type of spell, you shouldn't be hunting it. And probably can't ward it reliably.

Bind (214) - Cannot move or take any actions. NOW we're talking. Still expensive, but at least you're getting something for your mana here. Once bound, a creature is pretty much screwed, to be destroyed at your leisure.

Tangle Weed (610) - Most comparable to the room-cast version of 512, but way better in every way. Doesn't require the victim to swing first. Cheaper. Actually does it's job of putting creatures on their butts. Also roots creatures who have been knocked prone. Also entangles creatures (giving them RT I think?).

Tremors (909) - Not the greatest spell, but still works much better than the room cast version of 512, though for less duration.

Unbalance (110) - A little expensive but I would say it's better. Does damage, RT and puts the creature prone. RT & prone are much better than rooted, generally speaking.

There are probably more but I'm getting bored of this. Conclusion: make 512 more bettah! Ideally, like 610 :D

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 532
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/05/2015 09:49 AM PDT
Subject: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


Hi everybody! (== MECHANICS == Section is down there and today's non-mechanical release note is just awful.)

I feel like THE WATERING is starting to die down, because this is not a water lore update. It's pretty sad, but what can you do... Other lores need love too, you know! Today you all get an earth update, because 503 is a defensive spell and this is a defensive update! So, you may have noticed that we've already started spreading some Earth Lore around the defensive spells, and I don't see any reason to stop now! We've added a chance to flat out block and a chance to reflect, so let's just add a chance for some bonus DS in there too. I know. This wasn't really shenanigans... I'm sorry! Still friends? No? Well I told you up above in the parentheses that it was just awful. What do you want from me? I'm all alone now, aren't I. Yep, just talking to myself. Good times. > Konacon hangs his head in shame.

MECHANICS

Thurfel's Ward now provides its caster a (Ranks in Elemental Lore, Earth, Seed 10) percent chance to gain +20 DS for a single attack.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 533
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/05/2015 09:57 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


The DS bonus, I like.


The Ranks seed 10? Booooo! Hiss!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 534
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 09/05/2015 10:59 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


>> Yep, just talking to myself. Good times.

We can still be friends Konacon. Just don't, you know, acknowledge it when others are around. :p

Soon we're going to be like a pinball machine with something flaring off every time a critter attacks us! Kind of fun really.

-- Robert

"All wizards are beginners; some of us have just been beginning longer!"

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 535
Author: THROGG
Date: on 09/05/2015 11:11 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


I won't say it's a bad change, but the seed is terrible. You think it should be seed 10, I think it should be seed 1. How about we compromise, and make it seed 5?

Also, what does "a single attack" mean? There's a chance on every swing at us for every creature; 10 creatures swing = 10 chances? Or, there's one chance when attacked by multiple creatures, applied against the first critter to swing at us? Once chance on the first swing of a critter's M-strike? Please define more clearly.

>>Soon we're going to be like a pinball machine with something flaring off every time a critter attacks us! Kind of fun really.<<

Except that the fun will come to an abrupt end when the first hit kills us.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 536
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/05/2015 11:19 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


> Also, what does "a single attack" mean? There's a chance on every swing at us for every creature; 10 creatures swing = 10 chances? Or, there's one chance when attacked by multiple creatures, applied against the first critter to swing at us? Once chance on the first swing of a critter's M-strike? Please define more clearly.

Every time an attack happens against you that uses AS/DS you have a chance to gain 20 DS for that attack. There is no cooldown or anything of that sort. If something M-Strikes you, each individual attack of that M-Strike will have its own separate chance and will only gain the 20 DS for that one part of the M-Strike.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 537
Author: ERYKK2
Date: on 09/05/2015 11:43 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


Thurfel's Ward now provides its caster a (Ranks in Elemental Lore, Earth, Seed 10) percent chance to gain +20 DS for a single attack.
~ Konacon

I noticed it uses the same Seed 10 as 107, but it provides 5 less "benefit" and it's also a minor sphere spell vs a major sphere spell.

I think we should either see a lower Seed value or a higher "benefit" to offset those differences. (My preference would be a lower Seed value.)

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 538
Author: AUDIOSERF
Date: on 09/05/2015 11:54 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


I noticed it uses the same Seed 10 as 107, but it provides 5 less "benefit" and it's also a minor sphere spell vs a major sphere spell.
I think we should either see a lower Seed value or a higher "benefit" to offset those differences. (My preference would be a lower Seed value.)

I agree with this analysis and suggestion.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 539
Author: RROY
Date: on 09/05/2015 12:13 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


I donno what I think about the seed one way or another, but it seems like a nice flare, like a proc from the WoW type games, BRAVO!

Just an elf about town...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 540
Author: THROGG
Date: on 09/05/2015 12:13 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


>>I noticed it uses the same Seed 10 as 107,<<

Looks like a typo there; 107 is deep blues, spiritual.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 541
Author: AUDIOSERF
Date: on 09/05/2015 12:20 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


No typo. Deep blues offers a +25 TD boost chance at Seed 10, similar to this 503 update.

https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/107

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 543
Author: THROGG
Date: on 09/05/2015 12:23 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


>>No typo. Deep blues offers a +25 TD boost chance at Seed 10, similar to this 503 update.<<

Different lore though. I see what you're saying though.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 544
Author: THROGG
Date: on 09/05/2015 12:27 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


>>you're complaining that the seed's too high? <<

Hey, it's a benny that wasn't there before, I'll certainly take it. But we can always try to squeeze out a bit extra.

Also, my own consideration about seed was before the incidence of how the extra DS is triggered was clarified. If it does indeed potentially work against every attack (the initial wording was ambiguous), then a 10 seed isn't that unreasonable.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 545
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/05/2015 12:27 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


>Thurfel's Ward was already one of the most sought after defensive spells in the game.

From the sounds of it this bonus is self cast only so unless someone using it from a scroll or imbeddable happens to have Earth Lore Ranks (in other words never) this change isn't going to affect how sought after this spell may be.

>I just don't even know what to say anymore.

Then stop posting.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 546
Author: ARIETTA
Date: on 09/05/2015 12:35 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


>>But we can always try to squeeze out a bit extra. >>>

Yeah, I get that. But you have to admit, it's gotten a bit ridiculous. No, "thanks for the update!" or anything, just, "but why doesn't it do THIS??? Wahhhh!". I can only imagine the GMs have developed a healthy sense of humor over all this. Either that or they're secretly plotting our destruction.

>>Then stop posting.>>>

Nah. It seems to annoy you, personally. That makes it all worthwhile.

~ GtG

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 547
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/05/2015 12:37 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


>Either that or they're secretly plotting our destruction.

Are you completely unfamiliar with the announced nerfs?

>Nah. It seems to annoy you, personally. That makes it all worthwhile.

You give yourself entirely too much credit.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 548
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/05/2015 12:57 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


Hi everyone.

Just jumping in to remind you that if someone doesn't agree with you, that is not a reason to be rude. If you're frustrated or unhappy, I'm here to accept and read your criticisms, but I would like to ask that you let other players have their opinions without trying to make them feel bad about it.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 549
Author: THROGG
Date: on 09/05/2015 01:03 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


But ... but ... if they disagree with ME, they are clearly total rubes, and it is my obvious civic duty to make them aware of that fact, so that they can seek help.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 550
Author: AUDIOSERF
Date: on 09/05/2015 01:05 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


I think this is a cool buff, no question about it. I just don't like what's more or less a trend of really high seeds over this ELR. But I'm not a GM and I'm not designing the game. So, cool buff.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 551
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 09/05/2015 01:08 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


GtG
But you have to admit, it's gotten a bit ridiculous. No, "thanks for the update!" or anything, just, "but why doesn't it do THIS??? Wahhhh!".

Yeah, we've gotten to that point and well past it. I've been doing this long enough for it not to be an issue for me, but I've specifically had to tell the newer Dev GMs to try to look past it all and if they don't want to do future wizard updates, I don't blame them. They are volunteers and have spent many hours on all these updates with little appreciation.

That's not too say you should not voice your concerns or provide constructive criticism. We've already made a number of changes after the fact based upon player feedback. However, back to the original point, we get you don't like seed 10, but these updates are balanced against the entire bonuses that a specific lore provides. As I've stated before, it's not worth it to train to 108 EL:E ranks for an 8% chance for +20 DS. But there is a strong incentive to train EL:E for that plus the significant number of other benefits that come along with it. I suspect we'll see a definite shift in how wizards view and train elemental lores once the ELR is complete.

There will be more seed 10 lore updates, so if that is your only complaint, consider it noted.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 552
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/05/2015 01:14 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


> No, "thanks for the update!" or anything, just, "but why doesn't it do THIS??? Wahhhh!".

I knew what I was signing up for when I said I wanted to be a Dev GM.  :)

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 553
Author: ZENDADA
Date: on 09/05/2015 01:28 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


At 60 ranks having a 5% chance to get an extra +20 DS on every incoming attack seems pretty darn good.

For my particular air attuned warmage build I'm not even 1x in air lore yet but I'm leaning towards getting some earth lore just for the added defensive benefits let alone a few other key spell upgrades. Wizards who 2x lores are going to be the ones who really score from this ELR.

Chad, player of a few

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 554
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/05/2015 01:55 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


>> Yeah, we've gotten to that point and well past it. I've been doing this long enough for it not to be an issue for me, but I've specifically had to tell the newer Dev GMs to try to look past it all and if they don't want to do future wizard updates, I don't blame them. They are volunteers and have spent many hours on all these updates with little appreciation.

TGO01 summarized it best, the problem right now is that people can't change gears properly from the "Big Three" discussion (which is class-shaking enough that yeah, there's going to be friction no matter what) to these smaller items.

Hand's Down, if this was the only benefit Earth lore got you, yeah it's downright laughable (and I'm glad Estild will freely admit that), but it's layered on top of everything else (which is the part people are forgetting). Honestly... as I mentioned right now, so far Earth Lore has gotten all the loves! At first I was worried that the 50 levels I wanted to take for enchanting were a waste, but now they're not at all.

>> Hey, it's a benny that wasn't there before, I'll certainly take it. But we can always try to squeeze out a bit extra.

Agreed, and here's my fish:

Any benefit is great, but if you're in the more moderate lore benefit crowd, this will turn into an average DS increase of .4 (3% for +20 bonus) which does seem a little lackluster. Is there any way we can either do an initial 5% or increase the depth of the bonus? Even for a maxed out character, long timeline this ends up being a 2.4 DS increase as announced, adding that 5% caps it at 3.6 DS increase. Neither of these is redefining the class or anything.

Thank you either way, but yes, we'll ALWAYS try and squeeze out what we can get.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 555
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 09/05/2015 03:02 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


I certainly appreciate the mechanics sections. Thanks, it really does make life easier :)

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 556
Author: GS4-CONTEMPLAR
Date: on 09/05/2015 03:09 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


>I can only imagine the GMs have developed a healthy sense of humor over all this.

It takes a pretty tough skin on the other side of the curtain to take things in stride. Truthfully, we are laying bets back here on what you players will complain about next on each release. Never no mind, when so far it has been a total net plus benefit on each released spell for ELR.

But as Estild has noted, we hear your concerns about seeds. (Perhaps, you should plant them and water them instead!) But there is more yet to come...

>Either that or they're secretly plotting our destruction.

That is Kenstrom's job.

~Contemplar~

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 557
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/05/2015 03:13 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


>> It takes a pretty tough skin on the other side of the curtain to take things in stride. Truthfully, we are laying bets back here on what you players will complain about next on each release. Never no mind, when so far it has been a total net plus benefit on each released spell for ELR.

If I should HAPPEN to get an email that one of the GM's has placed a bet that the players will complain about the Spell Name, I could arrange to make sure players are complaining about it...

I'm not saying anything would happen if I got half the winnings, just making statements...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 558
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/05/2015 03:15 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


>Truthfully, we are laying bets back here on what you players will complain about next on each release.

Are we paying customers annoying you too much?

>Never no mind, when so far it has been a total net plus benefit on each released spell for ELR.

When taking the upcoming nerfs into account this has been a HHHUUUGGGEEE net negative. Sure, thus far it's a positive, but we wizards are looking towards the future.

I did a live stream last night pitting my wizard without using rapid fire against my empath, bard, and sorc, and they all three blew my Wizard away in terms of killing power and utility and defense.

My empath was slaughtering things left and right without working up a sweat. My bard has his "OH NO!" 1040 button when things look grim. My sorc can roundtime lock critters with pain and kill most things with just 3 casts.

Meanwhile my wizard was just tossing out immolate and hoping for a crit.

I'd be more than happy to livestream it again to show everyone that wizards aren't this overpowered killing machine people seem to think they are. They just hunt differently, not necessarily "better."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 559
Author: GOLDENOAK2
Date: on 09/05/2015 03:30 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


>I did a live stream last night pitting my wizard without using rapid fire against my empath, bard, and sorc, and they all three blew my Wizard away in terms of killing power and utility and defense.

Isn't the big nerf here just adding a second RT...If adding a second between casts is going to make you outclassed then the problem is not with the spell.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 560
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/05/2015 03:35 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


>Isn't the big nerf here just adding a second RT...

No...

It's also the cooldown of the spell.

>If adding a second between casts is going to make you outclassed then the problem is not with the spell.

If you're saying the problem is with me, then no. Stop. We are not going to have such a silly discussion.

If you're saying the problem is with the class as a whole then I can agree with that. What I disagree with the GM's approach on this is nerfing wizards now then saying "Meh, maybe someday we'll balance you to be effective hunters again."

As we can see some GMs apparently are already getting tired of doing work for wizards and Estild as apparently told them he wouldn't blame them if they don't want to work on wizards ever again, not too reassuring in the "maybe we'll work on you again in the future" department.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 561
Author: KARDIOS
Date: on 09/05/2015 05:16 PM PDT
Subject: Statistics Question


Is the below correct? I know this is supposed to be a simple probability question, but I'm rusty.

If a Wizard with 25 earth lore ranks is wearing 414, 406, 401 and 503, and the Wizard is attacked with a weapon, then the probability that at least one of the two special effects (either 414 or 503) will activate is 6.9%. That's a 5% chance for 414 and a 2% chance for 503 minus 0.1% overlap.

If the same Wizard is wearing 414, 406, 401, 503 and 507, and the Wizard is attacked by a bolt spell, then the probability that at least one of the three special effects (414 [5%], 503 [2%], or 507 [6%]) will activate is 12.994%.

And if the same Wizard is also wearing 520, then that's another 2% points, bringing the total to 14.99988%. With several independent chances of a special effect activating, you can pretty much just add the probabilities and ignore the overlap chance, so I'll just call it 15%.

Right?

Next question: Can more than one special ability activate from a single attack? For example, could 414 and 520 both activate?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 562
Author: TANDL
Date: on 09/05/2015 05:33 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Statistics Question


Your numbers are a hair off (but close). For your middle example the best bet is to use...

100[1-(.95×.98×.94)]=12.486

Instead of the 12.994 you have listed.

That is for at LEAST 1 of the abilities to activate. Also there has been no mention of anything being mutually exclusive so I don't think they would be.

Tal.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 563
Author: THROGG
Date: on 09/05/2015 05:51 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


>>I knew what I was signing up for when I said I wanted to be a Dev GM.<<

"You knew the job was dangerous when you took it."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 564
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 09/05/2015 06:22 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


>Never no mind, when so far it has been a total net plus benefit on each released spell for ELR.

Yes, well, thanks for the work, but no thanks when you consider that none of any of these high seed flare updates are going to make up for the lack of offensive power from the upcoming nerfs. We're well aware you're all volunteers, but wherever this blanket nerf wizard directive came from, it is garbage all around. I doubt it would have been any better received had it occurred to any other profession, and the fact is no other profession has received such huge, overwhelmingly negative mass downgrades not once, but twice including GemStone III Growing Pains.

As a whole, none of this is going to result in anything but wizards being less fun and more tedious to play all around. To whomever was the source of this idea, your staff is voluntary, but so is your player base in whether to open their wallets and continue to pay not insignificant sums for a niche text-based game and its numerous cash drain pay events when you decide to wreck builds that had worked perfectly fine for over a decade.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 565
Author: KARDIOS
Date: on 09/05/2015 06:22 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Statistics Question


Your numbers are a hair off (but close). For your middle example the best bet is to use...
100[1-(.95×.98×.94)]=12.486
Instead of the 12.994 you have listed.
That is for at LEAST 1 of the abilities to activate. Also there has been no mention of anything being mutually exclusive so I don't think they would be.
Tal.

Thank you! Also, let me compliment you on your multiplication signs. That alone convinces me that I can take you word for it without trying to think it through.

In my last example of 25 earth lore ranks running 414, 503, 507 and 520, the probability of activating at least one ability would be 14.2% (1-.95×.98×.94×.98).

At higher probabilities, doing the calculation correctly will be more consequential. At 100 ranks, it would be 30.8% (1-.92×.93×.87×.93). That's lower than I would have calculated under the erroneous method I was using.

Have any of you actually seen two abilities activate at the same time?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 566
Author: GS4-CONTEMPLAR
Date: on 09/05/2015 06:54 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


>Yes, well, thanks for the work, but no thanks when you consider that none of any of these high seed flare updates are going to make up for the lack of offensive power from the upcoming nerfs. We're well aware you're all volunteers, but wherever this blanket nerf wizard directive came from, it is garbage all around. I doubt it would have been any better received had it occurred to any other profession, and the fact is no other profession has received such huge, overwhelmingly negative mass downgrades not once, but twice including GemStone III Growing Pains.

>As a whole, none of this is going to result in anything but wizards being less fun and more tedious to play all around. To whomever was the source of this idea, your staff is voluntary, but so is your player base in whether to open their wallets and continue to pay not insignificant sums for a niche text-based game and its numerous cash drain pay events when you decide to wreck builds that had worked perfectly fine for over a decade.

First of all, nobody is out to wreck the wizard profession. Certainly not me when you consider my main PC is a capped wizard. Also, I don't think anybody on staff is out to make the wizard profession any less fun either. We are not out to get you. We are not out to destroy anything.

You do realize that all this negative energy is over just 3 out of 60+ spells available to the wizard profession. We hear a lot about how players want some variety in their hunting styles. How they would like to go away from just a rapid fire 901 build, or the immolation build. Or the fact that some claim there are only 3 different types or "you are doing it wrong", all based off of 3 crutch spells, 506, 515, and/or 519.

Now you tell me what is wrong with that picture? Why aren't there more than just those 3? Wouldn't you like the possibility to further tailor your wizard, and have "other" paths that are just as viable as the "big 3" are now?

Yes. There are going to be changes to some of the spells, but I ask you to hold your final judgement on those changes until that actually happen. Otherwise, enjoy the positive changes so far.

~Contemplar~

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 567
Author: HJELTE
Date: on 09/05/2015 06:56 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


Balekia took my thunder, even with responding and backing up Dreaven... Well done!

I liked the 507 mechanic of being able to kill warriors that we're hunting with, and the lore influences on 904... but... The wizard class really doesn't need DS. On the spectrum of all classes, I'd say before the ELR began, Wizards were probably pretty close to #1 on the physical DS side.

Given the announced nerfs to the big three, I'm half anticipating this is like the skit from Parks and Rec...

"Yeah, Chris pumped everyone up and made them feel positive and happy. And I swooped in and slashed their budgets to ribbons. Like a majestic alley-oop. You're all amazing! You're all fired. Teamwork."

I keep thinking that they're buffing DS from other spells because they're going to remove 913, and introduce it with like... I dunno... A worse version of Purify Air or something? That seems like them.

~Whirlin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 568
Author: HJELTE
Date: on 09/05/2015 07:00 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


First of all, nobody is out to wreck the wizard profession. Certainly not me when you consider my main PC is a capped wizard. Also, I don't think anybody on staff is out to make the wizard profession any less fun either. We are not out to get you. We are not out to destroy anything.
You do realize that all this negative energy is over just 3 out of 60+ spells available to the wizard profession. We hear a lot about how players want some variety in their hunting styles. How they would like to go away from just a rapid fire 901 build, or the immolation build. Or the fact that some claim there are only 3 different types or "you are doing it wrong", all based off of 3 crutch spells, 506, 515, and/or 519.
Now you tell me what is wrong with that picture? Why aren't there more than just those 3? Wouldn't you like the possibility to further tailor your wizard, and have "other" paths that are just as viable as the "big 3" are now?
Yes. There are going to be changes to some of the spells, but I ask you to hold your final judgement on those changes until that actually happen. Otherwise, enjoy the positive changes so far.
~Contemplar~

Yeah, but lets take a look at each of the professions... are there 3 spells that they would be incredibly upset if they weren't allowed to cast anymore in the future?

Clerics: Lets Remove 317, 302, and 318 Empaths: Lets Remove 1106, 240, and 1115 Sorcerers: Lets Remove 719, 711, and 720

I mean geeze... it's just 3/60 of their spells... they shouldn't be upset at all, right?

~Whirlin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 569
Author: ZENDADA
Date: on 09/05/2015 07:16 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Statistics Question


Wow. This is a revelation for me. Thanks for posting this. Would adding some flaring spiked armor, helm, arm and leg greaves, aventail, and a reactive flaring runestaff raise that percentage even more?

Close to 13% is already pretty awesome for only 25 ranks of lore.

Chad, player of a few

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 570
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/05/2015 07:20 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


Yeah, I think that has absolutely tainted the lens through which many wizards are seeing the ELR bonuses, myself included. It's hard to get excited about .5 avg DS increase when you've got a potential gigantic offensive decreases approaching (with very little justification).


That said, I think the defensive elements of EL:E are coming together in a way that would make me consider training it if I had TPs to spend. But I don't :(

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 571
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/05/2015 07:25 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


>Now you tell me what is wrong with that picture? Why aren't there more than just those 3? Wouldn't you like the possibility to further tailor your wizard, and have "other" paths that are just as viable as the "big 3" are now?

No offense but that is pretty silly reasoning. Just about every profession probably falls into "the big 3" cookie cutter builds.

Even squares. You have the sword/board build that mostly relies on ambushing, the two handed/polearm that relies on just killing things, and the ranged build that could be further broken down into open ranged and hiding ranged. Now I guess you can throw in UAC.

Monks pretty much have exactly 1 way to hunt.

If bards decide to go the "pure" route they have exactly one spell to rely on for that.

Empaths at higher levels are most likely going to be using bone shatter or wither.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 572
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/05/2015 07:28 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


>> Now you tell me what is wrong with that picture? Why aren't there more than just those 3? Wouldn't you like the possibility to further tailor your wizard, and have "other" paths that are just as viable as the "big 3" are now?

I'd love it, but I think where things are blowing up is that the current builds are being removed before the new paths are opened up, at least in terms of offensive spells. If the new offensive replacements for those spells were already released/teased, there'd be a different reaction.

This couples with the fact that we've already been told that this is an ELR, not a Wizard review, and that we shouldn't expect any replacement for (perceived) power lost from those spells. Basically, in order to make those spells have lore components, they have to be nerfed because the lore component mitigates part of that nerf. If this wasn't communicated properly, and in fact there will be adjustments to allow other paths, than that's different, but there's a reason those three paths ended up being it.

As Whirlin said, the new defensive stuff is nice, and appreciated, but unless some serious nuke spell, or multiple low damage utility spells, is waiting in the wings, still trying to see what replaces the damage shift from losing the main staple spells. In every MMO I've played, low damage characters are boring, even if they're unkillable.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 573
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 09/05/2015 07:29 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


>First of all, nobody is out to wreck the wizard profession. Certainly not me when you consider my main PC is a capped wizard. Also, I don't think anybody on staff is out to make the wizard profession any less fun either. We are not out to get you. We are not out to destroy anything.

Then I have to question when was the last time you hunted your capped wizard in a post-cap hunting ground (and I don't mean OTF). Certainly if it was not the intent, the result is the same.

>You do realize that all this negative energy is over just 3 out of 60+ spells available to the wizard profession. We hear a lot about how players want some variety in their hunting styles. How> they would like to go away from just a rapid fire 901 build, or the immolation build. Or the fact that some claim there are only 3 different types or "you are doing it wrong", all based off of 3 crutch spells, 506, 515, and/or 519.

No, actually I haven't really heard that. Do you hear clerics and empaths complaining (as one Dev GM admitted) about their two viable CS spells? And staff continuing to try to be dismissive about the scale of nerfs is disingenuous when you're talking about only nerfing the core, profession-defining spells without any replacements to fix the glaring weaknesses exposed by their removal (from 100% uptime).

>Now you tell me what is wrong with that picture? Why aren't there more than just those 3? Wouldn't you like the possibility to further tailor your wizard, and have "other" paths that are just as viable as the "big 3" are now?

No, you've basically wrecked 3 viable training paths that each cost a huge amount of experience, TPs, and financial investment in gear to make viable and are forcing us to now play the game in the cookie cutter pure fashion because you can.

>Yes. There are going to be changes to some of the spells, but I ask you to hold your final judgement on those changes until that actually happen. Otherwise, enjoy the positive changes so far.

Sadly, as Whirlin has pointed out, such is the lack of faith over the deafening silence about any potential good news coming out that we mostly assume there will be heavy prices to pay for these minor and inconsequential boosts you keep trying to get us to accept as platitudes for what we're losing. If it were any other profession, perhaps it wouldn't all be taken quite so badly, but the fact is wizards have largely received nerf after nerf after nerf since GemStone III, so this is the bitterest pill to swallow after Hot Sorcerer Nights becomes Huge Summer Nerfs for wizards and after many spent thousands of dollars upgrading their gear via Duskruin this year. To be perfectly honest, the ELR/wizard nerfs are the biggest buzzkill of the last decade of GS.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 574
Author: GOLDENOAK2
Date: on 09/05/2015 07:36 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


>No offense but that is pretty silly reasoning. Just about every profession probably falls into "the big 3" cookie cutter builds.

Its silly for them to say we want to find a way for you to be the most versatile class with more than just a few possible training strategies?

Don't you guys think you are being a bit hard on the GMs considering they are dropping a crap load of updates...every single one is another page of complaints...when every one has been an addition to what you already have. Every time they do an update the attitude is but it still doesn't make up for the future nerf we are going to get...they have already said they are reviewing the planned downgrades and revising things...let the GMs who work for free...actually work. If I was a GM I working on the wizard changes I would have already put in an application for another team, because you guys are thankless.

You guys are going to wind up crying for years about not getting any love because you chased all the GMs away with total negativity. If any of you GMs want to come work on Minor Mental spells we have quite a few slots that need some love...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 575
Author: FIREPHOENIX
Date: on 09/05/2015 07:40 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


Sadly, as Whirlin has pointed out, such is the lack of faith over the deafening silence about any potential good news coming out that we mostly assume there will be heavy prices to pay for these minor and inconsequential boosts you keep trying to get us to accept as platitudes for what we're losing. If it were any other profession, perhaps it wouldn't all be taken quite so badly, but the fact is wizards have largely received nerf after nerf after nerf since GemStone III, so this is the bitterest pill to swallow after Hot Sorcerer Nights becomes Huge Summer Nerfs for wizards and after many spent thousands of dollars upgrading their gear via Duskruin this year. To be perfectly honest, the ELR/wizard nerfs are the biggest buzzkill of the last decade of GS.>>

The ELR is completely seperate from the 3 spell change/revamp, one of them is occurring now and being tainted by vile responses and pitchforking while the other is proposed changes that already have been revamped from the initial announcement, but continue being blinded by red in the meantime.

>>Your wizard doesn't hunt. You must not be a wizard. You hate wizards. You are a wizard? You must suck so your opinion doesn't matter>>

That's just a few paraphrased responses in the past 10 or so posts. Are you all reading your posts and/or do you care others have to read them? What does this kind of stance accomplish? It makes you feel good, but cheapens the experience for others and their opinion of said posters. These are not well reasoned arguments.

As it stands a rapidfire with a 3x3 spell cast doesn't ruin the game. Haste is being revamped and Immolation is being split into two components and it's power is being leveled vs. peaked. These are reasonable changes and not the doomsday device people scream to the high heavens about. They are adaptable changes and continue to be in review.

The ELR is now and some flavor/usage additions have been nicely implemented on them to a "That's useless" meme vibe.

I've read all these posts and I'm exhausted by it all. Kudos to the staff for bearing the brunt of about 6 players posting.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 576
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/05/2015 07:41 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Statistics Question


Please keep in mind the 520 flare only connects on a hit and the 508 on a bolt. So if you're looking for reactions to SWINGS you should limit yourself to the 503 and 414 changes.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 577
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/05/2015 07:45 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


>Its silly for them to say we want to find a way for you to be the most versatile class with more than just a few possible training strategies?

Is that what they've said? The GMs have said they are nerfing the 3 most viable training paths so they can offer us more than 3 viable training paths? Awesome. Link? Post number? Plans to accomplish this? Anything?

>Don't you guys think you are being a bit hard on the GMs

No.

>considering they are dropping a crap load of updates

Updates that quite honestly have amounted to very little in terms of how I play my wizard. Compare this to the HUGE nerfs they are bringing us. My wizard uses all 3 spells that are being nerfed quite frequently.

>Every time they do an update the attitude is but it still doesn't make up for the future nerf we are going to get

How dare us tell the truth! The nerve of some people!!

>they have already said they are reviewing the planned downgrades and revising things

And yet they have already stated that some things are simply off the table; namely that Rapid Fire will have a 1 second castRT at a minimum. That is 1 second too long.

>let the GMs who work for free...actually work.

I am getting sick and tired of this excuse. I PAY to play this game, does my say and my wants have less significance because Simutronics chooses to pay their employees next to nothing? That's an odd way of looking at things.

The GMs apparently are taking our concerns so seriously they are making bets with one another in what we, the paying customers, are going to "complain" about next. You'll have to forgive me if my sympathy for them went way down after reading that little tidbit.

>You guys are going to wind up crying for years about not getting any love because you chased all the GMs away with total negativity.

Maybe we can "chase them away" from nerfing us first. But I love this "roll over and die" attitude a lot of people seem to have about this. Like, the GMs are going to come in and nerf some of our more powerful spells then we better sit down and shut up so that they maybe come back within the next dozen or so years and give us some love for the nerfs.

How about they have a game plan ahead of time before nerfing us.

>If any of you GMs want to come work on Minor Mental spells we have quite a few slots that need some love...

Do you even play a wizard?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 578
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/05/2015 07:48 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


Anyone else find it odd that this has a worse seed than the 414 change but for a far inferior benefit? I'm not complaining so much as curious why that is the case.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 579
Author: COSTELLOK
Date: on 09/05/2015 08:06 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


Because one of them requires spell x03, and the other one requires x01, x06, and x14 simultaneously?


Fyonn's player

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 580
Author: MDEVEAU
Date: on 09/05/2015 08:37 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


As long as they have the solution in place prior to the nerfing....It doesn't sound like this is the case or intent.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 581
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/05/2015 10:03 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


Because one of them requires spell x03, and the other one requires x01, x06, and x14 simultaneously?
Fyonn's player

It's not like either of those conditions is very burdensome. By the time one gets an appreciable amount of earth lore I would expect one would have those spells up permanently.

I would have put the chance on 503 to be roughly 2x the chance 414 currently enjoys. It's not like 20DS will save you every time. It's just a nice bonus to potentially cut down the damage if you're caught in offensive. It might even make more sense on 520, ie: the stone skin reflexively thickening in response to an incoming attack, and have 503 do a random elemental flare on strike. <shrug> Just my opinion.

If any of my posts have hurt anyone's feelings I apologize, that was certainly not my intent. I do care about the wizard profession and would prefer not to stop playing/switch characters, so I hope you manage to pull all the threads together into a solid whole. I'm rooting for you!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 583
Author: KARDIOS
Date: on 09/06/2015 02:54 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


>> Thurfel's Ward now provides its caster a (Ranks in Elemental Lore, Earth, Seed 10) percent chance to gain +20 DS for a single attack. >> ~ Konacon

When a Wizard casts it on another person, does the target get the benefit of the Wizard's lore ranks?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 584
Author: HJELTE
Date: on 09/06/2015 07:31 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Statistics Question


Please keep in mind... This is probability... not statistics.

-Thatguy.

~Whirlin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 585
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/06/2015 08:50 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


I did manage to find a spot where I found this spell useful, if anyone is interested. Fighting roa'ters as a warmage.

Open with a slow (easily warded as I"m a couple levels above). Then feint (they start in defensive). Bash their wormy face in.

Using this methodology I was able to kill them without them being able to act. With these buggers that is definitely a good thing.

If I was to suggest one improvement, I would really love if the RT bonus from air lore was applied to that initial 3sec RT (making it 4 with my 24 ranks I think?). Every once in a while the roa'ter would immediately act when the 3sec was up before I could pull off my action. I feel like getting a second to act first wouldn't be unbalanced since you do have to successfully ward with no pushdown.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 586
Author: THROGG
Date: on 09/06/2015 10:10 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


If you can ward them with slow, how about sleep first, haste yourself while they snooze, then hit them with slow?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 587
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 09/06/2015 10:12 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


>> The surface of water can now be frozen when Ice Patch is cast, which will mimic the Water Walking (112) spell for that one room. This affect applies to all players as long as the ice patch is in the room (Not just the caster or the caster's group, although keep in mind that ice patches don't last very long once the caster is gone).

Okay, this may sound counter-intuitive at first but I did some testing with this around Icemule on the slippery areas (where if you run through the room you slip and fall on your backside). While I understand that it is slippery because it is icy, the ice patch can clearly be walked upon in other areas so if I lay a patch of ice patch ice on top of the slippery ice then... shouldn't I be able to walk on that without slipping?

I didn't test for dragging corpses across this (yet) but I would expect that to be able to happen as well.

-- Robert

"All wizards are beginners; some of us have just been beginning longer!"

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 588
Author: THROGG
Date: on 09/06/2015 10:17 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


One could just as easily argue that trying to walk over water using ice patched areas should give a chance of slipping and falling.

Or that you are making the icy area around Ice Mule even more slippery, with 2x the chance of falling :)

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 589
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 09/06/2015 10:28 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


>> One could just as easily argue that trying to walk over water using ice patched areas should give a chance of slipping and falling.

I think you just did. :p

-- Robert

"All wizards are beginners; some of us have just been beginning longer!"

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 590
Author: KARDIOS
Date: on 09/06/2015 01:04 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


If you create the ice, then you know where it is, and you know to be especially careful. If the ice occurs naturally or if someone else creates it, then you do not know that you need to be careful.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 591
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/06/2015 01:28 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


I tried that, and roa'ters are sleep-able. But the minimum 125 required warding makes it only a 3/4 proposition compared to almost certainly succeeding with the slow.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 593
Author: THROGG
Date: on 09/06/2015 07:00 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


>>If you create the ice, then you know where it is, and you know to be especially careful.<<

Just knowing that ice is there does not, by itself, prevent falling; as you mention, one must take extra care. Which means that progress over such a patch of covered water should take a lot more time. Perhaps an extra 5-6 seconds of RT per room traversed. Oooh! Just had a visual flash of Eliza crossing the ice floes!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 594
Author: ASPEN
Date: on 09/07/2015 05:20 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>Yeah, I'm sorry. I just don't get it. Speaking for myself, I don't get hit by bolts to begin with. Spiritual warding spells, CMANs, maneuver rolls. These things cause me problems. So while this is ostensibly a benefit, it is actually no benefit to my character at all and in fact presents a new danger that is extremely costly to mitigate. If liches wear 507 (and I'm pretty sure they do), they wear it along with a slew of other spells. And 530 will only remove 2 spells at a time from them due to the level difference. I can't fire off bolts at anything that has this spell because it's basically an 8% chance to kill myself.

>I wish you'd think these things through. This impacts some players a lot more than others.

Yes, well said.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 595
Author: ASPEN
Date: on 09/07/2015 05:21 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>Just restrict the reflected bolt to hitting other critters or dispelling into the ground when player cast on a critter.

This.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 597
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 09/07/2015 07:02 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


>Never no mind, when so far it has been a total net plus benefit on each released spell for ELR.

Net benefit to who? The mystery guy up the chain at Simu that said to nerf wizards? The GMs that play sorcerers? Certainly not for wizards.

It's like you think we forgot about our big 3 spells are about to get obliterated.

Who's the mystery guy above Wyrom and Solomon (yeah I know Solomon is gone now, but that's beside the point) that thinks combat needs to slow down anyway? I'm extremely curious why this question has been ignored over and over after the initial statement was made by whoever it was. Which probably translates to "I just made it up but didn't expect to get called out on it, so let's just ignore the question when asked and maybe they'll forget about it."

I really hate to be making bitter sounding posts so much, but we basically keep hearing "You'll be fine, stop crying." while our t-bone steak is being taken away and being replaced with a slice of Spam, but adding like 3 chocolate chips onto our dessert that wasn't there before, but we have to go out and complete a decathalon before we can get them.

But seriously, why do questions about who the mystery guy way up the chain at Simu is keep getting ignored? Why is it such a huge secret?

>First of all, nobody is out to wreck the wizard profession. Certainly not me when you consider my main PC is a capped wizard. Also, I don't think anybody on staff is out to make the wizard profession any less fun either. We are not out to get you. We are not out to destroy anything.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I'm sure (most of) the government isn't out to get us either, but you see how things typically go when they try to "fix" stuff, especially when ordered to do so by someone way up high that's completely out of touch with things. Kind of like this mystery guy that said combat needs to slow down, that probably hasn't even logged into GS in years.

>You do realize that all this negative energy is over just 3 out of 60+ spells available to the wizard profession. We hear a lot about how players want some variety in their hunting styles. How they would like to go away from just a rapid fire 901 build, or the immolation build. Or the fact that some claim there are only 3 different types or "you are doing it wrong", all based off of 3 crutch spells, 506, 515, and/or 519.

I'm just going to repeat Whirlin's post, since it summed it up quite nicely:

Yeah, but lets take a look at each of the professions... are there 3 spells that they would be incredibly upset if they weren't allowed to cast anymore in the future?

Clerics: Lets Remove 317, 302, and 318 Empaths: Lets Remove 1106, 240, and 1115 Sorcerers: Lets Remove 719, 711, and 720

I mean geeze... it's just 3/60 of their spells... they shouldn't be upset at all, right?

Clearly those classes are broken too since they rely on 3 spells so much. Perhaps you should nerf them and give them a bunch of seed 10 lore benefits for miniscule defensive bonuses so that they can be functional again.

What sort of build was your capped wizard using that didn't involve relying on 506, 515, and/or 519? 506 and 515 I can understand being called a crutch spell. Actually not so much 506, but 515 yeah, it's a band aid for a boring uninspiring garbage bolting system. But let's say 506 is a crutch spell too. Now the new thing is for every step you hobble out with your crutch, it gets kicked away for the next 2 steps, and we're being told to just stand there and wait it out until the crutch magically appears under our arm again.

>Now you tell me what is wrong with that picture? Why aren't there more than just those 3? Wouldn't you like the possibility to further tailor your wizard, and have "other" paths that are just as viable as the "big 3" are now?

Sure. Except we were already told that this is the elemental lore review and not the elemental spell review, which might happen at some unknown point in the future. In other words, never. All the seed 10 lore benefits in the world aren't going to matter. Like how putting a band aid on cancer won't matter.

>Yes. There are going to be changes to some of the spells, but I ask you to hold your final judgement on those changes until that actually happen. Otherwise, enjoy the positive changes so far.

>~Contemplar~

I'm really not trying to sound rude here, but why should we have any faith at this point? Considering the weak justifications we've been hearing from GMs for nerfing our big 3, then some whoppers like being told things war mages should switch to bolts or hang out somewhere else during the haste cooldown as a "solution" to dealing with the haste nerf shows a complete disconnect.

Is the "good stuff" we're supposed to get to supposedly offset the 506/515/519 nerfs just not ready yet? Or are you trying to save those for last? I ask this because until we find out in detail what's going to happen to our offensive power, very few wizards are going to care about some minute defensive bonus with a seed 10, even if there are 50 different seed 10 bonuses for each lore. In fact, we're not going to care much at all about any of these things until we find out the details of the important stuff.

Know what else makes no sense? We get told that this is the ELR and not the wizard spell review, but the first thing announced for the ELR was a complete nerf of our biggest 3 spells. Can someone explain to me how that isn't a complete contradiction? Best case it was an ignorant statement, but GMs are typically pretty smart people, so I just lump it into the disingenuous category. Either that, or whoever originally made that statement just thinks we're stupid and didn't notice that.

I'm sure others have already posted that have articulated the same point better than I, so I'll just TLDR this whole post:

http://www.kappit.com/img/pics/76403994icdce_sm.jpg

>You guys are going to wind up crying for years about not getting any love because you chased all the GMs away with total negativity. -Goldenoak

Players can't chase the GMs away if the GMs chase away the players first.

Despite all that, I'm still trying to have hope for what the rest of the review will bring. I'm just setting my expectations very very low, because that's the only way you don't get let down. And because I'm not going to delude myself into thinking wizards will be more fun at the end of this whole fiasco.

>And yet they have already stated that some things are simply off the table; namely that Rapid Fire will have a 1 second castRT at a minimum. That is 1 second too long.

If they're so stuck on this one second thing, change the spell to Burst Fire already. If you cast a triple bolt, you're still eating 3 seconds of cast RT, etc.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 599
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 09/07/2015 07:54 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


>> It's like you think we forgot about our big 3 spells are about to get obliterated.

- Immolation doesn't sound like it's been obliterated at all regardless of which way it was used previously. - Sounds like they are reworking haste based on the feedback and we don't know what is happening yet. - Just about everyone thinks 100%, 0 second RT was OP so yeah it's getting taken down a notch. How about making some new suggestions if you aren't happy with the current suggestions instead of just whining about it post after post?

>> But seriously, why do questions about who the mystery guy way up the chain at Simu is keep getting ignored? Why is it such a huge secret?

Maybe because it isn't relevant to the discussion? How about we just say it's Kilroy and move on?

>> I'm really not trying to sound rude here, but why should we have any faith at this point?

Seriously dude. You have one of the most offensive posting styles of just about anyone on the forums.

They've made a large number of changes so far based on the player feedback (read constructive feedback here, not whining).

>> Considering the weak justifications we've been hearing from GMs for nerfing our big 3, then some whoppers like being told things war mages should switch to bolts or hang out somewhere else during the haste cooldown as a "solution" to dealing with the haste nerf shows a complete disconnect.

Yup. It did come across that way like... 400 plus posts ago. Since then they indicated that they are making some new changes where war mages should be in good shape (which haven't been shared as of yet). Why not focus on the current issues/items that still need to be addressed instead of rehashing history that isn't relevant any more?

>> Is the "good stuff" we're supposed to get to supposedly offset the 506/515/519 nerfs just not ready yet? Or are you trying to save those for last? I ask this because until we find out in detail what's going to happen to our offensive power, very few wizards are going to care about some minute defensive bonus with a seed 10, even if there are 50 different seed 10 bonuses for each lore. In fact, we're not going to care much at all about any of these things until we find out the details of the important stuff.

You people and your "we"... it's been said multiple times that there will an be opportunity to provide feedback once all the releases are announced. Assuming all the devs aren't sick of hearing from wizards completely there will likely be an opportunity to discuss, revisit, and improve in areas that are still lacking.

>> Know what else makes no sense? We get told that this is the ELR and not the wizard spell review, but the first thing announced for the ELR was a complete nerf of our biggest 3 spells. Can someone explain to me how that isn't a complete contradiction? Best case it was an ignorant statement, but GMs are typically pretty smart people, so I just lump it into the disingenuous category. Either that, or whoever originally made that statement just thinks we're stupid and didn't notice that.

You aren't happy with how things have been communicated. Noted. Again.

>> Despite all that, I'm still trying to have hope for what the rest of the review will bring. I'm just setting my expectations very very low, because that's the only way you don't get let down. And because I'm not going to delude myself into thinking wizards will be more fun at the end of this whole fiasco.

Here's a very serious suggestion. Why not sit down and identify the top things that you feel make wizards the most fun to play. Is it sharing spells? Is it having an explosion of text that scrolls off the screen every time you cast? Is it casting spells of doom that result in instant death? Once you have that try and think of a few ideas that might accomplish the same thing in a different way or at least relay them in a way that will help the GMs understand what you feel it is missing from the current suggestions.

As an example, the disabling ability of immolation was being removed I think in part, because the GMS felt the spell was OP as it was (with the kill chance, and the damage, and the disabler) and that most people were interested in the killing chances (i.e. immolation build wizards). As someone who uses the disabling ability very regularly but isn't an immolation build wizard I did the following: - I posted my concerns about this being removed. - I compared the ability we were losing against other similar abilities that wizards have (or more to the point that wizards didn't have) and was very specific about the exact features that I felt would be missed (rolling around on the ground vs. doing other things and the advance notice you get of them re-entering combat via putting out the fire, then getting up on the following round). - I tried out some of the suggestions of others to see if something we already had that I wasn't using might provide a suitable alternative (because hey, I know spells I haven't cast in years). - I actually gave a walk through example of how I use immolation's disabling ability in combat against groups and why this allowed me to have more fun with combat vs. my perceived new option of having to simply walk away from groups instead.

I don't know how much impact my individual posts had on the net result but the end result was a solution that I at least find a reasonable compromise. It's still a 'nerf' vs. the current spell but it doesn't prevent me from playing and enjoying the game and there are a LOT of adds that have been announced that easily offset the 'nerf' to this particular spell.

>>>> >And yet they have already stated that some things are simply off the table; namely that Rapid Fire will have a 1 second castRT at a minimum. That is 1 second too long.

>> If they're so stuck on this one second thing, change the spell to Burst Fire already. If you cast a triple bolt, you're still eating 3 seconds of cast RT, etc.

Zero seconds of RT (meaning as fast as your macro can shove the commands into the processing queue) doesn't come across as an issue to you? Sure it's fun! Blazing screen scroll, everything's dead, no one knows what happened except you and your macro. It's also a completely lame (read broken) mechanic in a game where RT matters. If fixing this means we can't hunt effectively without it let's identify the additional fixes that are needed as well while we are in the process of making changes.

-- Robert

"All wizards are beginners; some of us have just been beginning longer!"

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 600
Author: HJELTE
Date: on 09/07/2015 08:22 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


Faulkil; Two points I want to make in response.

1) Inherent disagreement that wizards need to be nerfed at all, and this concept that they're overpowered. I've pointed out across multiple posts, with yayMath about how Spell aiming is the worst AS/DS resolved attacks in the game, and thus we rely on a CS based attack of Immolation post cap, because there are no other ways of obtaining Spell AS.

Hell, at this point in time, if I actually wanted to utilize Spell Aiming, Sorcerers have 425, 715, and much easier access to 513/215/211 than wizards do to 215/211... because even if we had access to 715, we can't star curse.

2) I have absolutely 0 assurance that any post-change fixes will be performed timely. That's why it's important to get it right the first time, so every time we see changes that really don't address ANY problems with playstyle, any power creep to offset the massive playability nerfs we're going to endure, or just really are immaterial, and would not influence the training plan, we're concerned. We've been waiting for the elemental lore review for 12 years. Simu's trackrecord is laughable on timetables... Monks and Savants are coming in 2004, remember? I have absolutely 0 assurance that any fixes to the class after they break it will be swift.

~Whirlin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 601
Author: ASPEN
Date: on 09/07/2015 08:59 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Deflection (507) Updated!


>The 507 Earth Lore Reflection benefit is now player only.

THANK YOU!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 602
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 09/07/2015 09:28 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


First, thanks for a reasonable, thoughtful response to my post (not that I would expect anything different from you!)

>> 1) Inherent disagreement that wizards need to be nerfed at all, and this concept that they're overpowered. I've pointed out across multiple posts, with yayMath about how Spell aiming is the worst AS/DS resolved attacks in the game, and thus we rely on a CS based attack of Immolation post cap, because there are no other ways of obtaining Spell AS.

We're in agreement in that I don't see wizards as OP vs. other professions in the game either. Apologies if my post came across indicating that I felt all of the 'nerfs' are necessary. I still think that 100% up time, stackable, 0 RT rapid fire is a broken mechanic. I get why people enjoy it but... it's still broken. I'd rather have my power come from other areas of my spells. I think the issue with haste is likely more due to it being so commonly available across the spectrum - if it were more limited to Wizards I don't think it would be the same concern. I was perfectly happy with immolation as it was before but I did get a stupid amount of death crits for what I basically use as a disabler.

>> Point 2

I share your concerns about post-change fixes because... history. That's one reason why I am advocating for making your (the general your) issues known in a constructive way now. I don't think any individual has all the answers and I don't think the Dev team has them all yet either. We have an open window for discussion/development now, let's spend it on coming up with better alternatives or making the strong case for not implementing some of the proposed changes on the table now instead of going on a witch hunt for 'Kilroy' or being insulting to the folks we need to implement our ideas and to each other.

The big three:

Immolation - The changes as proposed sound like they will still be viable for immolation wizards post change. At least that's what I got from what I read. I'm able to kill things left and right even without training in this build so even tweaked back a bit I can't imagine it still won't be a very effective hunting style. Maybe you'll need to throw down a disabler once in awhile and then immolate the snot out of everything but it still sounds like it will have an effective kill rate. Also, it seems like something that could be easily tweaked a bit if it was found to be ineffective post change.

RapidFire - Even Tav has stated that this spell is a bit OP at zero seconds so I think it's safe to say that we agree that it is broken (see what I did there). There's been a number of suggestions posted but they generally focus on keeping the spell up 100% and keeping the time as close to 0/1 second as possible. I think the GMs have correctly pointed out that we haven't done a great job of suggesting outside of the box alternatives (what can we do instead of pew pew pew 0.5 seconds your are dead that might be workable and fun)? From my personal perspective I'll find this spell much more useful with a 1 seconds RT and no auto-prep feature as a power up spell (the auto-prep made it pretty undesirable for my play style). But I don't rely on this spell for my day to day hunting and as such I am probably not the best advocate for why we should keep it up 100% or what would be an acceptable alternative.

Haste - Offensively I think 100% up time is what makes war mages viable/fun. I have a low level one so I get the appeal. I think the solutions shared by the dev team so far have fallen short of reasonable expectations for what is 'fun' for this style of play and am looking forward to their latest (as of yet unannounced) proposals. I also took the time to post a suggestion or two myself along these lines although I don't think my proposal(s) would be a 100% solution either. Maybe more ideas are needed here or maybe the dev team will hit it out of the park with their next proposal? Remember, they did put it out for discussion and are making changes here based on the feedback. 100% haste up time on other characters is somewhat game breaking - my paladin hunts with a wizard and she often keeps me 100% hasted. It's fun but it's also a big EASY button for hunting as well. Ratcheting this back to where I can only be hasted some of the time (when things get crazy?) preserves the ability of the wizards to add a cool buff but doesn't mean I get to run around as Super Paladin ALL of the time.

Defensively haste is useful and at present will still be available in bursts. I would argue that it is somewhat mechanics breaking to have it up on everyone in your party all the time. Do the devs now just assume everyone will be hasted and adjust the combat mechanics accordingly? Then the people that don't run around with a mage are sort of out in the cold. If they don't then it's sort of like an easy button for most of the party that does have a wizard. Personally I would like to see haste preserved for wizards and adjusted for non-wizards if it needs to be changed (the 2 minute hard cooldown for casting on others seems a good compromise here). That said, in my personal experience 100% up time on haste for a wizard isn't necessary (not the same thing as saying it NEEDS to be changed). It can easily be something that is thrown up when things are expected to get rough so I find the current proposal from a defensive standpoint acceptable since that is how I use it today anyway. Someone who feels they need it up 100% probably needs to make a compelling argument for why this is necessary and how less than 100% makes their character too vulnerable/unable to hunt effectively.

Hope that helps with my current perspective on the BIG THREE.

For the ELR in general I think there are some good offensive and defensive (mostly these so far) buffs that collectively will offset some of the concerns above (e.g. the need for 100% defensive haste on a wizard). There is still more to come and while I'm providing feedback on the individual spells as they are released I'm also waiting for the big picture. Obviously my concerns and perspectives aren't necessarily the same as yours (we don't all play the game the same way or for the same reasons) so we all need to provide our input and make sure our concerns are understood by the dev team and provide our suggestions and ideas for improvement while the work is underway.

-- Robert

"All wizards are beginners; some of us have just been beginning longer!"

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 603
Author: HJELTE
Date: on 09/07/2015 09:34 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


If you create the ice, then you know where it is, and you know to be especially careful. If the ice occurs naturally or if someone else creates it, then you do not know that you need to be careful.

... And others don't know where it is!...

I'd love to see someone TRY to dive into a pool that's been Ice Patched. BAM, Instant neck death-crit. And more Wizard spells unfriendly! Because, we're getting more unfriendly as it is... may as well!

~Whirlin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 604
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 09/07/2015 09:39 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


Heh. We can go a lot of ways with this but my primary point was that we have the ability to create an ice patch that can be safely walked across (per the update) in some situations. I was just looking to take it a step further and say, I've got this 'safe walking area', let me apply it to more situations where I need a 'safe walking area'. It is somewhat amusing that the 'safe walking area' happens to be ice.

On an unrelated note, this is where it would be fun to have elemental flavor along the lines of frost wizard, eart wizard, fire wizard, etc.

- Ice Patch is slippery, can be made into a mini-iceberg and used like a boat (until it melts). - Earth Patch, you can walk on unsafe areas using it. - Fire Patch, walk across the fire and be cleansed! (or burned to a crisp) - Air Patch, ?

-- Robert

"All wizards are beginners; some of us have just been beginning longer!"

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 605
Author: ERYKK2
Date: on 09/07/2015 10:43 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


Someone who feels they need it up 100% probably needs to make a compelling argument for why this is necessary and how less than 100% makes their character too vulnerable/unable to hunt effectively.

That one is pretty simple for me.


I have no haste running, I'm hunting minotaurs.

One disarm puts me in 5-20 seconds of RT, and I'm instantly dead.

At least with haste, I have a chance to grab my weapon before I die.

I feel Warmages are "glass cannons" that can dish out damage, but die instantly if things go wrong.

RT issues become more and more dangerous the higher level you get.

In OTF, Ithzir can fade in with a leg sweep or disarm. Griffins can swoop in for additional RT.

Having Haste running, for a Warmage, becomes a NEED, not a WANT as you get to cap.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 606
Author: HJELTE
Date: on 09/07/2015 10:43 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


Immolation - The changes as proposed sound like they will still be viable for immolation wizards post change. At least that's what I got from what I read. I'm able to kill things left and right even without training in this build so even tweaked back a bit I can't imagine it still won't be a very effective hunting style. Maybe you'll need to throw down a disabler once in awhile and then immolate the snot out of everything but it still sounds like it will have an effective kill rate. Also, it seems like something that could be easily tweaked a bit if it was found to be ineffective post change.

The lower threshold will be increased, the maximum threshold will be reduced... substantially. Not only reduced substantially, but also implement endroll requirements to obtain the full effect of the immolation critical death.

Not only that, but with the decoupling of the disabler and direct damage attack, we're looking at effectively a 1/2 effectiveness: You'd need to successfully ward with 519 TWICE to reach the same effectiveness as before... ... ... IF the upper tier damage component was remaining the same... but that's being slashed as well. Ohh, and less damage cycles, decreasing its effectiveness against trolls. Even if the damage was relatively low crit tiers, since wizards can't aim, so the only way we're really reliably killing something is through blood loss... or Immo's instant-death.

RapidFire - Even Tav has stated that this spell is a bit OP at zero seconds so I think it's safe to say that we agree that it is broken (see what I did there). There's been a number of suggestions posted but they generally focus on keeping the spell up 100% and keeping the time as close to 0/1 second as possible. I think the GMs have correctly pointed out that we haven't done a great job of suggesting outside of the box alternatives (what can we do instead of pew pew pew 0.5 seconds your are dead that might be workable and fun)? From my personal perspective I'll find this spell much more useful with a 1 seconds RT and no auto-prep feature as a power up spell (the auto-prep made it pretty undesirable for my play style). But I don't rely on this spell for my day to day hunting and as such I am probably not the best advocate for why we should keep it up 100% or what would be an acceptable alternative.

Yes, but instead, again, they're overslashing it. The latest proposal I saw was an increase from 15 mana to 40 mana, a duration cut to 30 seconds, unstackable, with the 1s RT... so that'd be over 5x the mana cost, while simultaneously ALSO being less effective? I can't afford that kind of mana during a hunt... and I don't even use magical bolts! 15 Mana every minute is still expensive for a wizard's hunting style and mana costs, and I still don't see why just swapping the duration to unstackable, and self-cast only wasn't sufficient of a nerf.

Hast

We're on agreement on haste. I just don't really see these changes really addressing the concerns to either offensive or defensive haste nerfs... as it's not AS/DS resolved attacks that wizards ever really need to worry about. They seem to be brushing haste with a large brushstroke, which is going to end up being incredibly detrimental to wizards, who are truly benefiting the least from its effects.


~Whirlin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 607
Author: GOLDENOAK2
Date: on 09/07/2015 10:50 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


>- Ice Patch is slippery, can be made into a mini-iceberg and used like a boat (until it melts). - Earth Patch, you can walk on unsafe areas using it. - Fire Patch, walk across the fire and be cleansed! (or burned to a crisp) - Air Patch, ?

-- Robert


Cabbage Patch - a little ugly animated doll appears and starts dancing distracting all the monsters in the room

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 608
Author: CAELRIC
Date: on 09/07/2015 10:53 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


One disarm puts me in 5-20 seconds of RT, and I'm instantly dead.
At least with haste, I have a chance to grab my weapon before I die.

Not that I want haste nerfs, I want it to stay exactly the same as it is, but this is somewhat of a separate issue with DISARM.

DISARM really needs to be changed to induce some sort of RT and removing the defensive bonus of having a weapon in hand, WITHOUT dropping the weapon. Giving the huge amount of importance many people place on their high end weapons, dropping a weapon is just asking for problems.

Plenty of suggestions have been offered in various forums on how to deal with this, and the standard whine comes from warriors about removing their 'class specialty' Bah. Give me $1000 (many high end weapons trade for much higher than this) and I will gladly be your on call scroll infuser, thus giving up my main characters class specialty.

-Taakhooshi, and Me

For the Story of Taakhooshi: http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Taakhooshi

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 609
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 09/07/2015 11:13 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


Regarding Rapidfire

>> Yes, but instead, again, they're overslashing it. The latest proposal I saw was an increase from 15 mana to 40 mana, a duration cut to 30 seconds, unstackable, with the 1s RT... so that'd be over 5x the mana cost, while simultaneously ALSO being less effective? I can't afford that kind of mana during a hunt... and I don't even use magical bolts! 15 Mana every minute is still expensive for a wizard's hunting style and mana costs, and I still don't see why just swapping the duration to unstackable, and self-cast only wasn't sufficient of a nerf.

Moving it from 15 to 40 seems like a bad deal all around. I'm not entirely sure if Estild was even serious about this but it seems like a lose - lose for everyone in my opinion. I think this was more of a Plan B (Plan Z) alternative vs. the latest proposal but that could be my misread.

So again, not my hunting style, but let's put 100% up-time aside for a moment (we can bring it back in a post or three) and talk about making the spell non-stackable, and 1 second RT, with a no-auto-prep. I used rapidfire in Duskruin because there was a timer but I was still stancing, casting, stancing, reading the result so effectively I had at least 1 second RT for each cast anyway. Even with that, it was pretty devastating overall.

1) The 1 seconds RT just puts some sort of cap on the upper limit so that it's not an arms race with macro effectiveness/internet bandwidth. That seems reasonable and the spell was still devastating (at least for me in Duskruin).

2) We don't want to be one trick ponies but the auto-prep feature sort of forces you into that mode with rapdifire up. Also I think most people agree that 901, 901, 901, 901, 901, 901, 901, 901 DEAD is sort of lame on a few different levels. So the removal of the auto-prep feature allows you to change your game without inducing RT (for release), and without a mana penalty vs. the current spell. This seems like a net gain in versatility and fun to me.

3) I'll grant you that removing the ability to stack this spell is definitely a nerf but it basically gave the spell a free 100% up time for the duration of your hunt (dispels aside). Assuming we agree that there should be some level of cost for mitigating most of your casting RT it doesn't seem an unreasonable requirement to pay 15 mana every 60 seconds or so. If the spell was refreshable vs. having to be recast after it expired that would seem a reasonable trade-off as well (not sure what was actually proposed for this but it seems like a fair trade at this point).

So, setting aside the 100% up time for a post or three (assume 100% up time for this part of the conversation if that helps), what concerns or objections do you have so far? I'd like to understand those before we move on to the up time part of the discussion if we can.

-- Robert

"All wizards are beginners; some of us have just been beginning longer!"

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 610
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 09/07/2015 11:18 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


>So, setting aside the 100% up time for a post or three (assume 100% up time for this part of the conversation if that helps), what concerns or objections do you have so far? I'd like to understand those before we move on to the up time part of the discussion if we can.

The 100% up time IS the issue, because under the attrition-based, unaimed bolt system, it takes 3-4 bolts to achieve the same kill that any other pure can achieve in 1-2 casts. I'd like you to try hunting the second floor of Nelemar (sentries and GWEs only), warcamps, and the Scatter without 100% up time on Rapid Fire and see how that goes. Our concern stems from the fact that the "band-aid" is being removed before a solution is in place.

I'd be fine with self-cast, non-stackable, up to level 30 spell spot for the same 60 second duration. Those should all occur before we start talking about any other nerfs that involve cooldowns and extra mana costs per bolt, when Rapid Fire simply allows a faster expenditure of mana at full mana cost per bolt to get around the bolting problem, without mass CS-based disablers and a CS booster that would make 519 as deadly as 1115 or 317.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 611
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 09/07/2015 11:32 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


>> The 100% up time IS the issue, because under the attrition-based, unaimed bolt system, it takes 3-4 bolts to achieve the same kill that any other pure can achieve in 1-2 casts. I'd like you to try hunting the second floor of Nelemar (sentries and GWEs only), warcamps, and the Scatter without 100% up time on Rapid Fire and see how that goes. Our concern stems from the fact that the "band-aid" is being removed before a solution is in place.

I already hunt sentries on the 2nd floor of Nelemar without using rapid fire at all. That's one reason why I lobbied so hard to keep the immolation disabler in place. It's effective for this. I can hunt GWEs as well (I have on occasion) but since they don't drop boxes, aren't very interesting in general, and have a high percent insta-kill effect (major ewave I guess), I asked for a changes to 520/540 to help with that. I've also hunted warcamps on occasion (grouped) and didn't feel I had any issues without the use of rapid fire. I don't hunt the scatter so can't comment on what the challenges are there or what would be needed to hunt effectively without rapid fire. Given that it is possible to hunt in the other scenarios you presented, if it's not possible in the Scatter then maybe the solution could be something other than 100% rapid fire though?

>> I'd be fine with self-cast, non-stackable, up to level 30 spell spot for the same 60 second duration. Those should all occur before we start talking about any other nerfs that involve cooldowns and extra mana costs per bolt, when Rapid Fire simply allows a faster expenditure of mana at full mana cost per bolt to get around the bolting problem, without mass CS-based disablers and a CS booster that would make 519 as deadly as 1115 or 317.

So for the first part of the conversation (which I'm still on and assumes 100% up time) you'd be fine with the updates as presented?

-- Robert

"All wizards are beginners; some of us have just been beginning longer!"

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 612
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 09/07/2015 11:38 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


>That's one reason why I lobbied so hard to keep the immolation disabler in place. It's effective for this. I can hunt GWEs as well (I have on occasion) but since they don't drop boxes, aren't very interesting in general, and have a high percent insta-kill effect (major ewave I guess), I asked for a changes to 520/540 to help with that. I've also hunted warcamps on occasion (grouped) and didn't feel I had any issues without the use of rapid fire.

I don't consider a single creature CS-based disabler to be effective, particularly when uphunting something like sentries that could require multiple attempts to disable. It basically becomes a much larger gamble as to whether you can disable before you are the one killed (via implosion). I don't consider avoiding GWEs to be a reasonable option as they account for a significant portion of Teras bounty tasks. I'm talking about soloing warcamps, not relying on an MA or group crutch.

>So for the first part of the conversation (which I'm still on and assumes 100% up time) you'd be fine with the updates as presented?

No, because the updates as presented include a cooldown (not 100% up time) and massively increased mana costs per bolt otherwise, that other spells such as 240 aren't forced to suffer from. Why would you settle for mediocrity? Again, these are hurdles that none of the other pures has to face. Perhaps you haven't played any other pures significantly, but I can assure you wizards under the proposed revisions would become the weakest combat pures by far.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 613
Author: THROGG
Date: on 09/07/2015 11:59 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


>> why do questions about who the mystery guy way up the chain at Simu is keep getting ignored? Why is it such a huge secret? <<

It was actually Whatley's mom. Her level 73 empath got pwnd in a PvP fight with a capped wizard, and told her boy they were too powerful and needed to be weakened. Guy's gotta do what his mom says.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 614
Author: GOLDENOAK2
Date: on 09/07/2015 12:56 PM PDT
Subject: HSN: ELR - And all that Jazz


The one thing I don't understand, and that would likely severely decrease the need for rapid fire and some of the other band-aids...why are bolts unaimable? I've heard it said something to the effect they are too powerful to be aimed...but you can aim a claidhmore and get a kill with a result of less than 10...how are any bolts greater than a claidhmore?

If its the RT issue, make aiming bolts have 2 seconds of hard RT as well as the soft RT...problem solved. If the problem is certain bolts might be too powerful, scale the difficulty of aiming to the bolt spell...meaning lightning would be much harder to aim than minor shock, just like a claidhmore is harder to aim than a dagger. If the lower DS against bolts is the issue, how is that different from ambushing DS pushdown?

I have yet to hear any credible reason why bolts are the only unaimable physical (AS Based) attack.

Also instead of keeping rapid fire as the best way to chain cast bolts on a target, make cone of elements work like Mstrike with open cast at however many targets in a room is considered reasonable...or focused strikes against one target. (this is similar to an earlier post today, where someone who suggested an mstrike like ability for rapid fire...but I think cone of elements is better place for the capability)

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 615
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 09/07/2015 01:44 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


>- Just about everyone thinks 100%, 0 second RT was OP so yeah it's getting taken down a notch. How about making some new suggestions if you aren't happy with the current suggestions instead of just whining about it post after post? -Peregrinefalcon

I've made plenty of suggestions like replacing it with Burst Fire that acts like multicast for offensive spells, and some other stuff that's floating around here somewhere. Reading is hard.

>Maybe because it isn't relevant to the discussion? How about we just say it's Kilroy and move on?

Why wouldn't it be relevant? If it wasn't relevant, why mention it in the first place?

>Seriously dude. You have one of the most offensive posting styles of just about anyone on the forums.

Train earth lore and grow thicker skin then or move to Candyland where everything is sugar coated.

>Yup. It did come across that way like... 400 plus posts ago. Since then they indicated that they are making some new changes where war mages should be in good shape (which haven't been shared as of yet). Why not focus on the current issues/items that still need to be addressed instead of rehashing history that isn't relevant any more?

Admittedly, I wasn't able to keep up with most of the past several hundred posts, especially over the weekend so whatever you're referring to I missed. How about a rundown on it since you like to type a lot?

>You people and your "we"... it's been said multiple times that there will an be opportunity to provide feedback once all the releases are announced. Assuming all the devs aren't sick of hearing from wizards completely there will likely be an opportunity to discuss, revisit, and improve in areas that are still lacking.

What do you mean "you people"?

>You aren't happy with how things have been communicated. Noted. Again.

You aren't happy with my posting style. Noted. Again. But still irrelevant.

>Zero seconds of RT (meaning as fast as your macro can shove the commands into the processing queue) doesn't come across as an issue to you? Sure it's fun! Blazing screen scroll, everything's dead, no one knows what happened except you and your macro. It's also a completely lame (read broken) mechanic in a game where RT matters. If fixing this means we can't hunt effectively without it let's identify the additional fixes that are needed as well while we are in the process of making changes.

Remember how earlier in this post you chewed me out for whining instead of posting suggestions, and then later down in the post you made a response to my suggestion for Rapid Fire? Funny how that works. I guess you were too busy being offended to notice.

Moving on to something relevant, casting 3 spells at once with a 3 second cast RT before you can cast again still averages out to 1 second RT. You do know how multicast works right? Apply that to offensive spells. You're not mashing the macro out, and if you are you're gonna see a bunch of "...wait 2 seconds. ...wait 1 second." etc. You still have to wait out the 3 second cast RT before you can cast again. Hence the name changing to Burst Fire.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 616
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 09/07/2015 02:12 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


Is this the same mechanic that is applied to water elementals when you cast 907 on them or is that handled differently?

-- Robert

"All wizards are beginners; some of us have just been beginning longer!"

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 617
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 09/07/2015 02:25 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


>Is this the same mechanic that is applied to water elementals when you cast 907 on them or is that handled differently?

>-- Robert

What happens when you cast 907 at a water elemental? I don't think I've ever done it, just assuming it would say they were immune. Or if I did I don't remember.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 618
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 09/07/2015 02:29 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


>> What happens when you cast 907 at a water elemental? I don't think I've ever done it, just assuming it would say they were immune. Or if I did I don't remember.

There is some messaging about them slowing down. I'll see if I can find a log entry or just run out and cast at one real quick.

-- Robert

"All wizards are beginners; some of us have just been beginning longer!"

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 619
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 09/07/2015 02:31 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


I also forgot to ask...which thing were you referring to when you asked it? The fire/water extra damage combo on stronghold critters?

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 620
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 09/07/2015 02:39 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


I'm wondering if the slowing effect from casting 907 on the water elemental is the same as if you cast 504-slow on the elemental or if it is a different mechanic. So... does the water elemental get 3 seconds of RT up front when 907 does this now?

Direct cast of 507 on the elemental:

The water elemental seems to slow down while absorbing the freezing energy! The freezing ball of pure cold strikes a water elemental, blossoming into a much larger sphere of frost upon impact. The water elemental seems to slow down while absorbing the freezing energy!

Splash effect from 507 on the elemental:

A burst of frost from your freezing ball of pure cold flies off and hits a water elemental. The water elemental seems to slow down while absorbing the freezing energy!


Also as a bonus question, if it is a different mechanic, do the slow effects stack (notice how the direct cast had a slowing effect message and then a 2nd slowing effect message).

-- Robert

"All wizards are beginners; some of us have just been beginning longer!"

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 621
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 09/07/2015 02:47 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


What happens if you cast fire on it after? I'm not home or I could just log in and see.

WTB Wizard FE and Lich for iOS.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 622
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 09/07/2015 02:59 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Slow (504) Updated!


Major Fire is already very effective on them (it's my go to spell for water elementals). I don't believe there is any additional effect from casting the cold first. The cold just seems to slow them down. Cast Major cold on the dissembler (or whatever) in the room to stun it and splash slow the elemental. Then switch to major fire to damage everything including the elemental. Major fire is more effect on water elementals over minor fire because it does such a large amount of splash damage.

Most the time, one on one, I don't bother with slowing them since they die reasonably quickly with major fire.

-- Robert

"All wizards are beginners; some of us have just been beginning longer!"

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 623
Author: ASPEN
Date: on 09/07/2015 05:13 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


>That one is pretty simple for me.


>I have no haste running, I'm hunting minotaurs.

>One disarm puts me in 5-20 seconds of RT, and I'm instantly dead.

>At least with haste, I have a chance to grab my weapon before I die.

>I feel Warmages are "glass cannons" that can dish out damage, but die instantly if things go wrong.

>RT issues become more and more dangerous the higher level you get.

>In OTF, Ithzir can fade in with a leg sweep or disarm. Griffins can swoop in for additional RT.

>Having Haste running, for a Warmage, becomes a NEED, not a WANT as you get to cap.

Never really hunted minotaurs, because they were too young for me when they were implemented.

You know what to do about sweep and disarm? Train in CM, and get ranks in them. It sucks, it is expensive, but that is what you have to do. Malok (original) had a saying, as he would drag yet another dead dark elf out of the rift, he'd rather be weaker offensively but not die, than have a super strong offense. He was speaking as a giantman sorcerer, when anything that wasn't a dark elf was rare. It may mean you can triple in spells less, but get that CM training.

Griffin head swats are annoying, training in PF helps, here is of course where clerics and empaths especially have an advantage.

Griffin screeches are fear based, so here again the spiritualists have an advantage, but if you can find bravery, heroism, and dauntless, they help. 613 I believe helps a little too, as does DIS bonus.

Haste really isn't necessary. Maybe its because I had so much experience hunting sorcerers and empaths that when it came time to hunt my wizards (over 200 aggregate levels worth, by the way) I never used haste. I hunt them all the same way, just swapping out the offensive spells.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 624
Author: ASPEN
Date: on 09/07/2015 05:17 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


>I'm talking about soloing warcamps, not relying on an MA or group crutch.

People do that? I am afraid of doing that.

OR are you talking about just hunting until fried by the entrance? Okay thats doable, but going all the way in? No thank you.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 625
Author: ERYKK2
Date: on 09/07/2015 06:00 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


Never really hunted minotaurs, because they were too young for me when they were implemented.
You know what to do about sweep and disarm? Train in CM, and get ranks in them. It sucks, it is expensive, but that is what you have to do. Malok (original) had a saying, as he would drag yet another dead dark elf out of the rift, he'd rather be weaker offensively but not die, than have a super strong offense. He was speaking as a giantman sorcerer, when anything that wasn't a dark elf was rare. It may mean you can triple in spells less, but get that CM training.
Griffin head swats are annoying, training in PF helps, here is of course where clerics and empaths especially have an advantage.
Haste really isn't necessary. Maybe its because I had so much experience hunting sorcerers and empaths that when it came time to hunt my wizards (over 200 aggregate levels worth, by the way) I never used haste. I hunt them all the same way, just swapping out the offensive spells.

I have CM ranks, I'm fully 1x.

I'm going to assume you've never actually tried it, because even trained in those skills, you still get hit with them. I believe you're aware of the open rolls, that seem to only exist in CMANs as far as combat goes.

Griffin screeches are fear based, so here again the spiritualists have an advantage, but if you can find bravery, heroism, and dauntless, they help. 613 I believe helps a little too, as does DIS bonus.

These are easy for you, because you're a Sorcerer, you have an easy supply that you can refresh with little effort. Wizards on the other hand, don't have it so easy. MR 211/215/1606/613 is extremely rare, and exceedingly difficult to recharge.

What do Wizards get instead to help? 506. I shouldn't lose that defensive ability.

Haste really isn't necessary.

Simply put, I disagree.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 626
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 09/07/2015 07:27 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


>> >I'm talking about soloing warcamps, not relying on an MA or group crutch.

>> People do that? I am afraid of doing that.

>> OR are you talking about just hunting until fried by the entrance? Okay thats doable, but going all the way in? No thank you.

I've mastered GOS on two characters and neither up them would be up to the task solo (the warrior could do it maybe but there would still be a few deaths along the way). They both do warcamps with a partner. Faulkil isn't even in GOS so the only time he warcamps is in a group. I don't consider it a crutch though, I think warcamps are meant to be a group activity.

-- Robert

"All wizards are beginners; some of us have just been beginning longer!"

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 627
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 09/07/2015 07:45 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


>I've mastered GOS on two characters and neither up them would be up to the task solo (the warrior could do it maybe but there would still be a few deaths along the way).

I disagree. All the other pure and semi professions can do this.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 628
Author: ASPEN
Date: on 09/08/2015 05:39 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


>I'm going to assume you've never actually tried it, because even trained in those skills, you still get hit with them. I believe you're aware of the open rolls, that seem to only exist in CMANs as far as combat goes.

Umm, no, I take defensive physical skill train very seriously, all my guys have em.

And yes, open rolls, did you want 100% immunity forever? Maybe if Staples buys Simutronics you'll get an easy button. At some point there has to be something your vulnerable against, for wizards and sorcerers it is maneuvers.

>These are easy for you, because you're a Sorcerer, you have an easy supply that you can refresh with little effort. Wizards on the other hand, don't have it so easy. MR 211/215/1606/613 is extremely rare, and exceedingly difficult to recharge.

Well you're a wizard, you're sitting there with enchanted armor whereas I'm not allowed to have it because I can't cast 925. Oh wait, you say I could pay a wizard to enchant for me? Huh... after all these years I didn't know that....

  • charge item does need a tweak to make it a little easier to use.



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 629
Author: ASPEN
Date: on 09/08/2015 05:43 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


>I think warcamps are meant to be a group activity.

Ya, I agree.

>I disagree. All the other pure and semi professions can do this.

Who? And lets be clear, you're not talking about going in, killing 10 things, and leaving, but going and killing hundreds of things to get loot or raze it or whatever? If someone does that solo I'm very impressed.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 630
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 09/08/2015 06:04 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


>If someone does that solo I'm very impressed.

Of course people do this. All the time.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 631
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 09/08/2015 06:22 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


>Malok (original) had a saying, as he would drag yet another dead dark elf out of the rift, he'd rather be weaker offensively but not die, than have a super strong offense.

That's easy for him to say when his CS was like 1200 by the time he sold out. :P

>stuff about warcamps

I wish there was some way to be able to do "old" warcamps if you wanted. By old, I mean swarms like crazy even solo.

That was fun. Now they're boring. And that makes me sad.

Like this: :(

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 632
Author: ASPEN
Date: on 09/08/2015 06:52 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


Oh they made warcamps easier did they? Didn't know that.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 633
Author: DRUMPEL
Date: on 09/08/2015 08:12 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


Can we get Stone Skin to protect against all forms of physical attack (maneuver and AS/DS) that hit the body? It's very annoying to catch a maneuver that does minor damage (5-10 damange), but creates a 2nd rank wound (broken limb, gash in neck, and so on) to leave you stunned for multiple rounds.

Can it be possible to reduce the severity of the wound inflicted and the duration of the stun?

There's nothing more fun to be charged and to dodge most of it, only to get a glancing blow on the neck for 10 points of damage, bleed 10/round and stunned for 2 rounds.

Thankfully I was in defensive stance when I walked into the room and was immediately meet with a charging minotaur before I could even react to his presence.....I was able to defend off his mstrike attempt with a high enough DS. I had to leave the area immediately after just getting there.

It just suckes that my stone skin provided no protection against the maneuver even though I've got 63 ranks in MjE spells and 124 ranks in EL:E. and the fact it's a type physical form of attack.

Please fix it. Right now it's kind of pointless to wear the spell. I don't take hits from other attacks unless I get caught in a maneuver and I'm knocked down or stunned while in offensive and the reactive flare from taking a hit(s) isn't going to save me or help at all.

-Drumpel

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 634
Author: MDEVEAU
Date: on 09/08/2015 10:48 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


How is it that 430 gets a ELR update with crit padding and 520 which by description forms a layer of hard stone that shifts with his/her movement get a reactive flare? o.O???

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 635
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/08/2015 11:56 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


Yeah I was just putting that in the 430 thread. Seems super weird. Stone skin doesn't strike me as very flare-y and barrier acting as a crit padding is equally bizarre. Probably has more to do with the classes that have the spell available rather than making any kind of logical sense.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 636
Author: ERYKK2
Date: on 09/08/2015 05:05 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


>I'm going to assume you've never actually tried it, because even trained in those skills, you still get hit with them. I believe you're aware of the open rolls, that seem to only exist in CMANs as far as combat goes.
Umm, no, I take defensive physical skill train very seriously, all my guys have em.
And yes, open rolls, did you want 100% immunity forever? Maybe if Staples buys Simutronics you'll get an easy button. At some point there has to be something your vulnerable against, for wizards and sorcerers it is maneuvers.

The only thing a Wizard is not vulnerable to is DS. On top of maneuvers, I get one shotted by Dogmatists and their CS spell. 108 endroll produced an 8 round stun and 138 damage. Exactly how many things is each profession supposed to be vulnerable to? Wizards don't have the same ability as Sorcerers to spell tank because 714 provides so much utility to provide outside spells.

>These are easy for you, because you're a Sorcerer, you have an easy supply that you can refresh with little effort. Wizards on the other hand, don't have it so easy. MR 211/215/1606/613 is extremely rare, and exceedingly difficult to recharge.
Well you're a wizard, you're sitting there with enchanted armor whereas I'm not allowed to have it because I can't cast 925. Oh wait, you say I could pay a wizard to enchant for me? Huh... after all these years I didn't know that....
*charge item does need a tweak to make it a little easier to use.

Enchant is provided in so many different ways, you can pay a player, you can use PP's, it's offered via merchants. The same can't be said for scrolls. I have tried to find Sorcerers to infuse scrolls, when I actually find a decent one. There are very few people who will actually infuse for someone. No where near the amount of people who will enchant for you. If you can't find a Wizard to enchant for you, you have other options. If I can't find a Sorcerer to infuse for me, I have no other options.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 637
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/08/2015 05:18 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


People often forget that wizards have trouble with Spiritual CS attacks, and Clerics with Elemental. Beyond that, enchant does nothing for TD. Ensorcell certainly does, however.

A pure's weakness is not AS/DS unless other forms of attack are used to bring them to that point. CS/TD is the next easiest to solve for pures, and some have an advantage there, but all pures are universally weak to maneuvers. Some bring more to the table to defend against it than others with Empaths clearly leading the way (3x Physical Training, can wear heavy armor due to low hindrance, can cast through injuries, Rejuvenation, etc), but i'd say Haste puts wizards clearly in 2nd place. The only problem is ...yeah, that's subject to change.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 638
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 09/08/2015 05:29 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


>> >I've mastered GOS on two characters and neither up them would be up to the task solo (the warrior could do it maybe but there would still be a few deaths along the way).

>> I disagree. All the other pure and semi professions can do this.

I'll just take your word for it and move on since it seems the original discussion is dead.

-- Robert

"All wizards are beginners; some of us have just been beginning longer!"

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 640
Author: THROGG
Date: on 09/08/2015 05:45 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


>>Some bring more to the table to defend against it than others with Empaths clearly leading the way (3x Physical Training, can wear heavy armor due to low hindrance, can cast through injuries, Rejuvenation, etc), but i'd say Haste puts wizards clearly in 2nd place. <<

Unfortunately not quite true. Empaths are good, and rejuv has saved my gal's hide more than once, but clerics have Soul Ward, aka the "Get Out of Death Free" card. Having maneuver induced RT dropped from say, 9 seconds to 5 seconds is good, but doesn't quite compare with not getting hit in the first place.

You could even argue that with cloak of retribution set to fire off spell 130, even sorcerers are better off than wizards. I'd probably rate them close to tied, myself.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 641
Author: ASPEN
Date: on 09/08/2015 05:59 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


>You could even argue that with cloak of retribution set to fire off spell 130, even sorcerers are better off than wizards. I'd probably rate them close to tied, myself.

Does it count that you escape a maneuver only to die by the retribution from using 130 with cloak of shadows?

For those who've not experienced it, cloak of shadows retribution is like self casting DC. It hurts, bad.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 642
Author: ARIETTA
Date: on 09/08/2015 06:43 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


>>Does it count that you escape a maneuver only to die by the retribution from using 130 with cloak of shadows?>>>

Yes. The only consolation is, at least you'll be dead someplace where it's easier to find whatever's left of your body. For that reason, however, I usually prefer to set retribution to something offensive and hope for the best.

~ GtG (and minions)

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 643
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/08/2015 07:13 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


Cloak of Shadows only activated on a successful AS/DS resolution. It doesn't help if you're hit by maneuvers.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 646
Author: THROGG
Date: on 09/08/2015 09:25 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


Demonology ranks should help lessen the adverse effects of using 130 in your cloak, if I recall. Wizards can use 506 far earlier than sorcerers can use cloak/130 combination. I didn't want to get into the nitty gritty details, which is why I said I considered it more or less a toss up between the two. It doesn't matter which one of the two is better off in the end, my point was that both clerics and empaths come out ahead of either one.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 647
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 09/09/2015 10:00 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


"- Ice Patch is slippery, can be made into a mini-iceberg and used like a boat (until it melts). - Earth Patch, you can walk on unsafe areas using it. - Fire Patch, walk across the fire and be cleansed! (or burned to a crisp) - Air Patch, ? " -- PeregrineFalcon

With enough ranks of Spirit Lore, do you get Soul Patch?

'

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 648
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 09/09/2015 10:24 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Ice Patch (512) Updated!


>"- Ice Patch is slippery, can be made into a mini-iceberg and used like a boat (until it melts). -- PeregrineFalcon

I want to summon an iceberg boat so I don't have to deal with the Glaesen Star.

In Soviet Titanic, iceberg hits you!

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 649
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 09/09/2015 10:57 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


">> why do questions about who the mystery guy way up the chain at Simu is keep getting ignored? Why is it such a huge secret?" -- Throgg, quoting without attribution

Why is it that customers here think they have the right to know?

Can anyone--absolutely anyone--name the executive that was pushing the new recipe for Coke? (No fair Google-searching for it...)

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 650
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/09/2015 11:50 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


Well, I for one, wonder if this top-down decision is made from a position of ignorance. Because it certainly seems that way. Little justification has been provided in how wizards are so OP as to require all three of their legs kicked out at once. I certainly see much move overpowered abilities in other classes being left alone, so I wonder what the hell is going on.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 651
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 09/10/2015 06:07 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


>Why is it that customers here think they have the right to know?

Why is it that you think you have the right to know why you think I think we have the right to know?

I never said anything about rights. But it would still be nice to know, because to my knowledge, the only person above Wyrom and Solomon is Dave Whatley, who's been all caught up in other games and probably hasn't even thought about GS in years. Which if that's the case, I'm interested in how he came to the conclusion that combat is suddenly too fast. It'd be like the CEO of a record company telling his underlings that disco is what they need to focus on putting out.

>Can anyone--absolutely anyone--name the executive that was pushing the new recipe for Coke? (No fair Google-searching for it...)

Ah, Coke. What an appropriately ironic example you chose to use.

Hey wait, are you saying this mystery guy is wanting to make GS the equivalent of new Coke?

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 652
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 09/10/2015 06:40 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


No, I'm saying corporate procedures are no-wise part of what the customer-on-the-street has any business inquiring after.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 653
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 09/10/2015 06:45 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


I've been giving some thought to the reactive flares update for a few days now and the more I think about it the more I think this needs to be given similar consideration as 507 was given (assuming the idea is that this update should be a net benefit to the players).

On a typical hunt I get hit somewhere between 0-5 times (my hunts tend to be longer than necessary to accomplish whatever task I've set out on because that's how I play). During that same time period, I'm probably hitting critters at least 90 time (30 critters, 3x per critter, it may be a bit higher than this but its close enough for my example).

So assuming that whatever I am hunting has reactive flares (and the critter is .5x trained in the appropriate lores) then: - I get about 0-5 chances to kick off a reactive flare (which I would still argue isn't very defensive). - I have about 90 chances to have a reactive flare fire off in my face while I am in full offensive (when bolting). - The critters will also have a higher chance of their reactive flares going off due to being .5x trained in lores (obviously this may not be the case for some individuals that focus on earth lore).

The above would also apply to non-wizard characters hunting these critters as well and would be most detrimental to AS based hunters due to being in full offensive when the flares fire off.

So assuming some critters do actually cast 520 I think I would much rather see a true defensive benefit from this spell vs. the current reactive flares or a simple statement that this specific release is primarily intended to make critters more challenging and not intended to be a net benefit to players.

Jut my 2 silvers worth.

-- Robert

The ELR will never end! VIVE LA ELR! ~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 654
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 09/10/2015 09:00 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


> No, I'm saying corporate procedures are no-wise part of what the customer-on-the-street has any business inquiring after.

Well I mean they were the ones that told us about it in the first place.

"Hey guys, someone really high up the chain at Simu, even above Wyrom and Solomon, says that combat is too fast and needs to be slowed down. What? You want to know who that person is? Just who do you think you are asking questions like that!?!?"

Seems legit to me.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 655
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 09/10/2015 09:05 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


Pfizer just announced that Viagra gives an erection too quickly, and they want to slow it down. The Patriots just announced that Gronk runs too fast, and they want to slow him down. Yugo just announced that their vehicles accelerate too quickly, and they want to slow them down.

Which of their people put that forward? Do we as consumers have anything to say about it?

People, it's a corporation. It's a business.

We're customers.


We have diddly-jack to say about how they do things. We have NO RIGHTS to inquire about how they operate.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 657
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 09/10/2015 09:13 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


>> Yugo just announced that their vehicles accelerate too quickly, and they want to slow them down.

Wait... Yugo's can accelerate?

-- Robert

The ELR will never end! VIVE LA ELR! ~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 658
Author: SHAYD11
Date: on 09/10/2015 09:14 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


>We have diddly-jack to say about how they do things. We have NO RIGHTS to inquire about how they operate.

That's just silly and I want to agree with you. Wait, thats not quite true. I want to disagree with them but I cant here. No right to inquire about how a company operates, a company you give your money to? Of course they have the right to inquire.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 659
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 09/10/2015 09:16 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


>Pfizer just announced that Viagra gives an erection too quickly, and they want to slow it down.

Most likely for safety reasons.

>The Patriots just announced that Gronk runs too fast, and they want to slow him down.

Uhh...ok.

>Yugo just announced that their vehicles accelerate too quickly, and they want to slow them down.

Nice try. Everyone knows Yugo's can't accelerate.

>Which of their people put that forward? Do we as consumers have anything to say about it?

They probably would explain the reason for it so it would make sense to the people that are paying for their product.

How about if McDonald's said they were removing the meat from all their items. What do you think would be the first thing customers would start asking?

>People, it's a corporation. It's a business.

>We're customers.

Even more reason to either not blurt out some statement like that in the middle of some pretty big nerfs at all, since there's only one person above them that we know of, and said person hasn't exactly had anything to do with GS in years other than using its revenue to fund other stuff.

>We have diddly-jack to say about how they do things. We have NO RIGHTS to inquire about how they operate.

Sure we do. They might not be obligated to answer it and keep looking shady over it, but we still have the right to ask.

I'll just come out and say it. I think the "someone above Wyrom and Solomon wants combat slowed down" thing was a dishonest statement. Please don't send the gestapo after me.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 660
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 09/10/2015 09:18 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Thurfel's Ward (503) Updated!


This is now off topic. If you're interested in knowing how Simutronics runs their business or their corporate hierarchy, you can post about it in the Simutronics forum ( http://forums.play.net/forums/Simutronics/view ). Further posts on this topic will be hidden.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 661
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/11/2015 10:17 AM PDT
Subject: HSN: ELR - Mana Leech (516) Updated!


Hi everybody!

I typed out a whole bunch of stuff, but then a misclick caused me to close the window and lose it all. Now I'm sad, there may or may not be some tears, and all of you are jumping for joy because you don't have to listen to me ramble.

MECHANICS

Mana Leech now has a percentage chance equal to (Ranks in Elemental Lore, Water, Seed 2) to add an additional 20 mana to the amount drained from the target each time it is cast.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 662
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 09/11/2015 10:25 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Mana Leech (516) Updated!


While I'm sure the Water Lore is feeling the love...

...wouldn't this make a HELL of a lot more sense to be in Mana Control ranks?

.

.

And, on a separate topic: same-same lovin' for Unravel still to be unveiled, correct?

(Also, sensibly connected to Mana Control, rather than Lore. Seriously, we're talking about, I don't know, controlling the sucking out of mana from the target....)

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 663
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/11/2015 10:33 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Mana Leech (516) Updated!


> ...wouldn't this make a HELL of a lot more sense to be in Mana Control ranks?

It would, but Elemental Mana Control already increased the amount of mana that is drained from a target each cast.  :)

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 664
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 09/11/2015 10:40 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Mana Leech (516) Updated!


Okay, you've convinced me.

.

Now, about that same-same lovin' for Unravel/1013....

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 665
Author: TANDL
Date: on 09/11/2015 10:54 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Mana Leech (516) Updated!


Hey now, some of us actually find a good bit of humor in your ramblings!

Tal.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 666
Author: ERYKK2
Date: on 09/11/2015 10:57 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Mana Leech (516) Updated!


Okay, you've convinced me.
.
Now, about that same-same lovin' for Unravel/1013....

You might have missed it but they've already said there will be no Bard spell changes during ELR.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 667
Author: ARIETTA
Date: on 09/11/2015 11:03 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Mana Leech (516) Updated!


>>Mana Leech now has a percentage chance equal to (Ranks in Elemental Lore, Water, Seed 2) to add an additional 20 mana to the amount drained from the target each time it is cast.>>>

Now that's a pretty significant boost for water lore! Thanks for the update!  :)

~ GtG

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 668
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/11/2015 11:07 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Mana Leech (516) Updated!


Yeah, this one's a good one, and on a spell I use regularly to boot.

Questions, just for complete info:

Can the +20 take you over your Spell Ranks (doubt it matters except in corner cases but just asking)

Does the +20 still eat up your allowed drain for cooldown?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 669
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/11/2015 11:10 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Mana Leech (516) Updated!


Good questions!

> Can the +20 take you over your Spell Ranks (doubt it matters except in corner cases but just asking)

Why yes it can!

> Does the +20 still eat up your allowed drain for cooldown?

Also a yes on this one.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 670
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/11/2015 11:12 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Mana Leech (516) Updated!


> Hey now, some of us actually find a good bit of humor in your ramblings!

Thank you! It's nice to hear (Seriously, yay!). I'll try and keep it up, but sometimes you just run out of stuff to ramble about...

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 671
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/11/2015 11:14 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Mana Leech (516) Updated!


Ok. Based on the lore target I'm planning for water, probably 1-3 extra points of mana per drain, on average. That doesn't seem like much except it really does add up.

I guess one last question, probably obvious but meh, is the 20 mana created by the lore effect, or does it still have to come from the creature?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 672
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/11/2015 11:15 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Mana Leech (516) Updated!


> I guess one last question, probably obvious but meh, is the 20 mana created by the lore effect, or does it still have to come from the creature?

Never hurts to ask! The mana does actually have to come from the creature.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 673
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/11/2015 11:16 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Mana Leech (516) Updated!


>> Never hurts to ask! The mana does actually have to come from the creature.

Thanks. Bad (for me) when hunting low mana creatures, but actually good when hunting higher mana, if you can deplete them.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 675
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 09/11/2015 11:42 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Mana Leech (516) Updated!


>It would, but Elemental Mana Control already increased the amount of mana that is drained from a target each cast. :)

From gswiki: Major Elemental spell ranks determine the maximum amount of mana that can be leeched on the first cast. Harness Power determines the maximum mana a player can leech in a session before having to rest. Elemental Mana Control determines how quickly a player recovers from use of the spell.

While I have no idea what this has to do with water, it's still a decent buff for low level wizards.

Does the extra 20 mana still count towards the cooldown? Like if you can leech 100 mana before your cooldown is maxed and you can't leech anymore, does that 20 mana proc count toward that?

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 676
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/11/2015 11:47 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Mana Leech (516) Updated!


> Does the extra 20 mana still count towards the cooldown?

Yep. It still counts towards the cooldown.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 677
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/11/2015 12:02 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Mana Leech (516) Updated!


If the amount before cooldown hasn't changed, can someone explain to me what you're really getting? I guess more mana from that specific cast, but if it just puts you up against the max earlier, I'm not sure that's much of a benefit. Am I wrong about that? Do you bolt-slingers usually come up against your leech cap?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 678
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 09/11/2015 12:18 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Mana Leech (516) Updated!


Would you rather get back 10 mana that you can use in your war against the beasties, or 10 now with bonus +20 mana that you can then use in your war against the beasties?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 679
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 09/11/2015 12:23 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Mana Leech (516) Updated!


>> Am I wrong about that? Do you bolt-slingers usually come up against your leech cap?

I do if I'm out hunting for 30-45 minutes. Generally running out of mana isn't what brings me in though. The lore update is a minor benefit to be able to get additional mana on a single cast which is about what I would expect. Frankly, Mana Leech is a pretty awesome spell even without this enhancement.

>> Elemental Mana Control already increased the amount of mana that is drained from a target each cast. :) ~Konacon

You answered my other questions already (and thanks for the update by the way!) but I am curious where EMC plays a role? I've always seen results tied to training in MjE Ranks (which provides the max cap for mana that can be leeched in one cast). Does it help pull in more mana on the low warding rolls which sometime result in less than max mana result?

Thanks!

-- Robert

The ELR will never end! VIVE LA ELR! ~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 680
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/11/2015 12:26 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Mana Leech (516) Updated!


> Does it help pull in more mana on the low warding rolls which sometime result in less than max mana result?

Yes it does.  :)

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 681
Author: DOUG
Date: on 09/11/2015 12:30 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Mana Leech (516) Updated!


>>Yes it does. :)

Ok, I'll bite - I thought the only thing EMC helped with was the recovery pace for Leech. So it seems I have a bit to learn here. Help me out. . .

What is the formula for calculating the mana returned via Leech?

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 682
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/11/2015 12:40 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Mana Leech (516) Updated!


> What is the formula for calculating the mana returned via Leech?

NO! That formula is mine!

Okay, since you asked nicely, I'll tell you.

- (1/3 warding success) + (MjE ranks / 5) + (EMC Skill / 10) - Cap the value at total MjE ranks. - Finally, add 20 if the caster passes the water lore check.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 683
Author: GS4-AULIS
Date: on 09/11/2015 12:42 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Mana Leech (516) Updated!


>>If the amount before cooldown hasn't changed, can someone explain to me what you're really getting? I guess more mana from that specific cast, but if it just puts you up against the max earlier, I'm not sure that's much of a benefit. Am I wrong about that? Do you bolt-slingers usually come up against your leech cap?

From my understanding it helps you leech out the mana from the creature faster. For example, say a creature has 120 mana total. If you normally only can leech out 20 mana from that creature then it is going to take 6 casts and 18 seconds of time spent in front of the creature just to take all of its mana. And with the new change it'd only take 4 casts. Which in turns potentially lessens the amount of time spent in greater danger in front of said creature; especially if they are trying to cast really deadly spells at you.


~Aulis Forums Manager QC'er

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 684
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 09/11/2015 12:45 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Mana Leech (516) Updated!


Except didn't a GM just say (somewhere else, when something got said about Leeched mana) that the mana pool from which Leech is done, has absolutely nothing to do with creatures casting?

And a couple of people--I know, because I are one--said that that was pretty frickin' ridiculous, that we can suck them dry of mana yet they continue to cast away.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 685
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 09/11/2015 01:07 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Mana Leech (516) Updated!


Aulis
From my understanding it helps you leech out the mana from the creature faster. For example, say a creature has 120 mana total. If you normally only can leech out 20 mana from that creature then it is going to take 6 casts and 18 seconds of time spent in front of the creature just to take all of its mana. And with the new change it'd only take 4 casts. Which in turns potentially lessens the amount of time spent in greater danger in front of said creature; especially if they are trying to cast really deadly spells at you.

This is exactly correct. The benefit is intended as a faster way to gain the maximum mana, but not more mana than originally possible. Due to needing less casts to get the maximum result, it also means less chance of being warded and not only getting no mana back, but 516 actually costing you 16 mana due to the failed attempt.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 686
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/11/2015 01:17 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Mana Leech (516) Updated!


Yeah, overall this doesn't drastically change the spell, but it's a nice bonus, and combining with the Shock changes may help round out an Air/Water build (since 910 is mana heavy)

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 687
Author: DRAFIX
Date: on 09/11/2015 01:19 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Mana Leech (516) Updated!


Hi everybody!
I typed out a whole bunch of stuff, but then a misclick caused me to close the window and lose it all. Now I'm sad, there may or may not be some tears, and all of you are jumping for joy because you don't have to listen to me ramble.

Don't worry, we've all done that before *pat pat* there there...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 688
Author: TANDL
Date: on 09/11/2015 01:25 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Mana Leech (516) Updated!


Krakii, that statement is false for most spells cast by creatures (there are exceptions where some 'spells' critters do aren't actual spells, even if they resemble it).

Tal.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 689
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 09/11/2015 01:34 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Mana Leech (516) Updated!


Which statement?

My belief that a GM made the comment? (Normally I don't mind searching, but given the traffic in the last 3+ weeks...)

Or the GMS, that spellcasting critters keep casting even if we have reduced them to 0 mana?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 690
Author: COSTELLOK
Date: on 09/11/2015 01:39 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Mana Leech (516) Updated!


Also, wouldn't more mana per leech indirectly translate into more mana overall, just from spending less mana on 516 itself? Or does the mana cost not work that way?



Fyonn's player

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 691
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/11/2015 01:42 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Mana Leech (516) Updated!


>> Also, wouldn't more mana per leech indirectly translate into more mana overall, just from spending less mana on 516 itself? Or does the mana cost not work that way?

Yes.. but with the cost of a successful leech being only 1, it's a very small factor. Greater than 0 but not by much, unless as Estild mentioned you're having trouble warding, then it only helps (but it's really dangerous to leech things you can't reliably ward anyway).

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 692
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 09/11/2015 01:49 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Mana Leech (516) Updated!


>Yep. It still counts towards the cooldown.

This is disappointing. But still good for low level wizards.

Which makes me wonder...what happens if the bonus flares, but that 20 mana would have put you over?

Like if you can leech 100 mana before your cooldown maxes, you've currently leeched 70, you leech another 30 on your next cast and the +20 thing flares too, which would put you at 120.

What happens then?

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 693
Author: COSTELLOK
Date: on 09/11/2015 01:51 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Mana Leech (516) Updated!


Thanks. Guess it makes sense that you don't really rely on 516 much until there's not much chance it's warded.

Apologies for not thinking before posting!


Fyonn's player

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 694
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 09/11/2015 01:53 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Mana Leech (516) Updated!


>Okay, since you asked nicely, I'll tell you.

>- (1/3 warding success) + (MjE ranks / 5) + (EMC Skill / 10)

I always wondered this. Thanks.

>My belief that a GM made the comment? (Normally I don't mind searching, but given the traffic in the last 3+ weeks...)

>Or the GMS, that spellcasting critters keep casting even if we have reduced them to 0 mana? -Krakii

If a GM said that, then I'm 99.9999% sure he was wrong. Whenever I drain a caster's mana, they start swinging at me.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 695
Author: DOUG
Date: on 09/11/2015 02:14 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Mana Leech (516) Updated!


>>And with the new change it'd only take 4 casts.

and . . .

>>This is exactly correct.

I think I like the change (and thanks for the formula! I'll be adding that to the wiki, if I'm not beat out by another.) But I do want to be sure this isn't misunderstood.

It probably should be amended to read 'with the new change, it could only take 4 casts', depending on if the water lore ranks seed kicks in.

Even if a wizard is devoted entirely to the water lore path, that chance of the seed kicking in is in most cases less than 20%. For any wizard who follows a path of balance - 8% chance.

Nothing to sneeze at, though!

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 696
Author: DOUG
Date: on 09/11/2015 02:16 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Mana Leech (516) Updated!


>>if I'm not beat out by another.

Heh. And Vanessa wins!

Again. . .

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 697
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 09/11/2015 02:19 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Mana Leech (516) Updated!


>Heh. And Vanessa wins!

nope. not me.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 698
Author: DOUG
Date: on 09/11/2015 02:22 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Mana Leech (516) Updated!


>>nope. not me.

Ahh, yep, sorry Drafix!

But you gotta admit, Vanessa, you're pretty quick on the draw too!

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 699
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 09/11/2015 02:56 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Mana Leech (516) Updated!


>But you gotta admit, Vanessa, you're pretty quick on the draw too!

I put in an 8 character tag that puts it on my to do list to review. It doesn't take so long :)

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 700
Author: DAID
Date: on 09/11/2015 03:13 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Mana Leech (516) Updated!


Figured this was just the place for a good rambling considering these posts...

>> Hey now, some of us actually find a good bit of humor in your ramblings!

>Thank you! It's nice to hear (Seriously, yay!). I'll try and keep it up, but sometimes you just run out of stuff to ramble about...

and

>While I'm sure the Water Lore is feeling the love...

>...wouldn't this make a HELL of a lot more sense to be in Mana Control ranks?


Did you ever wonder WHAT IS MANA? Or maybe you got sick of fumbling with Hermitian matrices when trying to leech the last drop of mana from a target. Fear not, all mysteries will be explained, and all tricks made clear (insert quote from The Illusionist)! Mana is a quantized information fluid; that's useful not only because it can be counted discretely, but because it flows LIKE WATER. Mana Leech operates like an operator on the mana waves, and is thus not commutable; for normal people, we just say, "If I can have it over here, you can't have it over there!" Think of it like a piston pushing a quantum liquid from one place to another. Once we started thinking of information theory as a quantized liquid, it was obvious to consider how hydrodynamics might help solve this issue, though we apologize for the spoiler regarding Mana Focus (418) and the lack of clarity for this mechanism. We have now gone on the backend of our computers which have 4 TB of RAM and made a sophisticated code which enables Laminar Flow for calculations to attain that delicious liquid you call mana from others, but our implementation turned out depends on your dedication to the lore of liquids (also known as TRAIN MORE WATER LORE).

As long as you don't hate analogies, I think the physics is about right.


Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog

>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 701
Author: DAID
Date: on 09/11/2015 03:15 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Mana Leech (516) Updated!


Darn, I forgot my postscript.

Your character doesn't know quantum physics, just like they don't know Aelotoi were genetically engineered. But, it's still out there!


Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog

>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 702
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/11/2015 03:16 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Mana Leech (516) Updated!


With the mechanics of how mana leech is ultimately limited I think the 418 change ends up actually being the better boost to sustainability. Especially if you use a manatimer and can cast it right before a pulse, negating the initial cost.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 703
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/11/2015 03:32 PM PDT
Subject: My case for perma-haste


I think the plan to remove haste as a defensive spell for capped wizards is misguided. Stuns have been marginalized for the other classes through 1150, 1040, 319 (kind of a panacea, but whatever), 712, and armor/redux/cmans. Wizards are really the only remaining class where a stun is almost certainly a death-sentence.

I'm happy with that as long as we are the class where RT isn't certain death. Squares get better avoidance rolls but the other classes are vulnerable to RT the way wizards are to stuns. This seems like a nice dichotomy where things are different but balanced.

Turning 950 into another get-out-of-stun-free card and removing wizard RT protection is just another step towards total homogenization. I, for one, don't think that's a great direction for the game to be heading. Especially since the current plan was for 950 to be limited-use when all these other stun escapes are not. Also worth mentioning, it wouldn't even free us from the stun, but basically let us (partially? depending on length) wait it out with the critter frozen for 20sec. This is clearly worse than the other stun escapes.

I'm probably spitting into the wind but I thought it was worth stating my opinion.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 704
Author: THROGG
Date: on 09/11/2015 06:54 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Mana Leech (516) Updated!


Creatures casting actual spells do use mana. I have seen creatures take nerve damage because they had prepped a spell, then cast it after they had been leeched in the meanwhile. Some creatures have abilities which mimic spells, but are not limited by the usual spell constraints. Those they can use despite being out of mana, being silenced, having their right hand blown off, etc.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 705
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/12/2015 12:54 PM PDT
Subject: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


Hi Everybody!

I'm Konacon, Designated Shipping Grunt of the Elemental Lore Review Outlet and Stress-Relieving Punching Bag for the Development Team! Thanks to a programmatic error, we are now overstocked on Elemental Lore Review updates and everything must go! What can you do with your new shipment? GLAD YOU ASKED!

- Roll the dice with your slot machine defenses! - Knock things out of the sky! - Set all the things on fire! - Do watery things with water!

Once again this is Konacon, Designated Shipping Grunt of the ELR Outlet bringing a second update to you in the same day! So come on down to your nearest outlet and see what we have in stock for you!

MECHANICS

25 ranks of Elemental Lore, Earth now unlocks the ability to boost Elemental TD by 20 when warding against a spell attack. There is a base chance of 5% and an additional 1% chance is gained for every 10 additional lore ranks.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 707
Author: COSTELLOK
Date: on 09/12/2015 01:04 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


>If it's only ELEMENTAL TD, why wasn't it to ALL TD?

What's the name of the spell, again?


Fyonn's player

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 708
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 09/12/2015 01:15 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


Doesn't TD go cross-Realm at a fractional effect? 

 So 20 elemental TD would be 10 Spirit/Mental?



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 709
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/12/2015 01:17 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


> Doesn't TD go cross-Realm at a fractional effect? > So 20 elemental TD would be 10 Spirit/Mental?

Yes.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 710
Author: ERYKK2
Date: on 09/12/2015 01:20 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


== MECHANICS ==
25 ranks of Elemental Lore, Earth now unlocks the ability to boost Elemental TD by 20 when warding against a spell attack. There is a base chance of 5% and an additional 1% chance is gained for every 10 additional lore ranks.
~ Konacon

Is it +1% chance for every 10 lore ranks, or every 10 lore ranks over 25 ranks? Every 10 over 25 = 22% max Every 10 = 25% max

Spells that add to a particular type of TD always add 50% to the other type and 75% to hybrid types.

Are there any plans to add additional TD spells that don't have a "slot machine" effect?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 711
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/12/2015 01:23 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


> Is it +1% chance for every 10 lore ranks, or every 10 lore ranks over 25 ranks?

It's +1% for every 10 over 25. 25 = 5%, 35 = 6%, 45 = 7%, etc.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 712
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/12/2015 01:55 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


Seems odd to me that Earth, the most solid of elements, is the one that's being so strongly associated with randomness. I would have thought air would make most sense for that.

To me, this change is rather weak. I really don't think wizards need any help with eTD. I doubt I've been warded once in my character's life by an elemental TD spell.


So what we're realistically looking at in terms of usable benefit is a small proc chance at +10 sTD or 14 sorcTD.

7% @ 50 ranks = Averaged out that's .7 sTD and .98 sorcTD 12% @ 100 ranks = 1.2 sTD & 1.68 sorcTD 22% @ 200 ranks = 2.2 STD & 3.08 sorcTD

Make of that what you will.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 713
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/12/2015 02:48 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


So does this update have a chance to proc on any spell warding attempt, or just against elemental based spells?

Can't we just make the bonus always on (with 508 up of course) and lower the bonus to like 5 to start and it goes up based on seed?

I can't remember the last time a critter warded an elemental spell against my wizard so the only thing I need from this is the generic TD such a boost. Would be a lot better if the generic TD was always there.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 714
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/12/2015 02:54 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


> So does this update have a chance to proc on any spell warding attempt, or just against elemental based spells?

It has a chance to proc on any spell warding attempt.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 715
Author: ERYKK2
Date: on 09/12/2015 02:56 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


So does this update have a chance to proc on any spell warding attempt, or just against elemental based spells?
Can't we just make the bonus always on (with 508 up of course) and lower the bonus to like 5 to start and it goes up based on seed?
I can't remember the last time a critter warded an elemental spell against my wizard so the only thing I need from this is the generic TD such a boost. Would be a lot better if the generic TD was always there.

I agree, Wizards need an always-on TD boost, not this slot-machine boost.

To see the NEEDs of a Wizard, view this thread.

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Wizards/Developer's%20Corner%20-%20Wizards/view/2733

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 716
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/12/2015 02:59 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


>It has a chance to proc on any spell warding attempt.

Well that's something at least. Still not too crazy about the randomness factor of it but I'm at least considering training in earth lore now.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 717
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/12/2015 03:06 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


>I agree, Wizards need an always-on TD boost, not this slot-machine boost.

It's a serious design flaw. I think one time I figured it up that warriors could potentially have a higher TD in the Rift due to being able to wear both minor spirit and minor elemental spells whereas wizards can only wear their elemental spells.

Also throw in 10 generic TD from combat focus that wizards don't have access to plus potentially another 10+ generic TD if the warrior uses a shield.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 718
Author: DEANSMITH
Date: on 09/12/2015 03:25 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Mana Leech (516) Updated!


Um, I kinda didn't want to say anything...but...

Is the new Mana Leech working correctly? I got the "The dull grey beam suddenly flashes a deep blue and intensifies!" message with 0 Water Lore. I'm assuming that this is the messaging for the +20 proc? Is there a base chance for this flare to happen or is there something wonky going on?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 719
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/12/2015 03:28 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


>It's a serious design flaw. I think one time I figured it up that warriors could potentially have a higher TD in the Rift due to being able to wear both minor spirit and minor elemental spells whereas wizards can only wear their elemental spells.

Okay to be fair I must have been looking at very post cap warriors.

Assuming a wizard with 67 wizard ranks and 77 minor elemental ranks they would have 128 ETD and 64 STD from spells.

A warrior with no spells (but having all minor spirit/elemental spells cast on them) with 10 TD from combat focus would have 53 ETD and 50 STD.

If the warrior uses a shield they could have an extra 10 from an ensorcelled shield plus an extra 3 from shield focus for 66 ETD and 63 STD, just 1 under a wizard.

If a warrior had 20 minor spirit ranks and 30 minor elemental ranks their numbers would be 78ETD and 78STD.

Throw in the 13 from using an ensorcelled shield plus shield focus and it would be 91 ETD and 91 STD.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 720
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/12/2015 03:32 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Mana Leech (516) Updated!


> I got the "The dull grey beam suddenly flashes a deep blue and intensifies!" message with 0 Water Lore.

Thanks for this. Should be fixed now!

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 721
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/12/2015 03:36 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


Runestaves also gain 2 lower CvA per tier of ensorcellment. Did you include this for wizards?

Wizard TD is definitely problematic, I agree.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 722
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/12/2015 03:38 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


>Runestaves also gain 2 lower CvA per tier of ensorcellment. Did you include this for wizards?

No because I had no idea runestaves gave 2 CvA per rank of ensorcellment. Well heck, I gotta start ensorcelling up my wizard's runestaff then.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 723
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/12/2015 03:53 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


Also the CvA difference between plate armor and full leather is pretty significant in the warrior's favor.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 724
Author: FIREPHOENIX
Date: on 09/12/2015 03:57 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


All of what 2 warriors have that much spell training and the df redux penalty is no joke.

Only kerl has a shield and td checks. He also doesnt have the 30/20 spell training.

Jeril and roblar are level 240+

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 725
Author: ERYKK2
Date: on 09/12/2015 04:02 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


>It's a serious design flaw. I think one time I figured it up that warriors could potentially have a higher TD in the Rift due to being able to wear both minor spirit and minor elemental spells whereas wizards can only wear their elemental spells.
Okay to be fair I must have been looking at very post cap warriors.
Assuming a wizard with 67 wizard ranks and 77 minor elemental ranks they would have 128 ETD and 64 STD from spells.
A warrior with no spells (but having all minor spirit/elemental spells cast on them) with 10 TD from combat focus would have 53 ETD and 50 STD.
If the warrior uses a shield they could have an extra 10 from an ensorcelled shield plus an extra 3 from shield focus for 66 ETD and 63 STD, just 1 under a wizard.
If a warrior had 20 minor spirit ranks and 30 minor elemental ranks their numbers would be 78ETD and 78STD.
Throw in the 13 from using an ensorcelled shield plus shield focus and it would be 91 ETD and 91 STD.

You forgot to calculate the armor difference. I believe there's a 35 or more difference between full leather and full plate.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 726
Author: ERYKK2
Date: on 09/12/2015 04:11 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


Reply Reply
All of what 2 warriors have that much spell training and the df redux penalty is no joke.
Only kerl has a shield and td checks. He also doesnt have the 30/20 spell training.
Jeril and roblar are level 240+


Warriors shouldn't have access to spells at all. I can't think of any other game where Warriors cast the same spells as Bards, Clerics, Empaths, Sorcerers and Wizards.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 727
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 09/12/2015 04:12 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


>Warriors shouldn't have access to spells at all.

Wizards shouldn't be swinging a weapon successfully, at all

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 728
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/12/2015 04:20 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


They don't. I hunted with a cleric yesterday who had over 50AS advantage over me. A cleric!

Without haste no wizard would ever swing a weapon.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 729
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/12/2015 04:39 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


>Also the CvA difference between plate armor and full leather is pretty significant in the warrior's favor.

I knew I was forgetting something! So yeah, wizards wearing full leather, warriors wearing full plate, so add 32 TD to all of the warrior figures.

So again we're looking at 138 ETD and 74 STD for the wizard, now including +10 TD from a T5 ensorcell on their weapon. Not going to bother with armor ensorcell since both classes can do that.

A warrior with no spell ranks and 10 TD from combat focus will have 86 ETD and 82 STD if they have minor spirit and minor elemental spells cast at them. So a two handed weapon warrior hunting in the Rift with no spell knowledge of their own will already have more STD than wizards. If it's a shield using warrior we're looking at 96 ETD and 95 STD.

A two handed weapon warrior with 120 and 430 will have 110 ETD and 110STD and a shield using warrior will have 123ETD and 123STD.

A warrior could potentially have just 13 less ETD than a wizard and 49 more STD than a wizard. TD is supposed to be a warrior's weakness yet with all of the buffs they have been given over the years they have actually overcome that weakness quite well. Wizards are still at the mercy of maneuvers and STD.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 730
Author: TANDL
Date: on 09/12/2015 04:40 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


As my main is a bard (the only class that has a professional circle with 0 TD boosters) I actually find this topic mildly amusing.

Tal.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 731
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/12/2015 04:42 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


>If it's a shield using warrior we're looking at 96 ETD and 95 STD.

99ETD and 95STD. My bad.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 732
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/12/2015 04:44 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


I think the CvA boost to weapons only applies to Runestaves, TGO1.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 733
Author: DOUG
Date: on 09/12/2015 04:44 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


So with the understanding (I think we have an accord on this?) that wizards are elemental masters, and have no real understanding of spiritual magics - how much 'additional TD coverage' is required to demonstrate that wizards should have weaknesses?

I'll speak directly to the Rift example, and then cycle back to the 'earlier years' - but only from an anecdotal perspective.

In the Rift (and specifically the Scatter), elemental spells cast by any creature other than the lich can touch the Elf. None. Sorcerous spells from siphons have a slight chance to ruin his day (probably need a D100 roll of greater than 70), and spiritual spells can certainly cause delays (I hate bind! And sympathy! <growl> but still needs a roll of greater than 45).

And for all that - it is only swarms that cause any concern, one on one and often up to three or four on one, this simply isn't an issue like it can be for the warrior. The Elf dies far more frequently to burrowing crawlers (as an elf!) than he does to spells or physical attacks.

Earlier years, both sides of the equation are fairly similar. Sorcerous attacks generally need to generate a 70 to 75 plus D100 result, and spiritual attacks are 50 to 60 plus D100 result. Sure, there are a couple rough patches - just before 430 lands, as an example. Physical beasties for advancing from 20 to 35 is always my advice.

So, to restate my point - 40 to 50 in general on spiritual and 25-ish for sorcery. We're supposed to have weaknesses. Does that mean 15 (spiritual) and 5 (sorcery)? Are we looking only at 'a possible chance' rather than 'should be concerned'?

For my part - the risk might yet not be high enough. The 'thrill' of the hunt is being pushed down to who can fill up the brain bucket fastest - and that has my first vote for 'bad design'. The thrill should be in knowing that each second could be your character's last - and doing everything possible to avoid it from the character's perspective.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 734
Author: ERYKK2
Date: on 09/12/2015 04:44 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


>Warriors shouldn't have access to spells at all.
Wizards shouldn't be swinging a weapon successfully, at all

Compared to Squares, we don't.

However, they can cast pretty much every spell as good as a Pure.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 735
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 09/12/2015 04:46 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


>Compared to Squares, we don't.

>However, they can cast pretty much every spell as good as a Pure.

Yes, that angry contingency of pure warriors has really made its mark on the community.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 736
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/12/2015 04:48 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


>As my main is a bard (the only class that has a professional circle with 0 TD boosters) I actually find this topic mildly amusing.

As well you should!

Bards typically wear augmented chain so compared to a wizard in full leathers a bard with combat focus would have 102 ETD and 51STD.

Let's face it, the elemental classes are getting screwed in the TD department by warriors. WARRIORS!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 737
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/12/2015 04:50 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


>I think the CvA boost to weapons only applies to Runestaves, TGO1.

And shields, thus a shield using warrior would get an extra 10 TD from their shield and 3 from their shield specialization.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 738
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/12/2015 04:52 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


Quite true, though it should then be seen as a wash.

A pure will have a runestaff (or a shield) and Armor with Enscorcell.

A Square will have a shield and armor with Ensorcell (unless they're THW/Polearm).

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 739
Author: ERYKK2
Date: on 09/12/2015 04:53 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


So with the understanding (I think we have an accord on this?) that wizards are elemental masters, and have no real understanding of spiritual magics - how much 'additional TD coverage' is required to demonstrate that wizards should have weaknesses?

I thought each class was supposed to be susceptible to a certain thing. But that design seems to have gone away.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 740
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/12/2015 04:53 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


Warriors can also theoretically learn 115, giving them an extra chance to ward any spell they fail to ward.

Do bards and wizards get a spell like this? No.

Okay, sure, having that many spell ranks is a post cap goal for warriors. Point is warriors can overcome their weakness (or at least mitigate their weakness.)

Wizards have nothing to look forward to post cap to help them overcome spirit spells or maneuvers. At least not reliably, ie not something that has a 15% chance to proc only at midnight and while the wizard is standing on his head and rubbing his belly at the same time.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 741
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/12/2015 04:55 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


>A Square will have a shield and armor with Ensorcell (unless they're THW/Polearm).

I did the maths assuming a wizard is always using a runestaff with +10 TD from T5 ensorcell and then split up the warrior maths with a warrior using a two handed weapon and a warrior using a shield with +10 TD from T5 ensorcell. Yes it's a wash if the warrior is using a shield (except the +3 they get from focus) but this way we're looking at both possibilities since I know someone is going to say that not all warriors use shields.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 742
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/12/2015 04:56 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


Warriors don't need spell ranks to wear 115. Just enough Arcane Symbols to invoke it, which isn't many considering the spell is native.

The issue with balance boils down to the fact that the game grants Warriors, Rogues, and Monks native spell status, which I think is the problem. I am not saying to take away their access to the spell circle. It would be fitting to see them not being expected to know the spell unless they invest the insane amount of TPs it takes to learn it.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 743
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/12/2015 04:58 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


>Warriors don't need spell ranks to wear 115. Just enough Arcane Symbols to invoke it, which isn't many considering the spell is native.

Very true. Good point. Even a warrior with zero spell knowledge would probably be at least on par with wizards and bards just with 115 up.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 744
Author: DOUG
Date: on 09/12/2015 05:02 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


>>Very true. Good point. Even a warrior with zero spell knowledge would probably be at least on par with wizards and bards just with 115 up.

Until you extend the same thought back to wizards, who can easily overcome non-native resistance challenges in using scrolls - suddenly Opals is not out of reach and oh-how-quickly the shift comes back.

Head's up profession comparisons in isolation rarely work exactly because of these types of permutations.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 745
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/12/2015 05:03 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


This is an oddity that is limited to the Rift, though. Those spells aren't stripped because of the native status.

It is a lesser issue outside of the right and in spellburst areas as again, they are given the minor spells as "native", so they carry with it less of a penalty.

Outside of the Rift at high levels, Wizards should be glowing like a Christmas tree with spiritual spells of all circles. A warrior cannot do so or they'll pop without significant outside investment in MIU, Arcane Symbols, Mana control etc. All extremely TP intensive.

I suppose the best place to compare TDs across classes at cap is a Warcamp. No Spellburst, so both classes can spelltank. However, without significant MIU/Arcane Symbol investments, the warrior/rogue/etc wont be able to wear the better outside spells for little more than a hunt at a time.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 746
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/12/2015 05:05 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


>Head's up profession comparisons in isolation rarely work exactly because of these types of permutations. - Doug

It's fairly worthwhile to do one in the Rift, as it is quite clearly in the favor of squares, and you can hunt there from 64? to cap and beyond, counting the Scatter.

That native status of minor Elemental/Spiritual not being stripped from them skews results and places a big burden on Clerics (Pure Spiritualists) and Wizards (Pure Elementalists).

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 747
Author: DOUG
Date: on 09/12/2015 05:07 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


I think I exactly agree, Observer, with your point.

But that simply brings us back to mine, in which I assert the wizard does not suffer in the Rift unduly. Sure, the wizard can get hit by spiritual spells infrequently and sorcerer spells rarely.

But - isn't that in line with one of the wizard profession weaknesses?

And I'm fairly sure (but haven't played one, so unclear) that a warrior is far more susceptible to spells in the Rift than any pure profession, potentiality as analyzed aside. That is, if the warrior let's one get cast at him / her.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 748
Author: DOUG
Date: on 09/12/2015 05:12 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


>>It's fairly worthwhile to do one in the Rift, as it is quite clearly in the favor of squares

Yeah, um. . . I must have fallen asleep. Someone used maffs, didn't they?!

Let me get back to you - but just for the record, I have a very hard time understanding how a square can even come close to the TD a wizard brings to the table in the Rift. And I'm inclined to say that this feeling is irrespective of spell circle discussion.

But, let me grab my spreadsheet and figure it out for myself. Then I might grok.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 749
Author: FIREPHOENIX
Date: on 09/12/2015 05:16 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


We cant. Almost everything can ward us at level up there. Unless people want to continue using extreme examples. Even 5 times ensorcelled gear is no joke expensive. Most of the high end warriors are Voln too so what if we wear voln armor and that cant be ensorcelled at all.

We feint casters as a rule. If we dont and they cast we mostly die.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 750
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/12/2015 05:19 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


Keep in mind, Doug, that a wizard and a warrior being anywhere near each other in terms of spell defense is most definitely a huge win for the square, whose supposed bane is spells.

Everything gets skewed because a Warrior and a Rogue can walk around wearing 401, 406, 414, 101, 103, 107, and 115 if they so choose. If the warrior or rogue is smart, he will invest in enough MIU to activate 120 from a sorcerer imbedded rod via Raise for a truly strong TD gain. That should definitely not be seen as a "mutant" build to have that much Arcane Symbols and MIU towards cap, especially considering the availability of enhancives that only need to be worn for a few moments.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 751
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/12/2015 05:45 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


>Until you extend the same thought back to wizards, who can easily overcome non-native resistance challenges in using scrolls - suddenly Opals is not out of reach and oh-how-quickly the shift comes back.

Wait, wizards can wear non-native spells in the Rift? Tell me more.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 752
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/12/2015 05:47 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


>But - isn't that in line with one of the wizard profession weaknesses?

And again, I'm fine with that. However ALL TDs are supposed to be a weakness for warriors. Why is it they can outmatch Wizards in STD and be almost as good at ETD as wizards, who are supposed to be the elemental masters?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 753
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/12/2015 05:49 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


>Even 5 times ensorcelled gear is no joke expensive.

That's fine, then it's a hindrance to both classes.

>Most of the high end warriors are Voln too so what if we wear voln armor and that cant be ensorcelled at all.

Let's stop being silly.

>If we dont and they cast we mostly die.

Wizards just die, so YAY!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 754
Author: DOUG
Date: on 09/12/2015 08:47 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


>>Wait, wizards can wear non-native spells in the Rift? Tell me more.

Heh, generally no. Every now and then, though. . . I think my point was lost in there, but my apologies for not staying strictly within the bounds of the Rift's environment. I hadn't thought we did with the primary point either, since 115 and warriors is useful in any number of areas. My bad (?)

>>Everything gets skewed because a Warrior and a Rogue can walk around wearing 401, 406, 414, 101, 103, 107, and 115 if they so choose. If the warrior or rogue is smart, he will invest in enough MIU to activate 120 from a sorcerer imbedded rod via Raise for a truly strong TD gain.

Ok, I did me some maffs. No guarantee that all this is correct, but here's the short summary up top. Comparing Warrior ?TD rates to Balanced Wizard (100's all spell lists) ?TD rates gives us the following Warrior / Wizard ratios (assuming Rift, capped - I suppose at level 70, there may be a case that should be considered).

Circle Ratio Warrior Wizard
eTD 35% 52 149
sTD 67% 49 73
hTD 51% 56 110

And just for grins, same table comparing Cleric / Wizard ratios (again, Rift). And caution, cleric's training may be 'suspect'. ;)

Circle Ratio Cleric Wizard
eTD 38% 57 149
sTD 144% 105 73
hTD 71% 78 110

hTD = hybrid (sorcery) TD. I hope it's ok to leave out Mental, for now?

>>Why is it they can outmatch Wizards in STD and be almost as good at ETD as wizards, who are supposed to be the elemental masters?

Sorry, but unless I did something terribly wrong (which is possible! After all. . . maffs.) I don't think warriors are at any risk of outmatching or even being close. At level 70 (maffs wears me out - someone else do this?) we could take off 25 from the eTD for the wizard (assuming 400s / 900s to level?). That would change the table between Warriors / Wizards to:

Circle Ratio Warrior Wizard
eTD 42% 52 124
sTD 82% 49 60
hTD 54% 56 103

I don't think 82% 'outmatches', perhaps might qualify for 'close', especially for CS driven mages (500s training takes away from overall TD). But then, doesn't that qualify as 'choice'?

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 755
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/12/2015 08:55 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


Doug is that including the 32 TD across the board from Armor CvA? A very important factor in this comparison.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 756
Author: DOUG
Date: on 09/12/2015 08:59 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


>>and 115 if they so choose

I guess I didn't account for this spell in my earlier synopsis. I'll say this, though - a chance to activate of 50% for a spiritual spell (down to 12.5% for wizard spells!), to see if that +49 sTD is going to save the warrior. . . well, I'm not thinking its a game-breaker for warriors. Now, that sTD on the cleric, though, that's different entirely!

But, zero experience with the warrior profession, so I have to rely on professionals.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 757
Author: ERYKK2
Date: on 09/12/2015 09:13 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


Ok, I did me some maffs. No guarantee that all this is correct, but here's the short summary up top. Comparing Warrior ?TD rates to Balanced Wizard (100's all spell lists) ?TD rates gives us the following Warrior / Wizard ratios (assuming Rift, capped - I suppose at level 70, there may be a case that should be considered).

I think this is a problem with your calculation. Are you a "balanced wizard"?

I think most wizards DO NOT follow the 100/100/100 path because you need to over-train 500's for 519.

I don't think 82% 'outmatches', perhaps might qualify for 'close', especially for CS driven mages (500s training takes away from overall TD). But then, doesn't that qualify as 'choice'?

It may be a choice for a Wizard, but why is that same choice not forced upon Empaths and Clerics? Empaths max out on TD at 1158, Clerics max out on TD at 320. They don't have to make any choice. A Wizard won't max out until 100 spell ranks in 900's and 400's. And they have to sacrifice CS to do so. Which is yet another thing Empaths and Clerics don't have to worry about.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 758
Author: DOUG
Date: on 09/12/2015 09:16 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


>>Doug is that including the 32 TD across the board from Armor CvA? A very important factor in this comparison.

Ahah! See? Maffs. . . ugh.

No, it's not. Spells only. That number (32) comes from CvA assuming magical armors, full leather for wizard and full plate for warriors? As an aside, I'll briefly note that number should be 35, not 32. (because. . . magic)

Presuming that's an affirmative, readjusted table at 32 CvA benefit (since it's not clear):

Circle Ratio Warrior Wizard
eTD 56% 84 149
sTD 110% 81 73
hTD 80% 88 110

And adjusted for the level 70 discussion:

Circle Ratio Warrior Wizard
eTD 68% 84 124
sTD 135% 81 60
hTD 85% 88 103

Thanks for pointing out my error, Keith! Point conceded on sTD 'outmatching'. Still far short of 'almost as good' on the eTD side, in my view.

I'll also add, 81 against 105 sTD (cleric) indicates still a 'weakness', just not as great a 'weakness' as the wizard's elemental alignment. I think I like it that way, but understand better why TGO01 is bringing this charge forward.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 759
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/12/2015 09:18 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


>Sorry, but unless I did something terribly wrong (which is possible! After all. . . maffs.) I don't think warriors are at any risk of outmatching or even being close.

As KEITHOBAD said, are you including the +32 generic TD warriors are going to have in full plate compared to wizards who generally wear full leather?

Are you including the 10 generic TD warriors get from combat focus because wizards surprisingly can't train in a CM that deals with TD?

Are you counting for the fact that if a warrior uses a shield it would cancel out the 10 TD bonus wizards could get from a T5 ensorcelled runestaff but warriors would have +3 TD from their shield specialization?

Didja? Huh huh?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 760
Author: DOUG
Date: on 09/12/2015 09:18 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


>> I'll say this, though - a chance to activate of 50% for a spiritual spell (down to 12.5% for wizard spells!), to see if that +49 sTD is going to save the warrior. . . well, I'm not thinking its a game-breaker for warriors.

And, I think this point I will still stand behind, even though it's 81 sTD in full plate, not 49 sTD as stated above. Keep in mind this number (81 or 49) is really only useful if you're within 100 of the CS of the caster to begin with. Otherwise, dead is dead (usually).

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 762
Author: THROGG
Date: on 09/12/2015 09:22 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


>> Wizards are still at the mercy of ... STD.<<

Someone clearly played hooky during sex-ed class. Condoms are your best defense against STDs. Well, other than abstinence, of course.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 763
Author: ERYKK2
Date: on 09/12/2015 09:23 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


Thanks for pointing out my error, Keith! Point conceded on sTD 'outmatching'. Still far short of 'almost as good' on the eTD side, in my view.
I'll also add, 81 against 105 sTD (cleric) indicates still a 'weakness', just not as great a 'weakness' as the wizard's elemental alignment. I think I like it that way, but understand better why TGO01 is bringing this charge forward.
Doug

You like that Warriors defend against spells better than ... anyone?

That's a HUGE flaw IMO.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 765
Author: DOUG
Date: on 09/12/2015 09:33 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


>>I think most wizards DO NOT follow the 100/100/100 path because you need to over-train 500's for 519.

Interestingly enough, I've been a balanced wizard for some time, but did change my training to reduce the 400's circle. Not for 519, though, more specifically to pick up tertiary skills I needed, and 400's training was the easiest to give up. I use 519 disabling, but CS and firelore for insta-kill wasn't ever a part of any of my training plans.

Presently, the Elf is sitting at 81/100/100 with a slew of unspent training points (waiting for the ELR to complete :).

I don't presume to speak for most wizards, but I can tell you that I personally have been advocating for the balanced path for more than a decade.

>>Which is yet another thing Empaths and Clerics don't have to worry about.

This is part of the reason why I'm thinking I'm liking the suggestion in the other topic about moving some spells around and creating a diversified CS versus Bolt AS path. And the wizard it will hurt the most is the non-balanced (read here, overtrained for CS) wizard. While we're on the topic, someone remind me again why there's so much benefit in 25 CS for the wizard? Never really got that.

>>Are you including the 10 generic TD warriors get from combat focus because wizards surprisingly can't train in a CM that deals with TD?

[looks down at keyboard] Um. . . no.

>>Are you counting for the fact that if a warrior uses a shield it would cancel out the 10 TD bonus wizards could get from a T5 ensorcelled runestaff but warriors would have +3 TD from their shield specialization?

[mutter, mumble, blush] No.

>>Didja? Huh huh?

Alright, alright already! Sheesh. 13 generic TD to the warrior. Readjusted (again!)

Circle Ratio Warrior Wizard
eTD 65% 97 149
sTD 129% 94 73
hTD 92% 101 110

And adjusted for the level 70 discussion:

Circle Ratio Warrior Wizard
eTD 78% 97 124
sTD 157% 94 60
hTD 98% 101 103

There. Point concerning sTD reinforced (and 115 is looking sweeter by the minute). But I still say 65% and 78% do not qualify as 'almost as good'. Someone find a way to get this to 85%, and I'll have to change my mind.

Anyone? Anything else?

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 766
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/12/2015 09:34 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


>Still far short of 'almost as good' on the eTD side, in my view.

You're right first of all, it is 35 TD for full plate compared to full leather.

You're going to make me do this math all over again and show my work, aren't ya?

FINE!

We'll just throw in all normal possible TD bonuses (as in no one of a kind items) and ignore society since each class can be in the same society.

Let's do wizards first.

401 +5 ETD/+2.5STD (do we know how this rounds?) 406 +10 ETD/+5 STD 414 +15 ETD/+7.5 STD 430 +39 ETD/+19.5STD (assuming 77 MnE ranks) 508 +20 ETD/+10 STD 913 +38 ETD/+19 STD (assuming 67 wizard ranks)

+10 generic TD from T5 ensorcelled runestaff +10 generic TD from T5 ensorcelled armor

147 ETD/83.5 STD

Now warriors.

First let's start with the absolute basics a warrior would have available.

+10 generic TD from combat focus +10 generic TD from T5 ensorcelled armor +13 generic TD from T5 ensorcelled shield (YES THIS IS OPTIONAL AND I'LL MAKE TWO CALCULATIONS AT THE END) +35 TD compared to wizards due to full plate/full leather comparison

401 +5 ETD/+2.5STD 406 +10 ETD/+5 STD 414 +15 ETD/+7.5 STD

101 +10 STD/+5ETD 107 +15 STD/+7.5ETD

With shield: 110.5 ETD/108STD Without shield: 97.5ETD/95STD

Now let's look at the maybes here. Maybe the warrior is post capped and learn this spell. Maybe the warrior is using a scroll or an imbed. Etc. Etc.

120 +20 STD/+10 ETD 430 +15 ETD/+7.5 STD

With shield: 135.5 ETD/135.5STD Without shield: 122.5ETD/122.5STD

So absolute worst case scenario (a warrior only using basic spells and no shield) a warrior has +12 STD and -49.5 ETD compared to a wizard.

Best case scenario a warrior has +52 STD and -11.5 ETD compared to a wizard.

This isn't even looking at 115 which is actually a pretty freaking awesome spell, especially against spirit spells.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 767
Author: DOUG
Date: on 09/12/2015 09:45 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


>>You like that Warriors defend against spells better than ... anyone?

>>That's a HUGE flaw IMO.

I will admit that with the recently readjusted adjusted numbers, the window for my asserting this is closing. But, let's not get going into histrionics. Warriors do not 'defend against spells better than ... anyone'.

Unless of course, we're saying that wizards are the only 'anyones' of consequence. Then I'm down with that! Still not true, and might be a few other pure professions that might have choice commentary, though.

I do now understand better why the railing against warriors is being undertaken. But let me ask this question point blank. It's been needing asking for a while, I think.

Are we really attempting to tear down other professions in our comparisons, just so we can feel better about the wizard profession?

Warriors have a better shot (not a guarantee) at warding spiritual magic than wizards, but not better than clerics or empaths. Wizards are supposed to be weaker against spiritual magics. Warriors are supposed to be more generally vulnerable against magics. These three statements still seem to hold true, and the degree to which they hold true might be relevant in a grand game-balance discussion.

But here, in the wizard's topic, rife with dissatisfaction because of the potential future fate of select wizard training paths?

Please tell me this is not what we're aspiring to.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 768
Author: DOUG
Date: on 09/12/2015 09:57 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


Arg! More maffs!

I think I'm ok, still, with where you are TGO01. Those items that wash (ensorceled this, ensorceled that) I didn't account for. I didn't give the warrior 430, because to the best of my knowledge there's only one way to get that through one item - so good for that one warrior (if in fact a warrior owns it, right now).

I did include 120. And of course, I did my non-70 at cap, which greatly favors the wizard. I might add that the training required for that warrior to pull off 115 and 120 conveniently might tend closer to cap than to 70 levels. But I'm not sure.

I will have to study up on your shield point - I may be 10 more TD light in my calculations. Even that isn't quite going to stretch to 85%, though, I don't believe. And I want to play the game a bit now, so it's going to wait.

I think my position still stands, though. But I'll watch those very few warriors that dare the Scatter a bit more closely and log some stuff to see what I can actually see rather than theorize. That's something else anecdotally, though, that needs some consideration.

If squares are within reasonable percentages (I pick 15%!!) of surviving spell casts, why is it there are 15 to 1 ratios of squares to non-squares in the Rift? It's probably higher, honestly, but I'll start with that general question.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 769
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/12/2015 09:58 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


>Are we really attempting to tear down other professions in our comparisons, just so we can feel better about the wizard profession?

Not at all. I actually don't mind that warriors have everything that they have. I just happened to bring this up in this discussion because at first I thought this was a flat +20 ETD bonus after attaining so many ranks. First thing that went through my mind was "+10 STD?! YES PLEASE!"

Then I read more and was like..wait..this is another proc change? Then it got me into discussing how wizards are lacking in the TD department (especially STD) and I thought a good comparison was with warriors because ALL TDs are supposed to be their weakness. Like literally their only weakness.

It just boggles my mind that with the professions the way they are right now (in my mind all are fine except monks need some love) anyone is sitting down and saying "You know what? Wizards need some major nerfs. And they need a +10 STD boost via lores that have a 25% chance to proc with 200 ranks in said lore. Yeah. This is what wizards need."

Look at 115, a 15th level spell that just about every single class can learn (EXCEPT WIZARDS AND BARDS!), 200 ranks in its respective lore gives a 19% chance to give a whole new chance to ward the spell. From any circle. That's a whole new chance! If the critter only has a 50% chance to ward you then you're gaining a 19% chance for a 50% chance to ward off the spell.

Meanwhile with 508, an 8th level spell in a major spell circle, again assuming the critter has a 50% chance to ward you, you need 200 ranks for a 25% chance for an extra 10% chance to ward off the spell.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 770
Author: ERYKK2
Date: on 09/12/2015 10:08 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


There. Point concerning sTD reinforced (and 115 is looking sweeter by the minute). But I still say 65% and 78% do not qualify as 'almost as good'. Someone find a way to get this to 85%, and I'll have to change my mind.
Anyone? Anything else?
Doug

The only thing I can think of is that Elemental spells are far less common, and generally less deadly.

210,214,311 vs 409/415.

Yeah, the spiritual spells are far more scary, and also happen to last 3-4x longer.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 771
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/12/2015 10:13 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


Weapon Fire is pretty scary to squares ... and just about anyone it hits, really.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 772
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/12/2015 10:13 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


>210,214,311 vs 409/415.

Don't forget 1615 which I'm pretty sure is what Fallen Crusaders cast.

The direct damage is usually pretty mild, it's the forcing to kneel and inducing roundtime that can be killer...for a wizard that is. A warrior would probably laugh that off.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 773
Author: ERYKK2
Date: on 09/12/2015 10:15 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


Weapon Fire is pretty scary to squares ... and just about anyone it hits, really.

I'll give you that. But if you're fast enough to disk it upon the spell being cast, it does nothing.

I wish I could say that for any of the spiritual spells.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 774
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/12/2015 10:18 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


Silence for a Warrior or Rogue is pretty tame. Hell, even for pures (aside from Bards) it just means a time out where you might have to retreat a bit.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 775
Author: FIREPHOENIX
Date: on 09/12/2015 11:39 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


Lot of math to say Wizards both beat warriors (mostly) and do it more cheaply (1000). That math is awesome too though. Kudos there!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 776
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/12/2015 11:44 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


>Lot of math to say Wizards both beat warriors (mostly) and do it more cheaply (1000).

How exactly are you arriving at either of those conclusions based on what's being discussed?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 777
Author: FIREPHOENIX
Date: on 09/12/2015 11:47 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


So absolute worst case scenario (a warrior only using basic spells and no shield) a warrior has +12 STD and -49.5 ETD compared to a wizard.

This one..

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 778
Author: FIREPHOENIX
Date: on 09/12/2015 11:48 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


It's from you. Next illustrate the time it takes to cast all those spells, the amount of money to refresh scrolls and how long is this TD scenario sustainable without learning the spells to the tune of 430/120 and what do those TPs cost.

It's crazy high.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 779
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/12/2015 11:55 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


>This one..

So from the absolute worst case scenario for the warrior having +12STD over wizards (you know, warriors are supposed to be weak against TD) you get the idea that wizards (mostly) beat warriors and do it cheaper too?

>Next illustrate the time it takes to cast all those spells

What, you mean like the castRT? What does this have anything to do with anything?

>the amount of money to refresh scrolls

It won't cost a dime for a warrior to get 101, 107, 401, 406, or 414.

>how long is this TD scenario sustainable without learning the spells to the tune of 430/120 and what do those TPs cost.

But warriors can learn 120 and 430. That's the point. They can eventually overcome (or mitigate) their weaknesses post cap. Wizards can not.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 780
Author: FIREPHOENIX
Date: on 09/12/2015 11:58 PM PDT
Subject: Revised Wizard III


What about a meteor fix and 919 buff as an addendum to 506/515/519. That might really close the gap on this dispute.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 781
Author: FIREPHOENIX
Date: on 09/13/2015 12:02 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


But warriors can learn 120 and 430. That's the point. They can eventually overcome (or mitigate) their weaknesses post cap. Wizards can not.

At like level 237!!! Come on with this. Wizards are railing about 25 earth lore and the 50/50/50/ lore math on enchanting, but to argue warrior td based on Roblar with 38 million+ XP.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 783
Author: THROGG
Date: on 09/13/2015 12:10 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


Please, can we keep this discussion even halfway realistic? Talking about warriors with 50 ranks spells is ludicrous! Hell, if you play a warrior for 10+ years and get to 5x cap or whatever it takes to learn all those spells, I'd say that you deserve to have the best TD in the game as a reward. Let's talk in realistic terms here. Rogues learn spells at literally half the cost that warriors do. My rogue, at level 74, knows exactly ... SEVEN spells. I can't even conceive how long I'd have to play to learn 50 ranks of spells, and a warrior would take twice as long.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 784
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/13/2015 12:11 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


>At like level 237!!! Come on with this.

So? My wizard had to invest in 101 CM ranks just to have a chance at defending himself against CM attacks. That's 2828 PTPs worth of training just to get those CM ranks. Keep in mind my wizard gets literally no benefit from CM training other than defense against CMANs.

A warrior could get ~24 spell ranks with an equivalent number of MTPs. That puts him at 120 with just 2 spell ranks shy of being able to cast 406 as well.

120 would put his STD even higher than a wizards and put him that much closer to a wizard's ETD. Not to mention this would also give warriors access to self cast 115.

Not to mention wizards have to single in PF for 2 PTPs per rank more than warriors can double in it, that's another 1 or 2 spell ranks right there.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 785
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/13/2015 12:13 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


>Please, can we keep this discussion even halfway realistic? Talking about warriors with 50 ranks spells is ludicrous!

As realistic as a wizard having 101 ranks of CM training just for the defense purposes of having CMAN training?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 786
Author: DOUG
Date: on 09/13/2015 12:52 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


>>As realistic as a wizard having 101 ranks of CM training just for the defense purposes of having CMAN training?

Well, kinda - its a post cap discussion, for sure. But probably not quite as far out a post cap discussion as 50 spells for a warrior.

Still - I'm getting a bit confused now. Really, honestly. We are discussing exactly what?

- Our displeasure with a recent spell change? (Everything that follows is an attempt to justify our displeasure.) - Our suggestion for a weakness that exists that needs addressing? (Everything that follows is an attempt to justify our reasoning.) - Something else I'm not catching? (Everything that follows is sure to confuse Doug even more until this is understood.)

All of this particular discussion is under a thread entitled 508 Updated. I went back and scanned the update message from Konacon. In summary, 25 ranks EL:E unlocks a base 5% chance to boost eTD by 20. By definition of the systems' rules, that should be 20 eTD, 10 sTD and 15 hTD. I suppose we should ask if this only applies to eTD, but if it does, I'll be a bit surprised, honestly. And if it does only apply to eTD, I think we can probably move this forward at this point in time with a simple suggestion, rather than challenging game-balance formulaic tables and charts. (Damn! I want charts!!)

In keeping with general lore statements, the GM team has slightly enhanced (actually a 20 adder isn't 'slight', what makes it slight is the lower percentage chance) spell capability through a specific lore.

Key point - the wizard isn't worse off by this change. Even more key point - the wizard isn't worse off by this change if the wizard doesn't learn EL:E ranks to get this benefit. Another key point (potentially) - the wizard's weakest condition of spiritual target defense gets a slight boost, if the standard rules are followed.

So, I admit to being a bit confused as to why we're now pulling out all the stops in comparing sTD for warriors. And yes, I contributed. That just shows what maffs does to my brain! More Macallan's please!

Which is it? Are wizards everywhere suddenly wilting under a withering fire of spiritual spells cast by nasties because of this change? Or are we suggesting that while the hood's up, it might be time to do a bit more for wizards to offset this weakness they're supposed to have? In either case, what does warrior sTD have to do with it (beyond being better informed, and perhaps considering a warrior for the Rift, instead of a wizard?)

I actually thought of a third potential cause for what I'll call 'consternation' at this point - not meaning offense, just trying to come to grips with the current agitating mindsets I see displayed. Perhaps the 'consternation' is caught up in the difficulties these types of changes introduce to 'min/max' game play? I mean, how exactly does the 'efficient wizard' account for a 5% chance of an additional 20 eTD? It's a pickle, no doubt about it.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 787
Author: GS4-AULIS
Date: on 09/13/2015 01:34 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


>>So? My wizard had to invest in 101 CM ranks just to have a chance at defending himself against CM attacks. That's 2828 PTPs worth of training just to get those CM ranks. Keep in mind my wizard gets literally no benefit from CM training other than defense against CMANs.

So you're saying training in side-by-side isn't a benefit to a wizard when grouped? Or Dirtkick, which can be used just as easily from defensive stance as offensive stance? I'd say those are benefits that go beyond just defending against CMAN attacks. So in truth, you do LITERALLY get more benefit from CM training other than just defense from CMAN's. Whether you think it is worth the TP's or not is another discussion, however.


~Aulis Forums Manager QC'er

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 788
Author: THROGG
Date: on 09/13/2015 01:43 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


>>Well, kinda - its a post cap discussion, for sure. But probably not quite as far out a post cap discussion as 50 spells for a warrior.<<

My mage had 101 ranks of CMan at level 99. And she used feint to make her targets hittable with weapons. Show me a level 99 warrior with 50 ranks of spells. It is nowhere near a comparable feat.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 789
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/13/2015 01:46 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


Aw c'mon, I hope you're teasing. If wizards are training anything other than disarm (and feint for warmages) I'd be rather surprised considering losing the runestaff is a virtual death-sentence.

In a fair world I think squares should be as vulnerable to TD attacks as pures are to Cmans. The fact that wizards are incredibly susceptible to both seems kinda lame. Or let our elemental mastery give us super-dodgy bonuses to maneuver-based elemental spells like 435, 912, 410, 917, etc... We've got weaknesses in spades and soon RT will be added to that list for some reason.

The greatest defensive gains from the ELR have been in DS which is the one spot we DON'T need help.

Anyway, something I noticed looking at the numbers: The TD gains you'd get through CvA switching from fulls to doubles is equivalent to the lore bonus of 508 with a full 100 ranks EL:E. Look at that, on topic! :D

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 790
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 09/13/2015 06:05 AM PDT
Subject: 502 Suggestion - Blinding light


This snippet from another thread gave me an idea for a new wizard spell. At least this seems in line for a profession that is expected to be primarily EBP based attac focused.

>> So you're saying training in side-by-side isn't a benefit to a wizard when grouped? Or Dirtkick, which can be used just as easily from defensive stance as offensive stance?

502 - Blinding Light (or gust of wind if you prefer to go that route).

Creates a brilliant elemental flare which temporarily blinds/stuns the target similar to how dirtkick works today. Tie the effectiveness of the flare to the warding check and modify the result upward based on fire lore.

From CMAN HELP DIRTKICK Description: Attempt to kick dirt into the face of an opponent in order to temporarily reduce their Attack Strength, Perception Bonus, and chance at Evading, Blocking, or Parrying attacks. Rank 1: -10 AS/-20 Perception/-15% EBP Rank 2: -15 AS/-30 Perception/-20% EBP Rank 3: -20 AS/-40 Perception/-25% EBP Rank 4: -25 AS/-50 Perception/-30% EBP Rank 5: -30 AS/-60 Perception/-35% EBP

-- Robert

The ELR will never end! VIVE LA ELR! ~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 791
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/13/2015 06:27 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


1. Training in spells as a warrior or a rogue lowers their Redux. Training in CM does not lower a pure's magical defenses (opportunity costs do not count.)

2. A square needs exactly 0 spell ranks to walk around with 401, 406, 414, 101, 103, 107, 115, and 120. These spells are among the easiest to obtain and activate in the game.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 792
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 09/13/2015 07:11 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


>> 2. A square needs exactly 0 spell ranks to walk around with 401, 406, 414, 101, 103, 107, 115, and 120. These spells are among the easiest to obtain and activate in the game.

I agree with 401, 406, 414, 101, 103 (not stackable unless self cast), and 107. But how are 115 and 120 among the easiest to obtain in the game?

-- Robert

The ELR will never end! VIVE LA ELR! ~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 793
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/13/2015 07:40 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


Sorcerers can embed them, as can clerics. That makes them infinite in amount of one so desired.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 794
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 09/13/2015 08:03 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


Okay, so via training in MIU. I must have missed a point as I thought you were referring to ease of access via someone casting the spell on you.

Thanks for clarifying.

-- Robert

The ELR will never end! VIVE LA ELR! ~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 797
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/13/2015 08:14 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


And in 115's case, training in Arcane Symbols. 115 is a commonly found spell and is amongst the easiest a sorcerer can work with. Having 20 uses at a time isn't anything to sneeze at, but it still can't touch the availability of a spell capable of being imbedded. If we are going to argue that it is difficult to obtain spells capable of being imbedded, then we're going to have to revisit the problem of the ubiquity of Haste.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 798
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/13/2015 09:59 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


>So you're saying training in side-by-side isn't a benefit to a wizard when grouped?

Sure if I literally want to spend upwards of 60% of my available CMAN points for a CMAN that only benefits me while in a group, and to get the most benefit requires my group to have side by side training as well. We're also talking about an ability that increases physical AS only (absolute zero use for my wizard) and a small boost in DS, which my wizard doesn't really need.

>Or Dirtkick, which can be used just as easily from defensive stance as offensive stance?

If I have to make a choice between training in feint and cunning defense for the defense or dirtkick for the offense capability of dirtkick, I'm going with feint and cunning defense training, especially considering I have things like ewave and call wind to use instead of dirtkick.

>I'd say those are benefits that go beyond just defending against CMAN attacks.

Sure if wizards had 200 CMAN points like squares and semis can get.

>So in truth, you do LITERALLY get more benefit from CM training other than just defense from CMAN's.

No. No I don't. What I said exactly was "Keep in mind my wizard gets literally no benefit from CM training other than defense against CMANs." My wizard trained in CM for no other reason than because he needed the defense that training in those CMANs provided. That's it. My wizard is literally getting no benefit other than CMAN defense from his CM training. You can argue that there is a mythical wizard out there who chooses to get dirtkick to use it in defensive stance over something like feint or disarm weapon or cunning defense, but I'm willing to bet that number is pretty low.

>My mage had 101 ranks of CMan at level 99. And she used feint to make her targets hittable with weapons. Show me a level 99 warrior with 50 ranks of spells. It is nowhere near a comparable feat.

To my knowledge your wizard is a warmage, so you're training in CM for the AS. Pure wizards do not need the AS from CM.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 799
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/13/2015 11:25 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


I just thought of something else, we keep saying a wizard is weak against TD (mostly spirit/hybrid TD) and maneuvers but we are forgetting another very big vulnerability they have, Force on Force.

Force on Force can quickly kill a wizard. A warrior trains in MoC anyways for DFredux and mstrike but it also helps them against FoF.

How many wizards train in MoC period? I'm willing to guess the number is close to zero, at least the number of wizards at cap with 101 ranks in MoC.

So that's three disadvantages in combat that wizards have, none of which have been addressed in the ELR, yet wizards are first up on the chopping block for nerfs.

Meanwhile warriors are complaining in the other thread that mstrike isn't really that good because of the long RTs they are put in when using it. That's funny, if it's not all that good then why does literally every warrior use mstrike?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 801
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 09/13/2015 11:35 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


>> How many wizards train in MoC period? I'm willing to guess the number is close to zero, at least the number of wizards at cap with 101 ranks in MoC.

I have 10 ranks that I trained somewhere around cap. It made a noticeable difference in survival when knocked over and stunned.

It's also worth training at least a few ranks even before cap for ball spell splash.

-- Robert aka Faulkil

The ELR will never end! VIVE LA ELR! ~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 802
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/13/2015 11:38 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


>I have 10 ranks that I trained somewhere around cap. It made a noticeable difference in survival when knocked over and stunned.

That's another 350 PTPs a wizard trains in for defensive purposes, which translates to another 3 spells a warrior could learn. We're already up to what, almost 30 spells a warrior could have if they trained in the things wizards do for the defensive properties?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 803
Author: SHAYD11
Date: on 09/13/2015 12:56 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


I think its been obviously shown that warriors are superior to wizards with the amazing math and caluclations(certainly there was no weird scenarios posted, a warrior with 80million exp in the rift might have more td, oh no! Proof they are better in one circumstance). The solution is to let these lucky wizards have a one time chance to change professions to warriors after the 506/515 nerfs go through. I would bet exactly NONE would opt for this choice except 1 or 2 weird warmages who wanted to use their expensive weapon still.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 804
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/13/2015 01:03 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


>I think its been obviously shown that warriors are superior to wizards with the amazing math and caluclations(certainly there was no weird scenarios posted, a warrior with 80million exp in the rift might have more td, oh no!

If you are not going to bother taking my arguments into account then why are you even bothering to reply to my comments? I have taken everything everyone has said and actually argued against the points they have brought up. You apparently are ignoring my points and engaging in "reductio ad absurdum" in order to downplay the points I am making.

But what the heck, I'll reiterate my points.

I showed that with ZERO spell training a warrior could have a higher STD than wizards. ZERO spell training. Meaning a warrior just has to cap and BAM! Higher STD than even a wizard with 100 million experience.

I then showed that with just 20 spell ranks a warrior could have even more STD than a warrior and close the ETD gap. I then showed with 50 spell ranks they could blow a wizard out of the water in STD and come within striking distance of a wizard's ETD.

I then showed how a wizard has to invest TPs in several different skills to help overcome their weaknesses and that with these TP investments a warrior could train in almost 30 spell ranks with the same amount of TPs. This shows it doesn't require a warrior with 80 million experience to get 30 spell ranks. Not even close. Not even a fourth of that.

>The solution is to let these lucky wizards have a one time chance to change professions to warriors after the 506/515 nerfs go through. I would bet exactly NONE would opt for this choice except 1 or 2 weird warmages who wanted to use their expensive weapon still.

This is a silly argument and doesn't even comment on a single point I have made. You sir are quite frankly being silly, off topic, and highly insulting. Don't get me wrong, I'm beginning to like you. You remind me of a young me, or even a me of today depending on my mood.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 805
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/13/2015 01:04 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


>I then showed that with just 20 spell ranks a warrior could have even more STD than a warrior and close the ETD gap.

A warrior could have more STD than a wizard. DERP!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 806
Author: CAVEMANIAC
Date: on 09/13/2015 03:15 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


I cant believe that Warriors are being compared favorably to Wizards. The TD issue is real but only occurs in the rift due to the mechanics of the sphere. With 0 additional training wizards can have waaay more defenses than warriors/rogues in spell burst areas.

Mstrike is a great skill for melee but the comparison being made is really a stretch.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 807
Author: TGO01
Date: on 09/13/2015 03:29 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


>The TD issue is real but only occurs in the rift due to the mechanics of the sphere.

"Only" in the rift? Isn't the rift one of only like 3 hunting grounds? I do believe it holds the only post cap hunting ground as well, yes?

>With 0 additional training wizards can have waaay more defenses than warriors/rogues in spell burst areas.

And how many spell burst capped hunting grounds are there? 1?

So we downplay the significance of the rift because it's "only" the Rift but we pay special attention to the spell burst areas.

And if that warrior is training in spells himself and training in AS and MIU then he's not that much worse off than wizards even in spell burst areas.

>Mstrike is a great skill for melee but the comparison being made is really a stretch.

Okay. Care to elaborate at all? I feel like I'm doing all of this research and maths and showing my work and backing up my arguments just for someone to come along with "I disagree."

Like..okay..are we having a discussion or treating this like a Facebook post where people just "Like" and "Share" if they agree?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 808
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 09/13/2015 04:12 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


Has this been given any consideration or am I way off base on this (like, maybe there are no critters that actually cast stone skin)?

-- Robert

The ELR will never end! VIVE LA ELR! ~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 809
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/13/2015 04:23 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


Moulis apparently have stone skin. Someone was mocked on the PC for being killed by a reactive vibration flare. heh.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 810
Author: ERYKK2
Date: on 09/13/2015 04:32 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


Has this been given any consideration or am I way off base on this (like, maybe there are no critters that actually cast stone skin)?

Moulis cast it.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 811
Author: CAVEMANIAC
Date: on 09/13/2015 05:42 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


Yes, only in the rift. Every other hunting ground the wizard wins. We will see what happens with the new capped hunting area. That is a capped hunting issue as its 1 area in the entire game.

Warriors should not have better magical defenses than any semi or pure so its definitely something that should be tweaked. However, it would be a pretty big nerf to 99% of warriors and rogues in the rift. When you factor in the hard RT for melee hunting it would be much worse than what wizards experience now. I hope if that happens it is low on the priority list.

As for mstrike, its too difficult to compare imo because of the difference between melee attacks, spells, mana,stamina and their pools/regen. It does however have a cooldown that varies with weapon speed, in some cases significant RT without good stats or small weapons, a penalty of 30-60+ stamina to use during the downtime depending on the type of mstrike and weapon used which resets the timer. It actually starts to sound similar to the proposed haste and rapid fire changes atleast on the surface. I dont think you can outright say mstrike is too strong in comparison.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 812
Author: GOLDENOAK2
Date: on 09/13/2015 06:15 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


One other thing to consider when comparing physical attacks like Mstrike to magical attacks like cone of whatever and rapid fire...is encumbrance. Last time I checked encumbrance doesn't impact spell RT, but it can literally kill physical attacks. I can't count how many times my 3 second attack escalated to 10 seconds from picking up an odd box or two. Now imagine what that same encumbrance does to an Mstrikes RT.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 813
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/13/2015 06:21 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


I think TGO01's point is that a lot of the warrior's weakness can be trained away. Sorcs and wizards will be absolutely GARBAGE at avoiding Cmans no matter how many points they sink into Cmans, perception, etc...

No wizard, in any hunting ground, at any point in the game, will come close to the cman defense of an equal level warrior.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 814
Author: CAVEMANIAC
Date: on 09/13/2015 09:13 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


That much is definitely true. The only advantage that pures have is overall better crowd control and the ability to stay or return to guarded stance to minimize risk. That does nothing about instagib cmans or creature manuevers.

What is the cman defense of a wizard with 1x PF, 1x CM, cdef, fully trained in the relevant CMAN defending against a like level creature? Less than 50% chance to defend? Less than 25%? Do they have any spells that help with manuever defense? How does that compare in normal circumstances to clerics with 319, sorcs with pestilence, or empaths with 3x PF? Might be a good thing for lore to improve.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 815
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/13/2015 10:03 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


I'm very curious on the the mechanics behind CML defense, the wiki seemed to be missing details on this.

Currently I can only give anecdotal evidence but my wizard with 1x PF and nearly 1x CM (in feint though, not cdef) was basically in the 20-40% range for warding cmans.

As far as I know nothing helps with maneuver defense except 540? But the base proc chance is 10% climbing to 25% @ capped. From my understanding that is below 319 but I only have a little experience using Soul Ward.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 816
Author: ASPEN
Date: on 09/14/2015 06:36 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


>>It's a serious design flaw. I think one time I figured it up that warriors could potentially have a higher TD in the Rift due to being able to wear both minor spirit and minor elemental spells whereas wizards can only wear their elemental spells.

This was the case definitely in GS3, especially when you account for CvA, which of course you must. Wizards had more or less the worst TD in the rift back in those days. It was made better somewhat by the reduction in bonuses from 101 and 107, and the addition of 913.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 817
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/14/2015 09:14 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


Know what else would fix it? Move 401/406/414 to the 500's and replace them with 502/512/514.

>>runs away

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 818
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 09/14/2015 09:42 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


"CML defense" -- various authors

I'm curious: how many Wizards have Enhancives for this? How many have never considered it?

.

My immediate thought whenever I see some kind of glaring weakness in a profession is always Enhancives, and--since I am Premium--I always look at the Premium Points system to see what I could get.

With comparatively little difficulty--four and a half years--I can get (3x 1800 ==) 5400 points for three Level2 Enhancives on some items, each of them for +7 CM/+3 MOC. Then--again, assuming the character is in the Adventurer's Guild, which at this point is pretty much "everyone except my characters"--I look over there and see the possibility of adding to each of those again.

Expecting that the annual "recharge Enhancives with silver" is going to come around again, as it nearly always does during the Holidays at the end of the year, this does not seem too terribly onerous to me.

An extra 20-30 ranks of CM (depending on how many Level2s you want to get, and how high you have your Guild Badge cranked up), at cap, and 10+ ranks of MOC, would seem to be well worth sinking some effort into.

.

Do other people think like this, or do this, or is this really something that people don't even bother with? Despite how much they, you know, complain about access to <whatever these really expensive skills are>? Dodge, say, would be another good place to sink some PremiumPoints.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 819
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/14/2015 09:58 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


My understanding around the CML defense is that ranks of CM itself is of very small benefit, more important is having the maneuver trained, hence training Disarm.

As far as enhancives, I think the other argument is that the benefit from CM is probably less than the benefit from +40 ranks of something more offensive, say spell aiming or fire lore for immo builds. While eventually getting the +40 CM would obviously help anybody to some extent, there's probably purchases that are more price efficient.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 820
Author: DRUMPEL
Date: on 09/14/2015 11:02 AM PDT
Subject: Stone Skin - idea


Any wizard that takes hits, we all know that Stone Skin is just a poor man's damage padding that doesn't really help since the skin tends to shatter quiet easy at low levels/skills.

While the idea of what Stone Skin currently is, is certainly unique from any other spell wizards have to reduce actual damage when getting hit, it just lacks the actual functionality that most (if not all) wizards view it should have.

I know that 520 is (so I've heard) on the list for a re-work, but I figured I'd toss in my two cents.

First things first - drop the vibration flares for causing damage. If something hits you, the vibe flares aren't going to matter and the chance they do any kind of significant damage to your target are slim to none.

Next, remove the summation chart bonus, I'd like to see a straight up shift to skill based for the initial benefits of the spell. IF some fluffy add-on benefit is to be had, then by all means, you can tag to the summation chart.

Stone Skin (520)
Manipulating the elemental forces within your body, you form a layer of hard stone that shifts with your movements. This self-cast spell provides a hardened stone surface that mimics armor protection. The greater the skill in MjE Spell Ranks, the harder the stone becomes.
MjE Spell ranks will determine what armor your Stone Skin can mimic. Starting at 20 ranks puts the spell at Full Leather equivalent. Every 10 MjE spell ranks improves your Stone Skin by 1 ASG. So at 30 ranks your Stone Skin mimics Reinforced Leather. At 40 ranks it mimics Double Leather all the way up to maxing at 110 ranks to mimic Chain Mail. There is no spell hindrance tied to the Stone Skin armor and no armor maneuver penalties either.
The base level of Stone Skin can withstand 100 points of damage before it shatters. Every MjE and every EL:E/2 rank you know earns +1 to the amount of damage your stone skin can survive through before it shatters.
Those that are well trained in EL:E will gain Crit Padding protection on a limited scale, upwards of +5 crit padding. Every 40 ranks of EL:E will provide +1 crit padding protection that maxes at +5 at 200 EL:E ranks.
A couple of examples:
A wizard with 60 MjE Spell ranks and 80 EL:E ranks would have the following benefits:
Armor equivalent to ASG 10 (Cuirbouilli leather)
Stone Skin shatter point: 100 + (60 + (80/2)) = 200 points before it shatters
Crit padding = +2 points
A wizard with 70 MjE Spell ranks and 0 EL:E ranks would have the following benefits:
Armor equivalent to ASG 11 (Studded Leather)
Stone Skin shatter point: 100 + (70) = 170 points before it shatters
No crit padding
Notes
This version of Stone Skin does not absorb damage. The Stone Skin has a shatter point once enough damage is done to the caster.
The spell is not stackable with crit padded armor and the spell only works if you're wearing armor with ASG lower than what the spell provides. If you're wearing ASG 8 (Double Leather), but you have less than 40 MjE spell ranks, the stone skill will fail to form.
Any armor worn under Stone Skin, you will still suffer any penalties tied to the armor; spell hinderance, maneuver penalties, etc...

Something like this can benefit many wizards. I'd love to see my wizard in cloth/robes, but the slight improved protection of full leather makes me wear them due to current game mechanics. Granted the benefit isn't much, but it's better than nothing.

Those that don't train in Earth Lore can still get better armor based protection with enough MjE spell ranks. To those wizards that do train in EL:E, they'll see added benefits. This way those warmages can get improved armor without having to solely rely on dumping a ton of TPs into actual Armor Training, not to mention no casting or true armor restrictions. Less TPs dumped into Armor Training, they can focus more at being a wizard and train in some lores. For the rest of us glass figurines, we can have better armor protection from maneuvers as well. For the younger wizards, sure, they won't benefit much from the spell initially, but this spell should be geared more towards the mid to high levels of the game since it is a 20th level spell.

-Drumpel (bored on his lunch break)

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 821
Author: FIREPHOENIX
Date: on 09/14/2015 12:24 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


GMs mentioned perception has a lot of value on CM at some point during HSN too versus straight combat maneuvers.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 822
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/14/2015 12:52 PM PDT
Subject: Shenanigans!


Hi everybody! It's been super quiet today, so I thought I would give a little sneak peek of things still to come.

> -- START LOG

Your reach inside your hoodie, pull out a helping of mixed dried rat, and place it neatly on the ground. Your reach inside your black shirt, pull out a piece of toasted rat, and place it neatly on the ground. Your reach inside your blue jeans, pull out a tall glass of nectar rat, and place it neatly on the ground. Your reach inside your hoodie, pull out a chunk of crusty rye rat, and place it neatly on the ground. Your reach inside your black shirt, pull out a sugared molasses ginger rat, and place it neatly on the ground. > pre 518 You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cone of Elements... Your spell is ready. > evoke air You gesture. You unleash a compact swirling vortex at a sugared molasses ginger rat! 

 AS: +449 vs DS: +386 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +41 = +144
  ... and hit for 70 points of damage!
  Left arm explodes at the shoulder!

The molasses ginger rat shrieks as it slumps to the ground and licks at its wounded left foreleg. 

  The molasses ginger rat is stunned!

You unleash a compact swirling vortex at a chunk of crusty rye rat! 

 AS: +449 vs DS: +386 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +63 = +166
  ... and hit for 67 points of damage!
  Bones in arm crack and blood vessels burst!
  The crusty rye rat is stunned!

You unleash a compact swirling vortex at a tall glass of nectar rat! 

 AS: +449 vs DS: +386 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +87 = +190
  ... and hit for 101 points of damage!
  Bones in left leg shatter violently leaving behind a bloody stump!

The nectar rat squeals loudly and falls to the ground while frantically gnawing at its wounded left hind leg. 

  The nectar rat is stunned!

You unleash a compact swirling vortex at a piece of toasted rat! 

 AS: +449 vs DS: +386 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +38 = +141
  ... and hit for 57 points of damage!
  Ribs shatter and blood fills lungs!
  The toasted rat is stunned!

You unleash a compact swirling vortex at a helping of mixed dried rat! 

 AS: +449 vs DS: +386 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +15 = +118
  ... and hit for 24 points of damage!
  Ribs crack as chest swells!

> -- END LOG

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 823
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/14/2015 12:57 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Shenanigans!


>> Hi everybody! It's been super quiet today, so I thought I would give a little sneak peek of things still to come.

[WOW!], Wizards are getting the conjure rat spell? Awesome.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 824
Author: GOLDENOAK2
Date: on 09/14/2015 12:59 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Shenanigans!


are the rats going to be in the new capped area...and can we eat their pelts?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 825
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/14/2015 01:00 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Shenanigans!


>> are the rats going to be in the new capped area...and can we eat their pelts?

Honestly, those rats should be edible in their entirety, at least for some of them.

Ooh.. new UAC bite attack? Devour Rat combat maneuver?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 826
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/14/2015 01:01 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Shenanigans!


I'm being shenanigans'ed back at my shenanigans! I don't know how to handle this...

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 827
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/14/2015 01:08 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Shenanigans!


Neat spell. It would be cool to see some of the new ELR updates working in conjunction with Cone of Elements. Major Shock flares for instance would be cool.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 828
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/14/2015 01:27 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Shenanigans!


The purpose was -actually- to show off the new vacuum damage bolt type, which is a new bolt ONLY available to Cone of Elements. (Usual disclaimer involving things which may change in the future.)

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 829
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/14/2015 01:28 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Shenanigans!


I noticed that. Very cool. Here's hoping the number crunchers can use what little you've posted to dial in on the bolt's stats.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 830
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/14/2015 01:30 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Shenanigans!


>> I noticed that. Very cool. Here's hoping the number crunchers can use what little you've posted to dial in on the bolt's stats.

It seems like it has a pretty nice DF and vacuum crits stun a lot.

Was there any lore benefit applied to the bolt's DF?

Also, will Evoke Lightning allow for CoE to do 910 still?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 831
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/14/2015 01:36 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Elemental Bias (508) Updated!


I think you're getting that mixed up with creature maneuvers.

PF >> CMAN >= Perception. (Cman is twice as good as perception in defensive, and equal in offensive).

Perception might help with CML, but I can't find a source to cite.

The above formula comes from https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Creature_maneuver

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 832
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/14/2015 01:43 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Shenanigans!


> Was there any lore benefit applied to the bolt's DF?

Yes. I... Don't remember how much though. I think it was 0.075.

> Also, will Evoke Lightning allow for CoE to do 910 still?

Yes. As it currently stands the cast types and their bolts are: - Air = Vacuum Bolt Thing - Fire = Minor Fire (906) - Earth = Hurl Boulder (510) - Water = Minor Cold (1709) - Lightning = Major Shock (910)

> -- LOG

>pre 518 You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cone of Elements... Your spell is ready. >evoke fire You gesture. You hurl a stream of fire at a sugar rat! 

 AS: +336 vs DS: +264 with AvD: +55 + d100 roll: +16 = +143
  ... and hit for 68 points of damage!
  Flame sets a sugar rat's head alight like a torch.  Burned beyond recognition.
  The sugar rat is stunned!

Some of the flames from the stream of fire linger around a sugar rat. You hurl a stream of fire at some crisp green apple rat! 

 AS: +336 vs DS: +264 with AvD: +55 + d100 roll: +69 = +196
  ... and hit for 134 points of damage!
  Flames engulf body.  Chest left a smoldering ruin.
  The green apple rat is stunned!

Some of the flames from the stream of fire linger around some crisp green apple rat. You hurl a stream of fire at a golden apple rat! 

 AS: +336 vs DS: +250 with AvD: +55 + d100 roll: +72 = +213
  ... and hit for 107 points of damage!
  Flames incinerate left leg to the bone.  Not a pleasant sight.
  The apple rat is knocked to the ground!
  The apple rat is stunned!

Some of the flames from the stream of fire linger around a golden apple rat. > The flames around a golden apple rat continue to burn! 

  ... 20 points of damage!
  Nasty burns to chest make you wish you never heard of heartburn.

> The flames around some crisp green apple rat continue to burn! 

  ... 15 points of damage!
  Burst of flames char abdomen a crispy black.

> The flames around a sugar rat continue to burn! 

  ... 10 points of damage!
  Burst of flames to right arm burns skin bright red.

> The flames around a golden apple rat continue to burn! 

  ... 20 points of damage!
  Nasty burns to back.  Won't be sleeping on that for awhile.

The flames around the rat die down. > The flames around some crisp green apple rat continue to burn! 

  ... 20 points of damage!
  Nasty burns to back.  Won't be sleeping on that for awhile.

The flames around the rat die down. > The flames around a sugar rat continue to burn! 

  ... 15 points of damage!
  Burst of flames char abdomen a crispy black.

The flames around the rat die down.

> -- LOG

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 833
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/14/2015 01:50 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Shenanigans!


>> Yes. I... Don't remember how much though. I think it was 0.075.

That would imply maximum Air Lore bonus, assuming it has the same DF formula as 910.

Also, based on just the general lore bonuses of the spells attached to this, is there any chance that 1709 could get the standard DF from Water Lore applied to it? The DF on the spell is almost identical to 906, and actually less than 910 or 510, so it doesn't sound like an unreasonable request.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 834
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/14/2015 01:52 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Shenanigans!


> That would imply maximum Air Lore bonus, assuming it has the same DF formula as 910.

It does not use the same formula as 910. It uses the more standard version for DF increases to bolt spells.

> Also, based on just the general lore bonuses of the spells attached to this, is there any chance that 1709 could get the standard DF from Water Lore applied to it?

1709 should already have this as far as I can tell. :)

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 835
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/14/2015 01:53 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Shenanigans!


Hey Konacon,

It sounds like you guys have a mind to keep this bolt a Cone exclusive, but has there been any discussion of putting it on the Arcane list?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 836
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/14/2015 01:54 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Shenanigans!


>> It does not use the same formula as 910. It uses the more standard version for DF increases to bolt spells.

So 510 and 906, which cap out at .1 at 200, rather than .075 at 200 like 910 does. Got it.

>> 1709 should already have this as far as I can tell. :)

If so, then great, might just be missing on the wiki. As mentioned, it's enough in line with current spell design that the ommission seemed more odd than anything.



What are the odds of getting INVOKE ACID into there? I know it's asking for more... but again, all those bolts are about the same power...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 837
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/14/2015 01:56 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Shenanigans!


> It sounds like you guys have a mind to keep this bolt a Cone exclusive, but has there been any discussion of putting it on the Arcane list?

I don't know that we have a mind to keep it Cone exclusive. I think that's still a little bit up in the air at the moment. I can tell you that when Cone of Elements goes live it will be Cone exclusive.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 838
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/14/2015 01:58 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Shenanigans!


> What are the odds of getting INVOKE ACID into there?

I can't actually speak to this one. Personally, I think it'd be neat.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 839
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/14/2015 02:01 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Shenanigans!


>> I don't know that we have a mind to keep it Cone exclusive. I think that's still a little bit up in the air at the moment. I can tell you that when Cone of Elements goes live it will be Cone exclusive.

With lightning as Air/Water hybrid, having a pure Air bolt lays a great amount of foundation for having standardized hybridization, such as Water/Earth lore helping the Acid spells in terms of DF, allow Water/Fire to help with 1707 (Minor Steam). We also already have Air/Earth (Sandstorm), and Earth/Fire (Boil Earth) although bolting them into cone would be hard. That just leaves Air/Fire.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 840
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/14/2015 02:02 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Shenanigans!


>> I can't actually speak to this one. Personally, I think it'd be neat.

Consider it requested? Based on the foundation already in place for cone, I imagine it's probably not hard mechanically, and from a balance standpoint that spell isn't out of line with the others already available.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 841
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/14/2015 02:02 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Shenanigans!


Thanks for the information, K.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 842
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 09/14/2015 02:13 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Shenanigans!


Evoke.

Invoke is for scrolls.

.

Though maybe you would consider Hand of Tonis with an Evoke activator, higher mana cost, and a single-target version of the Cone-of-Air-bolt...?  :)

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 843
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/14/2015 02:33 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Shenanigans!


BALEKIA
What are the odds of getting INVOKE ACID into there? I know it's asking for more... but again, all those bolts are about the same power...

> I can't actually speak to this one.

I can speak to it now. How about if we add Minor Acid (904) and throw Minor Steam (1707) on while we're at it.

Acid will require 10 ranks each of water and earth to cast. Steam will require 10 ranks each of water and fire.

> -- LOG

>pre 518 You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cone of Elements... Your spell is ready. >evoke acid You gesture. You hurl a hissing stream of acid at a tawny golden pear rat! 

 AS: +336 vs DS: +198 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +82 = +260
  ... and hit for 134 points of damage!
  Acid causing a gaping hole in the back can't be healthy!
  The pear rat is stunned!
  Some of the acid sticks to a tawny golden pear rat and continues to bubble away!

You hurl a hissing stream of acid at a dollop of mango rat! 

 AS: +336 vs DS: +101 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +17 = +292
  ... and hit for 171 points of damage!
  Acid bath empties chest.  It's a lot cleaner now.
  The mango rat is stunned!
  Some of the acid sticks to a dollop of mango rat and continues to bubble away!

You hurl a hissing stream of acid at a dark purple rat! 

 AS: +336 vs DS: +101 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +3 = +278
  ... and hit for 118 points of damage!
  Acid dissolves abdominal muscles.  No sucking in the gut now!
  The dark purple rat is stunned!
  Some of the acid sticks to a dark purple rat and continues to bubble away!

> Acid continues to eat away at a dark purple rat! 

  ... 25 points of damage!
  Severe burn to the side of the dark purple rat's chest exposes ribs!

> Acid continues to eat away at a dollop of mango rat! 

  ... 30 points of damage!
  Dissolved larynx opens windpipe.  Unfortunately it quickly fills with blood!

> Acid continues to eat away at a tawny golden pear rat! 

  ... 30 points of damage!
  Acid opens midsection.  Loose organs cause the pear rat to watch its step!

> Acid continues to eat away at a dollop of mango rat! 

  ... 35 points of damage!
  The mango rat's arm is drenched in acid!  Flesh and bones are reduced to a smoking slime!

The mango rat shrieks as it slumps to the ground and licks at its wounded left foreleg. The acid quickly bubbles away and disappears. > Acid continues to eat away at a tawny golden pear rat! 

  ... 20 points of damage!
  Acid spray dissolves flesh exposing the muscles over the ribs!

The acid quickly bubbles away and disappears. > Acid continues to eat away at a dark purple rat! 

  ... 25 points of damage!
  Burn to the elbow eats through tendons.  Muscles snap free!

The acid quickly bubbles away and disappears.

> -- LOG

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 844
Author: SPYRIDONM1
Date: on 09/14/2015 02:38 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Shenanigans!


~I noticed that. Very cool. Here's hoping the number crunchers can use what little you've posted to dial in on the bolt's stats. - Observer

Can't get an exact DF yet because the vacuum critical table only lists CS-based damage values. Once the spell goes live, AS-based crit damage can be calculated and added to the table. With that said, if the DFs include a .075 lore bonus, my best guess is that the cloth DF is .710 or .715 (both values are good fits).

Mark

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 845
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/14/2015 02:46 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Shenanigans!


Nice, and it keeps the sticky effect to maintain competitive edge! Much appreciated.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 846
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/14/2015 03:06 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Shenanigans!


Still not excited? I don't know how! Okay fine, the silent treatment is strong in you!

What if we sweeten the deal A LITTLE BIT MORE...

> -- LOG

> look [Konacon's Office] The office is completely barren except for a statue of a man with some dogs curled at his feet placed in the center of the room. Obvious exits: none > pre 518 You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cone of Elements... Your spell is ready. > cast You gesture. Nothing happens. > pre 518 You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cone of Elements... Your spell is ready. > evoke You gesture. You hurl a stream of fire at a bandit! 

 AS: +336 vs DS: +316 with AvD: +55 + d100 roll: +36 = +111
  ... and hit for 23 points of damage!
  Burst of flames char abdomen a crispy black.
  The bandit is stunned!
  The bandit falls out of hiding as a result of the attack!

You hurl a stream of fire at a bandit! 

 AS: +336 vs DS: +304 with AvD: +55 + d100 roll: +80 = +167
  ... and hit for 71 points of damage!
  Extreme heat causes a bandit's right leg to expand and snap.  That must hurt!
  The bandit is knocked to the ground!
  The bandit is stunned!
  The bandit falls out of hiding as a result of the attack!

You hurl a stream of fire at a bandit! 

 AS: +336 vs DS: +316 with AvD: +55 + d100 roll: +95 = +170
  ... and hit for 63 points of damage!
  Flames incinerate left arm to the bone.  Not a pleasant sight.
  The bandit is stunned!
  The bandit falls out of hiding as a result of the attack!

You hurl a stream of fire at a bandit! 

 AS: +336 vs DS: +344 with AvD: +55 + d100 roll: +4 = +51
  A clean miss.

> -- LOG

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 847
Author: TANDL
Date: on 09/14/2015 04:11 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Shenanigans!


Wait, it's been nerfed to summoning hidden bandits instead of rats? I bet it's based on seed 100 (ranks) too isn't it? You've ruined it. Forever.

Tal.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 848
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/14/2015 04:14 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Shenanigans!


> Wait, it's been nerfed to summoning hidden bandits instead of rats? I bet it's based on seed 100 (ranks) too isn't it? You've ruined it. Forever.

Seed 100 for summoning hidden bandits?! That nerf wouldn't even be noticeable. It's seed 0.1.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 849
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/14/2015 05:12 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Shenanigans!


Question for you, Konacon. Is Plasma considered to be spiritual in nature? If not, I could see it fitting as a combination of Fire and Air.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 850
Author: RROY
Date: on 09/15/2015 01:35 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Shenanigans!


Looks like Cone is going to be super! Thanks Konacon!

Just an elf about town...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 851
Author: AUDIOSERF
Date: on 09/15/2015 03:02 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Shenanigans!


The Cone changes look really exciting. Thanks Konacon.

Krakii's idea of EVOKE 505 to produce the new void-crit bolt is worth repeating to see if it's feasible.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 852
Author: DEANSMITH
Date: on 09/15/2015 05:21 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Shenanigans!


Spell looks neat.

I have a few questions:

I see that you mentioned that Steam and Acid will require some lore training to evoke. Are the Air, Earth, Fire, and Water versions available to all Wizards with no additional lore training? Does Lightning require 10 in Air and Water lores?

For elements with special effects on hit (Ignite, Acid Burn, Stun Shock) are the proc rates the same as when you cast their respective single target versions?

I ask this because, as a Fire Mage, the Minor Fire version of this spell looks a tad weak to me. Especially if the Ignite effect only procs 60% of the time with 200 ranks of lore.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 853
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/15/2015 06:31 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Shenanigans!


>> I ask this because, as a Fire Mage, the Minor Fire version of this spell looks a tad weak to me. Especially if the Ignite effect only procs 60% of the time with 200 ranks of lore.

Let's run some numbers to find out!

At 200 Fire Lore ranks, 906 has the following DF:

.767/.555/.445/.423/.403

Similarly, at 200 Air/Water ranks, 910 has the following:

.825/.63/.508/.49/.508

Which yeah, puts it at between 7% (cloth) and 20% (Plate) difference in DF.

However, we also need to compare the AVD's of the two spells. I'm only going to go with 1/8/12/16/20 for brevity:

Fire:

55/45/27/30/26

910:

50/37/39/36/33


That's... A little more all over the place. Fire is 5 points better against cloth (which makes up for a LOT of df difference, and makes it more acccurate), and 8 points better against leather. However, once you get to scale and above, shock has better AVD, which is more of a thematic thing, since it's supposed to be metal conducting the electricty.


Now yes, we also need to compare the fact that there's also stun shock and fire flares on these spells:

Fire flares = 60% Stun Shock = 10% (If the Mage is 100/100 on air/water) or 15% (if the Mage is 200 on air)

Now... I haven't seen hard numbers, but I believe that the Fire damage is at least comparable to the air damage. At the very least, it's not enough to make up for the pretty big difference in damage over time you can expect from the proc rate difference.


Overall, is one better than the other in some circumstances? Absolutely. Against plate, the Shock will probably be much better. Against Cloth, not so much. And there's also the DoT aspect to take into account.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 854
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/15/2015 09:03 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Shenanigans!


> Question for you, Konacon. Is Plasma considered to be spiritual in nature? If not, I could see it fitting as a combination of Fire and Air.

It's my understanding that Plasma is in fact considered to be spiritual in nature. This isn't a definitive yes or no, but my guess is that Plasma Cone is unlikely.

> Krakii's idea of EVOKE 505 to produce the new void-crit bolt is worth repeating to see if it's feasible.

I don't hate this idea, but there would definitely have to be an increased mana cost to come along with this.

> I see that you mentioned that Steam and Acid will require some lore training to evoke. Are the Air, Earth, Fire, and Water versions available to all Wizards with no additional lore training? Does Lightning require 10 in Air and Water lores?

- Steam = 10 Fire, 10 Water - Acid = 10 Earth, 10 Water - Lightning = 10 Air, 10 Water - The other four standards require 20 ranks of their respective element to specify. - Otherwise, the caster's attuned element will be used.

> For elements with special effects on hit (Ignite, Acid Burn, Stun Shock) are the proc rates the same as when you cast their respective single target versions?

Currently they do not have differing proc rates when cast by Cone of Elements. If this ends up too heavily favoring certain elements over others, this is one of the things I would consider changing to try and bring them in line.

> Looks like Cone is going to be super!

I'm happy to see some people excited about this one. This update in particular has some special meaning to me, and it would be really awesome if people liked it.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 855
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 09/15/2015 09:10 AM PDT
Subject: Hand of Tonis (505) Evoke


Hand of Tonis (505) has been updated such that EVOKE is now used to cast Tonis Bolt instead of basing it off of stance.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 856
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/15/2015 09:14 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Shenanigans!


I'm happy to see some people excited about this one. This update in particular has some special meaning to me, and it would be really awesome if people liked it.
~ Konacon

Well I, for one, am excited about this change. Not that I didn't like the old cone, it's amazing, but being able to pick your element (bonus points for the acid/steam addition) is very cool to me and would have helped when I hunted storm giants!

A few people will likely complain about the loss of "all targets" that it used to have, but I think that got to be a bit ridiculous in invasion situations, so that's a balancing change I'm personally willing to accept. It still hits the number of critters I typically fight.

Where did we fall on player-friendlyness? Is this still going to zap people if they walk in at an inopportune time? I'm going to cast it either way, but it would be good to know :D

I think this is more what I was expecting of the ELR, tbh. Visible, consistent and useful additions to spells achievable at reasonable lore numbers.

So you've got one heckler on your side at least ;)

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 857
Author: TANDL
Date: on 09/15/2015 09:27 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Shenanigans!


The separation of the player-friendly and not player-friendly versions via evoke was the only thing needed for me to personally get behind the new cone. I could say more as to why, but I think the fact that several people have already identified it as a stand-out among the ELR speaks for the merits all on it's own.

Taluric.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 858
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 09/15/2015 09:38 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Shenanigans!


>I'm happy to see some people excited about this one. This update in particular has some special meaning to me, and it would be really awesome if people liked it.

Cone of Elements and 415 are my favorite parts of the ELR so far. Even more now that apparently we can EVOKE 518 to keep it player friendly.

Never got the uproar about not having unlimited targets. I can't even remember the last time I saw a good swarm outside of an invasion.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 859
Author: ZENDADA
Date: on 09/15/2015 09:40 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Hand of Tonis (505) Evoke


I notice that INCANT was removed. Was that intended?

The way I used 505 Hand of Tonis was stance off, inc 505, stance def, to disable whatever was right in front of me.

Now with EVOKE its prep 505, stance off, evoke target, stance def, where I have to define the target.

I can adjust but I liked the efficiency of INCANT.

Chad, player of a few

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 860
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/15/2015 09:41 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Shenanigans!


>> Never got the uproar about not having unlimited targets. I can't even remember the last time I saw a good swarm outside of an invasion.


I know my biggest complaint was the player unfriendly part of the announcement. At any practical Level (not a young wizard who uses it occasionally, but a wizard of a strength where it's a viable option) you should have the skills already to get enough targets for it to be worthwhile.

Also, I think we're not putting enough value on the fact that, if nothing else, the new EVOKE verb is taking off like wildfire and introducing a TON of potential growth into the game. When changing a spell involved removing the old one and having to re-balance the spell list, it was a much bigger issue, now that we have EVOKE GM's can just twist a spell a little bit without needing to completely redo the circle stack.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 861
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/15/2015 09:50 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Hand of Tonis (505) Evoke


>> I can adjust but I liked the efficiency of INCANT.


My understanding is that there's probably going to be a shakedown period where players and standard behavior need to be adjusted. Others have mentioned this, and I believe a few people are accidentally smacking themselves with spells when they EVOKE where they were used to auto-targeting with INCANT.

Odds are good we need a set of flags to say whether INCANT and EVOKE auto-target independently.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 862
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/15/2015 09:50 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Hand of Tonis (505) Evoke


Yeah, I hate to do this since it's gotta be annoying for whoever just coded this. But I agree, the convenience of incanting outweighs the control of being able to ward in offensive (which I would never do, anyway).

In fact, I never ever ever use this as a warding spell heh. Air Bolts all the way, baby!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 863
Author: DEANSMITH
Date: on 09/15/2015 09:52 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Shenanigans!


>Now yes, we also need to compare the fact that there's also stun shock and fire flares on these spells:

Contemplar did mention that Stun Shock is applied based on Seed 5 EL:A Skill and not ranks.

Looking at maximizing it for damage, the best split for the Stun Shock effect is probably 94/108 Air/Water because this allows a 15% chance for activation at 16 seconds (+2 flares). The end result is that, without looking at numbers and assuming all damage/stuns are equal, the Stun Shock effect goes off about a quarter as much but flares for twice as much. So Ignite would be about twice as powerful as Stun Shock in this case.

I don't really think that that is enough to bridge the gap between the general effectiveness of Major Shock vs. Minor Fire.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 864
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 09/15/2015 09:54 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Hand of Tonis (505) Evoke


BALEKIA
My understanding is that there's probably going to be a shakedown period where players and standard behavior need to be adjusted. Others have mentioned this, and I believe a few people are accidentally smacking themselves with spells when they EVOKE where they were used to auto-targeting with INCANT.
Odds are good we need a set of flags to say whether INCANT and EVOKE auto-target independently.

Yeah, we probably are going to need to create a player flag to let their INCANT auto-EVOKE spells.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 865
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 09/15/2015 09:54 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Hand of Tonis (505) Evoke


>Odds are good we need a set of flags to say whether INCANT and EVOKE auto-target independently.

I also think that evoking with no target should act like incant instead of self-targeting, although I haven't had the chance to test if it does that already if someone could please clarify, I don't have game access at the moment.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 866
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/15/2015 09:58 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Hand of Tonis (505) Evoke


>> Yeah, we probably are going to need to create a player flag to let their INCANT auto-EVOKE spells.

Much as I LOVE the new Evoke.. we may have to flip it backwards.. and allow EVOKE to Auto INCANT.

The reason is that if you have a flag so that INCANT always EVOKES, then you run into an issue because it becomes difficult to switch back and forth on the fly, and for immolation that might really matter. If instead you can somehow bind the Auto Target aspect to EVOKE rather than INCANT, then the person can INCANT when they want standard, EVOKE when they want alternate, and get auto-targeting in both situations.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 867
Author: DEANSMITH
Date: on 09/15/2015 10:00 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Hand of Tonis (505) Evoke


>I also think that evoking with no target should act like incant instead of self-targeting, although I haven't had the chance to test if it does that already if someone could please clarify, I don't have game access at the moment.

>>prep 903 >Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Water... >Your spell is ready. >>evoke >You gesture. >You hurl a seething blast of steam at yourself!

It does self target.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 868
Author: ZENDADA
Date: on 09/15/2015 10:02 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Hand of Tonis (505) Evoke


I also think that evoking with no target should act like incant instead of self-targeting, although I haven't had the chance to test if it does that already if someone could please clarify, I don't have game access at the moment.

Open evoke targets yourself currently.

Chad, player of a few

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 869
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 09/15/2015 10:08 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Hand of Tonis (505) Evoke


>Open evoke targets yourself currently.

BOO, HISS

THROW TOMATOES:: ::DRY OUT KONACON'S LAWN::
)



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 870
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/15/2015 10:14 AM PDT
Subject: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!


Hi everybody! No shenanigans, because this is complicated and I want to do my best to get it right!

First off, Cone of Lightning has been changed to Cone of Elements! Here are the details, and I'll be around for Q&A most of the day!

The spell can be cast using CAST or EVOKE: - When CAST, the spell will be player friendly and hit up to (2 + (Elemental Mana Control Skill / 75)) targets. - When EVOKED, the spell will be group friendly and hit up to (5 + (Elemental Mana Control Skill / 50)) targets. -- Also when EVOKED, the spell will hit hidden/invisible targets. On a successful hit, the target will fall out of hiding/invisibility.

When casting this spell, the caster's attunement will be used to determine the bolt that is hurled out by this spell. There is also the option to specify the type of element the caster would like to use if they meet the lore requirements for that type (e.g. 'CAST COLD'):

- Fire attuned Cone will use Minor Fire (906). -- 'CAST/EVOKE FIRE' requires 20 ranks of Elemental Lore, Fire.

- Water attuned Cone will use Minor Cold (1709). -- 'CAST/EVOKE COLD' requires 20 ranks of Elemental Lore, Water.

- Earth attuned Cone will use Hurl Boulder (510). -- 'CAST/EVOKE EARTH' requires 20 ranks of Elemental Lore, Earth.

- Air attuned Cone will use a new vacuum bolt that is currently only attainable with Cone of Elements. -- 'CAST/EVOKE AIR' requires 20 ranks of Elemental Lore, Air.

- Lightning attuned Cone will use Major Shock (910). -- 'CAST/EVOKE LIGHTNING' requires 10 ranks of Elemental Lore, Air and 10 ranks of Elemental Lore, Water.

- Minor Acid (904) is not available through an unspecified cast. It is lore cast only. -- 'CAST/EVOKE ACID' requires 10 ranks of Elemental Lore, Earth and 10 ranks of Elemental Lore, Water.

- Minor Steam (1707) is not available through an unspecified cast. It is lore cast only. -- 'CAST/EVOKE STEAM' requires 10 ranks of Elemental Lore, Fire and 10 ranks of Elemental Lore, Water.

- Minor Water (903) is not available through an unspecified cast. It is lore cast only. -- 'CAST/EVOKE WATER' requires 20 ranks of Elemental Lore, Water.

Questions? Comments? Logs of you trying this out? I'd love to hear anything you have to say about all of this. I hope you all like it!

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 871
Author: GS4-RETSER
Date: on 09/15/2015 10:23 AM PDT
Subject: Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!


What lores do we need for cone of Konacon?


-Retser- Icemule Guru Halfling Guru

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 872
Author: DEANSMITH
Date: on 09/15/2015 10:25 AM PDT
Subject: Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!


Thanks, CONEacon!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 873
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/15/2015 10:28 AM PDT
Subject: Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!


'EVOKE/CAST WATER' for Minor Water (903) has now been added, requiring 20 ranks of Elemental Lore, Water. (The original announcement was also modified to reflect this.)

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 874
Author: MOURNE
Date: on 09/15/2015 10:36 AM PDT
Subject: Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!


My weezard needs a few more levels to appreciate this one properly, but your earlier logs looked like great fun, and the huge range of elements available makes me drool. Thanks!

--- With great effort you combine the value of your two bloodscrip, leaving you with a single parchment bloodscrip valued at 2112. You think to yourself, "Another toy that helped destroy the elder race of man..."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 875
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 09/15/2015 10:38 AM PDT
Subject: Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!


I might have to hunt bandits to see how it works with my MRs and scrolls

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 876
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 09/15/2015 11:10 AM PDT
Subject: Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!


This spell is fun. I attuned back to random for a while just for the fireworks.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 878
Author: TANDL
Date: on 09/15/2015 11:14 AM PDT
Subject: Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!


So, what's the new mnemonic?

Tal.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 879
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/15/2015 11:16 AM PDT
Subject: Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!


> So, what's the new mnemonic?

CONEELE

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 880
Author: TANDL
Date: on 09/15/2015 11:20 AM PDT
Subject: Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!


Now, just to make sure I understand this right... random attunement will use any of the base spell effects (not listed as lore only) at random. Being actively fire attuned will automatically use fire, even without the lore. Being anything but fire attuned, and having 20 ranks of fire lore, allows the fire version to be cast?

Tal.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 881
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/15/2015 11:25 AM PDT
Subject: Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!


> Now, just to make sure I understand this right... random attunement will use any of the base spell effects (not listed as lore only) at random. Being actively fire attuned will automatically use fire, even without the lore. Being anything but fire attuned, and having 20 ranks of fire lore, allows the fire version to be cast?

This is correct. Here's the process just in case that helps:

- Check to see if a specific element was requested. If it was, check to see if they have the required lore. If they do, use it. If they don't, let them know and move to the next line. - Check to see if they're attuned to anything. If they are and it's not random, use it (Water attunement uses COLD in this case). Otherwise, move to the next line. - Pick a random element from AIR, COLD, FIRE, EARTH, and LIGHTNING.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 882
Author: TANDL
Date: on 09/15/2015 11:29 AM PDT
Subject: Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!


Your original post was clear on the matter, I'm just updating the info for the spell and wanted to be 100% sure I wasn't being dense somehow (it happens).

Tal.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 884
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/15/2015 12:50 PM PDT
Subject: Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!


Hey! So we found a work-around today to make the EVOKE version work similar to INCANTing. (IE: you can put it on a macro).

Use the boot-cast.

So, for me, it's PREP 518 EVOKE AIR BOOT

Or in a macro: \xprep 518\revoke air boot\r

This will clear the room with the group-friendly version.

Cheers!

[EDIT: reposted to switch 'cast' to 'evoke' whoopsies!]

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 885
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 09/15/2015 12:58 PM PDT
Subject: Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!


KEITHOBAD
Hey! So we found a work-around today to make the EVOKE version work similar to INCANTing. (IE: you can put it on a macro).
Use the boot-cast.
So, for me, it's
PREP 518
EVOKE AIR BOOT
Or in a macro: \xprep 518\revoke air boot\r
This will clear the room with the group-friendly version.
Cheers!

What am I missing? How is this different than just "evoke air"?

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 886
Author: AUDIOSERF
Date: on 09/15/2015 01:04 PM PDT
Subject: Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!


Unless I'm mistaken the issue is that Evoke lacks the auto-target capability that Incant offers for attack spells.

IE - inc 505 will use the CS version on a creature in the room evoke 505 will shoot a 505 bolt at yourself, won't auto-target the same creature in the room

IMO, Evoke should act just like Incant, but for the alternate version of an applicable spell.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 887
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 09/15/2015 01:20 PM PDT
Subject: Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!


AUDIOSERF
Unless I'm mistaken the issue is that Evoke lacks the auto-target capability that Incant offers for attack spells.
IE - inc 505 will use the CS version on a creature in the room
evoke 505 will shoot a 505 bolt at yourself, won't auto-target the same creature in the room
IMO, Evoke should act just like Incant, but for the alternate version of an applicable spell.

You don't need to target 518 and doing so doesn't provide any benefit though. For 505, it's just prep 505, evoke <target>.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 888
Author: TANDL
Date: on 09/15/2015 01:52 PM PDT
Subject: Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!


So last question, I think. All of the 'spells' used within Cone have DFs modified to match 910 and are further increased based on their specific elemental lores associated with the effects?

I'm 99% sure this has already been stated to be true, but I'm having trouble finding the post(s) that said so and I want to put it in the ELR saved posts page.

Tal.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 889
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 09/15/2015 01:59 PM PDT
Subject: Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!


>So last question, I think. All of the 'spells' used within Cone have DFs modified to match 910 and are further increased based on their specific elemental lores associated with the effects?

Pretty sure the spells use their normal DF. i.e. Cone of Fire uses 906's DF, as opposed to casting 906 with 910's DF.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 890
Author: SPYRIDONM1
Date: on 09/15/2015 01:59 PM PDT
Subject: Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!


>So last question, I think. All of the 'spells' used within Cone have DFs modified to match 910 and are further increased based on their specific elemental lores associated with the effects?

>I'm 99% sure this has already been stated to be true, but I'm having trouble finding the post(s) that said so and I want to put it in the ELR saved posts page. - Tal.

That's not correct. They each use their own damage tables.

Mark

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 891
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/15/2015 02:02 PM PDT
Subject: Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!


> All of the 'spells' used within Cone have DFs modified to match 910 and are further increased based on their specific elemental lores associated with the effects?

Hate to be the bearer of bad new, but no. Quite literally it is casting the actual spell (903, 906, etc.) which means that each spell/bolt uses its own DF, Lores, etc.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 893
Author: TANDL
Date: on 09/15/2015 02:13 PM PDT
Subject: Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!


That works perfectly well for me. I'd rather ask and get a wrong assumption corrected than assume and be wrong continuously.

Tal.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 894
Author: GAROFALOA
Date: on 09/15/2015 02:40 PM PDT
Subject: Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!


Is it going to automatically cast to the element to which you are attuned? Didn't seem quit clear whether it will or not in the announce If not....could we add that functionality

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 895
Author: GAROFALOA
Date: on 09/15/2015 02:42 PM PDT
Subject: Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!


That also means I get 906's Chance to ignite things??? Awesome!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 896
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/15/2015 02:42 PM PDT
Subject: Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!


> Is it going to automatically cast to the element to which you are attuned?

Yes. It automatically casts as the element you are attuned to if you don't specify an element.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 897
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/15/2015 02:42 PM PDT
Subject: Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!


> That also means I get 906's Chance to ignite things??? Awesome!

Yep! Set the whole room on fire!

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 898
Author: GAROFALOA
Date: on 09/15/2015 02:55 PM PDT
Subject: Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!


All I have to say is....reading is fundamental. I saw it after I posted. Next release: targeted meteor swarm??? ;)

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 899
Author: ZENDADA
Date: on 09/15/2015 03:26 PM PDT
Subject: Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!


This is such a great change to 518! Really. Not only is it better it allows wizards of all elements, and even mixed elements, some flavor, not to mention the true elementalist has a Cone for every occasion.

Looking at the hybrids, dual lores unlocking different flares, there are some spaces that could be filled. Here is a table of lore mixing as it stands.

Air Fire Water Earth Cold
Air Air (Vacuum) Lightning
Fire Fire Steam
Water Lightning Steam Water Acid
Earth Acid Earth (Vibe)
Cold Cold (Ice)

Cold is the odd one out. No idea what to do with this. It's just something a water mage has access to that other magi don't. Thats cool.

To fill in the other blanks I propose using some other already implemented flares. My proposal for those flares are italicized in the chart below.

Air Fire Water Earth Cold
Air Air (Vacuum) Plasma Lightning Unbalance
Fire Plasma Fire Steam Disintigration
Water Lightning Steam Water Acid
Earth Unbalance Disintigration Acid Earth (Vibe)
Cold Cold (Ice)


Chad, player of a few

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 900
Author: LORDKRIP
Date: on 09/15/2015 03:28 PM PDT
Subject: Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!


Beautiful.


Peace cannot be kept by force; it can only be achieved by understanding. - Albert Einstein

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 901
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/15/2015 03:31 PM PDT
Subject: Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!


I've been partial to the suggestion of a sticky magma bolt for earth and fire.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 902
Author: ZENDADA
Date: on 09/15/2015 03:35 PM PDT
Subject: Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!


I've been partial to the suggestion of a sticky magma bolt for earth and fire.
OBSERVER

Myself as well. I'd like Sandstorm as the air/earth hybrid. I tried to stay within the confines of what is already established.

Chad, player of a few

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 903
Author: TANDL
Date: on 09/15/2015 04:24 PM PDT
Subject: Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!


Next question, Snow Crones are listed as being able to reflect cone of lightning. Are they able to reflect cone of elements lightning variant? What about the rest of them (fire, acid, etc)?

Tal.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 904
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/15/2015 04:41 PM PDT
Subject: Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!


So I did some testing, (at great personal risk, I might add) and it looks like reflector critters like storm giants reflect all version of 518. I kind of thought that would be one of the main benefits of choosing the element.


What am I missing? How is this different than just "evoke air"?
GameMaster Estild

@#$! I think I got trolled. People were saying it was casting on the wizard (similar to how 505 now works).

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 905
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 09/15/2015 04:57 PM PDT
Subject: Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!


Still catching up on the posts from the last day and a half but this looks like fun. Any chance to have some sort of mechanism to set a preferred element so it doesn't need to be selected each time it is cast (outside of elemental attunement I mean). Alternatively, any chance the element could be pre-selected as part of the prep phrase (e.g prep 518 fire)?

Proposed process:

- Check to see if a specific element was requested. If it was, check to see if they have the required lore. If they do, use it. If they don't, let them know and move to the next line. - Check to see if a specific element has been set via SET coneelement (or prep 518 element). If it has, check to see if they have the required lore. If they do, use it. If they don't, let them know and move to the next line. - Check to see if they're attuned to anything. If they are and it's not random, use it (Water attunement uses COLD in this case). Otherwise, move to the next line. - Pick a random element from AIR, COLD, FIRE, EARTH, and LIGHTNING.

-- Robert

Fluke in the programming, or just your average everyday Konacode? ~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 906
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/15/2015 05:21 PM PDT
Subject: Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!


>> Cold is the odd one out. No idea what to do with this. It's just something a water mage has access to that other magi don't. Thats cool.

The short answer... Cold is the bolt that makes sense for the power of the spell, it can stand against 906, 910, and 510. 903 is actually a little too weak for this spell, when considered in isolation. Now, obviously, because cold is always a choice, the spell itself (518) is just great, and having water as an option for OTHER reasons (to set up 910 mostly) can only increase flexibility (in other words, no request here to make the Water bolt in this stronger, because the inclusion is honestly gravy).

I'm also hoping that over time the hybrid lores can be filled out. It could be interesting to see what happens if a Bard somehow gained reason to go 75/25 split or something with Fire, Earth, or Water.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 907
Author: THROGG
Date: on 09/15/2015 06:54 PM PDT
Subject: Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!


I'm confused. OK, the old incant no longer works as it used to, yes? What is the format for casting a spell at a critter? Do I have to actually prep a spell first? Do I have to name a target? If I want to cast 906 at a frost giant, how do I command that to happen?

Prep 906\r evoke\r or maybe just evoke 906\r or would it be prep 906\r evoke giant\r

What happens if I still use Incant? Incant 906\r targets myself?

Cone of elements ... prep & cast vs prep & evoke? Or just evoke? One command is player friendly and one is only group friendly?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 908
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/15/2015 07:08 PM PDT
Subject: Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!


906 hasn't changed, you can still incant 906.

If you incant 518 it will: 1) Check if you're attuned, if so-use that element, else-use random(air,ice,fire,rock,electric) The new max number of targets for incanted version is (2 + (Elemental Mana Control Skill / 75)) and is player friendly.


If you prep 518 and then EVOKE it behaves exactly the same way but with a target count of (5 + (Elemental Mana Control Skill / 50)) and is player unfriendly. Fine for groups though.

Now if you want to use an element that you cannot attune, you need to prep 518, EVOKE <element>. This has a requirement for each element described in the first post.

Hopefully that helped, this is a pretty complicated spell!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 909
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/15/2015 07:09 PM PDT
Subject: Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!


>>Now if you want to use an element that you cannot attune, you need to prep 518, EVOKE . This has a requirement for each element described in the first post.


Dernit I should have said "you need to prep 518, then EVOKE or CAST <element>"

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 910
Author: ERYKK2
Date: on 09/15/2015 07:39 PM PDT
Subject: Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!


AUDIOSERF
Unless I'm mistaken the issue is that Evoke lacks the auto-target capability that Incant offers for attack spells.
IE - inc 505 will use the CS version on a creature in the room
evoke 505 will shoot a 505 bolt at yourself, won't auto-target the same creature in the room
IMO, Evoke should act just like Incant, but for the alternate version of an applicable spell.
You don't need to target 518 and doing so doesn't provide any benefit though. For 505, it's just prep 505, evoke .
GameMaster Estild

I think the request is to:

prep 505 evoke And it auto-targets a creature in the room.

So you don't have to evoke <target>, you can just evoke, without killing yourself.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 911
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/15/2015 07:52 PM PDT
Subject: Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!


>> So you don't have to evoke , you can just evoke, without killing yourself.

This item has been acknowledged. New ELR stuff is now on I think four different sub-boards, so it's hard to keep track, but the issue has been recognized as something that needs some sort of fix.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 912
Author: WINTERMYST
Date: on 09/15/2015 09:21 PM PDT
Subject: Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!


I sure hope evoke get's fixed in stormfront those of us that have bad arthritis and use the combat window would really appreciate this

You also see the Shilarra disk etched with the image of a Vathor

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 913
Author: PCOFFEY77
Date: on 09/16/2015 02:53 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Hand of Tonis (505) Evoke


>Yeah, we probably are going to need to create a player flag to let their INCANT auto-EVOKE spells.

Please do this!!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 914
Author: AMMINAR
Date: on 09/16/2015 12:50 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Hand of Tonis (505) Evoke


Yeah, we probably are going to need to create a player flag to let their INCANT auto-EVOKE spells.
GameMaster Estild

Personally I've never been 100% happy with the CHANNELINCANT flag. With or without this flag, you end up typing an extra line to switch between versions of the spell. It's convenient if you have an overwhelming default, but it seems like wizards are especially likely to be more switching between these new versions, and no matter how you slice it, it's an extra line -- either switching the flag or prep/casting (and specifying a target).

Might I suggest an alternative to the flag solution -- a new verb? I would suggest INCANTEVOKE or simply IEVOKE -- automatically prepare and cast an EVOKEd spell at a default target just like INCANT.

(And if you go this route, could spiritual folks get ICHANNEL as well?)

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 915
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 09/16/2015 02:58 PM PDT
Subject: Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!


>Hate to be the bearer of bad new, but no. Quite literally it is casting the actual spell (903, 906, etc.) which means that each spell/bolt uses its own DF, Lores, etc.

Besides the damage factor increase, does any other lore benefit carry over?

Specifically, if you EVOKE ACID with 30 ranks of water lore, and 10 ranks of earth, will it use Major Acid?

10 ranks of earth also provides an acid burn chance in Minor Acid, does that carry over in either cast acid or evoke acid (evoke only if the Major Acid does not carry over)?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 916
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/16/2015 03:06 PM PDT
Subject: Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!


It won't switch to major acid (which would be amazing for a room full of critters) but it will gain any bonuses that spell would have. 906 can cause burn, 903 soak, 910 shock stun, 904 acid DoTs, etc..

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 917
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/16/2015 03:13 PM PDT
Subject: Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!


>> It won't switch to major acid (which would be amazing for a room full of critters)

Amazing, and possibly a bit TOO powerful, with enough MOC you'd be looking at some pretty serious boltage.

I could get behind the new Elemental Storm in the 925 slot, that does Cone of Elements with Ball versions. Make it so!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 918
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 09/16/2015 03:14 PM PDT
Subject: Re: ELR - Cone of Lightning (518) Updated!


Thanks, Keith. I would love to see these things in full action, like an evoke water followed up with an evoke lightning. Do it now while you can rapid fire!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 919
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 09/16/2015 04:13 PM PDT
Subject: A Hasty proposal (506)...


Problem statement:

- Haste has been identified by the powers that be to be 'too powerful'. Which elements/usage of it are too powerful has not been clearly stated or identified by the development team. - Warmages are expected to still be viable post changes. It isn't clear if this is expected to be via haste or some new mechanisms that have not yet been revealed.

Assumptions (mine):

- It is 100% up time cast on other and ease of 100% up time cast on self that are of primary concern. - Warmages will still be viable via haste usage post spell updates. - Given the ELR spells released to date, it seems logical that Elemental Lore, Earth is the expected lore training for warmages. - Haste should still be a useful and class defining spell for wizards post spell updates.

Proposal:

506-Haste

Invoking the magic of this spell distorts time around the target. To the recipient, the world seems to slow down, allowing them to react more quickly than naturally possible. The target's roundtime will be lower than normal. How much lower depends on the skill of the caster as well as the roundtime of the action being attempted.

Note: This spell reduces the roundtime, it does not remove it. Regardless of how much faster the target is able to move, they will never have a 0 roundtime. There will always be at least a 1 second RT. (Note: spell would function similar to as it does today but without the bonuses for Elt Lore, Air thresholds and modified MjE thresholds).

Final RT = (RT - [1 + X ]) * (75 - Y)% X = Major Elemental Bonus; Increases by +1 at 24 ranks, 51 ranks and 100 ranks Y = Major Elemental Spells Known / 3

The base duration of this spell is 30 seconds increased by 5 seconds for each SEED 8 Ranks in Elemental Lore, Air. At 30 Ranks of Elemental Lore, Air the caster gains the ability to cast a reduced duration version of the spell on others where the duration is 15 seconds, increased by 5 seconds for each SEED 8 Ranks in Elemental Lore, Air (so at the 30 ranks required to cast the spell on others the base duration would be 30 seconds).

Unfortunately, the power of the spell does not fuel all of the extra energy needed to operate at an accelerated rate. As such there will be a cooldown recovery period at the expiration of the spell during which the spell cannot be recast on the recipient, equivalent to the number of seconds that the spell recipient spent hasted. Training in Elemental Lore, Earth can partially, or even entirely, negate this effect. 10 seconds is reduced from the cool down period for each SEED 8 Ranks in Elemental Lore, Earth training that the spell recipient possesses. Note, if the spell is terminated early (STOPped or Dispeled) then the cooldown/recovery period would be equal to the actual number of seconds spent hasted vs. the full duration of the spell had it note been terminated early.

Examples:

1) A wizard with 0 ranks in Elt Lore, Air and 0 ranks in Elt Lore, Earth can only self cast the spell for 30 seconds duration with a 30 seconds cooldown period.

2) A wizard with 0 ranks in Elt Lore, Air and 27 ranks in Elt Lore, Earth can only self cast the spell for 30 seconds duration with a 0 second cooldown period.

3) A wizard with 63 ranks in Elt Lore, Air and 63 ranks in Elt Lore, Earth can self cast the spell for 60 seconds duration with a 0 second cooldown period. They can also cast the spell on others for a 45 second duration (cooldown period will depend on the targets Elt Lore, Earth training).

4) A wizard with 109 ranks in Elt Lore, Air and 93 ranks in Elt Lore, Earth can self cast the spell for 75 seconds duration with a 0 second cooldown period. They can also cast the spell on other for a 60 second duration (cooldown period will depend on the targets Elt Lore, Earth training).

Notes:

This is a slightly weaker version of the current haste (in terms of direct RT reduction for short durations) that has a higher mana cost to maintain (double the current spell base on the base 30 seconds duration) but which has a (reasonably) low entry threshold for continuous use for warmages who choose to train in Elt Lore, Earth. The spell should still perform well in a utility and defensive capacity for wizards or others. The overall haste up time can be scaled up via training in Elt Lore, Air, and the cool down period can be scaled down via training in Elt Lore, Earth based on the specific wizards desire. There is definitely room for some tweaking but I was fairly pleased with the fairly low entry point for warmages who wanted 100% up time and how it scaled overall for someone very dedicated in this training path to be slightly improved (self cast) vs the current version of the spell. I additionally liked that it allows the wizards to establish (based on lore training) their cooldown time to something similar to what has been proposed by the Dev team down to 100% up time.

Thought, suggestions, tweaks?

-- Robert aka Faulkil

Fluke in the programming, or just your average everyday Konacode? ~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 920
Author: ERYKK2
Date: on 09/16/2015 10:41 PM PDT
Subject: Re: A Hasty proposal (506)...


Final RT = (RT - [1 + X ]) * (75 - Y)%
X = Major Elemental Bonus; Increases by +1 at 24 ranks, 51 ranks and 100 ranks
Y = Major Elemental Spells Known / 3

Base RT=5 1 + X (X = 0 because 6 ranks) (5 - 1 = 4) 1 + X (X = +1 because 24 ranks) (5 - 2 = 3) 1 + X (X = +2 because 51 ranks) (5 - 3 = 2)

Y = 6/3 @ 6 ranks = 2 Y = 24/3 @ 24 ranks = 8 Y = 51/3 @ 51 ranks = 17

75 - 2 = 73 75 - 8 = 67 75 - 17 = 58

4 * 73% (at 6 ranks) = 2.92 3 * 67% (at 24 ranks) = 2.01 2 * 58% (at 51 ranks) = 1.16

Is my math correct? So no change in RT between 6 ranks and 51 ranks?

2) A wizard with 0 ranks in Elt Lore, Air and 27 ranks in Elt Lore, Earth can only self cast the spell for 30 seconds duration with a 0 second cooldown period.

I think I could be ok with this. It really slows down low level warmages, because of mana and duration. Mid levels will see an increase in mana cost, but it should be doable.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 921
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 09/17/2015 06:33 AM PDT
Subject: Re: A Hasty proposal (506)...


>> Is my math correct? So no change in RT between 6 ranks and 51 ranks?

Depending on if we Trunc() or Round(), let's say Trunc() then you would actually see a drop at 27 ranks for Bast RT = 5.

Base RT=5 1 + X (X = +1 because 27 ranks) (5 - 2 = 3) Y = 27/3 @ 27 ranks = 9 75 - 9 = 66 3 * 66% (at 27 ranks) = 1.98

The thresholds could be adjusted a bit to get the desired results. It might also be worth adding a fourth threshold for MjE ranks since we lose 3 from the original formula (they were provided by training in Elt Lore, Air but I re-purposed this lore for the variable spell duration) and I only added one back for MjE ranks (over the original formula).

-- Robert

Fluke in the programming, or just your average everyday Konacode? ~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 922
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 09/17/2015 10:25 AM PDT
Subject: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


Chromatic Circle (502) has been released. When cast, a target is surrounded by a circle of elements and must ward against the spell. Failure to do will result in elemental damage. The caster's attunement determines the type of element used. Based upon the element used, the caster's Elemental Lore training will then cause the target to be vulnerable (a Defensive Strength penalty) to follow up bolt attacks of the same element. Specifically, a fire attuned wizard will use their Elemental Lore, Fire training to lower the target's DS against Minor Fire (906) and Major Fire (908). The DS penalty is calculated as (2 * seed 1 summation), such that at 55 lore ranks, it results in -20 DS for the target. The vulnerability lasts for 15 seconds or 2 attacks. In addition, weapon attacks enhanced by the Elemental Blade (411) spell that also match the same element as 502 will also cause the target to suffer the same DS penalty.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 923
Author: CIRCADIANZEBRA
Date: on 09/17/2015 10:34 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


In addition, weapon attacks enhanced by the Elemental Blade (411) spell that also match the same element as 502 will also cause the target to suffer the same DS penalty.
GameMaster Estild

Ooh, a DS push down for bolting and swinging? I like it.

Question: is this for anyone swinging an e-bladed weapon? So group hunting could be enhanced by this combo, or just for the wizard that cast Chromatic Circle?

Also, is there a way to force away from the attuned element at a certain lore threshold?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 924
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/17/2015 10:37 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


Is this Lightning attuned compatible for the DS penalty on follow-up?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 925
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 09/17/2015 10:55 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


Will the alchemy recipes for Spell Store transfer to Chromatic Circle?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 926
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 09/17/2015 11:06 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


further request for Spell Store to be revived and moved to the Arcane Circle


KIDDING! :D

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 927
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/17/2015 11:12 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


>> further request for Spell Store to be revived and moved to the Arcane Circle

I was debating trying to come up with an angry rant about how having Spell Store removed completely destroys my play style, and how I'm angry and disappointed.

Unfortunately, the spell is SO dead weight that I got nothing.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 928
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 09/17/2015 11:21 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


>> Chromatic Circle (502) has been released ~Esdtild

Thanks for creating such a useful spell for one of our empty spell slots!

-- Robert

Fluke in the programming, or just your average everyday Konacode? ~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 929
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 09/17/2015 11:24 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


>In addition, weapon attacks enhanced by the Elemental Blade (411) spell that also match the same element as 502 will also cause the target to suffer the same DS penalty.

suggestion for any flaring weapon of the same element to cause the DS penalty. Maybe this can be unlocked with lore ranks.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 930
Author: LALAKERCLAN
Date: on 09/17/2015 12:21 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Feedback and Questions


I spent about an hour testing 502 out. Fortunately (I'm a fence-sitter) I am not attuned to a particular element, so I got to see all of the various elemental types.

1. Elemental lores seem to help quite a bit in terms of the crit damage. I have 38 ranks of fire lore and no other lores. For example, compare:

You gesture at a skeletal lord. A skeletal lord is suddenly surrounded by a circle of shifting stones. 

 CS: +257 - TD: +141 + CvA: +1 + d100: +67 == +184
 Warding failed!

The shifting stones quickly orbit the lord, causing 33 points of damage! 

  ... 10 points of damage!
  Light blow to right leg.
  The shifting stones leave the lord off balance and exposed to the elements.

To:

A skeletal lord is suddenly surrounded by a circle of flickering flames. 

 CS: +257 - TD: +135 + CvA: +1 + d100: +55 == +178
 Warding failed!

The flickering flames quickly swirl around the lord, causing 35 points of damage! 

  ... 25 points of damage!
  The flickering flames leave the lord off balance and exposed to the elements.

Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

My "best" crit:

A skeletal lord is suddenly surrounded by a circle of flickering flames. 

 CS: +257 - TD: +138 + CvA: +1 + d100: +85 == +205
 Warding failed!

The flickering flames quickly swirl around the lord, causing 35 points of damage! 

  ... 70 points of damage!
  Back burnt to the bone.  Smoke curls up from what's left of a skeletal lord.

You hear a sound like a weeping child as a white glow separates itself from the skeletal lord's body as it rises, disappearing into the heavens. The skeletal lord falls to the ground motionless.

Conclusion: elemental lores are a key component of the damage of this spell.

2. CHANNEL does not work.

3. Offensive stance does not seem to help.

4. Having an open hand does not seem to help.

5. The DS pushdown is neat and is a very useful single-target opener where you can't fail to ward the target. A successful cast of 502 means the target is stunned and gets a DS pushdown...seems to me to be basically the same as prone. A 502 followed by 906 was more or less just as good as 410 - 906, for less cost. If you can fail your warding, obviously, you're better off just using e-wave before bolting.

6. Is the initial "damage" capped? At any particular number?

7. Can consideration be given to allow a mage to use an element to which they are not "attuned" given appropriate lore training?

8. Can different combinations of lores allow for different crit types? For example, 20 earth/20 water allows 502 acid? 20 water/20 fire allows 502 steam, etc.? Maybe through the use of the evoke verb?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 931
Author: ASHRAAM
Date: on 09/17/2015 12:25 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Feedback and Questions


>> Conclusion: elemental lores are a key component of the damage of this spell.

>> 2. CHANNEL does not work.

>> 3. Offensive stance does not seem to help.


When and where were you testing this? I just went and did the same thing with my wizard and the results oppose what you're saying. I was able to use channel. Stance offensive seemed to net better damage with lower end-rolls.

>502 pra [voodoo]>prepare 502 [voodoo]>cast pra You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Chromatic Circle... Your spell is ready. > You gesture at a pra'eda. A pra'eda is suddenly surrounded by a circle of crystalline ice shards. CS: +215 - TD: +109 + CvA: +25 + d100: +54 == +185 Warding failed! The crystalline ice shards quickly orbit the pra'eda, causing 34 points of damage! ... 20 points of damage! Blast of cold air to left knee causes a polar knee cap! The pra'eda is stunned! Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. (Forcing stance down to guarded) >502 pra [voodoo]>prepare 502 [voodoo]>cast pra You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Chromatic Circle... Your spell is ready. > You gesture at a pra'eda. A pra'eda is suddenly surrounded by a circle of flickering flames. CS: +215 - TD: +109 + CvA: +25 + d100: +3 == +134 Warding failed! The flickering flames quickly swirl around the pra'eda, causing 17 points of damage! ... 15 points of damage! Burst of flames to left eye incinerates eyelid. Gruesome. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. >stance off You are now in an offensive stance. >prep 502 You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Chromatic Circle... Your spell is ready. >chan pra You channel at a pra'eda. A pra'eda is suddenly surrounded by a small whirlwind. CS: +215 - TD: +109 + CvA: +25 + d100: +33 == +164 Warding failed! The whirlwind quickly swirls around the pra'eda, causing 35 points of damage! ... 25 points of damage! Ribs shatter and blood fills lungs! The whirlwind leaves the pra'eda off balance and exposed to the elements. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. Roundtime: 3 sec. R>prep 502 You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Chromatic Circle... Your spell is ready. >chan pra You channel at a pra'eda. A pra'eda is suddenly surrounded by a small whirlwind. CS: +215 - TD: +109 + CvA: +25 + d100: +10 == +141 Warding failed! The whirlwind quickly swirls around the pra'eda, causing 28 points of damage! ... 25 points of damage! Knuckles in hand erupt, blood flows freely! The whirlwind leaves the pra'eda off balance and exposed to the elements. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. Roundtime: 3 sec. R>prep 502 You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Chromatic Circle... Your spell is ready. >chan pra You channel at a pra'eda. A pra'eda is suddenly surrounded by a circle of shifting stones. CS: +215 - TD: +109 + CvA: +25 + d100: +44 == +175 Warding failed! The shifting stones quickly orbit the pra'eda, causing 35 points of damage! ... 20 points of damage! Good blow to back! The pra'eda is stunned! Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. Roundtime: 3 sec. R>prep 502 You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Chromatic Circle... Your spell is ready. >chan pra You channel at a pra'eda. A pra'eda is suddenly surrounded by a circle of crystalline ice shards. CS: +215 - TD: +109 + CvA: +25 + d100: +51 == +182 Warding failed! The crystalline ice shards quickly orbit the pra'eda, causing 35 points of damage! ... 30 points of damage! A frigid burst of energy to the stomach leaves the pra'eda reeling. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. Roundtime: 3 sec. R>prep 502 You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Chromatic Circle... Your spell is ready. >chan pra You channel at a pra'eda. A pra'eda is suddenly surrounded by a circle of crackling lightning. CS: +215 - TD: +109 + CvA: +25 + d100: +2 == +133 Warding failed! The crackling lightning quickly arcs around the pra'eda, causing 25 points of damage! The pra'eda falls to the ground motionless. The deep blue glow leaves a pra'eda. The brilliant luminescence fades from around a pra'eda. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. Roundtime: 3 sec.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 932
Author: MOURNE
Date: on 09/17/2015 12:28 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Feedback and Questions


Fortunately, even an attuned mage can get the other element types if they ATTUNE RANDOM. I did seem to only get the "off balance and exposed to the elements" messaging and DS pushdown on casts that matched my attuned element, though.

I'd also love to see lore-based unlocks that allowed specifying the element used/DS pushdown applied, for strategic use against various opponents.

I'm really enjoying this spell.

--- With great effort you combine the value of your two bloodscrip, leaving you with a single parchment bloodscrip valued at 2112. You think to yourself, "Another toy that helped destroy the elder race of man..."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 933
Author: LALAKERCLAN
Date: on 09/17/2015 12:31 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Feedback and Questions


Once you prep the spell, it will apparently let you cast it as channel...Just using the channel command I get a failure message. See below.

I noticed no difference at all going offensive stance. I don't see any real difference in your examples either. Find me some examples with virtually identical endrolls in different stances and let's see. I hope I'm wrong!

>cha 502 You can only channel certain spells for extra power. > A kobold swings a short sword at you! 

 AS: +26 vs DS: +363 with AvD: +33 + d100 roll: +73 = -231
  A clean miss.

>prep 502 You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Chromatic Circle... Your spell is ready. >cha ko You channel at a kobold. A kobold is suddenly surrounded by a circle of crackling lightning. 

 CS: +257 - TD: +3 + CvA: +20 + d100: +14 == +288
 Warding failed!

The crackling lightning quickly arcs around the kobold, causing 35 points of damage! The kobold crumples to a heap on the ground and dies. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 934
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 09/17/2015 12:32 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Feedback and Questions


>Once you prep the spell, it will apparently let you cast it as channel...Just using the channel command I get a failure message. See below.

that's the way all applicable spells work with channel, there is the channelincant flag though.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 935
Author: DRUMPEL
Date: on 09/17/2015 12:33 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


Based upon the element used, the caster's Elemental Lore training will then cause the target to be vulnerable (a Defensive Strength penalty) to follow up bolt attacks of the same element. Specifically, a fire attuned wizard will use their Elemental Lore, Fire training to lower the target's DS against Minor Fire (906) and Major Fire (908). The DS penalty is calculated as (2 * seed 1 summation), such that at 55 lore ranks, it results in -20 DS for the target.
GameMaster Estild

There are 5 elements we can attune with, correct?

Fire Earth Air Water Lightning

How does the DS push down work with Lightning? Does it take the highest lore (Water or Air) into account, or does it take both lores total ranks (Water + Air)?

-Drumpel

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 936
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 09/17/2015 12:36 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


DRUMPEL
How does the DS push down work with Lightning? Does it take the highest lore (Water or Air) into account, or does it take both lores total ranks (Water + Air)?

It's currently ((EL:W + EL:A) / 2).

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 937
Author: ASHRAAM
Date: on 09/17/2015 12:38 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Feedback and Questions


>> I noticed no difference at all going offensive stance. I don't see any real difference in your examples either. Find me some examples with virtually identical endrolls in different stances and let's see. I hope I'm wrong!

It's right here:

(cast, not channeled from guarded) You gesture at a pra'eda. A pra'eda is suddenly surrounded by a circle of crystalline ice shards. CS: +215 - TD: +109 + CvA: +25 + d100: +54 == +185 Warding failed! The crystalline ice shards quickly orbit the pra'eda, causing 34 points of damage! ... 20 points of damage! Blast of cold air to left knee causes a polar knee cap! The pra'eda is stunned! Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

(channeled from offensive stance) R>prep 502 You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Chromatic Circle... Your spell is ready. >chan pra You channel at a pra'eda. A pra'eda is suddenly surrounded by a circle of crystalline ice shards. CS: +215 - TD: +109 + CvA: +25 + d100: +51 == +182 Warding failed! The crystalline ice shards quickly orbit the pra'eda, causing 35 points of damage! ... 30 points of damage! A frigid burst of energy to the stomach leaves the pra'eda reeling. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. Roundtime: 3 sec.


The 185 end-roll from guarded without channel had less overall damage than the 182 end-roll from offensive with channel (by 11 damage). Maybe it's not a massive difference, but it might scale with lores. I'm not trained well with lores taken into consideration.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 938
Author: LALAKERCLAN
Date: on 09/17/2015 12:38 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Feedback and Questions


But does that mean it is actually getting the benefit of CHANNEL?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 939
Author: CAELRIC
Date: on 09/17/2015 12:38 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


So, Estild, could you solve the short debate and let us know whether channeling or open hands have any effect? Also, does lore have an effect on increasing the damage?

-Taakhooshi, and Me

For the Story of Taakhooshi: http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Taakhooshi

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 940
Author: LALAKERCLAN
Date: on 09/17/2015 12:49 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


Offensive You gesture at a skeletal lord. A skeletal lord is suddenly surrounded by a circle of crackling lightning. 

 CS: +257 - TD: +138 + CvA: +1 + d100: +93 == +213
 Warding failed!

The crackling lightning quickly arcs around the lord, causing 35 points of damage! 

  ... 20 points of damage!
  Nasty jolt to back fuses a few vertebrae.  Definitely uncomfortable.

Guarded Your spell is ready. You gesture at a skeletal lord. A skeletal lord is suddenly surrounded by a circle of crackling lightning. 

 CS: +257 - TD: +138 + CvA: +1 + d100: +80 == +200
 Warding failed!

The crackling lightning quickly arcs around the lord, causing 35 points of damage! 

  ... 20 points of damage!
  The skeletal lord is stunned!

Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

I have no air or water lore. Lower endroll in guarded yielded same damage as from offensive.

Either there is no benefit, or the benefit is VERY minor.

I'm seeing far more consistent damage out of my fire crits (38 ranks of fire lore) than anything else.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 941
Author: ASHRAAM
Date: on 09/17/2015 12:51 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 Feedback and Questions


>> But does that mean it is actually getting the benefit of CHANNEL?

Well, until a GM says otherwise, the same damage type, from the same character, on the same target, where the end-roll was lower using channel than not resulting in higher damage. I can only assume that means that channel OR offensive stance had some impact on the outcome.

Of course I only think I grasp the game mechanics. There might be some other reason why a lower end-roll would result in more damage?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 942
Author: LALAKERCLAN
Date: on 09/17/2015 12:51 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


Not to belabor the point but some more examples:

Guarded You gesture at a skeletal lord. A skeletal lord is suddenly surrounded by a circle of shifting stones. 

 CS: +257 - TD: +138 + CvA: +1 + d100: +57 == +177
 Warding failed!

The shifting stones quickly orbit the lord, causing 34 points of damage! 

  ... 20 points of damage!
  Good blow to chest!
  The shifting stones leave the lord off balance and exposed to the elements.

Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

Offensive You gesture at a skeletal lord. A skeletal lord is suddenly surrounded by a circle of shifting stones. 

 CS: +257 - TD: +141 + CvA: +1 + d100: +59 == +176
 Warding failed!

The shifting stones quickly orbit the lord, causing 30 points of damage! 

  ... 15 points of damage!
  Blow to back connects lightly.

You hear a sound like a weeping child as a white glow separates itself from the skeletal lord's body as it rises, disappearing into the heavens. The skeletal lord falls to the ground motionless.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 943
Author: DRUMPEL
Date: on 09/17/2015 12:52 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


>It's currently ((EL:W + EL:A) / 2). >GameMaster Estild

Thanks for the quick reply!

-Drumpel

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 944
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 09/17/2015 12:54 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


Yes, channeling helps. We have to specifically set up spells to allow channeling, so if you can "channel <target" to cast it, it works. However, if you're warding margin is already 100+, you're already reaching the cap of the damage, so you won't notice a difference then. Even against lower warding margins, you can't just compare two casts side by side to draw any conclusions due to crit randomization. However, the initial concussion damage will show a difference.

Elemental Lore only affects the vulnerability (DS penalty) aspect of the spell and does not increase 502's damage.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 945
Author: FIREPHOENIX
Date: on 09/17/2015 12:54 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


In addition, weapon attacks enhanced by the Elemental Blade (411) spell that also match the same element as 502 will also cause the target to suffer the same DS penalty.

How does this work with enchanted flaring weaponry and in conjunction with say the 425 changes for enchanting flaring weaponry say a 7x acid flaring falchion based sword? Can the 411 effect somehow be natural if the lore, attune and 502 matches the enchanted weapon flare type?

Or does it...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 946
Author: ASHRAAM
Date: on 09/17/2015 12:56 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


>> Based upon the element used, the caster's Elemental Lore training will then cause the target to be vulnerable (a Defensive Strength penalty) to follow up bolt attacks of the same element.

How does this interact with Acid and Steam bolts? Is water/fire/earth vulnerability factored into these bolt types, or do you have to stick to pure elemental bolt types to take advantage of the DS weakness?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 947
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/17/2015 12:58 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


>> It's currently ((EL:W + EL:A) / 2).

Hopefully not reading too much into the "it's currently" but I see a pretty easy argument for not having the / 2 in there, especially if "Storm Mage" (and hopefully Acid and Steam!) is elevating to a primary build. The reason being that a mage who devotes 200 ranks to being a good fire mage should get around the same benefits as a mage who devotes 200 ranks into being a good storm mage.

Is this open for discussion? I'm guessing some of the thought is that the other benefits of two 100 lores are higher, namely that the character has "suffered" less overall from seed diminishment. That's the only reason I can think why there's a penalty on Lightning (similarly the penalty on DF for hybrid spells).

I hope this comes off as a desire for discussion more than anything else, I'm just curious what the motivation behind the / 2 for lightning is.


Oh.. also, very happy at the seed 1, that's great. Does the benefit continue open-ended or is there a hard cap? If there is a hard cap, than the previous argument loses some weight since both mages can still hit said cap (depending on what it is, of course).

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 948
Author: ASHRAAM
Date: on 09/17/2015 12:58 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


>>Not to belabor the point but some more examples:

Need to try channeling. Stances are apparently not a factor.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 949
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 09/17/2015 01:04 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


ASHRAAM
Need to try channeling. Stances are apparently not a factor.

Channeling works the same for every spell; stance is a factor. https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/CHANNEL_(verb)

A note about that wiki entry: "EXTRA NOTE: Currently CHANNELING does not work correctly from the StormFront Combat Panel. When clicking the cast button for a channeled spell with the CHANNELINCANT setting at ON, the hard rt is applied but the spell is NOT actually channeled. Therefore no channeling benefits are applied to the cast spell. The issue is known to GM Estild."

I'm pretty sure I fixed that issue a few years ago.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 950
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/17/2015 01:08 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


I'm curious, Estild, does the bit about channelling now helping with endrolls 100+ above success hold true for other spells that use the verb? Knowing when Channel helps and when it doesn't would be nice.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 951
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 09/17/2015 01:11 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


OBSERVER
I'm curious, Estild, does the bit about channelling now helping with endrolls 100+ above success hold true for other spells that use the verb? Knowing when Channel helps and when it doesn't would be nice.

No, that's just determined by a damage cap, which varies from spell to spell. Many spells don't have any at all.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 952
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 09/17/2015 01:12 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


I am also curious about Steam, Acid, Plasma, and any of the other hybrid Elemental crit types.

And see also, Order of the Stick: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0423.html

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 953
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 09/17/2015 01:13 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


Oh, and in other news?

Yeah, my Bard is now also seriously considering a Rainbow Hoolahoop/502 Self-Knowledge situation. <nod>

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 954
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/17/2015 01:14 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


Thanks, Estild.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 955
Author: DOUG
Date: on 09/17/2015 02:16 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


Estild -

Now we're talkin'! Um. . . I haven't tested personally, but have a question based on my reading.

Is it accurate that the non-attuned mage (never attuned to any element) will not get the benefit of the elemental vulnerability the spell offers?

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 956
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 09/17/2015 02:38 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


>> Is it accurate that the non-attuned mage (never attuned to any element) will not get the benefit of the elemental vulnerability the spell offers? ~Doug

That does not appear to be an accurate interpretation:

You gesture at a jungle troll chieftain. A jungle troll chieftain is suddenly surrounded by a circle of flickering flames. 

 CS: +535 - TD: +114 + CvA: +25 + d100: +58 == +504
 Warding failed!

The flickering flames quickly swirl around the chieftain, causing 35 points of damage! 

  ... 30 points of damage!
  Burst of flames to right leg burns skin bright red.

The troll chieftain howls in agony as the flames dance over her body! 

  ... 20 points of damage!
  Minor burns to back.  Looks uncomfortable.

  The flickering flames leave the chieftain off balance and exposed to the elements.

Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

-- Robert (aka Faulkil the unattuned)

Fluke in the programming, or just your average everyday Konacode? ~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 957
Author: LALAKERCLAN
Date: on 09/17/2015 03:09 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


I would really like to see the initial damage portion of this uncapped...or raise the cap much higher.

I'm not saying it should do exactly the same damage as 702, but a little closer, no? Particularly now that 702 has the spell-stripping lore benefit, 702 is both potentially deadly and useful.

502 has some use in the right circumstances, but if elemental lores don't affect the crit severity, the damage of this spell is left far behind 702, and the utility of the spell does not exactly make up for it.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 958
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 09/17/2015 03:13 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


>502 has some use in the right circumstances, but if elemental lores don't affect the crit severity, the damage of this spell is left far behind 702, and the utility of the spell does not exactly make up for it.

I'm not sure if you're taking into account major circle vs. profession circle. I'm not saying the spell shouldn't be adjusted, but that no matter what it will not be as close to 702 in power as you might want.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 959
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 09/17/2015 03:27 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


BUT! what if 902 and 502 were switched? 902 seems to be 411-ish in nature and would fit well in the 500s I think, then you can do more with adjusting the damage/benefits with Chromatic Circle as 902.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 960
Author: LALAKERCLAN
Date: on 09/17/2015 03:31 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


I'll just quote myself:

"I'm not saying it should do exactly the same damage as 702, but a little closer, no?"

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 961
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/17/2015 03:41 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


Yeah, if the argument is only profession versus non, 902 needs a new heart...

Swapping them makes sense except for how cs is calculated. 500 is supposed to be wizards cs circle effectively.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 962
Author: ARIETTA
Date: on 09/17/2015 03:50 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


>>Swapping them makes sense except for how cs is calculated. 500 is supposed to be wizards cs circle effectively.>>>

I'm not sure that's necessarily true, especially after all the changes. It seems like training in the Wizard profession circle may be more attractive than it was. I guess time will tell.

~ GtG

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 963
Author: GS4-AULIS
Date: on 09/17/2015 04:15 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


>>Swapping them makes sense except for how cs is calculated. 500 is supposed to be wizards cs circle effectively.

In my opinion, and only my opinion since I'm not on the DEV team at all...I wouldn't specifically say one circle is intended/supposed to be specific to one attack type. Providing a wide variety of attack styles in each circle a wizard can train in, along with other types of spells, makes it all the better. Then you're not forced into cookie-cutter training regimens. I've personally always felt that the harder it was to personally choose between getting ranks in X circle versus Y circle makes for a better variety of wizards across the board, training-style wise.

Take rogues and their combat and utility abilities for example. They can be extremely good ambushers and no good at all at locksmithing. They can be amazing archers (from the open or hiding) and still be pretty good locksmiths. They can go full out TWC and be very good from the open or hiding. Or they can be still be good at combat but amazing locksmiths. Even within those styles there are still a lot of possibilities and choices to be made.


~Aulis Forums Manager QC'er

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 964
Author: SPYRIDONM1
Date: on 09/17/2015 04:42 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


Thanks Estild and team! This is a great addition to the wizard arsenal.

Question: Does the channeling bonus affect critical rank outcomes or only concussion damage?

Mark

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 965
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/17/2015 04:52 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


>> Providing a wide variety of attack styles in each circle a wizard can train in, along with other types of spells, makes it all the better. Then you're not forced into cookie-cutter training regimens. I've personally always felt that the harder it was to personally choose between getting ranks in X circle versus Y circle makes for a better variety of wizards across the board, training-style wise.

I agree 100% with the intention, but the problem is that in order to make this work, we'd need more CS based options in the 900's. Outside of this (proposed) 902 attack spell, the only other spell that grows with wizard ranks is Call wind (which isn't a damager). I'm speaking in terms of COMBAT btw, for anybody who wants to point out 925 etc.

On the flip side, 500's are full of CS based spells, this new 502, immolate, slow, immolation, ice patch. Taking ranks away from the 500's to increase ONE spell in another circle only works if that will pretty much be the one spell you cast. Now, if 900 had a wide range of CS based spells, including at least a stock spell (502) a nuke (519) and a disabler, then it would be viable.

Overall, I would love if training Wizard base or 500's base was viable to be either a bolter or a CSer, but right now if you train wizard base, you're not really a CS wizard.

Sorcerer's aren't AS affected by this because their primary circle, 700 is full of warding spells, so training it becomes natural. If they wish to bolt, they can rely on spell aiming. By the same token, a Wizard can rely on spell aiming for bolting from the 900's if they train CS in the 500's. Basically, what I'm saying is that a character trained in 500 can be a good either, but without major revision a character trained in 900 can't be a good either (they'd be able to rock 1 spell, IF 902 become chromatic circle).

This is in no way advocating anything it's mostly just observations. There's nothing WRONG with "X circle is for Y playstyle, and A circle is for B playstyle." Wizards are unique because they GET two profession circles. However, any profession that wards will want to always stack up in that circle. There's not a lot of sorcs out there with 167 Minor elem ranks to get their 415 CS up, after all, and Clerics who cast cleric spells focus on the cleric circle.


>> Take rogues and their combat and utility abilities for example. They can be extremely good ambushers and no good at all at locksmithing. They can be amazing archers (from the open or hiding) and still be pretty good locksmiths. They can go full out TWC and be very good from the open or hiding. Or they can be still be good at combat but amazing locksmiths. Even within those styles there are still a lot of possibilities and choices to be made.

Again, I can appreciate the sentiment here, and PRE cap it's absolutely true. Before cap, Rogues, Rangers, bards etc. all have to pick between being good at ambushing, or ranged, or lockpicking etc. However, after cap, a rogue no longer has to pick just one. Eventually, they can get all.

In order for this anology to hold true, Ambush, Perception, Disarm Traps, and Lockpicking would all have to become part of one group of skills called.... Subtlety skills or something. A rogue would only be allowed to 3x in subtlety, and as such if they want to be a great ambusher, they can't be a great trapper.

Now this isn't saying rogues get to be great at everything, or that the TP costs aren't prohibitive, just that the example only holds pre-cap. I've seen plenty of wizards that can pick, and rogues that can cast, but because each spell circle can't be 2xed independently, nobody will ever be optimal at warding in two circles.

Now, it's fully possible that somebody could be "good enough for all practical purposes" in two, however my understanding around TD balance is that it doesn't really play out in practice.


Please take this post as respectful musings, it's not intended to be anything more. I'm not advocating for anything changing in this, just that for spellcasters, training paths don't allow for multiple warding circles the way the game is built.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 966
Author: ERYKK2
Date: on 09/17/2015 04:59 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


Yeah, if the argument is only profession versus non, 902 needs a new heart...
Swapping them makes sense except for how cs is calculated. 500 is supposed to be wizards cs circle effectively.


See my suggestion in another thread!

502 moves to 902, 519 moves to 919.

All of our CS spells are now in our primary circle. And you have to make a choice between over-training 900's for CS and sacrificing Bolt AS (from 513), or training spells evenly.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 967
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/17/2015 05:02 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


>> All of our CS spells are now in our primary circle. And you have to make a choice between over-training 900's for CS and sacrificing Bolt AS (from 513), or training spells evenly.

Drain mana is a staple, and it's in 500 as well. Slow is too. 519 is the nuke, yeah, but there's support spells in that circle as well. It would require a bit more of an overhaul then it might first appear. There's also sleep, hand of tonis (warding version), Ice patch (targeted version).

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 968
Author: ASHRAAM
Date: on 09/17/2015 05:05 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


>>All of our CS spells are now in our primary circle. And you have to make a choice between over-training 900's for CS and sacrificing Bolt AS (from 513), or training spells evenly.

That isn't all of the Wizard CS spells. It's their primary CS attack spells, but not the same as all of them. There are no warding spells currently in the 900s, and I seriously doubt there ever will be.

At the same time, they already said that 902 wasn't done in a previous post about what hasn't been completed with the ELR. I am thinking 902 is about to see a face-lift also, and it would be great to get a preview. It's probably going to be another missing piece of the puzzle for what the Warmage is missing if Haste stops being sustainable.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 969
Author: ARIETTA
Date: on 09/17/2015 05:08 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


>>Drain mana is a staple, and it's in 500 as well. Slow is too. 519 is the nuke, yeah, but there's support spells in that circle as well. It would require a bit more of an overhaul then it might first appear. There's also sleep, hand of tonis (warding version), Ice patch (targeted version).>>>

This is all true.

I have to say, though...CS has never been a big issue for my wizard, much to my sorcerer's dismay. Her CS is quite usable in all her circles. Diversification has some nice benefits.

~ GtG

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 970
Author: ERYKK2
Date: on 09/17/2015 05:09 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


>> All of our CS spells are now in our primary circle. And you have to make a choice between over-training 900's for CS and sacrificing Bolt AS (from 513), or training spells evenly.
Drain mana is a staple, and it's in 500 as well. Slow is too. 519 is the nuke, yeah, but there's support spells in that circle as well. It would require a bit more of an overhaul then it might first appear. There's also sleep, hand of tonis (warding version), Ice patch (targeted version).

I would move 516 to 916, but I don't think we lose anything by leaving the rest where they are. They're mostly useless spells anyway (512, 501, 504, 505)

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 971
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/17/2015 05:09 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


Better to move the CS spells to Major Elemental than the other way around. You only need to grab Weapon Fire. I'm beginning to think Weapon Fire should used a success factor other than CS, though.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 972
Author: ERYKK2
Date: on 09/17/2015 05:10 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


That isn't all of the Wizard CS spells. It's their primary CS attack spells, but not the same as all of them. There are no warding spells currently in the 900s, and I seriously doubt there ever will be.
At the same time, they already said that 902 wasn't done in a previous post about what hasn't been completed with the ELR. I am thinking 902 is about to see a face-lift also, and it would be great to get a preview. It's probably going to be another missing piece of the puzzle for what the Warmage is missing if Haste stops being sustainable.

What is 915 if it's not a warding spell?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 973
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/17/2015 05:11 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


>> I have to say, though...CS has never been a big issue for my wizard, much to my sorcerer's dismay. Her CS is quite usable in all her circles. Diversification has some nice benefits.

Yeah, Pain and Evil Eye only REALLY become insane (borderline OP in some circumstances) when you have ultra-max CS. If you didn't need to get those amazing endrolls to trigger them, sorcs wouldn't need to focus so much either.

My understanding is that a wizard who immo's does need to go crazy CS (again, to maximize the endroll) but one that is just using 500 circle spells to provide support can get away with much less focus. However, if you suddenly needed to generate killing power off of two circles, the formula would shift and it would be a tighter pinning on the two.

Bolters, in either profession, gain a huge flexibility because of their AS coming from spell aiming (same with Bolters in Cleric or Empath... but those are generally "mutant" builds, viable, but more a personal choice).

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 974
Author: ERYKK2
Date: on 09/17/2015 05:13 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


Better to move the CS spells to Major Elemental than the other way around. You only need to grab Weapon Fire. I'm beginning to think Weapon Fire should used a success factor other than CS, though.

My only issue with this is if you look at every other pure class. Their major warding spells are in their primary spell circle.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 975
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/17/2015 05:16 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


>> My only issue with this is if you look at every other pure class. Their major warding spells are in their primary spell circle.

Agreed, the problem is that to put all wizard major CS spells into their primary spell circle would require finding space to put all the elemental bolts.

Moving ALL of them into 500 and pulling the CS spells from 500 would accomplish this, and would allow for the "profession" circle to be the most powerful, however ultimately, what's the point? You'd essentially end up with a no-op in practice (500 would be 900 and 900 would be 500). The numbers would just switch around, and it would be a lot of work.

However, because this COULD be done, it makes the "profession vs. non-profession" argument less weighty. Since 902, even if revised, will likely be on the lower end of potency as far as level 2 spells go (they're never supposed to rock the world) why not just let 502 be the wizard "good" slot? Ultimately, the end effect is the same, and if 500 ever becomes a shared circle... worry about it then, since the whole of 500 will probably have to be revised anyway.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 976
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/17/2015 05:24 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


>My only issue with this is if you look at every other pure class. Their major warding spells are in their primary spell circle.

I hear you, and a ridiculous shifting of spells would definitely give them the room to grow if the GMs are truly following the Minor > Major > (Pure) Profession paradigm when it comes to wizards and their captured Major List.

The 900's has so many spells which need a redesign that I think it's better just to focus on reworking them entirely rather than turfing them onto another list.

Minor Elemental Edge (Still waiting on ELR) Weapon Fire Invisibility Boil Earth Duplicate 935 and 940

That's a lot of wasted potential, all sitting on the Wizard spell circle. Some of them, like Duplicate, taking up an 18th level spell slot. That's why a few have been pushing hard for a commitment from the GMs to a Wizard Spell Review. It's needed badly, and they can't just point to spells like Immolate, Haste, and Rapid Fire anymore and say, "Careful what you asked for!"

But all this is getting off-topic

I'm hoping 411 gains the ability (among others) to be cast at ANY weapon regardless of properties to work with 502. It doesn't need to enhance it in any other way than to be compatible with Chromatic Circle. Wizards shouldn't be punished if they want to use something other than a 4x elemental flaring weapon.

Otherwise, I think it's an awesome spell. Well done, Estild.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 977
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/17/2015 05:28 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


>> I'm hoping 411 gains the ability (among others) to be cast at ANY weapon regardless of properties to work with 502. It doesn't need to enhance it in any other way than to be compatible with Chromatic Circle. Wizards shouldn't be punished if they want to use something other than a 4x elemental flaring weapon.

I wouldn't be surprised if 411 ends up losing the +20 (or only keeping it on plain old weapons) and instead becomes castable on almost anything for an extra elemental flare, similar to 735 self cast.

I wouldn't be surprised if it's something completely different either.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 978
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 09/17/2015 05:34 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


"I wouldn't be surprised if 411 ends up losing the +20 (or only keeping it on plain old weapons) and instead becomes castable on almost anything for an extra elemental flare, similar to 735 self cast." -- Balekia

I would lurve this if you can cast it on your RuneStaff, for a chance at extra flares.

Particularly if it works on Sonic RuneStaves, for a chance at a third (3rd!) flare. <beam!>

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 979
Author: ERYKK2
Date: on 09/17/2015 05:51 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


>> My only issue with this is if you look at every other pure class. Their major warding spells are in their primary spell circle.
Agreed, the problem is that to put all wizard major CS spells into their primary spell circle would require finding space to put all the elemental bolts.

I wouldn't move them all though. I would move the best ones and leave the rest. (Leaving 501,504,512)

If you look at the other pures, they have disablers in their minor/major spheres.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 980
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/17/2015 05:54 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


Get out of here you dirty bard, you have too many flares already! (only joking ;)


>>if the GMs are truly following the Minor > Major > (Pure) Profession paradigm

...yeah I wonder about that. Sure seems to me like it's used as an excuse when it suits, and ignored it the rest of the time.

410,414,425,430,120,115,140,215,etc.. plenty of awesome spells in non-professional circles. And I can find plenty of stinkers in the 900's so I think it really comes down to balancing against the class(es) that have access to it more than anything else. And in that way, I hope that 502 is at least close to 702, I don't really see an obvious reason why it shouldn't be at least close. (and maybe it is, I haven't tested it)

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 981
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/17/2015 06:04 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


I honestly think the wizard circle went untouched for so long because they told any GM that wanted to work on it that they'd have to nerf some spells before adding awesome new ones.

I'm only 3/4ths kidding.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 982
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/17/2015 06:40 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


I wouldn't be at all surprised if it went something like that.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 983
Author: THROGG
Date: on 09/17/2015 08:52 PM PDT
Subject: new commands


I am really annoyed by the command changes to incant, and the new evoke command; it's especially annoying with 505. What was wrong with the old system? Do I really have to add second lines to all my macros? And in areas with more than one critter type, do I need to make a separate macro for each creature type? Why does just using evoke attack the caster? How about an incantevoke flag? Did anyone actually try this system out before implementing it?

>pre 505 You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Hand of Tonis... Your spell is ready. >evoke You gesture. You unleash a bolt of churning air at yourself! 

 AS: +254 vs DS: +265 with AvD: +41 + d100 roll: +38 = +68
  A clean miss.

Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > A sea nymph swings a dagger at you! You evade the attack with ease! >pre 505 You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Hand of Tonis... Your spell is ready. >evoke nym You gesture at a sea nymph. You unleash a bolt of churning air at a sea nymph! 

 AS: +254 vs DS: -3 with AvD: +52 + d100 roll: +84 = +393
  ... and hit for 174 points of damage!
  Blow to the eye dazes the sea nymph.  The sea nymph struggles to recover.

The sea nymph falls to the ground and dies. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > A sea nymph just arrived. >target nym You are now targeting a sea nymph. >incant 505 You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Hand of Tonis... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a sea nymph. 

 CS: +478 - TD: +6 + CvA: +25 + d100: +71 == +568
 Warding failed!

A wispy hand of air reaches toward a sea nymph and grasps it tightly. The hand squeezes hard, snatching the breath from its lungs. A sea nymph is stunned. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > A sea nymph stirs groggily. >pre 505 You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Hand of Tonis... Your spell is ready. >evoke You gesture. You unleash a bolt of churning air at yourself! 

 AS: +254 vs DS: +265 with AvD: +41 + d100 roll: +61 = +91
  A clean miss.

Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > A sea nymph decays into compost. > A sea nymph stirs groggily. >stance off You are now in an offensive stance. >incant 505 You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Hand of Tonis... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a sea nymph. A hand of air reaches towards a sea nymph and wraps its wispy fingers tightly around the sea nymph but it seems to have no effect. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > You feel at full magical power again. >pre 505 A sea nymph stirs groggily. > You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Hand of Tonis... Your spell is ready. >evoke nym You gesture at a sea nymph. You unleash a bolt of churning air at a sea nymph! 

 AS: +424 vs DS: -23 with AvD: +52 + d100 roll: +40 = +539
  ... and hit for 259 points of damage!
  Spun clockwise, the sea nymph falls in a heap.

The sea nymph falls to the ground and dies. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. >set incantevoke on That is not a valid flag.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 984
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/17/2015 10:21 PM PDT
Subject: Re: new commands


> How about an incantevoke flag?

We have something like this coming up, but I think you're going to like it more than you would like incantevoke.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 985
Author: DRUMPEL
Date: on 09/17/2015 10:27 PM PDT
Subject: Re: new commands


>I am really annoyed by the command changes to incant, and the new evoke command; it's especially annoying with 505. What was wrong with the old system? Do I really have to add second lines to all my macros? And in areas with more than one critter type, do I need to make a separate macro for each creature type? Why does just using evoke attack the caster? How about an incantevoke flag? Did anyone actually try this system out before implementing it?

While I'm not against them adding to the on how to cast spells and I like the flavors they put in (mostly)...I do agree that it's a bit much, too fast and kind of poorly laid out to cast the additions.

I don't enjoy having to EVOKE at target after I prepped my spell. It's second nature to INCANT spell# and watch the fireworks fly! I don't see myself making use of these spells (unless I queue up some macros - which isn't hard to do, but I use very few macros and scripts so I'm not used to using them) unless they become more casting friendly; easier to get your desired results from one command entry, instead of two or three.

I'll just stick with what works - INCANT ewave or call wind and then INCANT hurl boulder (or cone of boulders, should it be required - and no, it won't be the friendly version).

-Drumpel

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 986
Author: BRANDTJRT
Date: on 09/17/2015 11:01 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


This seems pretty neat to me so far. There was a ton of messages so I tried to search and find, but I didn't see anything. But maybe that's me. So I am wondering if there are any plans for a standard treasure system wand of this spell to show up (or even make silver wands that instead of a duplicate of iron)? Or an alchemy recipe that will work for a wand of new 502?

I really like having the ability to attack with shifting stones of doom now. :D

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 987
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/17/2015 11:30 PM PDT
Subject: Re: new commands


We have something like this coming up, but I think you're going to like it more than you would like incantevoke.
~ Konacon

So mysterious!

How much lawn watering will it take to get you to spill? :D

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 988
Author: MIGHTONS
Date: on 09/17/2015 11:42 PM PDT
Subject: Re: A Hasty proposal (506)...


This is pretty reasonable. Lower level warmages will be forced to use haste more sparingly, but since at these levels (up to around 40 or 50) the warmage is currently one of the most powerful classes in the game, the nerf will not be felt so harshly. At the higher levels, whether for RT-lock mitigation or weapon usage, those who want perma-haste can achieve it with some sacrifices.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 989
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/17/2015 11:55 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


Oh and as my final piece of evidence negating the Professional > Major > Minor setup as it relates to wizards I give you: 510 vs 910. Virtually identical spells.

So, given that, 502 should be on par with 702 in terms of damage & cap.

((The long version is I don't think PRO>MAJ>MIN was part of original GS design and the 500's and 900's are a mishmash of useful and terrible spells that haven't been looked at in 15+ years. If you want to say 502 can't be as strong as 702, then by the same token 915 should be roughly equivalent to 1115.))

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 990
Author: ARIETTA
Date: on 09/18/2015 12:46 AM PDT
Subject: Re: new commands


Pro tip: Use evoke target on the command line and in your macros for easy targeting.

>prep minoracid Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Acid... Your spell is ready. >evoke target You gesture at a minotaur warrior. A minotaur warrior is awakened by your attack! You need at least 30 ranks of elemental water lore training to evoke this spell as Major Acid. You hurl a hissing stream of acid at a minotaur warrior! 

 AS: +457 vs DS: +210 with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +84 = +360
  ... and hit for 112 points of damage!
  Acid dissolves connecting cartilage, freeing the minotaur warrior's ribs to move independently.
  Some of the acid sticks to a minotaur warrior and continues to bubble away!

Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > Acid continues to eat away at a minotaur warrior! 

  ... 35 points of damage!
  Acid dissolves abdominal muscles.  No sucking in the gut now!

> Acid continues to eat away at a minotaur warrior! 

  ... 35 points of damage!
  Strike dissolves the tendons in the ankle, effectively severing foot!

The acid quickly bubbles away and disappears.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 991
Author: ZENDADA
Date: on 09/18/2015 02:46 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


I like this new spell!

Chad, player of a few

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 992
Author: ZENDADA
Date: on 09/18/2015 02:47 AM PDT
Subject: Re: new commands


Pro tip: Use evoke target on the command line and in your macros for easy targeting.
ARIETTA

Nice. Thanks!

Chad, player of a few

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 993
Author: CIRCADIANZEBRA
Date: on 09/18/2015 06:37 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Wizards/Major%20Elemental%20Circle/view/923

Did these questions get answered? If they did, I have completely missed them in the shuffle. Which is not unlikely.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 994
Author: ASHRAAM
Date: on 09/18/2015 07:17 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


Still very interested to hear how this works (or if it works) with 904, 1707 and 1710.

I'm also wondering if 306 and 111 benefit from the debuffing caused by 502?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 995
Author: WINTERMYST
Date: on 09/18/2015 08:34 AM PDT
Subject: Re: new commands


'

Gah please no more water, my elf hates to get wet

You also see the Shilarra disk etched with the image of a Vathor

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 996
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/18/2015 10:00 AM PDT
Subject: Re: new commands


So mysterious!
How much lawn watering will it take to get you to spill? :D

Can't spill quite yet, sorry.  :(

I want to make sure all the details are set and going to work before I tell everyone about it.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 997
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/18/2015 10:08 AM PDT
Subject: Re: new commands


>> I want to make sure all the details are set and going to work before I tell everyone about it.


Yes, otherwise somebody might type incant evoke cast channel, which is the secret command to 525 the entire game world.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 998
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 09/18/2015 10:37 AM PDT
Subject: Re: new commands


Oh wait... Konacon is coding this??>!?!

-- Robert

Fluke in the programming, or just your average everyday Konacode? ~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 999
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 09/18/2015 10:47 AM PDT
Subject: Re: new commands


> Oh wait... Konacon is coding this??>!?!

Right?! Who is up there making these kinds of decisions? We demand answers!

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1000
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/18/2015 10:48 AM PDT
Subject: Re: new commands


>> Right?! Who is up there making these kinds of decisions? We demand answers!

We also demand helmets! and bunkers!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1001
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 09/18/2015 10:53 AM PDT
Subject: Re: new commands


"Can't spill quite yet, sorry." -- Konacon

This is another Water Lore joke, isn't it?!?

.

"Yes, otherwise somebody might type incant evoke cast channel, which is the secret command to 525 the entire game world." -- Balekia

Actually, David told us in 1998 what that is: "slash nuke" 

 /nuke

Kills every character in the game. Right now.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1002
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 09/18/2015 11:26 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


>BUT! what if 902 and 502 were switched? 902 seems to be 411-ish in nature and would fit well in the 500s I think, then you can do more with adjusting the damage/benefits with Chromatic Circle as 902.

No thanks. We need our MjE CS for other things and don't want to gimp it.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1003
Author: DRUMPEL
Date: on 09/18/2015 11:51 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


No switching spell numbers.

I had a hard enough time when they removed Unpain (510) from the Wizard's MjE spell circle and replaced it with Hurl Boulder....

Casting a boulder at yourself is the complete opposite of Unpain! After a couple of these self harming casts of Hurl Boulder, I finally stopped trying to use Unpain since it was no longer available.

I will be my own worst enemy if you start moving spell numbers around.

-Drumpel

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1004
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 09/18/2015 12:03 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


>Casting a boulder at yourself is the complete opposite of Unpain! After a couple of these self harming casts of Hurl Boulder, I finally stopped trying to use Unpain since it was no longer available.

>I will be my own worst enemy if you start moving spell numbers around.

In general, being averse to change is not a good reason to not make changes, especially when those changes mean to improve the bigger picture.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1005
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 09/18/2015 12:11 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


Right!

"In general, being averse to change is not a good reason to not make changes, especially when those changes mean to improve the bigger picture." -- VanKrasn39

What she said!

.

.

So bring back Breakage, already!!

)



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1006
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 09/18/2015 12:12 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


.

.

.

Breakage does not improve the bigger picture.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1007
Author: LALAKERCLAN
Date: on 09/18/2015 02:04 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


But seriously the damage component of this spell needs to be raised. I really do not see any reason why it should lag so far behind 702, and heck even 302 (is that smite:bane? Not sure) so badly. It should be doing at least 75% of MD's damage, given its additional utility to bolt vulnerability, which I do like.

This is a good spell, and obviously a huge improvement over spell store, but for some reason it feels like Wizards are getting shafted compared to Sorcs and their review. MD does better damage AND strips spells. Cmon Estild, uncap the damage or make the crits better with lores! You can do it!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1008
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 09/18/2015 02:05 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


>My only issue with this is if you look at every other pure class. Their major warding spells are in their primary spell circle.

Wizards are the only class that has 2 exclusive spell lists. Everyone else has their profession circle, and the rest are shared with other professions.

Major Elemental is just as much a primary spell circle for wizards as Wizard spell circle is, and they complement each other quite well, i.e. 513, which requires MjE ranks to max out your bolt AS, etc.

Warding usually isn't a big issue anyway. I can hit most capped critters with 415, and my minor CS is 504 compared to my 557 major CS.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1009
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 09/18/2015 02:10 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


LALAKERCLAN
But seriously the damage component of this spell needs to be raised. I really do not see any reason why it should lag so far behind 702, and heck even 302 (is that smite:bane? Not sure) so badly. It should be doing at least 75% of MD's damage, given its additional utility to bolt vulnerability, which I do like.

Chromatic Circle's (502) damage is very close to Bane/Smite (302).

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1010
Author: CANDIDE
Date: on 09/18/2015 03:35 PM PDT
Subject: Re: new commands


"We have something like this coming up, but I think you're going to like it more than you would like incantevoke.

~ Konacon"

This is wonderful news. I'm sending you a gold star.

GBB

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1011
Author: SPYRIDONM1
Date: on 09/18/2015 03:58 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


Estild, can you please verify if attunement is a requirement to gain the DS penalty or is it only necessary to have lore ranks that match the elemental damage type. E.g. will a non-attuned wizard with 20 ranks in EL:Fire receive the DS pushdown when casting 906 at a target surrounded by a circle of flickering flames?

Mark

Chromatic Circle (502) has been released. When cast, a target is surrounded by a circle of elements and must ward against the spell. Failure to do will result in elemental damage. The caster's attunement determines the type of element used. Based upon the element used, the caster's Elemental Lore training will then cause the target to be vulnerable (a Defensive Strength penalty) to follow up bolt attacks of the same element. Specifically, a fire attuned wizard will use their Elemental Lore, Fire training to lower the target's DS against Minor Fire (906) and Major Fire (908). The DS penalty is calculated as (2 * seed 1 summation), such that at 55 lore ranks, it results in -20 DS for the target. The vulnerability lasts for 15 seconds or 2 attacks. In addition, weapon attacks enhanced by the Elemental Blade (411) spell that also match the same element as 502 will also cause the target to suffer the same DS penalty.
GameMaster Estild



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1012
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 09/18/2015 04:35 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


SPYRIDONM1
Estild, can you please verify if attunement is a requirement to gain the DS penalty or is it only necessary to have lore ranks that match the elemental damage type. E.g. will a non-attuned wizard with 20 ranks in EL:Fire receive the DS pushdown when casting 906 at a target surrounded by a circle of flickering flames?

No, you do not have to be attuned to any specific element to gain the lore bonus. If you're not attuned or have it set to random, it just means you have to have elemental lore training in whatever element is randomly selected.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1013
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/18/2015 04:39 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


Looks like it's capped at 35 damage + crit from the little bit of testing I've done. 302 is capped at 45 according to the wiki.

10 damage is small or 25% difference is big, depending on if you're a glass-empty kinda guy or not I imagine. (I happen to think that's close)

I'm not sure 702 even has a cap, I've seen some pretty high numbers come from that one.

>Massive internal disruption for 171 points of damage!

Is on the wiki, for example. Not entirely sure why there's such a huge disparity there, though I do think the utility aspect of 702 is probably slightly worse (bane gets 5% to insta-kill, we get the DS thing).

I like the 502 lore-effect, even if it is not super useful to me as a warmage. Fire mages seem set to get the best mileage, followed by maybe earth and lightning.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1014
Author: LALAKERCLAN
Date: on 09/18/2015 04:42 PM PDT
Subject: Re: new commands


To my knowledge 302 isn't capped at 35 initial damage. Is that incorrect? How close is "very close?" Cause it doesn't feel close based on what happens when I get warded with 302.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1015
Author: CIRCADIANZEBRA
Date: on 09/18/2015 04:51 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


I like the 502 lore-effect, even if it is not super useful to me as a warmage. Fire mages seem set to get the best mileage, followed by maybe earth and lightning.
KEITHOBAD

I think this could be super useful to a warmage, but it really depends on what kind of gear you're using and if 411 is a huge step down in AS over your current weapon. Thinking about it, I'm pretty sure that ranged warmages come out on top of this one, because good bow plus e-bladed arrows (unless the e-bladed arrows don't get the DS pushdown; has anyone tested this or would they like to?). I think 411 could use a tweak to really take off for this. Allow it to be used to give enchanted weapons flares without the 4x boost. -20 DS for 55 ranks of lore and 1 mana per swing seems like a pretty good deal.

It does seem like fire mages will see a really big boost through the early and mid levels when Minor Fire is a good option (and if you can get the lingering damage, all the better for efficiency). But when 510 and 910 start being more useable, I think it will be a toss up.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1016
Author: SPYRIDONM1
Date: on 09/18/2015 05:44 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


>No, you do not have to be attuned to any specific element to gain the lore bonus. If you're not attuned or have it set to random, it just means you have to have elemental lore training in whatever element is randomly selected. -- GameMaster Estild

Thanks for the clarification.

Mark

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1017
Author: THROGG
Date: on 09/18/2015 08:34 PM PDT
Subject: Re: new commands


I'm still a bit confused. Incant still seems to work with some spells, some need evoke. With other spells, Incant and Evoke alone targets yourself, for no apparent reason I can see. So, does using the macro Prep XXX\revoke target\r now work with all spells and avoid complications?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1018
Author: MIGHTONS
Date: on 09/18/2015 09:16 PM PDT
Subject: Re: new commands


I'm still a bit confused. Incant still seems to work with some spells, some need evoke. With other spells, Incant and Evoke alone targets yourself, for no apparent reason I can see. So, does using the macro Prep XXX\revoke target\r now work with all spells and avoid complications?

The command EVOKE TARGET mimics the auto-target feature of INCANT. So if your target is currently clear, and you're in a room full of mobs, PREP 505 -> EVOKE TARGET will automatically select one of the mobs and cast Tonis-bolt at them. If you have a current target already, the same command will Tonis-bolt the target. So basically:

INCANT 505 casts Hand of Tonis (warding version) using the targeting system. PREP 505 -> CAST TARGET is identical to INCANT 505

PREP 505 -> EVOKE TARGET casts Tonis-bolt using the targeting system.

PREP 505 -> EVOKE casts Tonis-bolt at yourself. PREP 505 -> CAST casts Hand of Tonis at yourself.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1019
Author: BLACKKOBOLD
Date: on 09/19/2015 08:24 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


Where major shock makes sense as far as mana constraints go, I'm not sure I see 502 being particularly useful. Bolt DS on like level targets can vary by hundreds of points at later levels. What is 20 DS at that point? And you have to use a low damage spell to initiate the effect, which adds risk and time. All you really save is a small amount of mana. I Don't see a worthwhile trade-off here for a wizard who has the mana for major shock.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1020
Author: CIRCADIANZEBRA
Date: on 09/19/2015 08:53 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


Where major shock makes sense as far as mana constraints go, I'm not sure I see 502 being particularly useful. Bolt DS on like level targets can vary by hundreds of points at later levels. What is 20 DS at that point? And you have to use a low damage spell to initiate the effect, which adds risk and time. All you really save is a small amount of mana. I Don't see a worthwhile trade-off here for a wizard who has the mana for major shock.
Taverkin

Okay, I'm not usually one for digging into the math too hardcore so correct me if I'm wrong. But 20 added to the endroll against chain, the worst DF for 910, would add 9 damage, bumping it an additional crit rank before randomization.

It's the same damage addition for scale and plate, which is a crit bump for scale, but not plate in all cases (though it could be, I'm not statically inclined enough to calculate how often). Against leather it's 12 extra points, which is 2 crit ranks.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1021
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/19/2015 10:25 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


It might depend on the critter also. How super-dangerous the situation is while sitting in guarded would have something to do with it.

I heard someone talking on LNET last night saying they were pretty happy with the mana efficiency they were getting using it primarily without even going for the lore effect. They also liked being able to stay in guarded stance.

I generally don't think of the bolting stance requirements as much of a risk but they seemed pretty happy to stay in guarded and plink away to save some mana. I think this circles back to my first point where it really matters what you're fighting. Anything likely to disarm/tackle/etc.. you really need to drop ASAP and can't be fiddling around with this type of spell.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1022
Author: CANDIDE
Date: on 09/19/2015 11:10 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


I would like this spell to have consistent and higher disable/hinder/stun percentage effect possibilities to make up for the lack of damage. That with the DS lowering will make it a suitable spell for setup spell progression for warmages and bolters. IMO. Doesn't need the instant kill of 302 or the higher damage possibilities of 702. If 502 is too low for that move slow to here and put this spell there.

GBB

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1023
Author: DRUMPEL
Date: on 09/19/2015 11:35 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


>>Where major shock makes sense as far as mana constraints go, I'm not sure I see 502 being particularly useful. Bolt DS on like level targets can vary by hundreds of points at later levels. What is 20 DS at that point? And you have to use a low damage spell to initiate the effect, which adds risk and time. All you really save is a small amount of mana. I Don't see a worthwhile trade-off here for a wizard who has the mana for major shock.

While it's not terribly impressive for the initial damage in higher hunting ground areas, I do enjoy the DS push down it gives my wizard. 124 ranks of Earth Lore, I drop the target's DS by -30 for a follow up of Hurl Boulder.

It would be fun to allow an area cast version of 502, then you could follow up with a cone spell.

-Drumpel

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1024
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/19/2015 12:22 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


I do have one critique, but it's actually less about 502 itself and more about an imbalance in the spell list as more lore effects are being added.

Is there any way that Water mages can get a high DF single target spell that's on par with Minor Fire/Hurl Boulder/Major Shock. Even if it's just "Major Water" and you evoke 903 into it? The reason Major Cold doesn't work (since I know some will proffer it) is that Major Cold, like Major fire (but unlock Major shock, oddly enough) is a Ball spell. As such, it doesn't have a comparable Single target DF. Minor fire suffers from the same issue, but it's a bit more slight and fire has other damage adding effects from the lore that close the gap a little.

Eventually, it would be great if eventually Major Shock could be renamed something like lightning bolt, and a 17XX spell introduced as Major Shock, retooled into a ball spell (just for consistency) that can be evoked off of 901.


I have Zero concern if this just ends up being a direct clone of a spell moved into the 17XX circle to give access, which should make for a balanced addition and not be too disruptive.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1025
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 09/19/2015 12:37 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


I would swear I just recently made a suggestion to help with splashy-spells, like "calculate possible splashes as usual, but instead give ALL the flaring splashes to the target hit in the first place." A half-dozen free crit results on the same target would be a nice little boost to Major Cold....

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1026
Author: LALAKERCLAN
Date: on 09/19/2015 12:51 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


I agree. 502 falls behind 302 and 702 for damage (particularly in the latter case). I've been asking for damage increase, but failing that, enhanced utility would also be good. If it's not intended to be used as a primary hunting spell, and it's only so-so when it comes to utility, then what does this really do for us?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1027
Author: BLACKKOBOLD
Date: on 09/19/2015 02:03 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


There is some math here, but it's more the way the system works that makes this effect worth less than it may appear at face value.

First, although -20 DS will potentially add 1-3 critical ranks, these ranks apply prior to randomization. That means that in the case of an unarmored target, you only have a chance to receive the maximum benefit in critical rank increase if the roll is between +101-+140. Above +140, the extra 20 points on the roll due to -20 DS is essentially wasted because the result is pushed above a rank 9 critical. The margin is wider for heavier armors: +252-+328. Prior to +252 it's possibly an extra crit rank, beyond +328 it's just an extra 9 raw damage. But, of course, that wider margin also means the relative impact of those potential critical ranks is worth less than it is on lighter armors.

Next, consider where it matters most. Only on hits to a critical kill area and only if the critical rank is actually increased from a non-fatal to a fatal rank. This is a VERY small subset of possible outcomes.

And finally, consider the opportunity cost. A low level caster using low mana spells with a chance to miss might find this spell useful because the damage from 502 would likely rival the usual outcomes from spells like 901 or 903 when you have less than +200 end results. In that case there is no opportunity cost. The alternatives you would have used don't produce a great deal more damage and aren't really any safer or more reliable due to the miss rate. But beyond the very low end this is not how bolt spells work. We typically have very little difficulty actually striking the target for what could be considered decent or even incredible damage.

In this scenario, the opportunity cost is much higher. Using 502 presents increased risk, increased time to kill, and only saves me a few points of mana assuming the extra time/risk doesn't result in more mana expenditure or worse.

The way I see it, the 502 effect would need to overcome that opportunity cost. There is no real scenario I can think of where it would be a better idea to use 502 for the -20 DS effect and then finish with 910. If 910 is unreliable, using 502 betting on -20 DS making the difference on a cast of 910 is like praying to win the lottery. Good luck with that!

So what do I suggest? Honestly, I don't know how you fix this. It all goes back to the basic problem with bolts. They already hit super hard, but are so unreliable it balances out. That's why aiming is a tricky subject. How would bolts have to change to accommodate the ability to aim with them? It's the same issue. How do you balance the opportunity cost of an effect like 502 such that it makes it worthwhile to use it in place of a bolt spell? If I'm casting 4 casts of major shock to kill on average, that -20 DS is very unlikely to be worth the 100+ damage, massive stun, and chance of critical kill that just using major shock provides.

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1028
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/19/2015 02:24 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


Honestly, I can agree with you Tav, the lore effect isn't as good as it first appears, but then again it's not like it's bad. Like most lore effects, it's a little leg up in some situations.

I'm more with increasing the damage a little bit to increase the viability of the spell as a filler. It sounds like the idea is that a CS Wizard would immolate, and then without a kill, you can use 502 to finish off the target over 2-3 cast cycles without needing to go for another full-on immolate. That way, you have a viable option to kill a creature without switching to bolts (which forces the wizard into an atypical training scenario, forced to use both Bolts and CS casting, most of the time it's more of a choice for other classes). As such, if the expected # of casts to kill a creature is more than 3, or more than 40 mana, you're outside the realm of other classes from what I've seen.

So yeah, the lore effect is cool, and for some people/builds it might be good, but it should be, as all lore effects, not considered a primary portion of the spell, which makes the damage a little low. It probably doesn't need to be as open-endedly high as 702 (which is possibly too powerful in it's own right... 1 unbounded damage cycle, a crit damage cycle, AND a seed one summation to disrupt a spell for 2 mana?), but it's not an unreasonable request to ask for the maximum damage cap to be bumped up slightly (even if the formula isn't changed)

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1029
Author: CIRCADIANZEBRA
Date: on 09/19/2015 03:02 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


First, although -20 DS will potentially add 1-3 critical ranks, these ranks apply prior to randomization. That means that in the case of an unarmored target, you only have a chance to receive the maximum benefit in critical rank increase if the roll is between +101-+140. Above +140, the extra 20 points on the roll due to -20 DS is essentially wasted because the result is pushed above a rank 9 critical. The margin is wider for heavier armors: +252-+328. Prior to +252 it's possibly an extra crit rank, beyond +328 it's just an extra 9 raw damage. But, of course, that wider margin also means the relative impact of those potential critical ranks is worth less than it is on lighter armors.
Taverkin

I can certainly see that, and randomization makes anything like this a bit of a downer anyway. But by the time these concerns start cropping up more frequently, and especially as a character approaches cap, the expectation is that there will be more than a -20 to DS, and a higher damage factor as a result of more ranks in the respective lore. Assuming a focused path, it's 120 ranks for -30 DS, and fully doubled at cap is almost -40 DS without enhancives being factored in.

I'm not saying it couldn't use some work as a set up spell, where it is a significant risk (would an extra chance to stun or simply a higher damage cap make up for that?). But there is a lot of reward to be had there. Moving away from bolting and looking at a warmage, how much is 20-40 AS worth from level 50 to cap? This really calls for a tweak to 411 to allow temporary flares on enchanted weapons, or at least for the DS pushdown to function for a flaring weapon weilded by the caster. I would prefer that 411 get the tweak, as it seems like the more logical solution.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1030
Author: BLACKKOBOLD
Date: on 09/19/2015 03:37 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


No. It isn't "bad". It's just one of many additions that could have been more relevant if the design took into account the specific issues facing bolt spells, the wizard class, and individual spell designs. The ELR is full of examples of this.

It's frustrating. You wait years for change, and what you get is "not bad", but I wish more of it were things I want and need as opposed to "oh, look what I have a chance to do with earth lore now - that's. ..nice."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1032
Author: DOUG
Date: on 09/20/2015 08:45 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


>>In this scenario, the opportunity cost is much higher. Using 502 presents increased risk, increased time to kill, and only saves me a few points of mana assuming the extra time/risk doesn't result in more mana expenditure or worse.

So I see a lot of comparisons being lofted back and forth. I think I have a question - do we really think a 2 mana / 2nd order spell should always be efficiently useful throughout a 100 level game?

I actually think I have another question - do we really think this spell isn't useful to a non-solo wizard at just about any point in the game?

I have a couple points, too - betcha can't guess what they are! Well, here's one.

>> It's just one of many additions that could have been more relevant if the design took into account the specific issues facing bolt spells, the wizard class, and individual spell designs. The ELR is full of examples of this.

I can get behind this statement, but I think it's important that we understand the behavior this implies. As each passing spell / lore entanglement is announced, we become more and more critical because we have yet to see anything that is going to tackle this particular set of issues. So it becomes harder and harder to accept each discrete change for the value it might bring, as that particular 'need' is left completely unaddressed.

Though, if I were going to improve the crit randomization / bolt challenge facing wizards, I would not choose to do so in a lore review. There are other / better places to dramatically affect this. So, yes - none of the ELR changes are tackling this head-on. And I'm ok with that. I just want to know what will.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1033
Author: MDEVEAU
Date: on 09/20/2015 09:02 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


I can get behind this statement, but I think it's important that we understand the behavior this implies. As each passing spell / lore entanglement is announced, we become more and more critical because we have yet to see anything that is going to tackle this particular set of issues. So it becomes harder and harder to accept each discrete change for the value it might bring, as that particular 'need' is left completely unaddressed.
Though, if I were going to improve the crit randomization / bolt challenge facing wizards, I would not choose to do so in a lore review. There are other / better places to dramatically affect this. So, yes - none of the ELR changes are tackling this head-on. And I'm ok with that. I just want to know what will.
Doug

Understandable. However, the scenario exists primarily because it seems counter intuitive to spend development and implementation resources on ELR when a number of them are being implemented based on spells which need to be reviewed in the first place thus giving the impression of wasted efforts (especially in light of the up-and-coming modification (haste, rapid fire, immolation) to wizards. The issues with wizards should have been addressed prior to rolling out ELR and a majority of the "critque" would have been completely avoided.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1034
Author: DOUG
Date: on 09/20/2015 09:37 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


>>. . . the scenario exists primarily because it seems counter intuitive to spend development and implementation resources on ELR when a number of them are being implemented based on spells which need to be reviewed in the first place thus giving the impression of wasted efforts (especially in light of the up-and-coming modification (haste, rapid fire, immolation) to wizards. The issues with wizards should have been addressed prior to rolling out ELR and a majority of the "critque" would have been completely avoided.

TL;DR - We have some good changes, and we're forewarned there is a necessary tuning yet ahead of us. We're striving while we have the attention of the Dev team to make some of these changes correlate to challenges that do exist and / or may be exacerbated by the proposals as we understand them. More often than not, though, I feel we're 'talking past one another'.

This is another statement I can easily get behind, MDEVEAU - with one exception: Use of the term 'should' implies either a purely me-centric position (done for me, rather than for other reasons), or it implies an understanding of deeper issues that the game's designers are facing and brings up what might be a missed prioritization. I'm not sure that any of we players can actually strongly assert we're in that second implied position - and yes, I would like to think that's where I live! I just don't know that it's accurate.

There are three positions taken up by the Dev team (and supported by Wyrom, I believe) and two overwhelming positions taken up by players, including me, that keep echoing in my mind every time I try to assess the purpose (weal or woe) of any announced change:

1) Dev - we're going to do ELR! This clearly should be a yay, having been on the table for 7 plus years. 2) Dev - we're going to tune three spells that for the good of the overall game (now to future). This clearly feels bad, since there is a long and storied history of these spells in the profession's overall development paths. 3) Dev - we're not doing a top-down spell review or a complete profession(s) review at this stage. This clearly feels like a gap because there are several well-reasoned positions about how point 2 interplays with general profession game-play. I believe (please correct if inaccurate) that most of our (certainly most of my) feedback falls into this category.

versus

A) Players - This future is too uncertain, given the three spells targeted for tuning and the broad issues as we the players see them. Mass 'confusion' and pointed 'critique' ensues as the GMs undertake the Sisyphean Task of trying their best to deliver desirable changes within the parameters of good balanced game play as they see the matter. B) Players - We (can I say that here? 0;) are not seeing any true benefit in any of the changes delivered that will help the profession and ensure a healthy / vibrant future. For some of 'us', we're less concerned about the direct correlation of implemented change to issue addressed, and so these changes are good. For others of 'us', we're very concerned about that murky future and each opportunity 'squandered' to get something into place, which increases our angst.

Case in point - I like the 502 change, I think it adds to the depth of the game. It may be useful to the war-mage, definitely helps out in the first third of the game for all wizards, and may add benefit in groups. But it does little(?) to address the deeper issues of bolting wizards. I just happen to think it shouldn't.

What I want to know is - what will? Oh, and when would be nice, too. :)

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1035
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 09/20/2015 10:30 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


This spell is awesome.

.

.

.

.

.

.

With Rapid Fire.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1036
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/20/2015 10:42 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


>> So I see a lot of comparisons being lofted back and forth. I think I have a question - do we really think a 2 mana / 2nd order spell should always be efficiently useful throughout a 100 level game?

For most people, the short answer is probably yes actually. In general, having an ability that you only use for a bit but then becomes dead is viewed unfavorably in most game design. Additionally, the GM's themselves have expressed that they'd like for each spell to have a use and find a place for at least some set of players. The good thing so far is that most players haven't responded that the spell is completely off the mark, but rather just needs some tweaking to be better later on. If a younger wizard needs the bolt AS, they're unlikely to be reliably warding, nor will they have large lore pools, so right now we're just having a hard time finding the intended usage of the spell. For a higher level wizard, with heavy lore, since the wizard can likely always hit, it's difficult to see the bonus of the extra AS.

Considering other X01 and X02 spells, plenty of them are useful and efficient at any level. Sure, they may not be the nuke spells, but pretty much all of them could be part of a sensible combat plan. However, so far, without a little extra punch or a little extra lore effect, it's hard to see how 502 fits into a plan. People are just trying to figure it out.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1037
Author: DOUG
Date: on 09/20/2015 11:34 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


>> In general, having an ability that you only use for a bit but then becomes dead is viewed unfavorably in most game design. Additionally, the GM's themselves have expressed that they'd like for each spell to have a use and find a place for at least some set of players.

Yeah, I guess I should clarify I'm not suggesting the damage situation be 'acceptable'. But - 'becomes dead' is not the same as 'useful but not efficient'. 'Efficiently useful' likewise doesn't imply that there may be points where it might be useful - just not as efficient as one might hope.

Let me ask it a different way - how do we make every wizard spell efficiently useful for every wizard in the game both now and in the future?

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1038
Author: DOUG
Date: on 09/20/2015 11:34 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


Rapid fire - the new old bacon!

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1039
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/20/2015 11:54 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


As others have noticed, this spell is fairly useful when it is paired with Rapid Fire. Who knows what form the spell will take, but assuming RF starts to have large mana costs associated with it, 502 may continue to shine as a spell which can achieve damage, a stun, and then lower Bolt DS, which can then be instantly followed by the appropriate bolt. I see this as being a potentially strong tactic even at the later stages of the game. Being able to choose the element with which you attack can also be useful late into the game. Creatures with resistances or outright immunities can be targeted with their elemental weakness, for instance.

Versatility is a strength in of itself, and this spell has it in spades.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1040
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/20/2015 12:04 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


>> Let me ask it a different way - how do we make every wizard spell efficiently useful for every wizard in the game both now and in the future?

Not sure if we need to get so far as to make it so that the spells are useful for every wizard at once, for instance Strength is of very limited use for a lot of Wizards (encumbrance is nice, but doesn't really factor into the combat equation) but it's a great spell for a very distinct build. So in that vein, the spell works just fine if we can find some build or style of wizard for which it is considered a staple spell. The same can be said for Elemental focus. For some wizards, it's a terrible spell (Warmages) but for quite a lot of wizards, it's great.

I think where the current difficulties are coming from is that it sits at the intersection of both Warding and Bolting builds, but for neither does it appear, so far, to be a spell that they'll be tempted to use. The discussion right now is to figure out what it would take to get people using the spell while not making it imbalanced, hence why people are comparing it to other X02 spells as well as discussing how they'd use it in a hunt.

Overall, I'm just responding to your first comment, about if every X02 spell should be efficient for all levels, that yes, they probably should be, and in fact almost all of them are (which is helped by them mostly being defensive spells but still, good for all levels).

Now, to answer THIS question, how to make the spell efficiently useful is to use it as a counter to some of the killing power reduction of Immolate. If 3-4 Casts is a "Reasonable" amount of time to kill an enemy, then Immolate + 2X 502 should have a reasonable chance to HP kill a target. If it doesn't, then combat is balanced to either be too costly (too many immolates) or too long (too many 502's). If the expectation is MORE than 3-4 casts to a kill, then we have a much larger discussion, since 9-12 seconds is not an unattainable time to kill for any class, so that's where the question of "why wizards?" enters.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1041
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 09/20/2015 12:08 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


>> Versatility is a strength in of itself, and this spell has it in spades.

I find the versatility rather lacking for me as I am unable to select a specific element when casting it (without attunement). I did a test cast of it in the temple for the first time, got lightning which then reflected back and injured me, and decided to write the spell off (at least for my current hunting area).

If there was a way to select the specific element being cast outside of attunement, then I might agree with your assessment on the spells versatility. Unless maybe I missed a post where the spell was updated to allow elemental selection (without attunement)?

-- Robert

Fluke in the programming, or just your average everyday Konacode? ~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1042
Author: DOUG
Date: on 09/20/2015 12:19 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


I'm sorry, BALEKIA - I feel I must have missed a post or something.

I thought 502 was being compared to 702 and 302 in terms of damage? Neither of those are defensive (unless one takes that 'best defense is a strong offense' position. ;)

I think the discussion about equitable damage is relevant.

I don't believe 702 and 302 are the 'go-to' spells in general (efficient) at all levels in all points of the game for all sorcerers or clerics respectively.

And using that as an anchor on one end of the spectrum, I don't know why we would be suggesting 502 be 'that spell' for wizards.

So - I support the damage cap discussion because I find it relevant. The fact that a capped wizard cannot efficiently use this spell is not really a viable position to take, in my view. I believe I've explained why I perceive it to be happening, though.

>>I think where the current difficulties are coming from is that it sits at the intersection of both Warding and Bolting builds

Perhaps. But I'm not aware of any 'warding' builds. I'm aware of an immolation build. I see this as two distinct conversations. I think it could be a lot of fun to create that category - is that what we're attempting to do here? Because if so, the problems are a bit greater than just this one spell. . .

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1043
Author: CIRCADIANZEBRA
Date: on 09/20/2015 12:26 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


If there was a way to select the specific element being cast outside of attunement, then I might agree with your assessment on the spells versatility. Unless maybe I missed a post where the spell was updated to allow elemental selection (without attunement)?

It hasn't, and I really feel like it should. There's already a built in lore requirement to get the DS pushdown, so selecting the element of the spell doesn't seem out of line.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1044
Author: MDEVEAU
Date: on 09/20/2015 12:29 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


And as an aside, I forgot to mention that I really like 502 and thought its intent was well designed, but failed to miss part of the mark (its a great low-level warding spell) with lore seed. As people have mentioned, the DS pushdown is primarily relevant either at low to mid levels or in cases with a high investment of lore (which usually precludes the former) which seems paradoxically competing.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1045
Author: BLACKKOBOLD
Date: on 09/20/2015 12:51 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


Anything may be justified as part of a whole, Doug. But when I look at GS design I don't see a coherent plan.

Is 502 intended for low level and war mage use only? From the current design we could certainly come to that conclusion. But does that feel like a deliberate decision or more like a coincidence?

Would it not make sense to use percentages to ensure that abilities like this bolt DS reduction scale to remain useful later on? Or add unlockable additions at the high end to the same effect? Or is the seed table just the perfect design and I'm all wrong about this?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1046
Author: BALEKIA
Date: on 09/20/2015 12:55 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


Doug, I honestly think we're probably saying almost the same thing, just coming at it from different angles.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1047
Author: DOUG
Date: on 09/20/2015 01:04 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


>>But when I look at GS design I don't see a coherent plan.

And this - right here - is what I submit is our biggest challenge to overcome. For all the discourse on desires, expectations, questions, implementations. . . it hasn't ever been a significant priority (in my view!) to keep players and staff aligned with what the future state is going to be.

But - that's likely even a bigger issue than just getting spell circles mapped out.

>>Would it not make sense to use percentages to ensure that abilities like this bolt DS reduction scale to remain useful later on? Or add unlockable additions at the high end to the same effect? Or is the seed table just the perfect design and I'm all wrong about this?

Nope, nope and nope! Well, ok, maybe. Here's the trick (as I understand it), there shouldn't be any Dire Straits 'Money for Nothing' going on here. But it's really hard to do the whole 'require continued training', but 'diminish value of the training to scale with the 5-4-3-2-1 concept', etc.

It might actually be better to just say we've carried the current implementation as far as it can be carried - and work together on a whole new framework with entirely new skills / costs / scaling. That - that is a bit ambitious. There are also a great number of previous and current very tenured players who would welcome (I think) this approach.

Or, we might instead just make a 'next threshold' type spell - put it at 545, and make it exactly this but for levels 75 to 100 in the game. That's not a great design either - but might be closer to the mark.

Dunno - spitballing at this point, I think. I mean, I understand the perspective, Tav. Wouldn't want to unravel the tapestry faster than we can stitch it back up, though.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1048
Author: DOUG
Date: on 09/20/2015 01:05 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


>>Doug, I honestly think we're probably saying almost the same thing

I think you may be right. . . We need a new slogan - 'Nuances kill!'

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1049
Author: LALAKERCLAN
Date: on 09/20/2015 07:03 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


502's only real "problem" is that its base damage is capped too low/the fact that the crit cannot be improved through lore training.

At low levels the lore effect may be of benefit to certain mages. Once my bolt AS starts to reliably beat critter bolt DS, plus you start getting other disablers to shine in the form of 410, 912, or if your CS is good enough, 501, then I start to ask myself, "what is the purpose of this spell?"

Some have responded "well maybe there is no purpose for you anymore, it's a dead spell for wizards past level 30/40, and that's OK." I don't know, maybe it is ok for some, but I don't think any profession should have any "dead" spells. Situational, sure, but not dead. And that's what 502 sort of feels like right now in its current form -- a spell that will be "dead" to end-game mages.

Think about this: the "benefit" you get from casting 502 as a set-up spell eventually slides into, as Taverkin pointed out, an actual "cost." It's an opportunity cost, because you were better off just bolting or doing something else to handle your adversary.

I have three ideas how to improve the spell.

1) Increase the initial damage cap. It should at least match 302. It should come within shouting distance of 702.

2) Make each elemental crit do a little something-something in addition to the DS debuff with further lore training.

By way of example:

Lightning could enhance the effect of the Stun Shock (so that if you follow-up with the intended bolt combinations, Stun Shock actually becomes a really good status effect instead of its plink-plink uselessness). Or, that it extends the duration of stuns that follow (from any source) making it great for groups as well.

Water could improve subsequent crit-ranks the next water spell (you're DROWNING your target with damage!). I've always viewed water as an element that is fickle, sometimes deadly, sometimes healthy, etc. Hence I associate water more with crits than anything.

Fire could improve subsequent RT from the next EVOKE'd of Immolate; or give an improved chance of a subsequent crit cycle with Immolate; making it a great set-up for an Immolate ("CS") Wizard.

Earth could improve DF of further earth spells, or maybe take a page from 702 and strip/disable spells, or give it a chance to root/bind the target, reducing their AS/ability to swing/maneuver. That feels "earthy" to me.

These are just some ideas. The idea would be that after a certain lore threshold (50 ranks?) you could get these additional benefits and really make 502 worth casting before you throw your favorite bolt (or cast your warding Nuke).

3) Make lores improve the crit cycle. It's a less fun/elegant solution but would also make 502 useful as a primary hunting spell for a dedicated wizard. 100 ranks to guarantee improve crit rank doesn't seem unfair. 200 ranks to improve it again. High level wizards could (if trained the CS for it) get a lot of mileage out of this as a hunting spell even if they didn't want to throw 200 ranks into fire lore and be an Immolate wizard. You could potentially have a "water" CS wizard that used 502. It could open up new training builds.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1050
Author: BLACKKOBOLD
Date: on 09/21/2015 10:50 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


Yeah, that opportunity cost thing is a big issue for the GS combat system. It seems like we're always talking about how to make such and such irrelevant spell practically useful and the only thing we can seem to agree on is that some spells obviate the need for other spells. Such was the case with immolate. How are you going to beat a spell that incapacitates, does a ton of damage, and has a high kill rate? What would be the point of casting a lesser kill spell that either doesn't kill as well or leaves you vulnerable? Why cast a disabler when immolate is its own disabler? The only answer is to nerf immolate, right?

Sort of.

I think this is really just a symptom of a larger problem. Consider the way RT is applied. Casting any spell induces 3s RT, which locks us out of casting any other spell for the duration. So no matter the relative power of the spell, the time requirement is the same. That's a pretty big barrier to overcome, if you think about it.

Over in WoW, I've been playing a fury warrior. It's a fairly straightforward style. Your biggest damage dealer is called "execute". Normally, you can only use it if the target is low on health. But with a talent called "sudden death" your normal attacks have a chance on hit to allow a free execute regardless of the target's health. So you have this big damage dealer, but it's contingent upon special conditions: either a chance on hit from another attack or the target being below a certain health percentage. The ability also has a resource cost (warriors in WoW use a resource called "rage", which builds during combat via normal attacks and some specials).

The other abilities I have available work in similar ways. I have a weak attack called "bloodthirst" that restores a small amount of health, but has a high critical rate and criticals with bloodthirst cause other effects like enrage, which grants rage and increases all damage dealt for several seconds. It can also unlock the free use of other, stronger attacks.

You get the idea. It's impossible to spam the same attack over and over, and many of the stronger attacks are limited. Either you can't access them on demand, but rather as a chance on hit from something else, or they're limited by resources or other conditions. There's a lot of play between the various abilities, but you never find yourself in a situation where a less powerful ability is useless because you're always able to use something that works better in every way and shares the same cost.

This sort of system also has the benefit of removing the long pauses between attacks. Since you do have to use a range of abilities and you can't spam the most powerful attack over and over, you can use abilities more quickly.

I know it's not popular to mention WoW over here, and as usual I'm not suggesting GS become a WoW clone. I'm only pointing out a flaw in our combat system where they have developed various solutions. It may not be the perfect solution or the only way to approach the problem, but I figure some of these ideas would work better than what we currently have. Redundant spells, spells that become useless past a certain level, spells which are completely overshadowed by other spells and are therefore worthless, etc.

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1051
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/21/2015 10:58 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


Maybe the best solution to immolate would have been a cooldown rather than nerfing it. Maybe make it so you can't immolate a target that is already been immolated (ie: "He is already on fire!" message). That way it can still be an awesome spell, but you need to supplement it with other actions as well.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1052
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 09/21/2015 11:24 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


"<WoW mechanics>" -- Taverkin

Absolutely!

So all spells should have a cooldown of 1.5x###s, where ### == their spell level. 19th level == 30s for Immolate, for example.

Then, when you cast lower-level spells of that spell-type's affected Lore, there's a chance to unlock those cooling-down spells XXX seconds early!

.

.

Fundamentally, the reason the WoW mechanics differs from ours is that here, the only limit on casting your Big Powerful Spell time after time after time, is how much mana you have. (And there are ways to work with that, too.) Over there, the reason the stuff interlocks like that, with release thresholds and unlocking and so on, is because you can NOT do the Big Most Powerful time after time. That's WHY the system works, and also HOW it works.

I was still in an Advanced D&D campaign (no, not 2nd edition, or whatever; "AD&D"; yeah, the old hardcover books that you liked when you were a kid) when I started GemStone, and it was a pain in the neck having to choose my spells-per-day and what do I load up and... 

 Then login here over the weekend, and cast any-damn-thing I feel like, if I have the mana for it.
 I like the free-flowing way we have here, better.

The only problem is, some spells/weapons become the obvious one to use (lance, claidhmore, Cone/Disrupt in a crowd, Immolate/Implode single-target, and so on) so there need to be downsides.

I like the solution they came up with for Immolate: You can disable (like when hunting in a party, or if you have high CS but not as much AS with bolts) OR you can try for the kill (but a failed kill-attempt will no longer come with "now with free additional disabler" as an added bonus).

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1053
Author: LALAKERCLAN
Date: on 09/21/2015 12:40 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


Aren't they also nerfing Immolate's killing potential at high levels too though?

One of the reasons I am a little bummed about the future state of wizards is that we are being outright nerfed. Not changed, just nerfed. They're taking some of the best things we have, making them objectively worse, and not giving anything else back that really compensates for that loss of power.

I would like to see many more spell interactions/combos that become quite powerful when pulled off. After all, if you have to cast 2-3 spells to get the desired effect, that effect has to be better than what you gave up doing (spamming Immolate, for example). 502 followed by 512 then 903 for a water Mage should be devastating - just as devastating if not more so than 519, because you just hand to stand there casting 3 spells including one in offensive stance. That's dangerous.

Not all classes have those kinds of combos, I recognize. Many classes happily spam their best spells over and over. Pure bards to my knowledge pretty much just rock sonic disruption morning noon and night with no complaints. Then again if we had a spell like that...it would be nerfed.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1054
Author: BLACKKOBOLD
Date: on 09/21/2015 12:50 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


Right, Krakii. Did we just agree on something? What's going on here?

Getting rid of that static penalty (3s RT) and replacing it with short cooldowns - for example, a 3s individual cooldown with a 1s global cooldown - introduces a reason to use other spells. If I can't cast spell X again but I CAN cast spell Y, then right there I have a reason to do so that didn't exist under the RT system.

Further, if casting spell Y is the only way to unlock spell Z, then it has a distinct purpose beyond anything I can achieve with spell X. And spell Z may be more powerful than spell X, which is more powerful than spell Y, but the fact that I have to cast spell Y to have a chance at casting spell Z balances the power of spell Z. And so on.

No need for redundant spells. No need to balance each spell against every single other spell.

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1055
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 09/21/2015 01:09 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


Actually, we didn't agree: I was in SnarkyMode (tm) writing a sarcastic response.  :)

I doubt that there would be many people willing to say, "I Only Get One Cast Of This Spell (for some number of seconds)" for every single spell.

.

I would like to see more spells that work together (like [spirit] Dispel + [elem] Dispel, or fire + water on stone), and the ELR brought out some of this (ED3 with Earth ranks and self-cast of ED1/2/3, soaked targets with Shock spells, and so on), but having 'combo' effects is something that I think GemStone could do very well, and moderately easily.

.

LALakerClan: the most recent info on Immolate that we have is that there are going to be two facets to you spell: 

- you can cast it as a disabler (so you light them on fire and they get the RT of rolling around)

OR 

- you can try for a lethal cast, going for the death-crit (and if you don't get that far, presumably you will get some lesser crit, as now).

What you WILL NOT get with these latter casts, going forward, is the "oh you got lit on fire!" effect as above, in the disabler. The combination of the two--I try to kill you oops didn't make it go ahead and be RT locked rolling on the ground anyhow--is the "too powerful" degree that they're working on changing.

In addition, one of the changes that has been mentioned is that trying for those lethal casts will be somewhat easier (so lower-level Mages just learning the spell with not much Lore have an easier time), but not so common as has been the case as the very top (where capped Mages with a TON of Fire Lore were pretty much smoking [heh] everything instantly).

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1056
Author: LALAKERCLAN
Date: on 09/21/2015 01:43 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


That is what I thought - the "top end" killing potential of Immolate is being nerfed while the mid-tier wizards will see a buff. I guess that's ok as the "top end" probably referred only to like, Methais. Sucks to be you, bud!

Spell "combinations" working together could also benefit group hunting. Not sure how crucial that is in the long run but any change that encourages players to team up together can only be a good thing, right?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1057
Author: BRANDTJRT
Date: on 09/21/2015 02:00 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


>>I would like to see more spells that work together (like [spirit] Dispel + [elem] Dispel, or fire + water on stone), and the ELR brought out some of this (ED3 with Earth ranks and self-cast of ED1/2/3, soaked targets with Shock spells, and so on), but having 'combo' effects is something that I think GemStone could do very well, and moderately easily.

So many interesting combo possibilities for lesser used spells, too. Ice Patch to root a target to the ground, then Boil Earth to burn them and create a giant expanding cloud of steam for scalding power, for instance.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1058
Author: DOUG
Date: on 09/21/2015 04:05 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


It might be too much in terms of compute cycles (and dev cycles?) to track every time every spell is cast ordering some variance into how long / how often / how soon something may be cast.

But maybe there's a way to bridge the two suggestions together. Mighten it not be worthwhile to have lores unlock the 'special follow-up' on spell combinations, and allow them to fire automatically (decrementing mana of course) even if the soft roundtime counter is active?

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1059
Author: BLACKKOBOLD
Date: on 09/21/2015 04:06 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


Well, that's too bad. I don't see how this issue can be resolved under our simplistic system. We've been banGing our heads agAinst the wall on this one for decades.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1060
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 09/22/2015 08:19 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


>That is what I thought - the "top end" killing potential of Immolate is being nerfed while the mid-tier wizards will see a buff. I guess that's ok as the "top end" probably referred only to like, Methais. Sucks to be you, bud!

I was the first Immolate mage, but I was far from the only one. But I'm definitely the saddest over the nerf. :(

What wizards need is synergy. Right now we have a handful of good spells, a bunch of mediocre spells that are situational at best and even then still not very good, and then spells that are flat out useless.

The 512 shatter example posted earlier is the kind of stuff we need. There's no reason why we shouldn't be able to do stuff like 512 a target (which should completely freeze them, not just their legs to where they can still attack, just saying) and then shatter them with whatever like was suggested.

We have tons of spells that have a ton of potential for things like that that aren't being used. I could post example after example but a) I'm at work and b) It'll probably get ignored anyway.

I doubt a lore review would be sufficient to cover stuff like that, but hopefully staff has become aware that what's really needed is a spell review.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1061
Author: CANDIDE
Date: on 09/22/2015 08:40 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


Maybe this spell can add a boost other wizard spells. Specifically add damage rounds to things like 917, 519, 514, 435, 415, 409 etc.

GBB

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1062
Author: CANDIDE
Date: on 09/22/2015 08:13 PM PDT
Subject: Re: new commands


Awesome. Amazing. Astounding.

I will think of you as Aonacon now. All A's.

GBB

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1063
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 09/24/2015 05:14 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


>Will the alchemy recipes for Spell Store transfer to Chromatic Circle?

bump question

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1064
Author: JSTEIG
Date: on 09/24/2015 05:37 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


So what about Coraesine weapons? They have air flares, shouldnt they have the same effect as a 411'd weapon, after casting 502 at a creature? Thanks

Sentral

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1065
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 09/24/2015 06:50 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


It doesn't work on flaring weapons it works on ebladed weapons, so no. Though that's a change I would welcome, personally.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1066
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 09/24/2015 09:24 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


Agreed, flaring weapons (by any means) should take advantage of 502.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1069
Author: ZENDADA
Date: on 09/28/2015 09:59 PM PDT
Subject: 550 - Major Elemental Disjunction


The Wizard casting this spell could have a chance to counter an offensive AOE spell.

Just a thought.

Chad, player of a few

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1070
Author: DOUG
Date: on 09/29/2015 12:00 AM PDT
Subject: Re: 550 - Major Elemental Disjunction


>>The Wizard casting this spell could have a chance to counter an offensive AOE spell.

Yep! By reflecting back IN. THE. FACE. of the caster, too.

I'd like to go hang out in front of a Sentry and dare her to cast Implosion. . . would make my day. (Yes, I know. . . but Implosion is still AOE, just targeted when 'focused'.) <dancing really fast>

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1071
Author: ZENDADA
Date: on 09/29/2015 03:24 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


This was a nice surprise while hunting. Only problem here is that this character has 0 ranks on EL:E. He does have 24 ranks of EL:A. Just a heads up something funky is going on!

A wood sprite swings a quarter staff at you! 

 AS: +246 vs DS: +204 with AvD: +23 + d100 roll: +91 = +156
  A layer of shifting stone absorbs 6 points of damage!
  ... and hits for 12 points of damage!
  Torn muscle in your right leg!

 The stones shifting around you suddenly release a blast of vibrating energy at a wood sprite! 

  ... 5 points of damage!
  Blow grazes left arm lightly.

Chad, player of a few

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1072
Author: THROGG
Date: on 09/29/2015 09:40 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


And that damage! Ooooh, impressive! I'll bet that wood sprite is sorry now that it attacked you.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1073
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 10/01/2015 09:21 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


>And that damage! Ooooh, impressive! I'll bet that wood sprite is sorry now that it attacked you.

Totally worth the nerfs.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1074
Author: ZENDADA
Date: on 10/01/2015 08:39 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 550 - Major Elemental Disjunction


Yep! By reflecting back IN. THE. FACE. of the caster, too.
I'd like to go hang out in front of a Sentry and dare her to cast Implosion. . . would make my day. (Yes, I know. . . but Implosion is still AOE, just targeted when 'focused'.)
Doug

Now that is something I did not think of. Greater Elemental Reflection!

What inspired this idea was Spike Thorn. Such a pain. 550 Greater Elemental Disjunction might counter any LASTING AOE spell such as Spike Thorn or Call Wind. Perhaps that creepy arm spell sorcerers have. To expand a little bit more on this... perhaps it also even dispels any offensive spell cast on the wizard such as Curse, Sounds, Calm, or Bind, off the top of my head. The wizard would have to cast in reaction.

I don't see it as a wearable defense against immediate spells such as Elemental Wave or Boil Earth. But of course that could be a consideration. If it were that powerful if the wizard cast proactively it should have a short duration such as Wizard Shield.

Chad, player of a few

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1075
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 10/08/2015 10:15 AM PDT
Subject: 502 recipe


What is the status of this recipe? Is it no longer implemented? Is it all the same except the chant and it casts Chromatic Circle now?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1076
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 10/22/2015 10:03 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 recipe


It's the exact same recipe, but now will create a clear prismatic wand with 20 charges of 502.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1077
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 10/23/2015 08:01 AM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 recipe


Thanks, Wiki updated.

https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Clear_prismatic_wand

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1078
Author: PFLATS
Date: on 10/28/2015 05:52 AM PDT
Subject: 502 and GOALS


Just a heads-up: 502 still shows up as "Spell Store" in the character mangler.

... Yes, I just rolled a wizard.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1079
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 10/28/2015 08:48 AM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 and GOALS


PFLATS
Just a heads-up: 502 still shows up as "Spell Store" in the character mangler.
... Yes, I just rolled a wizard.

I don't believe you!...no one would create a new wizard! (I'll take a look at that issue).

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1080
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 10/28/2015 09:52 AM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 and GOALS


"I don't believe you!...no one would create a new wizard! (I'll take a look at that issue)." -- GameMaster Estild

.

'

.

FIXED!

Option to create a character of profession 'Wizard', removed.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1081
Author: PFLATS
Date: on 10/28/2015 12:15 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 and GOALS


>I don't believe you!...no one would create a new wizard! (I'll take a look at that issue).

I've heard the class is about to be completely and irreparably destroyed, so I wanted to try it out before that happened.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1082
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 10/28/2015 12:43 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 and GOALS


>> >I don't believe you!...no one would create a new wizard! (I'll take a look at that issue).

>> I've heard the class is about to be completely and irreparably destroyed, so I wanted to try it out before that happened.

Bazinga!

It had to be said...

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul." Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1083
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 10/28/2015 09:33 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 and GOALS


I took that to mean Estild would be working on the issue of people still being willing to roll up a wizard :D

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1084
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 11/05/2015 05:55 PM PST
Subject: 518-Cone of Elements still appears to be broken


Any chance for Cone of elements to be fixed in the near future. I believe this issue was originally reported about a month back.


>stance offensive You are now in an offensive stance.

>incant 518 air You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cone of Elements... Your spell is ready. You gesture. You hurl a powerful lightning bolt at a triton executioner! 

 AS: +510 vs DS: +313 with AvD: +37 + d100 roll: +34 = +268
  ... and hit for 128 points of damage!
  Horrid jolt of electricity smokes a shoulder blade!

You hurl a powerful lightning bolt at a triton radical! 

 AS: +510 vs DS: +229 with AvD: +39 + d100 roll: +77 = +397
  ... and hit for 163 points of damage!
  Heavy jolt to back shoots up spine.  Sympathetic pains almost as bad.

The triton radical gurgles once and goes still, a wrathful look on his face. The dully illuminated mantle protecting a triton radical begins to falter, then completely fades away. A white glow rushes away from a triton radical. The dull golden nimbus fades from around a triton radical. The brilliant aura fades away from a triton radical. The very powerful look leaves a triton radical. The white light leaves a triton radical. The warm glow fades from around a triton radical. A triton radical seems slightly different. The guiding force leaves a triton radical. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

>stance defensive Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded. 


 Elemental Lore - Air...............|     126      33
 Elemental Lore - Earth.............|     105      25
 Elemental Lore - Fire..............|     102      24
 Elemental Lore - Water.............|     120      30


-- Robert aka Faulkil

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul." Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1085
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 11/11/2015 09:09 AM PST
Subject: Re: 518-Cone of Elements still appears to be broken


Okay. I did some additional testing and it's just the INCANT 518 <element> that is now broken again.

PREP 518 / CAST <element> seems to be working fine.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul." Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1086
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 11/11/2015 10:57 AM PST
Subject: Re: 518-Cone of Elements still appears to be broken


That's always been the case. Yet more tedium.

Also, haste no longer reduces the hard RT from channeled incant.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1087
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 11/11/2015 01:12 PM PST
Subject: Re: 518-Cone of Elements still appears to be broken


LADYFLEUR
Also, haste no longer reduces the hard RT from channeled incant.

That's working as intended and affects all channeling.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1088
Author: SOURCE
Date: on 11/23/2015 05:31 PM PST
Subject: hey it works


You swing a knife at a Grimswarm orc wizard! 

 AS: +532 vs DS: +277 with AvD: +15 + d100 roll: +97 = +367
  A layer of shifting stone absorbs 14 points of damage!
  ... and hit for 48 points of damage!
  Awesome shot shatters ribs and punctures lung!

 The stones shifting around a Grimswarm orc wizard suddenly release a blast of vibrating energy at you! 

  ... 35 points of damage!
  Massive blow to your temple drops you in your tracks!



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1089
Author: DRUMPEL
Date: on 11/23/2015 06:04 PM PST
Subject: Re: hey it works


Cool! A new way for you to die taking on Grimswarm!

As for my wizard, it's trigged 1x against a creature and it did a whole 3 points of damage to it's finger! Yeah for my over trained in EL:E wizard!.

-Drumpel

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1090
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 12/02/2015 10:00 AM PST
Subject: Re: hey it works


And what it would probably be the other way around:


A Grimswarm orc wizard swings a knife at you! AS: +532 vs DS: +277 with AvD: +15 + d100 roll: +97 = +367 A layer of shifting stone absorbs 14 points of damage! ... and hit for 48 points of damage! Awesome shot shatters ribs and punctures lung!

The stones shifting around you suddenly release a blast of vibrating energy at a Grimswarm wizard!

... 5 points of damage! Light glance to face. Almost tickles.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1091
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 12/02/2015 02:24 PM PST
Subject: Re: hey it works


I would honestly prefer this didn't exist at all. It's got to be at least 100x better for creatures than players considering:

a) Only a subset of player wizards will benefit due to lore/tp constraints, while every NPC wizard will get .5x in EL:E. b) Player wizards get hit WAY less frequently than NPCs. On an average hunt I'm probably striking an npc ~80 times and getting hit 0-2 times in return. c) Getting a minor crit on an NPC is of very little value whereas if I get crit & subsequently stunned while in offensive (which is when it would happen, regardless of macro speed) I'm basically screwed. d) This gives the mistaken impression to non-wizards that 520 might actually have some value :D

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1092
Author: TRINITIS2
Date: on 12/03/2015 02:44 PM PST
Subject: Strange results from 502


So I've seen this a few times now, and I'm not sure why I'm seeing it :


You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Chromatic Circle... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a cold guardian. A cold guardian is suddenly surrounded by a circle of flickering flames. 

 CS: +188 - TD: +129 + CvA: +25 + d100: +17 == +101
 Warding failed!

The flickering flames quickly swirl around the guardian, causing 0 points of damage! 

  ... 5 points of damage!

Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.


So, my thoughts are apparently cold guardians have some type of damage reduction/resistance to fire..how ever I'm not sure why this would be the case. They are ice, fire should hurt them more I'd think? Unless you're going with the whole fire melts the ice, but the ice reforms quickly I guess.

But even still, seeing 0 damage is somewhat annoying.

-Cinto

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1093
Author: DOUG
Date: on 12/03/2015 02:53 PM PST
Subject: Re: Strange results from 502


They should be, in fact, exceptionally vulnerable to fire.

Does this happen at any indicated result other than 101?

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1094
Author: TRINITIS2
Date: on 12/03/2015 04:30 PM PST
Subject: Re: Strange results from 502


>They should be, in fact, exceptionally vulnerable to fire.

>Does this happen at any indicated result other than 101?

>Doug


It's happened to me a hand full of times since I started hunting the area..always on really low ending rolls. I'd say 110 and less if I had to guess. I'll start keeping better track as I see them.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1095
Author: TRINITIS2
Date: on 12/03/2015 04:31 PM PST
Subject: Re: Strange results from 502


Oh, and I forgot to add it's pretty clear they are not weak to the fire. 502 + being attuned to fire = troll bane. I murder the trolls very quickly. But the guards take a good 5-8 casts to kill (ignoring the casts they ward off).

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1096
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 12/03/2015 05:53 PM PST
Subject: Re: Strange results from 502


I would say a LOT of the creatures that should be weak against stuff aren't. It's a shame because that would be a nice element to bolting wizards that is sorely lacking in many cases.

Nothing on glatoph is particularly weak against fire that I can tell (other than the usual troll weakness to fire).

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1097
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 12/04/2015 12:12 PM PST
Subject: Re: Strange results from 502


This issue wasn't unique to cold guardians. It should no longer be possible to deal 0 points of damage.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1098
Author: CAPTAINREDBEARD
Date: on 12/04/2015 01:06 PM PST
Subject: Re: Strange results from 502


Has anyone test out 502 and the lightning nerve damage crits Estild posted about? Is that real?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1099
Author: GS4-CONTEMPLAR
Date: on 12/15/2015 07:08 PM PST
Subject: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!


Once again the Wizards of the Guild dug deep into the mysteries of the elements and unlocked one troubling feature of Elemental Focus (513). They found a way see past the fog that obscured their ability to use weapons effectively. No longer will Elemental Focus impede an attack with weapons!

Also while researching the above, the wizards discovered a new facet of the spell previously undiscovered! When the spell is active it will aid in the wizard's ability to "narrow their focus" on a specific target. Each subsequent bolt attack made on the same target will see an increase in their ability to hit that target.

The nitty gritty: The AS penalty for physical attacks has been removed. The "focusing" effect will add +1 AS for each seed 4 Elemental Lore, Fire per bolt attack on the same target, capped at +25 total AS boost. The AS will increase whether or not you actually hit the target, and only while casting bolt spells. Casting at another target removes the "focusing" AS boost.

Casting a non-bolt spell, or general area spells like Elemental Wave (410) or Cone of Elements (518) will not affect the focusing boost.

~Contemplar~

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1100
Author: DAID
Date: on 12/16/2015 02:33 AM PST
Subject: Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!


>The AS penalty for physical attacks has been removed.

Thanks! I know I wasn't the only one asking for this, but it seemed like a nice change for warmages.

The lore bonus also looks quite reasonable I think. The fact that no verb or RT is required for the "focusing" effect is appreciated.


Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog

>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1101
Author: GOAT
Date: on 12/16/2015 04:43 AM PST
Subject: Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!


Very cool.

I don't suppose you had a conversation about extending "narrowed focus" to physical attacks? Seems like it would be a good opportunity to help out soon-to-be-haste-nerfed warmages.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1102
Author: DAID
Date: on 12/16/2015 04:50 AM PST
Subject: Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!


>I don't suppose you had a conversation about extending "narrowed focus" to physical attacks? Seems like it would be a good opportunity to help out soon-to-be-haste-nerfed warmages.

I'm not really sure this spell would be the place for it. Since it doesn't normally give a bonus to physical attacks, it seems hard to justify it giving a lore benefit, particularly under fire, for physical attacks. As a warmage, I'm happy it just doesn't give a penalty now, so that I can use the spell more than rarely, as I do supplement my swinging with bolts. (I usually use bolts as an opener before the creature swings, for example.)

I'd think improving the (fairly janky) lore benefit to 509 as a more reasonable example of improving warmages, for instance. The TP cost is only beneficial for training earth lore over CMans for the first 9 ranks (2 bonuses), which I find pretty silly.

Or put another way around, fire lore is unlikely to be a major focus of a warmage in any case.


Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog

>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1103
Author: KARDIOS
Date: on 12/16/2015 06:48 AM PST
Subject: Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!


Is it ranks or bonus?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1105
Author: VAELANCE
Date: on 12/16/2015 06:59 AM PST
Subject: Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!


for all those bolting fire mages! who comes up with this stuff?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1106
Author: DAID
Date: on 12/16/2015 07:46 AM PST
Subject: Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!


>for all those bolting fire mages! >who comes up with this stuff?

Well, there was a general point of how different lores should work. The Elemental Targeting benefit would also be good for bolting and fire, for example.

I mean, in a sense I've already agreed with you by making the case that a melee AS doesn't make a lot of sense for a warmage (earth and air are more likely for that).

An honest question: what lore is good for a bolting (standard) mage? Has this changed at all with the ELR? If it did change, that seems not like a bad thing.


Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog

>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1107
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 12/16/2015 10:58 AM PST
Subject: Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!


>> .. If it did change, that seems not like a bad thing.

It's okay to say "that seems like a good thing." Even on the official forums! :p

To answer your question, I don't think of any lore changes provided much of a lift to bolting in general. There were changes to add some flavor to bolts (906 chance to set the target on fire is fun, ability to cast Acid balls or get acid burn effects is also fun) and some combos that were added (e.g. Minor water, get a soak result, followed by lightning for an improved chance at stun). You could argue the change to 425-Elemental Targeting is a lift but it's pretty situational requiring a seed 10 summation chance for your next spell cast to be crit weighted if it matches your elemental attunement.

Most of the lore changes actually increased defense against bolts / boosted defense for critters (e.g. 414-ED III magical barrier chance to block attack, 430-Elemental Barrier +10 Crit padding, 503-Thurfel's Ward +20 DS for a single attack, 507-Elemental Deflection chance to reflect a bolt but this one was taken away from critters, 520-Stone Skin reactive vibe flare chance).

Net result is bolting is a little less effective in my mind. I don't see the boost to critters as a bad thing since it spices up combat a bit though.

Outside of adding a few ranks to try out acid balls I didn't change my lore training at all based on the new lore benefits. Most likely what they do with haste / rapid fire / immolation / enchant item (and any lore requirements that are associated with it) will be larger drivers for lore training than any of the changes released so far. That or pre-existing benefits such as expanded disk space, DF boost to associated elements, tonis bolt knockdown, etc. will continue to be the main lore training drivers.

-- Robert aka Faulkil

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul." Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1108
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 12/16/2015 11:56 AM PST
Subject: Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!


>Net result is bolting is a little less effective in my mind. I don't see the boost to critters as a bad thing since it spices up combat a bit though.

I do. A nerf is a nerf.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1109
Author: DAID
Date: on 12/16/2015 12:11 PM PST
Subject: Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!


Appreciate the reply, Robert!

I was avoiding this folder for a reason which is no longer relevant, and I've had my wizard for less than a year, so I've a lot to learn.

I definitely get you on changes affecting creatures. My paladin was mostly immune to tomb troll necromancers until they learned to bolt. Haha.


Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog

>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1110
Author: GS4-AULIS
Date: on 12/16/2015 09:56 PM PST
Subject: Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!


From personal experience, with my PC mage, I've noticed I'm a bit safer when bolting 904. The added burn damage that can happens has actually saved my butt quite a few times already by stunning the creature that would likely have wiped the floor with me when I was stuck in offensive from a maneuver or otherwise.


~Aulis Forums Manager QC'er

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1111
Author: JACKBLACK
Date: on 12/17/2015 12:21 AM PST
Subject: Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!


Neat change. Pretty unique.

And seed 4. Hooray! :)

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1112
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 12/17/2015 06:50 AM PST
Subject: Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!


>> From personal experience, with my PC mage, I've noticed I'm a bit safer when bolting 904. The added burn damage that can happens has actually saved my butt quite a few times already by stunning the creature that would likely have wiped the floor with me when I was stuck in offensive from a maneuver or otherwise.

That's a good point! At the lower levels, less of the ELR critter defenses will come into play, critters are mostly stunnable, and you'd be using 904 as a staple spell. I only played around with 904 long enough to see the effects a few times.

I haven't had similar results with 906 in my capped hunting experience (something I do use as one of my staple spells). I get the 'critter on fire' result with reasonable frequency but it generally doesn't have time to play out / make a significant difference. I don't recall it ever resulting in a stun from the burning effect - is that even a possibility with 906? I'll set some stunnable like level critters on fire today and watch them burn to get a sense of how likely this is to happen.

At any rate, from a real impact I'll put two more bolts into it before the fire even has a chance to kick in so the impact is minimal.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul." Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1113
Author: DRUMPEL
Date: on 12/17/2015 09:30 AM PST
Subject: Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!


>That's a good point! At the lower levels, less of the ELR critter defenses will come into play, critters are mostly stunnable, and you'd be using 904 as a staple spell. I only played around with 904 long enough to see the effects a few times.

I don't get out much with my wizard for hunting, but I've made a lot of use of 904.

The 126 of Earth Lore he has, 904 has a 77% chance to stick and burn. It's nice, but at the same time not terribly exciting. A few odd flares might cause a stun, but generally the damage done is 5-15 points of damage with a few upwards of 20-30 (the 25-30 point burns can cause stuns, but it depends on the location of the flare and the target). The small added damage clearly isn't a game breaking design, but it does help against the few critters you can't get a good crit on.

Is the added acid burn for the 904 bolt super helpful....? Eh, not really, but it is a nice addition to help my wizard inflict extra pain on his enemies and I'm not complaining about it.

It would be cool if you could get the acid to stack and create multiple locations of burning acid on a single target - I'd be okay with that. I'm just saying....you should probably do this because that would be awesome.

-Drumpel

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1114
Author: CAPTAINREDBEARD
Date: on 12/17/2015 08:37 PM PST
Subject: Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!


Why wasn't the acid/burn/scalding thing done for all bolt spells and lore possibilities?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1115
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 12/18/2015 09:30 AM PST
Subject: Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!


Okay, I was able to spend some time hunting this morning and figure our why I never see 906 cause stun. Most of the time when I hit something that is stunnable with 906 the result is that... it's stunned. So even when the critter catches on fire, it is either dead or still stunned when the burning messaging kicks in. So no real opportunity to see/cause a stun result.

-- Robert aka Faulkil

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul." Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1116
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 12/18/2015 09:33 AM PST
Subject: Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!


>> The "focusing" effect will add +1 AS for each seed 4 Elemental Lore, Fire per bolt attack on the same target, capped at +25 total AS boost. The AS will increase whether or not you actually hit the target, and only while casting bolt spells. Casting at another target removes the "focusing" AS boost.

I just wanted to say that I spent some time hunting this morning and I was having a lot of fun with this effect.

Good job and thanks!

-- Robert aka Faulkil

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul." Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1117
Author: MOURNE
Date: on 12/18/2015 03:45 PM PST
Subject: Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!


>I just wanted to say that I spent some time hunting this morning and I was having a lot of fun with this effect. -Robert/Faulkil

What he said. I really appreciate the satisfaction factor of seeing my AS creep up, and it's an especially nice offset when something's taking a few extra casts to put down and my mana supply is dwindling. Sometimes it's the little things.

--- With great effort you combine the value of your two bloodscrip, leaving you with a single parchment bloodscrip valued at 2112. You think to yourself, "Another toy that helped destroy the elder race of man..."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1118
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 01/15/2016 11:55 AM PST
Subject: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


Hi Everybody! No shenanigans today. Just details.

Rapid Fire has been revised to remove the constant 0-second castRT. Instead, while Rapid Fire is active, it will reduce the castRT of all subsequent spells to 1 second. Once the effect ends, there is a short recovery period of 3 minutes before the spell can be used again without an extra penalty. If the spell is recast during the recovery period, all subsequent spells cast cost +5 mana. Training in Elemental Mana Control reduces the 3 minute cooldown by (skill / 2) seconds. So at 102 skill, the cooldown duration is 129 seconds, at 202 skill, the duration is 79 seconds, and at 302 skill, the cooldown is 29 seconds.

Training in Elemental Lore, Air has a seed 1 summation (based upon ranks) % chance to reduce the castRT to 0 seconds for any spell cast while Rapid Fire is active. Training in Elemental Lore, Water, has a seed 1 summation (based upon ranks) % chance to not cause the spell to go on cooldown when the effect ends. Thus the chance for each of these to trigger is 10% at 55 lore ranks, 20% at 210 lore ranks, etc.

Finally, the spell will no longer automatically prepare the same spell again.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1119
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 01/15/2016 11:55 AM PST
Subject: Immolation (519)


The overall lethality of the spell for immolation-specced wizards is being reduced, but the usefulness and power of the spell for non-specialized wizards is being increased. The chance to incinerate (instant kill) a target is now calculated as a seed 1 summation of ((lore ranks - 10) / 2), but with a reduced chance for any warding result that is less than 150. The penalty is calculated at 2% per 1 WM. So if the wizard had a base 10% chance to incinerate the target, but the warding result was 125, the chance would be reduced to 5%. With 192 lore ranks, the base chance is 13%.

When not EVOKEd, the base damage of the spell has been increased. Training in Elemental Lore, Fire will now provide a % chance for one additional crit cycle, determined by (lore ranks / 1.5), so at 100 ranks, there is a 66% chance, and at 150 ranks, there is a 100% chance. The spell may also now be CHANNELed for increased damage, when one or more of the wizard's hands are empty and they are in an offensive stance. Lastly, when the spell is not EVOKEd, it will no longer cause RoundTime to the target, with the exception of players who manually choose to roll around on the ground in an attempt to extinguish the immolate effect. However, the spell can be EVOKEd to still cause RoundTime (in exchange for the decreased damage potential). This allows a wizard to optionally use the spell to disable or as an effective warding attack spell.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1120
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 01/15/2016 12:09 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


All of the wizard nerfs that hit today are complete garbage.

That's all I have to say right now.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1121
Author: GS4-AULIS
Date: on 01/15/2016 12:15 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


Just as a reminder:

2. "Count to 10" and post kindly. Messages should always maintain a respectful, civil tone towards one another. Name-calling and abuse is not allowed.

Let's try and be constructive with any criticism or comments towards any of the new changes.


~Aulis Forums Manager QC'er

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1122
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 01/15/2016 12:34 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>Let's try and be constructive with any criticism or comments towards any of the new changes.

There's nothing to be constructive about because it's exactly the same garbage (fact) as the previous proposals, with all of the same bolt issues still in place.

Congratulations on making the game less fun.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1124
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 01/15/2016 01:10 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>Let's try and be constructive with any criticism or comments towards any of the new changes.

Simu should try to be constructive with major changes they make to a class, as opposed to being destructive like they just did with wizards.

These are the same terrible changes that were proposed during HSN and caused a huge uproar that supposedly were put on hold until they could come up with something that doesn't trash the class (no idea if that part was true or not, just what I had been hearing after HSN). Obviously that didn't happen, yet none of the inherent problems wizards faced overall have been addressed either, leaving us worse off in every possible way compared to where we were before.

What does this do to improve the game again?

Seriously, what exactly did this improve with the game? It's not a rhetorical question.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1125
Author: MICHN18
Date: on 01/15/2016 01:43 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


Training in Elemental Lore, Water, has a seed 1 summation (based upon ranks) % chance to cause pitchforks and RAGE.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1126
Author: ROLFARD
Date: on 01/15/2016 01:49 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1127
Author: SHAYD11
Date: on 01/15/2016 02:02 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


> "I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror...

You forgot the best part of that quote. I will finish it for you since I am a gentleman. " and were suddenly silenced"

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1128
Author: ROLFARD
Date: on 01/15/2016 02:12 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


If anything the number of posts in this folder tonight will likely surpass posts in all other folders combined.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1129
Author: DRAFIX
Date: on 01/15/2016 03:34 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


So I've done some testing... here are my initial findings with 202 air lore:

The changes effectively remove the mana efficiency of using 901. On average it takes me 20 casts of 901 to take down a rift crawler. 6 casts of 903. 7 casts of 904. 11 casts of 906. 910 takes about 4 casts. As stated above, the costs to take down a rift crawler becomes approximately 20/18/28/66/40 mana and 20/6/7/11/4 RT respectively.

Then if you try to use the rapidfire spell while on cooldown, that's effectively 120/48/63/121/60 mana respectively, making it effectively unusable during cooldown.

As you can see wizard bolt spells aren't particularly powerful, the DFs are weak, costs are high, and aren't particularly effective even with the air lore DF boost for 901/910.


I, however, have been able to kill crawlers in 1-4 shots with a bow with maximum skill/enhancives (lots of death crits resulting in some quick one hit deaths). So that works out to be 1-4 rt, basically negligible mana cost to cast celerity, and no cooldown. It seems being a war mage is much better than bolting now. The caveat is that you have to be able to hit things with your 471 maximized bolt AS. Some crawlers just have excessively high DS regardless of the fact they're in offensive stance and wear no spells. Fetish masters have ~480+ ranged DS in offensive/prone so trying to hit them would be pointless. Furthermore anything using a shield is basically a lost cause as well since critters tend to be fully trained to use shields. That ends up being something like 303 shield ranks + tower shield versus the 101 ranged ranks. Fallen crusaders come to mind as they tend to block 3-4 of my shots consecutively like Captain America or something. I cannot hit any vvrael warlocks that use tower shields as they basically hit 600 ranged DS with a tower shield.

So where does that put wizards all-in-all? For war mages, haste adds no change to how they hunted before as haste effectively adds no changes to offensive actions. For defensive purposes, 535 is much weaker as even 5 rt turns into 2 rt when before 8 rt turned into 1rt. Bolting without rapid fire is much weaker. Bolting in general isn't very effective. I have death critted a few cerebralites using 512 on the first cast so that looks promising. 519 without the lore training is costly and rarely death crits.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1130
Author: FIREPHOENIX
Date: on 01/15/2016 03:58 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


Methais, the 14 minutes since these were posted and implemented gives a good indication you didn't try them.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1131
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 01/15/2016 05:07 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


Hey Konakon! Glad to see you are still alive and kicking!

>> Finally, the spell will no longer automatically prepare the same spell again

This is the main reason I never bothered to use this spell very much in the past and I'm excited to see this particular change made!

I expect I am in the minority here, but I will probably use this spell more as a result of this update.

Also, for those wondering, the new spell has a duration of 60 seconds and does not stack (you get a message that it doesn't work if you try to recast it a 2nd time while it is still active).

Thanks!

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul." Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1132
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 01/15/2016 06:42 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


I was able to try this out this evening and this update took a dead spell slot (for me) and made it into a nice power up! Since it doesn't have the quirky re-prep characteristic now it plays nicely with my normal hunting style but with the turbo button pressed! Came in handy a couple times and was a rush to use it (without having to write a bunch of scripts / macros to handle it like you had to with the old spell). Definitely something I'll make part of my normal hunting routing going forward.

Also the recovery time wasn't all that noticeable - it was back up and ready for use before I was even looking to use it again.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul." Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1133
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 01/15/2016 07:23 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Single target disablers shouldn't cost 19 mana. Without a CS booster, post-cap creatures such as greater water elementals also cannot be reliably disabled this way.

The incant setting is not saving: >inc set cast 519 INCANT will now use CAST for the Immolation spell.

>inc set INCANT CHANNEL Spells: 

 -  502: Chromatic Circle

INCANT EVOKE Spells: 

 -  903: Minor Water
 -  909: Tremors

INCANT OPEN Spells: 

 -  518: Cone of Elements



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1134
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 01/15/2016 07:28 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


I found it the opposite. The most tedious 2nd floor Nelemar hunt ever. It's like someone went out of the way to encourage script hunting with adding excessively complicated commands and usage scenarios.

More tedium, less fun for total less power = no fun.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1135
Author: CANDIDE
Date: on 01/15/2016 07:46 PM PST
Subject: 515 combos


Has anyone tried set up spells in their attacks? 504 (giving instant rt) 502 for vulnerability and then appropriate bolt to your lores?


Frankly if it works it smacks of UAC to me but at least its 3 seconds not 12.

GBB

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1136
Author: CAELRIC
Date: on 01/15/2016 07:55 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


Congratulations on making the game less fun.

This x1000 and this is the proverbial straw that resulted in me sending in cancellation requests for both my Plat accounts.


-Taakhooshi, and Me

For the Story of Taakhooshi: http://www.gsguide.net/index.php?title=Taakhooshi

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1137
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 01/15/2016 08:00 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>Methais, the 14 minutes since these were posted and implemented gives a good indication you didn't try them.

It doesn't take rocket appliances to read the changes and see that it's an incredible loss in power from what we were before today.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1138
Author: RAGGLER
Date: on 01/15/2016 09:31 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


Currently the cooldown timer for 515 is being calculated based on your elemental mana control ranks at the time the spell expires. I'm wondering if this was intentional or not? Would it be possible to have the cooldown calculated by how many ranks of EMC you have at the time you cast the spell instead?

Isle Snack Muncher

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1139
Author: PC1234
Date: on 01/16/2016 03:44 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


An increase in duration would go a long way on this one. How about a 3 minute duration since there is a 3 minute recovery period?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1140
Author: DAID
Date: on 01/16/2016 04:02 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>The changes effectively remove the mana efficiency of using 901. On average it takes me 20 casts of 901 to take down a rift crawler. 6 casts of 903. [...]

It looks to me like 903 was the mana efficient option. Granted, 1 more cast makes it 21 mana, so the error bar on the average for 903 is going to be larger than for 901. I still find it interesting that, with this example, people weren't even using the most efficient tactic for Rapid Fire (which has now been ruined) even while claiming it was the best tactic loudly. This speaks volumes to me...

>Also, for those wondering, the new spell has a duration of 60 seconds and does not stack (you get a message that it doesn't work if you try to recast it a 2nd time while it is still active).

One query I heard on LNet was if Rapid Fire is now self-cast only. The announcement does not specify an answer to this. I've almost ever used Rapid Fire on my sorcerer from other people, but evidently some people have commonly done that. Anyway, it would be good to know if it is self-cast only, or how it works on others if not.

As far as my general perspective on this spell change:

I only have a warmage that is in the late 20s. Certainly that character never used Rapid Fire despite knowing it for about 15 levels (or around 9 months). I might use it now, though. All-in-all it seems staff implemented the changes reasonably considering their stated direction.


Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog

>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1141
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 01/16/2016 06:51 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>One query I heard on LNet was if Rapid Fire is now self-cast only. The announcement does not specify an answer to this.

>Rapid Fire is not restricted to self-cast: it can be cast on other characters and uses the target's skill to determine the cooldown. -Wiki

Estild did the basic information wiki edits on 515 (and 519)

https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Rapid_Fire_(515)

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1143
Author: PCOFFEY77
Date: on 01/16/2016 08:48 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


I am happy to see that things are still being worked on and updates are happening.

I'm not entirely thrilled about how this spell turned out though. In places I've been hunting recently, the life, and typically death, of my Wizard depended on how fast he could bolt things to death. You've now just added a probable minimum of 10 seconds to each attempted kill in a place where time is of essence. The ability to not be able to stack this and ON TOP OF IT ALL to give a penalty and a 3 minute cooldown on it hurts me most. Even with using 901 I am mana starved many times. You capped us on mana leech so now I can't even try to get back more mana because of the penalty you've placed on it.

My suggestion would to make it more like mana leech in the fact that you can use it over and over to a point WITHOUT A MANA PENALTY - and then when you rest you have to endure the cooldown. Because this game is a "hurry-up-and-rest" game. It feels like you've just made the already painfully slow process even more painful and slower. But, maybe that is to help "even out" Wizards hunting to match those that swing at 5 rt. Yet, they can wear plate and not paper like wizards do.

To a Wizard with little protection, speed is of the UTMOST essence!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1145
Author: GAROFALOA
Date: on 01/16/2016 02:13 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


CORRECTION:

lol, brought to my attention that it's 319...not 335.

But i'm still standing behind my previous remarks.

Hap

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1146
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 01/16/2016 05:02 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


Isle Snack Muncher
Currently the cooldown timer for 515 is being calculated based on your elemental mana control ranks at the time the spell expires. I'm wondering if this was intentional or not? Would it be possible to have the cooldown calculated by how many ranks of EMC you have at the time you cast the spell instead?

What would be the benefit for such a change?

PCOFFEY77
I'm not entirely thrilled about how this spell turned out though. In places I've been hunting recently, the life, and typically death, of my Wizard depended on how fast he could bolt things to death. You've now just added a probable minimum of 10 seconds to each attempted kill in a place where time is of essence. The ability to not be able to stack this and ON TOP OF IT ALL to give a penalty and a 3 minute cooldown on it hurts me most. Even with using 901 I am mana starved many times. You capped us on mana leech so now I can't even try to get back more mana because of the penalty you've placed on it.

It's rather universal that speed trumps a lot of things in GemStone combat (for all professions). 0 second castRT should have never been possible (and never will be again on any persistent basis) and created significant balance implications. 1 second castRT is still extremely powerful; you're literally casting 3x as fast as any other caster. I don't know what level your wizard is, but at the least I'm guessing level 50+ (otherwise any claim to a hunting area being dangerous is significantly diminished), and even at 1x Elemental Mana Control (50 ranks), that's -75 seconds to the cooldown, reducing it to less than 2 minutes. If you want to further mitigate the cooldown, you can train more EMC. The mana penalty is intentionally designed to push you to try a different tactic other than Rapid Fire during the cooldown. It's a soft cooldown so you can make the choice, but if it's affecting your ability to hunt - don't use it on cooldown. It is absolutely possible to hunt without the spell, but even so you can still can maintain 25-66% up time based upon training.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1147
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 01/16/2016 09:54 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>0 second castRT should have never been possible (and never will be again on any persistent basis)

I can almost feel the delight you take in reminding us of that.

>It is absolutely possible to hunt without the spell

Go try it in a place like the confluence against more than a 1 vs 1 fight where everything is unaffected by aoe crowd control spells, immune to single target disablers other than immolate on the stuff that isn't fire immune, which is about half the critters there, and are constantly dispelling and throwing maneuvers at you, and not being able to kill quickly is going to result in death. And since they don't crit, you have to do it by pure attrition which requires damage output that we're simply not capable of in the timeframe it's needed.

Know what else it's possible to do? Hunt a square 0 to cap with a non-ambushing sword & board build.

On another note, what's the point of the 0 RT procs? Without either a script, mindlessly mashing the enter key, or Spider Man reflexes, it's impossible to take advantage of it, which makes it useless unless encouraging scripting is the desired effect.

What's the chance that proc could be changed to something more useful, something like a double cast, duration extension, etc.?

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1148
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 01/16/2016 11:47 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


> I can almost feel the delight you take in reminding us of that.

I can't speak for Estild, but I would be astonished if there was any delight there at all. It's just a factual statement.

> What's the chance that proc could be changed to something more useful, something like a double cast, duration extension, etc.?

I feel you on the proc, and I plan on bringing this point up. I highly doubt it's going to end up as some kind of double cast, but I think there are other options to explore. As to the chances that it will actually change, I don't know.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1149
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 01/17/2016 06:57 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>I feel you on the proc, and I plan on bringing this point up. I highly doubt it's going to end up as some kind of double cast, but I think there are other options to explore. As to the chances that it will actually change, I don't know. -Konacon

Double cast was just an example off the top of my head. But either way as it stands, the 0 RT proc just feels like a slap in the face being included with the RF nerf, because it's literally impossible to get any use out of without scripting or mashing.

Even replacing it with 0 mana cost for that cast would be way better than the current proc, because at least we can make use of it. The only way I can see a 0 RT proc being useful is to make it last 1 second instead of 1 cast, which I doubt any GMs would go for.

I would have much rather seen Rapid Fire become Burst Fire over what it is now, but I'm not even gonna waste time on a lost cause like that.

But I do appreciate you planning on bringing it up regardless.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1150
Author: RROY
Date: on 01/17/2016 07:02 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


Having only had 3-4 hunts since the change went in, and not really optimized my macros and etc... My experience with the new 515 has been pretty positive. at 88 trainings and hunting OTF Aqueducts and the west woods areas, so down hunting a bit. I am still easily able to fill my experiance bucket. I hunt a bit more cautiously. I start out with Rapid Fire then use it again here and there before the cooldown is over. So far so good, not running short of mana and able to switch spells without releasing the old.

The 0 sec RT proc, pretty useless as you get into a 1 sec rhythm and loose quite a bit of the proc due to reflex time. Change the proc to something else.

Suggestions for that would be to just aucto recast the spell that procs even if the frequency needs reduced. Or how about the proc removing the mana cost of the spell?

Just an elf about town...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1151
Author: RROY
Date: on 01/17/2016 07:03 AM PST
Subject: 535


LOving the new 535 Haste, almost all the things I use haste for are now at reduced cast time without my having to cast 506. LOving that!

Just an elf about town...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1152
Author: PCOFFEY77
Date: on 01/17/2016 07:46 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>I feel you on the proc, and I plan on bringing this point up. I highly doubt it's going to end up as some kind of double cast, but I think there are other options to explore. As to the chances that it will actually change, I don't know.

Be nice to follow along with the MjS circle on that as with 240. Though I'd hate to even touch 540, but maybe it could be added to it - temporal change in time and space allows for a double/triple cast of a spell...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1153
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 01/17/2016 08:43 PM PST
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


This spell might actually be of some use if it allowed you to specify an element based on lore training, similiar to how 518 works, rather than just attunement or random. Without attunement, being random makes it not functional at all in many areas of the game since the chance of a lightning strike can kill you. 302 and 702 aren't subject to such conditions.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1154
Author: TRINITIS2
Date: on 01/17/2016 08:47 PM PST
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


I for one am loving 502. Cinto has been hunting with it for about 5 levels now and he's just having zero issues at all. Granted he's only level 30, so I don't see many scary beasts at this point.

I did wanna find out if being able to re-attune is still being looked at though. As being able to control which element is used via 502 is extremely helpful.

-Cinto

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1155
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 01/17/2016 09:51 PM PST
Subject: Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!


>The "focusing" effect will add +1 AS for each seed 4 Elemental Lore, Fire per bolt attack on the same target, capped at +25 total AS boost.

Why is this the single offensive boost in the game to calculate the bonus focusing effect based on lore ranks in the field, rather than upon initial spell up? Please fix this.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1156
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 01/18/2016 12:06 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>Currently the cooldown timer for 515 is being calculated based on your elemental mana control ranks at the time the spell expires. I'm wondering if this was intentional or not? Would it be possible to have the cooldown calculated by how many ranks of EMC you have at the time you cast the spell instead?

>What would be the benefit for such a change?

Because this is how every other utility and buffing spell in the game works (skill check upon casting, not expiration), except for the exceptions wizards seem to be getting. The same problem exists with 513. Please make this consistent, and I don't mean by nerfing more things for everyone else.

Additionally, 506 and 515 have the only cooldown effects in the game that activate upon expiration, not original activation. CMANs and every other combat effect in the game aren't treated this way. Why is it that wizards have to be nerfed for "game balance" and "consistency", yet the way they're addressed isn't consistent with anything else?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1157
Author: DRAFIX
Date: on 01/18/2016 01:54 AM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


519 really doesn't disable anything.

The flames surrounding a frozen corpse flare up violently... 

  ... 15 points of damage!
  Minor burns to right hand.  Ouch.

The flames around a frozen corpse continue to burn! A frozen corpse rolls around on the ground, trying to smother the flames that surround it. The flames surrounding a frozen corpse continue to burn. A frozen corpse's eyes glow with a dull blue light! A frozen corpse swings a large ice pick at you! You gracefully avoid the attack!

The flames around a frozen corpse continue to burn! A frozen corpse grimaces as she fumbles helplessly with her ice pick. The flames surrounding a frozen corpse flare up violently... 

  ... 10 points of damage!
  Minor burns to chest.  That hurts a bit.

The flames around a frozen corpse continue to burn! A frozen corpse drags herself northeast, wailing in exquisite ecstasy.


It's on fire... and it can attack.. stand up, get a weapon, and walk away. Disable what? Plenty of critters exhibit this behavior. They completely ignore the fact they're on fire. The disabling aspect of this spell is very unreliable.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1158
Author: DRAFIX
Date: on 01/18/2016 04:09 AM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


The toggle settings for INCANT SET and the help menu from INCANT are actually a bit unintuitive.

It's not that it isn't saving. If you INCANT SET CAST, that just means set to casting [closed casting by default]. Closed casting is default therefore it doesn't show up on INCANT SET.

Only reason to set to CAST is to either A) remove it from the INCANT SET list by making it effectively closed casting OR B) change from EVOKE/CHANNEL to OPEN cast mode. (like you have for 518)

By the way... to remove from the INCANT OPEN list, you have to INCANT SET OPEN 518 again to toggle it back to closed cast. Funny how there's no CLOSED setting. Similarly you could just SET INCANT CHANNEL 502 to toggle it back to CAST mode, which effectively makes the CAST option redundant, useless, and confusing.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1159
Author: GS4-CONTEMPLAR
Date: on 01/18/2016 07:09 AM PST
Subject: Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!


>>The "focusing" effect will add +1 AS for each seed 4 Elemental Lore, Fire per bolt attack on the same target, capped at +25 total AS boost.

>Why is this the single offensive boost in the game to calculate the bonus focusing effect based on lore ranks in the field, rather than upon initial spell up? Please fix this.

I am sorry but there is nothing to fix there.

The calculation for this is determined while you are in the field. There is no stored bonus (aside from the main AS portion) when you cast the spell for the "focusing" effect. Thus, you cannot ramp your "focusing" boost this way. The boost only comes into play when you are targeting the same creature in the field. So if you are spelling yourself up safely in a node using special enhancives for this, it is not going to help. You need to have that enhancive boost while actually hunting for it to come into play.

~Contemplar~

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1160
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 01/18/2016 07:20 AM PST
Subject: Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!


>The calculation for this is determined while you are in the field. There is no stored bonus (aside from the main AS portion) when you cast the spell for the "focusing" effect. Thus, you cannot ramp your "focusing" boost this way. The boost only comes into play when you are targeting the same creature in the field. So if you are spelling yourself up safely in a node using special enhancives for this, it is not going to help. You need to have that enhancive boost while actually hunting for it to come into play.

And yet this isn't how any other offensive buff or utility spell in the game works, from 307, 215, etc. Why are wizard spells the sole exceptions to consistent game design?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1161
Author: GS4-CONTEMPLAR
Date: on 01/18/2016 08:25 AM PST
Subject: Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!


>>The calculation for this is determined while you are in the field. There is no stored bonus (aside from the main AS portion) when you cast the spell for the "focusing" effect. Thus, you cannot ramp your "focusing" boost this way. The boost only comes into play when you are targeting the same creature in the field. So if you are spelling yourself up safely in a node using special enhancives for this, it is not going to help. You need to have that enhancive boost while actually hunting for it to come into play.

>And yet this isn't how any other offensive buff or utility spell in the game works, from 307, 215, etc. Why are wizard spells the sole exceptions to consistent game design?

This is nothing remotely like any other offensive buff spell including 513 itself. All the other AS boosters you are mentioning are persistent, meaning that they grant the AS boost when cast and stay there until the spell effect is removed. The "focusing" boost is not a persistent effect on the player. It only gets added when you aim for the same target until then you do not have a "focusing boost". You still get the full AS boost from 513 base effect when you cast it.

I know that is not what you want to hear, but it is working by design.

~Contemplar~

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1162
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 01/18/2016 08:28 AM PST
Subject: Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!


>This is nothing remotely like any other offensive buff spell including 513 itself. All the other AS boosters you are mentioning are persistent, meaning that they grant the AS boost when cast and stay there until the spell effect is removed. The "focusing" boost is not a persistent effect on the player. It only gets added when you aim for the same target until then you do not have a "focusing boost". You still get the full AS boost from 513 base effect when you cast it.

And yet the 307 flare is based on original casting skill. Why can't the "focusing" effect of 513 use the same check? It's essentially a scaling flare that fires if you attack the same creature multiple times.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1163
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 01/18/2016 09:43 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


The cooldown needs to be able to be eliminated via training well enough post-cap. What's absurd, is the fact that the biggest issue with this spell, just like old Haste, was that it can STILL be cast on other players. Know who can afford the extra 5 mana per cast in the cooldown period? Those sorcerers spamming 702 in warcamps. Know who can't afford them? Wizards, especially unattuned ones who can't make use of 502 or 415 because of the presence of the lightning flare chance in water hunting grounds.

You should have eliminated the other cast ability and lessened the nerfing for the class that primarily bolts, since we have no effective warding spells or CS-based mass disablers or boosters accessible that spiritualists enjoy. Even other spells such as 215, 307, 219 all require the cleric or empath to be present instead of just casting from a place of safety and letting the sorcerer pop into a warcamp.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1164
Author: DAID
Date: on 01/18/2016 11:21 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


Basic investigation in-game or fact checking would help make a better case where there are perceived issues with releases.

LADYFLEUR:
>Additionally, 506 and 515 have the only cooldown effects in the game that activate upon expiration, not original activation

False! Check this out:

Celerity release post by FINROS:
>If not natively self-cast, there is a four minute period starting at the time of first application during which Celerity may not be re-applied to the same target.

Next up:

LADYFLEUR:
>CMANs and every other combat effect in the game aren't treated this way.

False! I just tested the CMAN Surge of Strength, for instance. It's recovery begins when Surge drops, not when it's called.

Anyway, the above is all mostly irrelevant to the core discussion:

Isle Snack Muncher
>>>Currently the cooldown timer for 515 is being calculated based on your elemental mana control ranks at the time the spell expires. I'm wondering if this was intentional or not? Would it be possible to have the cooldown calculated by how many ranks of EMC you have at the time you cast the spell instead?
ESTILD:
>>What would be the benefit for such a change?
LADYFLEUR:
>Because this is how every other utility and buffing spell in the game works (skill check upon casting, not expiration), except for the exceptions wizards seem to be getting. The same problem exists with 513. Please make this consistent, and I don't mean by nerfing more things for everyone else.

My guess here is that the target value for the cooldown was intentional on staff's side. This is, more often than not, the reply to the query, "Why is a formula calculated by A rather than B?" What would be the point of starting a cooldown earlier or later if the cooldown after the buff is removed is kept constant?

If the purpose of the question was to start the cooldown earlier but keep the cooldown the same, it is no different than asking for a shorter cooldown, which while certainly something players may appreciate, is probably something the staff already considered in a lot of detail and won't be changing without a reason. As to that point itself, while there are other cooldowns which cannot be 100% removed post-cap, I would point out there's always maxing Harness Power training, which isn't vastly different than mitigating the cooldown directly...


Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog

>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1165
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 01/18/2016 03:34 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>As to that point itself, while there are other cooldowns which cannot be 100% removed post-cap, I would point out there's always maxing Harness Power training, which isn't vastly different than mitigating the cooldown directly...

All of my magical skills are fully maxed, thanks, so basically I lost power for nothing in return. Which in itself is bad enough, but the main issue is wizards are the only class that can't instantly kill something any more with sufficient skills and gear post-cap.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1166
Author: DAID
Date: on 01/18/2016 04:45 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>All of my magical skills are fully maxed, thanks, so basically I lost power for nothing in return. Which in itself is bad enough, but the main issue is wizards are the only class that can't instantly kill something any more with sufficient skills and gear post-cap.

Just a moment ago, this thread was about Rapid Fire cooldown mechanics. A few false statements later, it is now about instant kills. Change topics often?


Check out who's dying any time! https://twitter.com/GSIVDeathLog

>Daid: Pretty sure you have a whole big bucket as your penny jar. You never have only two cents. :p

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1167
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 01/18/2016 05:27 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


Going back to my original point, rapid fire should be self-cast only before adding in all of these other excessive cooldowns and mana penalty nerfs. At the minimum, a wizard should be present for the spell to take effect on others if an other cast version is available, similar to how 211, 215, and 219 work with lores. It's absurd that a major circle spell is so readily available when that was one of the big problems with it.

Also, this spell should be refreshable similar to how 506 now is. A CT nerf, plus a cooldown, plus non-refreshable, PLUS mana penalty is serious overkill when the biggest offenders of the spell are non-wizards abusing it for low mana costs. Non-wizards should only be able to cast defensive or utility spells at best while under this effect if we're balancing combat mechanics.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1168
Author: ROLFARD
Date: on 01/18/2016 05:54 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>>the biggest offenders of the spell are non-wizards abusing it for low mana costs.>>

I was introduced to this hunting style for my mage by a mage first with 901 on the 3rd floor of nelemar (sorry for the screen scroll friends!) and then 502 in the confluence. I would consider my mage a big offender, more so than any of my alts partaking the benefit while group hunting.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1169
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 01/19/2016 09:32 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


Since the Elemental Lore, Air benefit of a chance to flare a 0 second castRT appears to be unpopular, what other ideas would you suggest? Ideally, something useful and unique, as we're not looking to reimplement acuity or ensorcell (+AS/CS) flares here.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1170
Author: ELIZAISGOD
Date: on 01/19/2016 09:39 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>Since the Elemental Lore, Air benefit of a chance to flare a 0 second castRT appears to be unpopular, what other ideas would you suggest? Ideally, something useful and unique, as we're not looking to reimplement acuity or ensorcell (+AS/CS) flares here.

I'm not sure 515 needs a cooldown at all, to be honest--and this is coming from someone who considered 515 way too overpowered. The new 1 second cast mechanic coupled with an unstackable duration addresses all the things I thought was wrong with it originally.

Droit

Speaking to you, Ceyrin asks, "Do you spontaneously come back to life when you die?" Speaking to you, Ceyrin says, "Because I do." You say, "Yes. I have a condition called Annoraxia.""

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1171
Author: ELIZAISGOD
Date: on 01/19/2016 09:40 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


Whoops, I totally misread what you were asking about. Sorry. My statement still stands however.

Droit

Speaking to you, Ceyrin asks, "Do you spontaneously come back to life when you die?" Speaking to you, Ceyrin says, "Because I do." You say, "Yes. I have a condition called Annoraxia.""

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1172
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 01/19/2016 09:52 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>> Since the Elemental Lore, Air benefit of a chance to flare a 0 second castRT appears to be unpopular, what other ideas would you suggest? Ideally, something useful and unique, as we're not looking to reimplement acuity or ensorcell (+AS/CS) flares here.

Why not apply the 1 second to extend the spell duration or reduce the cooldown period? So if the ability fires off 5 times during the initial 60 seconds then the spell would remain up for an additional 5 seconds or the cooldown period would be reduced by 5 seconds?

Either of those scenarios would be more usable to someone not running scripts / mashing their keyboard while providing a benefit that is somewhat similar to the current benefit.

Alternatively, introduce an overload feature where each 'flare' increases the crit weighting by 1 (additive) for the remainder of spell duration (e.g. if it flared 5 times over the course of the spell then the last spell cast would have +5 crit weighting on it).

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul." Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1173
Author: TANDL
Date: on 01/19/2016 09:59 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


Auto applying a 502 cast either before or after. 0 mana cost on next spell cast. Automatically cast a 'minor' version of a bolt spell of the same element as what was cast. Double cast. Double sampled d100 roll (reverse 1006). Extra elemental flares of the associated element cast. Apply the channeled spell effect for bolts (and immolate) without having to actually channel. Free casts of the same spell at secondary hostile targets in the room. Increased effectiveness of lore based effects (either static lore bonus, or by proc)

Taluric.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1174
Author: RSKEENS
Date: on 01/19/2016 10:02 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


Could just have the proc add duration since a 0 second cast would have been a "free" extra cast anyway. 1 second? 2 seconds?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1175
Author: DNA428
Date: on 01/19/2016 10:20 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


how about a chance to flare 506 on yourself? or flare bubble flares? mana return like dc?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1176
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 01/19/2016 12:01 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>Since the Elemental Lore, Air benefit of a chance to flare a 0 second castRT appears to be unpopular, what other ideas would you suggest? Ideally, something useful and unique, as we're not looking to reimplement acuity or ensorcell (+AS/CS) flares here.

Returns Rapid Fire to its original form for the rest of the spell's duration. If it happens twice in a row, this effect becomes permanent.

But since that won't go anywhere...

- Double damage on next cast - Double/triple cast - Reduces cooldown and/or extends duration by 5 seconds - Grants an instant 1000 experience and 1,000,000 silvers - Makes Ophion say yes - Makes David Whatley go back to collecting checks instead of being involved with GS again

My vote is for making Ophion say yes.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1177
Author: DNA428
Date: on 01/19/2016 12:03 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


temp increase in td?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1178
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 01/19/2016 12:30 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


1. 0 mana cost for the spell would apply to any spell being cast (Offensive, Defensive, Utility), which would be nice. If that is considered imbalanced, then either free to a certain level, then reduced cost beyond that point.

2. Extended duration of Rapid Fire or reduced cooldown both would be universally useful.

3. Increased AS/CS would be useful for offensive spells, but not Defensive/Utility. I imagine people would still enjoy that as an ability.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1179
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 01/19/2016 01:09 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


I don't think extending either the duration or reducing the cooldown is sufficient to address the amount of power lost by having the cooldown plus mana penalty in the first place. If we're really going for a tangible lore benefit, a free mana double cast or high chance of an aimed bolt, similar to what post-cap ambushers and archers can achieve, would be useful and unique.

Air lore is not the right lore to be using for this, given every other offensive benefit takes fire. Either that, or we need to be able to 3x lores, because the way training is split 4 ways with such high seeds for all means that no matter what, every post-cap wizard is going to be pretty mediocre.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1180
Author: ROLFARD
Date: on 01/19/2016 01:32 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


How about a flare that prevents ungrouped casters from casting due to a mama surge in the room.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1181
Author: HJELTE
Date: on 01/19/2016 01:39 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


I really like Tandl's recommendations.

HOWEVER, I would prefer not having something be "On the next cast blahblahblah". Lets face it, we're going to be spam casting while rapid fire is up... I'd rather not have to adjust what I'm casting based on a proc in 1s time. I'd rather have it be retroactively applied. I can't really adjust what I'm doing in 1s! Thats why randomly getting 0 RT is tough... can't really maximize the use of that, because the command for the next cast would already need to be transmitted before the feedback from the previous cast is received. Just like I prefer procs like Acuity rather than an Ensorcell.

On Defensive spells: mana return On Attack spells: Auto-apply 502 / 513 AS boosts On Disabling Spells: Auto-Slow/Dispel? On Utility spells: Randomly apply effects on other PCs in the room?

~Whirlin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1182
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 01/19/2016 01:48 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>> Double sampled d100 roll (reverse 1006).

I like this idea for channeled bolts. Still not sure I'll ever use channeled bolts but I think I would be more likely to consider using them over the current implementation.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul." Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1183
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 01/19/2016 01:52 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>How about a flare that prevents ungrouped casters from casting due to a mama surge in the room.

mama surge implementation definitely needs more work.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1184
Author: THORNBROOK
Date: on 01/19/2016 01:53 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


What about 4 possible results based on which lores the player has trained, trained most extensively, or alternatively any lore over 50 ranks has the chance to have its flare happen. Fire lore could provide either a double strike of the spell cast (pseudo 0 second cast without the human reaction time) or while copying ideas..it could be like 415 where it hits another target if there is one, or double strikes the target if not. Water lore could reduce mana costs of the next spell(s) by a % or flat amount. Air lore as others have suggested could either extend the spells duration or lower the cooldown by 1 second for each time it procs. Earth lore could provide you DS in proportion to the spell you were casting when it triggered. If we're rapid fire bolting than we're likely intending to stay in offensive stance so more DS couldn't hurt right. Maybe spell casted x3=DS gained. Or have it scale based on the number of earth ranks. Rapid fire minor shock would be a minimal 3 DS+any scaling, but something like 906 would be 18+. It could also be that this ability doesn't begin until the rapidfire cooldown begins. One of the arguments has been how deadly that downtime is for the wizard, well this could be a way to frontload DS for that period. 


Thanks for reconsidering tweaks like this btw.



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1185
Author: DOUG
Date: on 01/19/2016 02:10 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


I'll add to my list, based on the intriguing reverse 1006 commentary.

- Spell Truehand (result is D50 automagically added to 50 base, resulting 51 to 100 result) for the spell cast under the proc'd chance.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1186
Author: DOUG
Date: on 01/19/2016 02:13 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


Dern! And another thought for consideration, just because I'm a GoS fan:

- Critical aim effect (+10 to bolt crit weighted applied when proc'd chance is realized).

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1187
Author: CANDIDE
Date: on 01/19/2016 02:31 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


Heheh first idea struck down!

Second idea is still alive! "HAH! not going to get me copper! nyah see! I gotta talk like this see!"

1. previous spell costs no mana/less mana/mana returned 1-10 depending on lore random element.

2. Duration increase 1 second to 5 seconds depending on lore random element

3. Crit weight/damage weighting to next offensive cast.

GBB

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1188
Author: HJELTE
Date: on 01/19/2016 04:32 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>Critical aim effect (+10 to bolt crit weighted applied when proc'd chance is realized).

425 does this... so kind of redundant of other spell effects available to a wizard... and seems very fiery rather than airy.

~Whirlin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1189
Author: ROLFARD
Date: on 01/19/2016 04:44 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


'mana-surge' flare on rapidfire would disable caster types with a 'slow' of a number of seconds equal to whats remaining on rapidfire before they can cast again. this will help with sentries or other things that can kill you with an implode if they can get a cast off while staying true to what rapidfire would offer...outcasting your target.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1190
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 01/19/2016 04:52 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


Anything that relies on a "flare" is really not a reliable hunting tool. None of the other 3 pures has to rely on flares at all for either mass crowd control or instant kills. With sufficient post-cap training and gear, they are all able to achieve near 100% on both fronts.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1191
Author: MEKK1
Date: on 01/19/2016 05:09 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


Since the problem is only that a human can't use the proc effectively, why not just make it autocast? A free cast even.

Drauz

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1192
Author: RROY
Date: on 01/19/2016 05:20 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


No new ideas from me, I see all the ones I came up with are already posted. Bravo for the ideas from everyone.

Just an elf about town...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1193
Author: XYXTUS
Date: on 01/19/2016 05:44 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>Anything that relies on a "flare" is really not a reliable hunting tool. None of the other 3 pures has to rely on flares at all for either mass crowd control or instant kills.(LADYFLEURS)

Admittedly, my sorcerer does not rely on flares, but neither does he have "reliable" mass crowd control in any of the capped hunting areas. 410 (which wizards have) works some. So do 720 and 709 (709 VERY nicely but still not "reliable" especially with a large crowd), but given three or more creatures, sometimes even two depending on the exact creatures, his reaction about half the time is to move and wait for better odds. Nor do I have any instant kills. 711 is efficient when not outnumbered, 720 of limited use especially with leaving no corpse, and 719 gives me a crit kill on fetish masters about 25-50% of the time (AFTER 703, Hex curse, and possibly 709), and on soul siphons slightly more often.

Sorcerer is my only capped pure, so I can't speak to the efficacy of crowd control and instant kills of the other pures in the same situation, but for sorcerers it's far from the walk in the park you seem to think it is.

--Hal

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1194
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 01/19/2016 05:58 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>Sorcerer is my only capped pure, so I can't speak to the efficacy of crowd control and instant kills of the other pures in the same situation, but for sorcerers it's far from the walk in the park you seem to think it is.

I don't know what your training or gear is like, but the typical min-maxed post-cap sorcerer can achieve both. See Nindon. Your mass crowd control is called 135.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1195
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 01/19/2016 06:10 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


Some thoughts from the PC. Some may have already made their way here, so excuse the double posts. Edited for content because I don't want to lose my posting privileges.


double cast makes the most sense.

extending the duration of rapid fire maybe

Definitely agree with double cast... at such low % proc rates, and proc rate growth, I don't think it'd be that overpowered. Especially when you consider that the double-attack cast wouldn't be able to proc on the final hit of the target.

I still like double cast (it's RAPID FIRE. For firing rapidly) but if they want something more unique some kind of special flare based on the element being used? Default to some generic elemental torrent of energy effect if it's a spell that wouldn't make sense on for some reason.

all do a small-mid extra crit hit potentially and cause: earth - pelt with rocks, extra crush damage with special effect of causing target to kneel (extra damage if already prone?) air - air blast knocks target off-balance, forces stance to offensive fire - superheat held items (like elementals) potentially cause target to drop weapon/shield ice / water - freeze target in place, like casting 512 (including enabling the 903 lore conversion to 1709) lightning - rapid shock targets nervous system, prevents preping/casting spells for duration steam - superneated steam blinds target causing AS/DS/EBP penalty acid - similar to 705 disentegrate lore proc (reduce weapon/armor effectiveness) if a spell that has random elemental effects or it's a non-elemental spell: assailed with raw elemental energy, maybe a random effect from above or incur RT or something


I wouldn't mind a mana leech proc that's separate from the regular mana leech cooldown.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1196
Author: ROLFARD
Date: on 01/19/2016 06:33 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


double cast with the same 'proc' chance as a chronomage dagger (for up to 3 attacks for the price of one!)

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1197
Author: PC1234
Date: on 01/19/2016 07:20 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


I really like the mana surge suggestion. (How about a flare that prevents ungrouped casters from casting due to a mana surge in the room.) That would be my #1 pick.


Since 515 can be used offensively and defensively, this would also work:

- Double/triple cast (It automatically recasts the previous spell cast at no mana cost.)

Air lore is not the right lore to be using for this, given every other offensive benefit takes fire. Either that, or we need to be able to 3x lores, because the way training is split 4 ways with such high seeds for all means that no matter what, every post-cap wizard is going to be pretty mediocre.

This is a good point!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1198
Author: PCOFFEY77
Date: on 01/19/2016 07:51 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


I think the option should be able to be set by the user whether he/she wants the spell recast.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1199
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 01/19/2016 08:14 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


Having a double cast at the full cost of the spell would indeed be a double-edged sword. If anything, I think it lends that option weight as it in a way balances itself. I agree that a flag would be a good option if this solution was implemented.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1200
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 01/19/2016 08:32 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


I still don't think flares are in any way the solution, especially if lores are involved.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1201
Author: PC1234
Date: on 01/19/2016 08:34 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


I would rather have something else if the extra cast costs mana. The mana pulse defense would be more useful for example. Most people are rarely going to see this happen as it is.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1202
Author: CANDIDE
Date: on 01/19/2016 09:04 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


Maybe the next cast can have a seed/lore boost. So if the next spell is Acid bolt and it would have a earth /water lore boosted.

gbb

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1203
Author: MEKK1
Date: on 01/19/2016 10:03 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>>I still don't think flares are in any way the solution, especially if lores are involved.>> LadyFleur

Perhaps an idea from you would help?

Drauz

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1204
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 01/20/2016 01:28 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


Tie a spell to it, and when RF procs, have it cast that spell automatically for no mana.

Like Cloak of Shadows, but in reverse.

Also, make the spell do 100x its normal damage with max crit weighting added, of course.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1205
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 01/20/2016 01:46 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


A couple of changes just rolled around to 515. Here are the details!

- The base cooldown of the spell has changed from 180 seconds to 90 seconds, and the reduction from Elemental Mana Control has changed to (0.3 * (Skill Bonus - 100)). This still results in a 30 second cooldown with 300 skill bonus in EMC, but makes the cooldown more forgiving with less skill in EMC.

- The air lore effect is no longer a chance to get 0s cast RT. It has been changed (With the same % chances) to cause the spell being cast to be channeled without incurring channeling roundtime. So, at 55 ranks of air lore, each spell cast has a 10% chance to be channeled while under the effect of Rapid Fire without hard RT. One thing to note is that when this effect occurs while casting a warding spell, the caster is treated as if they were in offensive stance for the purposes of determining the channeling bonus.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1207
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 01/20/2016 01:57 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


That's a pretty cool change, I can dig it.

I suggest our next move to be to grind a bit more benefit out of channeled bolts :D

Specifically less chance at hitting limbs, would be my personal preference. 46% limb-shot is a little high for the risk IMHO. Lets get that down to around 33% and I think we'll be getting somewheres.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1208
Author: DRAFIX
Date: on 01/20/2016 02:14 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


So instead of going faster, we're going even slower with this 515 change, even when we've voiced that being slower is the cause of most of the problems here.

Instead of 19% chance of doubling my damage, firing my flares off my staff, procing the ensorcelling, I get a 19% chance to slightly increase my damage.

I think this change is a further nerf rather than a boon.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1209
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 01/20/2016 02:19 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


> I think this change is a further nerf rather than a boon.

A large majority of the people speaking up here were saying that the 0s cast RT wasn't even usable and it they wanted something else. Based on that information, simply removing the air lore completely wouldn't have even been a nerf.

This is something different. I'm genuinely sorry you don't like it.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1210
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 01/20/2016 02:20 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


Well, did your cooldown time increase or decrease with this change, Drafix?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1211
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 01/20/2016 02:22 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


DRAFIX
So instead of going faster, we're going even slower with this 515 change, even when we've voiced that being slower is the cause of most of the problems here.
Instead of 19% chance of doubling my damage, firing my flares off my staff, procing the ensorcelling, I get a 19% chance to slightly increase my damage.
I think this change is a further nerf rather than a boon.

You realize a good number of people complained that they didn't like the 0 second castRT effect? Repeatedly. We made a change based upon that feedback. I was personally moved by Methais' campaign to have the previous effect replaced because it was "useless".

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1213
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/20/2016 02:36 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>- The base cooldown of the spell has changed from 180 seconds to 90 seconds, and the reduction from Elemental Mana Control has changed to (0.3 * (Skill Bonus - 100)). This still results in a 30 second cooldown with 300 skill bonus in EMC, but makes the cooldown more forgiving with less skill in EMC.

This is even more of a nerf. I don't understand why 29 seconds was not only not enough, you increased it to 30 seconds. Please reconsider so that it can be reduced further with sufficient post-cap training, not less.

As for the second part, this is better than 0 CT because a human can't use that, but I'm not sure it's enough to address the fact that wizards are now the only pures without the ability to ensure an instant kill with sufficient post-cap training and enhancives. Perhaps someone can run some numbers as to the efficacy of the channeled bolts.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1214
Author: DRAFIX
Date: on 01/20/2016 02:37 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


But you can see how this is a nerf?

Instead of being able to double my damage and proc my runestaff 19% of the time at double mana cost and 0 RT, I can now only slightly boost my damage (nowhere near 2x damage AND I don't get to proc my staff)

Secondly I have voiced before that all you need to do was hold down the incant 901 macro button and anyone can take advantage of this without even needing a script.

I'd much rather have 0 rt double damage/double flares/faster spellups than the very slight difference channel makes.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1215
Author: DRAFIX
Date: on 01/20/2016 02:38 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


Well, did your cooldown time increase or decrease with this change, Drafix?

Since I'm post cap with 202 emc, no change. This however is a positive change for lower level people who can't afford EMC.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1216
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/20/2016 02:39 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>Since I'm post cap with 202 emc, no change. This however is a positive change for lower level people who can't afford EMC.

It did change, since if you have 202 ranks EMC, you went from a 29 second cooldown to a 30 second one now.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1217
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 01/20/2016 03:09 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>The air lore effect is no longer a chance to get 0s cast RT. It has been changed (With the same % chances) to cause the spell being cast to be channeled without incurring channeling roundtime. So, at 55 ranks of air lore, each spell cast has a 10% chance to be channeled while under the effect of Rapid Fire without hard RT. One thing to note is that when this effect occurs while casting a warding spell, the caster is treated as if they were in offensive stance for the purposes of determining the channeling bonus.

What happens if you're casting a spell that you can't channel? Is the whole proc wasted?

>prep 415 You trace a simple rune while intoning the mystical phrase for Elemental Strike... Your spell is ready. >channel shaman You can only channel certain spells for extra power.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1218
Author: DRAFIX
Date: on 01/20/2016 03:10 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


I'm guessing too bad. Just like this change.. too bad.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1219
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 01/20/2016 03:11 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


> What happens if you're casting a spell that you can't channel? Is the whole proc wasted?

The effect can't occur when casting spells that can't be channeled.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1220
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 01/20/2016 03:15 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


How about making Rapid Fire able to be either evoked for the old version, cast for the new one? Or whichever method makes the most sense.

Choices are always nice.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1221
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 01/20/2016 03:18 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>You realize a good number of people complained that they didn't like the 0 second castRT effect? Repeatedly. We made a change based upon that feedback. I was personally moved by Methais' campaign to have the previous effect replaced because it was "useless". -Estild

Technically I said it was useless without a script (or doing this http://rs820.pbsrc.com/albums/zz126/WhatWillComeOfThis/Funny%20Random%20Thingies/218654001_l.gif~c200), so for anyone using a script to take advantage of the 0 RT proc, it is a nerf. I think it would have made more sense to just proc a double cast, whether it costs mana or not. It's not like we'd be doing it with a bunch of extra CS like 240 on a 60% (I think) proc rate, but that's just me.

I'm just curious what happens now when you're casting something that can't be channeled with the new change.

>It did change, since if you have 202 ranks EMC, you went from a 29 second cooldown to a 30 second one now.


>incant 515 >You recite a series of mystical phrases while raising your hands, invoking Rapid Fire... >Your spell is ready. >You gesture. >You feel the magic surge through you. >Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > >[ Rapid Fire: +0:01:00, 0:01:00 remaining. ]

>stop 515 >With a moment's concentration, you terminate the Rapid Fire spell. >You feel the surge of magic depart. >As the surge of magic departs, you feel a slight elemental fatigue settle in. >[ Rapid Fire Recovery: +0:00:29, 0:00:29 remaining. ]


~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1224
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 01/20/2016 03:26 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>The effect can't occur when casting spells that can't be channeled. -Konacon

Regardless of whether I'd be mashing my keyboard for a 0 RT proc before this update(which I probably wouldn't be), factually speaking, this is still a nerf for a large number of spells.

I don't really have a problem with the current proc, but the oversight that it's nerfing spells that don't channel should still be addressed.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1225
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/20/2016 03:26 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>>[ Rapid Fire Recovery: +0:00:29, 0:00:29 remaining. ]

Are you sure that the 1 second didn't go by between your incant and stop? The update post said 30 seconds.

Still, the cooldown is too long post-cap and a flare that is less than 10% for the average user doesn't address the fact that the other pures can achieve guaranteed, effective instant kills with their CS spells and wizards can't.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1228
Author: ASHRAAM
Date: on 01/20/2016 03:38 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>>Regardless of whether I'd be mashing my keyboard for a 0 RT proc before this update(which I probably wouldn't be), factually speaking, this is still a nerf for a large number of spells.

It might be a slight gain in the mana department and save you a few casts as long as you're using something to deal damage that does have channel benefits. I imagine channeling bolts or 519/502 will require 10% fewer casts in a single hunt because you get 20% chance to inflict extra damage via channel?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1229
Author: DRAFIX
Date: on 01/20/2016 03:38 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>>[ Rapid Fire Recovery: +0:00:29, 0:00:29 remaining. ] That 29 second duration was based on the old formula. Obviously what is being displayed there is old information before this new spell change cough I mean nerf cough.

202 emc ranks = 302 skill. The new formula is:

90 seconds - trunc((302 skill - 100) * 0.3) = 30 seconds.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1230
Author: DRAFIX
Date: on 01/20/2016 03:41 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


I imagine channeling bolts or 519/502 will require 10% fewer casts in a single hunt because you get 20% chance to inflict extra damage via channel?

502 - wrong. Damage is capped on 502 such that even if you had a +500 end roll you'd still be doing about 65 damage total. 519 - Even with the concussion boost, 519 channeled version will add +20 to your end roll result which results in a negligible boost to damage. (asusming you have 1 empty hand while using a runestaff)

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1231
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/20/2016 03:51 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


The cooldown doesn't make sense to be lowered at lower levels, while further penalizing the capped and post-capped characters, because the post-cap group is the one with the mana to use 515 on a more regular basis in the first place. Secondly, the fact that this spell can STILL be cast on others just makes no sense given all of the other ways it was nerfed for wizards themselves. Outside users are the ones who can afford the 5 mana penalty and lowering the cooldown for them really makes no sense.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1232
Author: CANDIDE
Date: on 01/20/2016 03:54 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


Holding down the incant 901 macro or scripting this to my advantage isn't something I care about. I can see that IF by some miracle I began to take advantage of this by scripting it would be wonderful but I like the idea of casting different spells for benefit (like 504/912 or 410 or 909/502/519 or bolt of my choice/ in the first 3 seconds of seeing a creature)

GBB

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1233
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 01/20/2016 03:55 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>It might be a slight gain in the mana department and save you a few casts as long as you're using something to deal damage that does have channel benefits. I imagine channeling bolts or 519/502 will require 10% fewer casts in a single hunt because you get 20% chance to inflict extra damage via channel?

Maybe, but I find myself casting 415 a lot more than 519 now. It's just better than Immolate in situations where you want damage. Plus it frequently knocks the target down. It's not really some earth shattering deal, I just think it's kind of weak just based on principle that a lot of spells are going to lose an option with Rapid Fire, even if it was a weak option, which is still better than no option.

Combat spells that can't be channeled:

501 504 (has multi-target version with air lore, I know) 505 (CS version, I'm assuming Tonis Bolt can be channeled) 512 (lol) 514 516 525 (lol) 530

912 914 915 917

409 412 413 415 417



~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1234
Author: DRAFIX
Date: on 01/20/2016 04:00 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


Combat spells that can't be channeled:

that's just the offensive spells.. what about every other utility and defensive spell?

401 402 403 404 405 406 407 408 411 414 416 418 419 420

List gets absurd. This change alienates 95% of the spells from the lore benefits. The benefit itself is a mere fraction of what it used to be.

I like the suggestion of evoke version of 515 for the old 0 cast RT. Give the new channeling change for the people who are too lazy to use a script or not intelligent enough to hold down the repeat key.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1235
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 01/20/2016 04:03 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


I't be awesome to see a channeled version of 409 and 415.

Make it so!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1236
Author: JACKBLACK
Date: on 01/20/2016 04:04 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>> You realize a good number of people complained that they didn't like the 0 second castRT effect? Repeatedly. We made a change based upon that feedback. I was personally moved by Methais' campaign to have the previous effect replaced because it was "useless".

>> GameMaster Estild

To be fair... listening to any players after a nerf and making changes on those suggestions BEFORE allowing the players to really explore the changes, is simply a bad idea. There is just no way anyone had time to really comprehend and/or play with the new spell so, to be completely honest, their complaints should probably have been ignored.

Instead there's a change that maybe wasn't needed in the first place and results in a perceived further "nerf" to the ability.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1237
Author: CANDIDE
Date: on 01/20/2016 04:04 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


Why not just set it to those spells that cant be channeled dont trigger the effect and its simply carried over?

gbb

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1238
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/20/2016 04:07 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>There is just no way anyone had time to really comprehend and/or play with the new spell so, to be completely honest, their complaints should probably have been ignored.

You don't have to hunt for a month to see what is wrong with the updated spell. Some things are just painfully obvious when you're post-cap and know what things should be and what they aren't achieving.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1239
Author: DOUG
Date: on 01/20/2016 04:21 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>>cough I mean nerf cough.

A little late to the party with this one, so apologies. Also, betting this will be the unpopular opinion by a very wide margin, so again - apologies in advance.

Holy crap, gang! Nerf? Really?!

Couple of perspectives here - first and foremost, the team took 90 seconds (NINETY SECONDS) off of the base formula, to the benefit of every single wizard character in the lands pre-cap. Every. Single. One.

Now, true - very true - the net result adds 1 second (ONE SECOND) onto the back-end, and that does in fact impact the well-post-capped wizard.

Let's combine those two thoughts for just a moment. For the first 95 to 100 levels, the wizard character gets a benefit via this change. That may affect some 200 or so wizards (guessing). Then, some time passes where that benefit isn't quite the benefit it might be considered to be. At some point in there, the well-post-capped wizard will finally finish out that last rank of EMC training, and the net result will be that from that point forward, they're losing out on a 1 second return.

To really drive it home, I can't think of more than 5 wizards presently active who have spent enough time post-cap with enough EMC ranks to tick off those 1 second adds that might, maybe have a leg to stand on that they've finally accumulated more in 1-second loss than they experienced in the prior 100 (85, actually) levels gain based on this new formula.

Now - I know, that's bound by the fact that we went from 'zero' to 'something' just days past. I get it. But, I mean, really - generations of wizards yet to be created will reap massive benefits. If I have to give up that 1 second on an old character to gain the benefit on new characters, I'm in.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1240
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/20/2016 04:32 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>To really drive it home, I can't think of more than 5 wizards presently active who have spent enough time post-cap with enough EMC ranks to tick off those 1 second adds that might, maybe have a leg to stand on that they've finally accumulated more in 1-second loss than they experienced in the prior 100 (85, actually) levels gain based on this new formula.

So just because it only affects a few, those few who have spent the most time in the lands should accept being even less than the lesser they were made to be? Glad you enjoy it. Don't speak for everyone.

>Now - I know, that's bound by the fact that we went from 'zero' to 'something' just days past. I get it. But, I mean, really - generations of wizards yet to be created will reap massive benefits. If I have to give up that 1 second on an old character to gain the benefit on new characters, I'm in.

No one should aspire to lower their end potential. What is the point?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1241
Author: DRAFIX
Date: on 01/20/2016 04:33 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>>cough I mean nerf cough.
A little late to the party with this one, so apologies. Also, betting this will be the unpopular opinion by a very wide margin, so again - apologies in advance.
Holy crap, gang! Nerf? Really?!
Couple of perspectives here - first and foremost, the team took 90 seconds (NINETY SECONDS) off of the base formula, to the benefit of every single wizard character in the lands pre-cap. Every. Single. One.
Now, true - very true - the net result adds 1 second (ONE SECOND) onto the back-end, and that does in fact impact the well-post-capped wizard.
Let's combine those two thoughts for just a moment. For the first 95 to 100 levels, the wizard character gets a benefit via this change. That may affect some 200 or so wizards (guessing). Then, some time passes where that benefit isn't quite the benefit it might be considered to be. At some point in there, the well-post-capped wizard will finally finish out that last rank of EMC training, and the net result will be that from that point forward, they're losing out on a 1 second return.
To really drive it home, I can't think of more than 5 wizards presently active who have spent enough time post-cap with enough EMC ranks to tick off those 1 second adds that might, maybe have a leg to stand on that they've finally accumulated more in 1-second loss than they experienced in the prior 100 (85, actually) levels gain based on this new formula.
Now - I know, that's bound by the fact that we went from 'zero' to 'something' just days past. I get it. But, I mean, really - generations of wizards yet to be created will reap massive benefits. If I have to give up that 1 second on an old character to gain the benefit on new characters, I'm in.
Doug

Way to glaze over the last 10 posts regarding what nerf we're talking about and to go on to talk about the only 1 positive thing I didn't say was a nerf... do you even read bro?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1242
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/20/2016 04:34 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


Literally all this does is continue to benefit the pocket mage, the pocket MA wizard who is not someone's main who goes around casting 515 at some other, actually powerful profession (see clerics or sorcerers), instead of the post-cap wizard themselves. Considering the prevalence of pocket buff and enchanting wizards was a large reason all these nerfs had to happen in the first place, catering to them hardly seems like a desirable goal.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1243
Author: DOUG
Date: on 01/20/2016 04:42 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>>So just because it only affects a few, those few who have spent the most time in the lands should accept being even less than the lesser they were made to be? Glad you enjoy it. Don't speak for everyone.

Thanks! But I'm not. I said "I'm in." Didn't say you were, or had to be, or anything of the sort. Offered a perspective - didn't speak for anyone else.

>>No one should aspire to lower their end potential. What is the point?

Not sure I get this. But I'll take a running stab. This is a multi-player game, not a single-player best shootout game. The point, specifically, is that I am welcoming a change to the game that seems to be in the interests of multiple players (or at least, characters).

>>Way to glaze over the last 10 posts regarding what nerf we're talking about and to go on to talk about the only 1 positive thing I didn't say was a nerf... do you even read bro?

Absolutely fair question - I thought I did, but I might have been guilty of a bit of glazing. I'll go back and reread - and self-correct as necessary. Thanks for pointing it out. But before I do, let me just say that I while I quoted you, Drafix (or at least, referred to your nerf cough ;), my response wasn't singularly targeted.

I'm going to guess, though, that by the responses I quoted and replied to above - as well as those others sure to follow, I'm fairly certain I didn't glaze too much. More to follow, as needed. . .

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1244
Author: DRAFIX
Date: on 01/20/2016 04:49 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


But you can see how this is a nerf?
Instead of being able to double my damage and proc my runestaff 19% of the time at double mana cost and 0 RT, I can now only slightly boost my damage (nowhere near 2x damage AND I don't get to proc my staff)
Secondly I have voiced before that all you need to do was hold down the incant 901 macro button and anyone can take advantage of this without even needing a script.
I'd much rather have 0 rt double damage/double flares/faster spellups than the very slight difference channel makes.

Also also the fact that spells that cannot be channeled get no lore benefit from this spell anymore. That's pretty much 95% of all the spells, every defensive spell, every utility spell, a ton of offensive spells like 410/912/409/415/417.

That's the nerf.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1245
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/20/2016 04:51 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>The point, specifically, is that I am welcoming a change to the game that seems to be in the interests of multiple players (or at least, characters).

Actually, the point of all these nerfs seems to have been that there are TOO many wizards, period, so why would we want to encourage MORE pocket mages to be raised? 515 still isn't self-cast and lowering the cooldown threshold only punishes those who actually use the spell (post-capped) to benefit those who use them as pocket mages.

Do you really think more younger wizards, who actually play wizard mains, are suddenly going to use 515 more now that their cooldown is lower? No, they will still have the same mana issues they had even under the pre-nerf 515. The ones who actually benefit from this, again at the expense of people with wizard mains, are the non-wizards.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1246
Author: DOUG
Date: on 01/20/2016 04:55 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>> I thought I did, but I might have been guilty of a bit of glazing. I'll go back and reread - and self-correct as necessary. Thanks for pointing it out.

And the end result is yes - thank you, Drafix. I used your nerf comment, but didn't tie it at all to your discussion about proc chances and getting to double down on other items that gave you material benefit.

And so, I am sorry. I still stand by my point - but shouldn't have attributed your comment in my perspective. I'll strive to do better.

For my own personal curiosity, Drafix - does this change literally prevent your runestaff proc? Or is it the chance of a / an additional proc in the same second (presuming you're fast enough ;) that is lost?

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1247
Author: DOUG
Date: on 01/20/2016 04:58 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>>Considering the prevalence of pocket buff and enchanting wizards was a large reason all these nerfs had to happen in the first place, catering to them hardly seems like a desirable goal.

This might be a valid counter-point to my perspective. I'm not sure I'm bought in just yet, but if every single wizard draws benefit from this change, the subgroup of wizard that is 'pocket, keep haste / rapidfire up on partner profession' is in that group. That's logical.

I wonder if the change was only to the self-cast, and when active non-natively (cast on another) the old time standard still applies. Anyone?

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1248
Author: DOUG
Date: on 01/20/2016 05:08 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>>Do you really think more younger wizards, who actually play wizard mains, are suddenly going to use 515 more now that their cooldown is lower?

Suddenly? No, I suspect a great many of those who until very recently used RapdFire are either pissed, or trying to sort through their tactics now to figure out how best to advance. Or both?

But, as tactics get sorted out, I think more 'younger' (meaning not post-cap here) will start using the spell again. And I further emphasize that this is now potentially a viable tactic for those wizards who are even younger than 'younger', because of the significant time shift.

I don't realistically expect the 15th level mage to start relying on this spell as a staple. But then - I never did have that expectation.

To the rest of your point - I'm still on 'jury is out'. If the time affects both self cast and other cast, I'd say the concern about pocket wizards is valid. I am just hopeful the NIR team saw that one in advance, and are smiling about their intended response.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1249
Author: DRAFIX
Date: on 01/20/2016 05:09 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


With 0 rt it is a free action. That means the 901 you just cast didn't cost you any RT to cast it, therefore you can instantly cast again.

If that point is lost to you, then the benefits of 0 rt haste II and old rapid fire would be lost to you. If you don't see how 0 rt results in a boon, I don't know how else to explain it to you.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1250
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/20/2016 05:10 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>If the time affects both self cast and other cast, I'd say the concern about pocket wizards is valid. I am just hopeful the NIR team saw that one in advance, and are smiling about their intended response.

515 shouldn't be allowed to be other cast at all, just as 215 isn't, without a lot of lore and the wizard present and grouped. If it wasn't available to outside users, the nerfs should not have had to be so onerous nor should much of a post-cap cooldown have been required at all. 1 second CT and non-stackability already reduced the spell's benefits significantly. The cooldown while still allowing other cast is overkill.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1251
Author: DRAFIX
Date: on 01/20/2016 05:14 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


People who complained that they couldn't take advantage of 0 rt proc are basically saying they can't use Haste II or old rapid fire because they are too slow to hold down a button. I cannot honestly believe how people find holding onto a button on the keyboard a difficult thing to do.

Seriously, it's easy, try it ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;. Really not that hard.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1252
Author: RROY
Date: on 01/20/2016 05:15 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


Well at 88 trains and singled in the pertinent skills I went from 1:30 cooldown to 1:00 so its a buff for me there, and the channeled effect is more useful than that 0 sec rt proc, so I'm liking these changes. The extra cast of spell was a nice idea too though.

Just an elf about town...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1253
Author: RAGGLER
Date: on 01/20/2016 05:16 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


Unfortunately this actually is a really huge nerf. What some of you guys are forgetting is EMC enhancives. Sure 202 ranks of EMC brought the previous version down to 29 seconds of cooldown and the new one brings it down to 30, but the real nerf is that under the previous version, I had already brought my cooldown down to 4 seconds with +50 EMC enhancives, but now under the new version, I can only bring it to 15 seconds. I'm hoping we can come to a bit more of a compromise.

Isle Snack Muncher

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1254
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/20/2016 05:16 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>People who complained that they couldn't take advantage of 0 rt proc are basically saying they can't use Haste II or old rapid fire because they are too slow to hold down a button. I cannot honestly believe how people find holding onto a button on the keyboard a difficult thing to do.

I don't think anyone said they can't hold down a button, but holding down a button isn't a reasonable solution for the problem. It's not only annoying, but can be construed as DDOS on the system if you hammer type ahead lines too hard and can get you disconnected if the game is lagging heavily (see Duskruin).

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1255
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/20/2016 05:19 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>Unfortunately this actually is a really huge nerf. What some of you guys are forgetting is EMC enhancives. Sure 202 ranks of EMC brought the previous version down to 29 seconds of cooldown and the new one brings it down to 30, but the real nerf is that under the previous version, I had already brought my cooldown down to 4 seconds with +50 EMC enhancives, but now under the new version, I can only bring it to 15 seconds. I'm hoping we can come to a bit more of a compromise.

I hope we can go back to no worse than the original cooldown. I'd rather have the first update than the new.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1256
Author: DOUG
Date: on 01/20/2016 05:26 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>>If you don't see how 0 rt results in a boon, I don't know how else to explain it to you.

Look, I know this hits hard (speaking about the whole RapidFire situation). And I assure you, that part you don't need to explain. I suspect you already know that.

Thanks for clarifying the runestaff proc does still happen under 515, it just isn't free anymore.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1258
Author: DRAFIX
Date: on 01/20/2016 05:29 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


Typeahead lines are a commodity sold by Simutronics to premium subscribers and people who BUY them using premium points. The fact that you don't have them is not really the issue here.

Even holding onto the button is limited in speed by your keyboard's repeat settings. It could be set to repeat twice per second or as fast as possible. You could easily have just timed it so that you hit the key 3 times per second or 5 times per second. How often you hit the key is not my concern.

My concern is people complaining that they can't hit one key repeatedly to take advantage of the 0 rt free action. If they complain about having arthritis issues or not having fingers or have the reaction time of a slot, then hold down the key by all means and have it repeat 3 times a second.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1259
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/20/2016 05:31 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>Typeahead lines are a commodity sold by Simutronics to premium subscribers and people who BUY them using premium points. The fact that you don't have them is not really the issue here.

I don't know where I said I didn't have them, but even those are limited, nor should they be required for basic spell benefits to function. That defeats the whole purpose.

>Even holding onto the button is limited in speed by your keyboard's repeat settings. It could be set to repeat twice per second or as fast as possible. You could easily have just timed it so that you hit the key 3 times per second or 5 times per second. How often you hit the key is not my concern. My concern is people complaining that they can't hit one key repeatedly to take advantage of the 0 rt free action. If they complain about having arthritis issues or not having fingers or have the reaction time of a slot, then hold down the key by all means and have it repeat 3 times a second.

You may enjoy that, but this is nothing but annoying and unreasonable. Even Methais agrees.

However, the cooldown formula change is a deal-breaker, as it further protects the pocket mage and outside users of 515 instead of capped wizards.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1260
Author: DOUG
Date: on 01/20/2016 05:32 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>>What some of you guys are forgetting is EMC enhancives.

Ahh, yep. I'll own not thinking about the 'above max enhancive' crowd.

Hell, as far as I'm concerned, anyone who has taken the time to collect (and actively wears, I might add) +50 in EMC enhancement devices deserves to have that +50 taken right off the front end, not the back end, of the formula. For for that matter, any enhancive EMC item at any level should function that way, perhaps.

Um. . .self cast only, though, please - for reasons I hope are obvious.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1261
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/20/2016 05:34 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>Um. . .self cast only, though, please - for reasons I hope are obvious.

If the entire spell were self-cast only, wizards wouldn't have to suffer such drastic tradeoffs.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1262
Author: DOUG
Date: on 01/20/2016 05:42 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>>515 shouldn't be allowed to be other cast at all, just as 215 isn't, without a lot of lore and the wizard present and grouped. If it wasn't available to outside users, the nerfs should not have had to be so onerous nor should much of a post-cap cooldown have been required at all. 1 second CT and non-stackability already reduced the spell's benefits significantly. The cooldown while still allowing other cast is overkill.

Not really anything to disagree with here. Just a note - we have no real idea all the discussions had by the dev team. This exact scenario might (hey, I did say might) have been discussed and discarded for some reason.

I mean, let's be frank - Estild was involved in both. If the end result is different, I'm banking there's a reason, even if I don't understand it.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1263
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/20/2016 05:47 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>Not really anything to disagree with here. Just a note - we have no real idea all the discussions had by the dev team. This exact scenario might (hey, I did say might) have been discussed and discarded for some reason.

>I mean, let's be frank - Estild was involved in both. If the end result is different, I'm banking there's a reason, even if I don't understand it.

I agree we don't know what the internal discussions were, which is why we're revisiting this issue. Just as it was original said that self-cast haste wasn't possible because "that ship has sailed", in Wyrom's words, it's clear that it was deemed best for wizard development rather than the original proposal.

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask that Rapid Fire be revisited in the same fashion. The end result is that pocket mages and other users were protected at the expense of capped and post-cap wizards, who were meant to be the primary users of the spell to begin with. The end result is that already with the loss of 0 CT, wizards lost the ability to guarantee effective crowd control and instant kills when they are sufficiently post-cap, which other pures are still able to do.

It's ridiculous to see low level pocket mages parked outside a warcamp in a safe spot so that some sorcerer can pop in and out to get a 515 buff and farm necro energy. It further adds insult to injury when you consider how unbalanced ensorcell risk, reward, and time factors are compared to enchanting, but that is for another discussion.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1265
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 01/20/2016 06:08 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


I have to admit I'm a bit surprised it didn't end up being self-cast only. I guess I should be glad? I dunno. I would bet it's used more for MA action than anything else. Are people really using this in group hunting on characters that aren't their own? Are other classes spells nerfed to be 'balanced' when under 515 or are wizard spells (bolts & 502) unique in that regard?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1266
Author: DOUG
Date: on 01/20/2016 06:14 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>>The end result is that pocket mages and other users were protected at the expense of capped and post-cap wizards, who were meant to be the primary users of the spell to begin with.

Yeah, well. . . damn. I'm still on the fence a bit, but I'm satisfied that the target's lore affects the spell, and that it's the same native or no.

Not that I'd wish ill on anyone, but the one clear signal we could have had . . . no smiling.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1267
Author: DOUG
Date: on 01/20/2016 06:18 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


So. . .

anyone up for 0 CT, 1 minute hard duration, Water Lore and Air Lore as presently designed, cool down as presently designed, spell not autoprepped and only self cast?

Sheesh.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1268
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 01/20/2016 06:21 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>> People who complained that they couldn't take advantage of 0 rt proc are basically saying they can't use Haste II or old rapid fire because they are too slow to hold down a button. I cannot honestly believe how people find holding onto a button on the keyboard a difficult thing to do.

>> Seriously, it's easy, try it

Some people prefer not to hunt by spamming commands as fast as the computer / internet will process them without regards to what is actually happening on the screen. 0 second RT pretty much caters to spamming or macroing. Anyone reading anything on the screen and responding accordingly would not benefit from that 0 seconds. The new benefit at least allows for everyone using the spell to benefit from it to some degree.

Seriously, think about it... really not that hard to understand.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul." Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1269
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/20/2016 06:23 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>Yeah, well. . . damn. I'm still on the fence a bit, but I'm satisfied that the target's lore affects the spell, and that it's the same native or no.

I'm not satisfied with that because you know who can afford to ignore any cooldown mana penalties and just keep re-casting? The sorcerers and clerics using 302 and 702, that both have much higher damage and can access more CS boosters than wizards and their 502. Not to mention, for outside users who are meant to primarily be CS-based spell users, they can ignore any spirit drain penalties and hunt almost endlessly under this method. In comparison, wizards still largely have to keep spirit high enough to bolt as effectively as possible, since their CS-based spells both cost more and are less effective.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1270
Author: DOUG
Date: on 01/20/2016 06:32 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>>I'm not satisfied with that

Yeah, I apparently didn't make my point clear.

I've satisfied for myself - in the sense that I just went and tested it - that the design is the same, native or non-native. Not that I was happy it was that way. Quite the opposite, that's completely counter to what I would have expected in a 'reasonable' design.

That's why I made the comment that I wouldn't like to take things away from people - but now I have to fall completely in the camp of 'why does this even make sense'. Which ultimately led me to my next post.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1272
Author: RROY
Date: on 01/20/2016 06:36 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


I liked the 0 sec rt, but it really needed to change. A lot of people have been hunting with the walk into the room and blast everything instantly style. Now with the slowdown it will force us to use more caution and tactics.

I notice the script hunters whom may or may not even be at their keyboards have been hunting in my areas less and when they do, theres still some critters left for everyone else... So thats a benefit in and of itself.

Just an elf about town...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1273
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/20/2016 06:37 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>That's why I made the comment that I wouldn't like to take things away from people - but now I have to fall completely in the camp of 'why does this even make sense'. Which ultimately led me to my next post.

I don't like to take things away from people either, but I always believe that spell nerfs should protect their first and foremost end users before considering other classes, which were never intended to use them on a regular basis in the first place. When other profession-based spells were nerfed, everyone understood and accepted it (see 319). Wizards should not have to pay higher than necessary nerf penalties to protect other cast uses for other professions that can make more efficient and effective use of the spell, since it is not balanced around them.

You're right, it makes no sense.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1274
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/20/2016 06:39 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>anyone up for 0 CT, 1 minute hard duration, Water Lore and Air Lore as presently designed, cool down as presently designed, spell not autoprepped and only self cast?

I think it's clear 0 CT is off the table for good. In light of that, I think self-cast and no cool down by cap (2x EMC) is reasonable.

However, something also needs to be done to address the fact that wizards now have no effective crowd control disabler and instant kill mechanism on a near guaranteed basis, the way the other pures still do.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1277
Author: KANDOR
Date: on 01/20/2016 07:00 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


I have little doubt that screen scroll contributed to the need for these changes. Look at what 506 and 515 had in common.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1278
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/20/2016 07:06 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


240/317 and 240/1115 cause just as much, if not more, screen scroll as 515. It's the double nerf of 0 CT and removal of 519's effectiveness that really crippled a wizard's post-cap ability to guarantee effective crowd control and reliable instant kills on the same level as the other pures.

As for 506's offensive capabilities, it largely achieves the same effect as before with sufficient training. You know who it was nerfed for? Non-wizards, which is how 515 changes should have been addressed to start.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1279
Author: DRAFIX
Date: on 01/20/2016 07:07 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


I have little doubt that screen scroll contributed to the need for these changes. Look at what 506 and 515 had in common.

Yet.. nothing has changed in 506. I can still attack in 1 rt. But now my disarm/detect/pick box is also 1 rt. Overall it has been boosted so I can spam even faster with 506. If you haven't seen me clean up the bench or loot the room before then I can see how you can make the assumption that screen scroll was caused solely by rapid fire and haste. Trust me, screen scroll and general mass scrolling of text can easily be created by movement scripts. Your logic is sadly flawed.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1280
Author: CAPTAINREDBEARD
Date: on 01/20/2016 07:10 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


Since 2008 I have been playing a wizard in one form or another and was fine with them how they are. There was talking initially starting with Naos of an E-Lore review to spice up the profession and make it more interesting and make the lore training a meaningful part of the training. It would require nerfing haste/rapid fire, but in the end we would get too see a beautiful master plan of wizards in harmony with lore training unfold. What has become obvious over the last few months is that there is no beautiful plan for wizards, people (GM's) are just current just throwing crap together in no coherent way. Changing things overnight based on player feedback. You guys need to rollback ALL of these changes and start over with a plan.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1281
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 01/20/2016 07:10 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


I think arguing for the 0RT thing is misguided. The only way to benefit from that is by mashing. By the time you see "0RT" process that, react, and have that instruction arrive at the SIMU servers, you are almost certainly burned through most, if not all, of that 1sec.

This is why we were pushing for double-cast. An automatic double-cast would fix the timing issue of trying to react in under a second without changing the damage of the effect. I'm not sure why this was so quickly dismissed as an option by the GMs.

To be clear, I don't mind the recent solution. But since I don't use 515 very often, my opinion might not be most useful.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1282
Author: CANDIDE
Date: on 01/20/2016 08:38 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


I will say that I see where the scripting, quick button pressing/mashing crowd see this as 20 percent of the time I could get a 100 percent increase in damage instead of 20 percent of the time I get a 20-40 percent increase in damage (though now with channeled bolts that would be better), but I still would rather keep the 1 second rt. I think this is a good change that just needs the right oomph where the "nerf" is just a change.

I do not know why the down time calculation was changed, maybe it was because someone had already gotten it down to 4 seconds reup and the GM's didn't want that. Maybe it was because they wanted Wizards between 15-100 a chance of using it a bit more. Maybe a little bit of both.

I do not see a circumstance where 29 seconds would be the savior instead of 30 though.

Making this spell self cast only would annoy me personally (as an archer that casts 404 on a bard) but I can see advantage if wizards can get back the 100 percent uptime.

I really do not care for the 4 hours stacking.

In the end what has been taken from wizards with Rapid Fire changes? The ability to instantly kill something? I really think that Wizards will be able to kill fast enough now. It would be nice if wizards had something like 316 or 1120 or 504 was more room capable but maybe we have to all be air lore users now.

GBB

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1283
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/20/2016 08:40 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>In the end what has been taken from wizards with Rapid Fire changes? The ability to instantly kill something? I really think that Wizards will be able to kill fast enough now. It would be nice if wizards had something like 316 or 1120 or 504 was more room capable but maybe we have to all be air lore users now.

Please don't say this with a straight face as a bard main with 1030.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1284
Author: CANDIDE
Date: on 01/20/2016 09:27 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


Everyone always runs back to 1030 at bards. I hunt warcamps all the time (where is was nerfed) no 1030. Stop with the you have it so well you have xxx. In my case I play a capped Bard/Cleric/Wizard/ just about equally now. Concentrate on what it will take to get Wizards to a point where what has been done to 515 is forgiven/forgotten.

"It would be nice if wizards had something like 316 or 1120 or 504 was more room capable.GBB"

Like that.

GBB

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1285
Author: DRAFIX
Date: on 01/20/2016 11:49 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


A shan warrior rolls around on the ground, trying to smother the flames that surround it. A shan warrior struggles to rise but fails in the attempt. >l [Vornavian Coast, Forest Road] Bushes close in around the path here, and appear to persist on the path in spite of being regularly cut back. Brambles and thorn bushes sport vibrant flowers, but bite and tear at anyone or anything coming too close. You also see the yellow Drafix disk, a gleaming silver flamberge and a shan warrior that is lying down. Obvious paths: north, south The flames surrounding a shan warrior flare up violently... 

  ... 5 points of damage!
  Minor burns to back.  Looks uncomfortable.

The flames around a shan warrior continue to burn! A shan warrior struggles to rise but fails in the attempt. The flames surrounding a shan warrior flare up violently... 

  ... 5 points of damage!
  Minor burns to right leg.  That hurts a bit.

The flames around a shan warrior continue to burn! A shan warrior struggles to rise but fails in the attempt. The flames surrounding a shan warrior flare up violently... 

  ... 10 points of damage!
  Minor burns to back.  Looks uncomfortable.

The shan warrior howls out one last time and dies.


Still moving when on fire. Are you sure it's applying RT. Doesn't seem like anything works... except the nerfs...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1286
Author: DRAFIX
Date: on 01/20/2016 11:50 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


If there were any doubt, that was the evoked version.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1287
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 01/21/2016 01:11 AM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Drafix
Still moving when on fire.

Please post a complete log, from cast until the spell wears off.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1288
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 01/21/2016 06:14 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>anyone up for 0 CT, 1 minute hard duration, Water Lore and Air Lore as presently designed, cool down as presently designed, spell not autoprepped and only self cast?

I'm all for it. Unfortunately I doubt the GMs will be, so our only hope is that they actually address bolts in a meaningful way instead of putting band-aids on cancer and telling us to be grateful.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1289
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 01/21/2016 06:17 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


Why not just make Rapid Fire work like Celerity with the cooldown? As in wizards get no cooldown, everyone else gets the cooldown that's in place. If you're worried about other classes training down the cooldown, then remove that part of it.

Maybe I missed a post, but I still haven't heard the reasoning for wizards getting a cooldown on it.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1290
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 01/21/2016 06:25 AM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


I realize it's an ice creature and the "on fire" effect doesn't apply, as shown in the messaging. But shouldn't the initial RT still be applying? This is evoke btw.


You gesture at a huge ice elemental. 

 CS: +530 - TD: +366 + CvA: +25 + d100: +84 == +273
 Warding failed!

Wisps of black smoke swirl around a huge ice elemental and it bursts into flame causing 59 points of damage! 

  ... 70 points of damage!
  ... 80 points of damage!
  ... 50 points of damage!
  ... 30 points of damage!

The flame surrounding a huge ice elemental quickly die down. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.



look [Elemental Confluence - ] The terrain is a thick quagmire of mud and crushed rock. Bubbles rise to the surface with wet gurgles, sending malodorous vapor into the air. Fiery jets shoot up from the depths of the muck, occasionally igniting the vapor with sickly virescent sparks. You also see a huge ice elemental and a pink tourmaline. Obvious paths: east, south, southwest, west >Your ora claidhmore warms up some. > A huge ice elemental releases a wave of cold blue energy at you! An airy mist quickly gathers around you, carrying a harsh chill with it. 

 CS: +350 - TD: +487 + CvA: +14 + d100: +40 - -5 == -78
 Warded off!

The mist leaves a thin layer of ice on the entire lower half of your body, but you easily shake it off.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1291
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 01/21/2016 07:09 AM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Methais
I realize it's an ice creature and the "on fire" effect doesn't apply, as shown in the messaging. But shouldn't the initial RT still be applying? This is evoke btw.

No, as the disabling effect is due to the creature rolling around trying to extinguish the flame.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1292
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 01/21/2016 07:35 AM PST
Subject: Stone Skin (520) Update


I've made a small update to Stone Skin (520) such that the lore benefit for the reactive flare now uses a seed 1 summation to determine the chance to trigger. In addition, the flare's minimal damage has been significantly raised. Both of these updates only apply toward creature attackers.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1293
Author: DRUMPEL
Date: on 01/21/2016 08:01 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


>I've made a small update to Stone Skin (520) such that the lore benefit for the reactive flare now uses a seed 1 summation to determine the chance to trigger. In addition, the flare's minimal damage has been significantly raised. Both of these updates only apply toward creature attackers. >GameMaster Estild

I don't know....while the gesture is nice to see the benefit of the spell improved, the spell itself is not any better. I've only actually had stoneskin save my hide once. I was able to escape with about 3 health once the 5+ round stun wore off - thankfully I was in defensive stance when I got charged, gored and knocked on my back.

This was pre vibe flares. The vibe flares wouldn't have made a difference then even if I had a 15% chance for the flare to trigger (126 EL:E ranks) like I currently have.

I don't know....it just feels wrong to walk around with something that covers my whole body and it vibrates when touched.

I appreciate the bump on the seed, but it still lacks in its current form unless the flares have the ability to remove limbs or crit kill on a constant basis. Even then, what fun is it to be stunned, bleeding and laying next to a dead creature only to have more walk in and finish you off?

I still think the whole direction for what Stoneskin should do and what it currently does...I doubt the spell will ever shift direction to actually make it truly beneficial.

Keep plugging away, some day we might meet at the crossroads with a compromise.

-Drumpel

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1294
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 01/21/2016 08:13 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


Drumpel
I don't know....while the gesture is nice to see the benefit of the spell improved, the spell itself is not any better.

As I noted in another thread, this was a quick fix. Something I could immediately do to make the spell better. If you don't think it was worth it, we'll avoid such things in the future and spells can stay as they are until such a time as they are fully reviewed.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1295
Author: CAPTAINREDBEARD
Date: on 01/21/2016 08:22 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


>>If you don't think it was worth it, we'll avoid such things in the future and spells can stay as they are until such a time as they are fully reviewed.


Thats the thought you should have had months ago. You shouldn't have done any of this until a solid plan and review of wizards was possible.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1296
Author: DRUMPEL
Date: on 01/21/2016 09:06 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


>As I noted in another thread, this was a quick fix. Something I could immediately do to make the spell better. If you don't think it was worth it, we'll avoid such things in the future and spells can stay as they are until such a time as they are fully reviewed.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the hard work you guys put into the game, but some things just aren't worth it. You guys certainly have ideas and you're trying to adjust things here and there, but Stoneskin is kind of a lost cause and the slight flare chance to maybe, kind of hurt someone (maybe, if it even does flare) doesn't help the spell out. I probably have one of the few wizards (if not the only one) that even has enough EL:E ranks to achieve the 15% chance to have stoneskin flare.

With how lores benefit (or detract from, depends on how you view it) spells and with some of the current changes in spells....I now have to train in a single lore to keep the similar results that the old Haste used to provide.

Certainly I can choose to not train in Air Lore, but then I'm just leaving my wizard open to more chances of taking a beating or dying because I'm stuck in a longer RT. I can try to adjust to things now, but none of my other spells have changed to benefit the neutered Haste RT reduction for those that don't heavily train in Air Lore.

For now, I walk around wearing vibrating stoneskin - just don't have people touch me, I guess. Most likely it wouldn't flare if they did touch me, but we can't be taking that chance, can we?

As it currently stands, all wizards are better off training in Air Lore to help maintain the highest RT reduction we can achieve for the new Haste spell and we shouldn't really bother much with Water lore nor Earth Lore. Fire lore gives you the added damage bonus for 1 attack thru 425 and at least gives you a slight boost to instant kill for Immolation.

I could certainly post more on how I feel about all the changes - positive and negative, but I don't wish to get in a pissing match with NIRs or other people on the boards. We all have varying views on the recent changes made. It's just hard on the players end to take in these dramatic changes.

Like I said in my last post, keep plugging away at it. I'm sure we'll find a happy medium somewhere. Right now, on the player's end, we're just not there.

-Drumple

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1297
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 01/21/2016 09:11 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


Drumple
Certainly I can choose to not train in Air Lore, but then I'm just leaving my wizard open to more chances of taking a beating or dying because I'm stuck in a longer RT. I can try to adjust to things now, but none of my other spells have changed to benefit the neutered Haste RT reduction for those that don't heavily train in Air Lore.

I think that's a fair assessment. What changes would you proposal to make Stone Skin better, specifically for Elemental Lore, Earth trained wizards (to lessen the overall impact for all wizards and to offer a competitive defense alternative to EL:A's Haste)?

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1298
Author: ZENDADA
Date: on 01/21/2016 09:21 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


Thanks for listening to the feedback and adding an update to the update to how Earth Lore works with 520. I like how this gives the Earth Mage reactive flares like some armor has without having to have reactive flare armor! And of all flares the impact table is pretty sweet.

Chad, player of a few

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1299
Author: BHTM
Date: on 01/21/2016 09:22 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


Flare to increase the CvA?

Flare to decrease the df on incoming attacks?

Hisskra like ability to harden and cause a disarm of the creature attacking you?

-Richard/Fjalar.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1300
Author: EARTHDIVER
Date: on 01/21/2016 09:31 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


Flare to toss you into a different room! I.e., your stone skin hardens immediately before the attack and you are kicked like a rock into the other room (hey, at least you might be safe there?)

I'm fully open to responses on why this might be a terrible idea.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1301
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 01/21/2016 09:40 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


True Stone Skin flares, as in the attacker's skin turns to stone for X rounds, immobilizing them and giving crush based attacks during this period (i.e. 510) a chance to shatter the target into pieces, killing them instantly.

A mechanic like that would be better suited for an overall spell review, since other similar mechanics should exist with spells like 512 and a whole plethora of other synergy based things that wizard spells should be designed a round, but I don't even know if a spell review is on the table still.

Is a spell review still on the table? I'm pretty sure I saw a NIR mention it during HSN, but I don't remember who or exactly what was said, so it might have been nothing for all I remember.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1302
Author: PC1234
Date: on 01/21/2016 09:41 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


I think that's a fair assessment. What changes would you proposal to make Stone Skin better, specifically for Elemental Lore, Earth trained wizards (to lessen the overall impact for all wizards and to offer a competitive defense alternative to EL:A's Haste)?
GameMaster Estild

When cast, spell 520 provides critical padding equal to EL:E ranks on seed 6.

Fine Print: Stacks with armor padding. Always on, this is not a % chance.

Haste allows you to recover quickly to attempt to avoid damage, this would allow you to attempt to ride out the wave and potentially survive.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1303
Author: TANDL
Date: on 01/21/2016 09:55 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


If it is meant to compete with haste I'd like to see it be some sort of flat bonus, instead of an proc. The always on aspect of haste is part of what makes it so beneficial and earth lore already has quite a few proc based defensive benefits.

Pardon if some of the following are repeats of other peoples: DF reduction on incoming attacks CMAN resistance (scaling phantom end roll reduction) Resistance to some maneuvers. Stun resistance.

Tal.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1304
Author: DOUG
Date: on 01/21/2016 09:55 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


>>provides critical padding equal to EL:E ranks on seed 6.

I have to admit, that would certainly drive up the instance of EL:E wizard lore training. The logic for selecting seed 6?

I was hoping we'd see something that might bring benefits of different types to different lores (not just earth).

Like, the Air attuned wizard, with EL:A at some seed, and the ability to avoid creature maneuvers.

Or, the Fire attuned wizard, with EL:F at some seed, and the ability to reduce crits (perhaps this suggestion).

Or the Earth attuned wizard, with EL:F at some seed, and the ability to reduce damage (significantly).

Or swap the last two - not trying to force a certain opinion here, just trying to broaden the perspective a bit. Definitely spell review level material, though.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1305
Author: CANDIDE
Date: on 01/21/2016 09:56 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


My take is let the calculation from damage taken account for better Armor (if not already wearing said better armor) Each hit would lower the AsG by 4 until its gone. This would not add to CvA.

0- Earth lore AsG 8 60- Earth lore AsG 12 140- Earth lore AsG 16 240- Earth lore AsG 20

Maybe some sub groups in that Lore mix.

GBB

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1306
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/21/2016 09:58 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


Thank you for trying to make adjustments. Is a full spell review still going to occur?

If that's the case, I wonder what on earth was the huge rush to roll out all the nerfs. Isn't that just creating double work for Dev since you'll have to re-invent the wheel AGAIN after?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1307
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/21/2016 10:00 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


I still don't know why it's still possible to other cast at all, given that comparable level 15 spells aren't (215, 115). Please make it self-cast and balance from there (no cooldown by 2x EMC).

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1308
Author: PC1234
Date: on 01/21/2016 10:22 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


>>provides critical padding equal to EL:E ranks on seed 6.
I have to admit, that would certainly drive up the instance of EL:E wizard lore training. The logic for selecting seed 6?

Seed 6 puts you at HCP (10 points) at just over 1x (105 ranks). That's what I consider a fair trade off. You would also be sacrificing options by making this choice.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1309
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/21/2016 10:24 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


I also have to agree a flare is not the answer if this is truly meant to be a viable alternative to training more for 535 benefits. 535 is always on, and if you have to rely on a flare, well Murphy's Law says that whenever you really need it, it won't happen.

It would need to be an always on benefit. Knocking the wizard into another room is also not the answer, as I hate mechanics like that. Sigil of Escape, Ithzir armor flares, and similar mechanics are all last resorts but I dislike those because you should be attempting to disable the room and kill as quickly as possible as a pure, not trying to run away. That says nothing about both your offensive and defensive capabilities.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1310
Author: EARTHDIVER
Date: on 01/21/2016 10:33 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


Heavily crit padded brigandine saved me many times in OTF and the Rift, but I don't think padding on the lower armor classes, especially heavily crit padded full leather, is going to provide you much chance at all of surviving a stunned-on-the-ground-in-offensive scenario. Being knocked out of the room can, so it's why I suggested it. :D

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1311
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/21/2016 10:36 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


>Heavily crit padded brigandine saved me many times in OTF and the Rift, but I don't think padding on the lower armor classes, especially heavily crit padded full leather, is going to provide you much chance at all of surviving a stunned-on-the-ground-in-offensive scenario. Being knocked out of the room can, so it's why I suggested it. :D

I agree padding on full leather is unlikely to make a material difference, but being knocked out of the room has several other drawbacks, such as the possibility of landing in a room even more dangerous than the original situation or being in a situation where you were disarmed in the first room and losing something of value altogether. It's risky on many levels and doesn't address the real issues. It's another band-aid, not a solution.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1312
Author: ROLFARD
Date: on 01/21/2016 10:36 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


My non wizard is terrified at too many boosts as hunting grimswarm becomes more and more dangerous.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1313
Author: DOUG
Date: on 01/21/2016 10:37 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


>>HCP (10 points) at just over 1x (105 ranks).

Yep, thanks. I noticed that intersection and was curious.

I'm not sure it would be a well received idea to permanently grant HCP to the wizard. This isn't quite the same as GoS (with its restrictions), and unfortunately the way the game is designed this would ultimately be equivalent to a permanent 'item' that no other profession can match - and is generally considered a 'restricted' or 'rare' item.

How would we feel about seed 8 and capping it at the equivalent of 'somewhat [5 - 6 points of padding]'? And perhaps making it a bit less of duration. Not 1 minute (gads I hate that), but fails after protecting from X number of strikes, or some such, to be similar to stamina consumption with GoS.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1315
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/21/2016 10:40 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>My non wizard is terrified at too many boosts as hunting grimswarm becomes more and more dangerous.

This is why lore-based flares of any kind are really not the solution for anyone, be it sorcerers for 716 or wizards for 520. It's MUCH more likely to backfire on you as a hunter than actually save you. When you need it, it won't work for you, but you can guarantee yourself some nasty injuries, if not death, from attacking a sorcerer or mage grimswarm.

This is why the ELR (and parts of HSN) seemed nice in theory but were actually a bunch of secret creature buffs. It was a wash because while the player characters now have a chance of some flares from time to time, many things they hunt are now significantly more dangerous, which ends up a net benefit for the creatures.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1316
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 01/21/2016 10:41 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


What makes the most sense for me is for Stone Skin to flat out take the damage for you until it shatters. It doesn't take a percentage, it takes all the damage it can until it breaks and you start getting hit. The more Earth lore you have, the more damage the Stone Skin will soak up before breaking.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1317
Author: DOUG
Date: on 01/21/2016 10:42 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


>>you should be attempting to disable the room and kill as quickly as possible as a pure

. . .

Agree with all the points but this one. There's an upper bound to this (2, 3 creatures maybe)? that isn't expressed. I didn't recently and still don't support scenarios where a wizard 5 against 1 should expect to 'prevail' with anything other than extreme luck.

And in those cases, I believe the wizard (especially solo) should be running away - so if luck happens in reverse, that 'retreat tactic' item should be all the more welcome. But - flare is not the answer, absolutely not.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1318
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/21/2016 10:42 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


>How would we feel about seed 8 and capping it at the equivalent of 'somewhat [5 - 6 points of padding]'? And perhaps making it a bit less of duration. Not 1 minute (gads I hate that), but fails after protecting from X number of strikes, or some such, to be similar to stamina consumption with GoS.

The problem with any padding as a solution is that unless it stacks with existing armor, it's a nerf from what we have now, at the post-cap level, which is where things really get dangerous in swarms. Nor is it likely to address the issues involved with post-cap, maneuvered based dangers.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1319
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 01/21/2016 10:45 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


Mostly off topic question, but has anyone tried messing around with Iron Skin scrolls? I'm curious what would be possible with that, assuming it bases it off your AS ranks and not Mental Lore: Transformation like with monks.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1320
Author: DRUMPEL
Date: on 01/21/2016 10:47 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


>I think that's a fair assessment. What changes would you proposal to make Stone Skin better, specifically for Elemental Lore, Earth trained wizards (to lessen the overall impact for all wizards and to offer a competitive defense alternative to EL:A's Haste)? >GameMaster Estild

For someone that doesn't wish to dump ranks into Air Lore, I think a fair trade off would be an AsG bump for heavy earth lore and MjE skill when using Stone Skin.

Let's say you have two wizards, both are the same level 85 and both have spent TPs for 125 ranks in Lores. Both have 60 MjE spell ranks.

  • Wizard 1 plays as an Air Mage and they've dumped 125 ranks into Air.
  • Wizard 2 plays as an Earth mage and they've dumped 125 ranks into Earth Lore.

Both wizards are out hunting and they get hit with a maneuver, it knocks them down for a 10 second RT (before haste). Wizard 1's RT is reduced to 4 seconds - he's back up before the creature has time to get off their next attack and Wizard 1 can attack/attempt a disable type spell. Wizard 2's RT is reduced to 6 seconds - he's still prone while the creature unleashes hell upon him.

Another scenario: Wizards take a 12 second RT (before haste) from ewave, both just happened to get caught stance dancing are knocked down in offensive. Wizard 1's RT is reduced to 5 seconds. Wizard has a good chance to stance defensive or get a disabling spell off before the creature attacks again. With a bit of luck on Wizard 1's side, he survived to keep hunting. Wizard 2's RT is reduced to 8 seconds. Wizard is stuck in offensive to get the crap kicked out of him unless he just happens to luckily evade/block the attack by some amazing chance. Most likely, Wizard 2 just died.

If someone wishes to be fast in hopes to avoid attacks (best method of staying alive), all the better for them. For someone that isn't heavily trained in Air Lore, Stone skin should improve your AsG.

I know I posted a suggestion for 520 (at least I thought I did) some time back, but I can't find it. I don't recall the exact suggestion and numbers I used so I'm going to re-create something similar.

My suggestion was with MjE and EL:E ranks, an increased AsG would be applied to help with protection. The improved AsG would not hinder casting.

MjE ranks + EL:E (minimum of 25 ranks required for AsG benefit to be able to activate) gives increased AsG. If the spell does provide increased AsG for the caster, any armor underneath is not utilized if the AsG provided is greater than what you're wearing. For Example: if you have a wizard wearing HCP double leathers, the leathers and HCP would be ignored if they used 520 and were granted improved AsG over what they are currently wearing - otherwise you're having Wizards running around gaining HCP for an AsG they don't currently wear.

50 ranks Reinforced leather AsG 7
75 ranks Double leather AsG 8
100 ranks leather breastplate AsG 9
150 ranks Cuirbouilli leather AsG 10
200 ranks Studded leather AsG 11
250 ranks Brigandine AsG 12
300 ranks Chain mail AsG 13

If Stone skin offered some better armor protection, Wizard 2 has a better fighting chance to live through the fights since his Haste is lacking in power over a well trained air mage. The above example shows Wizard 2 has 60 MjE spell ranks and 125 EL:E ranks - 185 ranks total. He'd be sporting AsG 10 coverage along with the normal function of stone skin and how it absorbs some of the damage.

Wizard 2 goes from being a wet noodle in full leather or robes to having some kind of added protection for all his hard work in Earth Lores. Will he survive more from being prone? Sure, but it's not always a guarantee. There just needs to be some kind of offset for those that are not training in Air Lore to keep haste like it was under the old spell.

Right now my wizard has lost his ability to quickly recover and some much improved armor protection that doesn't hinder his casting ability would be greatly appreciated. I don't see stone skin as offering crit padding, but improved AsG would be awesome.

Thanks for listening.

-Drumpel

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1321
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/21/2016 10:54 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


The AsG suggestion has merit, but I'm still not sure it would be enough to make a material difference. Those thresholds are also too high, and what happens if you don't have quite enough lore for even the first bump up?

As it stands now, splitting 4 ways for lores makes every post-cap wizard mediocre on some level, instead of better in one. To be decent at anything, you have to make significant sacrifices in many other areas (defensive, utility, or offensive), which isn't a choice spiritualists have.

With the SLR, nearly all of the changes were bonuses from the base level of functionality, so even if one could not train much in one area, they were still okay. If they trained more in one particular, they became exceptionally good at those spells.

This isn't the case with the ELR. You have to train a lot, in nearly every lore, to be even decent. This leads to an all around character that is mediocre on every front, instead of being a true specialist in one. Unless wizards can 3x lores with the seed setup that exists now, the post-cap wizard will still have many issues.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1322
Author: DRUMPEL
Date: on 01/21/2016 10:55 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


>And in those cases, I believe the wizard (especially solo) should be running away - so if luck happens in reverse, that 'retreat tactic' item should be all the more welcome. But - flare is not the answer, absolutely not. >Doug

I agree. If I happen to encounter a minotuar warrior and a magus - usually not an issue. Ewave tends to knock them down on a constant basis. But if you add a second Magus to the mix and ewave doesn't pin them all...I'm running out of there and fast. I don't need to wait on them to prep spells in hopes that my second attempt to ewave or call wind will put them down.

I run and I do my best to avoid them for about 30 seconds (especially if one prepped a spell). Over 2 creatures in the room and it starts to become a problem trying to juggle them all safely. Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't. I'd rather much run and live, instead of taking my chance I might win.

-Drumpel

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1323
Author: PC1234
Date: on 01/21/2016 11:00 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


>>HCP (10 points) at just over 1x (105 ranks).
Yep, thanks. I noticed that intersection and was curious.
I'm not sure it would be a well received idea to permanently grant HCP to the wizard. This isn't quite the same as GoS (with its restrictions), and unfortunately the way the game is designed this would ultimately be equivalent to a permanent 'item' that no other profession can match - and is generally considered a 'restricted' or 'rare' item.
Doug

Oh, I don't think they'll ever do it. But he asked for a better replacement and I gave him one.

How would we feel about seed 8 and capping it at the equivalent of 'somewhat [5 - 6 points of padding]'? And perhaps making it a bit less of duration. Not 1 minute (gads I hate that), but fails after protecting from X number of strikes, or some such, to be similar to stamina consumption with GoS.

I would take this over the current 520. Keep the duration though! The last thing I need is another spell to juggle while hunting.

How do you feel about flip-flopping your suggestion?

Cast 520 and receive somewhat critical padding. The amount of hits that it's good for is EL:E seed 8 + a base # of hits. (5-10)

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1324
Author: DOUG
Date: on 01/21/2016 11:11 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


>> that unless it stacks with existing armor

Agree, didn't purposefully exclude. 5 or 6 points that stacks. Still, that's going to be a very tough case to make with the GMs.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1325
Author: DOUG
Date: on 01/21/2016 11:19 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


>>How do you feel about flip-flopping your suggestion?

Absolutely game! No pride of authorship there, the key point in my view was to figure out how to live to the tenets we see demonstrated before us in spell design, including the concept of 'limit and refresh'. The how of this isn't really important to me during the initial brainstorming.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1326
Author: DOUG
Date: on 01/21/2016 11:22 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


>>Mostly off topic question, but has anyone tried messing around with Iron Skin scrolls? I'm curious what would be possible with that, assuming it bases it off your AS ranks and not Mental Lore: Transformation like with monks.

Bah, looks like I ditched my response, but yes I do, and AS ranks extends duration, ML:T is still required for the various armor sub-groups. Still, it's an absolute blast for those of us with really, really good robes. ;)

Better for empaths, though.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1327
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 01/21/2016 11:23 AM PST
Subject: Ice Patch/Minor Water/Minor Cold questions


I have a feeling this combo benefit is not taken advantage much at all, and I wanted to get the full details since it seems really nice.

When the target is rooted by Ice Patch (512) and Minor Water (903) is cast to act like Minor Cold (1709), does it still only cost 3 mana? and do full lore benefits/channeling apply?

Does anyone use this and have a few samples to share?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1328
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 01/21/2016 11:25 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


I like the ASG and crit padding suggestions.

Although building the ASG table up to 300 ranks is confusing, that's impossible to reach even with enhancives right?

So maybe something more like:

50 ranks Reinforced leather AsG 7
75 ranks Double leather AsG 8
100 ranks leather breastplate AsG 9
133 ranks Cuirbouilli leather AsG 10
166 ranks Studded leather AsG 11
200 ranks Brigandine AsG 12
233 ranks Chain mail AsG 13


I also like PC1234's suggestion: >When cast, spell 520 provides critical padding equal to EL:E ranks on seed 6.

This would be less powerful than that ASG table but still much improved. It also wouldn't create a situation where critters are getting MUCH better results than players, unlike defensive flares.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1329
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/21/2016 11:30 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


You do realize you can only 2x lores, right? If you need more than 1/4 of that for any benefit, you're seriously crippling yourself in all other offensive and utility areas.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1330
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 01/21/2016 11:41 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


By the same token, those who specialize should be rewarded because there is a heavy opportunity cost.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1331
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/21/2016 11:44 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


>By the same token, those who specialize should be rewarded because there is a heavy opportunity cost.

We're not talking about being rewarded here, though. We're talking about where the spell doesn't work at all as proposed without at least 50 ranks of earth lore.

Even 535 offers basic functionality based on MjE ranks with no air lore, even if it doesn't work very well.

Here, you're proposing nothing or mediocrity, so it's a poor choice no matter what you do. We should aspire to more than that, given that's not at all how spiritual lores and the other pures are designed to work.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1332
Author: DRUMPEL
Date: on 01/21/2016 11:46 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


>The AsG suggestion has merit, but I'm still not sure it would be enough to make a material difference. Those thresholds are also too high, and what happens if you don't have quite enough lore for even the first bump up?

My suggestion for a 520 change would be to keep the damage absorption as it currently is. It's a form of damage padding and I don't think they'll ever change the spell to provide crit padding on any level or for any amount of hits.

Having 520 improve your AsG would be nice. We can't expect them to give wizards the ability to easily toss up Stoneskin and have scale or plate armor protection - it would be too much.

My thoughts behind requiring at least 25 ranks in EL:E would be so any wizard that wants somewhat better armor protection and can dump a lot of ranks into MjE and still get some kind improved benefit from the AsG bonus - since most wizards wear full leather, some do wear double and even fewer wear leather breastplate. So an experienced wizard would easily be able to hit 25 EL:E ranks and 75-100 (even more, depending on spell training) ranks to have Stoneskin offer AsG 9, 10 or even 11. Hard leather coverage is better over soft leather. If you opt to not train in Earth Lore, you'd still get the basic function of damage absorption that stoneskin currently offers.

Maybe have AsG increases like so:

50 ranks Reinforced leather AsG 7
75 ranks Double leather AsG 8
100 ranks leather breastplate AsG 9
125 ranks Cuirbouilli leather AsG 10
150 ranks Studded leather AsG 11
175 ranks Brigandine AsG 12
225 ranks Chain mail AsG 13
275 ranks Double chain AsG 14
325 ranks Augmented chain AsG 15
400 ranks Chain hauberk AsG 16

Theoretically you can achieve 252 ranks EL:E (202 with training and 50 with Enhancives). You can clearly over train the crap out of MjE spells - after cap, putting upwards of 150 ranks in MjE would be doable if you're willing to sacrifice spell ranks in MnE and Wiz spells. You could hit the 400 combined ranks required for AsG 16, clearly it would be a post cap goal, but it would be doable.

The great end results should be there for those that put forth the great effort.

If the above chart was true for the spell, my wizard has 65 MjE spells and 126 EL:E = 191 combined ranks. He'd get Brig coverage while stoneskin was active. That's a whole heck of a lot better than full leather he currently wears.

-Drumpel

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1333
Author: CAPTAINREDBEARD
Date: on 01/21/2016 11:52 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


There are lots of ideas that players could offer. What needs to happen is a careful review by a team of GM's and possibly some players and make some decisions on how the wizard class is going to mesh with elemental lore's.

I, and other players I assume, thought this is what the Elemental Lore Review was all about since 2008.

Its clear now there is no master vision for wizards, and we owe it to the legacy of this game to take the time to come up with one before we gut the soul out of a class.


Rollback the changes until there is a plan.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1334
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/21/2016 11:53 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


>Theoretically you can achieve 252 ranks EL:E (202 with training and 50 with Enhancives). You can clearly over train the crap out of MjE spells - after cap, putting upwards of 150 ranks in MjE would be doable if you're willing to sacrifice spell ranks in MnE and Wiz spells. You could hit the 400 combined ranks required for AsG 16, clearly it would be a post cap goal, but it would be doable.

Oh, okay, if your proposal includes MjE ranks, that makes a lot more sense. I can get on board with that, though I'm still not it will achieve the effect you're going after. It's a start.

The damage reduction for the base 520 would need to be a flat damage absorbed, not a % on a chance of absorption. Currently, the spell does next to nothing to mitigate the impact of attacks that hit.

By ignoring fire, air, and water altogether though, a pure earth lore wizard would suffer tremendously on an offensive level though. Basically only a pure war mage could do this, and even then, you'd be paying a much higher price in Celerity benefits lost (for the stamina reduction).

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1335
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 01/21/2016 12:01 PM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


>We're not talking about being rewarded here, though. We're talking about where the spell doesn't work at all as proposed without at least 50 ranks of earth lore.

I was just talking about the lore portion of 520, not making any changes to the damage-absorption part that is currently the base spell. Although I would be certainly willing to see that change as well, that wasn't what I was suggesting.


Ahh, sorry Drumpel, I missed the part where you mentioned the 500's being counted as "ranks" as well. That makes more sense.

I would be surprised to see someone with more than 140 ranks in 500s since 930 and 430 exist, but I suppose it's at least possible. You'd also be leaving a lot of AS and DS on the table by not going up to 475, but I suppose that's partly the point.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1336
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 01/21/2016 12:23 PM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


>There are lots of ideas that players could offer. What needs to happen is a careful review by a team of GM's and possibly some players and make some decisions on how the wizard class is going to mesh with elemental lore's.

>I, and other players I assume, thought this is what the Elemental Lore Review was all about since 2008.

This x1000000000000000. I still don't think anyone on staff has a clue to the amount of disappointment most wizards felt after years of build up and waiting, to the "it's finally here" moment of excitement when we were told ELR was coming to last year's HSN, seeing new daily NEWS items, typing in NEWS X YY or running to the forums as fast as we can, and then getting...high seed situational slot machines that don't actually accomplish anything of any reliable use, one after another after another. We come back the next day thinking "Maybe the good stuff just isn't here yet." and seeing more of the same.

"Well ok the ELR sucked and didn't give us anything we needed, but at least we're still good at killing stuff with what we already have, and the big 3 nerfs were put on hold until a spell review, it'll be ok." a lot of us thought at the end of HSN.

Then these nerfs hit and we're basically told to be grateful. Now we're pretty much the 2016 equivalent of GP2 sorcerers on the nerf scale, and so far our only reliable build now is war mage, the mutant build, while pure wizards everywhere abandon everything being a wizard is about in favor of swinging a big sword really fast because so far the only thing done to address the bolting issues wizards have dealt with forever requires putting our defense at a tremendous risk for "a chance" at hitting a vital area.

But hey, at least we're still good at being bots.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1337
Author: DRUMPEL
Date: on 01/21/2016 12:28 PM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


I don't think they're going to change Haste any further, aside from maybe minor adjustments that won't make a big impact to most people that still have little to no Air Lore skill.

For those that don't train in Air Lore - we need a way to help better defend ourselves from the reduced RT we now suffer from. Aside from a complete spell re-write on 520, I don't see it doing anything terribly exciting, but it can certainly be much improved upon.

If a complete re-write was in order, it would be a whole new monster and the ideas I can think of would probably give me enough to write about for a few hours straight.

For right now, how it currently works. Adding crit padding - won't happen (this is based off of how NIR people tend to work from past experiences). They may be willing to adjust the spell enough to have it function kind of like Sonic Armor does - the more skill you have, the better the armor protection you get.

You don't get a boost in DS, just over all armor protection. Any DS boost would come from the normal armor you would wear - so if you had 7x robes, you'd still get the +35 DS - stoneskin would just act as a shield, for lack of a better word, to increase the AsG. Basically, you'd go from wearing 7x robes to maybe 7x Brig or 7x leather breastplate, all depending on your skill level.

I really see this as being one of the only options to help offset the loss of RT reduction from the Haste spell re-write without 520 being completely re-written. Those with high/heavy Air Lore have very little to no change to Haste. Those without Air Lore - we miss out on a lot of RT reduction that used to rely on to help us survive.

I don't see this as game breaking, we'd still be fairly squishy, but with slightly better armor. Only post cap would see the greatest benefits from the spell - hitting the scale armor levels.

-Drumpel

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1338
Author: PC1234
Date: on 01/21/2016 12:49 PM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


I'm not against the AsG change depending on the lore training required. I tried playing with the numbers and I didn't like the results I saw. It would require too much training for far too little benefit. Although that seems to be the trend looking at the ELR.

Double leather at 50 ranks? Not worth it. It would be better to just train armor use up for double leather.

I used an 18 per EL:E for each 1 AsG change. Capped at augmented chain, and it would take 72 ranks for double leather. 90 ranks for leather breastplate. The cost is not worth the protection. I used a 5+10+15+20+25, etc progression. Double leather at 50 ranks, Cuirbouilli at 105 ranks. Again, not worth it, at least in my opinion.


I really like the base somewhat crit padding just from casting. Give 5 base hits/uses. Add 1 hit/use per seed 8 EL:E. It's a nice boost, but it's not overpowered. It's unique, in that no other spell provides this type of protection. Bards can resist elemental damage. Rangers can negate up to 95% of certain types of elemental damage. SWCP is not that great, but it's certainly better than reactive flares.

It would give warmages a nice defensive boost, it would certainly add a much needed reason to train in EL:E. It would also help to offset the unbalance of wizards being forced into offensive stance to bolt, unlike every other pure who can safely cast from guarded stance. With this type of spell, we may actually be able to channel in offensive stance from time to time, because we might be able to take a hit for once.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1339
Author: TANDL
Date: on 01/21/2016 12:56 PM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


Large chunks of the ELR were taken straight from what Naos had suggested all those years ago.

https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elemental_lore_review_archive_(saved_posts)

This isn't the first time I've re-posted this link, but I'm still unsure what all was expected (other than what we were told to expect in 2009).

Taluric

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1340
Author: PC1234
Date: on 01/21/2016 01:02 PM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


Large chunks of the ELR were taken straight from what Naos had suggested all those years ago.
https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elemental_lore_review_archive_(saved_posts)
This isn't the first time I've re-posted this link, but I'm still unsure what all was expected (other than what we were told to expect in 2009).
Taluric

Why was it never completed until now? I always thought it was cancelled because the feedback about it was highly negative. And still is.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1341
Author: TANDL
Date: on 01/21/2016 01:15 PM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


IIRC it just became one of those fixtures of the 'to-do' list that there wasn't enough time to get done. Nothing more or less.

Tal.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1342
Author: DOUG
Date: on 01/21/2016 01:23 PM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


Yep, I think Tal nailed it.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1343
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 01/21/2016 01:29 PM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


Taluric
Large chunks of the ELR were taken straight from what Naos had suggested all those years ago.
https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elemental_lore_review_archive_(saved_posts)
This isn't the first time I've re-posted this link, but I'm still unsure what all was expected (other than what we were told to expect in 2009).

Indeed.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1344
Author: DRUMPEL
Date: on 01/21/2016 01:35 PM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


I'm not against the AsG change depending on the lore training required. I tried playing with the numbers and I didn't like the results I saw. It would require too much training for far too little benefit. Although that seems to be the trend looking at the ELR.
Double leather at 50 ranks? Not worth it. It would be better to just train armor use up for double leather.

Sure, you could drop 15 ranks of armor use to train down double leather's hindrance to it's lowest level of 4/4/2 (MjE/Wiz/MnE) or you could drop 25 (min requirement) ranks in EL:E and 50 MjE spell ranks as you progress through levels to have double leather coverage from Stoneskin without spell hindrance.

Benefits from such an adjustment would come at a cost. You want better protection from it, spend the points.


I really like the base somewhat crit padding just from casting. Give 5 base hits/uses. Add 1 hit/use per seed 8 EL:E. It's a nice boost, but it's not overpowered. It's unique, in that no other spell provides this type of protection. Bards can resist elemental damage. Rangers can negate up to 95% of certain types of elemental damage. SWCP is not that great, but it's certainly better than reactive flares.
It would give warmages a nice defensive boost, it would certainly add a much needed reason to train in EL:E. It would also help to offset the unbalance of wizards being forced into offensive stance to bolt, unlike every other pure who can safely cast from guarded stance. With this type of spell, we may actually be able to channel in offensive stance from time to time, because we might be able to take a hit for once.

I've always been told that having the next level up in armor is better then having crit padding in a lower armor - for example: brig is better over HCP Double (does this still hold true?). I'd much rather have a better armor base over getting crit padding for a few strikes. How good is SWCP full leather if you have stoneskin that acts as leather breastplate? (serious questions here, I don't own any crit padded items, so I don't keep up with how they function that well.)

-Drumpel

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1345
Author: PC1234
Date: on 01/21/2016 02:00 PM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


I've always been told that having the next level up in armor is better then having crit padding in a lower armor - for example: brig is better over HCP Double (does this still hold true?). I'd much rather have a better armor base over getting crit padding for a few strikes. How good is SWCP full leather if you have stoneskin that acts as leather breastplate? (serious questions here, I don't own any crit padded items, so I don't keep up with how they function that well.)

I believe the crit padding is going to provide better protection against the attacks we're weakest against.

Also, as a warmage you're going to train armor up to double leather at least, with many training to leather breastplate. The AsG change would help casters only in that situation (unless it progressed on a +1 AsG per Seed whatever), while the crit padding would help everyone.

However, there is also spell 1202. It already does this. They don't like to duplicate spells, unless it's giving wizard bolts to other pures (705/306). So I don't see it happening. I don't see either happening really but since we're in fantasy land talking about what we want, I'd rather have crit padding.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1346
Author: SHAYD11
Date: on 01/21/2016 02:12 PM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


>However, there is also spell 1202. It already does this. They don't like to duplicate spells, unless it's giving wizard bolts to other pures (705/306). So I don't see it happening. I don't see either happening really but since we're in fantasy land talking about what we want, I'd rather have crit padding.

This, iron skin is for a square class. Do you honestly think the GMs are going to give you the same benefits? Might as well ask for redux and elemental berserk too.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1347
Author: DEANSMITH
Date: on 01/21/2016 02:28 PM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


I think that's a fair assessment. What changes would you proposal to make Stone Skin better, specifically for Elemental Lore, Earth trained wizards (to lessen the overall impact for all wizards and to offer a competitive defense alternative to EL:A's Haste)?

How about using EVOKE to lower spell hinderance when wearing heavier armor?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1348
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/21/2016 03:04 PM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


>Why was it never completed until now? I always thought it was cancelled because the feedback about it was highly negative. And still is.

This exactly. There was a lot wrong with it then and still is, and most people hoped it had been scrapped entirely. That all the glaring issues still exist does nothing to help matters.

It's like imposing a different way of playing on the profession because you can, except without the tools to do the job as successfully as any of the other pure classes.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1349
Author: MEKK1
Date: on 01/21/2016 07:32 PM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


>>This, iron skin is for a square class. Do you honestly think the GMs are going to give you the same benefits? Might as well ask for redux and elemental berserk too.>>

You mean semi but whatever. Wizards are the only pure class that goes into offensive, if only for a second. Similar benefits would be closer to the truth, but yes. Elemental redux for pures should be a thing. Squares for physical and pures get magic reduction!

Drauz

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1350
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 01/21/2016 08:04 PM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


Monks are considered squares.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1351
Author: MEKK1
Date: on 01/21/2016 08:10 PM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


>>Monks are considered squares.>>

Never would have thought that considering their spell training cost compared to other squares, but the wiki confirms.

Drauz

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1352
Author: DVDMORSE
Date: on 01/21/2016 11:32 PM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


>Wizards are the only pure class that goes into offensive, if only for a second.

Not true. 306, 111, 1110, and 713 all require going into offensive. And my pures use every one of them regularly.

--David

"At a moment like this, I can't help but wonder, 'What would Jimmy Buffett do?'"

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1353
Author: MEKK1
Date: on 01/21/2016 11:49 PM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


>>Not true. 306, 111, 1110, and 713 all require going into offensive. And my pures use every one of them regularly.>>

Are any of these the classes main offensive spells? You list the two bolt spell that the other pure classes have knowing full well thats not what they use to hunt with.

I guess I should have clarified but I thought people would get what I meant. Wizards are the only pure class whos main attack method requires them to go into offensive stance. Better?

Drauz

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1354
Author: ROLFARD
Date: on 01/22/2016 05:41 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


I use bolts more than any other attack as a sorcerer because I'm gathering ensorcell energy often in a group hunt or a warcamp. I have a demon to upkeep (send mana to) for balefire too.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1355
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 01/22/2016 06:48 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


>> I use bolts more than any other attack as a sorcerer because I'm gathering ensorcell energy often in a group hunt or a warcamp. I have a demon to upkeep (send mana to) for balefire too.

It sounds like you are saying that when you group hunt, you use bolts because they are less effective at killing things.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul." Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1356
Author: THORNBROOK
Date: on 01/22/2016 06:56 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


>>It sounds like you are saying that when you group hunt, you use bolts because they are less effective at killing things. 

It's all about the splash damage and "tagging".



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1357
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 01/22/2016 07:05 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


>It sounds like you are saying that when you group hunt, you use bolts because they are less effective at killing things.

That's exactly what I do when group hunting.

If I don't want something to die, I use bolts.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1358
Author: CALAEL
Date: on 01/22/2016 10:17 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


Methais
That's exactly what I do when group hunting.
If I don't want something to die, I use bolts.

Just curious whether anyone has tried CHANNELing bolts? Do they seem more effective?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1359
Author: ROLFARD
Date: on 01/22/2016 10:35 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


On my wizard i previously used only bolts to hunt. Now on my wizard i exclusively use bolts to hunt. At cap. No change besides an extra second between casts. I make a lot of use with zero rt tremors and stack ewave on top. I have 24 air, 4 earth , 1, 1 in lores before and after.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1360
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 01/22/2016 11:14 AM PST
Subject: Re: Ice Patch/Minor Water/Minor Cold questions


VANKRASN39
I have a feeling this combo benefit is not taken advantage much at all, and I wanted to get the full details since it seems really nice.
When the target is rooted by Ice Patch (512) and Minor Water (903) is cast to act like Minor Cold (1709), does it still only cost 3 mana? and do full lore benefits/channeling apply?
Does anyone use this and have a few samples to share?

Yes, when Minor Water (903) is converted to Minor Cold (1709), it still only cost 3 mana. It acts as if you had simply casts 1709, meaning the same lore benefits and other casting benefits (such as channeling) still apply.

>incant 512 You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Ice Patch... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a triton radical. An airy mist quickly gathers around a triton radical. The dull golden nimbus surrounding a triton radical suddenly begins to glow brightly. 

 CS: +522 - TD: +430 + CvA: +25 + d100: +42 == +159
 Warding failed!

The mist leaves the entire lower half of a triton radical's body encased in a thick block of ice. 

  ... 25 points of damage!
  The triton radical staggers as your icy attack shatters its right leg.
  It is knocked to the ground!

Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

>incant 903 Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Water... Your spell is ready. You channel at a triton radical. You hurl a stream of water at a triton radical, but it freezes just before impact. Carefully, you summon the chunk of ice back to your hand... You hurl a chunk of ice at a triton radical! 

 AS: +415 vs DS: +254 with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +95 = +285
  ... and hit for 140 points of damage!
  Blow to chest frees a rib to spear a lung and heart!

Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. Roundtime: 3 sec.

>incant 903 Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Water... Your spell is ready. You channel at a triton radical. You hurl a stream of water at a triton radical, but it freezes just before impact. Carefully, you summon the chunk of ice back to your hand... You hurl a chunk of ice at a triton radical! 

 AS: +422 vs DS: +242 with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +53 = +262
  ... and hit for 100 points of damage!
  Blow shatters bones in the triton radical's neck leaving its head hanging loosely!

The triton radical collapses, gurgling once with a wrathful look on its face before expiring. The dully illuminated mantle protecting a triton radical begins to falter, then completely fades away. A white glow rushes away from a triton radical. The dull golden nimbus fades from around a triton radical. The brilliant aura fades away from a triton radical. The very powerful look leaves a triton radical. The white light leaves a triton radical. The guiding force leaves a triton radical. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. Roundtime: 3 sec.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1361
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 01/22/2016 12:54 PM PST
Subject: Re: Ice Patch/Minor Water/Minor Cold questions


looks interesting, thanks :)

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1362
Author: CAPTAINREDBEARD
Date: on 01/22/2016 12:55 PM PST
Subject: Re: Ice Patch/Minor Water/Minor Cold questions


When I looked at using this spells, it is slightly better than Minor Fire damage wise, you will see the mana cost on par with minor fire at 46 ranks, but only in situations where you need 4 casts to kill something. I didn't use it because I figured I would be ahead mana wise at my level just using minor fire. In situations where you are trying to kill a tank, this would be a contender for the most mana efficient way once you start getting the seeds past 46 water lore.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1363
Author: ALSTHAR
Date: on 01/22/2016 03:17 PM PST
Subject: Re: Ice Patch/Minor Water/Minor Cold questions


Don't overlook the initial 512 crit.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1365
Author: DVDMORSE
Date: on 01/22/2016 08:30 PM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


>Are any of these the classes main offensive spells? You list the two bolt spell that the other pure classes have knowing full well thats not what they use to hunt with.

Actually, no. I will grant that my sorcerer does not use 713 a lot. I have a cleric who is set up to use bolts and another who definitely uses 306 most when he is hunting undead. And my empath uses 1110, 111, and 118 (I forgot that one before) as his main attacks on most anything.


--David

"At a moment like this, I can't help but wonder, 'What would Jimmy Buffett do?'"

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1366
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 01/22/2016 11:56 PM PST
Subject: We need fast migration


With as huge as these changes are and the effects of it disrupting most peoples' builds/playstyles tremendously, throwing one fixskills our way, while appreciated, doesn't give us enough breathing room to figure out what works well for both the character and the player.

Someone else can probably articulate it better than I, despite the obviousness of it.

I think at least a week or two of fast migration would go a long way.

Or just open the test server for a little bit, which would be the best solution by far.

Either way, one fixskills doesn't give us much wiggle room in the face of these massive changes that have us in a scramble.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1367
Author: RISHIB1
Date: on 01/23/2016 02:15 PM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


yeah, as an capped empath, I largely prefer 111 and 1110. I think there's only 2 creatures right now where I default to 1115 instead. (fetish masters and fallen crusaders)

Rishi - Player of Kembal


Speaking to Plur, Belnia says, "You're no Kembal."


[Roll result: -2112 (open d100: 82)] A giantman thief crouches and sweeps a leg at you, but only manages to trip himself.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1368
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 01/23/2016 07:11 PM PST
Subject: Re: We need fast migration


I'd like to hear the arguments AGAINST fast migration and/or the test server. It seems like an excellent way to allow wizards to come to terms with these changes.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1369
Author: FIREPHOENIX
Date: on 01/23/2016 08:22 PM PST
Subject: Re: We need fast migration


I endorse the request too. I think it would ease anxiety.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1370
Author: PCOFFEY77
Date: on 01/23/2016 08:34 PM PST
Subject: Re: We need fast migration


Put me in on this request because I had saved one from last May, used it the other day, and will have to try something else again after I use our current one. How about a 10 day instant fixskill/stat migration?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1371
Author: PCOFFEY77
Date: on 01/23/2016 09:08 PM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Skin (520) Update


I'm late to the party on this one as well but would like to express my opinion for one thing that came to mind immediately and someone expressed earier - Doug I believe.

Can we change this to be more based on the attunement/lore training rather than make us force all of these different lores? Why not call it Elemental Skin and go from there.

I really don't like that I'm basically being forced out of the Lore enjoyed training in when I started all of this. And it feels like we're being spread too thin. You only give us 202 ranks to mess with and make them costly to train in while trying to train in other stuff that makes us even viable to play the game with.

WoW gives you special armors depending on what you train in. Fire/Ice/Arcane - each with special buffs of their own. A base damage resitance with special stuff added depending on lore training.

Water = Ice armor that can slow a creature during a strike and at certain trainings

Fire = Fire armor that burns back causing flare damage

Air = Lightning damage that Amplifies the next cast or stikes back with bolts of energy

Earth = Earth Armor that "hardens" after a succesful strike by an opponent to help ward the next attack based on Earth Lore.

Come on, please give us a break with these lores.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1372
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 01/24/2016 11:05 AM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


I had an opportunity to use the current incarnation of immolation (disabler version) yesterday and this morning and it seems to be working reasonably well with the current implementation. The mana cost reduction down to 15 is an added bonus.

Thanks for listening and making adjustments!

-- Robert aka Faulkil

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul." Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1373
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 01/24/2016 11:38 AM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Doug,

I've lost track of the thread where I said I would give 912-Call Wind a try in place of 519-Immolation (disabler) vs. the temple sentries. 912 is effective in knocking them over and making my bolts more effective but the sentries still like to cast their spells, even when laying down. As a result, I don't see this as an effective replacement for 519 (assuming you are able to effectively ward the sentries to begin with). However, I have started using 912 in place of 519 for the sirens since all I was really looking for with 519 was to make them easier bolt targets anyway.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul." Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1374
Author: CAPTAINREDBEARD
Date: on 01/24/2016 11:50 AM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


How many 900/500 spell ranks do you have?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1376
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 01/24/2016 12:12 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Spell Lists 

 Major Elemental....................|             100

Spell Lists 

 Minor Elemental....................|              75

Spell Lists 

 Wizard.............................|             101

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul." Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1377
Author: DOUG
Date: on 01/24/2016 12:25 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>>sentries still like to cast their spells

Oh, yeah. Only too true, Robert. One interesting thing about sentries, though, is that they rarely (if ever?) spawn with spells prepped as I recall. This isn't true in the Scatter, for example. So I would use call wind only when a sentry genned in the same room as the Elf. If they wandered in, you just never know, and different tactics would apply. Hopefully, this didn't change overly much - the ability to be selective in tactics is something I always enjoy about the lands. It used to be 7, but now it's only 3 mana difference, so not quite as relevant as in the past, perhaps. . .

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1378
Author: KEITHOBAD
Date: on 01/24/2016 01:27 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


What kind of effectiveness are you getting with 912?

I tried switching from 410 to 912 in Stone trolls/giants and it ended up with me getting messed up a few times. My 410 works about 85% of the time (I'm uphunting the giants a bit) but 912 is closer to 70%. That's with 30 ranks in 900's and 55 ranks of air lore.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1379
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 01/24/2016 01:30 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


It seems like > 90% but let me pull the log for all the times I've cast it in the past 2 days and see how many times I got a knockdown.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul." Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1380
Author: ROLFARD
Date: on 01/24/2016 02:06 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Sirens are quite susceptible to sleep (501) and I only have 75 ranks in that circle. Sentries were something I avoided before and continue to avoid.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1381
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 01/24/2016 02:31 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


So out of 26 casts of 912 I had 3 where I failed to knock down my intended target. I'm still using Immolation most of the time and just throwing in 912 as I think of it (old habits and all that) so I'll need a lot more casts before I can see what my true success/fail rate is.

Here's the breakdown by creature (successful 912 knockdown casts / total casts) - Executioner (1/1) - Combatant (2/2) - Greater Water Elemental (1/2) - Radical(2/2) - Sentry (7/9) *Similar success rate to immolation casts for me with the downside that the sentry will continue to cast spells while on the ground when I use Call Wind. - Siren (6/6) - Water Elemental (4/4)

In some of these cases I also had knockdowns on additional targets but the above just reflects success/fail with my intended target.

-- Robert aka Faulkil

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul." Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1382
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 01/24/2016 02:48 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>> Sirens are quite susceptible to sleep (501) and I only have 75 ranks in that circle. Sentries were something I avoided before and continue to avoid.

The thing I like about immolate is you get stun plus on the ground and/or shield droppage . Call wind puts them on the ground and stances them. Sleep is just on the ground but no stance or other effect (is there an extra penalty because they are asleep???). I think its about 13 mana to cast sleep on a siren so it's really comparable to the other options on the mana side of things, especially with the drop in mana cost for immolation. I think my sleep success rate on sirens is like 100% though (I tend to sleep them and leave them when I know others are looking for them for bounties).

I used to avoid sentries and GWEs for the most part. Since I've managed to beef up my TD over the past year or two to the point where sentries now have trouble warding me I don't worry about it as much. Basically for sentries I'll throw 1-2 casts of immolation which will disable them most of the time (80% ish chance to ward on each cast) and if I fail both immolation casts or more than 1 things is in the room with it then I'll just move on (plenty more where that one came from).

I still generally avoid GWEs because they have the ability to insta-kill me with one their abilities, especially if I am encumbered. If I'm not encumbered I'll usually move on if there is nothing else in the room of interest (e.g. bounty critter) or take them down with fire ball if there is (the flare damage is often better than the initial ball cast). I need to do more experimenting with Call Wind on them since once the GWE is on the ground it's next action is almost always just to stand back up. Quite frequently I can knock them down with the fire ball or fire ball splash but not often enough that I would rely on it while encumbered.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul." Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1383
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/24/2016 04:26 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>Basically for sentries I'll throw 1-2 casts of immolation which will disable them most of the time (80% ish chance to ward on each cast) and if I fail both immolation casts or more than 1 things is in the room with it then I'll just move on (plenty more where that one came from).

The problem with this strategy is if everyone employs it, it greatly increases the danger for those left hunting the area with pre-spawned and now angry creatures ready to implode on sight.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1384
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 01/24/2016 04:34 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>> The problem with this strategy is if everyone employs it, it greatly increases the danger for those left hunting the area with pre-spawned and now angry creatures ready to implode on sight.

I guess I wasn't clear. I'm leaving before they have a chance to prep if I am leaving the room.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul." Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1385
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/24/2016 04:38 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>I guess I wasn't clear. I'm leaving before they have a chance to prep if I am leaving the room.

How does that align with "and if I fail both immolation casts"? Not picking on you specifically, but this strategy just doesn't seem to be beneficial to anyone or address the issue of insufficiently reliable disablers.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1386
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 01/24/2016 06:51 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>> How does that align with "and if I fail both immolation casts"?

I'm not feeling picked on specifically. I'll try and clarify my hunting strategy a bit more.

I do a lot of PEERing before I enter any room, especially in the area where sentrys/GWEs frequent vs. the popular approach which is running around at supersonic speed with ;wander turned on (which is far more likely to setup an angry sentry with a prepared spell by the way).

If I see a sentry in the next room I will very often let it come to me unless it is alone.

If a sentry wanders into your room you can easily get off two casts of immolation prior to it preparing/casting a spell. If it is immolated then I can simply finish it off. If after two casts it is not immolated then I can move away prior to it casting or preparing a spell. No angry/prepped sentry in this scenario.

If the sentry is alone then I'll move in and cast immolate. Yup, there's a chance it might cast or prepare something. If immolate doesn't work and it hasn't cast prepped I may move on or I may just stick it out and see what happens. Depends on my mood/time of day/what I'm hunting/etc. It it does prep something I can dispel it and then move on or simply try and finish it off. Again, depends on my mood at the time.

>> Not picking on you specifically, but this strategy just doesn't seem to be beneficial to anyone or address the issue of insufficiently reliable disablers.

Sentrys are arguably the hardest thing there is in the temple (or a close 2nd to GWEs depending on your class). They are extremely hard to ward. The current disabler version of immolation works pretty much without fail on everything in the temple with the exception of sentrys (and possibly GWEs which I hardly ever cast immolation on so don't recall what they ward at). I think it is reasonable to say that a disabler spell that works very well on sirens, combatants, executioners, radicals, dissemblers, magus, and defenders nearly all of the time and works on sentrys ~80% of the time fits in the reliable disabler spell category.

If I chose to, I could improve my chances by another 10% or more by utilizing heavy quartz orbs, training my Major Elt above 100, or invest in enhancives to increase my CS. It's something I've considered but my current strategy works 'well enough' for me at present (80% x 2 means I'm not walking away most of the time anyway and I've trained such that throwing out an extra 15-30 mana here and there isn't a concern).

Alternatively, I could choose to use call wind and make judicious use of dispel against sentrys (which requires no warding to remove their prepared spell) but I don't like letting them cast their non-prepped spells at me even with my improved TD.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul." Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1387
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 01/24/2016 07:10 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>especially in the area where sentrys/GWEs frequent vs. the popular approach which is running around at supersonic speed with ;wander turned on (which is far more likely to setup an angry sentry with a prepared spell by the way

are people who are leaving/loudly complaining usually dependent on wander or even bigshot for hunting? sincere question

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1388
Author: DOUG
Date: on 01/24/2016 08:40 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>>are people who are leaving/loudly complaining usually dependent on wander or even bigshot for hunting? sincere question

While we probably can't ever say for sure, I'm betting no. Most of our speedsters actually move faster than (or as fast as) a script can. Bigshot's a bit too persnickity for use in capped areas anyway. Wander, I suppose, can be tuned to be much more efficient.

OTF is the outlier perhaps, since it has a much larger area in general, and specific subzones.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1389
Author: DOUG
Date: on 01/24/2016 08:44 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>> I think it is reasonable to say that a disabler spell that works very well on sirens, combatants, executioners, radicals, dissemblers, magus, and defenders nearly all of the time and works on sentrys ~80% of the time fits in the reliable disabler spell category.

I was wondering if we would get to this point in the discussion. I'm curious what percentage threshold = reliability here, in general. Given that a capped wizard should probably be able to take out anything other than sentries (103) and elementals (105) without much difficulty, is that 80% to 90% threshold reasonable?

I suspect some would put reliable only at 100% - and I can understand that. But I won't agree with it, risk is a necessary evil.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1390
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/24/2016 11:15 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>I suspect some would put reliable only at 100% - and I can understand that. But I won't agree with it, risk is a necessary evil.

And I won't agree with that, when 100% reliable is achievable for post-cap pures of every other class.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1391
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 01/25/2016 06:37 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


It seems the 0 RT proc is being a big liarface.


You are now in an offensive stance. >Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Fire... Your spell is ready. Seeing an opportunity, you accelerate time and empower your spell! You channel at a huge air elemental. You hurl a stream of fire at a huge air elemental! 

 AS: +513 vs DS: +366 with AvD: +31 + d100 roll: +7 = +185
  ... and hit for 56 points of damage!

Cast Roundtime 1 Second. 

Roundtime: 0 sec.

> Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded. >stance offensive incant 906 stance defensive You are now in an offensive stance. 

>Wait 1 sec.


~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1392
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 01/25/2016 07:18 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


Methais
It seems the 0 RT proc is being a big liarface.
You are now in an offensive stance.
>Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Fire...
Your spell is ready.
Seeing an opportunity, you accelerate time and empower your spell!
You channel at a huge air elemental.
You hurl a stream of fire at a huge air elemental!
AS: +513 vs DS: +366 with AvD: +31 + d100 roll: +7 = +185
... and hit for 56 points of damage!
Cast Roundtime 1 Second.
Roundtime: 0 sec.
>
Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.
>stance offensive
incant 906
stance defensive
You are now in an offensive stance.
>Wait 1 sec.

The "Wait 1 sec." is due to the castRT (when you try to cast for the second time). Your log shows you going to stance guarded immediately after casting, then back to stance offensive. You can't change stances while in roundtime.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1393
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 01/25/2016 08:48 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>The "Wait 1 sec." is due to the castRT (when you try to cast for the second time). Your log shows you going to stance guarded immediately after casting, then back to stance offensive. You can't change stances while in roundtime.

Oh I see...I was thinking this was the old proc, not the channel proc.

I blame Monday. And mornings. And Obama. And Bush.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1394
Author: DOUG
Date: on 01/25/2016 09:24 AM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>>And I won't agree with that, when 100% reliable is achievable for post-cap pures of every other class.

I truly regret that it is taking me so long to get my head around this - it feels more complicated than 'everyone but us can do it alla time'. So I'm struggling.

I am pretty sure Robert (in this case) could too. 'Achievable' doesn't equal 'accomplished'. Still not sure if it will hold true everywhere, but pretty sure here it does.

Are we to start comparing training plans, and training points spent next in our bid for push-button simplicity (Doug's term for 100% reliable)? Then perhaps debate when those points would be spent post-cap, I might add, to accomplish this achievement?

I hope not. Leads to nothing but bad feelings in my experience.

Just to go back to the top, we're talking about:

1) The rapid killing power of the wizard (one shot one kill) as a viable means of crowd control? 2) The rapid killing power of other professions (one shot one kill) as a viable means of crowd control? 3) Not really tied to crowd control at all, but otherwise, yes - (one shot one kill)? 4) Taquito? (For when you're not up to the whole enchilada.)

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1395
Author: RISHIB1
Date: on 01/25/2016 10:20 AM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Which 100% reliable disabler do you think Empaths have? 1108 doesn't work on undead, and sometimes it just shoots the creature to the next room. 214 costs too much mana to use at cap.

Rishi - Player of Kembal


Speaking to Plur, Belnia says, "You're no Kembal."


[Roll result: -2112 (open d100: 82)] A giantman thief crouches and sweeps a leg at you, but only manages to trip himself.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1396
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 01/25/2016 10:48 AM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>Which 100% reliable disabler do you think Empaths have? 1108 doesn't work on undead, and sometimes it just shoots the creature to the next room. 214 costs too much mana to use at cap.

I'm assuming they're talking about 135.


~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1397
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 01/25/2016 10:50 AM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


I haven't played with it much, but I think people have stated that Searing Light (135) has a 100% disable rate if you can ward the target. With proper training, outside spells, and enhancives, the argument is that you can attain that 100% success rate.

https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Searing_Light_(135)


It would be nice to know the exact formula used for disablers like Elemental Wave, Call Wind, Tremors, etc. I don't think that being able to see all the factors involved in casting a CS spell should be an inherent advantage over a maneuver based spell. Obfuscation should not be used as a balancing tactic. If wizards could efficiently maximize their training in order to achieve 100% success rates with these spells, assuming it is already possible with maneuver-based disablers, it shouldn't be seen as any more unbalancing than it is to do so with CS-based disablers.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1398
Author: DRUMPEL
Date: on 01/25/2016 01:45 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>It would be nice to know the exact formula used for disablers like Elemental Wave, Call Wind, Tremors, etc. I don't think that being able to see all the factors involved in casting a CS spell should be an inherent advantage over a maneuver based spell. Obfuscation should not be used as a balancing tactic. If wizards could efficiently maximize their training in order to achieve 100% success rates with these spells, assuming it is already possible with maneuver-based disablers, it shouldn't be seen as any more unbalancing than it is to do so with CS-based disablers.

Call Wind, ewave and such - they're pretty much level based and also take into account your spell ranks in that circle.


Call Wind: This spell is strongly influenced by level and the number of Wizard Base spell ranks known. The change in

Ewave: The primary success factor of this spell is a level comparison of the caster versus its targets. Minor Elemental ranks are also factored in

Tremors: I see no mention on the gswiki about spell strength, but I'd venture to guess it falls in line with the others above - level and spell ranks.

That's about all we're given and I don't think they'll give out the exact formula. We can keep asking....

-Drumpel

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1399
Author: RISHIB1
Date: on 01/25/2016 02:00 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>I haven't played with it much, but I think people have stated that Searing Light (135) has a 100% disable rate if you can ward the target. With proper training, outside spells, and enhancives, the argument is that you can attain that 100% success rate. - Observer

I like 135, but it being in our minor circle means that I'm not going to fully train to maximize its CS until way post-cap. So warding targets isn't a given. Outside spells are going to vary based on hunting ground (i.e. not going to work in the Rift).

But this is crazy...in terms of mass disablers, you guys are comparing a 35th level spell to 10th and 12th level spells. I would expect a 35th level spell to do better. My question is, how does 435 work as a mass disabler? Does it frequently fail to knock down targets?

Rishi - Player of Kembal


Speaking to Plur, Belnia says, "You're no Kembal."


[Roll result: -2112 (open d100: 82)] A giantman thief crouches and sweeps a leg at you, but only manages to trip himself.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1400
Author: ALSTHAR
Date: on 01/25/2016 02:24 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


It does also do damage, typically not a lot but some as compared none for most other disabling spells. And while it doesn't work against creatures with no eyes (this is a very, very small subset), it does work on a lot of creatures typically immune to disabling effects. The second point being far more important in explaining the level difference.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1401
Author: DOUG
Date: on 01/25/2016 02:32 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>>But this is crazy...in terms of mass disablers, you guys are comparing a 35th level spell to 10th and 12th level spells. I would expect a 35th level spell to do better. My question is, how does 435 work as a mass disabler? Does it frequently fail to knock down targets?

Crazy? Crazy, you say?!

Well, yeah, kinda. In fact, I'm really struggling with this 'revelation'. I don't profess to be the end-all, be-all empath player, but I don't know of very many capped hunting empaths that would purposefully maximize the CS potential of the minor sphere over the empathic sphere. Maybe I am crazy, but I don't see that happening. Ever. Enhanced or not.

To answer your question directly, though, Rishi - 435 and 135 is an apt comparison, with the only difference seeming to be the elemental SMR against the more classic spiritual CS. So it can be hard to do an accurate comparison. In my experience, 435 is one of the last spells I would pull out of the Elf's hat. Way too much potential for 3F (friendly fire fatality), in my view.

If there were a 'design flaw' worthy of the name and ensuing discussion, I'd have to say it's the potential for up to +45 (although more realistically probably +25 to +30) CS added by Spirit Slayer. Wizards don't have a corresponding SMR-based increase spell that could affect their Stomp (909) or Waves (410 / 435 / 912?). I'm not sure that's a significant gap, mind you. Most of the wizard's 'improvement spell' types tend to deal with AS, crit or temporal factors. It's a trade-off.

The bigger complication as pointed out by Observer is the net effect of not seeing, being able to gauge improvement to, and plotting to successfully influence (maximize) the end result. While I'm not necessarily in support of exposing all game information, the knock-on effect is when the wizard tries, fails, and has no feedback on which to base further decisions the spell likely will not be attempted again and is automatically no where's near as effective as any other spell the tabulated results of which can be seen.

That part makes sense - if I can't see how to manipulate it, the spell isn't as reliable - that's where I'm thinking the 135 reliability argument is going to land, ultimately.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1402
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 01/25/2016 02:43 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>That's about all we're given and I don't think they'll give out the exact formula. We can keep asking. -Drumpel

That's the plan. They've slowly gotten better about letting us know how to properly train our characters. Here's hoping that trend continues.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1403
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 01/25/2016 02:49 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


It really boils down to enhancements as well. You cannot enhance your skill with maneuver-based spells. At least not Wizard ones, once you hit cap. It seems like Call Wind would be better served to lose the %chance at cyclones and instead have increased effectiveness the more air lore you possess.

"Training in Elemental Lore, Water will cause targets to have a reduced maneuver defense based on a linear formula involving skill bonus. The specifics are unknown, but 90 skill (20 ranks) is enough to overcome the defensive bonus provided by the spell Empathic Focus (1109) and continued skill increases further improve this bonus without diminishing returns."

That's for E-wave.

Why not set something similar up for Call Wind, but instead of reducing maneuver defense, it begins to negate the level difference between you and the caster?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1404
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 01/25/2016 06:52 PM PST
Subject: Hand of Tonis (505)


If channel affects the bolt, should channel affect the warding version? I don't hear much about the CS version being used as a disabler. What do people think of having an open cast/mass version of it?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1405
Author: MEKK1
Date: on 01/25/2016 07:25 PM PST
Subject: Re: Hand of Tonis (505)


Thats a low cost for a mass spell that completely disables.

Drauz

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1406
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 01/25/2016 07:33 PM PST
Subject: Re: Hand of Tonis (505)


>Thats a low cost for a mass spell that completely disables.

703 can completely block the whole room from casting for 15 seconds with a TD pushdown. I don't think it's a big stretch if lore training is tied in.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1407
Author: DRUMPEL
Date: on 01/25/2016 07:39 PM PST
Subject: 520 - Elemental Stone Skin (suggestion - sorry, long post)


I'm a firm believer that if you choose to ATTUNE to an element, you should be rewarded with some benefits to your spells (not just a certain handful of spells, but all spells across the Wizard spell circles). Anyone that chooses to not ATTUNE to an element will still have a solid spell to use for utility or combat, they just loose out on some of the flare that an ATTUNED wizard would get.

520 Elemental Stone Skin

Self cast Stackable 1200 second duration

Manipulating the elemental forces within his/her body, the caster forms a layer of hard elemental stone skin that shifts with his/her movements. This self-cast spell provides additional protection from physical attacks in the form of hitpoint damage absorption, mimics harder armor with no spell hinderance and provides elemental protection for your ATTUNED element.

Shatter Point The shatter point is a measure of the total hit point damage absorbed before the stone skin is completely destroyed. The stone skin will not fail until all hit points have been absorbed, the spell is removed or the caster has died. The factors that determine the shatter point are Major Elemental spells (1 point per rank) + ATTUNED lore (1 point per ranks) + (all other lore ranks/2). If you're not ATTUNED to an elemental lore, you will receive a reduced benefit of all EL ranks known / 2. ATTUNED to lightning will take the combination of Air & Watre lore. ATTUNED to Air gives a reduced benefit due to how Haste provides great RT reduction for heavy air lore training.

ATTUNED Lore
Shatter Point = MjE ranks + ATTUNED Elemental Lore ranks known + ((all unATTUNED lore ranks)/2)
ATTUNED Lightning
Shatter Point = MjE ranks + (Air + Water lore ranks) + ((Earth + Fire lore ranks)/2)
ATTUNED Air
Shatter Point = MjE ranks + (Air lore /1.5) + (all other EL ranks/2)
No ATTUNED Lore
Shatter Point = MjE ranks + trunc(all lore ranks / 2)

Examples: ATTUNED to Water. MjE ranks = 50, EL:W ranks = 60, all other EL ranks = 20 Damage absorbed before shattering = 120 points (50 + 60 + (20/2))

ATTUNED to Lightning. MjE ranks = 50, EL:W = 30, EL:A = 30, all other EL ranks = 20 Damaged absorbed before shattering = 120 points (50 + (30 + 30) + (20/2))

ATTUNED to Air. MjE ranks = 50 points, EL:A = 60, all other EL = 20 Damaged absorbed before shattering = 100 (50 + ((60/1.5)+(20/2))

A wizard not attuned to a lore. MjE ranks = 50, total EL ranks = 80 Damage absorbed before shattering = 90 points (50 + (80/2))


Elemental Resistance Your ATTUNED element will provide protection against like elements used against you. For instance, if you're ATTUNED to Fire, you'll be able to build up resistance towards fire based attacks. If you do not ATTUNE to an element, you gain no elemental resistance. Seed 3 summation based on your EL ranks for your ATTUNED element gains damage reduction against the same element.

An example. You're ATTUNED to fire. You have put 60 ranks in EL:F and 40 ranks into EL:A. You gain an 8% damage reduction from fire attacks.

Elemental Resistance
ATTUNED Lore ranks 3 7 12 18 25 33 42 52 63 75 88 102 117 133 150 168 187 207 228 250
1% 2% 3% 4% 5% 6% 7% 8% 9% 10% 11% 12% 13% 14% 15% 16% 17% 18% 19% 20%


Armor Protection Being ATTUNED to an element provides a boost to your Elemental Skin armor level and actual ARMOR ranks can provide an added boost as well (ARMOR ranks * 2 : capped at 25 ranks). The Elemental Stone Skill mimics harder armor while not incuring any spell hinderance. Any current armor worn, only the enchantment level will carry through the Elemental Skin. Also, if your current armor AsG level is lower than what you are fully trained for, if the AsG provided through Elemental Skin is greater, the worn armor and special properties are nullified as long as the spell is active. ATTUNED to Air lore gives a reduced benefit since heavy Air Lore gives Haste a greater RT reduction.

Example: You are fully traned for 6x double leather (AsG 8) and you have HCP protection on it. If your Elemental Stone Skin gives you AsG 9 (leather breastplate) or higher, your HCP from your double leather doesn't carry through. Only the 6x enchantment will still be active. The one benefit you have is if your stone skin shatters, you'll then have your HCP armor to fall back on.

ATTUNED Lore Armor Level
MjE ranks + ATTUNED Lore Ranks + (other Lore Ranks/2) + (ARMOR ranks * 2)
ATTUNED Air Armor Level
MjE ranks + (Air Lore ranks / 1.5) + (other Lore Ranks/2) + (ARMOR ranks * 2)
No ATTUNED Lore Armor* Level
MjE ranks + (All Lore Ranks * .6) + (ARMOR ranks * 2)

Armor Protection Level (AsG)

Total Ranks Armor Type AsG
50 ranks Reinforced leather AsG 7
75 ranks Double leather AsG 8
100 ranks Leather breastplate AsG 9
125 ranks Cuirbouilli leather AsG 10
150 ranks Studded leather AsG 11
175 ranks Brigandine AsG 12
225 ranks Chain mail AsG 13
275 ranks Double chain AsG 14
325 ranks Augmented chain AsG 15
400 ranks Chain hauberk AsG 16

Examples:

No ATTUNED Lore MjE ranks = 60, total EL ranks = 100, ARMOR ranks = 4 128 ranks for AsG 10 - Cuirbouilli Leather (60 +(100 * .6) + (4 *2))

ATTUNED to Earth Lore MjE ranks = 60, EL:E = 80, all other EL = 20, ARMOR ranks = 4 158 ranks for AsG 11 - Studed Leather (60 + 80 + (20/2) + (4 * 2))

ATTUNED to Air Lore MjE ranks = 60, EL:A = 80, all other EL = 20, ARMOR ranks = 4 131 ranks for AsG 10 - Cuirbouilli Leather (60 +((80/1.5)+(20/2)) + (4*2)

Something like this - I don't see it as over powering on any level. The trade off of the spell will come into play a lot more past level 50, but still be somewhat useful around level 25 if you have at least 25 MjE spells and 1x in lores towards your ATTUNED element - you'll earn the benefit of having Reinforced Leather armor protection without the spell hindrance normal Reinforced Leather would give. Not to mention you'd receive 5% damage reduction against your ATTUNED element.

Those ATTUNED to air lore take a little bit of a reduced return against the other ATTUNED lores simply because a well trained mage in air lore gets a greatly increased RT reduction from Haste. Elemental Stone Skin will still be a viable spell for non-ATTUNED and air ATTUNED mages, they just don't get as great of a benefit.

Clearly, this is just an idea, but this would be how I'd like to see lores benefit spells and how being ATTUNED to an element will give you special benefits as well.

-Drumpel

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1408
Author: RISHIB1
Date: on 01/25/2016 07:46 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>Doug's post

I have to admit, the idea of 240 + 135 never crossed my mind until just now. Of course, to try it, I'd blow 17.5% of my mana in one shot, so it'd have to be a pretty bad swarm to make it worth the effort. (and in those cases, it'd just be safer to run most of the time)

135 isn't player friendly either though (only group friendly, just like 435), so the same risks apply that you noted, Doug.

But if this whole thing about reliability is really about information provided, then I don't know what to say. I do think comparisons to other pure professions aren't serving anyone's cause here without data backing them up, because the assumptions being made aren't grounded in reality, and thus the GMs aren't being persuaded. (the 1115/519/317 comparison worked because of data)

Rishi - Player of Kembal


Speaking to Plur, Belnia says, "You're no Kembal."


[Roll result: -2112 (open d100: 82)] A giantman thief crouches and sweeps a leg at you, but only manages to trip himself.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1409
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 01/25/2016 07:53 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Rishi, Player of Kembal
I have to admit, the idea of 240 + 135 never crossed my mind until just now.

Spirit Slayer (240) doesn't work with mass effect spells.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1410
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 01/25/2016 07:54 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>> >>And I won't agree with that, when 100% reliable is achievable for post-cap pures of every other class.

>> I truly regret that it is taking me so long to get my head around this - it feels more complicated than 'everyone but us can do it alla time'. So I'm struggling.

>> I am pretty sure Robert (in this case) could too. 'Achievable' doesn't equal 'accomplished'. Still not sure if it will hold true everywhere, but pretty sure here it does.

I already laid out how I could achieve ~100% success on sentrys. No doubt if I presently had a 100% success rate we'd be talking about how it didn't really count due to my post cap training, enhancives, etc.

I don't use enhancives (I do use outside spells but none of them boost my warding), I don't have a mutant training plan, I can still train another 27 or so ranks in my spell lists, and I don't bother to use heavy quartz orbs but I still have an 80% warding margin on the hardest thing in there. I do have the +10 benefit to my CS due to being a dark elf which using a heavy quartz orb would offset for non-dark elves.

If you don't think 80% is 'reasonable' for disabling the toughest thing in there (for my hunting area) then train differently than I have, use enhancives, or use a different strategy (one of which I laid out in an earlier post).

There are plenty of things to complain about with the ELR and all of the wizard changes but I think the disabler version of Immolation is in a good place now.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul." Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1411
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 01/25/2016 08:04 PM PST
Subject: Re: Hand of Tonis (505)


also they can just put an additional mana cost on it.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1412
Author: DOUG
Date: on 01/25/2016 08:23 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>>Spirit Slayer (240) doesn't work with mass effect spells.

Still learning, even after all this time. I agree, Rishi, that's a ton of mana - and I would have said that it would be more likely not to even take effect (higher level spells are harder for the slayer to recast). But now. . . I don't even have to.

Ok, so - we're back to parity.

>>I do think comparisons to other pure professions aren't serving anyone's cause here without data backing them up, because the assumptions being made aren't grounded in reality, and thus the GMs aren't being persuaded. (the 1115/519/317 comparison worked because of data)

And agreed. So far, we have a couple of data points, I'm well above 65% in the Rift with 912 (and against creatures almost all of whom can be higher than 100 levels), and Robert's sharing a comparable picture for Nelemar (exceeding(?) 80% with his chosen tactics.) More data would help, perhaps?

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1413
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/25/2016 09:56 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>If you don't think 80% is 'reasonable' for disabling the toughest thing in there (for my hunting area) then train differently than I have, use enhancives, or use a different strategy (one of which I laid out in an earlier post).

As we've stated, enhancives wouldn't help. 519 is also a single target disabler.

240 doesn't help mass effect spells, but 340 does. Regardless, the CS mass disablers can be boosted via 1711, 1612, and stat enhancives to guarantee 100% successful warding margin barring a fumble. The data is there, it just seems that it is being selectively ignored.

If you're personally satisfied being 80% as effective as the other pures, that's great, but don't speak for others with more post-cap experience than you as if they don't know what they are doing.

Just because you choose to ignore the most difficult post-cap creatures does not make it a satisfactory solution as wizards have never had to do so, just like none of the other pures has to still.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1414
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 01/26/2016 03:00 AM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


DESTINY14
As we've stated, enhancives wouldn't help.

Every caster can raise their CS by up to 20 from enhancives.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1415
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/26/2016 04:27 AM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>Every caster can raise their CS by up to 20 from enhancives.

We're talking about the lack of a mass CS disabler.

But while it's true every caster raise their CS from enhancives, spiritualists can benefit from other CS boosters that elementalists can't (1612 and 340). Also, elemental TDs for creatures are higher across the board to compensate for the existence of 425, while spiritual TDs are not similarly raised to compensate for the existence of 240 and 340.

Put differently, I suppose you can say that spiritualists have a power up, a panic button, and access to reliable mass disablers while wizards, as pure elementalists, do not.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1416
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 01/26/2016 07:04 AM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Let's recap for a moment here Destiny14:

I explained how I hunted Sentrys and GWEs in the temple.

You didn't have a clear understanding of my hunting strategy using 519 and tried to dismiss it as useless so I clarified.

Still within the context of 519, you then stated that 100% was the only thing reasonable since you felt that all other pures could achieve this (but not wizards).

I then explained (more clearly) how 100% could be achieved using immolation with additional training, enhancives, etc.

You then (incorrectly) stated that enhancives wouldn't help and then introduced that 519 is a single target disabler (which I thought should have been clear and obvious from the initial part of the discussion, but I'm glad you know this now).

You then additionally restated my posts incorrectly by attributing my entire hunting strategy to being 80% as effective as other pures (which is incorrect in a number of ways), and insinuated (incorrectly) that I am speaking for others.

What exactly are you adding to the discussion so far, oh wise one? My commentary has been directly focused on the disabler version of 519-Immolation (a single target disabler spell in case there is still some confusion on this point) and its effectiveness. I'm not completely clear as to what point(s) you are trying to make.

Also, how much post cap experience is required to participate in your part of the discussion going forward?

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul." Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1417
Author: DOUG
Date: on 01/26/2016 08:11 AM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>> spiritualists can benefit from other CS boosters that elementalists can't (1612 and 340).

1612 is self-cast. Are we suggesting that paladins should be added to the list of folks with this ability?

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1418
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 01/26/2016 10:33 AM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>Well, yeah, kinda. In fact, I'm really struggling with this 'revelation'. I don't profess to be the end-all, be-all empath player, but I don't know of very many capped hunting empaths that would purposefully maximize the CS potential of the minor sphere over the empathic sphere. Maybe I am crazy, but I don't see that happening. Ever. Enhanced or not.


Since fire lore is mostly useless now outside of 415, I dropped down to 101 fire/101 air and redid my spells from 159/67/77 to 101/101/101 mainly for 415 CS, because it's better than immolate now. My CS is 530 across the board now. Before, MnE was 504, MjE was 557, and wizard I don't remember because what am I gonna do with it, cast Weapon Fire? Before I respecced I could still hit things most of the time with 415. I just had no use for it because Immolate wasn't trash then.

But back to the original point, it's not at all out of the realm of possibility for an off-sphere CS to be on par with your main CS, especially right now for wizards.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1419
Author: DOUG
Date: on 01/26/2016 10:41 AM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>>for wizards.

Agree. You did see though, that we were talking about minor spiritual / empath, right? It. Is. NOT. MONDAY!

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1420
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/26/2016 11:17 AM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>1612 is self-cast. Are we suggesting that paladins should be added to the list of folks with this ability?

208 exists.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1421
Author: DOUG
Date: on 01/26/2016 11:55 AM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>>208 exists.

It does, you know. . . yes indeed it does!

Is this a technique you regularly employ and are exceedingly familiar with, Destiny?

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1422
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/26/2016 12:08 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>It does, you know. . . yes indeed it does!

My point is that a sufficiently trained and equipped post-cap spiritual pure has access to a much wider arsenal of tools and guaranteed, reliable mass diablers and instant kill mechanisms than wizards do.

Via Scroll Infusion and 208, all of the spiritual pures also have access to a much wider circle of outside spells than the average wizard does. So far, we've done nothing but take away from the post-cap wizard to transfer power to the pocket mage who doesn't have to actually hunt much or much that is dangerous. Wizards are now expected to rely more heavily on CS spells and disablers to hunt, yet the tools for wizards are not at all equal or even remotely comparable to what the spiritual pures have at their disposal.

Just because it is not apparent to some how much power the post-cap wizard has lost doesn't mean that those gaps don't exist. They do, and it's untenable. And no, the solution is not to nerf the spiritual pures into the ground either.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1423
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 01/26/2016 12:53 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


The problem at hand, as already stated, is if we cast 410/912 and it doesn't work, we don't know why.

If you cast 135 or whatever and it doesn't affect the target, you know exactly why.

410/912 we have no way to tell if it was a bad roll, a level difference issue, spell training, etc.

Most people see 410/912 as a weak crowd control spell post-cap because it's not only failing a lot, but we have no idea why it's failing or have anything to base any adjustments in training over.

>Every caster can raise their CS by up to 20 from enhancives. -Estild

Plus as has already been said, we have 0 options to make our mass disablers better via enhancive items. This isn't the case with CS based disablers.

I think there are to many non-corporeal/crit immune critters at cap in general (crusaders, crawlers and cerebralites which sometimes take crit damage but usually don't, defenders, sentries, everything in the confluence, water elementals in Nelemar, etc. Did I miss anything?)

I don't even see the need for non-corporeal/crit immune critters ever since crit randomization was implemented.

Perhaps someone can enlighten me on why it's necessary to have that many at cap.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1424
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 01/26/2016 12:56 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>> My point is that a sufficiently trained and equipped post-cap spiritual pure has access to a much wider arsenal of tools and guaranteed, reliable mass diablers and instant kill mechanisms than wizards do.

Maybe it would be helpful in advancing the conversation if instead of painting with a broad brush we identified which post-cap spiritualists have these arsenals and exactly what it is that is in each of these spiritualists arsenal. I'm not saying that these arsenals don't exist, but as someone who doesn't play a post capped spiritualist I'm not really clear which apples we are comparing here. A lot of the recent examples being thrown around seem more like lemons than apples (e.g. 208) and there's definitely been some misinformation in terms of what spells work with what.

So... our list of spiritualists with reliable arsenals are: Clerics, Empaths, and Sorcerers? What is it that is in each of these aresenals?

For Wizards, I will list the following:

- RapidFire which can be to great effect on a single or multiple target using a range of spells (noted it has a cooldown but it still is a potent weapon when not on cooldown). Arguably more potent then many of the other spells out there.

SINGLE TARGET - Immolation (disabler version, SINGLE TARGET ONLY) which has a decent duration on a successful ward and seem fairly reliable in my book. - Sleep: While the duration is fine, I find this spell too limiting as a disabler as it then precludes the use of any ball/area spells. - Stone Fist (hahahahahaha... moving on. This spell could be really awesome but definitely needs a complete rework) - Sandstorm: Too slow to get initial result to count? What if Sandstorm had an initial Call Wind effect on the room up front (but then the sandstorm went for the indicated target)? I'd probably look at using it myself then.

MULTI-TARGET - Call Wind: I'm just recently experimenting with this spell. It doesnt' seem to have enough oomph without massive Air Lore investment. I seem to recall it is used to good effect against Lich's by some wizards. It's basically EWave with a chance to get an immolation like effect on a single target if you're lucky. - Ewave: Level based results which makes it 'meh' in the harder areas. Maybe put it to good use when combined with Slow? - Major Ewave: Not player friendly so sort of off the list in my book. - Tremors: I haven't used the new version of this spell enough to have a feel for it. Feedback here on the forums seems to indicate it isn't reliable enough? - Slow: With the enhancements at least it is free to cast (in time) now but still means the critter is going to take actions (just less frequently). Not a great main disabler spell in my book but it does have some uses.

Did I miss anything in the wizard arsenal?

From the list above, I would agree that I find our multi-target tools somewhat lacking (hence the reason why I choose to immolate targets one at a time). It seems to be hinted that over training in wizards might produce noticably more reliable results with Call Wind but I still find the overall effect of this spell uninspiring unless you get the lucky vortex result (which is really only a single target disabler in that regard).

Can someone very familiar with the well-arsenaled spiritualists post something similar for each of those classes? What single and multi-target tools do they have and how effective are they?

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul." Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1425
Author: ZENDADA
Date: on 01/26/2016 01:01 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Did I miss anything in the wizard arsenal?
PEREGRINEFALCON

518 Cone of Elements?

Chad, player of a few

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1426
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 01/26/2016 01:10 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>Agree. You did see though, that we were talking about minor spiritual / empath, right?

Yes I know. I was responding to this point:

>I don't profess to be the end-all, be-all empath player, but I don't know of very many capped hunting empaths that would purposefully maximize the CS potential of the minor sphere over the empathic sphere.

With a wizard equivalent example.

>It. Is. NOT. MONDAY!

The day that Methais graced your village was the most important day of your life. But for me, it was Tuesday.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1427
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/26/2016 01:14 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>Can someone very familiar with the well-arsenaled spiritualists post something similar for each of those classes? What single and multi-target tools do they have and how effective are they?

It's been articulated many times and if you choose not to believe them, I doubt anyone is going to sit here and help nerf the spiritual pures into the ground as well.

I'll be happy to drop this conversation when a profession change is allowed, since the current wizard class isn't the type of pure I had chosen to play, nor do I have any desire to play a full-time war mage post-cap.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1428
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 01/26/2016 01:16 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


> 518 Cone of Elements?

Agree! While I don't consider Cone of Elements as a disabler in the more 'traditional' sense, I do use it to clear the room quickly when there are three or more critters present.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul." Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1429
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 01/26/2016 01:30 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>Agree! While I don't consider Cone of Elements as a disabler in the more 'traditional' sense, I do use it to clear the room quickly when there are three or more critters present.

Doesn't it only hit 3 targets now? I forgot if there was a way to increase it after that got nerfed too.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1430
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 01/26/2016 01:34 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>> Doesn't it only hit 3 targets now? I forgot if there was a way to increase it after that got nerfed too.

Up to 6 (player friendly) Up to 12 (not player friendly)

Based on EMC training.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul." Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1431
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 01/26/2016 01:36 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>Doesn't it only hit 3 targets now?

5 using evoke. More with EMC.

https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Cone_of_Elements_(518)

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1432
Author: RISHIB1
Date: on 01/26/2016 03:30 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>Destiny14's posts regarding 208

I'm pretty sure the GMs can probably count the casts of 208 in one day on one hand. Although I should try and see if I can steal Balefire off of a cerebalite...that might be fun to play with.

1711 is really the only accessible CS booster that has duration longer than one cast. 340's a one time boost.

Rishi - Player of Kembal



Speaking to Plur, Belnia says, "You're no Kembal."


[Roll result: -2112 (open d100: 82)] A giantman thief crouches and sweeps a leg at you, but only manages to trip himself.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1433
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/26/2016 05:33 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>I'm pretty sure the GMs can probably count the casts of 208 in one day on one hand.

I bet you'd be wrong.

>340's a one time boost.

And not exactly. It's pretty sustainable use. Wizards don't have a one time boost of any kind though.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1434
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 01/26/2016 05:42 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>> >> 340's a one time boost.

>> And not exactly. It's pretty sustainable use. Wizards don't have a one time boost of any kind though.

Is that what you think is needed to address the wizard concerns Destiny14? A one time, high mana, CS booster spell?

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul." Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1435
Author: GS4-FINROS
Date: on 01/26/2016 06:10 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>>I'm pretty sure the GMs can probably count the casts of 208 in one day on one hand. >I bet you'd be wrong.

You two can split the difference.

Today (so far): 16 Yesterday: 19 Two days ago: 0 Three days ago: 1 Four days ago: 3

And so forth. Though it does look like "count on one hand" is more historically true before that. The last two days have been anomalous.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1436
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 01/26/2016 06:18 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>> And not exactly. It's pretty sustainable use. Wizards don't have a one time boost of any kind though.

And technically... 413-Elemental Saturation provide a CS 'boost' (through reduced TD) that can persist through multiple casts for a fraction of the mana.

Sadly I think the spell implementation is super weak (it shouldn't require a warding check to reduce warding) and I only have 75 ranks in the 400 circle at present so it doesn't help me with my sentry '80% problem' at present.

But suppose for the sake of discussion that I spent my remaining spell ranks training on the 400 circle bringing my Minor Elt. up to 101 ranks.

Now my Minor Elt CS would be 535 (the same as my immolation cast CS). With the -25 penalty the sentry would receive against 413 when I cast it I would basically have a 100% chance to cast this spell on a sentry. With my current EMC training (200 ranks) and Fire Lore training (24 ranks) the sentry would now have a -22 warding penalty against my immolation spell for the next 1000 seconds (if I am reading the spell information correctly). So now my immolation cast is at ~100% chance to strike as well!

A near 100% solution with 2 casts if I decide to train in that direction. And less mana for both spells than the 40 point CS booster.

The additional downside to 413 being that I cannot pre-prep my 'booster' spell. I have to be in the room for both casts vs. other boosters that can be cast in safety (another reason to remove the warding check from 413 in my opinion).

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul." Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1437
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/26/2016 06:37 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>And so forth. Though it does look like "count on one hand" is more historically true before that. The last two days have been anomalous

I'm sure the last two days haven't been anomalous. Perhaps it would be useful to look back before people largely stopped playing their characters altogether for data (pre-SimuCon).

Whether people use it frequently or not, it is an accessible option to those spiritual pure classes. And spiritual TDs aren't balanced to compensate for these extra boosts, nor from 240 or 340, the way that elemental TDs already factor maxed out 425 into the equation.

>A near 100% solution with 2 casts if I decide to train in that direction. And less mana for both spells than the 40 point CS booster.

A pushdown is not a booster, particularly when you have to successfully ward the creature to receive the pushdown to begin with. And 340 does not cost 40 mana per use.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1438
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 01/26/2016 06:42 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


I think I read the spell wrong. The sentry would get a -19 ward penalty against my 413 cast due to my EMC training and then would have a -28 warding penalty (-25 plus and additional -3 due to my fire lore training) against my immolation spell. Pretty much the same result in my example but wanted to correct the numbers.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul." Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1439
Author: ZENDADA
Date: on 01/26/2016 06:47 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


412 Weapon Deflection with enough Earth Lore looks like a nice mass disabler that virtually has a 100% success rate.

Chad, player of a few

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1440
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 01/26/2016 06:48 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>> A pushdown is not a booster, particularly when you have to successfully ward the creature to receive the pushdown to begin with. And 340 does not cost 40 mana per use.

1) We are in agreement that the spell can be improved! Would the removal of the warding check on the initial cast address your available booster concerns? It would for me.

2) In my case it's pretty much the same if my warding success is 100%, no? +25 for me or -25 for them provides the same result on a single cast. The +25 scenario doesn't require that I identify my target beforehand though, which I would prefer. But in the end, it is still a booster.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul." Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1441
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/26/2016 06:50 PM PST
Subject: Pures as utility characters


It seems that the trend in the nerfs has been to preserve pre-cap wizard abilities as utility characters at the cost of losing more than necessary potential power at the post-cap level.

This doesn't exist for any of the other pures, so why is this the case for wizards?

Both clerics and empaths require the character to be present to receive lore-based benefits of group or other-cast 211, 215, 219, 117, 303, 307, and 310. Clerics and empaths obviously need to be present to raise and heal others.

Sorcerers require active hunting to access their ensorcell utility function.

Wizards don't have to be hunted at all to enchant, yet this results in having to pay the price of potential for item destruction and excessive temper times based on the large numbers of pocket enchanters that exist.

Wizards are mainly used as spell bots, as wizard spells have historically been sold off the shelf at nearly every merchant on a much larger scale than any other major spiritual or profession circle spells. Wizards can still be used as Rapid Fire bots outside warcamps without even stepping foot inside or being equivalent level.

Why can't wizard balancing first take into account those who actually play the profession instead of protecting the use of wizard abilities for all other classes?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1442
Author: GS4-FINROS
Date: on 01/26/2016 06:59 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>I'm sure the last two days haven't been anomalous. Perhaps it would be useful to look back before people largely stopped playing their characters altogether for data (pre-SimuCon).

Happily, as the one who actually has access to the data, I'm in a position to know what is anomalous and what isn't. The spell tends to be bimodal. It usually gets used less than 10 times per day (frequently less than 5), or gets used 30-40 times per day. Getting used 10-20 times per day is more rare than either of those circumstances. In either case, "handful of times per day" is a quite reasonable estimate.

Just for giggles, the number of casts of 506 is about the same this past week as it was before the changes. And well before potential changes were announced, for that matter.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1443
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 01/26/2016 07:03 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Out of mild curiosity, how many times per day is 413 cast on average vs. the other CS booster spells?

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul." Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1444
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/26/2016 07:09 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>1) We are in agreement that the spell can be improved! Would the removal of the warding check on the initial cast address your available booster concerns? It would for me.

The spell can certainly be improved, but then I worry that it would no longer be considered a "booster" and TDs would be adjusted across the board accordingly since it is a minor circle spell.

>2) In my case it's pretty much the same if my warding success is 100%, no? +25 for me or -25 for them provides the same result on a single cast. The +25 scenario doesn't require that I identify my target beforehand though, which I would prefer. But in the end, it is still a booster.

Even if it was still considered just a booster and not a must-have, it's still far more expensive than <6.5 mana per use of 340 for spiritualists. I'm not sure if you are aware that you can get 6+ charges per cast of 340, and that mana can be expended prior to the hunt.

I think we are not speaking on the same page regarding boosters etc and desired effects. To achieve parity in offensive capabilities, all pures need reliable (read: guaranteed at a sufficiently post-cap and enhanced level) crowd control and instant kill mechanisms. That is, effective panic buttons and boosters.

At the end of the day, few people wander into a room of post-cap creatures looking to take on a huge swarm at once. What all the other pures can do, and wizards used to be able to do, is sufficiently contain and finish off a swarm if it happens to emerge in your room of 1 creature before you have to abandon the fight and run off.

Wizards used to be able to kill quickly enough 515 and 0CT such that unexpected swarms aren't issues. Wizards used to be able to rely on 519 to either outright disable or significantly damage, if not outright kill, creatures.

Going back to your point above, 340 is not just a "booster", it is the panic button in combination with 316 or 135. 240 is the offensive combat booster and effectively guarantees an instant kill in combination with 1115 or 317.

Sorcerers have 717 and if all else fails, 720 when the task is to kill or be killed.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1445
Author: BHTM
Date: on 01/26/2016 07:10 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


I'd be curious to know what the least cast spell in the game is if you have that information? Or maybe the bottom 3.

-Richard/Fjalar.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1446
Author: DOUG
Date: on 01/26/2016 07:15 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>>The day that Methais graced your village was the most important day of your life. But for me, it was Tuesday.

Heh. Good cine-ref. Not mainstream, but still kitschy.

And yeah, I know what you did - even agreed. But it undermined the point, thanks. Think Wednesday, next.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1447
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/26/2016 07:16 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>2) In my case it's pretty much the same if my warding success is 100%, no? +25 for me or -25 for them provides the same result on a single cast. The +25 scenario doesn't require that I identify my target beforehand though, which I would prefer. But in the end, it is still a booster.

No, it is not the same at all. A pushdown is NOT a booster because it has a hard floor of -25. A booster on the other hand, can be stacked with other boosters and create sufficient enough warding margin such that the effects of being warded by a CS spell are dramatically increased. See 240, where the spirit slayer boosts are boosts on top of the boosted/enhanced base caster CS.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1448
Author: GS4-FINROS
Date: on 01/26/2016 07:18 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>Out of mild curiosity, how many times per day is 413 cast on average vs. the other CS booster spells?

413 is classified as an attack spell rather than a booster. In any case, usually only a few dozen times per day. Of all the attack spells used by wizards (and ignoring 525), 412, 915, and 409 are used by far the least with typically only a handful of casts per day.

Before anyone gets any ideas, I'm not about to launch into a spell-by-spell discussion of what gets used and doesn't get used. And also before anyone asks -- yes, this is also one of the things we consider when looking at spells that may need improvements.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1449
Author: DOUG
Date: on 01/26/2016 07:19 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>>I think we are not speaking on the same page regarding boosters etc and desired effects. To achieve parity in offensive capabilities, all pures need reliable (read: guaranteed at a sufficiently post-cap and enhanced level) crowd control and instant kill mechanisms. That is, effective panic buttons and boosters.

While I still don't agree with this, as theory does not equal practice and I'm very disinterested in 100% for shore anything in the lands (which as you noted simply gets adjusted until it's no longer 100% sure), I'm going to stop my responding to the belabored point, and ask a simple question.

What about Time Stop (950)?

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1450
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/26/2016 07:23 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>(which as you noted simply gets adjusted until it's no longer 100% sure)

No, this only happens for elementalists and 425. Creatures are absolutely not balanced around 240 or 340 being used on a regular basis, even though they are. Even if you choose not to hunt or equip/train yourself that way, does not mean the possibility should not exist for wizards as it does for every other pure.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1451
Author: DOUG
Date: on 01/26/2016 07:24 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


No.

Do'phion

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1452
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 01/26/2016 07:24 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


> I'd be curious to know what the least cast spell in the game is if you have that information? Or maybe the bottom 3.

Of spells that I classify as something that could be commonly cast, the bottom 3 spells all live in the Empath/Major Spiritual Circles.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1453
Author: DOUG
Date: on 01/26/2016 07:24 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


And, because I think it's both telling and funny. . .


. . .

. . .

. . .

waiting. . .


Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1454
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/26/2016 07:25 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>What about Time Stop (950)?

A 1-3x a day offensive spell of any kind is essentially useless or irrelevant when talking about sustainable combat.

Note that both 1150 and 350 are simply utility spells because a level 50 spell shouldn't impact something you actually have to do on a regular basis, instead of in a true emergency.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1455
Author: DOUG
Date: on 01/26/2016 07:28 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Thank you.

>>A 1-3x a day offensive spell of any kind is essentially useless or irrelevant when talking about sustainable combat.

I disagree. If 80% plus of the use cases are covered, that means we need something to deal with less than 20%. And if it does turn out to be 'no mistake, no miss, can't be stepped around', it will be more powerful than anything else available to any pure, in my view.

But, you do raise an excellent point about other high mana sustainable utilities. That might be something worth factoring for, too. Thanks for reminding me.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1457
Author: DOUG
Date: on 01/26/2016 07:29 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>>And if it does turn out to be 'no mistake, no miss, can't be stepped around', it will be more powerful than anything else available to any pure, in my view.

Err. . . let me amend that quickly before someone else points out cleric get out of jail free (while rescuing? NOT) card.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1458
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/26/2016 07:32 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>Err. . . let me amend that quickly before someone else points out cleric get out of jail free (while rescuing? NOT) card.

Kindly don't forget about that 76-88% effective 716 as illustrated in my other thread. Oh right, both of those are under level 20 spells. Why are we forfeiting our single level 50 spot to achieve the same or lesser functionality as any other pure again?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1459
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/26/2016 07:34 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>Of spells that I classify as something that could be commonly cast, the bottom 3 spells all live in the Empath/Major Spiritual Circles.

I wonder if this could possibly be because major spiritual spells are among the most protected in the lands and are rarely sold off the shelf like all of the other wizard spells of all circles? Or the fact that herbs and other empath wound cleanup exists to minimize the casting of certain healing spells.

This seems to be yet another case of punishing wizards with excessively punitive nerfs because of the prevalence of pocket mages while doing nothing but protecting and further encouraging the raising of pocket mages at the expense of post-cap power after the nerfing is done.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1460
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 01/26/2016 07:35 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


> I wonder if this could possibly be because major spiritual spells are among the most protected in the lands and are rarely sold off the shelf like all of the other wizard spells of all circles?

As much as I would like your reason to be the reason why this is true, it is not. It is because the spells simply aren't used.

> Or the fact that herbs and other empath wound cleanup exists to minimize the casting of certain healing spells.

Empathic healing spells are not anywhere near the bottom 3.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1461
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 01/26/2016 07:51 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>> I think we are not speaking on the same page regarding boosters etc and desired effects. To achieve parity in offensive capabilities, all pures need reliable (read: guaranteed at a sufficiently post-cap and enhanced level) crowd control and instant kill mechanisms. That is, effective panic buttons and boosters.

Okay. At least I see where some of the perspective difference are. Thanks for clarifying!

I guess where we disagree is that I see the current implementation of RapidFire as a panic button and booster where I guess you see it as... something else? That doesn't mean there isn't opportunity for improvement here though. Looking back at the list of group disablers I posted I would happily drop most of our group disablers in exchange for something with a bit more kick.

>> Wizards used to be able to rely on 519 to either outright disable or significantly damage, if not outright kill, creatures.

As someone who used immolation as a staple disabler spell prior to the changes, I honestly feel the spell is still able to disable effectively even with the reduced chance to kill. Agreed that it isn't what it once was as a primary hunting / killing spell.

So I think we all agree there are opportunities for improvement / enhancement of wizards at this point. A lot was taken away with very little given back. Two main hunting styles were pretty much trashed without any significant improvements or benefits to offset this. I'm disappointed on many levels as well even though I'm trying to keep an open mind about the changes. That said, let's identify what is working, what isn't working, and see what we can do to improve things. I think it is important that we are both accurate and specific in what we are saying isn't working if we expect to see any improvements made though.

And point taken on 340, I read up on the spell after you posted it didn't take 40 mana per use.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul." Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1462
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/26/2016 07:58 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>So I think we all agree there are opportunities for improvement / enhancement of wizards at this point. A lot was taken away with very little given back. Two main hunting styles were pretty much trashed without any significant improvements or benefits to offset this. I'm disappointed on many levels as well even though I'm trying to keep an open mind about the changes.

I agree with all of this. Particularly, the emphasis should be on preserving power ceilings at the post-cap level as much as possible, as is still the case with every other pure class, before protecting all the pocket mages and enchanters who don't even have to hunt anything dangerous to get by. When someone has 13m+ exp, they should be supremely powerful, not simply marginally more so than the 7.5m exp freshly capped or overtrained level 90 wizard.

The 515 cooldown, in particular, needs to be revisited at the post-cap and enhanced level. It's a severe nerf from the first nerf.

Please make the profession fun to play again at the post-cap level and not a more fun combat strategy to 515 some other pure and watch them demolish the room with cheaper and more effective spells instead.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1463
Author: PFLATS
Date: on 01/26/2016 08:02 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>Of spells that I classify as something that could be commonly cast, the bottom 3 spells all live in the Empath/Major Spiritual Circles.

Oooh, I like this game.

Hmmm, I'm gonna go with:

Cry for Help (1116) Frenzy (216) and uh... Single target Interference (212)

>Or the fact that herbs and other empath wound cleanup exists to minimize the casting of certain healing spells. I can't think of the last time my empath got a cleanup. They're harder to come by these days unless you're fastidious about stopping Troll's Blood when you come back to town.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1464
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/26/2016 08:07 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>Empathic healing spells are not anywhere near the bottom 3.

This is probably a fruitless discussion, but I would guess the lack of usage of many spells in other profession circles is due to the fact that the other 3 pures still rely on a handful of super boosted and enhanced CS spells to get the instant kill done. Most people hunt as quickly as possible.

The problem is that now wizards have been given more "flavor", yet all of the combined options still don't result in as effective a kill or hunt as any of the other pures can achieve at the post-cap level due to the limitations of attrition-based bolting vs. what excessive warding margin can achieve. The power disparity is now significant, while pre-nerf wizards used to be able to more or less accomplish the same thing in different ways.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1465
Author: AMMINAR
Date: on 01/26/2016 08:10 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Cry for Help (1116)
Frenzy (216)
and uh...
Single target Interference (212)

Those were my guesses, too! Although personally I use 212 more often than 217 (which is still not very often at all).

But I'm very surprised 330 didn't make the bottom 3.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1466
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/26/2016 08:11 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Again, the fact that many post-cap wizards see war maging as the least punitive option left to us is discouraging. The fact is, effective CS spells can be controlled, trained for, and enhanced to guarantee success for all other pures. Likewise, aimed shots are something that can be trained and controlled.

Random, attrition-based bolts and maneuver-based disablers both rely far too heavily on luck to be satisfactory to me post-cap. A post-cap wizard should have more control than ever over the effectiveness of their bolts and disablers, not still have to hope and pray, while none of the other pures has to do that for anything barring a fumble.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1467
Author: ROLFARD
Date: on 01/26/2016 08:27 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Untrammel, living spell, and empathy?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1468
Author: DOUG
Date: on 01/26/2016 09:16 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>>Please make the profession fun to play again at the post-cap level and not a more fun combat strategy to 515 some other pure and watch them demolish the room with cheaper and more effective spells instead.

While I don't agree with some of what I'm going to call (rightly or no) anecdotal information sharing - in particular the warmage is the least punitive post-cap path as declared by the masses of wizards (well post-cap, I can and do use either quite well, thank you) - I will say this:

I do absolutely agree with the motive behind the quoted plea. Fun is and should be one of the more enduring traits we should aspire to, at all levels.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1469
Author: DOUG
Date: on 01/26/2016 09:19 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


I'ma roll with

1) Untrammel, 2) Darkness (safe bet to freebie here) 3) Cry for Help

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1471
Author: FIREPHOENIX
Date: on 01/26/2016 10:12 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Uhm. It's an escape/emergency button, like you've posted and asked for or stated didn't exist.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1472
Author: BLACKKOBOLD2
Date: on 01/27/2016 06:13 AM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


I won't argue with you if you feel that rapid fire and immolate were overpowered. But your desire to see wizards get their comeuppance shouldn't override your ability to reason. You know this game has poor balance. It always has. Don't blame players and wish for other classes to receive poor balancing decisions that detract from the overall product. It's self-destructive.

The fact is they took what was previously a hunting staple and apparently turned it into an "emergency disabler" - of which we actually have many, last I checked? I don't see that immolate currently serves any purpose at all. If I wanted to knock something down and prevent it from attacking I can do that to everything in the area for less mana using any number of spells available to the wizard class. We didn't need a disabler. We did need a hunting staple to give me something other than firing off one bolt after another endlessly.

There must exist a balance between "so overpowered you never use anything else" and "so weak and costly that you never really use it." We're really starting to accumulate in that latter category!

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1473
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 01/27/2016 09:43 AM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>Heh. Good cine-ref. Not mainstream, but still kitschy

WAT

https://youtu.be/GlhOUyy4wbs

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1474
Author: RISHIB1
Date: on 01/27/2016 10:45 AM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


1) Cry for Help 2) Empathic Link (so infrequently used that everyone forgot it exists!) 3) Frenzy

Doug, Untrammel is a staple defensive spell that is casted in mana spellup if you have the requisite lore now. :) (dispel fodder)

I don't know that the comparisons to other pures are helping any here, except maybe the request for a one-time CS booster and/or Saturation no longer requiring a warding check?

Rishi - Player of Kembal


Speaking to Plur, Belnia says, "You're no Kembal."


[Roll result: -2112 (open d100: 82)] A giantman thief crouches and sweeps a leg at you, but only manages to trip himself.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1475
Author: PFLATS
Date: on 01/27/2016 02:20 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


I had Empathic Link on my list instead of Interference for a while, but it's such a cool (if frustrating to use) spell that I figure someone out there has to be using it to hunt. Right? Maybe?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1476
Author: DRAFIX
Date: on 01/27/2016 03:30 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


So, wonderful mechanics implementation team, now that all the complaints and the mood has died down to a dull grumble, has there been any consideration to adding evoke version of 515? Giving wizards the the 0 cast RT proc version when evoked, so that they can take advantage of the lore effects for non channeled spells (which is a lot of them).

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1477
Author: AMCPENS
Date: on 01/28/2016 08:43 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


I'd rather get a 1 second cast time, but with no cool down for 515. I also believe that 515 should be self cast. Why is wasn't to begin with is the mystery....

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1478
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 01/28/2016 09:17 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


I'll never understand any spell that isn't imbeddable but still castable on other players without requiring the caster to be present for it to stick.

If RF were to be made self cast though, I think it should only apply to combat spells. There's no harm in rapid fire utility spells being used by other classes.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1479
Author: DOUG
Date: on 01/28/2016 10:38 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>>I'll never understand any spell that isn't imbeddable but still castable on other players without requiring the caster to be present for it to stick.

Be careful what you ask for. There are quite a few that work beneficially this way. Let's not make it worse.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1480
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 01/28/2016 10:44 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>Be careful what you ask for. There are quite a few that work beneficially this way. Let's not make it worse.

Actually, there are none that are imbeddable but can be other-cast without lore excluding bard songs, which work differently altogether.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1481
Author: FIREPHOENIX
Date: on 01/28/2016 03:05 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


Yeah Rapid fire should be self cast. Give some of that back to Wizards. It seems like a no brainer.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1482
Author: SHAYD11
Date: on 01/28/2016 03:10 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


I agree with this too, like someone else posted Im not sure why it wasnt self cast from the beginning.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1483
Author: ROLFARD
Date: on 01/30/2016 11:29 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


Alright after spending some time hunting on my mage I am absolutely furious at how he's still faster than my sorcerer but not quite nearly as amazingly as fast as he once was. I demand we get our 0 rt back when casting bolts as it is the most tedious thing having any round time at all when casting spells. Can we seriously not get back to 0 rt at some other cost? I will offer meteor shower as an offering.

Secondly (because I know there's no way we're ever getting back to 0 rt) can we consider the 'flare' on 515 an extension on the uptime (since we just recently lost the ability to use enhancives to reduce cooldown as far as we initially could)? In a swarm you can keep it up because you'll have that chance for it to flare but as soon as the swarm ends, the duration will be able to catch up. Noone wants to see rapidfire fall in the midst of a crowd it was designed for.

Thirdly, this is working as intended (and look how neat it all works together!) but if we aren't going to change it to something else it would be nice if it happened more often or reliably:

501 You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Sleep... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a triton combatant. 

 CS: +494 - TD: +390 + CvA: +20 + d100: +80 == +204
 Warding failed!

A triton combatant's eyes roll up into her head as she slumps to the ground. Cast Roundtime 1 Second. >stance off You are now in an offensive stance. >prep 510 You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Hurl Boulder... Your spell is ready. > Your disk arrives, following you dutifully. > A triton combatant breathes quietly in her sleep, her small nostrils flaring periodically. >ch comb You channel at a triton combatant. A triton combatant is awakened by your attack! You hurl a large boulder at a triton combatant! 

 AS: +478 vs DS: +232 with AvD: +22 + d100 roll: +53 = +321
  ... and hit for 148 points of damage!
  Hard strike removes the right eye and a goodly bit of skull!

The triton combatant gurgles once and goes still, a wrathful look on her face. 

 Necrotic energy from your runestaff overflows into you! 

  You feel energized!

Cast Roundtime 1 Second. Roundtime: 3 sec.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1485
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 01/30/2016 01:53 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


Crusaders Crawlers Cerebralites Soul siphons Liches Sentries Water elementals Fetish masters (unsure) Sentries

These are some of the capped critters that that won't work on, either because they can't be slept and/or don't crit. Crawlers and cerebralites usually don't crit, cerebralites can't be slept. The rest it never works on.

I would list defenders too, but Nelemar 3rd floor is basically a level 100 kobold village, and OTF isn't a post cap area.

But...1 vs 1 fights were never really the topic in the first place.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1486
Author: ROLFARD
Date: on 01/30/2016 02:37 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


I would really like rapidfire to refresh on flare (like bubble flares refresh) so you can attempt to hold out against a big swarm but will lose the rapidfire when the fight slows.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1487
Author: BLACKKOBOLD2
Date: on 01/30/2016 02:45 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


InteresTing idea.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1488
Author: PCOFFEY77
Date: on 01/30/2016 03:09 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>I would really like rapidfire to refresh on flare (like bubble flares refresh) so you can attempt to hold out against a big swarm but will lose the rapidfire when the fight slows.

Definitely would be nice to have something to handle the swarming which tends to happen quite often at/near capped. All I can do right now is basically run or die. Even the 1 second RT makes all the difference in that life or death so the nerf does hurt, but I can also learn to deal with it and am learning slowly.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1489
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 02/05/2016 11:49 AM PST
Subject: 506-Celerity


I couldn't find the original thread to attach this too (seems like it should be in this folder though).

Does it make sense that alchemy grinding should be moved under the purview of 506-Celerity vs. 535-Haste? Thought I read somewhere that Celerity was for non-combat, thoughtful and deliberate actions which alchemy grinding seems to fall under. Today 535-Haste is what makes alchemy grinding faster.

Also, I have not tested this yet, but what about guild repetition tasks? I'm really dreading trying to complete x amount of repetitions in 60 seconds if Celerity doesn't help out with this. I recall that old haste used to be the only way to complete these tasks in the past (short of winning the lottery).

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul." Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1490
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 02/05/2016 11:55 AM PST
Subject: Re: 506-Celerity


>Also, I have not tested this yet, but what about guild repetition tasks? I'm really dreading trying to complete x amount of repetitions in 60 seconds if Celerity doesn't help out with this. I recall that old haste used to be the only way to complete these tasks in the past (short of winning the lottery).-- Robert

I also remember a time where I wouldn't attempt illusions work and the like without the Haste spell available. This definitely seems to be something to consider.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1491
Author: DRAFIX
Date: on 02/05/2016 11:58 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


Definitely would be nice to have something to handle the swarming which tends to happen quite often at/near capped. All I can do right now is basically run or die. Even the 1 second RT makes all the difference in that life or death so the nerf does hurt, but I can also learn to deal with it and am learning slowly.

Big swarm? 410. 518. ... 518 518 518 518.. done.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1492
Author: DOUG
Date: on 02/05/2016 12:03 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


I'm sure you can take out a big swarm in less than 100 mana, Draf.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1493
Author: BLACKKOBOLD2
Date: on 02/05/2016 01:47 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


It's hard to beat cone for taking out swarms. Although, at cap that plan often falls a bit short. Try that in a room with a lich, a destroyer, a cerebralite, a fetish master, and a soul siphon. The destroyer is immune to 410, the master and lich will likely fall down, but due to their runestaff DS your cone of elements will miss. So you'll obliterate the soul siphon and cerebralite, but the destroyer will just keep tackling and forcing you into offensive and the lich and master are probably waiting out the remainder of a fairly short RT from e-wave before they unleash spikethorn and major e-wave on you.

Better to lead with call wind and then cone. The cone will stun the cerebralite and siphon regardless, even though call wind will likely miss the siphon. You should be able to hit the lich/master with the cone due to the stance-forcing effect of call wind. If the destroyer tackles you at this point, at least you have some time before the lich and master can cast. That assumes that the lich doesn't EBP or 540 the cone (probably happens nearly 1/3 of the time!) and that the initial cast of call wind hits. If you do miss, your best bet is to bail out before you get dead. Standing in front of liches and trusting to luck rarely works out in your favor!

Of course, you know how to hunt the scatter. I'm only illustrating the point that handling swarms as a wizard isn't always as simple as all that. Since wizards were poorly compensated defensively, it's more important than ever that we minimize the number of combat rolls we leave to chance. In the example above, leading with ewave rather than call wind presents a great deal more risk. Knowing which spell to use and when will make hunting go a lot more smoothly.

I would also remind wizards of the new tremor TAP/STOMP mechanics. Think about where a 0 RT knockdown could play well with your usual strategies. You should be able to find frequent use for this effect.

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1494
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 02/05/2016 04:36 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


I've said it before, but I don't understand why Haste was nerfed after splitting it in half and moving part of it from a level 6 slot to a level 35 spell slot. As Taverkin said, nothing else was given to compensate for the reduced effectiveness of the defensive benefit of Haste, let alone the hit to BOTH Immolate and Rapid Fire. Instead, Wizards lost a 35th level spell slot and had a drastically reduced floor on their defensive combat RT.

That seems a bit punitive.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1495
Author: BLACKKOBOLD2
Date: on 02/05/2016 08:08 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


I wonder if it's coincidence all of the things I've been using the heck out of (rapid fire, haste, enhancives) are all getting the nerf bat? It's almost like someone was listening, but decided to shoot the messenger for having too much fun!

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1496
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 02/05/2016 08:28 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>> As Taverkin said, nothing else was given to compensate for the reduced effectiveness of the defensive benefit of Haste,

It does stack for four hours now vs. having a 60 second non-refreshable duration.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul." Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1497
Author: THROGG
Date: on 02/05/2016 09:51 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>>It does stack for four hours now vs. having a 60 second non-refreshable duration.<<

For 35 mana a shot it had better stack; it should also sing "America the Beautiful" while tap dancing with a top hat and cane.

I was pretty much perma hasted with the old spell. I had a script that every 45 seconds would "stop 506\rincant 506\r".

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1498
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 02/06/2016 05:18 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>> For 35 mana a shot it had better stack; it should also sing "America the Beautiful" while tap dancing with a top hat and cane.

How about "Elanthia the Beautiful" instead? :p

>> I was pretty much perma hasted with the old spell. I had a script that every 45 seconds would "stop 506\rincant 506\r".

So before you were spending 80 mana every 10 minutes during your hunt and now you are spending 35 mana while sitting around in town for somewhere between 20 minutes to nearly 2 hours of haste (mileage will vary by training) yet you seem incredulous at the mana cost? This doesn't seem to be a very compelling argument for change or for the addition of a musical score as you have suggested.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul." Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1499
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 02/06/2016 06:24 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>This doesn't seem to be a very compelling argument for change or for the addition of a musical score as you have suggested.

Yeah, we should probably stick to the fact that the old haste was mechanically superior and didn't take up 2 spell slots, one of them being 35th level. That, and everyone else getting a free bastardized version of Haste in the form of Quickstrike.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1500
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 02/06/2016 07:03 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>> Yeah, we should probably stick to the fact that the old haste was mechanically superior and didn't take up 2 spell slots, one of them being 35th level.

Agreed. As well as acknowledging all of the changes (the good and the bad) and making logical arguments for why additional changes are needed.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul." Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1501
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 02/06/2016 08:46 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


The logic has been pretty well spelled out in this case. People can keep hammering the point home, but beyond that, pointing at the obvious with both hands instead of one doesn't seem to be making much of a difference.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1502
Author: DOUG
Date: on 02/06/2016 09:56 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>>doesn't seem to be making much of a difference

We don't know that, for all we know the GMs might be trying to get through this festival and then plan to take a look.

Despite my dissatisfaction with a couple of things that have occurred, I'm still fairly sure that:

1) There was a plan; 2) That plan was adjusted; 3) Feedback is still being considered, and; 4) We haven't exactly covered ourselves in glory encouraging real-time conscious-stream thought sharing.

So, we wait.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1503
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 02/06/2016 10:08 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


I don't think trying to stifle conversation is the way to go either, but hey, everyone's entitled to their opinion. Some just appear to be trying to stop others from sharing theirs.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1504
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 02/06/2016 10:09 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


> 4) We haven't exactly covered ourselves in glory encouraging real-time conscious-stream thought sharing.

I can only speak for myself, but I can say that I am not avoiding interaction because of any anger/irritation/frustration that might be directed towards me if I were to interact. I am more than willing to receive criticism regardless of how harsh it might be.

I'm not interacting because: 1) The stuff that I'm working on right now isn't ready to share. 2) A lot of the things being discussed right now aren't things that can be easily commented on. Questions like "What are your plans?", "Is this going to change?", and "Don't you agree this is broken?" aren't things I can discuss.

All I can do is assure you that I'm reading everything that is being said.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1505
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 02/06/2016 10:12 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>> I am more than willing to receive criticism regardless of how harsh it might be.

You really should water your lawn more.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul." Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1506
Author: ZENDADA
Date: on 02/06/2016 10:24 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>> I am more than willing to receive criticism regardless of how harsh it might be.

You water your lawn too often.

Chad, player of a few

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1507
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 02/06/2016 10:24 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>All I can do is assure you that I'm reading everything that is being said.

Thank you for this acknowledgment.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1508
Author: BLACKKOBOLD2
Date: on 02/06/2016 10:35 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


Pro Tip: While releasing specifics far in advance isn't recommended, popping in to let us know that you are planning to address an issue in the near future is advised - we call that "communication." In the absence of communication, expect players to assume whatever they like. And good luck with that!

I get that nobody wants to admit when their pet project doesn't receive quite the warm welcome they were hoping for. But the feeling I get from the little communication we have received is that the devs feel the ELR was a success and the complaints are from a vocal minority with a penchant for hyperbole. If that isn't the message you intended to convey, perhaps stopping in and discussing where we're going next would be prudent at this point? I know I can't be the only one left wondering: Is this it?

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1509
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 02/06/2016 10:40 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>I get that nobody wants to admit when their pet project doesn't receive quite the warm welcome they were hoping for.

I think he's still a little hurt over the reception of exploding animates :) I wouldn't call the 506/515 changes a pet project for the staff, it was in the works for a long time and was likely handed down from above.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1510
Author: DOUG
Date: on 02/06/2016 10:41 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>> If that isn't the message you intended to convey, perhaps stopping in and discussing where we're going next would be prudent at this point?

I think one did, Tav. In fact, I deleted a couple of responses because they served no purpose after the lawn-watering debate.

You did see it, right?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1511
Author: BLACKKOBOLD2
Date: on 02/06/2016 10:48 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


<1) The stuff that I'm working on right now isn't ready to share. <2) A lot of the things being discussed right now aren't things that can be easily commented on. Questions like "What are your plans?", "Is this going to change?", and "Don't you agree this is

While I can certainly understand the tough position you find yourself in, I'm afraid I must remain unreasonable: I'm looking for acknowledgment of the issues we're discussing here and a commitment to addressing them.

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1512
Author: DOUG
Date: on 02/06/2016 10:54 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>>I don't think trying to stifle conversation is the way to go either

I respect that opinion, and hold it dearly myself.

>>So, we wait.

A statement of fact - unless your opinion is we're not waiting to hear more?

>>Some just appear to be trying to stop others from sharing theirs.

Indeed.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1513
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 02/06/2016 10:54 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>I'm afraid I must remain unreasonable: I'm looking for acknowledgment of the issues we're discussing here and a commitment to addressing them.


... seriously?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1514
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 02/06/2016 11:02 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>While I can certainly understand the tough position you find yourself in, I'm afraid I must remain unreasonable: I'm looking for acknowledgment of the issues we're discussing here and a commitment to addressing them.

This line is unproductive at this point given it's been explicitly stated that these things cannot be discussed under the terms of their NDA, which I respect. Even though I think whoever included such onerous restrictions doesn't understand the impact of poor communication on player morale and customer retention, I don't blame the GMs for it. That blame lies solely with Simu management.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1515
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 02/06/2016 11:07 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>>> I am more than willing to receive criticism regardless of how harsh it might be.

You should water your lawn with Brawndo.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1516
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 02/06/2016 11:13 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


I have changed my opinion based on Methais persuasive counterpoint.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tbxq0IDqD04

You really should water your lawn more with Brawndo.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul." Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1517
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 02/06/2016 12:30 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


> While I can certainly understand the tough position you find yourself in, I'm afraid I must remain unreasonable: I'm looking for acknowledgment of the issues we're discussing here and a commitment to addressing them.

I understand your point, but unfortunately I can't help you out with what you're looking for right now.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1518
Author: BLACKKOBOLD2
Date: on 02/06/2016 03:08 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


I know. Like I said, I must remain unreasonable. It's not a position I enjoy taking. Frankly, I'd rather be playing GS. But I'm just too disappointed in the current state of the only class I play to justify paying or playing.

I'll hang out for a bit longer and keep an eye on the forums in case something changes. And in the mean time, back to guild wars and other games. If I do come back, it'll be with some fresh game design perspectives. Based on the ELR, I think you guys could use some.

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1519
Author: CAPTAINVIOLETBEARD
Date: on 02/06/2016 07:17 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


I'm so excited to see the awesome new wizard class that I cancelled my wizard account and am waiting eagerly for it as well (probobly for a few years).

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1520
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 02/07/2016 09:09 PM PST
Subject: Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!


The focusing effect does not ramp up correctly on misses due to the barrier effect of 401/406/414:

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Hurl Boulder... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a glistening cerebralite. You hurl a large boulder at a glistening cerebralite! A heavy barrier of stone momentarily forms around a glistening cerebralite and blocks the attack! Cast Roundtime 1 Second.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1521
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 02/09/2016 12:12 PM PST
Subject: Re: ELR - ELEMENTAL FOCUS UPDATE!


>The focusing effect does not ramp up correctly on misses due to the barrier effect of 401/406/414

This issue has happened at least 3 times, though I'm not sure if it's a cerebralite specific issue. If the barrier flares on the 2nd bolt cast, the third only has the focusing effect of the 2nd cast applied.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1522
Author: PC1234
Date: on 02/10/2016 12:56 AM PST
Subject: 513 Bug


The character was fighting a single horned vor'taz, no other horned vor'taz entered the room during that time. Please notice how the AS Bonus from 513 was at the maximum, disappeared, and then reappeared.

(You should also notice how 2/4 of the channeled bolt spells hit the hands, and the damage in general is very poor.)


You hurl a hissing stream of acid at a horned vor'taz! 

 AS: +316 vs DS: +224 with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +45 = +166
  ... and hit for 24 points of damage!
  Acid gets on the right hand raising some large blisters.

Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. Roundtime: 3 sec. R> The swarm assaults you from all sides, its droning creating a noisy distraction. R> >incant 904 Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Acid... Your spell is ready. You channel at a horned vor'taz. You hurl a hissing stream of acid at a horned vor'taz! 

 AS: +301 vs DS: +224 with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +13 = +119
  ... and hit for 6 points of damage!
  Acid splattered on the horned vor'taz's chest!  Might leave a stain!

Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. Roundtime: 3 sec. R> A horned vor'taz horn glows bright, and he motions to you! You hear strange noises come from behind and to either side of you. R> >incant 904 Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Acid... Your spell is ready. You channel at a horned vor'taz. You hurl a hissing stream of acid at a horned vor'taz! 

 AS: +301 vs DS: +221 with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +5 = +114
  ... and hit for 4 points of damage!
  Splash to the hand hardly touches the horned vor'taz.

Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. Roundtime: 3 sec. R> The swarm darts forward and quickly retreats, drawing your attention. R> A horned vor'taz charges at you! 

 AS: +284 vs DS: +275 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +48 = +83
  A clean miss.

R> >incant 904 Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Acid... Your spell is ready. You channel at a horned vor'taz. You hurl a hissing stream of acid at a horned vor'taz! 

 AS: +316 vs DS: +217 with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +58 = +186
  ... and hit for 37 points of damage!
  Acid gets in eye.  An unscheduled flush!
  The horned vor'taz is stunned!

Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. Roundtime: 3 sec.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1523
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 02/10/2016 01:01 AM PST
Subject: Re: 513 Bug


The focusing effect also does not ramp up on misses from the 414 barrier flaring or on wall of thorns. So something about magical attacks seems to be preventing it from working correctly.

Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Water... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a Grimswarm troll hunter. The thorny barrier surrounding the troll hunter blocks your attack! Cast Roundtime 1 Second.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1524
Author: CAVEMANIAC
Date: on 02/10/2016 02:03 AM PST
Subject: Re: 513 Bug


Call swarm might be the cause here. It has various status effects that are controlled by stance initially and occur randomly afterwards(Knockdown, damage, -AS, -DS, poison/disease, RT). Directly before the AS loss you were hit by this attack:

>The swarm assaults you from all sides, its droning creating a noisy distraction.

Your AS returned when the swarm switched to another attack:

>The swarm darts forward and quickly retreats, drawing your attention.

You didn't post what your DS was at the beginning of the encounter but I would bet your DS was lowered after the last attack

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1525
Author: PC1234
Date: on 02/10/2016 02:26 AM PST
Subject: 535 Bug


I was at 17 ranks of EL:A, I then trained EL:A to 20 ranks, and now 535 clashes with itself.


>spell active

You currently have the following active spells: Spirit Warding I ................... 0:06:57 Spirit Warding II .................. 0:07:00 Elemental Defense I ................ 3:22:00 Elemental Defense II ............... 2:54:18 Elemental Defense III .............. 2:54:18 Elemental Targeting ................ 0:39:18 Elemental Barrier .................. 0:39:18 Thurfel's Ward ..................... 2:49:18 Elemental Deflection ............... 1:09:18 Elemental Bias ..................... 1:09:18 Strength ........................... 2:49:18 Elemental Focus .................... 1:09:18 Stone Skin ......................... 1:09:18 Haste .............................. 0:09:18 Temporal Reversion ................. 1:09:18 Natural Colors ..................... 2:38:38 Resist Elements .................... 0:14:04 Mobility ........................... 0:14:07 Prismatic Guard .................... 0:48:49 Mass Blur .......................... 0:50:18 Melgorehn's Aura ................... 0:50:18


>incant 535 J> You recite a series of mystical phrases while raising your hands, invoking Haste... Your spell is ready. You gesture. Your magic clashes with that which is already there! Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. J>

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1526
Author: PC1234
Date: on 02/10/2016 02:29 AM PST
Subject: Re: 513 Bug


Call swarm might be the cause here. It has various status effects that are controlled by stance initially and occur randomly afterwards(Knockdown, damage, -AS, -DS, poison/disease, RT). Directly before the AS loss you were hit by this attack:
>The swarm assaults you from all sides, its droning creating a noisy distraction.
Your AS returned when the swarm switched to another attack:
>The swarm darts forward and quickly retreats, drawing your attention.
You didn't post what your DS was at the beginning of the encounter but I would bet your DS was lowered after the last attack

This may have been the problem, thanks for pointing that out. I wasn't aware they can do that.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1527
Author: ZENDADA
Date: on 02/10/2016 03:41 AM PST
Subject: Re: 535 Bug


Was it running before you trained then you tried to cast after? My guess is that is what is causing that to happen. Try stopping 535 and recasting.

Chad, player of a few

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1528
Author: PC1234
Date: on 02/10/2016 04:26 AM PST
Subject: Re: 535 Bug


Was it running before you trained then you tried to cast after? My guess is that is what is causing that to happen. Try stopping 535 and recasting.
Chad, player of a few

It was, and I did, but it probably still shouldn't happen.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1529
Author: GS4-FINROS
Date: on 02/10/2016 07:36 PM PST
Subject: Re: 535 Bug


>I was at 17 ranks of EL:A, I then trained EL:A to 20 ranks, and now 535 clashes with itself.

Magnitude mismatch. The spell doesn't "realize" that you improved your own ranks, as opposed to trying to cheat your way to a greater duration of greater magnitude, or something. STOP and recast when that happens. I may also make it more elegant at some point.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1530
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 02/10/2016 07:43 PM PST
Subject: Re: 535 Bug


>Magnitude mismatch. The spell doesn't "realize" that you improved your own ranks, as opposed to trying to cheat your way to a greater duration of greater magnitude, or something. STOP and recast when that happens. I may also make it more elegant at some point.

I'm sorry, but what? Do you realize that the updated Major Elemental spells are literally the only buffs in the game the don't allow for the use of enhancives to increase the benefits upfront? I don't see how this is "cheating" your way to a greater duration of greater magnitude when this concept applies to literally every lore-based spell.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1531
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 02/10/2016 07:49 PM PST
Subject: Re: 535 Bug


Improving duration or magnitude of skills and spells is literally the definition of an enhancive. This kind of design inconsistency and anti-wizard/elementalist bias is utterly maddening.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1532
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 02/11/2016 06:47 AM PST
Subject: Re: 535 Bug


I think what he's saying is similar to how spells like 425 work...if your stats/skills change to where the benefit increases, the spell needs to be recast for it to take effect.

For whatever reason, Haste requires the spell to be stopped and recast as opposed to just casting it again.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1533
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 02/11/2016 10:49 AM PST
Subject: Re: 535 Bug


>I think what he's saying is similar to how spells like 425 work...if your stats/skills change to where the benefit increases, the spell needs to be recast for it to take effect.

I find the wording implying that we're somehow "cheating our way to effects of greater magnitude" to be offensive. That is literally the definition of an enhancive and what applies to any other lore-based spell. There is no other possible interpretation to "improving your own ranks" or "cheating or something".

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1534
Author: DOUG
Date: on 02/11/2016 11:50 AM PST
Subject: Re: 535 Bug


>> That is literally the definition of an enhancive and what applies to any other lore-based spell. There is no other possible interpretation to "improving your own ranks" or "cheating or something".

I didn't find it offensive (unforunate, yes) but the reason why I didn't is exactly because we openly discuss when to have enhancives active and when to remove them to gain benefits based on other in-game systems' restrictions that probably aren't intended.

Example, Aura and the Rift.

So, offended or not, I can't see how we could declare it not to be 'cheating or something' in some cases. As such, a GM needs to be mindful of it. Wording aside, it's accurate in my view.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1535
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 02/11/2016 01:06 PM PST
Subject: Re: 535 Bug


>I can't see how we could declare it not to be 'cheating or something' in some cases.

It's not cheating because every lore-based spell other than the updated Major Elemental ones (513, 515, 535) do not function in this manner. This is inconsistent game design that again penalizes wizards over everyone else.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1536
Author: DOUG
Date: on 02/11/2016 03:41 PM PST
Subject: Re: 535 Bug


>>This is inconsistent game design

This point is fine if true. But. . .

>>that again penalizes wizards over everyone else

this feels to me like histrionics.

513 has long behaved this way - if one trains and the spell's active, one stops it and recasts it to get the training benefit. Keep in mind this spell's been around since before enhancives and the ensuing 'benefit' and discussion.

Heroism used to do the same thing. It might have been fixed, it might not - don't know.

Is it 'cheating' to have enhancives to take one to 50 ranks of lore, cast a spell, then swap them out so that one can wear another 50 ranks of AS to cast with? Yeah - I'd say that is a contravention of system design. Just like my other example. I can't authoritatively declare it so.

But I do know that if it is, the place to address it would be the enhancive system, not the spell system. And I'm half expecting the enhancive 2.0 to lead to 'cool-down' periods of some sort just to stop this very behavior. I hope that a more elegant solution can be found.

"Cheating"? I'd say it might be if one is using the 'wear time' of the spell to override the restriction of needing to actually be wearing the enhancive, consistently over time. Cheating is the continual application of contravening 'rules'. But that's just me. I do agree, though, that it should be evenly applied to all professions. Maybe even ;TotalSolution style.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1537
Author: AMMINAR
Date: on 02/11/2016 04:11 PM PST
Subject: Re: 535 Bug


>It's not cheating because every lore-based spell other than the updated Major Elemental ones (513, 515, 535) do not function in this manner. This is inconsistent game design that again penalizes wizards over everyone else.

You were just posting here a couple days ago about spells that function in exactly this manner. You were having problems with 104, 105, 107, 314, because of this feature.

To clarify, I think the 'cheating' that's being referenced here is (1) wear enhancive, (2) cast spell that benefits from enhancive, (3) remove enhancive, (4) continue refreshing spell in its strengthened form forever (until you die, I guess). Then you virtually never have to use charges on your enhancive. Every refreshable spell I'm aware of has some mechanism of dealing with this, though not always the same (compare the special blue motes of 107 to the "your spell misfires" of 104).

As Finros acknowledged, the mismatch test here is imperfect in how it misfires when you've increased (rather than decreased) ranks in EL:Air. But consider how mismatch is dealt with for, say, increases in spell ranks in 102, 120, 202, and the like. When you gain ranks in these, and you refresh the spell, it refreshes it in its INFERIOR form. I went a number of levels at one point without benefiting from increased DS from these spells, because I kept refreshing them and they kept refreshing in inferior form. Maybe it's better to get this warning that you need to stop and recast the spell when your skills increase. (Would probably be even better for ALL of these spells to refresh with your strengthened skills, or at least automatically restart with a fresh cast like 313 does.)

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1538
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 02/11/2016 04:30 PM PST
Subject: Re: 535 Bug


>You were just posting here a couple days ago about spells that function in exactly this manner. You were having problems with 104, 105, 107, 314, because of this feature.

Actually, I wasn't. That was your continued and erroneous assumption.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1539
Author: AMMINAR
Date: on 02/11/2016 08:04 PM PST
Subject: Re: 535 Bug


>Actually, I wasn't. That was your continued and erroneous assumption.

Mind telling the rest of us what was going on, then?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1540
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 02/12/2016 07:21 AM PST
Subject: Re: 535 Bug


>I didn't find it offensive (unforunate, yes) but the reason why I didn't is exactly because we openly discuss when to have enhancives active and when to remove them to gain benefits based on other in-game systems' restrictions that probably aren't intended.

>Example, Aura and the Rift.

If game mechanics support it and it's not against policy, it's not cheating. As far as I'm aware, nobody's ever been tagged for mechanics abuse over it. Plus if Simu saw this as cheating, I'm sure they could fix it fairly easily.

I think an oversight in game design would be a more accurate term.


~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1541
Author: DOUG
Date: on 02/12/2016 09:47 AM PST
Subject: Re: 535 Bug


>>I think an oversight in game design would be a more accurate term.

Potato, tomato. Or something like that. ;)

I'm good with oversight in game design! Let's openly declare it as such and suggest that the players are willing to self-police and not ab/use this particular oversight until it can be corrected. How far will that take us?

After all, this game is exactly what we the players make of it, through deed and action.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1542
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 02/12/2016 09:53 AM PST
Subject: Re: 535 Bug


>How far will that take us?

About as far as this: http://imgur.com/gallery/5KXWggM

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1543
Author: DRAFIX
Date: on 02/12/2016 12:57 PM PST
Subject: Re: 535 Bug


Let me propose a scenario: I use enhancives, cast to 4 hours.
Now without putting on the enhancives again, I cannot extend the duration. I think that is what he's talking about.
Of course this is not how all the other spells work in the game. Not that it really matters in the end, even if you could extend the duration with higher benefits, it would only last till you died or forgot to upkeep the spell or got dispelled. All of those conditions do happen often enough to make it not feasible anyways and the enhancive charges you could have saved would be minuscule given the chance of draining a charge is rather low.
Overall it is just another inconvenience, another tedium.



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1544
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 02/12/2016 01:26 PM PST
Subject: Re: 535 Bug


>Overall it is just another inconvenience, another tedium.

It's cool bro, we have mana leech.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1545
Author: RAGGLER
Date: on 02/13/2016 09:09 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


After using the new 515 now for nearly a month, I wanted to suggest a change that would bring this spell to a place of compromise. I believe the general consensus among the player base is that the cooldown should be removed because the addition of a 1 second RT was enough to lower the power of the spell. We're also seeing that 515 has a tendency to become unreliable when it falls at the wrong time in combat, essentially leaving a wizard in a tight spot, especially against powerful capped foes. Even at 3x harness and 2x EMC, I'm finding it very unattractive to activate 515 during the cooldown. The added mana penality is definitely effective in making you not want to do it.

I agree that removing the air lore benefit of occasionally casting a spell at zero RT was the right thing to do. It only encouraged mindless keyboard spamming. However, the new air lore benefit of occasionally channeling a spell is unfortunately even worse in my opinion. Currently, I'm not even seeing real hard evidence that channeling bolts is something I'm ever going to want to do. Maybe it's just decades of never being in hard RT that I need to let go of, but I'm also not seeing the results of channeling that I think most of us would want to see. The true downfall of channeling though, is that is basically has zero effect against non critable foes. Too many critters are immune to being crit killed for channeling to ever be a staple in capped hunting. I have to admit that it hurts hunting the confluence and seeing rapidfire's zero second channel flaring, and knowing that it isn't helping me at all.

What I would suggest to balance some of the concerns of 515 is removing the channel perk and adding something like this.

Training in Elemental Lore, Air has a seed 5 summation chance of renewing rapidfire for (seed 10 summation/2(rounded down))seconds on every cast of a spell.

Example a wizard with 35 air lore ranks has a 05% chance of renewing rapidfire for 1 second Example a wizard with 108 air lore ranks has a 10% chance of renewing rapidfire for 4 seconds Example a wizard with 202 air lore ranks has a 16% chance of renewing rapidfire for 6 seconds

Lets use the example of a wizard with 108 air lore ranks. Lets say they are standing in the middle of a large swarm where targets were not an issue. If they cast 60 spells in the 60 seconds of rapidfire, which honestly isn't happening, but lets just say they did, they would see, on average over time, rapidfire flaring 6 times, adding a total of 24 seconds to the length of the spell. In that additional 24 seconds, rapidfire will flare another 2 times, adding 8 seconds, and then possibly once more again, adding 4 seconds, for a total of 36 seconds to rapidfire's length on average. You would only see the addition of 36 seconds if you were standing in that huge swarm, casting a spell once a second on the second. This would be hugely beneficial in keeping rapidfire from falling during a swarm, when you really don't want the spell to fall. However, the second the swarm is finished, by the time you pick up your treasure and head out to find more critters, your added time to rapidfire will expire and you'll be on cooldown, just like normal. Effective when surrounded with targets and at your most vulnerable, less so when facing a critter at a time and moving around a hunting ground.


Isle Snack Muncher

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1547
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 02/14/2016 04:33 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


Just remove the cooldown and call it a day. We're still going to be limited by mana even at 3x HP, and the current "benefit" of CHANNELing bolts is like a sick joke combined with a big slap in the face with a salty cheese grater dipped in broken glass, and that's against crittable stuff. Against non-crittable stuff, it's completely useless. It literally serves zero purpose, just like the RF CHANNEL proc when casting spells that can't be channeled.

It's all such short sighted and uncreative game design, and I can't fathom how anyone involved in it that has any real experience playing a capped wizard could be brainstorming, come up with this stuff, and be like, "Sounds good to me, let's do it!" while keeping a straight face and not feeling like Gomer Pyle during the jelly donut scene on FMJ.

I don't mean that as an insult (glances at Aulis), but more along the lines of "I'm not mad at you, I'm disappointed in you."

This whole thing with all 3 spells has all been such an incredible disappointment and has to be ranked as one of the biggest blunders in GS history, right up there with GP2 sorcerers.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1548
Author: RROY
Date: on 02/14/2016 03:31 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


Personally I dislike the 1 sec per cast and would gladly trade an even harsher cooldown for that, but still find RF useful as is now.

Saying that the changes were the biggest blunder in GS history is a bit of a stretch though, I can think of many major blunders way back in the day. Leaving things the way they were wasn't good game design. Common using RF and 901, or just Immolate Immolate Immolate, that's boring stuff there.


At least the RF cooldown penalty makes using harder bolts more likely 910 at a cost of 5 extra a lot more appealing than 901 at 5 extra. Same holds true for the other bolts.

According to the GMs the nerfs were directed from above, not by the Dev team.

There's a few people whom are dissatisfied with the changes, but there are many more whom are pleased with many of the other benefits that came our way. 502 I use almost every critter, cone of elements fantastic! and etc...

I doubt if the original idea was for people to build in such a way that they are using 1 single spell as their attack, and now we have taken a few more steps towards using more spells. Currently using 502, 505, 904, 518 All on a regular basis each hunt.... Just an elf about town...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1549
Author: LALAKERCLAN
Date: on 02/14/2016 05:55 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


>Saying that the changes were the biggest blunder in GS history is a bit of a stretch though, I can think of many major blunders way back in the day. Leaving things the way they were wasn't good game design. Common using RF and 901, or just Immolate Immolate Immolate, that's boring stuff there.

I personally cackled with glee every time 519 1-shot something. It was fun. It made my wizard feel powerful. To each their own.

> According to the GMs the nerfs were directed from above, not by the Dev team.

The biggest problem I have with this whole fiasco (aside from the fact that I now play my sorcerer almost exclusively) is that there did not appear to me to be any rhyme or reason with the timing. Why change something that was part of the game of literally decades NOW, particularly if the Dev team wasn't ready to come up with solutions/compensatory changes that made the wizard class more fun in other ways?

Nerf first, come up with buffs later = bad, bad, bad plan.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1550
Author: ROLFARD
Date: on 02/14/2016 06:44 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


Just remove the cooldown (on 515) for natural wizards. It exists for 506 so why not for a higher level greater expense spell. Leave the cooldowns for sharing at the existing rates.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1552
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 02/15/2016 04:26 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Updated!


> Leaving things the way they were wasn't good game design.

Know what's even worse game design? Nerfing everything while having zero fixes in place to address the problems the nerfs caused.

>Common using RF and 901, or just Immolate Immolate Immolate, that's boring stuff there

According to who, you? Gee, I guess I've been playing my wizard wrong all these years because I was actually having ridiculous amounts of fun with pre-nerf wizards.

Maybe taking forever to kill something and barely naming it out alive is your idea of fun, but for most people, not so much. You must be having boatloads of fun now though, right?

And yes I know the changes came from above. So did "let's make everything about microtransactions" and "let's use all the GS revenue to fund other stuff like the illustrious smashing success that was the super innovative and definitely doesn't look like a PS2 game Dragons of Elanthia," along with most other questionable game design decisions that happen. I'll just bite my tongue and say that it's quite a shame.

Just out of curiosity, what level is your wizard?

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1553
Author: DRUMPEL
Date: on 02/15/2016 09:29 AM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Was tasked to take out a mean old magus so while I was tracking it down I decided to see if EVOKE method of Immolation would be useful at all in my arsenal. I set my INCANT to EVOKE 519.

>incant set
INCANT CHANNEL Spells:
- None
INCANT EVOKE Spells:
- 909: Tremors
- 519: Immolation
INCANT OPEN Spells:
- None

I used the spell at first by PREP 519 and then EVOKE {target}. It seemed to work as intended. The magus I used it on and the several warriors I used it on, they dropped and rolled around trying to put the fire out. Since I had my INCANT set to EVOKE, I just started using INCANT 519 and the results seemed different. I didn't get my targets to roll around, they just ran off (warriors) or stood there, got a minor stun or two and then proceeded to prep a spell or stand up.

Here's the last magus I used my INCANT 519 on:

>incant 519
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a minotaur magus.
CS: +411 - TD: +332 + CvA: +9 + d100: +73 == +161
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a minotaur magus and he bursts into flame causing 21 points of damage!
... 20 points of damage!
Nasty burns to right hand. Gonna need lots of butter.
The minotaur magus is stunned!
... 20 points of damage!
Nasty burns to chest make you wish you never heard of heartburn.
... 5 points of damage!
Minor burns to chest. That hurts a bit.
The flames around a minotaur magus continue to burn!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
(Forcing stance down to guarded)
>stance off
You are now in an offensive stance.
The flames surrounding a minotaur magus flare up violently...
... 15 points of damage!
Burst of flames char chest a crispy black.
The minotaur magus is stunned!
The flames around a minotaur magus continue to burn!

(here 3 seconds has passed, I went to cast 415 just to try and knock the magus down)

>incant 415
You trace a simple rune while intoning the mystical phrase for Elemental Strike...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a minotaur magus.
CS: +397 - TD: +330 + CvA: +9 + d100: +34 == +110
Warding failed!
You blast a minotaur magus for 18 points of damage.
... 10 points of damage!
Light blow to back.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>stance off
You are now in an offensive stance.
A minotaur magus begins rumbling while making mystic gestures through the air.

The magus is prepping a spell 6 seconds after I hit him with a decent shot of an EVOKE 519. He took 2 minor stuns and my low roll on 415 didn't do anything useful to him. He was acting like I simply cast 519 at him and didn't EVOKE it.

I didn't save the hunt to a log and I can't scroll back far enough to get a clip from the last warrior I used my EVOKE set INCANT 519 on. But the last warrior took a decent endroll, then he ran off. He came back into the room about 5 seconds later and was still burning from the initial cast. I used TAP to self cast Tremors and he stood up immediately so I put him down with Ewave and then bolted him until he died.

Maybe I just had bad luck? But it doesn't feel like the spell was working as it should have been when I had 519 set to use ENVOKE when I INCANT.

-Drumpel

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1554
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 02/17/2016 03:56 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>inc 519 evoke You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation... Your spell is ready. You channel at a greater water elemental. 

 CS: +544 - TD: +570 + CvA: +25 + d100: +95 == +94
 Warded off!

Wisps of black smoke swirl around a greater water elemental for a moment, then dissipate. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. Roundtime: 3 sec.

Inc 519 evoke gives 3 seconds of hard RT, so it does not override incant channel settings even for single use.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1555
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 02/18/2016 10:57 AM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


That TD seems fair and balanced. Because spending 30-60 mana just to make something wardable is fun and exciting.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1556
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 02/18/2016 11:10 AM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>That TD seems fair and balanced. Because spending 30-60 mana just to make something wardable is fun and exciting.

If only wizards could summon up TD like that.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1557
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 02/18/2016 11:33 AM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>If only wizards could summon up TD like that.

Would be nice. I'm fine with being a glass cannon though.

The only problem is we're all glass and no cannon now.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1558
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 02/18/2016 12:43 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>The only problem is we're all glass and no cannon now.

Haha. That's a new one, but yes.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1559
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 02/20/2016 07:20 PM PST
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


So what is the chance for the DS penalty to activate? Sorry if I missed a post somewhere

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1560
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 02/20/2016 07:59 PM PST
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) Released!


Also, what lore element would apply to the DS penalty effect for a follow up with Minor Water, which does impact damage, Water or Earth?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1561
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 02/21/2016 07:22 AM PST
Subject: Stone Fist


What are the lore thresholds to use slap, clench, and pound?

Thanks :)

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1562
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 02/21/2016 07:34 AM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


My understanding of how EVOKE Immolation works is that critters will generally choose to roll around when they are on fire, but not always choose to do this. If in fact they should always choose to stop, drop, and roll then the spell is not presently working as intended. I pretty much left the full log without edits (other than bolding) to assist in reviewing:

My INCANT Setup

>incant set

INCANT CHANNEL Spells: 

 - None

INCANT EVOKE Spells: 

 -  519: Immolation

INCANT OPEN Spells: 

 - None


Unedited log - It's the combatant that has the issue?

>s [Ruined Temple, Third Floor] A mountain of rubble blocks passage to the east, rising nearly to the top of the remaining walls. While the debris appears packed together at the base, traversing the upper portion is hazardous. The damaged floor wears a visible slant in one area, with seawater from below pooling in the corner. You also see a spectral triton defender. Obvious paths: north, east > .cc immolation

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.] stance offensive incant immolation stance defensive

[Script finished!] You are now in an offensive stance. >You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a spectral triton defender. 

 CS: +535 - TD: +400 + CvA: +25 + d100: +82 == +242
 Warding failed!

Wisps of black smoke swirl around a spectral triton defender and he bursts into flame causing 49 points of damage! 

  ... 35 points of damage!
  Vicious blow to neck might have been fatal a few centuries ago.
  ... 20 points of damage!
  Strong hit rips arm from wrist to elbow.
  The wound vanishes as the ethereal flesh swirls around in chaotic patterns.
  ... 10 points of damage!
  Wild attack passes through the right leg, viciously assaulting the air!

The flames around a spectral triton defender continue to burn! Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded. > A triton combatant strides in, a wary look on his face. > .cc immolation com

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.] TARGET com stance offensive You are now targeting incant immolation stance defensive

[Script finished!] a triton combatant. >You are now in an offensive stance. > You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a triton combatant. 

 CS: +535 - TD: +402 + CvA: +20 + d100: +14 == +167
 Warding failed!

Wisps of black smoke swirl around a triton combatant and he bursts into flame causing 24 points of damage! 

  ... 25 points of damage!
  Burst of flames to left leg blackens kneecap.
  ... 20 points of damage!
  Burst of flames to left leg burns skin bright red.
  ... 15 points of damage!
  Minor burns to right arm.  That hurts a bit.
  ... 10 points of damage!
  Minor burns to right arm.  That hurts a bit.

The flames around a triton combatant continue to burn! Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded. >look [Ruined Temple, Third Floor] A mountain of rubble blocks passage to the east, rising nearly to the top of the remaining walls. While the debris appears packed together at the base, traversing the upper portion is hazardous. The damaged floor wears a visible slant in one area, with seawater from below pooling in the corner. You also see a triton combatant and a spectral triton defender. Obvious paths: north, east > A spectral triton defender falls to the ground and rolls, trying to smother the flames that surround it. The flames surrounding a spectral triton defender continue to burn. > .cc 908 defe

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.] TARGET defe stance offensive You are now targeting incant 908 stance defensive

[Script finished!] a spectral triton defender. >You are now in an offensive stance. > Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Major Fire... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a spectral triton defender. You hurl a roaring ball of fire at a spectral triton defender! 

 AS: +510 vs DS: +269 with AvD: +22 + d100 roll: +38 = +301
  ... and hit for 71 points of damage!
  A fine strike immobilizes the left leg for an instant.
  The triton defender looks miffed.

The roaring ball of fire strikes a spectral triton defender, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact. 

  ... 10 points of damage!
  Direct assault cleaves straight through the breastbone.
  Alas, it mends before you can make a wish.

A burst of flame from your roaring ball of fire flies off and hits a triton combatant. 

  ... 5 points of damage!
  Minor burns to right hand.  Ouch.

Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded. > The flames surrounding a spectral triton defender flare up violently... 

  ... 15 points of damage!
  Quick strike connects with the triton defender's lower back!
  Luckily there was nothing vital there.

The flames around a spectral triton defender continue to burn! > .cc 908

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.] stance offensive incant 908 stance defensive

[Script finished!] You are now in an offensive stance. >Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Major Fire... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a spectral triton defender. You hurl a roaring ball of fire at a spectral triton defender! 

 AS: +514 vs DS: +252 with AvD: +22 + d100 roll: +3 = +287
  ... and hit for 60 points of damage!
  Strong hit rips arm from wrist to elbow.
  The wound vanishes as the ethereal flesh swirls around in chaotic patterns.

The roaring ball of fire strikes a spectral triton defender, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact. 

  ... 5 points of damage!
  Left ankle stung!
  The triton defender stamps in silent annoyance.

A burst of flame from your roaring ball of fire flies off and hits a triton combatant. 

  ... 5 points of damage!
  Minor burns to left leg.  That hurts a bit.

Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded. > The flames surrounding a triton combatant flare up violently... 

  ... 25 points of damage!
  Burst of flames chars neck a crispy black.

The flames around a triton combatant continue to burn! > .cc 908

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.] stance offensive incant 908 stance defensive

[Script finished!] You are now in an offensive stance. >Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Major Fire... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a spectral triton defender. You hurl a roaring ball of fire at a spectral triton defender! 

 AS: +518 vs DS: +236 with AvD: +22 + d100 roll: +39 = +343
  ... and hit for 85 points of damage!
  Hard strike shatters arm into vapor.
  The arm reforms before your eyes!

The spectral form of the triton defender tenses in agony as he begins to dissolve from the bottom up! The roaring ball of fire strikes a spectral triton defender, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.

A burst of flame from your roaring ball of fire flies off and hits a triton combatant. 

  ... 5 points of damage!
  Minor burns to right leg.  That hurts a bit.

Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded. >sea defe You search the triton defender. You discard the defender's useless equipment. He didn't carry any silver. Interesting, he carried a blue crystal on him. He had nothing else of value. The triton defender fades into transparency, his remnants rapidly dissolving into the air. > A triton combatant thrusts with an oak-shafted silvery blue trident at you! 

 AS: +434 vs DS: +685 with AvD: +28 + d100 roll: +47 = -176
  A clean miss.

> .get cry

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.] put in my get cry I could not find what you were referring to. [Script]>You pick up a blue crystal. put cry in my voluminous haversack [Script]>get from my

[Script finished!] > .cc 906

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.] stance offensive You put a blue crystal in your voluminous haversack. [Script]>Get what? [Script]>incant 906 stance defensive

[Script finished!] You are now in an offensive stance. >Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Fire... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a triton combatant. You hurl a stream of fire at a triton combatant! 

 AS: +510 vs DS: +304 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +12 = +244
  ... and hit for 54 points of damage!
  Burst of flames to right arm burns skin bright red.

Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded. > A triton combatant falls to the ground and rolls, trying to smother the flames that surround it. > .cc 906

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.] stance offensive incant 906 stance defensive

[Script finished!] You are now in an offensive stance. >Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Fire... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a triton combatant. You hurl a stream of fire at a triton combatant! 

 AS: +514 vs DS: +239 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +25 = +326
  ... and hit for 94 points of damage!
  Nasty burns to back.  Won't be sleeping on that for awhile.

Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded. > The flames surrounding a triton combatant flare up violently... 

  ... 3 points of damage!
  Minor burns to left arm.  That hurts a bit.

The flames around a triton combatant continue to burn! > .cc 906

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.] stance offensive incant 906 stance defensive

[Script finished!] You are now in an offensive stance. >Wait 1 sec. > Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded. > .cc 906

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.] stance offensive incant 906 stance defensive

[Script finished!] You are now in an offensive stance. >Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Fire... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a triton combatant. You hurl a stream of fire at a triton combatant! 

 AS: +518 vs DS: +221 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +14 = +337
  ... and hit for 107 points of damage!
  Flames cook a triton combatant's abdomen.  Looks about medium well.

The triton combatant gurgles once and goes still, a wrathful look on his face. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded. >


-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul." Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1567
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 02/21/2016 08:21 AM PST
Subject: Let 519 Cover All Elements


One issue with wizards is we don't have enough warding spells to go around for each element. Not that it's anything to write home about anymore, but Immolate is our only elemental based warding spell that can be used regularly unless you count 415/502, which 502 is an opener/setup spell and not a primary damage spell, and 415 isn't a spell that any pure builds should be based around (though after the neutering of Immolate, this is the case now, which also features the extra suck factor of having to split our CS). Why does MnE have such a good warding spell in the first place? Always been curious about that.

Ice Patch is only good for one cast and is useless against non-crittable stuff.

Stone Fist well you know...it could be good, but Simu won't make it good. This also doesn't work on non-crittable stuff as far as I know. If I ever had a reason to cast this spell, I would know the answer to this.

Air all we get is 505 for a stun.

Oh yeah and Weapon Fire. When was the last time Weapon Fire was cast other than for "I haven't cast this spell in a few years, let's try it out again...nope, still sucks." reasons?

Since making those spells more than just situational limited use fireworks doesn't seem to be on the horizon (correct me if I'm wrong here, Simu), let Immolate cover all the elements via EVOKE or some other way to reliably choose the damage type (but without nerfing the damage like fire evoke, I'm talking about the non-disabler version, evoke is just being used for simplicity's sake). The flavoring wouldn't take much to come up with. The spell works the same as it does now, just with different elements and maybe different "burn" effects that make sense for each respective element.

It would also give more wizards use of the spell at lower levels. Now you can go to Teras and cast Blizzard on fire mages and stuff or cast Meteor Swarm on pyros, since we can just call the earth version of 519 that and free up the 525 slot so that we can move Rapid Fire there and remove the cooldown and then move Haste to 515 so we can have a level 35 spell slot available for something worthy of a level 35 spell slot.

But yeah, for being masters of the elements, we're lacking pretty hard in the warding department.

On another note, will Boil Earth ever be improved to where it's worth using?

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1568
Author: DRUMPEL
Date: on 02/21/2016 08:23 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Fist


What are the lore thresholds to use slap, clench, and pound?

Without an official answer, from personal experience to use on like level:

Slap = .5x Clench = 1-1.25x Pound = 1.6 - 1.75x

This was from years back, not sure if it's changed.

-Drumpel

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1569
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 02/21/2016 08:29 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Fist


With the current state of Stone Fist, does it even matter? :P

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1570
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 02/21/2016 08:37 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Fist


A is likely trying to get the exact training requirements nailed down for the wiki.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1571
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 02/21/2016 09:00 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Fist


The 514 wiki page should only say "Why are you here?"

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1572
Author: OBSERVER
Date: on 02/21/2016 09:13 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Fist


Eh, that works for MFire I guess.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1573
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 02/21/2016 09:18 AM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


One more example of the same 'issue'?

In this example I don't believe any RT is being applied from the flames. Pretty much immediately after the flames flaring up, the combatant attacked (so I would expect that it should be trying to roll on the ground if it can do something and I additionally expect that it shouldn't be able to do anything at this point in time due to being in hard RT).

At which point(s) are RT supposed to be induced with the EVOKE version of Immolation?

-- Robert


>e [Ruined Temple, Third Floor] Through the narrow corridor flanked by towering columns, the wind howls like some haunting specter. A mountainous pile of collapsed wall lies to the south, leaving behind no clues as to what once lay there. Marking a navigable trail is a headless statue, a portion of its stoic face staring up from the ground. You also see a triton combatant. Obvious paths: east, southeast, west > .cc immolation

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.] stance offensive incant immolation stance defensive

[Script finished!] You are now in an offensive stance. >You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a triton combatant. 

 CS: +535 - TD: +390 + CvA: +20 + d100: +16 == +181
 Warding failed!

Wisps of black smoke swirl around a triton combatant and she bursts into flame causing 33 points of damage! 

  ... 20 points of damage!
  Flames incinerate muscle tissue in neck exposing the trachea.  More than you ever wanted to see.
  ... 20 points of damage!
  Nasty burns to right arm.  Gonna need lots of butter.
  ... 5 points of damage!
  Minor burns to back.  Looks uncomfortable.

The flames around a triton combatant continue to burn! Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded. > Your disk arrives, following you dutifully. > A triton executioner leaps from hiding to attack! A triton executioner swings a coral-hilted sharply tapered longsword at you! 

 AS: +433 vs DS: +681 with AvD: +39 + d100 roll: +21 = -188
  A clean miss.

> .cc 906

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.] stance offensive incant 906 stance defensive

[Script finished!] You are now in an offensive stance. >Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Fire... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a triton combatant. You hurl a stream of fire at a triton combatant! 

 AS: +485 vs DS: +406 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +16 = +121
  ... and hit for 7 points of damage!
  Burst of flames to abdomen.  Didn't hurt much.

Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded. > .cc 908 exe

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.] TARGET exe stance offensive You are now targeting incant 908 stance defensive

[Script finished!] a triton executioner. >You are now in an offensive stance. > Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Major Fire... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a triton executioner. You hurl a roaring ball of fire at a triton executioner! 

 AS: +485 vs DS: +326 with AvD: +57 + d100 roll: +61 = +277
  ... and hit for 103 points of damage!
  Head reduced to a charred stump.

The triton executioner collapses, gurgling once with a wrathful look on her face before expiring. The roaring ball of fire strikes a triton executioner, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.

A burst of flame from your roaring ball of fire flies off and hits a triton combatant. 

  ... 10 points of damage!
  Burst of flames to chest toasts skin nicely.

Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded. >sea exe You search the triton executioner. You discard the executioner's useless equipment. She didn't carry any silver. She had nothing of interest. A triton executioner's slick skin begins to rapidly desiccate and dissolve away, leaving nothing behind. > .cc 906

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.] stance offensive incant 906 stance defensive

[Script finished!] You are now in an offensive stance. >Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Fire... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a triton combatant. You hurl a stream of fire at a triton combatant! 

 AS: +485 vs DS: +406 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +98 = +203
  ... and hit for 39 points of damage!
  Burst of flames to left hand fries palm.  Ouch!

Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded. > The flames surrounding a triton combatant flare up violently... 

  ... 3 points of damage!
  Minor burns to right arm.  That hurts a bit.

The flames around a triton combatant continue to burn! > A triton combatant thrusts with an oak-shafted silvery blue trident at you! 

 AS: +414 vs DS: +681 with AvD: +28 + d100 roll: +9 = -230
  A clean miss.

> .cc 906

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.] stance offensive incant 906 stance defensive

[Script finished!] You are now in an offensive stance. >Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Fire... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a triton combatant. You hurl a stream of fire at a triton combatant! 

 AS: +489 vs DS: +276 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +2 = +241
  ... and hit for 54 points of damage!
  Burst of flames to right arm toasts skin to elbows.

Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded. > .cc 906

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.] stance offensive In an awe inspiring display of combat mastery, a triton combatant engages you in a furious dance macabre, spiralling into a blur of strikes and ripostes! A triton combatant thrusts with an oak-shafted silvery blue trident at you! 

 AS: +404 vs DS: +681 with AvD: +28 + d100 roll: +41 = -208
  A clean miss.

A triton combatant thrusts with an oak-shafted silvery blue trident at you! 

 AS: +404 vs DS: +681 with AvD: +28 + d100 roll: +93 = -156
  A clean miss.

A triton combatant thrusts with an oak-shafted silvery blue trident at you! 

 AS: +404 vs DS: +681 with AvD: +28 + d100 roll: +84 = -165
  A clean miss.

A triton combatant thrusts with an oak-shafted silvery blue trident at you! A heavy barrier of stone momentarily forms around you and blocks the attack!

[Script]>incant 906 stance defensive

[Script finished!] You are now in an offensive stance. >Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Fire... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a triton combatant. You hurl a stream of fire at a triton combatant! 

 AS: +493 vs DS: +267 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +6 = +258
  ... and hit for 67 points of damage!
  Flames incinerate left arm to the bone.  Not a pleasant sight.

Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded. > The flames surrounding a triton combatant flare up violently... 

  ... 10 points of damage!
  Burst of flames to chest toasts skin nicely.

The flames around a triton combatant continue to burn! > .cc 906

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.] stance offensive incant 906 stance defensive

[Script finished!] You are now in an offensive stance. >Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Fire... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a triton combatant. You hurl a stream of fire at a triton combatant! 

 AS: +497 vs DS: +244 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +58 = +337
  ... and hit for 107 points of damage!
  Flames cook a triton combatant's back.  Looks about medium well.

The triton combatant collapses, gurgling once with a wrathful look on her face before expiring. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. >


-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul." Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1574
Author: DOUG
Date: on 02/21/2016 09:24 AM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Fist


If you're tired of crawlers diving on you, Stone Fist is a nice spell. While it's not as good in overall effects as Web (118), it has some utility even without EL:E training.

I'd like to see the 'ROOT'ed affect combat as well as 'movement.' Slight DS penalty (say -35) would be just stellar. And, if the creature is 'ROOT'ed, I don't expect to be eating shields and such. . .

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1575
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 02/21/2016 02:24 PM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Fist


Doug
I'd like to see the 'ROOT'ed affect combat as well as 'movement.' Slight DS penalty (say -35) would be just stellar. And, if the creature is 'ROOT'ed, I don't expect to be eating shields and such. . .

"Rooted targets receive a penalty of -50 AS to melee attacks, -25 AS to ranged attacks, and -25 DS, but this does not stack with some other status conditions." In addition and not previously officially announced, rooted creatures cannot perform maneuvers. This applies to targeted Ice Patch (512) and Stone Fist (514).

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1576
Author: LALAKERCLAN
Date: on 02/21/2016 02:49 PM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Fist


Any chance of making Stone Fist less clunky/slow and lore intense?

Any chance of improvements to 519?

Boil Earth? Weapon Fire? Sandstorm?

415 really shouldn't be the best option we have but right now it sure is.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1577
Author: DOUG
Date: on 02/21/2016 02:58 PM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Fist


Thanks, Estild - I ran across the quote after the post, but while scanning to see if there was anything on the Wikipedia. I noted that quote on 512, Ice Patch.

I left the post, rather than simply removing it because - I chose -35 for a reason; just a tad shy of the 211 and 215 benefits to AS for other pures, and per spell cast instance. That extra 10 is often the difference in crits and the wizard's survival.

I am very grateful to receive official confirmation on the maneuvers! Thank you.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1578
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 02/21/2016 03:09 PM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Fist


>415 really shouldn't be the best option we have but right now it sure is.

Have no fear, they'll probably nerf it so they can say Immolate is now on par with 415.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1579
Author: CAPTAINVIOLETBEARD
Date: on 02/22/2016 11:09 PM PST
Subject: Re: Stone Fist


Hi, just checking in, are there any plans?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1580
Author: CANDIDE
Date: on 02/23/2016 12:11 PM PST
Subject: New New 519 vs old new 519


Went back to the OTF and hunted war griffins. Inspired by Kaedra's 528 (20 over max CS for non wisdom bonus race Clerics and yet full enhancive for wisdom.) I went in with 582 CS from a badge and heavy quartz orbs. For 16 of the 109 casts I was at 572 the rest were all at 582 which is 15 above max for a Dark Elf Wizard. Wizard has 122 ranks in Fire lore.


Old New Immolation (from the last go through and a recap) 133 casts 31 killed 4.29 casts per kill 182 average warding margin 23.46591 average strike damage 85.63107 average damage per cast

NEW New Immolation 109 casts 42 killed 2.59 casts per kill 11 Instant 195.27523 average warding margin (accounting for the boost CS rather well) 37.24103 Average strike damage 148.2041 Average damage per cast

Many kills were from just the impact damage after having bled the War Griffin down. I can go back and check if anyone is interested in that.

This originally was compared to 317 and 1115.

317 was (cleric has 61 ranks of religion) 103 casts 31 kills 3.32 casts per kill 168.69903 warding margin 46.50172 average strike damage 139.875 Average damage per cast

and 1115 was (empath has 100 summoning ranks.) 123 total casts 38 kills 3.23 casts per kill 170.2601626 average warding margin 26.29960317 Average damage per strike 124.9148936 Average damage per cast


What do I take from all this? That the NEW new 519 is where it "should" be more or less. Though considering I went in there in slightly super mode skews the end results in 519's favor. Something I did on purpose having seen kaedra's run through the park. What would I like done? I would like the damage to have more chances to hit chest abdomen back and less on limbs while keeping eye/head the same. Anyone else want that to be the case?

Now what I am eager to see is what is in store for wizards as far as disablers and other attack spells that would enable more styles of hunting or choices/abilities to hunt.

GBB

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1581
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 02/23/2016 12:52 PM PST
Subject: Re: New New 519 vs old new 519


>What do I take from all this? That the NEW new 519 is where it "should" be more or less. Though considering I went in there in slightly super mode skews the end results in 519's favor. Something I did on purpose having seen kaedra's run through the park. What would I like done? I would like the damage to have more chances to hit chest abdomen back and less on limbs while keeping eye/head the same. Anyone else want that to be the case?

This is beyond dumb and incomparable analysis as Kaedra's 528 is based off of 30 lore ranks (15% of the SLR total) and not including 1711. Your wizard CS is absolute high end considering not everyone is a dark elf, even fully min-maxed with enhancives, 1711, and more than 60% of ELR ranks.

I don't agree at all that this is where things should be. Instead of starting ten thousand threads with a single post (no, it doesn't make your point more valid), you should take a good look at the apples to apples numbers I provided in the 519 vs. 317 samples thread.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1582
Author: CANDIDE
Date: on 02/23/2016 01:42 PM PST
Subject: Re: New New 519 vs old new 519


"I don't agree at all that this is where things should be. Instead of starting ten thousand threads with a single post (no, it doesn't make your point more valid), you should take a good look at the apples to apples numbers I provided in the 519 vs. 317 samples thread."

I am not starting ten thousand threads on purpose I just don't want to slog through all the previous posts find it and reply to it. :) Why you would think I am trying to make my point more valid by doing that is baffling to me. Not everything is some nefarious Roswell like plot/scheme.

"This is beyond dumb and incomparable analysis as Kaedra's 528 is based off of 30 lore ranks (15% of the SLR total) and not including 1711. Your wizard CS is absolute high end considering not everyone is a dark elf, even fully min-maxed with enhancives, 1711, and more than 60% of ELR ranks."

The problems of lores to spell end effects I can agree with.

317 3rd cycle Training in Spiritual Lore, Religion will provide a chance for a third cycle of deity-specific critical damage. The percent chance is (Religion Lore skill bonus - 70) ÷ 2. 

   Spiritual Lore, Religion ranks 	16 	20 	27 	35 	50 	70 	90 	110 	130 	150 	170
   Chance for third cycle of critical damage 	2% 	10% 	20% 	30% 	40% 	50% 	60% 	70% 	80% 	90% 	100%

So 122 religion ranks would grant like a 60-70 percent chance to a third cycle while 122 ranks of fire lore on 519 would give a wizard around 80-85 percent of a second cycle. I have always argued that the new 519 needed a 2 to 3 damage cycle not the current 1 or 2. To the point that when the "fix" was rolled in I mentioned that the impact damage adder was not what I wanted to see done and was told by song lyrics "that you get what you need." (fun and I didn't take that response in a bad way because you dont have to take EVERYTHING in the worst possible light) But in terms of the numbers I ran earlier and the newer numbers the spell is much improved is it not? The wizard had only +5 AURA bonus in enhancives and 1711 to make up for the lack of the other 15 possible. I didn't want to search through characters in order to pass over the aura enhancives, but now I just might. This seems to go faster the more I do it. Fully maxed CS with 1711 would be 597. the moment I get a wizard with max CS and 31 ranks of fire lore I will do the apples to apples comparison.  :) Give me a few years I could get to 587 CS and 30 fire lore on my Halfling wizard.

So to sum up. -old new 519 horribad. -new new 519 better. -could still use what I originally wanted done to the spell to make it more like 317, maybe upping the chance on instant kills would be the answer?

GBB

ps be constructive not just adversarial.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1583
Author: DEANSMITH
Date: on 02/23/2016 02:09 PM PST
Subject: Re: New New 519 vs old new 519


With 122 ranks of lore, the Wizard gets an additional flare 81% of the time and a insta-kill ~10% of the time. With 61 ranks of lore the Cleric is getting the additional flare 45% of the time (25% of the time if at 30 ranks). The Cleric would need 133 ranks of lore to have an equal chance at getting the additional flare. Considering this and the difference in average warding margin, the spells look mostly similar.

If warding margins and lore contributions were more similar, Immolation would be a step below 317.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1584
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 02/23/2016 02:29 PM PST
Subject: Re: New New 519 vs old new 519


>So 122 religion ranks would grant like a 60-70 percent chance to a third cycle while 122 ranks of fire lore on 519 would give a wizard around 80-85 percent of a second cycle. I have always argued that the new 519 needed a 2 to 3 damage cycle not the current 1 or 2. To the point that when the "fix" was rolled in I mentioned that the impact damage adder was not what I wanted to see done and was told by song lyrics "that you get what you need." (fun and I didn't take that response in a bad way because you dont have to take EVERYTHING in the worst possible light) But in terms of the numbers I ran earlier and the newer numbers the spell is much improved is it not? The wizard had only +5 AURA bonus in enhancives and 1711 to make up for the lack of the other 15 possible. I didn't want to search through characters in order to pass over the aura enhancives, but now I just might. This seems to go faster the more I do it. Fully maxed CS with 1711 would be 597. the moment I get a wizard with max CS and 31 ranks of fire lore I will do the apples to apples comparison.  :) Give me a few years I could get to 587 CS and 30 fire lore on my Halfling wizard.

This is so oversimplified, it's almost not even worth responding, but since you are spreading disinformation, I will repost what I posted in the original thread.

It takes far fewer religion ranks to get a basic chance of the 3rd cycle since 317 is based on skill bonus and not on seed ranks. At the base level, 317 also does 50% or more damage on the first damage cycle than 519, so it's far less of a slot machine than 519 is. I don't want to rely on a 3-6% instant kill (post-immolation warding margin penalties, given high elemental TDs for creatures across the board) when for a cleric, most of the damage is done upfront.

Relying on additional crit cycles forces you to rely on luck that the creature 1) can crit, 2) the crit location is a body part that the creature has, and 3) randomization results in a favorable roll. I want more damage up front, resulting in more reliability and less random luck, not an incineration chance that is going to be mitigated by the warding margin penalty anyway. There is a much lower ceiling for a wizard's maximum CS since they don't have 240, 340, or access to certain spiritual CS boosters that spiritualists do.

Higher CS across the board for clerics and empaths not only results in higher initial damage but straight up higher crit ranks to the point where the 3rd cycle is no longer relevant.

Looking at total damage is also completely the wrong approach because with 317, the creature is often dead from higher upfront damage and therefore higher 1st crit rank before it even has a chance to suffer more damage.

597 is also not a realistic baseline CS for a wizard (not everyone is a dark elf or a halfling). If you're comparing max wizard to max cleric, the cleric will win every day, but you're comparing max wizard to absolute baseline cleric CS, which does not compute at all.

Constructive would be you actually reading the arguments people posted in the main "519 vs. 317 samples" thread instead of trying to present your skewed samples as objective data.

TL,DR: The first damage cycle and first crit rank are far more important than your analysis depicts.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1585
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 02/23/2016 02:30 PM PST
Subject: Re: New New 519 vs old new 519


>With 122 ranks of lore, the Wizard gets an additional flare 81% of the time and a insta-kill ~10% of the time. With 61 ranks of lore the Cleric is getting the additional flare 45% of the time (25% of the time if at 30 ranks). The Cleric would need 133 ranks of lore to have an equal chance at getting the additional flare. Considering this and the difference in average warding margin, the spells look mostly similar.

Again, way oversimplified. If you looked at the numerical tables in the "519 vs. 317 samples" thread, this doesn't prove to be the case at all nor does the math compute in actual apples-to-apples samples of casts per kill.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1586
Author: CANDIDE
Date: on 02/23/2016 02:36 PM PST
Subject: Re: New New 519 vs old new 519


Examples are below. Notice that 317 has 3-4 damage cycles from lore. While 519 has 2-3 damages from lore and an extra 2 burning damage that is not going to be anything to write home about. If I get a super high 317 on a war griffin I will show it later.


317 You channel at a festering taint. Particles of dust and soot rise from the floor at your feet as you release a pulsating, platinum ripple of energy toward a festering taint! CS: +412 - TD: +339 + CvA: +25 + d100: +64 == +162 Warding failed! The festering taint is cloaked in a blinding platinum light and assailed for 101 points of damage! ... 35 points of damage! Immolating blast causes the festering taint's hand to explode. The festering taint stares blankly at its severed right hand. The festering taint is stunned! ... 20 points of damage! Strike to abdomen punctures stomach! ... 10 points of damage! Strike pierces upper arm! Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

519 You gesture at a war griffin. 

 CS: +582 - TD: +451 + CvA: +25 + d100: +6 == +162
 Warding failed!

Wisps of black smoke swirl around a war griffin and it bursts into flame causing 70 points of damage! 

  ... 35 points of damage!
  Burst of flames to right leg blackens kneecap.
  ... 40 points of damage!
  Nasty burns to right leg.  Gonna need lots of butter.
  ... 10 points of damage!
  Minor burns to right arm.  That hurts a bit.
  ... 10 points of damage!
  Minor burns to left arm.  That hurts a bit.

The flames around a war griffin continue to burn! Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

GBB

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1587
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 02/23/2016 02:39 PM PST
Subject: Re: New New 519 vs old new 519


Cherry picking samples is going to do nothing to help your case.

The full statistical analysis is here: http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Wizards/Wizard%20Spells/thread/1764880?get_newest=true

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1588
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 02/23/2016 02:54 PM PST
Subject: Re: New New 519 vs old new 519


All I got from this so far is that if Immolate is to be even remotely effective, it requires maxing your CS with enhancives.

Except things aren't supposed to be balanced around enhancives.

Cool game guys.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1589
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 02/23/2016 02:57 PM PST
Subject: Re: New New 519 vs old new 519


>It takes far fewer religion ranks to get a basic chance of the 3rd cycle since 317 is based on skill bonus and not on seed ranks.

are you sure you're comparing the right charts? If so, I don't understand this remark.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1590
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 02/23/2016 03:10 PM PST
Subject: Re: New New 519 vs old new 519


>are you sure you're comparing the right charts? If so, I don't understand this remark.

At 30 religion lore ranks, a cleric has 25% chance for a third cycle and at 60 ranks, 45%.

At 30 fire lore ranks, a wizard has 20% chance for a third cycle and at 60 ranks, 40%.

What's not to understand?

Also, a cleric's first crit cycle is plasma based, and a wizard's is fire-based, which covers a much narrower range of creatures.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1591
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 02/23/2016 03:13 PM PST
Subject: Re: New New 519 vs old new 519


The math has proven that 317 is far more effective with just 60 lore ranks (less than 30% of spiritual lores) than 519 is with 150+ ranks (75%+). We aren't even counting 240, 340, or extra spiritual boosters in this.

Finally, to truly min-max Major Elemental CS to the extent that GM Estild seems to think we should, one would have to sacrifice a lot of TD and DS from the wizard circle that is not something a cleric has to do in their normal training. For one single spell that does not actually do much at all any more.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1592
Author: CANDIDE
Date: on 02/23/2016 03:23 PM PST
Subject: Re: New New 519 vs old new 519


"This is so oversimplified, it's almost not even worth responding, but since you are spreading disinformation, I will repost what I posted in the original thread."

Spreading disinformation? I think you should go look that word up on the dictionary. I would also suggest ignoring me since I do not read your posts.


I will take my "baseline" cleric of 503 CS and 61 religion ranks and boost him up a bit then calculate 1st and 2nd strikes :). Will see how long this takes me and show some more skewed results. (Which are not skewed at all just simply what I have available.)

Remember these are all war griffins and nothing but war griffins with no one else casting at said Griffins but the immolater/witherer/divine fury....er :). There will be very few up front kills. If you have another creature in mind to base these casts off of I will see about abusing them in the name of skewed results as well.

GBB

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1593
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 02/23/2016 03:28 PM PST
Subject: Re: New New 519 vs old new 519


>What's not to understand?

You said one was based on a seed for the damage cycle, neither of them are. I'm trying to give your post due respect to understand fully.

>At 30 religion lore ranks, a cleric has 25% chance for a third cycle and at 60 ranks, 45%.

>At 30 fire lore ranks, a wizard has 20% chance for a third cycle and at 60 ranks, 40%.

You leave out the additional benefit of the incineration chance for wizards. The 5% lower percentage at 60 ranks comes with a 6% chance to outright kill the target. At 90 ranks the chance for a third cycle is equal, and then the wizards have the advantage up to 100%. Sounds fairly balanced, and tilted toward the wizard at higher levels. When you scold people about cherry picking, you might want to look at your own view as well.

>Also, a cleric's first crit cycle is plasma based, and a wizard's is fire-based, which covers a much narrower range of creatures.

Also, a wizard can evoke Immolation for less mana, less damage, causing RT on the target (assuming this is fixed). Fire still covers a very large range of creatures.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1594
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 02/23/2016 03:29 PM PST
Subject: Re: New New 519 vs old new 519


>Which are not skewed at all just simply what I have available.

I get that it's what you have available, but it's not apples to apples and it proves nothing. By definition it is skewed.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1595
Author: CANDIDE
Date: on 02/23/2016 03:30 PM PST
Subject: Re: New New 519 vs old new 519


"All I got from this so far is that if Immolate is to be even remotely effective, it requires maxing your CS with enhancives.

Except things aren't supposed to be balanced around enhancives.

Cool game guys.

~ Methais"

I am not adverse to this viewpoint at all. This was simply a response (albeit minor) to super Kaedra posts of 317. I do not have super 60+ million DE wizard so I did as much as I could without working too hard at looking for enhancives. (Just used a badge.)

I wouldn't want this to be the baseline for the spell either, but the spell is better than the original nerf.

I do not want to be "This all sucks and I am going to hold my breath until everything is like it used to be!"

I would rather try to appeal with the numbers that were asked for and the ideas those numbers give me for making the spell better. More upfront damage? Higher instant kill? I'm all for these things.

GBB

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1596
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 02/23/2016 03:35 PM PST
Subject: Re: New New 519 vs old new 519


>You said one was based on a seed for the damage cycle, neither of them are. I'm trying to give your post due respect to understand fully.

My mistake, what I meant is that the extra cycle is based on ranks and not skill bonus for 519. The incineration chance is based on seed ranks though, and it's insignificant if you don't have 100+ ranks (or 50%+ of elemental lores).

>You leave out the additional benefit of the incineration chance for wizards. The 5% lower percentage at 60 ranks comes with a 6% chance to outright kill the target. At 90 ranks the chance for a third cycle is equal, and then the wizards have the advantage up to 100%. Sounds fairly balanced, and tilted toward the wizard at higher levels. When you scold people about cherry picking, you might want to look at your own view as well.

If you looked at the tables in the previous thread, the incineration chance is 2-6% at best for nearly 50% of the casts due to the incineration penalty and average endroll for post-cap hunting. I don't consider this a reasonable tradeoff. If you look at total casts per kill, it's still in favor of the cleric. You're again oversimplifying matters. Just because it is tilted toward the wizard at the higher levels means nothing regarding the lethality of the spell when the cleric relies so much less on chance to begin with and can further boost their CS past anything a wizard can achieve with 240 and 340.

>Also, a wizard can evoke Immolation for less mana, less damage, causing RT on the target (assuming this is fixed). Fire still covers a very large range of creatures.

Evoked immolation does basically no damage and very minimal RT for 15 mana. And there is still the bug about evoked immolation causing hard RT. I'd rather not have evoked immolation and an actual effective CS-based massed disabler, instead of two mediocre spells in one.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1597
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 02/23/2016 03:38 PM PST
Subject: Re: New New 519 vs old new 519


>I wouldn't want this to be the baseline for the spell either, but the spell is better than the original nerf.

That's not what you said though. You said this was fine.

I agree it's better than the original nerf, but it's not really saying much, considering how far it's lacking in comparison to 317 and 1115 even before considering the availability of 240 and 340.

By the way, I should have blanked out the name, but "super Kaedra" posts aren't that super. My cleric is better than Kaedra. For hunting purposes, all that matters is CS and lore ranks and she has a very low split of religion lore due to her emphasis on rescuing.

>I do not want to be "This all sucks and I am going to hold my breath until everything is like it used to be!"

Now you're not dramatic at all. Presenting numbers in the other thread wasn't "I'm going to hold my breath until everything is like it used to be!". It was to demonstrate that the numbers show that 519 is far behind 317 and there is a long way to go to making them even remotely equal on an apples to apples basis.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1598
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 02/23/2016 03:44 PM PST
Subject: Re: New New 519 vs old new 519


>I would rather try to appeal with the numbers that were asked for and the ideas those numbers give me for making the spell better. More upfront damage? Higher instant kill? I'm all for these things.

I do find it rather offensive ignoring someone else's work of 4 data sets of numbers that took 30+ hours to generate and extract (looking up crit ranks based on messaging was a massive pain). People have been appealing with the numbers, even if you ignored them.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1599
Author: CANDIDE
Date: on 02/23/2016 03:52 PM PST
Subject: Re: New New 519 vs old new 519


"That's not what you said though. You said this was fine."

I didn;t say it was fine at all. My statement of fact would be "What do I take from all this? That the NEW new 519 is where it should be more or less." instead I wrote "What do I take from all this? That the NEW new 519 is where it "should" be more or less." Adding the quotes to should means I do not feel that its as i should be it is what would be perceived as should by the GM's in charge of this whole thing.

If you are going to say that 528 CS isn't all that "super" because she is missing 30-100 religion ranks I would say you are wrong. She probably has +50 religion rank in enhancives for all I know, and I don't care if she did. The posts on her examples were denigrated because of the higher than normal CS so I wanted to do my own version of that. What is so hard to understand here? The name of the thread itself was the key here. I provided the 317 and 1115 numbers from before because I didn't want to rehash them and instead they ended up taking over the title of the thread which is crazy.

Just did a run of 522 CS 61 religion ranks will post the numbers as soon as I work through them. Yes I get that I can use 240 and wizards can't.

GBB

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1600
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 02/23/2016 03:55 PM PST
Subject: Re: New New 519 vs old new 519


>If you are going to say that 528 CS isn't all that "super" because she is missing 30-100 religion ranks I would say you are wrong. She probably has +50 religion rank in enhancives for all I know, and I don't care if she did. The posts on her examples were denigrated because of the higher than normal CS so I wanted to do my own version of that. What is so hard to understand here? The name of the thread itself was the key here. I provided the 317 and 1115 numbers from before because I didn't want to rehash them and instead they ended up taking over the title of the thread which is crazy.

What was posted what was was tested, no more and no less. 528 CS is not super, it is 3x spells and max enhancives. Same as the wizard examples in that thread. She has 31 ranks of religion lore, no enhancives (and you should care if she did and would know, because there is no reason to skew results by pretending that they are there when they aren't).

Unless you are comparing 3x spells and 2x lore splits, it's not apples to apples. I don't know what's so hard to understand.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1601
Author: CANDIDE
Date: on 02/23/2016 06:52 PM PST
Subject: Re: New New 519 vs old new 519


"What was posted what was was tested, no more and no less. 528 CS is not super, it is 3x spells and max enhancives. Same as the wizard examples in that thread. She has 31 ranks of religion lore, no enhancives (and you should care if she did and would know, because there is no reason to skew results by pretending that they are there when they aren't).

Unless you are comparing 3x spells and 2x lore splits, it's not apples to apples. I don't know what's so hard to understand."

-Every Wizard, Empath, and Cleric I have used is x3 spells and x2 lores. Though not always set up for max CS. Cleric and empath were -5max CS. Please consider practicing what you are preaching.

-The link you provided doesn't actually go to anything. I remember huge piles of data sheets from the boards but I do not save them for future reference.

"I do find it rather offensive ignoring someone else's work of 4 data sets of numbers that took 30+ hours to generate and extract (looking up crit ranks based on messaging was a massive pain). People have been appealing with the numbers, even if you ignored them."

You seem to find everything offensive especially if you think it doesn't agree with you. Even though at no point have we been far off of anything.

-I have not ignored your 30 hours of testing. I just didn't go back and refresh them because things are impossible to find on these boards and really not needed when I have the numbers in front of me anyway. I see all you say about the first two shots of 317 being harder, but the changes to 519 mimics 317 to a rather large extent. If you want to send me a working link I will refresh my memory on all your work so you won't feel I am dismissing it.  :) And yet all of that would mean nothing to the point of the post being.

New new 519 vs old new 519

GBB

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1602
Author: LALAKERCLAN
Date: on 02/23/2016 11:08 PM PST
Subject: Re: New New 519 vs old new 519


Wait a minute.

You went in with a very difficult to achieve CS to get warding margins of +20-30 higher than the results of the tests you're comparing against. Also a lot more fire lore, and then compared them to the 317 and 1115 tests? Not apples to apples at all.

Moreover...even skewing the results in favor of 519, I still don't think 519 actually did all that impressive damage! If you took away the ridiculous warding margins in this test you would have seen half the number of instant kills and significantly lower damage than 317, semi-comparable to 1115. And this is with end rolls that averaged 190 at cap. The tests run before seem to show that, for whatever reason, similar end rolls favor 317 over 519.

Yet 519 costs more than both 317 and 1115.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1603
Author: CANDIDE
Date: on 02/23/2016 11:31 PM PST
Subject: Re: New New 519 vs old new 519


"You went in with a very difficult to achieve CS to get warding margins of +20-30 higher than the results of the tests you're comparing against-LALAKERCLAN"

I never complained about those tests. I swear it is almost like reading comprehension has been lost completely.


"The tests run before seem to show that, for whatever reason, similar end rolls favor 317 over 519.-LALACKERCLAN"

I think knowing the extent of how good it can be is important. If I could bring myself to go 202 fire lore and do this test I would, but right now I have what I have. I do not feel 202 should be something this spell should be coded for. I do not feel 582 CS should be what a wizard needs in order to use this spell effectively, but I do believe in knowing the spells measurables.

I'm herding cats here.

Nevermind.


GBB

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1604
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 02/24/2016 12:32 AM PST
Subject: Re: New New 519 vs old new 519


>I never complained about those tests. I swear it is almost like reading comprehension has been lost completely.

You might take your own advice about reading comprehension. Your own tests are skewed to prove whatever point you are trying to make while discounting the fact that your analysis is flawed and not apples to apples, so the results are meaningless. There is no point in discussing this further because your samples are not valid to any relevant comparison.

>I'm herding cats here.

Talk about being offensive when people don't agree with your points. You aren't going to herd us into anything, because it's bogus.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1605
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 02/24/2016 04:33 AM PST
Subject: Re: New New 519 vs old new 519


>I think knowing the extent of how good it can be is important. If I could bring myself to go 202 fire lore and do this test I would, but right now I have what I have.

Wouldn't this be useless anyway since 100% chance for a 3rd damage cycle happens at 150 ranks?

>I do not feel 202 should be something this spell should be coded for.

It made sense with old immolate and actually felt like making all in choices had actual real benefits. But yeah, not with this new garbage.

Even with these super CS clips, my 415 with 530 CS (101/101/101) is still better. And it knocks down most of the time without having to nerf the damage.

A level 15 spell...that half the classes in the game can learn...is better than our level 19 profession specific spell...with 100 fire lore ranks vs Immolate's 150 ranks.

http://images.memes.com/meme/203518

In before 415 gets nerfed so they can say immolate is just as good now and therefore Immolate's problems are fixed.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1606
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 02/24/2016 06:12 AM PST
Subject: Re: New New 519 vs old new 519


>Yet 519 costs more than both 317 and 1115.

519 is not a profession circle spell.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1608
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 02/24/2016 06:55 AM PST
Subject: Re: New New 519 vs old new 519


>519 is not a profession circle spell.

For all intents and purposes, it is. It might not say "Wizard" but the spell circle is exclusive to wizards.

We can split hairs and play semantics all day if you'd like, but I'd prefer to focus on getting something worth a crap done for this pile of trash called Immolate.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1609
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 02/24/2016 07:47 AM PST
Subject: Re: New New 519 vs old new 519


>For all intents and purposes, it is. It might not say "Wizard" but the spell circle is exclusive to wizards.

except it is not a profession circle. Your desire to have two circles with profession level powers are perhaps leading to unrealistic expectations.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1611
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 02/24/2016 08:37 AM PST
Subject: Re: New New 519 vs old new 519


Would it make you happier if I called it a profession exclusive circle? Just let me know so we can get this semantics game over with. Otherwise please let me know what professions wizards share Major Elemental with.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1612
Author: DOUG
Date: on 02/24/2016 08:59 AM PST
Subject: Re: New New 519 vs old new 519


>>We can split hairs and play semantics all day if you'd like

Wizards are the only profession that can natively cast the Major Elemental Circle. That does not make it a profession circle. It needs to continue to function as a Major circle. Not a single hair harmed. Attempts to claim otherwise for any purpose would fit the definition of hair-splitting or sophistry, though.

If I can offer an observation CANDIDE - as with any other audience or population I might interact with, I find there are some members of that audience who are exceedingly passionate about their viewpoint. I know this 'cuz I r one in some cases. I would suspect we each of us at one time or another could acknowledge we were in that frame of mind.

When in that frame, I feel as though to me there's only one right answer. Clearly it would be the one that I hold. And just as clearly, my correct answer is totally unassailable - built from common sense and a wealth of experience, backed by data that supports exactly my position. And when I'm in this frame, any rejoinder other than total and absolute concurrence drives me completely mad. I mean, it's so obvious! And everyone else is just wrong. Period.

That passion, that drive - even where it might be a minority or unpopular opinion - is critically important for any number of reasons. I'd be happy to lay out my thoughts, but I frequently get feedback that my posts are too long, and I'm working on that. I just wish we could all be aware of this perspective, and be a smidge less disagreeable one with another. There's nothing wrong with taking up the positions and supporting them. Undermining or belittling someone else needlessly though. . . that's used to emphasize or strengthen one's position. Sometimes, I think, too much for such actions to be of value.

The point (TL;DR) - recognize it happens to each of us, and should be welcome / used - but not abused.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1613
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 02/24/2016 09:16 AM PST
Subject: Re: New New 519 vs old new 519


>except it is not a profession circle. Your desire to have two circles with profession level powers are perhaps leading to unrealistic expectations.

Perhaps we should discuss those expectations. Does every other pure have at least 2 guaranteed and reliable instant kill magical combat combinations/spells? Yes. Do wizards now? No, not even 1. That's the entire point of the matter, the end.

Would wizards love to have all of their combat spells in a single circle so that we can have our cake and eat it too like every other pure, not having to make a tradeoff for which CS-based spell is more powerful? Of course we would. Talking about the "profession" circle is meaningless when the wizard circle has nothing of value except 925, which is used to justify why the rest of it is so weak. I would say in today's GemStone, 735 is far more powerful, versatile, and risk free than 925 ever was. 911, 913, and 925 are the only spells of any value within the wizard circle, period. The rest are just "flavor".

So what's the reason we can no longer have uber level 20, 25, 30, 35, and 40 spells instead of the garbage we've been given? I'd trade you for 720, 725, 730, 735, and 740 over 520 (lol), 525 (can't even be cast), 535, and 540 any day.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1614
Author: DOUG
Date: on 02/24/2016 09:44 AM PST
Subject: Re: New New 519 vs old new 519


>>Perhaps we should discuss those expectations. Does every other pure have at least 2 guaranteed and reliable instant kill magical combat combinations/spells? Yes. Do wizards now? No, not even 1. That's the entire point of the matter, the end.

I like the very clearly laid out call to action. I don't know that I agree with it for a couple of reasons, but distilling it to this point is important and appreciated.

One of the expectations that I hold is that the existing game framework of rules (which includes profession definitions, the way magic is expressed in spheres and spell circles and more) remains intact in creating the solution. Changing the core framework, whether it be a discussion of changing training points for skills or changing rules of magic to address a profession's challenges always falls short in one regard - it doesn't take into account impacts to all other professions, or the labor needed to change the core so a 'new model' can be supported through those professions.

I would also challenge the comment that the Wizard spell list is useless (with the exception of a spell, or a couple of spells). I see no way that bolts could be considered useless. More importantly, I see no way that at any point before post-cap, it would be beneficial for wizards to not have bolts. But most important of all, bolts are not CS-driven, they are AS-driven.

All that said, and returning to the key point expressed by Destiny14 above, reliable (I won't go as far as 'guaranteed', still counter to my overall position) means of dealing with NPCs is probably best captured through a CS path, not an AS path. Bolts simply are too random to be able to rely on. Big damage, yes - but not reliable. Making bolts the reliable path again challenges the core of the rules' framework.

I like the discussion of combo - I've been playing around with varying disabling effects to see how combos are implemented for us wizards. One difference I see is that for other pure professions, the combos can affect multiple NPC attacks for a single cast. Some are very powerful and of relatively short duration - 30 seconds or so. Others may not be intended to be quite as powerful, but last longer. For wizards, it seems that wizard-specific attack combat combos (not talking about defense or utility here) are single NPC oriented, with the sole exception of Call Wind - which is not really reliable against quadruped / anti-magic / flying creatures. Note: I'm not including the Minor Elemental spells because a lot of professions in the game can use this spell list - so it is not wizard-specific.

How does this feel? A reliable (but not guaranteed) method of knocking down / stancing and rooting groups of NPCs. We have Call Wind for the first part - but that may need a look as to the efficacy. And we have. . . nothing to root a group of NPCs, and the single ones we have aren't 'supposed to' stack effects, even though even Rogues can get this benefit of proning, stancing and stunning.

Might not yet be TotalSolution worthy. Just throwing it out to get shredded in hopes something stronger can come along. As long as that something stronger doesn't end in 'easy-button' one-shot one-kill all the time, I think I can be happy.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1615
Author: LALAKERCLAN
Date: on 02/24/2016 10:01 AM PST
Subject: Re: New New 519 vs old new 519


> profession circle blah blah

It still costs more, significantly more than 1115, and has similar lore requirements and benefits.

the devs put ALL of our useful warding spells in the 500s. The only CS spell that even exists in the 900s is Weapon Fire, and ain't nobody training wizard ranks for that. By design, then, the devs offered a choice: higher useful CS for lower DS/TD, enchanting ability, and call wind potency. Since bolt spells don't get any better with over training it previously only really made sense, for offensive purposes, to train in the 500s. Thus the 500s is the wizard specific CS circle for which we need to overtrain to have any reliable chance of warding anything considering critter TD. Seems exactly like a profession circle to me.

> reading comprehension blah blah

Really fella? Weren't your exact words that you think 519 is right where it should be?

If your only point is that adding the concussion damage improved the nerfed version of the spell then...sure! Definitely improved trash to less trash. But your point didn't stop there, and that is where the disagreement lies.

Question: do you believe no further improvements to 519 are warranted based on the available data? If yes, I (we?) respectfully disagree. If no, what do you think should be done to improve it?

Ps - asking it to hit the back/chest/abs more frequently is a bad idea.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1616
Author: CANDIDE
Date: on 02/24/2016 12:32 PM PST
Subject: Re: New New 519 vs old new 519


"reading comprehension blah blah-LALAKERCLAN"

"Really fella? Weren't your exact words that you think 519 is right where it should be?"

You don't need to go back and reread the post you are misquoting, but that is the second time you have done so to me. Please focus on the quotation marks around should.

"What do I take from all this? That the NEW new 519 is where it "should" be more or less.-ME"

"Quotation marks(“ ”) are used to enclose words that are quoted from the original source, or to set off dialog from narrative." Think of the air quotes you would use in a conversation. Then do the statement out loud with quote and without quotes. I think you will see the difference. Having misread me twice I can't help you much more than this.

"You might take your own advice about reading comprehension. Your own tests are skewed to prove whatever point you are trying to make while discounting the fact that your analysis is flawed and not apples to apples, so the results are meaningless. There is no point in discussing this further because your samples are not valid to any relevant comparison.-Destiny14"

If I have misread something that has been written here let me know. I have to my count been misrepresented at least 3 times. My examples are not apples to apples and never will be. I get that. They were never meant to be. Do you get that?

"I'm herding cats here.-Me"

"Talk about being offensive when people don't agree with your points. You aren't going to herd us into anything, because it's bogus-Destiny14"

When the point of the original post has been waylaid into a conversation about 317 vs 519 when the title clearly makes no such assertion and all I am doing is showing what the spell could possibly achieve and failing because of being called dumb etc., or accused of trying to influence people by starting new subjects, accused of agreeing with phantom points I have never made. Your fight is not with me. Read the title of the post. You should know me better than that.

"If your only point is that adding the concussion damage improved the nerfed version of the spell then...sure!-LALAKERCLAN"

See we agree. So now back to my original post.

"Now what I am eager to see is what is in store for wizards as far as disablers and other attack spells that would enable more styles of hunting or choices/abilities to hunt.-me"

So now that we have been well and truly nerfed but the spell is better than the original nerf even if I do not agree that this new spell is not where it should be what are we going to get in order to make wizards better? What disablers do we get now that that 519 needs to versions to do what one used to and less both less effectively than before. (Which could be applied to 535 btw.) How are our lores going to get better than pick 150-202 ranks in one lore to achieve anything of significance or in my case 122 ranks of one lore.

"If I can offer an observation CANDIDE - as with any other audience or population I might interact with, I find there are some members of that audience who are exceedingly passionate about their viewpoint. I know this 'cuz I r one in some cases. I would suspect we each of us at one time or another could acknowledge we were in that frame of mind.

When in that frame, I feel as though to me there's only one right answer. Clearly it would be the one that I hold. And just as clearly, my correct answer is totally unassailable - built from common sense and a wealth of experience, backed by data that supports exactly my position. And when I'm in this frame, any rejoinder other than total and absolute concurrence drives me completely mad. I mean, it's so obvious! And everyone else is just wrong. Period.-Doug"

I get it. What I don't see is how this was an attack on anyone else's position. At no point have I suggested that wizards shouldn't expect some relief from these nerfs/because of these nerfs.

I thought maybe I should just drop the thread and the faux narrative the thread has taken on, but I am amazingly stubborn. :)

GBB

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1617
Author: LALAKERCLAN
Date: on 02/24/2016 01:48 PM PST
Subject: Re: New New 519 vs old new 519


> air quotes

Honestly, I'll drop it after this, but this phrase, your usage...I don't think this means what you think it means.

Back on topic: what needs to happen with 519 to make it worthwhile?

Personally, I think we need a 900s review. I would rather bolt - if I want nasty CS spells I can play my sorcerer or roll a cleric. But right now bolting just isn't good enough and that's why 519 could be seen as an answer/alternate play style. Unfortunately 519 isn't good enough for that play style either. You'd be better off with 415.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1619
Author: MDEVEAU
Date: on 02/24/2016 08:17 PM PST
Subject: Re: New New 519 vs old new 519


Personally, I think we need a 900s review. I would rather bolt - if I want nasty CS spells I can play my sorcerer or roll a cleric. But right now bolting just isn't good enough and that's why 519 could be seen as an answer/alternate play style. Unfortunately 519 isn't good enough for that play style either. You'd be better off with 415.

They just need to make bolts aimable and the situation resolves itself. Given the fact that EVERY CLASS can eventually melee aim at the head with high proficiency (ambush skill), its makes little sense why the MASTERS OF BOLTING (spell aiming..duh) can't reduce the probability of their bolts hitting a less desirable target.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1620
Author: MDEVEAU
Date: on 02/24/2016 08:18 PM PST
Subject: Re: New New 519 vs old new 519


I get it. What I don't see is how this was an attack on anyone else's position. At no point have I suggested that wizards shouldn't expect some relief from these nerfs/because of these nerfs.

The problem is, your post has tones of support for a poorly timed and implemented adjustment to a staple spell. You can polish the turd anyway you like, but its still a turd.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1621
Author: CANDIDE
Date: on 02/24/2016 09:38 PM PST
Subject: Re: New New 519 vs old new 519


"The problem is, your post has tones of support for a poorly timed and implemented adjustment to a staple spell. You can polish the turd anyway you like, but its still a turd.-MDEVEAU"

Why polish a turd? I'm sure I haven't done that at all, but thank you for trying to figure it out for me. My tones of support are for moving forward with a plan and having something done sooner rather than later. To me this is project number 1 for Gemstone. I don't even want to put a toe in the pool towards the poor timing of the implementation or the need to adjust something that was not broken to most wizards considering the cost of the lore on the spell. Beat those dead horses all you want.


"They just need to make bolts aimable and the situation resolves itself. Given the fact that EVERY CLASS can eventually melee aim at the head with high proficiency (ambush skill), its makes little sense why the MASTERS OF BOLTING (spell aiming..duh) can't reduce the probability of their bolts hitting a less desirable target.-MDEVEAU" in response to

"Personally, I think we need a 900s review. I would rather bolt - if I want nasty CS spells I can play my sorcerer or roll a cleric. But right now bolting just isn't good enough and that's why 519 could be seen as an answer/alternate play style. Unfortunately 519 isn't good enough for that play style either. You'd be better off with 415.-LALAKERCLAN"

I have yet to try channeled bolts, do not think it is a great idea but I do know that AS/DS calculations isn't how my wizard dies. I have been hoping to add to wizard bolts so that they work well and accrue status effects in more ways. Freezing or some type of disabler, extra damage cycles (why should empaths have the only AS to CS bolt?), or some sort of high end bolt that does several things at once.

I would love the consolidation of bolts that has been discussed in a bunch threads. I wouldn't limit wizards arbitrarily though, 3-4 working CS spells, 2 or 3 working Boil earth type spells with status effects would be awesome.

GBB

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1622
Author: MDEVEAU
Date: on 02/25/2016 05:02 AM PST
Subject: Re: New New 519 vs old new 519


Not trying to figure out anything for you. Merely providing an interpretation of maybe why your posts may be getting a paradoxical response to what you had originally intended.

And I am sure most would agree as well that bolts should have some synergistic effects. I would imagine unlike your position about aiming, most would probably support the change especially given the fact that it may be easy to design and implement spell bolt aiming in some fashion (as channeling has already demonstrated) as compared to hoping they can commit the required developer and design time to an entire bolt overhaul, which let's face it, would take considerably longer given the resources upper management allots for it.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1623
Author: MDEVEAU
Date: on 02/25/2016 05:03 AM PST
Subject: Re: New New 519 vs old new 519


And to reiterate, the current version of immolation is a turd.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1624
Author: DRUMPEL
Date: on 02/25/2016 06:22 AM PST
Subject: Re: New New 519 vs old new 519


I don't know what you're all complaining about for 519 - it worked great! On almost every cast I tested, it outright killed my target. You guys must be doing something wrong.

Only the initial cast is posted for each target Incant (not EVOKED) from stance guarded level 81 wizard, Dark Elf 128 EL:E 65 MjE spells

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a kobold. 

 CS: +414 - TD: +3 + CvA: +25 + d100: +22 == +458
 Warding failed!

Wisps of black smoke swirl around a kobold and she bursts into flame causing 247 points of damage! The kobold crumples to a heap on the ground and dies.

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a mongrel kobold. 

 CS: +414 - TD: +12 + CvA: +25 + d100: +9 == +436
 Warding failed!

Wisps of black smoke swirl around a mongrel kobold and she bursts into flame causing 295 points of damage! The mongrel kobold falls to the ground and dies.

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a coyote. 

 CS: +414 - TD: +15 + CvA: +25 + d100: +60 == +484
 Warding failed!

Wisps of black smoke swirl around a coyote and he bursts into flame causing 314 points of damage! The coyote falls to the ground and dies.

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a fenghai. A fenghai glows brightly! 

 CS: +414 - TD: +156 + CvA: +25 + d100: +86 == +369
 Warding failed!

Wisps of black smoke swirl around a fenghai and it bursts into flame causing 234 points of damage! The fenghai falls to the ground motionless.

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a white centaur. 

 CS: +414 - TD: +69 + CvA: +11 + d100: +22 == +378
 Warding failed!

Wisps of black smoke swirl around a white centaur and she bursts into flame causing 244 points of damage! 

  ... 70 points of damage!
  Fire completely surrounds a white centaur.  Blood boils and heart stops.

The white centaur falls to the ground and dies.

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a cougar. 

 CS: +414 - TD: +66 + CvA: +25 + d100: +77 == +450
 Warding failed!

Wisps of black smoke swirl around a cougar and she bursts into flame causing 301 points of damage! The cougar crumples to the ground and dies.

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a shan ranger. 

 CS: +414 - TD: +165 + CvA: +17 + d100: +26 == +292
 Warding failed!

Wisps of black smoke swirl around a shan ranger and she bursts into flame causing 128 points of damage! 

  ... 60 points of damage!
  Left arm incinerated.  Unfortunate.
  The ranger's lantern shield falls to the ground.
  The shan ranger is stunned!
  ... 20 points of damage!
  Nasty burns to abdomen, a shan ranger shrieks in pain!
  ... 10 points of damage!
  Burst of flames to chest toasts skin nicely.

The flames around a shan ranger continue to burn!

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a shan warrior. 

 CS: +414 - TD: +132 + CvA: 0 + d100: +45 == +327
 Warding failed!

Wisps of black smoke swirl around a shan warrior and he bursts into flame causing 183 points of damage! 

  ... 60 points of damage!
  Flames engulf body.  Chest left a smoldering ruin.

The shan warrior yips in pain as he falls to the ground motionless.

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a mammoth arachnid. 

 CS: +414 - TD: +100 + CvA: +25 + d100: +44 == +383
 Warding failed!

Wisps of black smoke swirl around a mammoth arachnid and it bursts into flame causing 243 points of damage! 

  ... 70 points of damage!
  Flame burns through a mammoth arachnid's abdomen.  Greasy smoke billows forth.

The mammoth arachnid collapses to the ground and dies.

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a shan wizard. 

 CS: +414 - TD: +168 + CvA: +25 + d100: +57 == +328
 Warding failed!

Wisps of black smoke swirl around a shan wizard and he bursts into flame causing 202 points of damage! 

  ... 70 points of damage!
  Unbelievable heat melts a shan wizard's hand down to the wrist.
  The wizard's long dagger falls to the ground.

The shan wizard yips in pain as he falls to the ground motionless.

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a shan cleric. 

 CS: +414 - TD: +182 + CvA: +17 + d100: +65 == +314
 Warding failed!

Wisps of black smoke swirl around a shan cleric and he bursts into flame causing 141 points of damage! 

  ... 70 points of damage!
  Fire completely surrounds a shan cleric.  Blood boils and heart stops.

The shan cleric yips in pain as he falls to the ground motionless.

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a waern. 

 CS: +414 - TD: +200 + CvA: +25 + d100: +4 == +243
 Warding failed!

Wisps of black smoke swirl around a waern and she bursts into flame causing 104 points of damage! 

  ... 70 points of damage!
  Back burnt to the bone.  Smoke curls up from what's left of a waern.
  The waern is stunned!
  ... 25 points of damage!
  Burst of flames char chest a crispy black.
  ... 25 points of damage!
  Burst of flames char chest a crispy black.

The flames around a waern continue to burn!

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a dybbuk. 

 CS: +414 - TD: +196 + CvA: +25 + d100: +95 == +338
 Warding failed!

Wisps of black smoke swirl around a dybbuk and it bursts into flame causing 142 points of damage! 

  ... 65 points of damage!
  Head explodes, splattering sizzling bits of flesh and bone everywhere.

You hear a sound like a weeping child as a white glow separates itself from the dybbuk's body as it rises, disappearing into the heavens. The dybbuk falls to the ground motionless.

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation... Your spell is ready. You gesture at an eidolon. 

 CS: +414 - TD: +264 + CvA: +25 + d100: +31 == +206
 Warding failed!

Wisps of black smoke swirl around an eidolon and it bursts into flame causing 92 points of damage! 

  ... 45 points of damage!
  Huge hit explodes left arm into cold, viscous mist.
  When you look again, the arm has reformed.
  The eidolon is stunned!
  ... 15 points of damage!
  The eidolon fades for a second as the blow passes through the chest.
  ... 5 points of damage!
  Weak blow to neck wouldn't have scared the eidolon even if it were still alive.

The flames around an eidolon continue to burn!

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a dybbuk. 

 CS: +414 - TD: +199 + CvA: +25 + d100: +76 == +316
 Warding failed!

Wisps of black smoke swirl around a dybbuk and it bursts into flame causing 149 points of damage! 

  ... 75 points of damage!
  Left arm incinerated.  Unfortunate.
  The dybbuk is stunned!
  ... 30 points of damage!
  Burst of flames to right arm burns skin bright red.
  ... 25 points of damage!
  Minor burns to right leg.  That hurts a bit.

The flames around a dybbuk continue to burn!

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a waern. 

 CS: +414 - TD: +209 + CvA: +25 + d100: +48 == +278
 Warding failed!

Wisps of black smoke swirl around a waern and she bursts into flame causing 112 points of damage! 

  ... 70 points of damage!
  Fire completely surrounds a waern.  Blood boils and heart stops.

You hear a sound like a weeping child as a white glow separates itself from the waern's body as it rises, disappearing into the heavens. The waern falls to the ground and dies. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. The flames surrounding a dybbuk flare up violently... 

  ... 35 points of damage!
  Burst of flames to left hand fries palm.  Ouch!

The flames around a dybbuk continue to burn!

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a dybbuk. 

 CS: +414 - TD: +190 + CvA: +25 + d100: +15 == +264
 Warding failed!

Wisps of black smoke swirl around a dybbuk and it bursts into flame causing 95 points of damage! 

  ... 70 points of damage!
  Fire completely surrounds a dybbuk.  Blood boils and heart stops.

You hear a sound like a weeping child as a white glow separates itself from the dybbuk's body as it rises, disappearing into the heavens. The dybbuk falls to the ground motionless.

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a dybbuk. 

 CS: +414 - TD: +202 + CvA: +25 + d100: +75 == +312
 Warding failed!

Wisps of black smoke swirl around a dybbuk and it bursts into flame causing 178 points of damage! 

  ... 70 points of damage!
  Back burnt to the bone.  Smoke curls up from what's left of a dybbuk.
  The dybbuk is stunned!
  ... 50 points of damage!
  Skin and some muscle burnt off chest.
  ... 15 points of damage!
  Minor burns to chest.  That hurts a bit.

The flames around a dybbuk continue to burn!

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a waern. 

 CS: +414 - TD: +194 + CvA: +25 + d100: +59 == +304
 Warding failed!

Wisps of black smoke swirl around a waern and she bursts into flame causing 163 points of damage! 

  ... 80 points of damage!
  Flame burns through a waern's abdomen.  Greasy smoke billows forth.

You hear a sound like a weeping child as a white glow separates itself from the waern's body as it rises, disappearing into the heavens. The waern falls to the ground and dies.


As you can clearly see, the spell is awesome and works well on creatures well under and I mean, well under, my wizard's level.

-Drumpel (who posts this in jest - it's so dark and dreary in here right now)

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1626
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 02/25/2016 06:51 AM PST
Subject: Re: New New 519 vs old new 519


>I would also challenge the comment that the Wizard spell list is useless (with the exception of a spell, or a couple of spells). I see no way that bolts could be considered useless. More importantly, I see no way that at any point before post-cap, it would be beneficial for wizards to not have bolts. But most important of all, bolts are not CS-driven, they are AS-driven.

We can still bolt with 510, so technically Wizard circle bolts can be lived without. Plus, Barring magic immune stuff like vvrael, I don't know of anything that's immune to Hurl Boulder, but there are plenty of things things that are immune to lightning, water, acid, cold, and fire.

>the devs put ALL of our useful warding spells in the 500s. The only CS spell that even exists in the 900s is Weapon Fire, and ain't nobody training wizard ranks for that. By design, then, the devs offered a choice: higher useful CS for lower DS/TD, enchanting ability, and call wind potency. Since bolt spells don't get any better with over training it previously only really made sense, for offensive purposes, to train in the 500s. Thus the 500s is the wizard specific CS circle for which we need to overtrain to have any reliable chance of warding anything considering critter TD. Seems exactly like a profession circle to me.

Except now our 500s CS spells suck, so now we're stuck splitting our CS between MnE for 415, which is better than Immolate in every way, but still have to maintain a reasonable MjE CS for Mana Leech. Other than nobody, what other profession has to split their CS like that?

>Why polish a turd? I'm sure I haven't done that at all, but thank you for trying to figure it out for me. My tones of support are for moving forward with a plan and having something done sooner rather than later. To me this is project number 1 for Gemstone. I don't even want to put a toe in the pool towards the poor timing of the implementation or the need to adjust something that was not broken to most wizards considering the cost of the lore on the spell. Beat those dead horses all you want.

I think the point people are getting at is that your post could easily be misinterpreted to be in support of Immolate's current state, as a lot of people seem to have interpreted it as just that, myself included. And the last thing we want are GMs latching onto something like that and saying, "Someone said Immolate is fine, we have no further plans for the spell anymore!"

Slightly exaggerated, but you get the point.

If Simu wants wizards to bolt, they need to make bolts worth using. And the answer to that isn't to ruin everything else so that we're left with no other option. Bolt hunting in its current state is about as fun as playing a non-ambushing sword & board square.

The Wizard and MjE spheres need to be reworked. Throw our combat spells in one sphere, throw our utility spells in the other. I'm not gonna beat the dead horse by going down the list spell by spell, as that has already been done a million times by people on here, most likely falling on deaf ears.

415 is currently our best warding spell. Even without double casts from fire lore, it could still be argued as being better than Immolate in most cases. If Simu doesn't see this as a problem with Wizard/MjE spells being too weak now, then I'm just at a loss for words.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1627
Author: LALAKERCLAN
Date: on 02/25/2016 08:56 AM PST
Subject: Re: New New 519 vs old new 519


> 415 is currently our best warding spell. Even without double casts from fire lore, it could still be argued as being better than Immolate in most cases. If Simu doesn't see this as a problem with Wizard/MjE spells being too weak now, then I'm just at a loss for words.

Yep.

> Bolt hunting in its current state is about as fun as playing a non-ambushing sword & board square.

Yep. Inc 410, stance off, inc 906, inc 906, inc 906, inc 906, inc 904 ("I know it's pretty low on health by now!"), loot. Pretty much exactly the same as the old "at rat, at rat, at rat, at rat." Hooray!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1628
Author: RAGGLER
Date: on 02/25/2016 06:42 PM PST
Subject: Elemental Focus


With all the changes that wizards have gone through recently, I didn't notice this one until a few days ago. It looks like elemental focus can now be easily stacked to 4 hours with a duration of 20 minutes a cast. I now have people approaching me for wizard spellups and asking to include the full 4 hours of elemental focus. Was this really the intention when the spell was changed? I'm having a hard time understanding the decision to make a 13th level major circle spell so readily available to everyone.

I would make the argument that heroism, being a 15th rank major circle spell is close enough to elemental focus to compare. Heroism is only a slightly better buff to a wizard as elemental focus is to a cleric or empath, and heroism can only be shared for 1 minute if the caster has 65 blessing lore ranks. Heroism has also been one of the most closely guarded spells when it comes to availability on scrolls and merchant imbedables, and yet elemental focus now seems like it could become part of an everyday wizard spellup. I understand that heroism is a more powerful spell being a buff for melee AS and shear fear, but is it really that much more powerful to be so closely guarded when elemental focus is now on it's way to becoming as ordinary a spell as 401?

Isle Snack Muncher

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1629
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 02/25/2016 07:24 PM PST
Subject: Re: Elemental Focus


Isle Snack Muncher
With all the changes that wizards have gone through recently, I didn't notice this one until a few days ago. It looks like elemental focus can now be easily stacked to 4 hours with a duration of 20 minutes a cast. I now have people approaching me for wizard spellups and asking to include the full 4 hours of elemental focus. Was this really the intention when the spell was changed? I'm having a hard time understanding the decision to make a 13th level major circle spell so readily available to everyone.

That shouldn't have been possible and has now been corrected. Elemental Focus (513) is self-cast only now.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1630
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 02/25/2016 07:28 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Bumping this thread.

Is this being looked into or am I not understanding the new version of the spell correctly?

At what point is RT supposed to be incurred with the Disabler (Evoke) version of this spell? Is there anything that allows the critters to mitigate this?

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul." Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1631
Author: MDEVEAU
Date: on 02/25/2016 08:39 PM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


How can you question the power of our 19 mana disabler that does little damage? Come now, surely this is fun!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1632
Author: RAGGLER
Date: on 02/26/2016 06:32 AM PST
Subject: Re: Elemental Focus


Well that makes more sense, thanks!

Isle Snack Muncher

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1633
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 02/26/2016 06:53 AM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>> How can you question the power of our 19 mana disabler that does little damage? Come now, surely this is fun!

It's only 15 mana to cast as a disabler now but it doesn't seem to be working as advertised (or I'm not understanding correctly how it should be working). Clarification either way would be appreciated.

-- Robert

Bazzelwyn says, "Maul maul maul maul maul maul maul." Bazzelwyn says, "The answer is maul."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1634
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 02/26/2016 07:10 AM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>It's only 15 mana to cast as a disabler now but it doesn't seem to be working as advertised (or I'm not understanding correctly how it should be working). Clarification either way would be appreciated.

Just cast Mana Leech, it's the answer to everything including why our other spells suck.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1635
Author: DRUMPEL
Date: on 02/26/2016 09:20 AM PST
Subject: Re: Elemental Focus


>That shouldn't have been possible and has now been corrected. Elemental Focus (513) is self-cast only now. >GameMaster Estild

Odd....the spell has been able to be cast upon others for a long time, since I can recall.

I didn't personally have any reason to really ever do so, but I knew you could. The spell casts as a CS based version and if the target would ward it, nothing would happen.

Trying to get someone to 4 hours time for the spell was a tedious task since it costs 13 mana a shot and you only got a short duration for the casts (I thought they were around 10-15 minutes, though it could just have depending on the warding failure or perhaps wizard level???).

The old spell information from the GSIV page even lists that the spell can be cast upon others, but has a much shorter duration:

http://www.play.net/gs4/info/spells/spelllist.asp?circle=2#513

Type: Offense
This spell will give the caster/target a bonus of +20 to their spell Attack Strength (AS) and a penalty of -40 to their physical AS. The caster/target will receive a +1 bonus to their spell AS for every two Major Elemental spell ranks over 13, capped at the caster's level.
For example, if the caster has 23 Major Elemental spell ranks, the spell AS bonus will be +25.
With the increased bonus there is an increase in mana cost; 13 base mana +1 for every additional bonus gained.
The duration for 513 Elemental Focus is significantly shorter when cast at a target.

The target also did not get the added benefit that a self cast would give for the increased bolt AS, the target got a flat +20.

Most people never asked for this spell from a wizard just because the added bolt AS wasn't needed by others and it was just too mana and time consuming to get a decent duration.

-Drumpel

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1636
Author: DRUMPEL
Date: on 02/26/2016 09:25 AM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>It's only 15 mana to cast as a disabler now but it doesn't seem to be working as advertised (or I'm not understanding correctly how it should be working). Clarification either way would be appreciated.
Just cast Mana Leech, it's the answer to everything including why our other spells suck.
~ Methais

I don't really use the spell. I tried a few hunts to use the "disabler" version of the spell, but it seemed inconsistent. Most of the time the target would stop, drop and roll and stop doing other actions. Other times the target would basically just shrug it off while they still burned and tried to kick the crap out of me.

The disabler version seems to be kind of working.

I don't do fire lore with my wizard so I just pretty much avoid the spell anyway. Just my two cents.

-Drumpel

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1637
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 02/26/2016 09:32 AM PST
Subject: Re: Elemental Focus


Pretty sure the reason it was originally a warding spell when cast on other was due to the -40 physical AS penalty that came with it. Since the AS penalty was removed, the warding check went away with it.

102 worked the same way back when it was +50 DS/-50 AS. Not sure what the numbers are like on 102 now but if it still gives an AS penalty it should still have a warding check when cast on others.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1638
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 02/26/2016 09:48 AM PST
Subject: Re: Elemental Focus


>Not sure what the numbers are like on 102 now but if it still gives an AS penalty it should still have a warding check when cast on others.

It does still have the warding check

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1639
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 02/26/2016 09:57 AM PST
Subject: Re: Elemental Focus


Does it still give an AS penalty like it used to?

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1640
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 02/26/2016 10:00 AM PST
Subject: Re: Elemental Focus


>Does it still give an AS penalty like it used to?

yes

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1641
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 02/26/2016 10:01 AM PST
Subject: Re: Elemental Focus


>yes A good positive attitude never hurts.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1644
Author: STAVMAN
Date: on 02/26/2016 01:07 PM PST
Subject: Re: Elemental Focus


So why was it removed as castable on Others.....

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1645
Author: DRUMPEL
Date: on 02/26/2016 01:57 PM PST
Subject: Re: Elemental Focus


>So why was it removed as castable on Others.....

It's not a game breaking spell if others have an extra little boost to bolt AS, if you ask me. Just seems odd to remove it. If it did something more fun, like add crit weighting to bolts and gave a much lager AS boost, then I can understand why Wizard's can't be casting it up on others.

-Drumpel

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1646
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 02/27/2016 12:03 AM PST
Subject: Re: Elemental Focus


>It's not a game breaking spell if others have an extra little boost to bolt AS, if you ask me. Just seems odd to remove it. If it did something more fun, like add crit weighting to bolts and gave a much lager AS boost, then I can understand why Wizard's can't be casting it up on others.

Because we should stop giving away the farm with all wizard spells. 215 and similar major spirit spells cannot be other cast without significant amounts of lore.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1648
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 02/27/2016 05:12 AM PST
Subject: Re: Elemental Focus


>Because we should stop giving away the farm with all wizard spells. 215 and similar major spirit spells cannot be other cast without significant amounts of lore.

^ This. As if there isn't enough reason for wizards to be pocket characters for other professions as opposed to actually being played. Even moreso after these dumb nerfs.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1649
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 03/12/2016 08:05 AM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


I took a couple weeks off from hunting. Came back this weekend and this spell is still broken (or it just sucks if it is working as intended). The spell has definitely gotten bad enough that I've switched my tactics to using Call Wind a lot more frequently.

Is anyone looking into this? Is it working as intended? Have we just thrown up our arms with this spell and moved on to new projects? Bueller?

It's a sad day when it doesn't bother people when they have been set on fire any more!

Here are a couple more clips of this stellar spell in action. Some bonus irony in these clips in that I actually did kill a combatant using the disabler version of Immolation so I guess you can argue that at least he was disabled. And, of course, Call Wind didn't have any effect on the sentry. I'm going to try over training in wizard spell ranks in the near future to see if that gives a noticable boost to my Call Wind success rate. I am hoping it does given it's success against lower level critters (currently at 101 wizard spell ranks).


>incant set

INCANT CHANNEL Spells: 

 - None

INCANT EVOKE Spells: 

 -  519: Immolation

INCANT OPEN Spells: 

 - None

.cc immolation stance offensive incant immolation stance defensive

[Script finished!] You are now in an offensive stance. >You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation... Your spell is ready. You gesture at an ethereal triton sentry. 

 CS: +535 - TD: +483 + CvA: +25 + d100: +92 == +169
 Warding failed!

Wisps of black smoke swirl around an ethereal triton sentry and she bursts into flame causing 34 points of damage! 

  ... 50 points of damage!
  Brutal assault cuts a swath through the torso!
  Fortunately for the triton sentry, it doesn't need lungs.
  ... 30 points of damage!
  Strong blow to the head!
  The triton sentry enjoys the breeze.
  ... 10 points of damage!
  Direct assault cleaves straight through the breastbone.
  Alas, it mends before you can make a wish.
  ... 3 points of damage!
  Glancing blow to the right arm leaves a trail of vapor in its wake.

The flames around an ethereal triton sentry continue to burn! Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded. >look [Ruined Temple, Nexus] A single stone stand rests in the center of the balcony, and a smooth stone statue, masterfully carved to resemble a single droplet of water, is placed on top of it. Water gently flows back and forth about the area, making a soft splash as the waves contact the stone stand. Two stone causeways, one wide and one elaborately carved, ascend from the balcony to the east and west, and each is supported by a series of marble pillars. You also see an ethereal triton sentry and some muck. Obvious exits: none > Your disk arrives, following you dutifully. > .cc callwind

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.] stance offensive incant callwind stance defensive

[Script finished!] You are now in an offensive stance. >Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Call Wind... Your spell is ready. You gesture at an ethereal triton sentry. A gust of wind tugs at your sleeves. Suddenly, a fierce wind rips through the area, scattering everything in its path and making it difficult to remain standing. The wind then subsides. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded. > .cc 906

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.] stance offensive incant 906 stance defensive

[Script finished!] You are now in an offensive stance. >Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Fire... Your spell is ready. You gesture at an ethereal triton sentry. You hurl a stream of fire at an ethereal triton sentry! 

 AS: +510 vs DS: +425 with AvD: +34 + d100 roll: +16 = +135
  ... and hit for 27 points of damage!
  Direct assault cleaves straight through the breastbone.
  Alas, it mends before you can make a wish.

Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded. > .cc 906

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.] stance offensive incant 906 stance defensive

[Script finished!] You are now in an offensive stance. >Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Fire... Your spell is ready. You gesture at an ethereal triton sentry. You hurl a stream of fire at an ethereal triton sentry! 

 AS: +514 vs DS: +425 with AvD: +34 + d100 roll: +15 = +138
  ... and hit for 26 points of damage!
  Quick strike rips left arm open!
  To your dismay it quickly closes on its own.

Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded. > You feel more refreshed. > An ethereal triton sentry points an ethereal, clawed finger toward you! 

 CS: +451 - TD: +488 + CvA: +12 + d100: +6 - -5 == -14
 Warded off!

>


You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a triton radical. 

 CS: +535 - TD: +440 + CvA: +20 + d100: +42 == +157
 Warding failed!

Wisps of black smoke swirl around a triton radical and he bursts into flame causing 15 points of damage! 

  ... 25 points of damage!
  Flames incinerate left leg to the bone.  Not a pleasant sight.
  It is knocked to the ground!
  ... 20 points of damage!
  Flames incinerate muscle tissue in neck exposing the trachea.  More than you ever wanted to see.
  ... 10 points of damage!
  Burst of flames to head catches ears on fire!  Yeeoww!

The flames around a triton radical continue to burn! Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded. >look [Ruined Temple, Second Floor] Aside from the water that has flooded the area, the room is plain. A single iron sconce remains attached to the wall, and the remains of another rests below the surface of the water. You also see a triton radical that is lying down, a triton combatant, some muck and a door at the top of a small set of stairs. Obvious exits: northeast, east > Your disk arrives, following you dutifully. > [Roll result: 187 (open d100: 94)] A triton combatant rushes towards you and connects with a shoulder check! The triton combatant manages to knock you flat on your back! 17 hits!

Roundtime: 12 sec. Roundtime changed to 6 seconds. > .cc immolation com

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.] You feel more refreshed. [Script]> In an awe inspiring display of combat mastery, a triton combatant engages you in a furious dance macabre, spiralling into a blur of strikes and ripostes! A triton combatant thrusts with an oak-shafted silvery blue trident at you! 

 AS: +424 vs DS: +644 with AvD: +28 + d100 roll: +72 = -120
  A clean miss.

A triton combatant thrusts with an oak-shafted silvery blue trident at you! 

 AS: +424 vs DS: +644 with AvD: +28 + d100 roll: +15 = -177
  A clean miss.

A triton combatant thrusts with an oak-shafted silvery blue trident at you! 

 AS: +424 vs DS: +644 with AvD: +28 + d100 roll: +8 = -184
  A clean miss.

A triton combatant thrusts with an oak-shafted silvery blue trident at you! 

 AS: +424 vs DS: +644 with AvD: +28 + d100 roll: +74 = -118
  A clean miss.

[Script]>TARGET com stance offensive You are now targeting incant immolation stance defensive

[Script finished!] a triton combatant. >You are now in an offensive stance. > You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a triton combatant. 

 CS: +535 - TD: +390 + CvA: +20 + d100: +24 == +189
 Warding failed!

Wisps of black smoke swirl around a triton combatant and he bursts into flame causing 22 points of damage! 

  ... 35 points of damage!
  a triton combatant takes a breath of super-heated air and expires gasping.

The triton combatant collapses to the floor with a splash, gurgling once with a wrathful look on his face before expiring. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded. >stand You stand back up. >sea com You search the triton combatant. You discard the combatant's useless equipment. He didn't carry any silver. He had nothing of interest. A triton combatant's body sinks into the water, quickly scattering and dissolving out of sight. >look [Ruined Temple, Second Floor] Aside from the water that has flooded the area, the room is plain. A single iron sconce remains attached to the wall, and the remains of another rests below the surface of the water. You also see the purple Faulkil disk, a triton radical that is lying down, some muck and a door at the top of a small set of stairs. Obvious exits: northeast, east > .cc 906

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.] stance offensive incant 906 stance defensive

[Script finished!] You are now in an offensive stance. >Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Fire... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a triton radical. You hurl a stream of fire at a triton radical! 

 AS: +510 vs DS: +379 with AvD: +27 + d100 roll: +43 = +201
  ... and hit for 52 points of damage!
  Burst of flames char chest a crispy black.

Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded. > A triton radical stands up with a grunt.


-- Robert

Raggler squeakily says, "Muffins are also known to be one of the most healthiest foods in the world."

Raggler squeakily says, "It's a fact."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1650
Author: MDEVEAU
Date: on 03/12/2016 09:32 AM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


There is just no reason to cast it as a disabler. Its disheartening that development finds this acceptable alternative.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1652
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 03/12/2016 11:38 AM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


It's acceptable to have to cast Immolate 4783290427 times and plink them to death because we have Mana Leech, so says Estild.

The previous sentence may have been hyperbolic. But only slightly.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1653
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 03/12/2016 11:45 AM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


> have to cast Immolate 4783290427 times > The previous sentence may have been hyperbolic. But only slightly.

Only slightly? :|

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1655
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 03/12/2016 11:52 AM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>Only slightly? :|

Ok ok, fairly hyperbolic! Possibly somewhat and maybe even decent, but not heavy!

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1656
Author: LALAKERCLAN
Date: on 03/13/2016 10:14 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


519 just...ugh. It just isn't good enough.

Have you tried 415? Be curious to see your results with it. Although it does cost 20 mana rather than 15, you should see MUCH better damage and critters flat on their back in most instances. If you have the CS to ward that is.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1657
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 03/14/2016 07:09 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


I just wanna know how 415's damage is calculated, because I see numbers like this all the time:

You gesture at a spectral triton defender. 

 CS: +530 - TD: +396 + CvA: +20 + d100: +72 == +226
 Warding failed!

You blast a spectral triton defender for 26 points of damage. 

  ... 50 points of damage!
  Strong attack separates head from shoulders.
  Head disappears in the breeze as a new one forms on the triton defender's shoulders!
  The triton defender is knocked over by the blast!

A vortex of elemental energy suddenly strikes a spectral triton defender! 

 CS: +530 - TD: +396 + CvA: +20 + d100: +38 == +192
 Warding failed!

You blast a spectral triton defender for 74 points of damage. 

  ... 60 points of damage!
  Strike to the abdomen goes right through, leaving misty trails in its wake.

Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.


~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1658
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/03/2016 09:37 AM PDT
Subject: 518 incant bug?


>inc set

INCANT CHANNEL Spells: 

 -  519: Immolation

INCANT EVOKE Spells: 

 -  903: Minor Water
 -  909: Tremors
 -  902: Minor Elemental Edge

INCANT OPEN Spells: 

 -  518: Cone of Elements


>inc 518 >You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cone of Elements... Your spell is ready. You gesture. Nothing happens. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

Is this supposed to happen when there's no target in the room? The bandit hid.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1659
Author: ALSTHAR
Date: on 04/03/2016 07:40 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 518 incant bug?


If you INCANT (won't hit any other players, regardless of grouped with you or not) the spell will not hit hidden targets.

when EVOKED (which will also potentially hit players not grouped with you) it can hit hidden targets.

https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Cone_of_Elements_(518)

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1660
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/03/2016 08:42 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 518 incant bug?


I'm not talking about hidden targets, I'm talking about how INCANT is not supposed to cast the spell at all with no visible targets in the room instead of wasting mana.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1661
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 04/03/2016 08:45 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 518 incant bug?


>I'm not talking about hidden targets, I'm talking about how INCANT is not supposed to cast the spell at all with no visible targets in the room instead of wasting mana.

>INCANT OPEN Spells: >- 518: Cone of Elements

working as intended

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1662
Author: KITHUS
Date: on 04/03/2016 09:50 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 518 incant bug?


INCANT SET CLOSED 518

Keith/Brinret/Shiun

Brinret says, "Bring it on." A bolt of lightning streaks down from the sky and strikes Brinret! 

  ... 16428101 points of damage!
  Powerful blast reduces Brinret to a smoldering pile of ash!



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1663
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 04/10/2016 09:24 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


So seriously Estild, what's the scoop here? A full 15 seconds went by after I set the defender on fire and it just completely ignored the spell (this is the disabler version that I am casting in case there is any confusion). Is this working as intended or is there a bug that is hard to nail down? If the spell just isn't going to work (and it is intended) then there should at least be some messaging to this effect.


>You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a spectral triton defender. 

 CS: +535 - TD: +400 + CvA: +20 + d100: +21 == +176
 Warding failed!

Wisps of black smoke swirl around a spectral triton defender and he bursts into flame causing 33 points of damage! 

  ... 50 points of damage!
  Brutal assault cuts a swath through the torso!
  Fortunately for the triton defender, it doesn't need lungs.
  ... 10 points of damage!
  Direct assault cleaves straight through the breastbone.
  Alas, it mends before you can make a wish.
  ... 3 points of damage!
  Glancing blow to the left arm leaves a trail of vapor in its wake.

The flames around a spectral triton defender continue to burn! Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > Initial spell cast. 3 seconds of RT passed. Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded. >look [Ruined Temple, Second Floor] The ruined hall continues north and south, the environment oddly undisturbed, save for the occasional drop of water that falls from the ceiling. A pair of clay pots rests at the base of the wall, each filled to the brim with water. You also see a spectral triton defender and some muck. Obvious exits: north, south > Your disk arrives, following you dutifully. >.cc 906

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.] stance offensive incant 906 stance defensive

[Script finished!] You are now in an offensive stance. >Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Fire... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a spectral triton defender. You hurl a stream of fire at a spectral triton defender! 

 AS: +510 vs DS: +388 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +15 = +163
  ... and hit for 26 points of damage!
  Left ankle stung!
  The triton defender stamps in silent annoyance.

Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded. > Follow up spell cast. At least 6 seconds of RT has passed.

.cc 906

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.] stance offensive incant 906 stance defensive

[Script finished!] You are now in an offensive stance. >Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Fire... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a spectral triton defender. [Spell Hindrance for some pale layered leather hunts ridged with colorful braid lacing is 4% with current Armor Use skill, d100= 2] Your armor prevents the spell from working correctly. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded. > 2nd follow up spell has been cast. At least 9 seconds of RT has passed. 

Defender thinks to himself "Oh, it's one of those wizards, this should be easy..."

A spectral triton defender thrusts with a tarnished dark silver harpoon at you! 

 AS: +414 vs DS: +629 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +99 = -90
  A clean miss.

>

.cc 906

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.] stance offensive incant 906 stance defensive

[Script finished!] You are now in an offensive stance. >Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Fire... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a spectral triton defender. You hurl a stream of fire at a spectral triton defender! 

 AS: +514 vs DS: +281 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +37 = +296
  ... and hit for 94 points of damage!
  Attack whistles right through the lower back encountering little resistance!

Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded. > 3rd follow up spell has been cast. At least 12 seconds of RT has passed. .cc callwind

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.] stance offensive incant callwind stance defensive

[Script finished!] You are now in an offensive stance. >Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Call Wind... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a spectral triton defender. A gust of wind tugs at your sleeves. Suddenly, a fierce wind rips through the area, scattering everything in its path and making it difficult to remain standing. The wind then subsides. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded. > 4th follow up spell has been cast. At least 15 seconds of RT has passed.

The Defender thinks to himself "This bozo is toying with me! First he casts his feeble fire and now he's just fanning a breeze!"

In an awe inspiring display of combat mastery, a spectral triton defender engages you in a furious dance macabre, spiralling into a blur of strikes and ripostes! A spectral triton defender thrusts with a tarnished dark silver harpoon at you! You barely manage to fend off the attack with your runestaff!

A spectral triton defender thrusts with a tarnished dark silver harpoon at you! 

 AS: +404 vs DS: +629 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +72 = -127
  A clean miss.

A spectral triton defender thrusts with a tarnished dark silver harpoon at you! 

 AS: +404 vs DS: +629 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +31 = -168
  A clean miss.

A spectral triton defender thrusts with a tarnished dark silver harpoon at you! 

 AS: +404 vs DS: +629 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +10 = -189
  A clean miss.

> .cc 906

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.] stance offensive incant 906 stance defensive

[Script finished!] You are now in an offensive stance. >Wait 1 sec. > Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded. > .cc 906

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.] stance offensive incant 906 stance defensive

[Script finished!] You are now in an offensive stance. >Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Fire... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a spectral triton defender. You hurl a stream of fire at a spectral triton defender! 

 AS: +518 vs DS: +286 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +80 = +338
  ... and hit for 128 points of damage!
  Body swirls violently from a strong hit to the back.
  Neat effect!

The spectral form of the triton defender tenses in agony as he begins to dissolve from the bottom up! Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded. 5th follow up spell has been cast and the defender is finally dead. Where's the fire?!?


-- Robert

Raggler squeakily says, "Muffins are also known to be one of the most healthiest foods in the world."

Raggler squeakily says, "It's a fact."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1664
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 04/10/2016 09:32 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


I also submitted a bug on this as well since it's been some time since I initially posted the issue here and there hasn't been any fix / indication that it is being looked into:


Immolation (518) EVOKE version just doesn't have any follow up effect sometimes Submitted bug "Immolation (518) EVOKE version just doesn't have any follow up effect sometimes" to play.net's bug tracking database under category "Magic" with these details: "I posted a log under Gemstone IV->Wizards->Majore Elemental Circle->Post 1663 showing that a Defender was set on fire and no follow up effect after at least 15 seconds had gone by. Also additional logs in earlier posts of the same thread."


-- Robert

Raggler squeakily says, "Muffins are also known to be one of the most healthiest foods in the world."

Raggler squeakily says, "It's a fact."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1665
Author: DOUG
Date: on 04/10/2016 09:35 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Not that I think it matters in terms of the bug submission, but I'm curious.

Did the defender do something just before you hit it with Immolate? Perhaps an MStrike? Anything that would account for it standing around 9 to 12 seconds idle after being hit by the spell?

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1666
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 04/10/2016 10:02 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Maybe he was working on filing his taxes when I walked in... Here is the clip right before what I previously posted. Basically I had just entered the room.


>peer sYou peer south and see ...

[Ruined Temple, Second Floor] The ruined hall continues north and south, the environment oddly undisturbed, save for the occasional drop of water that falls from the ceiling. A pair of clay pots rests at the base of the wall, each filled to the brim with water. You also see a spectral triton defender and some muck. Obvious exits: north, south >Your disk arrives, following you dutifully. >s[Ruined Temple, Second Floor] The ruined hall continues north and south, the environment oddly undisturbed, save for the occasional drop of water that falls from the ceiling. A pair of clay pots rests at the base of the wall, each filled to the brim with water. You also see a spectral triton defender and some muck. Obvious exits: north, south >.cc immolation stance offensiveincant immolationstance defensiveYou are now in an offensive stance. >You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...


-- Robert

Raggler squeakily says, "Muffins are also known to be one of the most healthiest foods in the world."

Raggler squeakily says, "It's a fact."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1667
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 04/10/2016 10:05 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Also the Defender wasn't standing around idle. It took a couple attacks on me pretty much ignoring that fact that I had cast Immolate on it.

So clearly it wasn't in RT preventing Immolate from working if that's the thought.

-- Robert

Raggler squeakily says, "Muffins are also known to be one of the most healthiest foods in the world."

Raggler squeakily says, "It's a fact."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1668
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 04/10/2016 10:12 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Immolate is such trash now.

I'd like to try and convince myself that this bug still hasn't been addressed because the spell as a whole is getting "fixed" but I've pretty much run out of hope for this shell of a once great spell.

Do yourself a favor and switch to 415, you'll hate things slightly less.


~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1669
Author: DOUG
Date: on 04/10/2016 10:13 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>>So clearly it wasn't in RT preventing Immolate from working if that's the thought.

Yep, after 9 seconds in your log? Or so? Still - damned annoying, and it was only a passing curiosity. Thanks for sharing.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1670
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 04/10/2016 10:21 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Yeah. It's swing was somewhere between 6-9 seconds so maybe it suffered 7 seconds of RT if that is how immolation works now.

I'm still unclear if RT is incurred as part of the initial cast, dropping to the ground and rolling, or what. I'm pretty sure I asked for some clarification on that earlier in this thread.

Also, I hate posting long logs but not sure how else to show the issue / help get it resolved at this point.

-- Robert

Raggler squeakily says, "Muffins are also known to be one of the most healthiest foods in the world."

Raggler squeakily says, "It's a fact."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1671
Author: MDEVEAU
Date: on 04/10/2016 11:36 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Working as intended! Phear the power of the firemage!!!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1672
Author: DRUMPEL
Date: on 04/10/2016 09:29 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>So seriously Estild, what's the scoop here? A full 15 seconds went by after I set the defender on fire and it just completely ignored the spell (this is the disabler version that I am casting in case there is any confusion). Is this working as intended or is there a bug that is hard to nail down? If the spell just isn't going to work (and it is intended) then there should at least be some messaging to this effect.

Don't feel bad. I've seen similar issue against several minotuar warriors when I was playing around with immolate a month or more back. Magi it worked just fine, the warriors don't stun so maybe that's part of the issue??? I don't really use the spell at all, just wanted to see if it was viable for my wizard (who has zero fire lore). I'd say 99% of the time the spell worked as intended for the evoke version. Almost all the evoke casts I made caused the warrior to drop and roll and burn over 2-3 more casts before I killed them. The odd couple that I successfully hit with evoke immolate they continued to attack like nothing had happened.....

So, I guess the spell is working as intended?

It doesn't matter to my wizard how the spell works (before the nerf or now), but it does seem to be a little broken still. Hopefully they can figure it out.

-Drumpel

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1673
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 04/13/2016 09:06 AM PDT
Subject: Cold Snap (512) Released!


The Wizard's Guild has released new information about the previous Ice Patch spell, allowing wizards greater mastery over freezing their opponents. Henceforth, Cold Snap has replaced the previous spell, allowing a wizard to freeze multiple targets in the room simultaneously.

When cast the spell will subject non-grouped targets to a warding. Targets that fail to ward become rooted. The root status effect causes a target to have -50 AS to melee attacks, -25 AS to ranged attacks, and -25 DS (but does not stack with the -DS penalties from other status conditions such as being knocked down). Most importantly, rooted creatures also can't perform maneuvers. The spell will affect up to 4 targets, increasing by +1 per seed 5 summation of Elemental Lore, Water ranks. The duration of the root will be ((warding margin / 5) + 3), capped at 25 seconds.

Casting the spell a second time will completely encase any already affected target that fails to ward in an ice block, immobilizing them and refreshing the duration.

Training in Elemental Lore, Water makes it possible to cast Minor Water (903) at the target, which will be converted to Minor Cold (1709), for a number of casts equivalent to the bonus level of a seed 10 summation of ranks, while still costing 3 mana. This is the same benefit that previously existed under a targeted Ice Patch.

If a target is encased in ice (512x2) and the caster CHANNELs a bolt that causes a rank 5+ impact (505, 510, 1709) critical, there is an (Elemental Lore, Water skill / 3) chance that the target location will shatter, completely destroying it and causing 50% of the target's max health in concussion damage.

If an affected target receives any fire damage (i.e. from 906, 908, 111, etc), the effect ends (since it's melting the ice) and the target receives a steam critical, similar to how trolls react to fire.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1674
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 04/13/2016 09:09 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


Is the Water Walking effect still applicable?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1676
Author: DOUG
Date: on 04/13/2016 09:18 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


Time to go get a bandit bounty and see if hidden creatures are targeted.

And of course, being the evil wizard portrayer I am, if after encasing them, if an escort can simply be walked past them. . .

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1677
Author: PC1234
Date: on 04/13/2016 10:08 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


If a target is encased in ice (512x2) and the caster CHANNELs a bolt that causes a rank 5+ impact (505, 510, 1709) critical, there is an (Elemental Lore, Water skill / 3) chance that the target location will shatter, completely destroying it and causing 50% of the target's max health in concussion damage.

This is neat, but it should happen on the first cast, not the second. 24 mana to set this up is too much, and wastes too much time. For 33 mana and 9s of cRT I can kill any creature on my Sorcerer. I'm also not forced to channel a follow up spell in offensive stance.

I'm also wondering when you expect people to use this spell over 410. If the target is being encased in ice, wouldn't they be cold? Wouldn't they shiver? You could have at least added RT to the creature based upon warding failure. I don't currently see any reason to use this spell over 410. It's 100% better to put something into RT than to "root" them where they can still attack, and worse, cast spells.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1678
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/13/2016 10:18 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>If a target is encased in ice (512x2) and the caster CHANNELs a bolt that causes a rank 5+ impact (505, 510, 1709) critical, there is an (Elemental Lore, Water skill / 3) chance that the target location will shatter, completely destroying it and causing 50% of the target's max health in concussion damage.

Thanks for the update to the previously useless spell, but this is the weakest mass CS disabler of any of the pures. The entire point of a mass disabler is to immobilize a group of creatures so that they cannot maneuver OR cast, the second being far more important for many areas, and this is something all of the other CS based disablers can achieve.

I also agree 24 mana and 6 seconds of setup is too much, especially considering wizards have no CS booster that affects this such as 340. By the time you're in offensive and CHANNELing for 3 seconds of hard RT, at least 9 seconds of the maximum 25 will be gone. And for most creatures that one is trying to immobilize in the first place, the warding margin won't be sufficient enough to guarantee much more than that amount of time.

Secondly, does the above quote mean that 505 now falls under the impact table instead of unbalance, or is that just an exception for use with this spell?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1679
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/13/2016 10:20 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>If a target is encased in ice (512x2) and the caster CHANNELs a bolt that causes a rank 5+ impact (505, 510, 1709) critical, there is an (Elemental Lore, Water skill / 3) chance that the target location will shatter, completely destroying it and causing 50% of the target's max health in concussion damage.

Ironically, if one is optimized in the Major Elemental circle to be able to use this spell, one is likely to be heavily trained in fire lore as well to get some use out of the crippled 519. Which leaves no room for water lore, so this benefit is completely moot. The spread of lores all over the place for a single spell results in mediocrity of every spell and across the board.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1680
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/13/2016 10:24 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>If a target is encased in ice (512x2) and the caster CHANNELs a bolt that causes a rank 5+ impact (505, 510, 1709) critical, there is an (Elemental Lore, Water skill / 3) chance that the target location will shatter, completely destroying it and causing 50% of the target's max health in concussion damage.

Also, it seems strange that the follow up requires the use of a single-target spell when the entire point of using a mass disabler is because there are crowd issues.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1681
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/13/2016 10:36 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


This worked out not at all in bandits, by the way. It prevented them from doing exactly nothing besides going back into hiding. This was all over the span of about 10 seconds for 2 casts during which point both old and new bandits kept swinging away.

[Teras Isle, Crossroads] A few ramshackle structures have been thrown up here, most little more than leather tents pitched by fishermen to protect their skiffs and nets during the winter. The Hog's Pen Tavern with its walls of stacked tanik logs is the sturdiest structure in sight. At the rear of the tavern, there is a pile of refuse and a trough that overflows with left-over meals and rain water. The sounds of a bustling town echo down the best-kept of the various roads and paths that meet here. You also see a dwarven thug. Also here: X, XX Obvious paths: northeast, east, west Your blue and white penguin followed. J>A half-krolvin brigand leaps out of his hiding place! A half-krolvin brigand swings a broadsword at X! 

 AS: +445 vs DS: +452 with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +92 = +114
  ... and hits for 3 points of damage!
  Tap to the arm pricks some interest but not much else.

J>A giantman outlaw leaps out of his hiding place! A giantman outlaw swings a handaxe at XX! 

 AS: +444 vs DS: +277 with AvD: +23 + d100 roll: +40 = +230
  ... and hits for 15 points of damage!
  Bones in left arm crack.

J>pre 512 You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cold Snap... Your spell is ready. J>cas You gesture. An airy mist rolls into the area, carrying a harsh chill with it. 

 CS: +539 - TD: +429 + CvA: -1 + d100: +52 == +161
 Warding failed!

The mist leaves a half-krolvin brigand's lower half encased in a thick block of ice. 

 CS: +539 - TD: +424 + CvA: -10 + d100: +69 == +174
 Warding failed!

The mist leaves a giantman outlaw's lower half encased in a thick block of ice. 

 CS: +539 - TD: +444 + CvA: -10 + d100: +53 == +138
 Warding failed!

The mist leaves a dwarven thug's lower half encased in a thick block of ice. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. J>A giantman highwayman leaps out of his hiding place! A giantman highwayman swings a mace at XX! 

 AS: +435 vs DS: +271 with AvD: +18 + d100 roll: +89 = +271
  ... and hits for 15 points of damage!
  Neck vertebrae snap.
  He is stunned!

J>A dwarven thug removes a plain wooden arrow from in his quiver. A dwarven thug fires a plain wooden arrow at X! 

 AS: +417 vs DS: +505 with AvD: +34 + d100 roll: +80 = +26
  A clean miss.

The wooden arrow breaks apart and crumbles away. J>A human rogue leaps out of her hiding place! [Roll result: 74 (open d100: 72)] A human rogue feints low, but XX isn't fooled for a second. J>pre 512 You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cold Snap... Your spell is ready. J>cas You gesture. An airy mist rolls into the area, carrying a harsh chill with it. 

 CS: +539 - TD: +429 + CvA: -10 + d100: +30 == +130
 Warding failed!

The mist leaves a human rogue's lower half encased in a thick block of ice. 

 CS: +539 - TD: +444 + CvA: 0 + d100: +37 == +132
 Warding failed!

The mist leaves a giantman highwayman's lower half encased in a thick block of ice. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. J>A giantman highwayman swings a mace at XX! Unable to focus clearly, XX blindly evades the attack! J>A half-krolvin brigand swings a broadsword at X! 

 AS: +395 vs DS: +662 with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +83 = -155
  A clean miss.

J>A giantman outlaw swings a handaxe at XX! 

 AS: +394 vs DS: +532 with AvD: +23 + d100 roll: +80 = -35
  A clean miss.

J>A dwarven thug removes a plain wooden arrow from in his quiver. A dwarven thug fires a plain wooden arrow at X! 

 AS: +417 vs DS: +515 with AvD: +34 + d100 roll: +68 = +4
  A clean miss.

The wooden arrow breaks apart and crumbles away. J>A human rogue swings a bastard sword at XX! XX skillfully blocks the attack with his shield! J>A giantman highwayman swings a mace at XX! Amazingly, XX manages to block the attack with his shield! J>A dwarven thug pulls out a small statue and rubs it! A faint silvery glow surrounds a dwarven thug. J>The block of ice encasing a dwarven thug's lower half melts away.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1682
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 04/13/2016 10:42 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


> Also, it seems strange that the follow up requires the use of a single-target spell when the entire point of using a mass disabler is because there are crowd issues.

It seems to me that there might be a spell that does something that works with this problem...

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1683
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/13/2016 10:48 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>It seems to me that there might be a spell that does something that works with this problem...

515 does not work when you have to CHANNEL a single-target bolt for 3 seconds of hard RT.

Regardless, the rootedness lasted barely over 10 seconds in total and did absolutely nothing. The above poster was correct that 410 is by far the superior solution to this as even though it's not guaranteed, it's guaranteed to do something that actually immobilizes a group by putting them in RT. If your point was to provide a mass CS disabler that does nothing, you succeeded. For what was requested, an effective CS-based mass disabler to compensate for all the luck rolls, this is not it.

I don't actually see how this is any less useless than Ice Patch after seeing it in practice.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1684
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 04/13/2016 10:49 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


> 515 does not work when you have to CHANNEL a single-target bolt for 3 seconds of hard RT.

I wasn't talking about 515.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1685
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/13/2016 10:54 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>I wasn't talking about 515.

The announcement wording seemed to indicate that 518 wouldn't apply here, but it's good if that's not the case. It's still ineffective and useless, however, given the 9 seconds necessary to achieve this effect during which the creatures are still attacking and casting, if it hasn't worn off completely already. Compare that to the instant immobilization (complete maneuver, attack, and casting) of any other mass CS-based disabler that starts at the first second of the cast, and you'll see why this completely misses the point.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1686
Author: DOUG
Date: on 04/13/2016 12:43 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


Ugh.

it appears, based on a quick scan of the log, like there may be two or three defects in the spell.

1) -50 AS? Doesn't seem to be in play - but might be the fact that I only quickly scanned, rather than calculating.

2) The spell seems to target first 'unrooted' creatures. I see no attempt to 'fully encase' those bandits already 'rooted'.

3) The 'mist rolling into the area' doesn't seem to be able to target hidden NPCs (ugh!).

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1687
Author: KITHUS
Date: on 04/13/2016 12:54 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


It's a nice addition and another incentive for water mages. Thanks Konacon. Although I have to say I hate you because it's making the decision not to hunt with my wizard harder and harder.

Keith/Brinret/Shiun

Brinret says, "Bring it on." A bolt of lightning streaks down from the sky and strikes Brinret! 

  ... 16428101 points of damage!
  Powerful blast reduces Brinret to a smoldering pile of ash!



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1688
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 04/13/2016 01:13 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


Doug
The spell seems to target first 'unrooted' creatures. I see no attempt to 'fully encase' those bandits already 'rooted'.

This was a tough situation as in some cases you might want to first recast the spell to try to root anything missed the first time. Other times you might want to recast just to completely freeze (immobilize) any already affected targets. So, to give you some control over it, if you open cast (don't specify a target), the spell will first try to find any targets that aren't already affected and will root them. However, if you cast the spell at a target that is already affected by the spell, it will then try to find other targets that are also already affected and fully freeze them as well.

Doug
The 'mist rolling into the area' doesn't seem to be able to target hidden NPCs (ugh!).

It was affecting hidden and invisible targets, it just wasn't revealing them, which was a bug. It should now reveal them if they fail to ward the spell.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1689
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 04/13/2016 01:24 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


> It's a nice addition and another incentive for water mages. Thanks Konacon.

Not me! Estild did this!

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1690
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/13/2016 01:32 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>It was affecting hidden and invisible targets, it just wasn't revealing them, which was a bug. It should now reveal them if they fail to ward the spell.

It still doesn't.

Also, it's essentially useless. It doesn't stop them from attacking or casting and you know what's better than -50 AS... -50 DS, which a knockdown achieves via 410. Only neither are useful or reliable still in an uphunting scenario, which is precisely what a CS-based mass disabler was supposed to address.

[Teras Isle, Volcanic Slope] Rough rock claws like an angry beast and the slope quickly steepens. The island stands out below you like a map upon a table: the dark green jumble of the Greymist, the lighter tones of the grasslands, and the deep blue of the surrounding sea. You also see a hardened lava bed. Also here: X, XX Obvious paths: down Your blue and white penguin followed. A human outlaw suddenly leaps from his hiding place! A half-elven brigand suddenly leaps from his hiding place! A halfling outlaw suddenly leaps from his hiding place! J>XX's group just entered a hardened lava bed. [Teras Isle, Hardened Lava Bed] A small canyon runs down the mountain side. Hardened lava fills it almost completely, providing a natural road that is welcome after the harsh rock below. The air is thick with the smell of sulfur and yellow clouds rise fitfully from somewhere above. This is one bed that nobody is likely to be sleeping in. Also here: X, XX Obvious paths: out Your blue and white penguin followed. J>XX's group just went out. [Teras Isle, Volcanic Slope] Rough rock claws like an angry beast and the slope quickly steepens. The island stands out below you like a map upon a table: the dark green jumble of the Greymist, the lighter tones of the grasslands, and the deep blue of the surrounding sea. You also see a halfling outlaw, a half-elven brigand, a human outlaw and a hardened lava bed. Also here: X, XX Obvious paths: down Your blue and white penguin followed. J>You feel at full magical power again. J>A half-elven brigand swings a broadsword at XX! 

 AS: +428 vs DS: +480 with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +98 = +75
  A clean miss.

J>[Roll result: 170 (open d100: 69)] A human outlaw reaches out and grabs at the end of XX's nose! XX howls in pain as a human outlaw tweaks her nose! J>inc 512 You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cold Snap... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a halfling outlaw. An airy mist rolls into the area, carrying a harsh chill with it. 

 CS: +539 - TD: +444 + CvA: -10 + d100: +7 == +92
 Warded off!

The mist leaves a thin layer of ice on a halfling outlaw's lower half, but he easily shakes it off. 

 CS: +539 - TD: +399 + CvA: -10 + d100: +89 == +219
 Warding failed!

The mist leaves a half-elven brigand's lower half encased in a thick block of ice. 

 CS: +539 - TD: +424 + CvA: -2 + d100: +83 == +196
 Warding failed!

The mist leaves a human outlaw's lower half encased in a thick block of ice. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. J>X looks determined and focused. In a breathtaking display of ability and combat mastery, X whirls in a fury of unrelenting strikes and ripostes! X swings a monir-hafted eahnor fang at a halfling outlaw! 

 AS: +493 vs DS: +358 with AvD: +37 + d100 roll: +78 = +250
  ... and hits for 40 points of damage!
  Mighty blow cracks several ribs.

X swings a monir-hafted eahnor fang at a half-elven brigand! 

 AS: +493 vs DS: +293 with AvD: +37 + d100 roll: +31 = +268
  ... and hits for 42 points of damage!
  Large gash to the left arm, several muscles torn.
  The half-elven brigand is stunned!

X swings a monir-hafted eahnor fang at a human outlaw! 

 AS: +493 vs DS: +320 with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +84 = +286
  ... and hits for 66 points of damage!
  Solid blow gouges a chunk out of the human outlaw's left leg.
  The human outlaw is stunned!

J>A halfling outlaw slips into hiding. J>inc 512 You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cold Snap... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a human outlaw. An airy mist rolls into the area, carrying a harsh chill with it. 

 CS: +539 - TD: +399 + CvA: -10 + d100: +64 == +194
 Warding failed!

The mist builds upon the existing thick block of ice, expanding it to cover a half-elven brigand's entire body, trapping him in an icy tomb. 

 CS: +539 - TD: +424 + CvA: -2 + d100: +49 == +162
 Warding failed!

The mist builds upon the existing thick block of ice, expanding it to cover a human outlaw's entire body, trapping him in an icy tomb. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

J>A halfling outlaw leaps out of his hiding place! [Roll result: 110 (open d100: 33)] A halfling outlaw kicks his leg at XX's groin and connects! For just a moment, XX's face goes entirely motionless. 

 ...9 damage!

J>A human outlaw struggles against the forces that bind him. J>X swings a monir-hafted eahnor fang at a halfling outlaw! 

 AS: +493 vs DS: +358 with AvD: +37 + d100 roll: +48 = +220
  ... and hits for 34 points of damage!
  Mighty blow cracks several ribs.

J>The block of ice encasing a human outlaw melts away.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1691
Author: DOUG
Date: on 04/13/2016 02:03 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


Excellent, Estild - appreciate the clarification, and the fix!

I'm not terribly concerned (yet) about the costs associated with immobilize (24) especially when compared to Bind, at 14 - which only affects a single target.

Sadly, I'll likely continue to prefer Call Wind for bandits, but. . . I have options!

What I really, really need is a way to keep them pesky destroyers from maneuvering.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1692
Author: DOUG
Date: on 04/13/2016 02:13 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>>It still doesn't.

As you continue to gather live field intelligence, and if the situation should present again - can you do a quick 'search' to see if you can find the hidden NPC and if it was affected? Curiosity, mostly - I'd rather the 'hiding' be broken. But it might help troubleshoot the problem.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1693
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/13/2016 02:16 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>I'm not terribly concerned (yet) about the costs associated with immobilize (24) especially when compared to Bind, at 14 - which only affects a single target.

I don't consider this an option. Also, 316 is only 16 mana for a much more powerful effect. This doesn't even do the job of 410. It's not even so much the cost though as the 6 seconds of CT just to set up for the kill, during which time the creatures are actually not disabled in any way except maneuvers.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1694
Author: HJELTE
Date: on 04/13/2016 02:19 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


I'd say this is a clearly beneficial adjustment, and filling a great niche for a CS disabler.

Thank you for the birthday gift Estild!

~Whirlin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1695
Author: LALAKERCLAN
Date: on 04/13/2016 02:23 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


Hoo boy, here comes ELR part deux, "The Underwhelming."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1696
Author: DOUG
Date: on 04/13/2016 02:33 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>>I don't consider this an option.

I hear ya.

>>Also, 316 is only 16 mana for a much more powerful effect.

It's also comparing a profession to non profession based list. I know many don't agree with me on this point, but that doesn't make it inaccurate. I do note, however, the interesting dual nature of the Censure spell. It's a valid point that I'm now just a bit envious. . .

>>This doesn't even do the job of 410.

Against bandits, perhaps not. I see other uses, though. Not enough to simply say 'it works!' or 'it doesn't work!', since I haven't tested. But I do see possibilities. Let's run the gamut of other creature types first. For example, I'll tell you using 410 against crawlers is not a winning overall strategy, nor frankly is call wind. However, I was quite happy with the old Ice Patch against crawlers, because of the 'rooting'. Just one example.

>>It's not even so much the cost though as the 6 seconds of CT just to set up for the kill, during which time the creatures are actually not disabled in any way except maneuvers.

I've seen this a couple times - a quick note of correction seems to be in order. It's 3 seconds of CT during which the NPC is disabled from maneuvers and at significant minuses for AS, Bolt and DS. CS remains unaffected. At the start of the subsequent 3 seconds of CT (the second cast) those that fail are immobilized. So no - in fact they don't stay totally active, nor do they stay totally active 6 seconds.

I put 'setting up for the kill' in a different bucket, though - so not trying to address that side of the dissatisfaction.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1697
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 04/13/2016 02:34 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


I just fixed another issue where the spell wasn't correctly picking up additional targets when mixing non-rooted and rooted targets. e.g. you would cast the spell and it could affect up to 4 targets. If there were 7 creatures in the room and your first cast caught 4 of them, the second cast would then only root the remaining 3, but should have also immobilized one of the first four (since it can affect up to 4 targets per cast).

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1698
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/13/2016 02:36 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>can you do a quick 'search' to see if you can find the hidden NPC and if it was affected?

Didn't work. Also, having fire based spells "melt" the ice is exceptionally group unfriendly given the other pures generally use 111 as a group spell.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1699
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 04/13/2016 02:42 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


I can certainly remove the ice > fire > steam interaction, if there is a consensus. It's there for flavor and extra damage, not as any attempt to weaken the spell.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1700
Author: DOUG
Date: on 04/13/2016 02:42 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>>Didn't work. Also, having fire based spells "melt" the ice is exceptionally group unfriendly given the other pures generally use 111 as a group spell.

Looks like Estild might have just got to that.

And I was giving some thought to exactly the problem with fire as you expressed.

As a suggestion for future improvement (along the lines of the continued 'choose your element' improvement suggestions), perhaps we could be granted a way to have

Stone (rock gathers, rock immobilizes, boulder shatters)

Air (cone encases, cone immobilizes, Tonis bolt smears)

Fire (lava encases, lava immobilizes, Boil Earth / Immolate / Minor / Major Fire roasts)

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1701
Author: DOUG
Date: on 04/13/2016 02:43 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>>It's there for flavor and extra damage, not as any attempt to weaken the spell.

That might work, too - or, how about bringing in the Censure method of moving through thresholds.

Encased plus fire = free but with extra damage

Immobilized plus fire = encased but with extra damage.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1702
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/13/2016 02:47 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>I can certainly remove the ice > fire > steam interaction, if there is a consensus. It's there for flavor and extra damage, not as any attempt to weaken the spell.

I would rather the double 512 fully encase and immobilize the creatures, since I don't know how something can still attack, cast, or buff itself up via other means if the entire body is supposed to be encased in ice. This still doesn't address the issue of the duration being too short after taking 6 seconds to set up, but it would be a start.

By the way, bandits are the weakest capped creatures, so if I can barely survive a hunt with 512 as a mass disabler, I'm certainly not going to be the one to go testing 512 with any other post-cap creatures.

People use mass disablers to disable, not for flavor or extra damage, unless it does both disable and damage. I would actually rather it be moved to 535 and be similar to 135 in effectiveness and lethality since 535 is completely useless now and can go to 512 instead.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1703
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/13/2016 02:52 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>I put 'setting up for the kill' in a different bucket, though - so not trying to address that side of the dissatisfaction.

I don't see "setting up for the kill" as serving any purpose though if it's not completely effective. By setting up it means it must fully immobilize the creatures (spell, maneuvers) on a guaranteed basis, otherwise there is no reason for me to not just gamble anyway and go ahead for the kill. There is no niche scenario where I would use a disabler that is 99% likely to do nothing effective anyway, especially for your crawler scenario. Pretty much in any situation that is actually dangerous, the minimal disabling effects would be unlikely to take hold or would wear off before any offensive action could be taken against the crowd.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1704
Author: PCOFFEY77
Date: on 04/13/2016 03:00 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>I would rather the double 512 fully encase and immobilize the creatures, since I don't know how something can still attack, cast, or buff itself up via other means if the entire body is supposed to be encased in ice.

I had figured this would be the case until I had a seer cast at me and stun me even though I had him completely frozen in ice...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1705
Author: DOUG
Date: on 04/13/2016 03:06 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>>I had figured this would be the case until I had a seer cast at me and stun me even though I had him completely frozen in ice...

Yeah, if that's happening, I'll bet that should be a defect. Might still be a few of those lingering. Immobilized shouldn't lead to anything other than some vocalizations and the like.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1706
Author: DOUG
Date: on 04/13/2016 03:09 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>> By setting up it means it must fully immobilize the creatures (spell, maneuvers) on a guaranteed basis,

Thanks for clarifying. To me, that's 'fully disabling the creature', not 'setting up for the kill'. I can provide examples, but it's really just a minor clarification point - I see your perspective even if I still am of the opinion that nothing should be 'absolute'.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1707
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 04/13/2016 03:15 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>This was a tough situation as in some cases you might want to first recast the spell to try to root anything missed the first time. Other times you might want to recast just to completely freeze (immobilize) any already affected targets. So, to give you some control over it, if you open cast (don't specify a target), the spell will first try to find any targets that aren't already affected and will root them. However, if you cast the spell at a target that is already affected by the spell, it will then try to find other targets that are also already affected and fully freeze them as well

I'm assuming EVOKE currently has no use with this spell, so why not make it so open cast goes after unrooted targets first, and EVOKE targets rooted stuff first?

I think having to cast it twice to encase something is a bit much though, at least when dealing with single targets. I think a better approach would be to only require one cast for single target, and for multiple targets either let the required casts be reduced to 1 either via training, or give any endroll over 150 the 2x cast effect. It's not so much about mana (well I mean it is, but yeah) as it is about time. As already stated, ewave is still better in multi-target situations, as it drops their DS (I don't know how the numbers work out for +50 to endroll vs. rank 5 crit + water lore to shatter a body part, but I'd imagine they'd be similar) and puts them in RT preventing all actions for 10 mana vs 24 for 512. It's cheaper, safer, and gives you a nice addition to your endroll.

I'm not a fan of water lore being required for the shatter part since a boulder smashing into a block of ice shouldn't matter. Maybe instead, let the shatter effect do more concussion damage when Minor Cold is used and/or require a lower crit threshold, as water lore is required to cast that spell, and leave 505/510 shatters as is but without the lore requirement.

I like the concept and synergy the spell brings, but the costs and time investment are too high compared to what we already have with no lore requirement, and for roughly half the mana cost and setup time.

One thing that will always keep this spell inferior though is its complete and total uselessness against non-crittable targets, even if you just wanted to use it for the concussion damage, as 512 does literally nothing vs non-crittable targets (ewave usually doesn't work vs these targets either, but call wind does on a lot of them), and there are tons of non-crittables at cap. I wouldn't mind seeing the spell still work on those critters for the concussion damage, even if that's all you get from it. Cold mages are already useless vs most undead, and this spell has no use at all vs anything that doesn't crit, undead or otherwise. I always thought having stuff that doesn't crit in this game was stupid anyway, but that's a whole different subject for another folder that would be pointless to bring up anyway.

I know that applies to a lot of spells for any class, but the difference is this spell requires a dedicated water lore training path with some seed 10 thrown into the mix to take full advantage of, and water currently has the least overall combat effectiveness compared to the other elements, leaving little to no incentive to give up fire or air lore in favor of this while only being able to 2x lores.

I'm sure more stuff is coming though so I'm aware that that could all change, but this spell has no use at all vs anything non-crittable and that will always be a detriment to this spell that doesn't apply to most other spells.

I think a few tweaks could bring this spell from "I guess it's better than Ice Patch" to "This spell is omg omg omg omg!"

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1708
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 04/13/2016 03:29 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>Stone (rock gathers, rock immobilizes, boulder shatters)

>Air (cone encases, cone immobilizes, Tonis bolt smears)

>Fire (lava encases, lava immobilizes, Boil Earth / Immolate / Minor / Major Fire roasts)

That's another thing I was hoping would become a thing. Instead of a spell being tied to one element, let the spell's chosen element be tied to your training. Similar to 415/518, where you can either cast a random element or your attuned element. Except tie it to lore training instead of attunement, because attunement is stupid and stuff and can't be changed.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1711
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 04/13/2016 03:40 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


PCOFFEY77
I had figured this would be the case until I had a seer cast at me and stun me even though I had him completely frozen in ice...

If this is happening, please post a complete log the situation.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1712
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 04/13/2016 03:46 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>If this is happening, please post a complete log the situation

An ithzir seer just arrived.

An ithzir seer says, "I think the cooldown for Rapid Fire should be removed."


~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1713
Author: PCOFFEY77
Date: on 04/13/2016 03:50 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


I do have to say, this is kind of fun...

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cold Snap... Your spell is ready. You gesture at an Ithzir scout. An airy mist rolls into the area, carrying a harsh chill with it. 

 CS: +504 - TD: +457 + CvA: +25 + d100: +32 == +104
 Warding failed!

The mist builds upon the existing thick block of ice, expanding it to cover a war griffin's entire body, trapping it in an icy tomb. 

 CS: +504 - TD: +440 + CvA: +19 + d100: +75 == +158
 Warding failed!

The mist builds upon the existing thick block of ice, expanding it to cover an Ithzir adept's entire body, trapping him in an icy tomb. 

 CS: +504 - TD: +444 + CvA: +19 + d100: +53 == +132

--- Lich: exec1 has exited. 

 Warding failed!

The mist builds upon the existing thick block of ice, expanding it to cover an Ithzir seer's entire body, trapping him in an icy tomb. 

 CS: +504 - TD: +365 + CvA: +9 + d100: +92 == +240
 Warding failed!

The mist builds upon the existing thick block of ice, expanding it to cover an Ithzir scout's entire body, trapping her in an icy tomb. 

 CS: +504 - TD: +450 + CvA: +19 + d100: +38 == +111
 Warding failed!

The mist builds upon the existing thick block of ice, expanding it to cover an Ithzir seer's entire body, trapping him in an icy tomb. 

 CS: +504 - TD: +377 + CvA: -2 + d100: +62 == +187
 Warding failed!

The mist builds upon the existing thick block of ice, expanding it to cover an Ithzir janissary's entire body, trapping him in an icy tomb. 

 CS: +504 - TD: +453 + CvA: +19 + d100: +52 == +122
 Warding failed!

The mist builds upon the existing thick block of ice, expanding it to cover an Ithzir adept's entire body, trapping him in an icy tomb.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1714
Author: PCOFFEY77
Date: on 04/13/2016 03:51 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>If this is happening, please post a complete log the situation.

I went and tried it out again and everything seemed to be working correctly...

An Ithzir seer struggles to move. Finding her actions fruitless, she looses an eerily echoing shout! "Itona ti! Te lanak mtor!"

Maybe I just missed where it melted off?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1715
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 04/13/2016 04:14 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


One other note I forgot to mention. If a target is drenched from the Minor Water (903 or 518) lore effect or if you cast the spell in a watery room, the affected target(s) get -25 TD.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1716
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/13/2016 04:21 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>One other note I forgot to mention. If a target is drenched from the Minor Water (903 or 518) lore effect or if you cast the spell in a watery room, the affected target(s) get -25 TD.

Does it work on undead and can creatures cast if encased in a block of ice?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1717
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 04/13/2016 04:29 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>One other note I forgot to mention. If a target is drenched from the Minor Water (903 or 518) lore effect or if you cast the spell in a watery room, the affected target(s) get -25 TD.

Are there any plans to make this spell (or any possible incoming cold based spells) have use vs. non-crittable targets?

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1718
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/13/2016 04:36 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>I can certainly remove the ice > fire > steam interaction, if there is a consensus. It's there for flavor and extra damage, not as any attempt to weaken the spell.

Thanks for fixing the encasing issue. The bandits are now properly entombed if warded twice, though 4 targets is not many and again a 4-way lore split is too much to expect. 135 and 214 do not require lores to hit a certain number of targets, and 316 uses religion lore, which is the same as the offensive attack, so the SLR yields synergies that the ELR does not.

I would prefer that the ice > fire > steam interaction be removed, as I don't feel the minor (~10 point) damage from the steam flares do anything to offset the removal of the entombment/immobilization.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1719
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/13/2016 04:40 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>I just fixed another issue where the spell wasn't correctly picking up additional targets when mixing non-rooted and rooted targets. e.g. you would cast the spell and it could affect up to 4 targets. If there were 7 creatures in the room and your first cast caught 4 of them, the second cast would then only root the remaining 3, but should have also immobilized one of the first four (since it can affect up to 4 targets per cast).

I would rather in this scenario that the second cast first immobilize the first 4 before rooting the remaining 3, as 7 creatures that still attack and cast is far worse than 3 remaining that do so.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1720
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 04/13/2016 04:43 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


DESTINY14
I would rather in this scenario that the second cast first immobilize the first 4 before rooting the remaining 3, as 7 creatures that still attack and cast is far worse than 3 remaining that do so.

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Wizards/Major%20Elemental%20Circle/view/1688

Then just cast it directly at one of the targets that are already rooted.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1722
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 04/13/2016 04:43 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>I would prefer that the ice > fire > steam interaction be removed, as I don't feel the minor (~10 point) damage from the steam flares do anything to offset the removal of the entombment/immobilizatio

Throwing my name in on this too.

Instead, just make them explode into bits. That'd be much better.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1723
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/13/2016 04:45 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>Then just cast it directly at one of the targets that are already rooted.

That only guarantees that the one target is immobilized while the other 6 are still just rooted. Also, in a big swarm, checking and targeting the right creature will more likely result in your death than just skipping the failed disabler and casting for the kill more times. End result is it doesn't achieve what a disabler is supposed to achieve, in general.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1724
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 04/13/2016 04:49 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


DESTINY14
That only guarantees that the one target is immobilized while the other 6 are still just rooted.

No.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1725
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/13/2016 04:52 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>No.

Anything that can't be set by INCANT to target the same creature(s) and root the first 4 automatically isn't useful in terms of a disabler given how often creatures run in and out while swarming.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1726
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 04/13/2016 04:58 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>No.

https://www.play.net/simucon/memory/1999/wed/wed003.jpg

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1727
Author: PCOFFEY77
Date: on 04/13/2016 05:09 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>An Ithzir seer struggles to move. Finding her actions fruitless, she looses an eerily echoing shout! "Itona ti! Te lanak mtor!"

I thought about this...

If someone or something is entirely encased in a block of ice, how are they able to speak or do anything? Should almost even suffocate them to death if it lasts long enough. Is it just up to the head?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1728
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/13/2016 05:11 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


The water lore is a non-starter because to get this remotely effective, you will be completely useless on every other offensive and defensive level. Talk about a one trick pony, which is what I thought we were getting away from. Instead we're forced into other pony paths that are all mediocre.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1731
Author: RROY
Date: on 04/13/2016 05:25 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


An ithzir seer just arrived.

An ithzir seer says, "Unlike my fellow seeker, I think the 1 sec casting rt should be removed and I'm good with the cooldown should be removed on Rapid Fire."



Just an elf about town...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1732
Author: RROY
Date: on 04/13/2016 05:28 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


Overall this looks like a nice improvement over the old spell. Can't wait to give it a go when I have more time to play...

Just an elf about town...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1734
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 04/13/2016 05:46 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


An ithzir seer just arrived.

An ithzir seer says, "Let it be stated for the record that I am not one of those ugly mid level things from atop that snowy rock you morons call Aenatumgana. I am an ithzir seer. I see things. Like how I see that both Methais and RROY are correct, and I believe both the 1 second RT and the cooldown should go away. But if I had to choose just one, I would go with RROY's suggestion of removing the RT but keeping the cooldown."

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1735
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 04/13/2016 06:17 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


You may now EVOKE Cold Snap (512). Doing so, it will always prefer to hit already affected targets (thus to more easily upgrade the root to an immobile). The previous targeting logic no longer applies.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1736
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/13/2016 06:29 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>You may now EVOKE Cold Snap (512). Doing so, it will always prefer to hit already affected targets (thus to more easily upgrade the root to an immobile). The previous targeting logic no longer applies.

Thanks for this update.

What about the non-corporeal undead targets that aren't affected by 512? They are also the ones most likely to be present in a watery room where crowd control is an important issue.

It would be better if the follow-up bolt burst effect is based on whatever your attuned element is, interacting with the ice block in a manner similar to 502's vulnerability. In any case, by the time one casts 512 twice and then CHANNELs 518, the room could probably be cleared by other means already.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1737
Author: PCOFFEY77
Date: on 04/13/2016 06:35 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


Not sure if this has been fixed but I saw this in my logs -

Just as you 512, the Ithzir seer shimmers and fades away, leaving you gesturing at nothingness!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1738
Author: DOUG
Date: on 04/13/2016 07:18 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>>the Ithzir seer shimmers and fades away,

Ok, that does it!

Estild, wizards and / or sorcerers need a way to reach into these interdimensional pockets all these creatures create and use to punish them severely for thinking they can get away from masters of the elements or masters of the planes.

Brief 1/10th-serious note - instantiated hunting for the best class(es) in the lands!

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1739
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/13/2016 07:23 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>Estild, wizards and / or sorcerers need a way to reach into these interdimensional pockets all these creatures create and use to punish them severely for thinking they can get away from masters of the elements or masters of the planes.

In all seriousness, instead of the useless "group" invisibility (aka disband), how about having the ability to fade away upon being attacked?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1740
Author: DOUG
Date: on 04/13/2016 08:03 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>>how about having the ability to fade away upon being attacked?

Oh yeah. Big picture - you have time wizards (current stack) and planar wizards (parallel spell levels but instead of resetting time or winding back the clock or stopping, you get the fade / reappear / blink / auto-ambush style actions).

Like it.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1741
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/13/2016 11:39 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


We still have no disabler at all, never mind mass, for things that don't knock down such as non-corporeal undead and that prevent them from casting. As evidenced by Faulkil's posts, 519 isn't working at all as a single target disabler even if those creatures could be warded.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1742
Author: SJOSEPH1
Date: on 04/14/2016 02:17 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


I think the spell might be bugged I have 80 Ranks of water law but spell is only converting 1 minor water cast into minor cold instead of 6. After the first cast I just get normal minor water being used.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1743
Author: PCOFFEY77
Date: on 04/14/2016 05:00 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>I think the spell might be bugged I have 80 Ranks of water law but spell is only converting 1 minor water cast into minor cold instead of 6. After the first cast I just get normal minor water being used.

Keep an eye on how quickly the stuff melts away... I noticed this when I was going over the logs a bit last night. I thought I had them completely encased yet when I re-read them I noticed it had melted off and that's why it changed to water - for me at least. I'd also ask to maybe take a look at this because the encasement doesn't seem to last very long on many creatures.

I do miss the chance to crit damage though, why did damage have to be removed from the spell?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1744
Author: KITHUS
Date: on 04/14/2016 05:05 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


I do miss the chance to crit damage though, why did damage have to be removed from the spell?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that a mass disabler that deals good damage as well does not fit into the 12th rank of a major circle. It might be asking way too much but if people are really sad about the loss of the damaging, single-target version of the spell perhaps it could be added back in as a CHANNEL? Just a thought.

Keith/Brinret/Shiun

Brinret says, "Bring it on." A bolt of lightning streaks down from the sky and strikes Brinret! 

  ... 16428101 points of damage!
  Powerful blast reduces Brinret to a smoldering pile of ash!



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1745
Author: PCOFFEY77
Date: on 04/14/2016 05:19 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>It might be asking way too much but if people are really sad about the loss of the damaging, single-target version of the spell perhaps it could be added back in as a CHANNEL?

That would be nice. The ice encasement was fun for a bit, but now I'm not really enjoying it as much. It melts off way to fast, and there might be a bug as mentioned before with the 903 follow-up casting. I have 50 ranks of water Lore and should be hitting more than once on a recall.

>incant 512 You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cold Snap... Your spell is ready. You gesture at an Ithzir scout. An airy mist rolls into the area, carrying a harsh chill with it. 

 CS: +504 - TD: +377 + CvA: +9 + d100: +27 == +163
 Warding failed!

The mist leaves an Ithzir scout's lower half encased in a thick block of ice. The scintillating silver light surrounding the runestaff fades some. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.


First one's good!

>incant 903 Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Water... Your spell is ready. You gesture at an Ithzir scout. You hurl a stream of water at an Ithzir scout, but it freezes just before impact. Carefully, you summon the chunk of ice back to your hand... You hurl a chunk of ice at an Ithzir scout! 

 AS: +494 vs DS: +276 with AvD: +31 + d100 roll: +54 = +303
  ... and hit for 113 points of damage!
  Icy blast takes right arm off at the shoulder!
  The scout's crystal-tipped staff falls to the ground.
  The Ithzir scout is stunned!

[exec1]>stance defensive 

 As you hit, your runestaff flares with a bolt of lightning! 

  ... 10 points of damage!
  Heavy spark to left arm.  Gonna hurt tomorrow.

The scintillating silver light surrounding the runestaff fades some. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

Second one:

>incant 903 Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Water... Your spell is ready. You gesture at an Ithzir scout. You hurl a stream of water at an Ithzir scout! 

 AS: +495 vs DS: +270 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +65 = +315
  ... and hit for 132 points of damage!
  Blow to chest frees a rib to spear a lung and heart!

[exec1]>stance defensive 

  The water completely drenches an Ithzir scout!

The scintillating silver light surrounding the runestaff fades some. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

Third, still no block of ice:

>incant 903 Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Water... Your spell is ready. You gesture at an Ithzir scout. You hurl a stream of water at an Ithzir scout! 

 AS: +496 vs DS: +248 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +92 = +365
  ... and hit for 103 points of damage!
  Strong blow to left arm breaks it!

The Ithzir scout clutches at his wounds as he falls, the life fading from his eyes. The scintillating silver light surrounding the runestaff fades some. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1746
Author: SJOSEPH1
Date: on 04/14/2016 05:40 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


Still no difference only works on the first cast

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1747
Author: SJOSEPH1
Date: on 04/14/2016 05:44 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


You gesture at a lesser minotaur. An airy mist rolls into the area, carrying a harsh chill with it. 

 CS: +417 - TD: +299 + CvA: +8 + d100: +34 == +160
 Warding failed!

The mist leaves a lesser minotaur's lower half encased in a thick block of ice. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. >stance off You are now in an offensive stance. >incant 903 Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Water... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a lesser minotaur. You hurl a stream of water at a lesser minotaur, but it freezes just before impact. Carefully, you summon the chunk of ice back to your hand... You hurl a chunk of ice at a lesser minotaur! 

 AS: +422 vs DS: +249 with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +76 = +278
  ... and hit for 105 points of damage!
  Massive blow removes the lesser minotaur's left forearm at the elbow!
  The lesser minotaur is stunned!

Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. >incant 903 Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Water... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a lesser minotaur. You hurl a stream of water at a lesser minotaur! 

 AS: +422 vs DS: +244 with AvD: +23 + d100 roll: +69 = +270
  ... and hit for 84 points of damage!
  Strong blow to abdomen!
  The water completely drenches a lesser minotaur!

 Your driftwood staff emits a searing bolt of lightning! 

  ... 15 points of damage!
  Mild electric jolt sends the lesser minotaur into spasms.

Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. >incant 903 Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Water... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a lesser minotaur. You hurl a stream of water at a lesser minotaur! 

 AS: +422 vs DS: +235 with AvD: +23 + d100 roll: +35 = +245
  ... and hit for 70 points of damage!
  Hard strike to right arm breaking tendons and bone!
  The water completely drenches a lesser minotaur!

Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > Reeling, a lesser minotaur's eyes loll in their sockets. >incant 903 Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Water... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a lesser minotaur. You hurl a stream of water at a lesser minotaur! 

 AS: +422 vs DS: +224 with AvD: +23 + d100 roll: +83 = +304
  ... and hit for 96 points of damage!
  Strong blow to abdomen!

A low gurgling sound comes from deep within the chest of the lesser minotaur as he falls slack against the ground. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. >incant 903 You do not currently have a target. >loot >stow left You search the lesser minotaur. You discard the minotaur's useless equipment. He didn't carry any silver. He had nothing of interest. The strong stench of bovine sweat is all that remains as a lesser minotaur's body decays away. > 



your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
 Skill Name                         | Current Current
                                    |   Bonus   Ranks
 Physical Fitness...................|      82      18
 Arcane Symbols.....................|     170      70
 Magic Item Use.....................|     175      75
 Spell Aiming.......................|     254     154
 Harness Power......................|     254     154
 Elemental Mana Control.............|     150      50
 Spirit Mana Control................|      96      22
 Elemental Lore - Water.............|     180      80
 Perception.........................|      74      16
 Climbing...........................|     120      30
 Swimming...........................|       5       1

Spell Lists 

 Major Elemental....................|              74

Spell Lists 

 Minor Elemental....................|              71

Spell Lists 

 Wizard.............................|              43



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1748
Author: PFLATS
Date: on 04/14/2016 05:49 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>We still have no disabler at all, never mind mass, for things that don't knock down such as non-corporeal undead and that prevent them from casting. As evidenced by Faulkil's posts, 519 isn't working at all as a single target disabler even if those creatures could be warded.

Perhaps Weapon Fire could be moved to the Arcane Circle and replaced with a disabler that's more effective against creatures?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1749
Author: KITHUS
Date: on 04/14/2016 05:56 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


Perhaps Weapon Fire could be moved to the Arcane Circle and replaced with a disabler that's more effective against creatures?

I'd love to see Weapon Fire moved to Arcane and 512 moved to the 900s personally.

Keith/Brinret/Shiun

Brinret says, "Bring it on." A bolt of lightning streaks down from the sky and strikes Brinret! 

  ... 16428101 points of damage!
  Powerful blast reduces Brinret to a smoldering pile of ash!



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1750
Author: JOEKRYSTEL
Date: on 04/14/2016 06:49 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


I was thinking, the spell starts at the bottom and freezes up (as it started with ice patch) any chance the frozen solid effect could happen on the first shot if the target is prone? This would make it a nice follow up to my current opening gambit of 410. If it worked but for a shorter duration, I could pick ewave/snap for the safety of rt and then frozen benifits or snap/snap for longer freeze times if I am hunting things that can't ward me while rooted and nt frozen.

Sorry for the formating, posting from my cell. AIM: GS4Menos

>Like men we'll face the murderous, cowardly pack, >Pressed to the wall, dying, but fighting back!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1751
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/14/2016 06:55 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>I'd love to see Weapon Fire moved to Arcane and 512 moved to the 900s personally.

512 would be completely useless in the 900s, so you have my veto for this idea.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1753
Author: DOUG
Date: on 04/14/2016 07:50 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>>We still have no disabler at all, never mind mass, for things that don't knock down such as non-corporeal undead and that prevent them from casting.

This is actually one of the primary reasons I like Call Wind (912). In the case of noncorps, it will 'buffet' them, and I'm pretty sure that acts the same way as knocking them down - with the sole exception of not giving a DS advantage. I even believe (but have no proof to offer) that it affects the noncorp creature's stance, in just the same was as any other.

And the kicker? A vortex, if you're really skilled, keeps them occupied (in RT lock) as long as it is in existence. By the way - that's the same as any flying creature with Call Wind. So, in fact we do have at least one.

Doug


[The Rift] You notice a vaespilon, an enormous rift crawler and a lost soul. Obvious paths: east, southwest, northwest > The flames surrounding an enormous rift crawler flare up violently... 

  ... 15 points of damage!

The flames around an enormous rift crawler continue to burn! >incant 912 A vaespilon draws an ancient sigil in the air. > Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Call Wind... Your spell is ready. You gesture at an enormous rift crawler. A gust of wind tugs at your sleeves. Suddenly, a fierce wind rips through the area, scattering everything in its path and making it difficult to remain standing. A vaespilon is knocked over by the wind. A lost soul is buffeted by the great wind! Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > A vaespilon is suddenly overtaken by a windy vortex! >

Tha-thump.

> A spectral fog rolls through the area.

>l You're now aiming at the left eye of your target when using a ranged weapon, or while ambushing. > [The Rift] You notice a windy vortex, a vaespilon (prone), an enormous rift crawler and a lost soul. Obvious paths: east, southwest, northwest > An enormous rift crawler charges at you! You barely dodge the attack! > [new506]>incant 506 The flames surrounding an enormous rift crawler flare up violently... 

  ... 15 points of damage!

The flames around an enormous rift crawler continue to burn! > You recite a series of mystical phrases while raising your hands, invoking Celerity... Your spell is ready. You gesture. You suddenly start moving light-footedly. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > [ Celerity: +0:01:00, 0:01:00 remaining. ] A large flying insect flits unwittingly into a windy vortex, and is promptly sent flying back out. It lands on your watered silk satchel with a loud SPLAT. A lost soul wanders into the path of a windy vortex! >

Tha-thump.

>incant 519 An enormous rift crawler charges at you! 

 AS: +429 vs DS: + --- with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +66 = - ---
  A clean miss.

> You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation... Your spell is ready. You gesture at an enormous rift crawler. 

 CS: + --- - TD: +451 + CvA: +25 + d100: +36 == + ---
 Warding failed!

Wisps of black smoke swirl around an enormous rift crawler and it bursts into flame causing 29 points of damage! As the rift crawler dies, the beast's massive body curls in on itself, convulses once, and stills. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > A large flying insect flits unwittingly into a windy vortex, and is promptly sent flying back out. It lands on your fluffy dandelion with a loud SPLAT. A lost soul is suddenly overtaken by a windy vortex! >

Tha-thump.

>l [The Rift] You notice a windy vortex, a vaespilon (prone), an enormous rift crawler (dead) and a lost soul. Obvious paths: east, southwest, northwest > A vaespilon points a skeletal finger at you! 

 CS: +388 - TD: + --- + CvA: +12 + d100: +40 - -5 == - ---
 Warded off!

>target vae You are now targeting a vaespilon. > The windy vortex swirls around one last time, then disappears. > A vaespilon slowly rises to her feet. >incant 519 You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a vaespilon. 

 CS: + --- - TD: +452 + CvA: +15 + d100: +6 == + ---
 Warding failed!

Wisps of black smoke swirl around a vaespilon and she bursts into flame causing 2 points of damage! 

  ... 35 points of damage!
  Burst of flames to back fries shoulder blades.  Youch!
  The vaespilon is stunned!
  ... 30 points of damage!
  Burst of flames to left leg burns skin bright red.
  ... 25 points of damage!
  Minor burns to right leg.  That hurts a bit.

The flames around a vaespilon continue to burn! Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. >

Thum-thump.

> You feel more refreshed. > The wall of force disappears from around a vaespilon. >incant 912 Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Call Wind... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a vaespilon. A gust of wind tugs at your sleeves. Suddenly, a fierce wind rips through the area, scattering everything in its path and making it difficult to remain standing. A vaespilon is knocked over by the wind. A lost soul is buffeted by the great wind! The wind then subsides. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > You're now aiming at the left eye of your target when using a ranged weapon, or while ambushing. > The flames surrounding a vaespilon flare up violently... 

  ... 20 points of damage!
  Minor burns to right arm.  That hurts a bit.

The flames around a vaespilon continue to burn! >

Tha-thump.

> A vaespilon rolls around on the ground, trying to smother the flames that surround it. > The rift crawler's translucent outer husk melts away, its smoky inner core disappearing in greyed ribbons on the air. > A vaespilon slowly rises to her feet. > A lost soul swings a scorched black ball and chain at you! 

 AS: +420 vs DS: + --- with AvD: +17 + d100 roll: +40 = - ---
  A clean miss.

> The flames surrounding a vaespilon flare up violently... 

  ... 25 points of damage!
  Minor burns to chest.  That hurts a bit.

> incant 912 Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Call Wind... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a vaespilon. A gust of wind tugs at your sleeves. Suddenly, a fierce wind rips through the area, scattering everything in its path and making it difficult to remain standing. A vaespilon is knocked over by the wind. A lost soul is buffeted by the great wind! Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > A lost soul wanders into the path of a windy vortex! >

Tha-thump.

> You're now aiming at the left eye of your target when using a ranged weapon, or while ambushing. >l [The Rift] You notice a windy vortex, a vaespilon (prone) and a lost soul. Obvious paths: east, southwest, northwest > A vaespilon is suddenly overtaken by a windy vortex! >incant 519 You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a vaespilon. 

 CS: + --- - TD: +452 + CvA: +15 + d100: +68 == + ---
 Warding failed!

Wisps of black smoke swirl around a vaespilon and she bursts into flame causing 57 points of damage! 

  ... 55 points of damage!

You hear a sound like a weeping child as a white glow separates itself from the vaespilon's body as it rises, disappearing into the heavens. The vaespilon wails in terrifying pain one last time and lies still. The very powerful look leaves a vaespilon. The white light leaves a vaespilon. A vaespilon glances around, looking a bit less confident. The deep blue glow leaves a vaespilon. The tingling sensation and sense of security leaves a vaespilon. The brilliant luminescence fades from around a vaespilon. The silvery luminescence fades from around a vaespilon. The bright luminescence fades from around a vaespilon. The light blue glow leaves a vaespilon. The powerful look leaves a vaespilon. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > 

                   You should be leaving anytime, now.

A n'ecare pads in silently! > You're now aiming at the right leg of your target when using a ranged weapon, or while ambushing. > A windy vortex bends and twists as it swirls around the area. A lost soul wanders into the path of a windy vortex! > A n'ecare swings a long blackened jeddart-axe at you! 

 AS: +386 vs DS: + --- with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +18 = - ---
  A clean miss.

> You suddenly feel less light-footed. > [new506]>incant 506

Tha-thump.

> You recite a series of mystical phrases while raising your hands, invoking Celerity... Your spell is ready. You gesture. You suddenly start moving light-footedly. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > [ Celerity: +0:01:00, 0:01:00 remaining. ] loot You search the vaespilon. You discard the vaespilon's useless equipment. She didn't carry any silver. She had nothing of interest.

[You have been awarded an Enhancive Pause Pass! You will be able to pause the beneficial effects of your enhancive items and prevent charge loss 1 time.]

All the malice and magic that once held the vaespilon together dissipates, leaving nothing but a husk which crumbles to dust. >The windy vortex swirls around one last time, then disappears. > A n'ecare swings a long blackened jeddart-axe at you! 

 AS: +386 vs DS: + --- with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +62 = - ---
  A clean miss.

>l [The Rift] You notice a n'ecare and a lost soul. Obvious paths: east, southwest, northwest >incant 912 Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Call Wind... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a lost soul. A gust of wind tugs at your sleeves. Suddenly, a fierce wind rips through the area, scattering everything in its path and making it difficult to remain standing. A n'ecare is knocked over by the wind. A lost soul is buffeted by the great wind! The wind then subsides. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > You're now aiming at the left eye of your target when using a ranged weapon, or while ambushing. >

Tha-thump.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1754
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 04/14/2016 08:03 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>I'd love to see Weapon Fire moved to Arcane and 512 moved to the 900s personally.

If this were to happen, it would need to be part of a complete spell overhaul. Otherwise all this would do is force you to split your CS, as is the case with 415 builds currently.

Unless you're cool with not being able to use Mana Leech on anything near your level of course.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1758
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 04/14/2016 08:35 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


Original Ice Patch: http://i.imgur.com/F6hSGkx.jpg

Ice Patch 2.0: http://i.imgur.com/0f1NdOq.jpg

Cold Snap: http://i.imgur.com/TFRvswT.jpg

Now we just need this: http://i.imgur.com/OTcJ8jB.png

Which of course critters will target first and have the 2x Cold Snap effect applied to them when they touch it.

But we also need a panic button: http://i.imgur.com/aChPOa7.jpg

Can we have?

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1759
Author: PCOFFEY77
Date: on 04/14/2016 09:06 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>But we also need a panic button

I'd love to see "elemental" armor additions instead of just the Stone Shield depending on what Lores we've trained in. Fire would be more offensive and would lash out if hit, ice would slow down an opponent when struck, earth would protect best, and air could, well, I don't know, make us more nimble or allow more spell defense?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1760
Author: JACKBLACK
Date: on 04/14/2016 09:56 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>> Destiny

Can you stop posting for a like a week? I came here to check out how the spell was doing and everything is buried under your ravings.

>> Estild

I'd prefer you not to remove any features like steam crits before people have a good chance to really explore the spell. I think there is a lot of depth here and I would hate for it to be lost before people understand it.

very cool spell!

Thank you.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1762
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 04/14/2016 09:58 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


bump on my inquiry re the Water Walking effect. Does it still exist?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1763
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 04/14/2016 10:02 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


I'm not a fan of losing the damage from the initial cast at all. Is there no way we can have this feature back? Before it did damage and froze their bottom half, then we lose the damage now that we can make a second cast to freeze the rest of them. Why not let the damage stay, but only work against targets that aren't frozen at all? Or if keeping them separate is super imperative, maybe allow the damage with a targeted EVOKE, since open EVOKE is used for targeting half frozen stuff first?

In other news, what's up with this freeze duration of like....1 second? These are all against the same crawler in the same room, with no other enemies present. The longest it held for was 5 seconds, but it would usually start moving again in 1-3 seconds. I'm guessing it's wearing off after 1 round. Either way, something's not right.

You gesture at an enormous rift crawler. An airy mist rolls into the area, carrying a harsh chill with it. CS: +530 - TD: +451 + CvA: +25 + d100: +96 == +200 Warding failed! The mist builds upon the existing thick block of ice, expanding it to cover an enormous rift crawler's entire body, trapping it in an icy tomb. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > An enormous rift crawler begins moving again. >l [The Rift - 12152] Rain pours from the molten lead sky, and winds whip the ocean into a froth of vicious foam. The waves crash against the rocky shore, upon which rest two immense harps. Entrails take the place of strings, and with each crash of the waves, the harps sing out in a wail of anguish and pain. You also see an enormous rift crawler and the purple Methais disk. Obvious paths: southwest, west, northwest

>incant 512 You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cold Snap... Your spell is ready. You gesture at an enormous rift crawler. An airy mist rolls into the area, carrying a harsh chill with it. CS: +530 - TD: +451 + CvA: +25 + d100: +37 == +141 Warding failed! As the mist touches the surface of the thick block of ice encasing an enormous rift crawler, it solidifies, reinforcing the icy tomb. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

incant 512 You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cold Snap... Your spell is ready. You gesture at an enormous rift crawler. An airy mist rolls into the area, carrying a harsh chill with it. CS: +530 - TD: +451 + CvA: +25 + d100: +73 == +177 Warding failed! As the mist touches the surface of the thick block of ice encasing an enormous rift crawler, it solidifies, reinforcing the icy tomb. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > An enormous rift crawler begins moving again. > incant 512 You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cold Snap... Your spell is ready. You gesture at an enormous rift crawler. An airy mist rolls into the area, carrying a harsh chill with it. CS: +530 - TD: +451 + CvA: +25 + d100: +73 == +177 Warding failed! As the mist touches the surface of the thick block of ice encasing an enormous rift crawler, it solidifies, reinforcing the icy tomb. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > incant 512 Wait 1 sec. > incant 512 You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cold Snap... Your spell is ready. You gesture at an enormous rift crawler. An airy mist rolls into the area, carrying a harsh chill with it. CS: +530 - TD: +451 + CvA: +25 + d100: +43 == +147 Warding failed! As the mist touches the surface of the thick block of ice encasing an enormous rift crawler, it solidifies, reinforcing the icy tomb.

Necrotic energy from your lor runestaff overflows into you!

You feel energized! Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > An enormous rift crawler begins moving again. > incant 512 You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cold Snap... Your spell is ready. You gesture at an enormous rift crawler. An airy mist rolls into the area, carrying a harsh chill with it. CS: +545 - TD: +451 + CvA: +25 + d100: +11 == +130 Warding failed! You feel the unnatural surge of necrotic power wane away. As the mist touches the surface of the thick block of ice encasing an enormous rift crawler, it solidifies, reinforcing the icy tomb.

Your runestaff resonates with an extremely high-pitched sound and causes your skin and muscles to harden!

Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > An enormous rift crawler begins moving again. > incant 512

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cold Snap... Your spell is ready. You gesture at an enormous rift crawler. An airy mist rolls into the area, carrying a harsh chill with it. CS: +530 - TD: +451 + CvA: +25 + d100: +90 == +194 Warding failed! As the mist touches the surface of the thick block of ice encasing an enormous rift crawler, it solidifies, reinforcing the icy tomb. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

An enormous rift crawler begins moving again.

~ Methais Reading wizard nerfs had me like http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1764
Author: JACKBLACK
Date: on 04/14/2016 10:03 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


A few random questions!

Has anyone tried 512/512/518?

Fire attune looks like it could cause steam crits on all. Earth/water may proc the shatter chance!

Do the steam flares only affect FROZEN targets? Or both stages?

Post logs if you got em!


Thanks!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1765
Author: ZHOUY1
Date: on 04/14/2016 10:15 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>In other news, what's up with this freeze duration of like....1 second? These are all against the same crawler in the same room

This is typical for rift crawlers against all binding effects.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1766
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 04/14/2016 10:29 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>This is typical for rift crawlers against all binding effects.

http://i.imgur.com/aoDzPL7.webm

~ Methais Reading wizard nerfs had me like http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1767
Author: DOUG
Date: on 04/14/2016 10:31 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>>This is typical for rift crawlers against all binding effects.

Erm. . . ok, but it wasn't the case for 512 pre-update and 'rooted'. That will be a loss I would be very unhappy about, given its utility.

Methias, I didn't notice (and yep, I'm being lazy!) - did the crawlers break the rooted function, or did you go right for entombment?

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1768
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 04/14/2016 11:07 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>Methias, I didn't notice (and yep, I'm being lazy!) - did the crawlers break the rooted function, or did you go right for entombment?

I don't think so, but I didn't really test for it, and then I got stuck doing work at work, and now I'm back on the boat to Teras so I can't really go check again.

TLDR: I don't know.

~ Methais

Reading wizard nerfs had me like http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1769
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/14/2016 11:30 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


You should just sleep crawlers instead.

Also, I'd like the steam flare to be removed ASAP as melting the immobilization effect by group 111 defeats the whole purpose of a mass disabler in the first place.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1770
Author: DOUG
Date: on 04/14/2016 11:59 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>>You should just sleep crawlers instead.

I don't generally support 20 mana versus 12 for a single target versus multiple targets and only affects until awoken (by either my attack, or some other helpful NPC in the room) versus a timed duration that I can plan on. Of course, there might be a time or two where I might support it.

Oh! And, multi-NPC sleep would be just ideal, too!

The rooting seems to last rather than be removed like the immobility seems to be in Methias log. Durations seem a bit short, but I'm not stop-watching them. But, Estild - I'd like the 'crawlers deal with all immobility this way' side of this to be considered a bug, perhaps?

And I'll add my voice to the vote that I'd like to play with this a bit more before advocating a removal of a 'feature'. Perhaps a spell other than fire, for a bit?

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1771
Author: PCOFFEY77
Date: on 04/14/2016 12:05 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>Has anyone tried 512/512/518?

I use it pretty regularly but don't see the effect because I'm lightning attuned. Wouldn't mind if that was tweaked a bit since lightning and water don't mix well either... And would definitely cause steam... Unless it already does.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1772
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/14/2016 12:24 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>I don't generally support 20 mana versus 12 for a single target versus multiple targets and only affects until awoken (by either my attack, or some other helpful NPC in the room) versus a timed duration that I can plan on. Of course, there might be a time or two where I might support it.

You have a good point.

>And I'll add my voice to the vote that I'd like to play with this a bit more before advocating a removal of a 'feature'. Perhaps a spell other than fire, for a bit?

Do go ahead and play, but non-sorcerer/wizard pures only have 111 as a group hunting option to get credit for things such as bandits. The steam flare only did 1-10 damage that caused no stun or noticeable injury and instead only removed the immobilization feature before the timer was up.

>512/512/518

This had very minimal bursting effect and usually the things did not die even from the burst unless it was the correct body part that received a >5 crit. It's luck for the burst, luck for the body part. Once again too much of a slot machine for a lore that provides no synergies with offensive spells, such as religion lore does for 316. Of course, by then I could also have 518/518/518 and caused a much more guaranteed effect.

Generally, mass disablers are needed when the situation is so dangerous that attrition based hunting is not viable. In such cases, such as with non-corporeal undead or other creatures that cast, 512 will not work at all.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1773
Author: CAPTAINVIOLETBEARD
Date: on 04/14/2016 12:40 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


I am glad to see some big changed being made to wizards. Double casting the same spell for different effects is a wierd concept. I would rather see spells that capture their full purpose with 1 command.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1774
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 04/14/2016 12:49 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


Can 512 be set to evoke? Will that mess up the first cast in any way?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1775
Author: DOUG
Date: on 04/14/2016 12:53 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>>non-sorcerer/wizard pures only have 111 as a group hunting option to get credit for things such as bandits.

I just want to be sure I understand the implication here. 111, due to its ability to flare and hit multiple opponents at one cast is the preferred method (11 mana, 3 sec CT), over say 1106 once at each opponent, let's say 4 since we're talking bandits (24 mana, 12 sec CT), or 306 once at each opponent (24 mana, 12 sec CT).

Before asking my question I'll point out that hunting efficiency / quality of gaming experience arguments (saving mana, single shot / multi-effect activities and / or minimizing time) are important to me, but may not be quite the imperative as I sense some others may feel they are.

Now, my question - if that implication above is accurate, is the experience using 111 extending to knock-downs and stuns? I ask because I have to believe that in some measurable percentage of the NPCs knock-downs and stuns would occur. But I certainly don't know what that measurable percentage is. I would argue if it were high (let's say 85% or more of the time, just to put the point out on the table), then I would posit that whether the ice melts or not is really kind of irrelevant.

If, on the other hand, the measurable percentage were low (here, let's say 35% or less of the time, again just to put the point on the table), then I would say retaining the ice is an absolutely critical part of the strategy.

Not using this technique in group hunting myself, I don't have any direct experience. And I can well imagine it isn't guaranteed. But setting aside absolutes for a moment, what would you say the % stunned / knocked down is trending towards in your experience?

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1776
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/14/2016 12:57 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>Not using this technique in group hunting myself, I don't have any direct experience. And I can well imagine it isn't guaranteed. But setting aside absolutes for a moment, what would you say the % stunned / knocked down is trending towards in your experience?

I'm not going to be wasting my time gathering that kind of data because it's irrelevant to the fact that 512/512 is currently a poor hunting tactic in a group setting because the immobilization can be instantly removed by someone else's cast. I'm not going to tell other friends not to use certain spells because it's inconvenient, but the 410 method is far superior for getting credit and creating the desired immobilization effect that prevents the creatures from doing anything. The point is the wizard has nothing to offer anyone in terms of mass disabling other than 410 that lasts for any semi-guaranteed period of time, and that doesn't work while uphunting or on non-corporeal undead.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1777
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/14/2016 12:59 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>I would posit that whether the ice melts or not is really kind of irrelevant.

The point is that the steam "flares" that cause 1-10 damage are irrelevant to any kill result but only serves to reduce the immobilization. You're basically gaining nothing for giving up the immobilization. Not a single one of the flares even caused a stun or major injury.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1778
Author: PFLATS
Date: on 04/14/2016 01:10 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>I'm not going to tell other friends not to use certain spells because it's inconvenient

But that's how Gemstone works.

If an Empath casts Sympathy while a Cleric casts Divine Wrath, the Wrath won't hit sympathetic creatures.

If a bard sings Tonis while a wizard casts Haste or Celerity, well actually I've lost track of how those interact these days but I'm sure they still clash somewhere.

I'm too tired to think of other examples, but I know they're out there.

Yeah, it's annoying that Empaths and Clerics only get 110 as a ball spell, but throw some metal/crystal wands their way if you wanna use 512.

Or ask them to handle the disabling with 316/1120/135.

---

Semirelated, that got me thinking about 713: do plasma crits also cause steam?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1779
Author: DOUG
Date: on 04/14/2016 01:11 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


Ok, again - I understand. I wasn't asking for data, just inference. No matter.

410 will likely be superior to almost anything else presently for group hunting bandits.

912 does in fact work for uphunting in a group (at least by 10 to 15 levels, and admittedly not guaranteed), and against flying / non-corporeal targets, as shown.

512 isn't a strong (or perhaps just isn't a) selection for group hunting. However, it does have very specific and suitable uses, in my estimation.

And since 512/512 by definition can't be as effective as 410 in any number of use cases, I'm content with staying on the 'let's play with it a bit' side. I'd be more concerned about that position if 410 / 912 didn't function in these cases.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1780
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/14/2016 02:04 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>512 isn't a strong (or perhaps just isn't a) selection for group hunting. However, it does have very specific and suitable uses, in my estimation.

Please do let us know if you find any instances.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1781
Author: PCOFFEY77
Date: on 04/14/2016 02:55 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


I have noticed that with this new update I'm having a hard time getting a full head before running out of mana - even with leech. So, something isn't quite right here anymore. Definitely would like to see the damage brought back on the initial cast. It's still the same spell doing the same thing as it did, just without damage.

And if I have to "drench" something first, then 512 it, can there be a mass 903 spell that'll drench everyone as well?

The more I use this new spell the more I'd rather it be what it was.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1782
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 04/14/2016 02:56 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>can there be a mass 903 spell that'll drench everyone as well?

Cone of Elements (518)

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1783
Author: PCOFFEY77
Date: on 04/14/2016 02:58 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>Now, my question - if that implication above is accurate, is the experience using 111 extending to knock-downs and stuns? I ask because I have to believe that in some measurable percentage of the NPCs knock-downs and stuns would occur.

Maybe has nothing to do with your question but I'd point out that Major Cold blossoms into more and tends to knockdown/stun multiple targets and is cheaper to cast...but maybe I shouldn't mention that cause it might get nerfed as well.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1784
Author: PCOFFEY77
Date: on 04/14/2016 02:58 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>Cone of Elements (518)

Not if you're lightning attuned.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1785
Author: PCOFFEY77
Date: on 04/14/2016 03:00 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>Not if you're lightning attuned.

Nevermind, looks like you can set the element if you're trained enough. Sorry!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1786
Author: CANDIDE
Date: on 04/14/2016 03:10 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


"You may now EVOKE Cold Snap (512). Doing so, it will always prefer to hit already affected targets (thus to more easily upgrade the root to an immobile). The previous targeting logic no longer applies.

GameMaster Estild"

Does this mean that we can just use incant 512 evoke as a first and second+subsequent casts? Would love to just assign 1 macros button to this.

GBB

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1787
Author: DOUG
Date: on 04/14/2016 03:20 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


I think that's right, GBB, with one notable use case exception.

If you have more than 4 creatures in the room (or more up to your limit in EL:W training), you'll likely find yourself in a situation where you're only refreshing the duration of the existing immobilized creatures.

Since this doesn't happen to the Elf, it's not an issue for me. But I'll bet it could happen.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1788
Author: DOUG
Date: on 04/14/2016 03:23 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


I'm not too sure who made the 'shivering' suggestion (and yep, still being lazy!), but. . .

I am starting to really like that suggestion. Is it within the realm of plausibility that anytime a threshold for the spell (immobile to rooted, or rooted to free) gets passed, the equivalent of a Slow (504) effect takes place?

While the environment might have warmed (magically or otherwise) to the point where the ice falls away, I'd imagine limbs are still all aquiver, hampering any other efforts.

Oh, and I'll reiterate the suggestion that an immobilized (512/512) creature should be stepped down - immobile to rooted - when magic fire brings the spell down.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1789
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 04/14/2016 03:34 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>Do go ahead and play, but non-sorcerer/wizard pures only have 111 as a group hunting option to get credit for things such as bandits

This isn't actually true. Casting 316 and whatever that empaths spell is that makes everything act stupid will get them credit. Of course, this is also operating under the assumption that they're ok with not actually getting exp, since they're not actually doing any damage.

>Or ask them to handle the disabling with 316/1120/135.

This is actually the most effective thing to do anyway, as those spells are still better disablers in every way vs Cold Snap.

Cold Snap could have a lot of potential if the right tweaks were made to it, but unfortunately the way it currently is is little more than gimmicky eye candy that is outclassed in most situations by spells that have existed for decades. Losing the initial damage was unnecessary, and the steam thing is self defeating and according to Estild IIRC, is just for flair. I don't see how the logic adds up of something intended to be flair completely taking the spell itself out of the equation, but as Estild is open to removing that feature, it's whatever.

I think a better use of flares like that would be to have it do something meaningful. If you cast fire on it and it melts the ice, make the steam effect do enough damage to be worth sacrificing the big ice cube for. I think it'd be safe to say that if it's melting a big block of ice instantly, then that water should be boiling hot and burning the crap out of the target and doing tons of damage. Just make it a fire flavored version of the 505/510/903 shatter effect even. Do the same with the other elements too. Let lighting shatter do something else, acid does whatever, etc. This also opens up the spell for all types of mages and not just water mages, which is still the weakest and least used lore for combat. I don't foresee wizards running out to fixskills into a water lore build for this spell. Maybe more is coming, but since we're kept in the dark on that, all we can do is give feedback on what we're not in the dark about.

But anyway, the payoff has to really be meaningful, otherwise it's another situation of 410/912/518 still being the better choice and we're left with another situational gimmicky spell that will hardly ever get used once the new spell novelty wears off.

If we're gonna shoehorn wizards into primarily being bolters (which I don't think is even possible without a spell overhaul, not to any truly effective level compared to other pures anyway) then our bolts need to truly be meaningful when used in combination with setup spells. That's how synergy should work. You're on the right track with the current shatter effect, I just think some numbers need to be adjusted and more elemental synergy possibilities added.

One thing I would suggest when designing new spells/abilities is ask yourself something along the lines of "If I were a wizard, would I be lowering my hunting efficiency by using this over 410/912/518?" and if the answer is yes, take it back to the drawing board, ask for player feedback, bribe Dave with some coke (coca cola of course) to chill with his recent thing with sucking the fun out of wizards, etc.

I think it would be a much better use of resources to involve player feedback during the development process (i.e. "Hey guys, first off blah blah disclaimer, anyway this is a spell we're working on and how it works. What do you think?") as opposed to "New spell went live today, here you go!" followed by the usual forum train wreck after.

Differences aside between players and staff, I think that GS is a tight enough community to where this should be a thing, at least with class changes like wizards have seen.

I know this already somewhat happens (or at least did before it got canned in favor of not telling us anything until it's live or almost live), but the key here is you have to actually listen to the players too. The ELR is a prime example...for months, these forums were exploding with valid criticisms about the ELR changes and how they did nothing to address the issues created by the big 3 nerfs, yet almost every useless feature we complained about in great detail (slot machines, etc) got rammed down our throats anyway despite the fact that it was explained a million times by several players why it's bad, suggestions on how to improve or replace it, what wizards really need if you want them to be bolters and not using CS spells as their primary attacks. etc., and while some of our feedback did see results, the majority of it was ignored.

I'm not saying that because someone posts something then it has to happen, but when wizards in all directions are going down the list as to why XYZ does nothing to address problems ABC that were created by nerfing 123, you get the state of bitterness like we have with wizards.

I promise you that wizards (I know, not ALL wizards) didn't shift their focus to CS spells because we wanted to stick it to Simu and not use bolts out of spite. It's more about whats more fun and more rewarding to us, most of which has been taken away from us because Dave thinks it'll result in more F2P accounts (huh?) or whatever.

I'm still holding out hope that there's more stuff coming that will be really good, but I'm not getting my hopes up too high either. After all, the only way to ensure you won't be let down is to lower your expectations.

~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs: http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1790
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/14/2016 03:57 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>Of course, this is also operating under the assumption that they're ok with not actually getting exp, since they're not actually doing any damage.

Most people aren't ok with this, nor should they be expected to be.

>This is actually the most effective thing to do anyway, as those spells are still better disablers in every way vs Cold Snap.

This is obvious, but it just illustrates how useless Cold Snap is as there is no scenario under which I would currently use it vs. 410 (underhunting) or uphunting (doesn't work on sentries or GWEs).

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1792
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 04/14/2016 04:10 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


I'm sure this isn't some shocking revelation, but this spell also has zero use in the Confluence. It literally does nothing at all in the entire hunting area.

That's one thing that always irked me about hunting, especially at cap, is the ridiculous amount of non-crittable targets. Maybe it made some sense (and I use that word loosely in regards to this) back when almost everyone was one shotting all the time pre-crit randomization, but the frequency of one shot kills isn't nearly what it used to be for most classes, so what's even the point of having so many critters that are immune to everything except raw damage?

This is more of a game wide issue and not a wizard issue, but has still always been really annoying

~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs: http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1793
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 04/14/2016 04:54 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


> I think it would be a much better use of resources to involve player feedback during the development process (i.e. "Hey guys, first off blah blah disclaimer, anyway this is a spell we're working on and how it works. What do you think?") as opposed to "New spell went live today, here you go!" followed by the usual forum train wreck after.

This is easier said than done. Sometimes things look terrible on paper, but when you actually use it it's better than it sounds. The update to Empathic Link is a perfect example of this. The initial reaction to it was VERY underwhelming, and actually for quite a few hours nobody even bothered to try it out. Then a few people gave it a shot and said "Hey, I know this update sound bad... But, uh... This is actually really good. Check this out! <Log of destruction>." If I had given out details beforehand, it seems pretty likely that the response would have been "This isn't good and won't get us to use the spell."

I'm not saying you don't have a valid point, but ultimately it's more complicated than that. I can tell you right now that my next big release is something that I am dying to share with everyone. However, I know that like the 1117 update the initial player response is almost guaranteed to be "This is terrible. I can't believe you wasted your time working on this." I also know that when people actually get to use it they're going to see that it's not terrible and wasn't a waste of my time.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1794
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/14/2016 05:02 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>I also know that when people actually get to use it they're going to see that it's not terrible and wasn't a waste of my time.

I hope this is true, but it's very disheartening to keep seeing the lackluster band-aids we're given while you continue to further buff the two most powerful combat pures already.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1795
Author: LALAKERCLAN
Date: on 04/14/2016 05:05 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


The new 512 is terrible and a waste of time.

Just kidding.

I'm ok with new stuff being released, allowing us to test it (instant skill migration) and then responding to feedback. As long as feedback is actively being considered I'm cool with being given a new toy prototype to play with.

Of course I'm not currently playing my wizard anymore because he sucks now. Waiting to see if we get any new toys that on paper at least sound promising.

This particular spell update seems kinda blah on paper. One cast of 512 is terrible. Really this should just be moved to 525 with meteor swarm replaced or moved because I cannot think of any scenario in which I would cast 512 once. So really I look at it as a way to immobilize 4 critters in a room for 24 mana in 6 seconds of cast rt and subject to 2 warding checks. When spelled out that way, doesn't sound so great either, but who knows. Industrious wizards still actively hunting, post your logs! Try it out versus 410/912 and let us know.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1797
Author: CANDIDE
Date: on 04/14/2016 05:58 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


"I'm sure this isn't some shocking revelation, but this spell also has zero use in the Confluence. It literally does nothing at all in the entire hunting area.

That's one thing that always irked me about hunting, especially at cap, is the ridiculous amount of non-crittable targets. Maybe it made some sense (and I use that word loosely in regards to this) back when almost everyone was one shotting all the time pre-crit randomization, but the frequency of one shot kills isn't nearly what it used to be for most classes, so what's even the point of having so many critters that are immune to everything except raw damage?

This is more of a game wide issue and not a wizard issue, but has still always been really annoying

~ Methais"

Wait it doesn't root and prevent Special attacks/MA attacks from elementals in the confluence? Rewind. If that is true then this spell needs to work on Elementals (fire, water, lightning, steam, earth, lava, but not ice elementals) for sure. I would argue that it should even work on non corporeal undead encasing them in ice blocks.

GBB

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1798
Author: BLACKKOBOLD2
Date: on 04/14/2016 05:58 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


You say the oddest things about call wind, Doug!

You said yesterday that you use it on bandits. In my experience bandits are highly resistant to call wind while e-wave almost never misses. This is not true for all creatures, but my experience against bandits never varied. I love call wind, but it's a waste of mana against bandits. Do you really find call wind effective against them? If so, I wonder why the disparity?

I also don't recall non-corp being immune to knockdown from call wind. Fallen crusaders are non-corp and I seem to recall knocking them over. The reason not to use call wind against them is their haste effect. Knock down a crusader with call wind and it's up again before you can cast your next spell sometimes!

I do recall floating creatures like cerebralites would get buffeted, but this never seemed to produce any effect. It's possible I would have missed a stance change as cerebralites seem to have pretty low DS no matter what.

I also recall reading somewhere along the way that they made some change to interaction with flying creatures? I don't remember if that related to call wind in any way, though. Perhaps part of the ELR? It would make sense if flying targets were more susceptible to call wind, rather than being immune to it.

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1799
Author: KITHUS
Date: on 04/14/2016 06:17 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


I'm curious. Do you all feel that 512 would be good if the damage was added back in? It sounds like that loss is the biggest complaint. Other than that it sounds like even though water lore is supposed to give X amount of casts of minor water converted to minor cold but the spell is wearing off before all the bolts can be converted. That in mind perhaps one or more of the following changes would:

- Add the damage back in to the spell with a channeled version at the very least for a single target - Considering the apparently short duration of the spell (just going on what's been said) why not just make any cast of 903 at a target affected by 912 change to minor cold? - Add a way, either with water lore or another version of the spell, to instantly freeze the target(s)

Perhaps as a compromise a channel single target version that does the initial damage and freezes in a single cast or at least has a chance to on a high enough warding roll or with lore?

Just spit balling.

Keith/Brinret/Shiun

Brinret says, "Bring it on." A bolt of lightning streaks down from the sky and strikes Brinret! 

  ... 16428101 points of damage!
  Powerful blast reduces Brinret to a smoldering pile of ash!



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1800
Author: DOUG
Date: on 04/14/2016 06:28 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


Yikes! I'm not sure where I said that. . .

I do, from time to time, use Call Wind on bandits. But it is no where's near as effective as Elemental Wave against bandits, I agree. I'd say about 60 to 70%, but that's about it. If I left the impression that bandits are better tackled with 912, other than for amusement, I apologize.

And you might been able to knock over non-corps, but I never seem to. At least, not with sufficient frequency to count (and certainly not in the log posted).

I think you would have noticed that the buffeting does put the creatures in RT - that is, if you let them hang around for more than 1 second, you mad speed demon, you.

The change for flying creatures was 410, I'm pretty sure. Enough lore allows you to affect them (similar to buffet, doesn't knock 'em down). Ahh, yep - wiki says it unlocks at 50 ranks EL:A.

As I rip past an Aivren or two, I'll fire up Call Wind again, but pretty sure they get buffeted, too.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1801
Author: CAVEMANIAC
Date: on 04/14/2016 06:40 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


Just like the empath spell this doesnt sound that bad on paper. It is a mediocre crowd control spell but that is not its sole purpose and if you need a better CC wizards atleast have some other options.

The fact that the shattering effect does 50% HP damage in addition to the damage from the bolt sounds good. Now when you hit a non lethal body location when channeling bolts you will do serious damage. 512x2 then channeled 903x2 with 2x water lore might just kill anything that cold snap effects. Not having a solution for non-corps is a valid concern though.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1802
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/14/2016 06:44 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>It is a mediocre crowd control spell but that is not its sole purpose and if you need a better CC wizards atleast have some other options.

Still no valid and reliable options.

>The fact that the shattering effect does 50% HP damage in addition to the damage from the bolt sounds good. Now when you hit a non lethal body location when channeling bolts you will do serious damage. 512x2 then channeled 903x2 with 2x water lore might just kill anything that cold snap effects.

Sounds like someone who hasn't tried this spell even once. This isn't remotely true, even on the instances where the shattering effect occurred, the creature almost never died. If you have 2x water lore, you will have totally gimped yourself offensively, defensively, and utility wise on nearly every other level to the point where you're truly a crippled, one trick pony.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1803
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 04/14/2016 07:08 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>Wait it doesn't root and prevent Special attacks/MA attacks from elementals in the confluence? Rewind. If that is true then this spell needs to work on Elementals (fire, water, lightning, steam, earth, lava, but not ice elementals) for sure. I would argue that it should even work on non corporeal undead encasing them in ice blocks.

No disabler/crowd control spells work on anything in there except stuff that induces or affects RT, the only exception being earth elementals can be knocked down by 505 and 415 but that's not exactly a disabler it's just a knockdown.

~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs: http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1804
Author: BLACKKOBOLD2
Date: on 04/14/2016 07:20 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


No. The damage is not useful and cannot be useful and still remain balanced as a level 12 spell (at least, not without changing something else!). They need to focus on making this spell a useful alternative to other area disablers, or find something else to do with the spell slot if an effective CS-based mass disabler is too generous in the minds of our stingy development team.

The double-cast is also problematic. It's repetitive, too expensive for the effect it generates, and it requires two casts for an effect that arguably isn't even up to par for a single cast.

This is very disappointing. I've been waiting months for some sign that this team is learning from their mistakes and moving toward some sort of recovery. But this is exactly the sort of design that turned me off to the ELR from the start. It's like when you added weak reactive flares to stone skin without considering why wizards think stone skin is practically worthless as a level 20 major circle defense spell.

It's a shame. You did a great job on sorcerers. I was sort of expecting something similar for wizards. But, no.

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1805
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 04/14/2016 08:07 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>The fact that the shattering effect does 50% HP damage in addition to the damage from the bolt sounds good. Now when you hit a non lethal body location when channeling bolts you will do serious damage. 512x2 then channeled 903x2 with 2x water lore might just kill anything that cold snap effects.

For the setup time and mana required, combined with the defensive risk from having to CHANNEL the shatter and be stuck in offensive for 3 seconds, that 50% should be 100% and shattering the entire target into a million pieces. But since they don't want anything being one shotted, they'll say no.

Except you're not one shotting anything. You're 3 shotting things that requires 2 warding checks, 1 AS/DS check, and sticking your neck out by being stuck in hard offensive RT for 3 seconds. And then you have to land a rank 5 crit on top of it all.

What? That's overpowered? No it's not. Why? Becausea there's already a pure class that gets guaranteed 3 shot kills, but without the risk of channeling in offensive or rank 5 crits required. Oh yeah and a 0.3x lore requirement, as opposed to our current 202 water lore rank requirement just to have a 100% for shatter to activate on top of everything else. And even then you only get half of their health. If you land a rank 5+ crit.

Make it base 50% and let it scale up to 100% damage with lore training.

Make it require a 150+ end roll on the shatter shot to kill. The fact still remains that we have to make two successful warding casts before the shatter is even possible to attempt. Keep in mind that you also took away the damage that used to come along with casting this spell, which often one shotted things on its own, as it would usually crit pretty hard. No double cast setups or channeling or lore required. Just walk in the room and incant ice to the face.

This spell actually got nerfed for non-water mages, since shatter chance is water lore skill / 3.

Like someone said earlier, stop being so afraid to make spells powerful. You wanted combat slowed down from what Immolate could do. This achieves that while giving wizards a reliable way to kill that's impossible to one shot and doesn't require a pull of the lever or splitting your CS.

It will still be significantly less powerful than pre-nerf Immolate. This actually would put us right on par with 711 casting sorcerers. The damage per cast would just be 0/0/100% vs. sorcerers 33/33/33%.

And if you're putting all 202 lore ranks into water for a 100% shatter chance with a 2 cast setup requirement, you're sacrificing a lot and you'd better be gaining just as much in return. Otherwise what's the point?

Tell me why my idea is bad.


~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs: http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1806
Author: BRANDTJRT
Date: on 04/14/2016 08:23 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


This sounds rather underwhelming, though concept wise it is top notch. It seems to me that this might work better if it was set up like the new Tremors, where one cast let you use it a couple times, albeit with different numbers. It would also make sense if it would solidify water and ice elemental types and make them solid and crittable since they were solid chunks.

That's just me rambling a bit, as I really like the idea for sure and hope it can be made to work well. There's lots of good thinking by expert Wizards here, so hopefully it will end that way.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1807
Author: MEKK1
Date: on 04/14/2016 09:09 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


Make cold snap like 717 Evil Eye.

101-124 Causes target to freeze solid No Stun; Incurs 10 seconds of hard RT

125 - 174 Causes the target to fall to the ground. Creatures will drop items in their hands. Stance will be reduced to neutral. 1 second per 2 warding margin (12 sec at ER 125 to 37 sec at ER 174)

175-198 Frozen to death, heart stopped cold! No loot. No resulting stun

199+ Shattering Death. No loot.

Character formerly known as Drauz

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1808
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 04/14/2016 09:11 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


Methais
...combined with the defensive risk from having to CHANNEL the shatter and be stuck in offensive for 3 seconds...

Considering the fact that you twice cast the spell to immobilize everything in the room, the risk to channel is ridiculously small.

Methais
And then you have to land a rank 5 crit on top of it all.

It should be noted that the DS penalty for immobile targets is significant, making this much easier.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1809
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 04/14/2016 09:27 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>Considering the fact that you twice cast the spell to immobilize everything in the room, the risk to channel is ridiculously small.

I wouldn't say everything, since crusaders, destroyers, sentries, defenders, and water elementals are all immune to this spell, and having at least one of them in the mix isn't exactly uncommon.

And this spell has literally no use in the Confluence. Not even against fire.

~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs: http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1810
Author: ALSTHAR
Date: on 04/14/2016 09:30 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>>It should be noted that the DS penalty for immobile targets is significant, making this much easier>>

Yup, nothing ever walks into the room during the 1-6 seconds of soft cast rt (which would leave it either completely free of being disabled, or just rooted rather than immobilzed), or after the channel. There's definitely not a multitude of areas, especially near cap, where things enter room with spells already preped or can act in ~3 seconds.

It clearly won't happen every time but....yeah, you and I are worlds apart on what "ridiculously small" is.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1811
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 04/14/2016 09:41 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Robert
So seriously Estild, what's the scoop here? A full 15 seconds went by after I set the defender on fire and it just completely ignored the spell (this is the disabler version that I am casting in case there is any confusion). Is this working as intended or is there a bug that is hard to nail down? If the spell just isn't going to work (and it is intended) then there should at least be some messaging to this effect.

You were experiencing a bug which wasn't outputting the messaging when the flames were put out from the triton defender due to being in a watery room. It has always been the case that Immolation (519) will end early in such circumstances, and for the most part, the disabling effect of the spell has not changed (or should not have) at all since its original implementation. However, we also did discover another bug with how the roundtime was being applied and fixed that as well. Let me know if you notice any other issues with it.

To provide some additional details on how the disabling aspect works, when the spell is cast, the target creature is immediately subject to 10 seconds of roundtime. 5 seconds after the cast, they have a 25% chance to just ignore the fire (and thus take no additional roundtime that round) or they can attempt to extinguish the flames (10-50% chance of success) and take another 10 seconds of roundtime. This process repeats every 10 seconds. The roundtime does not stack with itself or any other roundtime on the target, but will reset to the 10 second mark accordingly. The disabling aspect has always worked this way.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1812
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 04/14/2016 09:53 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


ALSTHAR
Yup, nothing ever walks into the room during the 1-6 seconds of soft cast rt (which would leave it either completely free of being disabled, or just rooted rather than immobilzed), or after the channel. There's definitely not a multitude of areas, especially near cap, where things enter room with spells already preped or can act in ~3 seconds.

You only have to be concerned with the hard RT from the final cast where you channel. If something walks into the room while you're casting Cold Snap twice, you can easily decide not to try to shatter a target and thus not risk a channel. More so, most creatures cannot walk into a room and attack in the same action. So even if they do walk in, there's a significant chance you'll be out of roundtime before they perform any extra action.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1813
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/14/2016 09:57 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>If something walks into the room while you're casting Cold Snap twice, you can easily decide not to try to shatter a target and thus not risk a channel. More so, most creatures cannot walk into a room and attack in the same action. So even if they do walk in, there's a significant chance you'll be out of roundtime before they perform any extra action.

This kind of thinking makes me wonder whether you hunt often enough to know what actually happens in practice. In theory, this sounds nice, but in reality, when you need to hit a mass disable button because the room is swarming and OMG out of control, the last thing you're going to be doing is standing there twiddling thumbs and wondering whether you can afford to channel or confirming that every creature in the room was eligible and able to be frozen. A lot can happen in 3 seconds. Significant chances of bad things.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1814
Author: LALAKERCLAN
Date: on 04/14/2016 10:51 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


> ridiculously small

This is like every death my wizard has in gemstone, other than missing a sulfur trap while trying to pop boxes. I mean like every death. Where everything is going peachy until that one moment you're in offensive and then BAM dead/disabled about to be dead. Like every death.

Ridiculously small. I really really beg to differ.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1815
Author: ALSTHAR
Date: on 04/14/2016 11:10 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


Yes, so i've spent 12-24 mana for basically nothing i couldn't have accomplished with 410, 912, 435, 909 in the vast majority of circumstances. That's the point. The shatter isn't even exceptionally beneficial (or even remotely guaranteed without EXTREME amounts of our weakest lore), and the disable is inferior to our other options outside of some very niche cases. I have to be fighting something i can't reliable e-wave (which again, gets noticeably more reliable with the same lore tied to this disable...), call wind, tremor but can ward with MjE and isn't immune to this. I mean if i'm hitting something with a rank 5+ impact it's probably dead on anything than a limb shot, so sure bleeding something out with 300 damage rank 9 limb + shatter proc is cool but not exactly worth all the extra work.

The 2x cast just kills it for me. I don't see any problem with, again, it being 2x cast if you can't reliably ward things / have no water lore but a warding margin check with a lore benefit to lower the margin for entomb in 1 cast. At least then this would be an ok setup for our already weakest combat lore.

tl;dr - doing no damage for 6 seconds, ain't no one got time for that. It's the wizard equivalent of jab spam and we know how well that went over :P

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1816
Author: PC1234
Date: on 04/15/2016 03:29 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


You only have to be concerned with the hard RT from the final cast where you channel. If something walks into the room while you're casting Cold Snap twice, you can easily decide not to try to shatter a target and thus not risk a channel. More so, most creatures cannot walk into a room and attack in the same action. So even if they do walk in, there's a significant chance you'll be out of roundtime before they perform any extra action.
GameMaster Estild

I guess you're unaware that griffins can enter with a screech that puts you into 20s RT. You do play this game, right?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1817
Author: BLACKKOBOLD2
Date: on 04/15/2016 03:33 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


So why do I have to cast the spell twice to receive an effect that is underwhelming even as a single cast for 12 mana? And I should be happy to use this spell because you say casting a spell twice doesn't increase risk at all?

This is why I don't play GS anymore. I know you get all salty when people ask this question, but seriously Estild, have you ever hunted a wizard post-cap? Because you really hung us out to dry and you still don't seem to understand why.

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1818
Author: ZENDADA
Date: on 04/15/2016 04:23 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


I like this version of the spell much more than I did Ice Patch! Thank you for that!

It's a nice alternative AOE to what we already have. I'm not a water mage but I saw some clips earlier in this thread that were pretty awesome.

Mana does not bother me. I knew when I made a mage that mana would be an issue and have taken steps to mitigate that weakness in the basic character design.

Chad, player of a few

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1819
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 04/15/2016 06:11 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


I'd still like to see the spell have the option to be cast the old way with the damage, even if doing so removes the ability to follow up with another cast to ice cube them.

Would it be possible to allow us to CHANNEL the spell for this effect, assuming EVOKE isn't possible due to the EVOKE already being used for the feature Estild added? Or maybe let EVOKE <target> cast it for damage while open EVOKE does the whole targeting already rooted stuff.

Removing options and choices is almost never a good thing.

~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs: http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1820
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 04/15/2016 06:23 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Thank you for the response and the additional insight into how the spell should work.

I'll run it thought its paces this weekend and see if there are still any weird circumstances (no messaging or unexpected behaviors).

>> the disabling effect of the spell has not changed (or should not have) at all since its original implementation.

The bug has probably just became more noticeable (for me) with the reduction in instant kills.

>> However, we also did discover another bug with how the roundtime was being applied and fixed that as well.

I'll be curious to see how this plays out. Hopefully the bug fix was in favor of more RT, not less! :p

-- Robert

Raggler squeakily says, "Muffins are also known to be one of the most healthiest foods in the world."

Raggler squeakily says, "It's a fact."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1821
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 04/15/2016 07:08 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>This is easier said than done. Sometimes things look terrible on paper, but when you actually use it it's better than it sounds. The update to Empathic Link is a perfect example of this. The initial reaction to it was VERY underwhelming, and actually for quite a few hours nobody even bothered to try it out. Then a few people gave it a shot and said "Hey, I know this update sound bad... But, uh... This is actually really good. Check this out! ." If I had given out details beforehand, it seems pretty likely that the response would have been "This isn't good and won't get us to use the spell."

>I'm not saying you don't have a valid point, but ultimately it's more complicated than that. I can tell you right now that my next big release is something that I am dying to share with everyone. However, I know that like the 1117 update the initial player response is almost guaranteed to be "This is terrible. I can't believe you wasted your time working on this." I also know that when people actually get to use it they're going to see that it's not terrible and wasn't a waste of my time. -Konacon

One big roadblock with this whole wizard fiasco since the nerfs is nobody is going to shell out millions of coins for multiple fixskills in order to test out different builds with the new mechanics.

This could easily lead to an example like yours that sounds bad on paper but is great in practice going totally unexplored for quite a long time if not forever.

If you guys want us to really explore this new stuff and discover how great it really is with the right build, we need the test server opened up.

I'd love to try out a Cold Snap build with different amounts of water lore to see how it fares and at what point if any training more water lore becomes a waste. But I'm not going to shell out 2-3m a pop to respec just to test out new mechanics, and I doubt anyone else is willing to do so either.

We have a free fixskills coming up in a couple weeks, but who's going to gamble on that? If they try out a water lore build and it sucks, they're still going to be stuck spending a bunch of coins to spec out of it.

~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs: http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1822
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 04/15/2016 07:15 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


PC1234
I guess you're unaware that griffins can enter with a screech that puts you into 20s RT. You do play this game, right?
Estild
More so, most creatures cannot walk into a room and attack in the same action.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1823
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 04/15/2016 07:17 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Robert
I'll be curious to see how this plays out. Hopefully the bug fix was in favor of more RT, not less! :p

It was definitely a bug that was not in your favor (since it was failing to apply the roundtime correctly), so fixing it is a good thing.  :)

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1824
Author: DRUMPEL
Date: on 04/15/2016 07:31 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


The idea of the spell is nice, but it seems lacking. I think a few adjustments could do wonders to this updated spell. Right now it seems very taxing to get anything really useful out of the spell.

When cast the spell will subject non-grouped targets to a warding. Targets that fail to ward become rooted. The root status effect causes a target to have -50 AS to melee attacks, -25 AS to ranged attacks, and -25 DS (but does not stack with the -DS penalties from other status conditions such as being knocked down). Most importantly, rooted creatures also can't perform maneuvers. The spell will affect up to 4 targets, increasing by +1 per seed 5 summation of Elemental Lore, Water ranks. The duration of the root will be ((warding margin / 5) + 3), capped at 25 seconds.

Keep rooted effect and # of targets it hits. Adjust the duration because currently the ice appears to melt faster than it should to make things worthwhile. Change the root duration to ((warding margin / 4) + 2). This will give a slight boost to the duration once the end rolls exceed 140.

Casting the spell a second time will completely encase any already affected target that fails to ward in an ice block, immobilizing them and refreshing the duration.

Keep this, this is beneficial to those that don't focus on EL:W.

Add: Chance for initial cast to encase a target in ice for 5 seconds for any endroll over 200. Once the 5 seconds is up, the target goes from encased in ice to rooted in ice for the remainder of the root duration. Also, give a boost to those that train in EL:W. Every 5 ranks EL:W, the warding margin to instant encase drops by 1. Also, every 10 ranks EL:W the instant encased in ice duration increases by 1 second, capped at 25 seconds.

A mage with 100 ranks EL:W would need an end roll of 180 (100 EL:W ranks / 5 = 20; 200 endroll - 20 = 180) and the target would be encased for 15 seconds (100 EL:W ranks / 10 = 10; initial 5 seconds + 10 = 15 seconds)

This makes the spell somewhat more useful for non EL:W trained mages, but for those that do train in EL:W it helps show the power/control they have over the element, making it more useful for them.

If a target is encased in ice (512x2) and the caster CHANNELs a bolt that causes a rank 5+ impact (505, 510, 1709) critical, there is an (Elemental Lore, Water skill / 3) chance that the target location will shatter, completely destroying it and causing 50% of the target's max health in concussion damage.

Keep this idea, but adjust it so every one that trains in EL can have a chance to cause bonus damage across a larger number of spells.

Remove: CHANNEL required. CHANNEL is if we want to have a better chance to hit vital areas, it shouldn't be required here.

Adjust the EL:W skill / 3. It doesn't make sense that someone would need knowledge in EL:W to give their other bolt spells a chance to cause extra damage. Make it take your EL ranks against the spell you're casting. If someone casts 510, it would check against your EL:E skill / 3. If someone casts 906, it would check against your EL:F skill / 3....

Spells EL skill / 3 Chance Effect
906/908/111 Fire Rapid melting, severe steam burns
903/907/1709 Water Deep freeze (target stays frozen), add 10 points crit weighting to bolt
505 Air Shatter, concussion damage
510 Earth Shatter, crush/impact damage
904/1710 Earth or Water Rapid melting, severe plasma burns
910 Water or Air Shatter, severe shock damage
917 Earth Shatter, crush/impact damage & knocks target over
917 Fire Rapid melting, severe steam burns & knocks target over
518 whatever element you cast see above list that matches the bolt cast

>I didn't include 901 on the list because I don't see it having the punch required to do extra damage on ice encased targets. >518 might be overkill, but man it would be awesome to encase a handful of creatures and then blast them with 518 and watch the whole room (possibly) get destroyed!

With adjustments like this, I could see my wizard tossing out this spell from time to time. He has no water lore, but if he could instant encase a target on an initial cast and toss a boulder at them for a chance to do heavy damage, it would be beneficial to make use of time to time.

-Drumpel

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1825
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 04/15/2016 10:26 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


I stand corrected, Cold Snap works against earth elementals in the Confluence. Just not on anything else in there.

~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs: http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1826
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 04/15/2016 10:26 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


> I stand corrected, Cold Snap works against earth elementals in the Confluence. Just not on anything else in there.

I'll never trust you again!

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1828
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 04/15/2016 11:45 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>I'll never trust you again! ~ Konacon

Like you ever did! :(

~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs: http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1829
Author: CANDIDE
Date: on 04/15/2016 02:39 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


I would like this spell to have a chance to instantly freeze upon first cast much like 316's immobolization effect post 150 end rolls.

I would like this spell to work on more types of creatures ie (as many of the elementals as are not already made of ice, non-corporeal undead etc).

Other than that I look forward to using the spell and finding spots where it is appropriate. 3rd floor nelemar on radicals, combatants, and maybe spectral triton defenders if they can be hit with this.

The problem always comes up though does it address a problem 410/912/909 already has solved in a better way? If this spell turned into the spell that works when those 3 (really 2) don't work then I am all for it. Barring that I would still like that type of spell to become available. I would also like to mention that another boil earth type spell in the 500 and movin boil earth into the 500's would also be helpful.

GBB

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1830
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 04/15/2016 03:14 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>I would also like to mention that another boil earth type spell in the 500 and movin boil earth into the 500's would also be helpful.

They really should just buff Boil Earth. I don't think there is even one person that would honestly say that this is a good spell even with max lore.

If nothing else, its mechanics should mostly mirror Spike Thorn's, either via spell ranks like rangers or via lore. Either way I think even the biggest Simu cheerleader in the history of everything would agree that this spell is total trash right now.

~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs: http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1831
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 04/15/2016 03:24 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


Methais
If nothing else, its mechanics should mostly mirror Spike Thorn's, either via spell ranks like rangers or via lore. Either way I think even the biggest Simu cheerleader in the history of everything would agree that this spell is total trash right now.

It's my favorite spell in Dev right now.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1832
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 04/15/2016 03:24 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


> If nothing else, its mechanics should mostly mirror Spike Thorn's, either via spell ranks like rangers or via lore.

It is unlikely that we would make Boil Earth simply a wizard version of Spike Thorn.

> Either way I think even the biggest Simu cheerleader in the history of everything would agree that this spell is total trash right now.

Don't tell me what to think!

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1833
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/15/2016 03:26 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>It's my favorite spell in Dev right now.

If only you treated your approach to wizard spells the same way you did sorcerer, cleric, and empath love (we would even settle for no hate, if no love), people would be satisfied, if not happy, with your work. It's mind boggling the disparity that exists between this Dev team's approach to wizards vs. every other pure.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1834
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 04/15/2016 03:27 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>>It's my favorite spell in Dev right now.

> If only you treated your approach to wizard spells the same way you did sorcerer, cleric, and empath love (we would even settle for no hate, if no love), people would be satisfied, if not happy, with your work. It's mind boggling the disparity that exists between this Dev team's approach to wizards vs. every other pure.

Wat

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1837
Author: CANDIDE
Date: on 04/15/2016 03:33 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


"It is unlikely that we would make Boil Earth simply a wizard version of Spike Thorn.-Konacon"

Better than spike thorn works for me :)

GBB

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1839
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/15/2016 03:41 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>How about this, put me on ignore and don't respond with utter nonsense to my posts, and I will happily put you on ignore.

I'll respond to whatever posts I like, including those that are utter nonsense. It's unfortunate when someone disagrees with one's complaints, isn't it?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1842
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 04/15/2016 03:45 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


This is absolutely the wrong way to hunt for GMs. Loud noises scare us.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1845
Author: GS4-IXIX
Date: on 04/15/2016 03:51 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


Let's try to stay on topic, eh?


Ixix

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1847
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 04/15/2016 03:54 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


Kindly stop arguing in this thread. Anymore comments and this thread will be updated to be about one of the following three things, which I will choose at random:

a) Puppies b) Taylor Swift c) The Major Elemental Circle

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1849
Author: DOUG
Date: on 04/15/2016 04:04 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


Thank all the Arkati we weren't threatened with cats. . .

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1850
Author: RROY
Date: on 04/15/2016 04:06 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


People are well aware by now about how the 3-4 most vocal detractors feel. To reiterate it again and again is a waste of everyone's time, GM, writer, and readers. In fact for those of us not completely hating all the ELR and spell changes, its a bummer and kind of ruins a good mood.

Those comparing to MMOs, the games are different animals and the MMOs have had crazy crazy nerf buff cycles. Some of the buffs ad less than 1% damage.

Why not just view cold snap as a flavor spell if its not the be all end all? Even if its not as good as some other spells, if it was better then people using one of the other spells would whine how they suck.

I for one don't like the rapidfire clunkiness with having the 1 sec CRT, but thats the way it goes, gotta take some good with the bad. The new cone of elements more than makes up for that nerf. The splitting of haste is a pretty good trade off for me because I now have stacked duration on what I used haste for, eating herbs, getting into OTF etc...

Rapid Fire wasn't intended to be up 100% of the time when it was originally released. Haste was not intended to be up 100% of the time on you and your buddies in its original release. Immolate wasn't released with the intention of being min/maxed into the only spell cast.

So those things have been changed....

A wall of negative posts is only going to serve to discourage the dev. team eventually, lots of GMs, good GMs have left because of the mass amounts of QQing.

In my book telling the whole team they suck, lack judgement, short sighted, etc... is just as bad as calling out a particular GM with personal attacks.

The ratio of mages to other classes has possibly increased or at least stayed the same since we got the ELR. Last night 58/321 when I looked. So the mass exodus of wizards happening RSN.....

I don't ignore anyone, I just look for the red posts and the posts by the non-chicken little folks, then look back if I feel I need to these days...

Do people think that they will return the spells back the way they were or something? That won't happen. I for one am amazed that we are still getting changes after all that's been said.


Just an elf about town...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1851
Author: RROY
Date: on 04/15/2016 04:15 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


b) Taylor Swift

Please no! I have a renter who lives in my same complex that only talks about TS....

If he were healthier he would probably be a stalking risk outside her home.


Just an elf about town...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1852
Author: ZENDADA
Date: on 04/15/2016 04:17 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


b) Taylor Swift

She has some sagely advice... shake it off.

Chad, player of a few

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1853
Author: BRANDTJRT
Date: on 04/15/2016 05:14 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>This could easily lead to an example like yours that sounds bad on paper but is great in practice going totally unexplored for quite a long time if not forever.

>If you guys want us to really explore this new stuff and discover how great it really is with the right build, we need the test server opened up.

>I'd love to try out a Cold Snap build with different amounts of water lore to see how it fares and at what point if any training more water lore becomes a waste. But I'm not going to shell out 2-3m a pop to respec just to test out new mechanics, and I doubt anyone else is willing to do so either.

I think that needs repeated because it makes so much sense.

That or every time a new spell like this comes out, a short window of instant migration between lores.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1854
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 04/15/2016 05:53 PM PDT
Subject: Move Immolate to 525/530 and restore it to pre-nerf


Immolate should be restored to pre-nerf status and moved to 525/530. And here's why:

Everything below except the mana cost is referring to pre-nerf Immolate, not matchstick Immolate.

- 1030 does craploads of damage - Immolate does craploads of damage

- 1030 can AOE - Immolate can't AOE but has a good instant kill rate and built in disabler

- Immolate requires 2x fire lore to be this powerful - 1030 requires 75 ranks to max out its lore benefit to be this powerful without holding an instrument

- 1030 costs 10 mana for single target, 20 for AOE - Immolate costs 25/30 mana


This isn't an anti-1030 post either. 1030 rules. This is a pro-Immolate post. Raise the floor, don't lower the ceiling, etc.


~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs: http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1855
Author: RROY
Date: on 04/15/2016 06:22 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Move Immolate to 525/530 and restore it to pre-nerf


I support this message.... heh

Just an elf about town...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1856
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 04/15/2016 07:10 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>It's my favorite spell in Dev right now. -Estild

http://i.imgur.com/dSTbrpg.jpg

>It is unlikely that we would make Boil Earth simply a wizard version of Spike Thorn.

That's not a bad thing. But in like laziest case scenario, I'd take it.

>Don't tell me what to think! ~ Konacon

You're not my real dad!

>I for one don't like the rapidfire clunkiness with having the 1 sec CRT

Rapid Fire should have an EVOKE feature added that turns it to Burst Fire. Works like multicast, but for offensive spells instead of buffs.

Example: incant 906 5

' Cast roundtime: 3 seconds


>Rapid Fire wasn't intended to be up 100% of the time when it was originally released.

According to who? Because it's been that way for decades.

>Haste was not intended to be up 100% of the time on you and your buddies in its original release.

If this were the case, it would have been addressed when Haste II went away and Haste I just became Haste and had its formula reworked.

>Immolate wasn't released with the intention of being min/maxed into the only spell cast.

The reason it was the only spell cast (which isn't true anyway, people act like it one shots things constantly, most finish with 906 if Immolate doesn't kill it) was because nothing else got any big combat benefit from lore. Give people reasons to cast other spells and they will. That doesn't require nerfs.

>The ratio of mages to other classes has possibly increased or at least stayed the same since we got the ELR. Last night 58/321 when I looked.

WHO stats don't mean much when you're also the most popular pocket class.


~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs: http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1857
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 04/15/2016 07:43 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>> It's my favorite spell in Dev right now. -Estild > http://i.imgur.com/dSTbrpg.jpg

That picture made me laugh.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1858
Author: RAGGLER
Date: on 04/15/2016 09:42 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


Unfortunately just because it might be the same 4 or 5 individuals that are loudly discouraged with the changes wizards are going through, doesn't mean there aren't a great many of us who are waiting fairly silently in the background for a more balanced outcome. I may not agree with everything they say, but I agree with a lot of it, and I'm sitting back hoping that at least some of their concerns get through. I'm friends with plenty of wizards that are not delighted by the ELR and frankly get more and more discouraged that we're ever going to find the right direction for wizards, with each new spell release or update. We just don't post very often on the boards.

Sadly, Cold Snap simply falls short again, primarily because it's another case where wizards are spread too thin having 4 different lores. We suffered huge losses with our big 3, and right now, focus needs to be put on spells that are functional for all wizards right out of the box. The main reason I dislike this spell so much, is because it's actually kind of awesome with a huge investment in water lore, which is hard to swallow now since we're all still picking up the pieces of haste the only way we know how, with massive air lore training. With all the other changes, it's also made it hard not to at least have 10-20 ranks of each of the other lores just to hit those low seeds. So now my new spell is collecting dust, right out of the box, which really seems worse then no change at all. Personally, I'm never going to find investing 24 mana and 6 seconds to freeze everything in the room for what seems like a few seconds longer then it takes to do it, a worthy use of my time and mana. However, it testing it out some today, I had a brief glimpse into how awesome this spell could have been in certain situations.


You channel. You hurl a large boulder at a sand devil! 

 AS: +566 vs DS: +397 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +57 = +266
  ... and hit for 164 points of damage!
  Every bone in the left arm shattered and scattered about!

The devil's clamshell shield falls to the ground. 

  The sand devil is stunned!

You hurl a large boulder at a gnomish bandit! 

 AS: +566 vs DS: +246 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +51 = +411
  ... and hit for 183 points of damage!
  Left arm is torn from shoulder!
  The bandit's reinforced shield falls to the ground.

Powerful blow shatters a gnomish bandit's frozen left arm, causing 164 points of damage!

[You have 8 kills remaining.] The gnomish bandit falls to the ground and dies. You hurl a large boulder at a human brigand! 

 AS: +566 vs DS: +175 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +32 = +463
  ... and hit for 222 points of damage!
  Blow to head removes skull!

[You have 7 kills remaining.] The human brigand rolls over and dies. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. Roundtime: 3 sec.


So I'm not sure if anyone has posted this yet, but it does indeed work with Cone of Earth. I only have 10 ranks of water lore, so it's only barely working for me. In certain situations, probably not while solo hunting, but at least in a group, or in bandits, or anywhere else I'm just sorta kicking around, I would totally invest 24 mana on a setup and another 18 mana on a cone to shatter a bunch of stuff. That's just friend impressing coolness right there, even if it's not a spell you're going to use every hunt. The only problem is that dang water lore requirement again. Others have already came up with the solution. Tie the lore that you need to shatter to the spell being cast. Then an air mage can shatter with air, or an earth mage with earth, or even fire with fire, why not? Since it's taking 24 mana and 6 seconds to setup, it would actually be a perfect group spell, in the sense that once things are frozen, other party members, with various attacks, could also activate the shatter. Crushing damage from weapons? Bard vibrations? Think of the possibilities and the fun you could have in a group. I've also thought that for some of these spells, why couldn't we have a percentage scale based on overall lore, rather than a specific lore? Even if you couldn't get 100% activation, what about 50% at 202 ranks of all lores combined? This spell should never have been cold snap, it should have been elemental snap! Let's start getting some changes that show the love to all wizards, not another change that forces us to choose between being one thing or another.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1859
Author: RROY
Date: on 04/15/2016 10:07 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


According to who? Because it's been that way for decades.

Because when the spell was released people didn't have the potential to have 500 mana and it did not stack at original release. So with 15 sec up time you at least had to recast.


WHO stats don't mean much when you're also the most popular pocket class.

There aren't all that many pocketmags as there were long ago. Most of the pocket mages came into being for enchanting not for spellups.

If pocket mages were so common these days it would also prove true for Rangers with the mobility and dex spells....currently 24/293 rangers on....

Mage been the number one class online at any one time since the game released. Also if such a vast amount of mages left then the ratio of mages would have decreased. As I said it seems like more mages around... Not saying there are 0 pocket mages, but other then a few vocal mages claiming to leave (Yet they still have their accounts around to post) there's no evidence to support mass quitting like some people seem to be saying.


Didn't the other CS based fire attack changes at least partially made up for the nerf? 415 can now hit more than 1 critter, can now push TD down on initial cast of saturation, also cone of elements fire is pretty neat. Fire Lore now increases bolting, that's sweet! 906 ignites...

Looks like they are trying to get people to use more of the spells that are favored by a particular lore.

I have to admit that I haven't played around with the fire spells much yet, I'm just above .5X in Air and want to max out my spells then get 1.5X fire.

As for cold snap, can it work with cone of fire shatter multiple critters?

I'm thinking they are done with the three nerfed spells and any improvements will come with other spells. At any rate, for many mages there were plenty of neat implementations.

I'm mostly using Rapid Fire for cones when there's a swarm then use the remainder of up time on single critters. I often hunt without having cast it or having only cast it one time due to only 1 swarm.

Sorry for the ramble, been sleep deprived all this week.... heh.


Just an elf about town...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1860
Author: RROY
Date: on 04/15/2016 10:24 PM PDT
Subject: (RF)


I hear ya Raggler, I like a lot of the changes via the ELR as the only nerf to my playstyle was Rapid Fire... I hate the clunky 1 sec CRT, but don't mind the cooldown, and I like the fact that it doesn't autoprep anymore.

If it were reworked such that EMC had to be trained in to use it with higher level spells which when unlocked would disallow the low mana cost spells. So early on 901 would work without the 1 sec CRT, but it would require 202 or 303 ranks to be able to Rapid Fire 435. Say at 303 ranks the lowest spell that could be Rapid Fired would be 10th level, at 202 ranks you could only Rapid Fire 20th circle, but the bottom spell would be say 6th circle. You would need EMC at level at least to be able to Rapid Fire with 0 CRT so if someone wanted to plink away with 901 it would be without any benefits from cooldown reduction and still have the 1 sec CRT.

With a mage able to 910 Rapid Fire the limiter would be mana...

Sorry I'm tired so this might not be worded clearly.

Just an elf about town...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1861
Author: CANDIDE
Date: on 04/15/2016 11:04 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


"So I'm not sure if anyone has posted this yet, but it does indeed work with Cone of Earth. I only have 10 ranks of water lore, so it's only barely working for me. In certain situations, probably not while solo hunting, but at least in a group, or in bandits, or anywhere else I'm just sorta kicking around,-Raggler"

My wizard changed to 30 ranks of Water lore for major acid and that gives him a "hefty" 40 percent chance to shatter. I am guessing 50 ranks of air lore will be his next post cap goal after spells.

Currently he is at 24 air, 20 earth, 22 fire, 30 water at 8.5 million experience so it will be awhile. But my CS is only 530 or so with the 500's and frankly that misses way too often for my liking, and my prospects for going much higher are slim as I am considering a 129 major, 97 wizard, 77 minor final spell total for a 540CS?

My problem with this spell right now is that TD is high and it doesn't work on more creatures. Maybe TD was helped by recent confluence changes. Now it just needs to work on them.

GBB

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1862
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 04/16/2016 01:34 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>and I like the fact that it doesn't autoprep anymore.

What's funny is those elemental rings that let you summon a ball of whatever with a bunch of scripts, when you cast spells at it to recharge it with rapid fire it still works like prenerf with 0 RT and spell re-prep.

If only i could figure out how to trigger that in combat.

~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs: http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1863
Author: RROY
Date: on 04/16/2016 06:41 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


Ut oh! Elemental ring nerf incoming lol.

Just an elf about town...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1864
Author: PCOFFEY77
Date: on 04/16/2016 07:47 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>Thank all the Arkati we weren't threatened with cats. . .

Worse - Taylor Swift.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1865
Author: GAROFALOA
Date: on 04/16/2016 08:18 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


Of those 58 probably 10 more actual players the rest were Bots... Just saying

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1866
Author: PCOFFEY77
Date: on 04/17/2016 05:36 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


Still seeing a few things..

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cold Snap... Your spell is ready. You gesture at an Ithzir janissary. An airy mist rolls into the area, carrying a harsh chill with it. 

 CS: +504 - TD: +450 + CvA: +19 + d100: +78 == +151
 Warding failed!

The mist leaves an Ithzir seer's lower half encased in a thick block of ice. Just as you 512, the Ithzir janissary shimmers and fades away, leaving you gesturing at nothingness! The mist leaves a thin layer of ice on an Ithzir janissary's lower half, but he easily shakes it off. Just as you 512, the Ithzir janissary shimmers and fades away, leaving you gesturing at nothingness! The mist leaves a thin layer of ice on an Ithzir janissary's lower half, but she easily shakes it off. The scintillating silver light surrounding the runestaff fades some. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

And also, I'm only getting one cast of 903 to You hurl a stream of water at an Ithzir initiate, but it freezes just before impact. Carefully, you summon the chunk of ice back to your hand...

Are we not supposed to be able to summon it back multiple times based on trainings? I have 50 Water Lore...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1867
Author: PCOFFEY77
Date: on 04/17/2016 05:39 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>I have 50 Water Lore...

So if I understand the Summation Chart correctly, I should get 4 shots at 46 trainings...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1868
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 04/17/2016 10:12 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


I've had to put off my testing until sometime in the coming week due to unexpected company from out of state dropping in for a visit.

-- Robert

Raggler squeakily says, "Muffins are also known to be one of the most healthiest foods in the world."

Raggler squeakily says, "It's a fact."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1869
Author: BLACKKOBOLD2
Date: on 04/17/2016 03:56 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


It may not be reasonable to hold Simutronics to the same expectations as companies that actually pay their developers. Simutronics obviously has fewer resources available. However, it is for that reason that I hold them to an even higher standard as far as planning. If Blizzard botches a major content patch and a class ends up not where it should be, they can fix it within days or weeks. When Simutronics does the same, the turnaround time can be (and usually is!) years. Given that, it's reasonable to expect them to have a plan and disappointing when they don't appear to have one.

Of course, players aren't privy to the same information as GMs and the NDA ties their hands at times with regard to what information they can release. But the information we received does not paint a pretty picture for the premise that this is part of a grand plan to make wizards better than ever. When the nerfs were first announced and the criticism began, we were told that the ELR is not a class review. It was never intended to compensate for the nerfs, which appear to have been added on at some point during the process. Much of the ELR was actually an unfinished project started by GM Naos years ago and implemented more or less as he intended. Finally, we have the vague indication by the APM that if we're ever going to have nice things it will have to be without rapid fire/haste/immolate in their previous form - tacit admission of the significance of the nerfs.

So, my negative tone aside, I guess I'm wondering what you're seeing as far as "the plan" goes, RROY? Do you see one? At all? Maybe my expectations simply don't match reality. I really wanted to believe that when Wyrom mentioned the nerfs removing a barrier to a better design, he was in fact referring to a plan of action that included replacing what was taken from wizards with something better.

I gather from your lack of enthusiasm, RROY, that the ELR didn't exactly light up your world either. I also gather that you're willing to put up with that, for the love of the game. I sometimes wish I could! But at some point - once the glow of avoiding a mass wizard exodus wears off - it might be time for you to get on board and start asking where this is all headed. You'd be doing me a favor because I'd really like to know whether or not I should be wasting my time returning to these forums every few months!

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1870
Author: BLACKKOBOLD2
Date: on 04/17/2016 05:05 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


It might also help to explain my perspective on what I'm looking for as far as a plan (and what I'm not looking for!).

Obviously, I'm not expecting the GMs to show up and share every detail about the future. Not only would their NDA prevent them from doing so, but it would be unwise to appear to promise one thing and months or years later deliver another. I understand that. What I'm looking for is a general course of action. Where do we stand, where are we going, and how are we going to get there in general terms?

My expectation is that lores will ultimately define distinctive builds, or sub-classes. My basic definition for a build is a distinctive and viable playstyle with a training path to achieve it. Immolate was the barest skeleton of that definition. You train heavy fire lore and overtrain MjE spells post-cap. Done. There was little else to define the build. On the other hand, training 24 ranks in air lore to achieve those benefits, while certainly a popular choice, does not constitute a build. It's viable. It was a training path to some extent. But there's nothing distinctive about picking up a handful of minor abilities that don't significantly alter your playstyle.

Other games do this a lot better than we do. Every class has multiple builds, defined by the choices they make with regard to gearing and skills. You might say that this parallels GS, with wizards choosing a "pure" or "war" mage variant. While it's true that the war mage is a build, it shares much of the one-dimensionality of rapid shock and immolate. The build is still defined by a single spell, with very little in the way of dedicated support.

That's what I had hoped to see the ELR address in the long term. Unfortunately, nothing in the ELR produced a distinctive playstyle.

That's a tough nut to crack, though. Planning is key. Implementing spells as they're finished doesn't work out well. How could immolate not be underwhelming if released far in advance of its support structure? The answer is that immolate could only be appealing under those conditions if it were overpowered. That's why immolate worked in the first place. It was so powerful that it justified heavy lore training all on its own. Give it support and it just becomes more powerful (or your support spells never get used!). Conversely, releasing a weak version of the spell now so that it will be appropriately powerful as part of a complete fire build later simply disappoints players in the here and now.

So, that's my problem with the whole ELR. No plan. It feels muddled, and whatever they're going to do to create the builds Wyrom indicated were the eventual goal of these nerfs seems far off in the future. So far, in fact, that I've heard nothing to indicate that such a plan actually exists beyond Wyrom's vague observation that one-trick pony spells are problematic when designing builds and should be removed on that basis. Why that had to happen immediately when they were so clearly not ready to proceed is beyond me. Call it poor planning?

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1871
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 04/17/2016 07:13 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


I had a little time left over this evening so made a quick run to the temple. It seems like we've taken another step forward and then two backwards with this spell yet again but maybe the RNG was working against me some this hunt. So my limited data observations so far...

1) In the past, when I would cast this spell the critters would frequently drop to the ground and roll giving you the benefit of them now being prone and in round time.

Log example from a hunt last week:


>look [Ruined Temple, Second Floor] Drops of water fall from the ceiling with a barely audible splash, joining the tiny streams that flow through the intricately carved grooves in the floor. A single arched window, its edges worn from time and the elements, rests along the southern wall. You also see a triton radical, a bundle of brackish green arrows, a small puddle and the brown Faulkil disk. Obvious exits: north, east, west

A triton combatant strides in, a wary look on her face.

A triton radical falls to the floor and rolls, trying to smother the flames that surround it. The flames surrounding a triton radical continue to burn.


Now it appears that 100% of the time the critter is instead remaining standing and flailing:


A siren flails wildly, trying to extinguish the flames that surround her.


2) Additionally, it now seems that 100% of the time if there is water present then immolation will end immediately after it was cast.

You gesture at a triton radical. The dull golden nimbus surrounding a triton radical suddenly begins to glow brightly. 

 CS: +535 - TD: +440 + CvA: +20 + d100: +13 == +128
 Warding failed!

Wisps of black smoke swirl around a triton radical and she bursts into flame causing 8 points of damage! 

  ... 20 points of damage!
  Flames engulf head searing hair and scalp.  Sickening!
  ... 20 points of damage!
  Nasty burns to left arm.  Gonna need lots of butter.
  ... 15 points of damage!
  Burst of flames chars neck a crispy black.
  ... 3 points of damage!
  Minor burns to left arm.  That hurts a bit.

The flames around a triton radical continue to burn! Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.

The flames surrounding a triton radical quickly die down as steam rises around her.


I'll have to dig through my logs but I am fairly certain that critters used to drop and roll at least some of the time in these rooms previously (and sometime there would be the bug where they mysteriously weren't on fire any more). Is it intended to be 100% chance of extinguishing the fire in wet rooms going forward? I can see why this might occur some of the time but given we are not totally submerged in water I don't agree that this should be a 100% of the time occurrence. Maybe give them an increased chance of putting the fire out in a watery room when they drop and roll or something like that.

3) Finally, the messaging seems to be forgetting which room it is in now... I've highlighted several flares that occurred on a radical that wasn't in the room with us. Notice how the radical is conveniently ignoring that is is on fire and choosing to cast in this example as well...

>look [Ruined Temple, Third Floor] From the submerged floor below, water laps gently, echoing through this roofless chamber. An armless statue of a woman gazes upon a collapsed section of wall, soot marring her otherwise flawless ivory visage. Bleached bones lay in the shadow of the statue. You also see an eerie crimson mist, a water elemental that is lying down, the earth brown Faulkil disk, a triton combatant that appears dead, a triton radical and a spiral staircase. Also here: the body of Yactaevia who is lying down Obvious paths: northeast, northwest

A triton radical steeples her clawed fingers together, murmuring a quick incantation.

The flames surrounding a triton radical flare up violently... 

  ... 10 points of damage!
  Burst of flames to head catches ears on fire!  Yeeoww!

The flames around a triton radical continue to burn!

> Flames from the very bowels of the world's core erupt to consume you! 

 CS: +409 - TD: +448 + CvA: +12 + d100: +2 - -5 == -20
 Warded off!

>drag yac stair You grab Yactaevia and drag her body with you...

[Ruined Temple, Second Floor] A spiral staircase climbs up to third floor of the temple, and is flanked on either side by a large stone statue carved to resemble a large water droplet. The flooded water reaches to the statues' middles, where wavy patterns have been formed by years of erosion. A single tapestry, soaked with moisture, hangs from the northwestern wall, and a rusted iron bar rests opposite it. You also see some muck. Also here: the body of Yactaevia who is lying down Obvious exits: southeast, southwest

Your disk arrives, following you dutifully. >'Let's get you to town You say, "Let's get you to town." > A triton executioner leaps from hiding to attack! A triton executioner swings a coral-hilted sharply tapered longsword at you! You barely dodge the attack! > .cc 906

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.] stance offensive incant 906 stance defensive

[Script finished!] You are now in an offensive stance. >Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Fire... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a triton executioner. You hurl a stream of fire at a triton executioner! 

 AS: +510 vs DS: +326 with AvD: +34 + d100 roll: +52 = +270
  ... and hit for 121 points of damage!
  Left arm incinerated.  Unfortunate.
  The executioner's black steel buckler falls to the ground.
  The triton executioner is stunned!

Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded. > The flames surrounding a triton radical flare up violently... >look [Ruined Temple, Second Floor] A spiral staircase climbs up to third floor of the temple, and is flanked on either side by a large stone statue carved to resemble a large water droplet. The flooded water reaches to the statues' middles, where wavy patterns have been formed by years of erosion. A single tapestry, soaked with moisture, hangs from the northwestern wall, and a rusted iron bar rests opposite it. You also see a silver-rimmed black steel buckler, the earth brown Faulkil disk, a triton executioner that appears stunned and some muck. Also here: the body of Yactaevia who is lying down Obvious exits: southeast, southwest > > The flames surrounding a triton radical flare up violently... > A triton executioner leaps from hiding to attack! A triton executioner swings a coral-hilted sharply tapered longsword at you! 

 AS: +433 vs DS: +683 with AvD: +39 + d100 roll: +19 = -192
  A clean miss.

> .cc 906

[Press the ESCape key to abort script.] stance offensive incant 906 stance defensive

[Script finished!] You are now in an offensive stance. >Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Fire... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a triton executioner. You hurl a stream of fire at a triton executioner! 

 AS: +514 vs DS: +271 with AvD: +34 + d100 roll: +57 = +334
  ... and hit for 162 points of damage!
  Permanently debilitating burns across stomach.

Some of the flames from the stream of fire linger around a triton executioner. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded. >stare exe You stare at a triton executioner. >look [Ruined Temple, Second Floor] A spiral staircase climbs up to third floor of the temple, and is flanked on either side by a large stone statue carved to resemble a large water droplet. The flooded water reaches to the statues' middles, where wavy patterns have been formed by years of erosion. A single tapestry, soaked with moisture, hangs from the northwestern wall, and a rusted iron bar rests opposite it. You also see a triton executioner, a silver-rimmed black steel buckler, the earth brown Faulkil disk, a triton executioner that appears stunned and some muck. Also here: the body of Yactaevia who is lying down Obvious exits: southeast, southwest > A triton executioner swings a coral-hilted sharply tapered longsword at you! 

 AS: +433 vs DS: +683 with AvD: +39 + d100 roll: +36 = -175
  A clean miss.

>prep sleep You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Sleep... Your spell is ready. > The flames around a triton executioner continue to burn! 

  ... 25 points of damage!
  Flames burn hole in chest exposing ribs!

The triton executioner collapses to the floor with a splash, gurgling once with a wrathful look on her face before expiring. >cast exe You gesture at a triton executioner. 

 CS: +535 - TD: +402 + CvA: +20 + d100: +9 == +162
 Warding failed!

A triton executioner's eyes roll up into her head as she slumps to the ground. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. >look [Ruined Temple, Second Floor] A spiral staircase climbs up to third floor of the temple, and is flanked on either side by a large stone statue carved to resemble a large water droplet. The flooded water reaches to the statues' middles, where wavy patterns have been formed by years of erosion. A single tapestry, soaked with moisture, hangs from the northwestern wall, and a rusted iron bar rests opposite it. You also see a triton executioner that is sleeping, a silver-rimmed black steel buckler, the earth brown Faulkil disk, a triton executioner that appears dead and some muck. Also here: the body of Yactaevia who is lying down Obvious exits: southeast, southwest > The flames surrounding a triton radical flare up violently... > Yactaevia gives a ghostly chuckle. > You feel at full magical power again. >incant 930 You trace a series of glowing runes while chanting the phrase for Familiar Gate... Your spell is ready. You gesture. Pale, swirling mist begins to billow out from nothingness before you, and quickly coalesces into a small orb of shifting essence. Suddenly, the orb expands and forms an elliptical portal of swirling blues and blacks, its edges shrouded in dancing blue-white mist. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > A triton executioner breathes quietly in her sleep, sending small disturbances through the surface of the water. >drag yac mist [Assuming you mean a shifting portal.] You drag Yactaevia through the shifting portal.


-- Robert

Raggler squeakily says, "Muffins are also known to be one of the most healthiest foods in the world."

Raggler squeakily says, "It's a fact."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1872
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 04/17/2016 07:41 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Regarding Item 2) in my prior post. I am actually positive that immolation used to work in the 'muck areas' nearly all of the time as this is my opener on sentries to keep them from casting. If the new behavior is intended that immolation always fizzle out in a muck area immediately after casting then the spell is now pretty much useless for hunting the third floor of nelemar any more. We already have a high warding margin to overcome (see the whole 80% of the time discussion earlier on) so I seriously hope this new 100% fizzle behavior is not intended (and it definitely is a new behavior introduced with the most recent round of changes.

-- Robert

Raggler squeakily says, "Muffins are also known to be one of the most healthiest foods in the world."

Raggler squeakily says, "It's a fact."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1873
Author: RROY
Date: on 04/17/2016 09:00 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


Aversion,

I Spent over an hour composing a post only to hit the wrong spot on my tablet causing it to be lost. The next few days I'm working crazy amounts of hours, but will post when I'm off work and on my computer. It's just too hard with my vision problems to do on the tablet.

Just an elf about town...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1874
Author: BLACKKOBOLD2
Date: on 04/18/2016 05:19 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Wait a sec. I got this!

See, we fixed the bug that was previously causing immolate to work where it wasn't intended to work. But don't worry. You can use immolate in places other than Nelemar. It's just one hunting ground. On an unrelated note, if you wanted to use water spells for a watery area like Nelemar...too bad! We haven't figured that part out yet. Wait around a few years until we do.

Am I doin' it right?

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1875
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 04/18/2016 06:07 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


I'd like to see Immolate get changed to work like 518 in regards to which element is used.

Most of our spells should work that way actually. Hopefully if/when they do this they'll make Immolate not be garbage too.

Move it to 525/530 and un-nerf it. Problem solved. Now it's on par with 1030 and nobody can say it's OP because bards are fine.

~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs: http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1876
Author: DOUG
Date: on 04/18/2016 08:50 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>>Am I doin' it right?

I don't think so. I think you're better than this.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1877
Author: GAROFALOA
Date: on 04/18/2016 11:04 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>Unfortunately just because it might be the same 4 or 5 individuals that are loudly discouraged with the changes wizards are going through, doesn't mean there aren't a great many of us who are waiting fairly silently in the background for a more balanced outcome.

Don't take MY silence to mean i'm accepting what's being done to wizards. Methais just expresses my fury more eloquently and intelligently. I'm waiting, somewhat patiently. A little less desirous to retire Hapenlok since i performed a fixstats, and corrected a lot of stat placement screwups i made back in 2006 when i started my wizard.(Thanks Tsoran....wherever you are...) To date, the only changes that's benefitted me even a little bit was the fire lore change to 513, but even that isn't as good as it should be due to my fire lore not being where it should be. And possibly the double strike with 415....a spell which i rarely use due to still only being 1x harness power(my fault in training). Stackable Haste kind of works for me but...(see below)

I don't like the fact that water lore is being(seemingly) shoved down everyone's throats....I'll take a lot of flak for this, but you know, when i started my character, my character's back-story and RP involves the use of fire. I picked up my 24 ranks of air lore for the tonis bolt and the extra disk space. I don't like the fact that elemental strike is our professions' better alternative now that immolation is a joke. my minor elemental CS is almost a full 25 points lower than my Major/wizard. and there's no way i'm correcting that now. I don't like that we STILL can't triple in lores. I don't like rapid fire. period. I now have to air lore more if i want my reduced RT to be even close to what it was. I don't like the fact that i'm still having to use bolts, even though my plan was to migrate to a CS spell based wizard. right now? i'm training in weapons and cmans. because ...why bother? I still hate alchemy.(had to bring that up) I hate how our enchant times are still so long. is there even a purpose to this anymore? considering we can't even do anything higher than 7x

Basically, i feel like i'm eating an offal sandwich here. You know, i started playing a wizard, because being a warrior got stale. I really enjoyed playing a wizard. I feel like i'm being punished for doing something i really enjoy. It really doesn't make me so enthused about paying for a premium account. I'm not exaggerating when i say that if it hadn't been for the Continuing Saga in the landing i probably would have just retired. 

Before some smart guy brings up the 58/300 players a night being wizards again? Check the whereabouts of said wizards, i'll bet you $5 that 60 percent of them are at tables.

Anyway, i'm going to stop beating on this dead horse. I'll be watching. and waiting. Maybe i'll see an upside. But until then, a fire mage, i started and a fire mage i'll try to be.....even though the powers that be don't like that, apparently. And i'm going to continue weapons training post-cap. since i have no idea what to do right now. since the lore review.


~Andrew Hapenlok's Player

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1878
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 04/18/2016 11:18 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


VANKRASN39
Is the Water Walking effect still applicable?

It is not.

PCOFFEY77
Still seeing a few things..
Just as you 512, the Ithzir janissary shimmers and fades away, leaving you gesturing at nothingness!
And also, I'm only getting one cast of 903 to You hurl a stream of water at an Ithzir initiate, but it freezes just before impact. Carefully, you summon the chunk of ice back to your hand...

Both of these issues should be fixed. Thanks for reporting it.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1879
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 04/18/2016 11:21 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


I've made two updates to Cold Snap (512):

1.) It will now work on non-corporeal targets; however, they are able to better guard against the spell (+TD bonus of creature's level / 10). Creatures made out of fire or that emanate heat will continue to be immune (fire elementals, etc). 2.) The spell now has a minimum duration of 8 seconds.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1880
Author: PC1234
Date: on 04/18/2016 11:32 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


Creatures made out of fire or that emanate heat will continue to be immune (fire elementals, etc).
GameMaster Estild

That seems backwards. Creatures made of out of ice should be immune, but if they're made out of the fire, the ice should interact in some way to put out the fire. Even if it just melts into water which extinguishes the fire.

I've never heard of fire being immune to water/ice.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1881
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 04/18/2016 11:42 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


PC1234
That seems backwards. Creatures made of out of ice should be immune, but if they're made out of the fire, the ice should interact in some way to put out the fire. Even if it just melts into water which extinguishes the fire.

Cold Snap itself is a physical barrier. Ice is forming around the target to restrict their actions. As such, just being immune to cold does not mean the target is immune to physical obstacles, cold or not. Creatures made out of fire or that emanate heat (not the same as fire immunity, although such targets are likely to be fire immune as well) cause the freezing mist to warm up and harmlessly dissipate.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1882
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/18/2016 11:43 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>That seems backwards. Creatures made of out of ice should be immune, but if they're made out of the fire, the ice should interact in some way to put out the fire. Even if it just melts into water which extinguishes the fire.

I agree, in every other case, fire creatures are particularly susceptible to cold/water attacks and vice versa (ice creatures vs. fire attacks).

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1883
Author: DOUG
Date: on 04/18/2016 11:44 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


I tentatively like this change. Being able to manage crowd control inclusive of non-corps is useful. About the only negative things are - of course non-corps don't suffer from the impact crit scenarios (dern), and then - there's the continuing crawler breakout.

Doug


[The Rift] You notice a lost soul and a slender silvery thread. Obvious exits: east, southwest, northwest > A vaespilon drags herself in! > With a slow, inching lumber, an enormous rift crawler worms its way in. >incant 512 You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cold Snap... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a lost soul. An airy mist rolls into the room, carrying a harsh chill with it. 

 CS: + --- - TD: +451 + CvA: +25 + d100: + --- == + ---
 Warding failed!

The mist leaves an enormous rift crawler's lower half encased in a thick block of ice. 

 CS: + --- - TD: +439 + CvA: +15 + d100: + --- == + ---
 Warding failed!

The mist leaves a vaespilon's lower half encased in a thick block of ice. 

 CS: + --- - TD: +421 + CvA: +15 + d100: + --- == + ---
 Warding failed!

The mist leaves a lost soul's lower half encased in a thick block of ice. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > incant 512

Mmm-Mmmph.

> A lost soul swings a scorched black ball and chain at you! 

 AS: +374 vs DS: + --- with AvD: +17 + d100 roll: + --- = - ---
  A clean miss.

> A vaespilon swings a blackened wooden staff at you! 

 AS: +370 vs DS: + --- with AvD: +23 + d100 roll: + --- = - ---
  A clean miss.

> You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cold Snap... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a lost soul. An airy mist rolls into the room, carrying a harsh chill with it. 

 CS: + --- - TD: +451 + CvA: +25 + d100: + --- == + ---
 Warding failed!

The mist builds upon the existing thick block of ice, expanding it to cover an enormous rift crawler's entire body, trapping it in an icy tomb. 

 CS: + --- - TD: +439 + CvA: +15 + d100: + --- == + ---
 Warding failed!

The mist builds upon the existing thick block of ice, expanding it to cover a vaespilon's entire body, trapping her in an icy tomb. 

 CS: + --- - TD: +421 + CvA: +15 + d100: + --- == + ---
 Warding failed!

The mist builds upon the existing thick block of ice, expanding it to cover a lost soul's entire body, trapping her in an icy tomb. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. >l [The Rift] You notice an enormous rift crawler (frozen), a vaespilon (frozen), a lost soul (frozen) and a slender silvery thread. Obvious exits: east, southwest, northwest > An enormous rift crawler begins moving again.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1884
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/18/2016 12:00 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>1.) It will now work on non-corporeal targets; however, they are able to better guard against the spell (+TD bonus of creature's level / 10).

This is a very helpful and appreciated fix. Thank you!

>If a target is drenched from the Minor Water (903 or 518) lore effect or if you cast the spell in a watery room, the affected target(s) get -25 TD.

This part doesn't seem to be happening.

>inc 512 You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cold Snap... Your spell is ready. You gesture at an ethereal triton sentry. An airy mist rolls into the area, carrying a harsh chill with it. The dull golden nimbus surrounding an ethereal triton sentry suddenly begins to glow brightly. 

 CS: +554 - TD: +473 + CvA: +25 + d100: +46 == +152
 Warding failed!

The mist builds upon the existing thick block of ice, expanding it to cover an ethereal triton sentry's entire body, trapping her in an icy tomb. 

 CS: +554 - TD: +505 + CvA: +25 + d100: +95 == +169
 Warding failed!

As the mist touches the surface of the thick block of ice encasing a greater water elemental, it solidifies, reinforcing the icy tomb. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

>inc 519 You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation... Your spell is ready. You channel at a greater water elemental. 

 CS: +554 - TD: +520 + CvA: +25 + d100: +61 == +120
 Warding failed!

Wisps of black smoke swirl around a greater water elemental and it bursts into flame causing 50 points of damage! 

  ... 70 points of damage!
  The water elemental gurgles in agony as steam billows about!

As the fire strikes the ice block surrounding a greater water elemental, a rush of steam is released! 

  ... 25 points of damage!

The ice block encasing a greater water elemental partially melts away, leaving only its lower half froze. 

  ... 40 points of damage!
  The water elemental gurgles in agony as steam billows about!

As the fire strikes the ice block surrounding a greater water elemental, a rush of steam is released! 

  ... 65 points of damage!

The ice block encasing a greater water elemental partially melts away, leaving only its lower half froze. 

  ... 50 points of damage!
  The water elemental gurgles in agony as steam billows about!

As the fire strikes the ice block surrounding a greater water elemental, a rush of steam is released! 

  ... 25 points of damage!

The ice block encasing a greater water elemental partially melts away, leaving only its lower half froze. 

  ... 20 points of damage!
  The water elemental gurgles in agony as steam billows about!

As the fire strikes the ice block surrounding a greater water elemental, a rush of steam is released! 

  ... 20 points of damage!

The ice block encasing a greater water elemental partially melts away, leaving only its lower half froze. The flame surrounding a greater water elemental quickly die down. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1885
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/18/2016 12:10 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


Also, not sure if this is intentional, but the Major Elemental TDs for 519 and 512 for the same creature aren't the same:

>inc 519 You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation... Your spell is ready. You channel at a triton combatant. 

 CS: +554 - TD: +390 + CvA: +25 + d100: +22 == +211
 Warding failed!

Wisps of black smoke swirl around a triton combatant and he bursts into flame causing 84 points of damage! 

  ... 50 points of damage!
  A large patch of flesh is seared off a triton combatant's back.
  ... 30 points of damage!
  Extreme heat causes a triton combatant's right arm to expand and snap.  That must hurt!
  ... 20 points of damage!
  Nasty burns to abdomen, a triton combatant shrieks in pain!
  ... 1 point of damage!
  Minor burns to left hand.  Ouch.

The flames around a triton combatant continue to burn! Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. Roundtime: 3 sec. (Forcing stance down to guarded)

R>inc 512 You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Cold Snap... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a triton combatant. An airy mist rolls into the room, carrying a harsh chill with it. 

 CS: +554 - TD: +365 + CvA: +25 + d100: +18 == +232
 Warding failed!

The mist leaves a triton combatant's lower half encased in a thick block of ice. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1887
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/18/2016 12:17 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>Okay, it says the mist dissipates into a steam. Isn't steam just hot water vapor? Water doesn't have any effect on fire now?

Fire creatures (elementals at least) have sadly always been fire/steam/acid immune for whatever reason.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1888
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 04/18/2016 12:57 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


DESTINY14
This part doesn't seem to be happening.
512: CS: +554 - TD: +505 + CvA: +25 + d100: +95 == +169
519: CS: +554 - TD: +520 + CvA: +25 + d100: +61 == +120

It's working correctly. The water elemental was drenched, so gets -25 TD. However, it's non-corporeal, so also gets +10 (level (105) / 10) TD. So the net result is -15 TD from your 512.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1889
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/18/2016 01:10 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>It's working correctly. The water elemental was drenched, so gets -25 TD. However, it's non-corporeal, so also gets +10 (level (105) / 10) TD. So the net result is -15 TD from your 512.

Okay, I understand now, and it looks like the same applies for the combatant.

This satisfies half of my wizard post-cap requests, so thank you again for making the needed adjustments.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1890
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/18/2016 01:12 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>The ice block encasing a greater water elemental partially melts away, leaving only its lower half froze.

This last word seems to be a grammatical typo though instead of frozen.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1891
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 04/18/2016 01:29 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


DESTINY14
This last word seems to be a grammatical typo though instead of frozen.

Fixed.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1892
Author: BLACKKOBOLD2
Date: on 04/18/2016 01:30 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


You've been posting more or less the same complaint regarding a lack of planning/direction. Congratulations on managing to moderate your tone.

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1893
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 04/18/2016 01:39 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


I still think the duration formula (warding margin / 5) + 3 needs to be lightened up some, but the non-corporeal thing is a nice buff.

How about for fire instead of being immune to it, its duration is cut in half? Fire doesn't usually melt ice instantly, especially a big block of it.


~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs: http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1894
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/18/2016 01:49 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>I still think the duration formula (warding margin / 5) + 3 needs to be lightened up some, but the non-corporeal thing is a nice buff.

It's hard to complain about this part when we now have the same minimum as 316. However, 316 (and 135) can benefit from 340, while elemental spells only receive the Truehand benefit.

Can a NIR confirm that the 8 second duration starts after the second cast when the creature is immobilized?

Finally, can there be an alternative to pay the 24 mana upfront in a single CHANNELed 512 cast, which also gives 3 seconds of hard RT but negates the need to sit through 3 seconds of potential vulnerability after the targets are rooted but not immobilized?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1895
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 04/18/2016 03:17 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


>It's hard to complain about this part when we now have the same minimum as 316. However, 316 (and 135) can benefit from 340, while elemental spells only receive the Truehand benefit.

It's not really a huge deal, since the only effect it would have on me would be on the fire side in the Confluence, which I usually stick to the cold side because fire4lyfe. I don't know the mechanics of 316 other than it freezes things in place, but if the durations work the same then that's good enough. I'm just really hoping that MjE gets something else to get me out of this 415 build so I can optimize my CS again. I like 415 itself I just really hate splitting my CS. It just makes hunting much less annoying than using Immolate, even with the reduced CS.

~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs: http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1896
Author: PCOFFEY77
Date: on 04/18/2016 06:20 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold Snap (512) Released!


Thanks! I appreciate the quick fix.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1897
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 04/19/2016 06:29 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


I went ahead and bugged the new issues this morning:

Submitted bug "Immolation - new bugs introduced with last bug fix" to play.net's bug tracking database under category "Magic" with these details: "Three issues - critters not dropping to the ground when putting out flames, spell fizzles 100% of the time in damp rooms immediately after casting (before it was maybe 5%?), messaging showing up in other rooms. Details in Wizards->Major Elemental Circle posts 1871 and 1872"

-- Robert

A siren flails wildly, trying to extinguish the flames that surround her.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1898
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 04/19/2016 01:38 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Robert
1) In the past, when I would cast this spell the critters would frequently drop to the ground and roll giving you the benefit of them now being prone and in round time.

Fixed.

Robert
2) Additionally, it now seems that 100% of the time if there is water present then immolation will end immediately after it was cast.
I'll have to dig through my logs but I am fairly certain that critters used to drop and roll at least some of the time in these rooms previously (and sometime there would be the bug where they mysteriously weren't on fire any more). Is it intended to be 100% chance of extinguishing the fire in wet rooms going forward? I can see why this might occur some of the time but given we are not totally submerged in water I don't agree that this should be a 100% of the time occurrence. Maybe give them an increased chance of putting the fire out in a watery room when they drop and roll or something like that.

Being in a watery room would always extinguish the flames early and always after rolling exactly 1 time (for creatures). I took a copy of the spell from 2012 (as it stayed exactly the same until 2016) to verify:

>
An ethereal triton sentry chants in an incomprehensible language, causing streams of dim grey energy to lash about its hands.
>incant 519
You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an ethereal triton sentry.
CS: +545 - TD: +437 + CvA: +25 + d100: +26 == +159
Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around an ethereal triton sentry and it bursts into flame!
... 35 points of damage!
Painful attack flays the leg from thigh to calf.
New skin lies, snakelike, beneath the old.
It is knocked to the ground!
... 20 points of damage!
A fine strike immobilizes the left leg for an instant.
The triton sentry looks miffed.
... 25 points of damage!
Massive blow strikes the triton sentry and drives it back!
Good thing those ribs aren't made of bone.
The flames around an ethereal triton sentry continue to burn!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
An ethereal triton sentry rolls around on the floor, trying to smother the flames that surround it.
The flames surrounding an ethereal triton sentry continue to burn.
>
The flames surrounding an ethereal triton sentry quickly die down as steam rises around it.
>
An ethereal triton sentry points an ethereal, clawed finger toward you!
CS: +426 - TD: +436 + CvA: +15 + d100: +54 == +59
Warded off!
>
An ethereal triton sentry stands up with a grunt.

I've updated it to match the old functionality of getting at least one attempted roll before the flames are extinguished.

Robert
3) Finally, the messaging seems to be forgetting which room it is in now... I've highlighted several flares that occurred on a radical that wasn't in the room with us. Notice how the radical is conveniently ignoring that is is on fire and choosing to cast in this example as well...

Fixed.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1899
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 04/19/2016 04:05 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Excellent. Thank you and agree on the updated version of 2) (not that you needed my agreement :p).

I'll do some more testing over the next few days!

-- Robert

Raggler squeakily says, "Muffins are also known to be one of the most healthiest foods in the world."

Raggler squeakily says, "It's a fact."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1900
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 04/19/2016 05:17 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>> 1) In the past, when I would cast this spell the critters would frequently drop to the ground and roll giving you the benefit of them now being prone and in round time.

>> Fixed.

I'll spare you the logs this time around but I don't see this working yet. At one point I had 5 critters (defenders, radicals, and combatants) all flailing about wildly but none of them were dropping to the ground and rolling. This was in a non-damp room.

-- Robert

Raggler squeakily says, "Muffins are also known to be one of the most healthiest foods in the world."

Raggler squeakily says, "It's a fact."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1901
Author: ALSTHAR
Date: on 04/19/2016 05:33 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Perhaps it was just an overly humid day? did you SENSE ROOM with a properly attuned hygrometer in your right hand?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1902
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 04/19/2016 05:44 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Robert
I'll spare you the logs this time around but I don't see this working yet. At one point I had 5 critters (defenders, radicals, and combatants) all flailing about wildly but none of them were dropping to the ground and rolling. This was in a non-damp room.

If they're flailing about, it's the same as trying to roll around (and unrelated to water), but that messaging should have only applied to creatures that cannot be knocked down. It's fixed now.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1903
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 04/19/2016 06:22 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Thank you Estild.

Things seemed to be working as expected for the last half of my hunt this evening! :-) I'll see if I can't break it in some other ways this coming weekend but I didn't see anything obvious left out this round.

I really do appreciate your time and patience in working through all of the issues so that the spell is working as intended.

-- Robert

Raggler squeakily says, "Muffins are also known to be one of the most healthiest foods in the world."

Raggler squeakily says, "It's a fact."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1904
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/20/2016 09:34 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


It just really seems wrong that 415 is still significantly more effective than 519, even with sub-optimal MnE CS and if 519 is CHANNELed in offensive with one open hand.

Also, it seems strange that 415 can utilize the attunement synergies provided by 425 and 502, while 512 and 519 specifically tie you into one element and allow no opportunity to benefit from 502, 425, or follow-up bolts of your character's attunement for all that attunement has been pushed upon us.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1905
Author: PC1234
Date: on 04/22/2016 02:45 PM PDT
Subject: Spell 535 - Still buggy


>incant 535 You recite a series of mystical phrases while raising your hands, invoking Haste... Your spell is ready. You gesture. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.


Why is there no message being displayed when the spell is cast?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1906
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 04/22/2016 03:09 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Spell 535 - Still buggy


It went by so fast you missed it? :p

-- Robert

Raggler squeakily says, "Muffins are also known to be one of the most healthiest foods in the world."

Raggler squeakily says, "It's a fact."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1907
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 04/23/2016 07:36 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


And... we're back to the logs again...

As of today, it seems like either some additional work was done since I tested on 4/19 or the spell was completely reverted to before the couple of rounds of bug fixes.

Two things to notice: 1) Initial RT is not being applied. 2) Even though the critter is ignoring the spell, it is still sputtering out after 1 round in the damp area (100% of the time as near as I can tell). I don't think the critter should get this benefit if they aren't going to roll.


>n [Ruined Temple, Second Floor] Sections of the eastern wall have been carved out around an arched window, forming permanent shelves. None are currently used, and each is covered with a thin layer of moisture and mold. You also see a triton combatant and some muck. Obvious exits: north, south, west

.cc immolation stance offensive incant immolation stance defensive You are now in an offensive stance. >Your disk arrives, following you dutifully. >You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation... 

Fresh combatant, initial cast of the spell, expecting 10s RT to be applied.

Your spell is ready. You gesture at a triton combatant. 

 CS: +535 - TD: +390 + CvA: +25 + d100: +57 == +227
 Warding failed!

Wisps of black smoke swirl around a triton combatant and she bursts into flame causing 53 points of damage! 

  ... 50 points of damage!
  A large patch of flesh is seared off a triton combatant's back.
  ... 20 points of damage!
  Flames incinerate muscle tissue in neck exposing the trachea.  More than you ever wanted to see.
  ... 5 points of damage!
  Minor burns to chest.  That hurts a bit.

The flames around a triton combatant continue to burn! Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. 

It is now on fire.

>Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded. >look [Ruined Temple, Second Floor] Sections of the eastern wall have been carved out around an arched window, forming permanent shelves. None are currently used, and each is covered with a thin layer of moisture and mold. You also see the earth brown Faulkil disk, a triton combatant and some muck. Obvious exits: north, south, west >.cc manaleech stance offensive 

Observation: Seems like this cam up rather early.

The flames surrounding a triton combatant flare up violently... 

  ... 5 points of damage!
  Minor burns to abdomen.  Looks painful.

The flames around a triton combatant continue to burn! 


Less than 5s have gone by since I cast the spell and he's swinging at me already! 
Per your earlier post there should be 10s of RT applied at the initial cast.

>A triton combatant thrusts with a razor-tined pale green trident at you! 

 AS: +414 vs DS: +650 with AvD: +27 + 60 + d40 roll: +29 = -120
  A clean miss.

>incant manaleech stance defensive You are now in an offensive stance. >You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Mana Leech... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a triton combatant. 

 CS: +535 - TD: +390 + CvA: +25 + d100: +95 == +265
 Warding failed!

A dull grey beam momentarily materializes between you and a triton combatant. She shakes violently! You feel a sudden rush of power as you absorb 86 mana! Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded. >.def stance defensive You are now in a defensive stance. 

I am seeing the spell ignored fairly frequently (which is an option) but it seems like every time the spell sputters out after 1 round in damp areas even when they don't roll!  Honestly I think they need to roll to get the 100% sputter out after 1 round.

>The flames surrounding a triton combatant quickly die down as steam rises around her.


>A triton combatant thrusts with a razor-tined pale green trident at you! 

 AS: +414 vs DS: +688 with AvD: +27 + d100 roll: +8 = -239
  A clean miss.

>.cc 906 stance offensive incant 906 stance defensive You are now in an offensive stance. >Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Fire... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a triton combatant. You hurl a stream of fire at a triton combatant! 

 AS: +510 vs DS: +268 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +13 = +281
  ... and hit for 89 points of damage!
  Flames cook a triton combatant's chest.  Looks about medium well.

Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. >Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded.

.cc 906 stance offensive incant 906stance defensive You are now in an offensive stance. >Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Fire... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a triton combatant. You hurl a stream of fire at a triton combatant! 

 AS: +514 vs DS: +254 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +46 = +332
  ... and hit for 96 points of damage!
  Nasty burns to chest make you wish you never heard of heartburn.

The triton combatant collapses to the floor with a splash, gurgling once with a wrathful look on her face before expiring. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. >Cast Round Time in effect: Setting stance to guarded. >sea comYou search the triton combatant. You discard the combatant's useless equipment. She didn't carry any silver. She had nothing of interest. A triton combatant's body sinks into the water, quickly scattering and dissolving out of sight.



-- Robert

Raggler squeakily says, "Muffins are also known to be one of the most healthiest foods in the world."

Raggler squeakily says, "It's a fact."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1908
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 04/23/2016 07:37 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Bug submitted:

Immolation seems to have been reverted or new bugs introduced since 4/19 Submitted bug "Immolation seems to have been reverted or new bugs introduced since 4/19" to play.net's bug tracking database under category "Magic" with these details: "Initial 10s RT not being applied. Flaring seems at a 'different' time than before. See detailed log/post in Wizards->Major Elt->Post 1907."

-- Robert

Raggler squeakily says, "Muffins are also known to be one of the most healthiest foods in the world."

Raggler squeakily says, "It's a fact."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1909
Author: ZENDADA
Date: on 04/23/2016 08:21 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Been trying all the wizard spells lately. Immolation seems more like a good opening damage disabler than a killer. I'm finding Major Fire much more more potent, Major Shock pretty nasty (air lore mage), with Hurl Boulder and Minor Acid effective for the mana.

Then again, I stopped at 430, 540, and am barreling towards 950.

Chad, player of a few

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1910
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 04/23/2016 09:11 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Just revert the spell to pre-nerf and move it to 525/530 already until real wizard fixes can be implemented.

This whole thing has gotten beyond ridiculous.

~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs: http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1911
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/23/2016 11:54 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


121 mana for a 5 cast kill for a single champion in Duskruin and you wonder why wizards are so weak with no effective instant kill next to all the other pures. This is paying the 5 mana penalty too using 515 on cooldown and having lightning strike 3 times for soft CT channeled, one open handed offensive 519.

I wonder how the average character is supposed to kill the other 24 creatures in the run.

>inc 415 You trace a simple rune while intoning the mystical phrase for Elemental Strike... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a muscular tattooed champion. 

 CS: +520 - TD: +431 + CvA: -13 + d100: +67 == +143
 Warding failed!

You blast a muscular tattooed champion for 27 points of damage. The elemental energy surrounding you amplifies the attack! 

  ... 25 points of damage!
  Nice blow to right hand!
  The tattooed champion is knocked over by the blast!

A vortex of elemental energy suddenly strikes a muscular tattooed champion! 

 CS: +520 - TD: +431 + CvA: -13 + d100: +4 == +80
 Warded off!

Cast Roundtime 1 Second.

>inc 519 You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation... Your spell is ready. Seeing an opportunity, you accelerate time and empower your spell! You channel at a muscular tattooed champion. 

 CS: +559 - TD: +435 + CvA: -13 + d100: +85 == +196
 Warding failed!

Wisps of black smoke swirl around a muscular tattooed champion and she bursts into flame causing 100 points of damage! 

  ... 40 points of damage!
  Extreme heat causes a muscular tattooed champion's left leg to expand and snap.  That must hurt!
  ... 40 points of damage!
  Extreme heat causes a muscular tattooed champion's right arm to expand and snap.  That must hurt!
  ... 15 points of damage!
  Minor burns to left arm.  That hurts a bit.
  ... 5 points of damage!
  Minor burns to left leg.  That hurts a bit.

The flames around a muscular tattooed champion continue to burn! Cast Roundtime 1 Second. Roundtime: 0 sec.

>inc 519 You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation... Your spell is ready. Seeing an opportunity, you accelerate time and empower your spell! You channel at a muscular tattooed champion. 

 CS: +559 - TD: +435 + CvA: -13 + d100: +92 == +203
 Warding failed!

Wisps of black smoke swirl around a muscular tattooed champion and she bursts into flame causing 115 points of damage! 

  ... 50 points of damage!
  Skin and some muscle burnt off chest.
  ... 50 points of damage!
  A large patch of flesh is seared off a muscular tattooed champion's back.
  ... 20 points of damage!
  Burst of flames to chest toasts skin nicely.
  ... 5 points of damage!
  Minor burns to left hand.  Ouch.

The flames around a muscular tattooed champion continue to burn! Cast Roundtime 1 Second. Roundtime: 0 sec.

>inc 519 You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation... Your spell is ready. You channel at a muscular tattooed champion. 

 CS: +559 - TD: +435 + CvA: -13 + d100: +87 == +198
 Warding failed!

Wisps of black smoke swirl around a muscular tattooed champion and she bursts into flame causing 115 points of damage! 

  ... 40 points of damage!
  Extreme heat causes a muscular tattooed champion's left arm to expand and snap.  That must hurt!
  ... 40 points of damage!
  Extreme heat causes a muscular tattooed champion's right arm to expand and snap.  That must hurt!
  The champion's military pick falls to the ground.
  ... 20 points of damage!
  Burst of flames to left arm burns skin bright red.
  ... 5 points of damage!
  Minor burns to left leg.  That hurts a bit.

The flames around a muscular tattooed champion continue to burn! Cast Roundtime 1 Second. Roundtime: 3 sec.

R>inc 519 You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Immolation... Your spell is ready. You channel at a muscular tattooed champion. 

 CS: +559 - TD: +435 + CvA: -13 + d100: +17 == +128
 Warding failed!

Small flames of yellow and orange hues begin to lick at a muscular tattooed champion. Before long, the flames grow more violent, reaching hungrily up her body. She falls to the floor and the flames engulf her. Black smoke rises in tendrils from the large blaze around a muscular tattooed champion as she burns. With an ear-piercing cry of agony, the tattooed champion dies. Earthen elemental energy energizes you. Cast Roundtime 1 Second. Roundtime: 3 sec.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1912
Author: MDEVEAU
Date: on 04/23/2016 03:02 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Come on now, aren't you having fun? :P Obviously they want all wizard builds to be war mages for duskruin.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1914
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/23/2016 03:11 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>Come on now, aren't you having fun? :P Obviously they want all wizard builds to be war mages for duskruin.

Nope, it's the opposite of fun, and certainly isn't inspiring me to keep my account open after this month finishes. Why would I, when the wizard is useless?

Meanwhile, 1115 completely decimates everything usually in a single shot even without 240.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1915
Author: MDEVEAU
Date: on 04/23/2016 04:36 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Close your account (or all) then. It's what a number of us did as its the only recourse we have to demonstrate to management that their development strategy as currently implemented for capped wizards (or in this case, special events) is not ideal. The only reason why Simu has been able to continue to develop in this manner is because people are addicted to their product and the idea of going without results in a visceral response. The consumer really is to blame because they, like the crack addict, will do anything to get their fix.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1916
Author: BLACKKOBOLD2
Date: on 04/24/2016 12:51 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


It's not my wish to see this game fail, but at this point I think what's likely to make it fail in the long run is development like this. So, if you're feeling fed up enough, I wouldn't dissuade you from making that choice. You're clearly someone who pumps thousands of dollars into Simutronics' coffers between subscription fees and events like Duskruin. Even that by itself might not be enough to register with them, but perhaps there's a chance that they'll begin to recognize that we have legitimate concerns that need to be addressed.

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1917
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 04/24/2016 06:53 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>but perhaps there's a chance that they'll begin to recognize that we have legitimate concerns that need to be addressed.

Sometimes I feel like getting the government to realize they have a spending problem would be an easier task.

~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs: http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1918
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 04/26/2016 09:41 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Robert
Two things to notice:
1) Initial RT is not being applied.
2) Even though the critter is ignoring the spell, it is still sputtering out after 1 round in the damp area (100% of the time as near as I can tell). I don't think the critter should get this benefit if they aren't going to roll.
Fresh combatant, initial cast of the spell, expecting 10s RT to be applied.
The flames surrounding a triton combatant flare up violently...
Less than 5s have gone by since I cast the spell and he's swinging at me already!
Per your earlier post there should be 10s of RT applied at the initial cast.

The fire DoT only flares every 10 seconds. Your log shows that you cast 519, then the fire DoT flares, and finally the creature attacks. Unfortunately, there's no real way to show time elapsed in the log (unless you're continuously applying roundtime to yourself), but it seems to me that 10 seconds did elapse, which is why the creature did not attack sooner. Is it possible that you lagged out for a few seconds? Have you been able to reproduce that issue since then?

The spell always ends exactly after 1 round when in water - it always has. Creatures have a 25% chance to not roll around (and thus receive no roundtime for that round). These two are unrelated events. That's also why you don't see the combatant try to roll around in the above log.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1919
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 04/26/2016 06:13 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>> The fire DoT only flares every 10 seconds. Your log shows that you cast 519, then the fire DoT flares, and finally the creature attacks. Unfortunately, there's no real way to show time elapsed in the log (unless you're continuously applying roundtime to yourself), but it seems to me that 10 seconds did elapse, which is why the creature did not attack sooner. Is it possible that you lagged out for a few seconds?

I generally don't have any lag and would discount any testing if there was any noticeable lag at the time. I use my attacks to capture RT given I pretty much do them as soon as RT is up (I was being generous in saying that up to 5 seconds had passed in my log example.

>> Have you been able to reproduce that issue since then?

Honestly I've started playing other characters and other games vs. hunting with Faulkil due to the current challenges with this spell (I was sort of hoping the spell would get fixed based on the information already shared so just found other things to to in the meantime).

I'll make it a point to go in and do some additional testing either later in the week or this coming weekend latest and try to capture at least three new examples. Maybe I'll see if I can create some sort of Ruby Script that echoes time with seconds every 10 seconds or so or that I can call with each cast to show the current time with seconds.

>> The spell always ends exactly after 1 round when in water - it always has. Creatures have a 25% chance to not roll around (and thus receive no roundtime for that round). These two are unrelated events. That's also why you don't see the combatant try to roll around in the above log.

On this... I wasn't arguing that the spell didn't work this way in the past so much as, given some of the recent adjustments made and this being the disabler version, maybe they should have to actually roll to get the 100% chance for the spell to end in the current version.


One of the characters I've been playing more of recently is my cleric. While it lacks the same flash as immolation, Bind is a great example of a reliable warding-based disabler spell. You know if you were successful or not in casting it, the spell stops opponent casting and maneuvers while it is active, you have a pretty decent idea of how long the spell effect will last based on your warding margin, and you get a clear indication of when the spell effect expires.

Immolation is lacking in that you don't know if you were successful (you know you successfully cast the spell but it may not matter at all), it doesn't reliably stop manuevers or casting, and you don't know how long it will last. You get the 'benefit' of some damage up front and there is still some kill chance so I guess you can call it a trade-off but I'm definitely finding I like bind with my cleric much more than I like Immolation and I don't see anything else that even comes close in our current spell selection. Also, bind is 4 less mana to cast so I would argue the additional 4 mana covers at least the damage component for Immolation.

Anyway... getting off track and a little frustrated so I'll stop while we're ahead. Look for my combat example / updated bug post by this weekend at the latest.


-- Robert

Raggler squeakily says, "Muffins are also known to be one of the most healthiest foods in the world."

Raggler squeakily says, "It's a fact."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1920
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 04/26/2016 06:21 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Disregard my comparison to bind. I confused it with prayer of holding which I've also been using and works as I was describing but only against undead. Both spells have been working great for my cleric but that's a different story...

-- Robert

Raggler squeakily says, "Muffins are also known to be one of the most healthiest foods in the world."

Raggler squeakily says, "It's a fact."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1922
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 04/27/2016 05:20 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


I doubt I'll get an answer due to the new "not telling you anything until it's done because I might get hit by a bus tomorrow" thing with dev, but is Immolate going to get any love? Or has staff decided that the spell is fine as is and needs no further development? Don't care about time frames or whatever. I just want to know if staff is done with this spell or if there is/will be something in the works for it to make it stop being garbage.

Thanks.

~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs: http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1923
Author: BLACKKOBOLD2
Date: on 04/27/2016 12:58 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Oh, I wouldn't be surprised to see a few tweaks moving forward. Speaking of which, since it will likely be on the order of years before we see new post-cap hunting, it might be a nice touch to consider removing/reducing immunity to this spell, in particular the disabling version, so that capped hunters aren't forced to rely on other spells that we don't yet have or move to areas that don't yet exist as a reasonable alternative. The impact on pre-cap hunters should be negligible in either case, as 19 mana for a disabler is prohibitively expensive until well into the post-cap.

If you were hoping to regain some of that former glory, I would just forget about it. I expect this to loosely follow the sorcery track: Send in the wrecking ball, and then gradually build the class back up over a matter of years. Although I certainly hope the turnaround time for wizards is drastically improved, as I don't wish to die of old age before this "plan" is realized. The good news is that if they do follow that model, by 2030 wizards should be the envy of the GS world and lores will provide meaningful choices at last!

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1924
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 04/27/2016 01:01 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


> The good news is that if they do follow that model, by 2030 wizards should be the envy of the GS world and lores will provide meaningful choices at last!

Always find the silver lining.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1925
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 04/27/2016 02:27 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>since it will likely be on the order of years before we see new post-cap hunting

Isn't Sea of Fire coming out this year?

~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs: http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1926
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/27/2016 03:11 PM PDT
Subject: 515 proc still subject to 1 second CT


This makes the 0 second RT useless since it's taking the maximum of 0 or 1 seconds:

>inc 907 Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Major Cold... Your spell is ready. Seeing an opportunity, you accelerate time and empower your spell! You channel at a scarred fire giant champion. You hurl a freezing ball of pure cold at a scarred fire giant champion! 

 AS: +XXX vs DS: +108 with AvD: +17 + d100 roll: +44 = +XXX
  ... and hit for 123 points of damage!
  Icy blast takes right arm off at the shoulder!
  The champion's awl-pike falls to the ground.

A scarred fire giant champion wails in agony as the frost dances over her body! 

  ... 30 points of damage!
  A chilly blast strikes the fire giant champion in the chest, knocking her back a step.

The freezing ball of pure cold strikes a scarred fire giant champion, blossoming into a much larger sphere of frost upon impact. 

  ... 10 points of damage!
  A frosty blow to the neck.  Bet that smarts!

Cast Roundtime 1 Second. Roundtime: 0 sec. >inc 907 Wait 1 sec.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1927
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 04/27/2016 03:27 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 515 proc still subject to 1 second CT


DESTINY14
This makes the 0 second RT useless since it's taking the maximum of 0 or 1 seconds:

No, it isn't. If the lore benefit didn't kick in and you tried to channel the spell, it would have took you 3 seconds of roundtime.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1928
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/27/2016 03:32 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 515 proc still subject to 1 second CT


>No, it isn't. If the lore benefit didn't kick in and you tried to channel the spell, it would have took you 3 seconds of roundtime.

Yes, but why does it say 0 then if it's not really 0 in total? That seems misleading.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1929
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 04/27/2016 03:36 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 515 proc still subject to 1 second CT


Cast Roundtime 1 Second.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1931
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/27/2016 03:45 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 515 proc still subject to 1 second CT


I understand that part but saying it's 0 RT instead of 3 RT is overstating its actual benefit by 1/3.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1932
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 04/27/2016 04:50 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 515 proc still subject to 1 second CT


DESTINY14
I understand that part but saying it's 0 RT instead of 3 RT is overstating its actual benefit by 1/3.

No, it's not. You received 0 seconds of RT for that action. You were not able to immediately cast again due to castRT, not RT. In the above log, you could have immediately performed any other action other than casting, since you were not in RT.

"Wait X sec." = castRT "...wait X seconds." = RT

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1933
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 04/27/2016 06:31 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


I spent a good 30 minutes casting immolation at things and wasn't able to reproduce the issue. I guess I'll call it working as intended at present but I'll leave the extra line in my cast code that throws a timestamp each cast in case I observe the issue again.

-- Robert

Raggler squeakily says, "Muffins are also known to be one of the most healthiest foods in the world."

Raggler squeakily says, "It's a fact."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1934
Author: MEKK1
Date: on 04/27/2016 06:35 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>>Isn't Sea of Fire coming out this year?>>

Just like it was supposed to come out almost a year ago?

Character formerly known as Drauz

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1935
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 04/27/2016 06:47 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Methais
I doubt I'll get an answer due to the new "not telling you anything until it's done because I might get hit by a bus tomorrow" thing with dev, but is Immolate going to get any love? Or has staff decided that the spell is fine as is and needs no further development? Don't care about time frames or whatever. I just want to know if staff is done with this spell or if there is/will be something in the works for it to make it stop being garbage.

No, there are no planned updates for Immolation (519). It's working as intended and to the desired level, which is comparable to Divine Fury (317) and Wither (1115). A comparison against tens of thousands of casts for each of those spells was performed to make such an analysis. Elemental Strike (415) is an outlier, as the lore benefit was never intended to hit the same target twice. It will be eventually be fixed, but we're focused on a few other things first (wizard and non-wizard related).

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1936
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 04/27/2016 06:52 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>Elemental Strike (415) is an outlier, as the lore benefit was never intended to hit the same target twice.

That conflicts with what Cyraex posted on 8/24/15:

https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Elemental_lore_review_(saved_posts)#Elemental_Strike_.28415.29

>For clarification, is this effect based on the casters fire lore ranks or fire lore bonus? Asking slightly differently, if I have 100 Ranks of fire lore is my chance to cast on a 2nd created 50% (based on ranks) or 100% (based on bonus)? If I have more than 100% chance for the second target does that give me an opportunity to hit a third target as well? - PEREGRINEFALCON

>The calculation is based on the Elemental Lore Fire bonus. I'm not sure what you mean by a third target. The original cast will hit one creature, if you have have a 100% chance of a second strike, it will target a random creature in the room. If there is only one creature in the room, it will strike the the same creature again. -GM CYRAEX

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1937
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 04/27/2016 06:55 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


If we get enough reviews this game will be as fun as some of my meetings at work...

-- Robert

Raggler squeakily says, "Muffins are also known to be one of the most healthiest foods in the world."

Raggler squeakily says, "It's a fact."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1938
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 04/27/2016 06:56 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


VANKRASN39
That conflicts with what Cyraex posted on 8/24/15:

That was a statement based upon how it worked at the time of posting. As I stated, the design never intended for that to be possible.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1939
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 04/27/2016 06:58 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>That was a statement based upon how it worked at the time of posting. As I stated, the design never intended for that to be possible.

So why wouldn't he include or you follow up with the fact that it was broken? That's very odd.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1940
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/27/2016 07:02 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>No, there are no planned updates for Immolation (519). It's working as intended and to the desired level, which is comparable to Divine Fury (317) and Wither (1115). A comparison against tens of thousands of casts for each of those spells was performed to make such an analysis.

And yet it's clear from both actual player experience and tests that 519 is NOT comparable with either 317 or 1115, especially without access to 240.

To put this another way, reliable CS-based spells are typically used at the post-cap level as the near guaranteed instant kill or at the very least, heavy stun and immobilization to most creatures. The thing you turn to when you don't have the time or mana to plink away with attrition-based jabbing bolt spells. Now there is no scenario where 519 can be used to even disable, and unlike the other two, many things are fire immune, which renders the entire spell incapable of damaging entire types of creatures at all. 317 still deals damage even if only on the concussion cycle.

Finally, it's been proven that 317 and 1115 both have much higher levels of initial concussion cycle damage, which reduces the reliance on the later crit cycles to 1) activate the cycle, 2) be used on a creature that can be crit killed and 3) have a favorable crit randomization roll.

Every other post-cap profession, and other pures especially, has a reliable instant kill mechanism that is nearly guaranteed to incapacitate or instantly kill something in one shot, when one shot is all you have the time or mana to attempt. If 519 is no longer it, there should be something in the works for wizards to not leave us as the weakest combat pures. Nerfing everyone else is not the solution and provides no fun for anyone.

In summary, sorcerers are at the top of the combat heap, being able to achieve near instant mass (717) and single-target (720) kills.

Empaths are a close second with the same ability to achieve near guaranteed instant mass (1117 combination) and single target (240/1115) kills.

Clerics don't have any quick or reliable mass kill, though they have the most powerful mass disabler in 316, but their 240/317 is comparable to what empaths can achieve on a single target basis.

Wizards have the ability to kill in mass via 515/518 but it's by far the most mana intensive option of the lot and nowhere near instant or guaranteed like 717 is. You still have to rely on things to die over a period of at least several seconds via attrition. On a single-target instant kill level, wizards come up empty.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1941
Author: TGO02
Date: on 04/27/2016 07:21 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>Elemental Strike (415) is an outlier, as the lore benefit was never intended to hit the same target twice. It will be eventually be fixed, but we're focused on a few other things first (wizard and non-wizard related).

You have to be kidding me. It's not bad enough that the GMs made Immolation the joke of the entire game but now you're going to go ahead and nerf 415, the only real CS spell wizards have left anymore?

Just leave well enough alone already. Geez.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1942
Author: TGO02
Date: on 04/27/2016 07:22 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>That was a statement based upon how it worked at the time of posting. As I stated, the design never intended for that to be possible.

You've gotta be kidding me again.

Who talks like this? "Yeah this is how the spell works." Then months later "Well what I meant was...this is how the spell works...AT THIS TIME...but I'm not going to go ahead and clarify that it's currently a bug."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1943
Author: TGO02
Date: on 04/27/2016 07:40 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


On a related note I have an awesome idea for a new item in the game, it can maybe even be a God auction item: when worn your class appears to be sorcerer to everyone else, including GMs! With this awesome class concealer item worn you are no longer subjected to all of the wizard "fixes" and instead receive an endless stream of buffs and perks.

Thoughts?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1944
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 04/27/2016 07:42 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


TGO02
Who talks like this?

No one. You're talking about 2 separate statements from 2 separate people.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1945
Author: TGO02
Date: on 04/27/2016 07:49 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>No one. You're talking about 2 separate statements from 2 separate people.

Well, no, because you're in a sense speaking for him.

So either Cyraex had no idea it was a bug at the time, or he was indeed omitting the bit of information that it was a bug.

If it was the former one really has to wonder why no other GM at the time stepped in and said "Just to be clear, this is currently a bug and will be 'fixed' at some point."

It honestly sounds like the GMs didn't realize how "good" 415 is (well in actuality how terrible 519 is in comparison) and now just want to "fix" it and are trying to be suave about it by claiming it was always broken.

The lore "benefit" already makes the spell 5 mana more expensive, does it really need "fixing"?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1946
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/27/2016 07:52 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Is this stuff tested before it's released? In both the original post by GM Cyraex and the actual coding, it was clearly designed and coded to hit two targets, so saying now that you didn't know and it's not intended is unfathomable to me.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1947
Author: KITHUS
Date: on 04/27/2016 07:53 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Obviously it was an oversight. I'm still amazed that there's all this ruckus over wizards CS spells. You picked the BOLT casting class. If there's an issue with wizard lethality it should be addressed via bolts.

Keith/Brinret/Shiun

Keith is correct

Wyrom, APM

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Help%20for%20Players/Policy%20Discussions/view/246

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1948
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 04/27/2016 07:53 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>You're talking about 2 separate statements from 2 separate people.

but this is 8 months later. Not once in 8 months in all the times 415 has been brought up has anyone indicated that the spell was not working as intended.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1949
Author: TGO02
Date: on 04/27/2016 07:54 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>In both the original post by GM Cyraex and the actual coding, it was clearly designed and coded to hit two targets

That's not the part they are "fixing", they are fixing the part where it currently hits the same critter twice. So if you're in a room with just 1 critter 415 will only ever hit once.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1950
Author: TGO02
Date: on 04/27/2016 07:55 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>You picked the BOLT casting class.

And rogues picked the LOCKPICKING class and they have the nerve to want to hunt too?

Empaths picked the HEALING class and they want bolt spells AND CS spells? The lunacy.

Clerics picked the RAISING class and they want bolt spells AND CS spells? Will the madness never end?

Monks picked the UNARMED class and they want...okay bad example!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1951
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/27/2016 07:56 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>That's not the part they are "fixing", they are fixing the part where it currently hits the same critter twice. So if you're in a room with just 1 critter 415 will only ever hit once.

Yeah I know, I mis-typed. Still this is completely just throwing spaghetti at the wall at this point.

And of course unlike everyone with their quickstrike migration, we get no lore migration or additional fixskills to repair the continued decimation of the class.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1952
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/27/2016 07:56 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


The remaining ruckus is over the lack of reliable instant kill tactics at the post-cap level that every other pure and most every other sufficiently trained and equipped profession enjoys. I've already spelled them all out.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1954
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 04/27/2016 09:12 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>No, there are no planned updates for Immolation (519). It's working as intended and to the desired level, which is comparable to Divine Fury (317) and Wither (1115). A comparison against tens of thousands of casts for each of those spells was performed to make such an analysis. Elemental Strike (415) is an outlier, as the lore benefit was never intended to hit the same target twice. It will be eventually be fixed, but we're focused on a few other things first (wizard and non-wizard related).

Yeah well...no, it's not. What makes you even think it is especially considering the fact that pretty much every wizard thinks this spell is a joke now? If it was on par with those other spells, then why don't clerics and empaths consider those spells a joke? Serious question.

>>Elemental Strike (415) is an outlier, as the lore benefit was never intended to hit the same target twice. It will be eventually be fixed, but we're focused on a few other things first (wizard and non-wizard related).

Care to explain why not even one time in all the posts and logs of 415 and discussions about the spell vs. Immolate was this mentioned to us? I honestly have a hard time believing this is the case and is more a case of "Immolate wizards are switching to 415 builds for the double cast and we don't want them doing that. But since we've already outraged them to an immeasurable degree with the butchering we already gave them, we'll say it was a bug."

Since you guys are hell bent on wrecking us, can we throw this "no info on new stuff until it's done" thing out the window and just tell us what you guys actually are working on for wizards? We're already well aware that Konacon or whoever could get hit by a bus or go be a Buddhist monk that could cause all kinds of problems for it so there's no reason to hide behind that as a reason to not give us any info.

I'm really getting tired of having to migrate from one build to another because you guys keep nerfing everything. So if you could just inform us on what's in store for us so we'll have some sort of clue at all the direction we're being shoehorned in, it would be appreciated.

What other professions are on the nerf list if any, so I'll know what else to avoid?

>No one. You're talking about 2 separate statements from 2 separate people.

We're talking about 2 separate statements from 1 company. I mean was there some reason you didn't jump in and clarify it after he posted that? I'm quite sure you didn't just happen to miss that post or something.


~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs: http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1955
Author: BLACKKOBOLD2
Date: on 04/28/2016 03:39 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


facepalm::

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1960
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 04/28/2016 07:46 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


I'm also curious...do you guys really think 415 double casting vs. one target is overpowered for 20 mana? The damage is random according to you (concussion damage at least), so that's not reliable.


For 20 mana and 100 ranks of fire lore (for 100%, because we need reliability) we get this. This is all vs. the same radical:

You gesture at a triton radical. The dull golden nimbus surrounding a triton radical suddenly begins to glow brightly. CS: +530 - TD: +451 + CvA: +25 + d100: +43 == +147 Warding failed! You blast a triton radical for 25 points of damage. ... 25 points of damage! Right hand fried to a crisp. Think barbecue sauce. The triton radical is knocked over by the blast!

A vortex of elemental energy suddenly strikes a triton radical! CS: +530 - TD: +451 + CvA: +25 + d100: +79 == +183 Warding failed! You blast a triton radical for 42 points of damage. ... 50 points of damage! Skin and some muscle burnt off chest. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.



And for 4 mana and 20 ranks of fire lore, we get this:


You hurl a seething blast of steam at a triton radical! AS: +491 vs DS: +278 with AvD: +44 + d100 roll: +38 = +295 ... and hit for 150 points of damage! Superheated steam boils internal organs! The triton radical's heart is boiled.. not broken. The triton radical gurgles once and goes still, a wrathful look on his face. The dully illuminated mantle protecting a triton radical begins to falter, then completely fades away. A white glow rushes away from a triton radical. The dull golden nimbus fades from around a triton radical. The brilliant aura fades away from a triton radical. The very powerful look leaves a triton radical. The white light leaves a triton radical. The warm glow fades from around a triton radical. A triton radical seems slightly different. Fiery elemental energy energizes you. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.


Note the crappy d100 roll on that 903 shot also.

415 double cast damage vs. single target isn't overpowered. Sure sometimes the damage is higher than that, but sometimes it's lower too. Because it's random. Either way, it's not OP, and nothing like level is going to be getting one shotted with it without it being a crit death.

I realize that new stuff is in development and it won't be nerfed until then, and I'm hoping that when this new stuff comes out I won't even care about 415, but I laso don't hold my breath in regards to any wizard dev anymore, and instead I just assume the worst, since doing anything else has led to nothing but being let down. Even moreso after being told that you guys still think Immolate is fine, combined with the method of testing you used for it vs. 317/1115 (non optimal CS, not factoring 240, seeming to think that 516 = 240, etc.)

But that aside, what exactly is the problem with 415 double casts vs. single target? I want to know why you think it's overpowered. And if you don't think it's OP, then the whole "It wasn't intended to double cast vs. single target" thing kind of goes out the window. Even if that was the case (which I still have a hard time believing, but whatever), this unintended feature needs to stay if you expect the spell to be used and trained in fire lore for. 415 is the only real reason to train heavily in fire lore right now, as Immolate is trash and nobody in their right mind is gonna train heavy fire lore for that. And you're not going to find wizards training heavy fire lore just to hit a second target with 415 either. And other than 908 splash, there is literally no other benefit to heavy fire lore training that I'm aware of, unless you count the small DF increase for 906/908. Which again, nobody is going to go heavy on lore for.

So again, the only reason to go heavy fire lore right now is for single target 415 double casts. If this is going to be nerfed, then the lore requirement for the non-single target double cast needs to at least be cut in half. Wizards are being required to train in too much lore for too little benefit otherwise. Please stop exacerbating that problem with nonsense like 415 nerfs.

Here's what I'm really interested in though: If you were a wizard (I'm just assuming you don't play or haven't played one to any real degree at cap in the live game based on the seeming inability to truly understand our concerns, correct me if I'm wrong. I don't mean that as an insult either. *glances at Aulis* It would be like if I were doing dev for Paladins or something.) what would your training look like, assuming you wanted maximum combat effectiveness, and why would you use said training path in the current state of the game?

And why is it that if other pures want to bolt, they could train for it and hunt exclusively with bolts if that's what they wanted, and they would still be effective hunters (not as effective as their go to warding spells, but still effective, and without massive lore requirements either), but if wizards want to primarily be warders, you guys keep throwing up roadblocks on top of the huge lore requirements that are already in place?

If 415 single target double casts went away tomorrow, I would probably drop fire lore down from my current 101 ranks (other 101 is air, don't get me started on that) to 20 or whatever is required for Steam Bolt, because that's all it would really be good for.

Again, I know 415 isn't slated to get nerfed until the new spells are out, but since we can't even waterboard any info on the new spells out of you guys, I can only base things on what's already in place, and unfortunately, the "Trust me" approach in regards to wizard dev holds no weight with (most of) us anymore.

I am glad that the test server is going to be opened though. Do you have any info on when that will happen? Because there's a good bit of testing I wouldn't mind being able to do right now.

And lastly, what's wrong with the idea of un-nerfing 519 and moving it to 525 or 530? I made a post last week as to why this wouldn't be OP, as it would be on part with 1030. Unless you think 1030 is OP too. Do you?

~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs: http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1961
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/28/2016 07:49 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>And lastly, what's wrong with the idea of un-nerfing 519 and moving it to 525 or 530? I made a post last week as to why this wouldn't be OP, as it would be on part with 1030. Unless you think 1030 is OP too. Do you?

You should stop there already because they already said yes to the latter.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1965
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 04/28/2016 08:04 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>You should stop there already because they already said yes to the latter.

This ridiculousness never ceases to amaze me. Stop taking peoples' options away (future tense included) and then wondering why people are quitting and/or not having fun anymore.

Or just let everyone convert to sorcerers.

Can we maybe just get a list of what spells Simu doesn't think are overpowered?

I can't help but wonder if DW realizes that making a game worse over time is the opposite of good game design.


~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs: http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1966
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/28/2016 08:34 AM PDT
Subject: 515 refresh on cooldown also costs a 5 mana penalty


I had 17 mana at the time I cast the refresh and blew my nerves as it went to -3, so casting 515 on cooldown also seems to cost a 5 mana penalty even though the penalty should only be applied to spells cast after it is actually re-activated.

>You feel the surge of magic depart. As the surge of magic departs, you feel a slight elemental fatigue settle in.

>inc 515 You recite a series of mystical phrases while raising your hands, invoking Rapid Fire... Your spell is ready. You gesture. You feel the magic surge through you, but the feeling of fatigue lingers. You have overextended yourself! You feel yourself going into shock! Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1968
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 04/28/2016 09:20 AM PDT
Subject: Re: 515 refresh on cooldown also costs a 5 mana penalty


This issue should be fixed. Sorry about that.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1969
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/28/2016 09:30 AM PDT
Subject: Re: 515 refresh on cooldown also costs a 5 mana penalty


>This issue should be fixed. Sorry about that.

Thank you for the prompt fix!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1970
Author: HJELTE
Date: on 04/28/2016 06:59 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


This is disheartening regarding 415... I feel like we were able to gloss over the incredibly high lore scaling requirements for 519 because we all found 415 to be a viable replacement in it's current form. If 415 is in fact not functioning as anticipated, I think we're back to having a gap requiring remediation.


~Whirlin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1971
Author: BLACKKOBOLD2
Date: on 04/28/2016 07:22 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Whirlin! Talk to me, man. What's going on around here? I require your perspective.

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1972
Author: HJELTE
Date: on 04/29/2016 07:34 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Alright... loaded question on perspective.

I sat down and did lots of maths, and feel like I 'solved' the current position of the ELR... The results are as follows, with a compressed justification explanation (full explanation is over on PC under my wizard guide thread, and I've mirrored the changes to wiki version of the guide)

Air Lore: 55 or 60 ranks. Due to the way rounding with haste works, 55 ranks gives you -1 RT on every RT that started with an even number if you're over 60 MjE ranks. Other major break points are much more sporadic and specific to things like: base RTs divisible by 5 all get -1 RT at 105 ranks. 60 ranks just gives additional fringe benefits on 504/511/912.

Earth Lore: 25 or 30 Ranks... just enough to unlock the litany of defensive procs. Beyond that, the seeds are so high, it's not worth continuing.

The rest, fire lore... Just to hit the 100 ranks for 415's double cast proc... and to have one large lore for 502 implications. The scaling on immolation's fire lore benefit is so high, it's simply not worth training for immolation.

However, if 415 is indeed broken, I guess it's just the Devs saying that wizards shouldn't have a competitive CS attack alternative.


That being said, the changes haven't been as bad as initial thought... I needed to dump a bunch of spell ranks to hit 66 ranks of air lore to use the new 506. Solving for 535's major breakpoints makes things easier as well. With 515's no longer auto-prepping your spells, you can do spell rotations to benefit from 502, then apply drench, then apply shock, rinse, rotate, or apply acid/immolate if you have the lores for it. However, that really doesn't help in the scatter against liches and such, just makes it a little more dynamic for lower tier hunting... Personally, as an archer mage, I feel like I'm ripping things to shreds with 902's +10 enhancive bonus and 909's stomp... 909/912/410 may not be as good as 709, but, at least we have options?

Wizards at the moment really need a way to be able to effectively kill something that we have a limited AS/DS margin on... If we only have +50 AS over the target's DS... we will simply run out of mana before the target is dead... Whereas if you take a pure CS caster... a 101 endroll with a CS spell can still be incredibly deadly! Squares/semis aren't restricted by mana per attacking the same way wizards are. CS used to fill this void for us... but with the lore requirements on 519 and the announcement regarding 415, it seems like we don't have anything to deal with these situations... Damn sorcs and their 720 iwin button.

-Whirlin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1973
Author: BLACKKOBOLD2
Date: on 04/29/2016 08:03 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Well, it certainly sounds like the warmage has become far more dynamic. That's good. But it sounds like the ELR is forcing wizards to go for the lower level lore benefits because they don't scale well with continued training. Perhaps if we had more attractive options for heavy investment in a single lore, we might start to see a distinctive pure build emerge?

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1975
Author: HJELTE
Date: on 04/29/2016 08:30 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Really just a symptom of SEED scales where it becomes more advantageous to pick up lower values in multiple than invest heavily into one. 502 incentivizes single-lore training, and even in my mathed out training plan, you're still a full 1x in just fire lore, it's your 2x ranks that are a little variable. Having returns too much higher than 100 ranks would really pigeonholes training too much when we have 4 options available. Most other classes are working between two lore options (I don't really count summoning for clerics as being competitive with their religion/blessing allocation after getting the few ranks needed for chrisms)

If we could 3x lores, and had some high training options available to us, that could satisfy the post-cap training weakness of bolts perhaps... but Simu has already stated a billion times that they're never changing something like that... predominantly due to changing training options like that causing a database update to all characters, current and previous... ... That batch job would likely take the game down for a little bit!

~Whirlin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1976
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 04/29/2016 08:34 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


> Wizards at the moment really need a way to be able to effectively kill something that we have a limited AS/DS margin on...

This should be pretty decently handled by one of the coming updates...

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1977
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 04/29/2016 08:38 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Whirlin
Really just a symptom of SEED scales where it becomes more advantageous to pick up lower values in multiple than invest heavily into one. 502 incentivizes single-lore training, and even in my mathed out training plan, you're still a full 1x in just fire lore, it's your 2x ranks that are a little variable. Having returns too much higher than 100 ranks would really pigeonholes training too much when we have 4 options available.

Ideally, our goal is to promote both diverse and specialized lore training. As you note, a summation model tends to heavily favor being more diverse, and a good majority of spells use that. We definitely need to add more incentive for specialized training (not to the extent of EL:F with the old version of 519 though). I will note that when players complain about not being able to train in all the lores they want, it's an affirmation for the design goal of making each lore competitive. It should be a difficult training choice and you should not be able to train in everything you want.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1978
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/29/2016 08:52 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>I will note that when players complain about not being able to train in all the lores they want, it's an affirmation for the design goal of making each lore competitive.

There's a vast difference between forced mediocrity and competitiveness. Right now wizards are forced to make the least harmful choices to their character's builds instead of choosing to train in any specific lore because there are valuable strengths.

This is a world of difference from the SLR, where each of religion, summoning, and blessings lore provide very tangible offensive benefits.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1979
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 04/29/2016 09:16 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>However, if 415 is indeed broken, I guess it's just the Devs saying that wizards shouldn't have a competitive CS attack alternative.

I wish they would just come out and say it if that's the case. Saying "Wizards are bolters first" means nothing. Clerics/empaths/sorcerers are warders first but they can bolt hunt with plenty of effectiveness. Can the same be said for wizards with CS spells, not including 415's so-called "bug" (which I still don't believe)? The fact that wizards shouldn't be forced into a 415 build to have a good warding spell shouldn't be necessary in the first place, but we take what we can get since our other options have been ripped from us.

>Well, it certainly sounds like the warmage has become far more dynamic. That's good. But it sounds like the ELR is forcing wizards to go for the lower level lore benefits because they don't scale well with continued training. Perhaps if we had more attractive options for heavy investment in a single lore, we might start to see a distinctive pure build emerge?

If I remember right, Estild did say he wouldn't be opposed to some sort of "reward" for going 202 in a single lore or something to that extent. This was either during the ELR last summer, or after the nerfs wrecked us in January, I can't remember which. Either way, nothing has been mentioned about it since then.

Perhaps Estild will pop in and give us some sort of update on if this is being considered or not.

I wish they would just come out and tell us what the new spells are that are being worked on. We accept the fact that Konacon or whoever could get hit by a bus tomorrow and all that progress will be washed away.

~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs: http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1980
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 04/29/2016 09:19 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>This should be pretty decently handled by one of the coming updates...

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Ug1oANFRDec/hqdefault.jpg

~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs: http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1981
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 04/29/2016 09:21 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>Ideally, our goal is to promote both diverse and specialized lore training. As you note, a summation model tends to heavily favor being more diverse, and a good majority of spells use that. We definitely need to add more incentive for specialized training (not to the extent of EL:F with the old version of 519 though). I will note that when players complain about not being able to train in all the lores they want, it's an affirmation for the design goal of making each lore competitive. It should be a difficult training choice and you should not be able to train in everything you want.

What are the chances that air lore could be made less mandatory? Because any post cap wizard with a clue is going to be trained heavily in air lore for Haste, because the haste nerf pretty much made this required training just to be almost as good at dealing with RT issues as we could pre-nerf.

When you have 4 lores and one of them HAS to be trained if you don't want to gimp yourself, that's not promoting much diversity.

~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs: http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1982
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 04/29/2016 09:26 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


> I wish they would just come out and tell us what the new spells are that are being worked on. We accept the fact that Konacon or whoever could get hit by a bus tomorrow and all that progress will be washed away.

This isn't the case for the stuff I've worked on. My spells are all in a place that you would still get them (And I really hope enjoy them even if I wasn't around to see it). Without question.

The reason I'm not talking about my favorite update, even though it's in a place where I -could- safely talk about knowing that it's a guarantee that you'll see it, is that it's a lot more effective than it sounds when simply explained.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1983
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 04/29/2016 09:33 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


DESTINY14
There's a vast difference between forced mediocrity and competitiveness. Right now wizards are forced to make the least harmful choices to their character's builds instead of choosing to train in any specific lore because there are valuable strengths.
This is a world of difference from the SLR, where each of religion, summoning, and blessings lore provide very tangible offensive benefits.
Methais
What are the chances that air lore could be made less mandatory? Because any post cap wizard with a clue is going to be trained heavily in air lore for Haste, because the haste nerf pretty much made this required training just to be almost as good at dealing with RT issues as we could pre-nerf.
When you have 4 lores and one of them HAS to be trained if you don't want to gimp yourself, that's not promoting much diversity.

I don't which of you to believe...

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1984
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/29/2016 09:47 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>I don't which of you to believe...

I don't see that they're incompatible. Haste provides utility/defensive benefits, NOT offensive. We only have 1 offensive lore (fire), with earth being roughly equivalent to blessings lore in terms of additional flares for defenses, but both summoning and religion lore heavily enhance offensive spells for spiritual pures.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1985
Author: PC1234
Date: on 04/29/2016 09:53 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


I don't which of you to believe...
GameMaster Estild

Prior to the ELR and after the ELR I have Air Lore only. It's not a hard choice for me. I don't feel like I'm giving up anything because the other options offer me nothing at this moment.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1986
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 04/29/2016 09:58 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


DESTINY14
I don't see that they're incompatible. Haste provides utility/defensive benefits, NOT offensive. We only have 1 offensive lore (fire), with earth being roughly equivalent to blessings lore in terms of additional flares for defenses, but both summoning and religion lore heavily enhance offensive spells for spiritual pures.

Elemental Lore, Air increases the offensive benefits for Chromatic Circle (502), Slow (504), Hand of Tonis (505), Celerity (506), Rapid Fire (515), Cone of Elements (518), Minor Shock (901), Major Shock (910), Call Wind (912), and Sandstorm (914). There's a reason it's one of the highest lores also trained by warmages (it's not due to it's utility or defensive benefits).

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1987
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 04/29/2016 10:00 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


PC1234
Prior to the ELR and after the ELR I have Air Lore only. It's not a hard choice for me. I don't feel like I'm giving up anything because the other options offer me nothing at this moment.

So you would agree there is no "forced mediocrity" since you're not required to train in 4 different lores?

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1988
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/29/2016 10:07 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>Elemental Lore, Air increases the offensive benefits for Chromatic Circle (502), Slow (504), Hand of Tonis (505), Celerity (506), Rapid Fire (515), Cone of Elements (518), Minor Shock (901), Major Shock (910), Call Wind (912), and Sandstorm (914). There's a reason it's one of the highest lores also trained by warmages (it's not due to it's utility or defensive benefits).

I classify disablers as utility, not offensive. I only consider bolt and pure warding attack spells that deal damage as offensive. 502 is the weakest of the bunch, for which the air lore is not really necessary. Hand of Tonis has among the worst crit table of the bolts. Celerity is utility. Rapid Fire air lore proc is essentially meaningless. Cone of Elements does not require air lore, and there are better options. Minor Shock and Major shock both cannot be used in many capped hunting grounds. Call Wind is unreliable and Sandstorm is useless.

It's trained by warmages precisely due to its UTILITY benefits for Celerity and/or Haste, but there's no reason for most pure wizards to go that route.

>So you would agree there is no "forced mediocrity" since you're not required to train in 4 different lores?

Forced mediocrity means that no matter how much you train in any lore or what split you choose, you are still mediocre. There's no option to be powerful due to one type or combination like clerics enjoy with a religion/blessings lore split.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1989
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 04/29/2016 10:27 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


DESTINY14
I classify disablers as utility, not offensive. I only consider bolt and pure warding attack spells that deal damage as offensive. 502 is the weakest of the bunch, for which the air lore is not really necessary. Hand of Tonis has among the worst crit table of the bolts. Celerity is utility. Rapid Fire air lore proc is essentially meaningless. Cone of Elements does not require air lore, and there are better options. Minor Shock and Major shock both cannot be used in many capped hunting grounds. Call Wind is unreliable and Sandstorm is useless.
It's trained by warmages precisely due to its UTILITY benefits for Celerity and/or Haste, but there's no reason for most pure wizards to go that route.

Disablers are offensive spells. You can't cast them in a sanctuary. Whether you use all the spells I listed, or none of them, it doesn't change the fact that Elemental Lore, Air provides an offensive perk for said spells. EL:A impact on 506 is offensive in nature. Attacking faster is an offensive perk (and a significant one). EL:A's impact on 535 is utility and defensive. It allows you to perform non-offensive actions faster (such as foraging, searching, etc) and helps you recover from attacks which induce RT. This very distinction is the reason we separated out the benefits for these two spells.

DESTINY14
Forced mediocrity means that no matter how much you train in any lore or what split you choose, you are still mediocre. There's no option to be powerful due to one type or combination like clerics enjoy with a religion/blessings lore split.

If a wizard is planning to hunt with offensive warding spells, Elemental Lore, Fire has a very significant impact, as illustrated by Methais. What huge offensive benefit do you think clerics get out of Spiritual Lore, Religion? For post-cap, their main attack spell, Divine Fury (317) hardly factors in SL:R at all, as noted before. 202 ranks of SL:R lowers the average casts-per-kill of 317 by .2 at the greatest level. By comparison, EL:F will lower Immolation's (519) average casts-per-kill by up to 1.5. For EL:F with 519, it's literally up to 7.5x more effective than SL:R for 317.

I promise, I am willing to be convinced there is a problem between high level warding spells. But I haven't seen anything that convinces me as such yet. If you want to make the case that 240 is better than 515, that's a different story and I plan to respond to that latter. But at their base level, all the attack warding spells are fairly competitive.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1990
Author: BLACKKOBOLD2
Date: on 04/29/2016 10:43 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Don't pat yourself on the back just yet, Estild. One is telling you they feel compelled to train heavily in air lore to recoup a fraction of the power they lost. The other is telling you they don't like any of the lores, but what else are you going to put points in as a post-cap wizard? I'd believe both of them if I were you.

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1991
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 04/29/2016 10:55 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Taverkin
Don't pat yourself on the back just yet, Estild. One is telling you they feel compelled to train heavily in air lore to recoup a fraction of the power they lost. The other is telling you they don't like any of the lores, but what else are you going to put points in as a post-cap wizard? I'd believe both of them if I were you.

So I'm supposed to believe Elemental Lore, Air is worth training in (to "to recoup a fraction of the power they lost" or for any reason), but none of the Elemental lores are worth training in. Got it.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1992
Author: HJELTE
Date: on 04/29/2016 10:58 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>This should be pretty decently handled by one of the coming updates...

If this is the case, two simple requests: Don't touch 415 til the fun stuff gets released... sweep back after it all! And more fixskills when the dust settles!

I don't really understand where we are on the wizard project anymore... I wasn't anticipating 512 getting touched, and was unaware that we were still things coming.


~Whirlin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1993
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 04/29/2016 11:00 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Whirlin
If this is the case, two simple requests: Don't touch 415 til the fun stuff gets released... sweep back after it all! And more fixskills when the dust settles!
I don't really understand where we are on the wizard project anymore... I wasn't anticipating 512 getting touched, and was unaware that we were still things coming.

We won't be correcting Elemental Strike's (415) lore benefit until at least 4 other wizard spell updates have been implemented.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1994
Author: PC1234
Date: on 04/29/2016 11:01 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


So you would agree there is no "forced mediocrity" since you're not required to train in 4 different lores?
GameMaster Estild

I would agree that if I had to play a "pure bolting" wizard I wouldn't be playing a wizard.

Bolting to me is beyond boring, it's like swinging a dagger at something wearing full plate. I don't play any characters that use OHE/OHB weapons because it's slow, and boring.


My original plan was to cap and start working toward an immolation build, but now that the path for that has been destroyed, I don't know where I'm heading. I will most likely go 101/101/101 spell ranks, and 100 EL:A/EL:F because that seems to be the best combination for defensive utility and offensive power.


I do see what the others are saying in terms of being "mediocre" because of lore choices. We don't have the opportunity to be great at anything.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1995
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 04/29/2016 11:08 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Each of the lores is worth training up to a small degree (25-35 ranks or so), air a bit more than the others. None of them are very compelling to train in heavily in my book. Assuming 925 is still slated to benefit from water lore I'll eventually put the rest of my lore points there because... over 2x post cap and why not? But it's not like it's a hard decision or I feel I am losing anything for that choice given I don't even bother to 2x my lore training now.

From your posts I think you have a similar assessment so hopefully there's something to look forward to down the road that makes higher end elemental lore training a harder decision between all of the lores.

-- Robert

"I never knew there were so many ginger-haired step-wizards in the lands." -- Anonymous

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1996
Author: HJELTE
Date: on 04/29/2016 11:13 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>Four to come

I believe the only one that we're aware of are the pending changes to 925? Or have other spells been identified previously?

~Whirlin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1997
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 04/29/2016 11:16 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


925 and 950 for sure.

-- Robert

"I never knew there were so many ginger-haired step-wizards in the lands." -- Anonymous

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1998
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 04/29/2016 11:16 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


> I believe the only one that we're aware of are the pending changes to 925? Or have other spells been identified previously?

At least two of those spells haven't been identified previously (That I'm aware of) except for maybe a sly hint here and there.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 1999
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 04/29/2016 11:20 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Whirlin
I believe the only one that we're aware of are the pending changes to 925? Or have other spells been identified previously?

Those 4 don't actually include the updates to 925, which will be out soon though.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2000
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 04/29/2016 11:21 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


The other two would be: 1) Something that will allow us to effectively kill something that we have a limited AS/DS margin on. 2) Something defensive that we will really like (per the poster).

-- Robert

"I never knew there were so many ginger-haired step-wizards in the lands." -- Anonymous

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2001
Author: PC1234
Date: on 04/29/2016 11:23 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


I promise, I am willing to be convinced there is a problem between high level warding spells. But I haven't seen anything that convinces me as such yet. If you want to make the case that 240 is better than 515, that's a different story and I plan to respond to that latter. But at their base level, all the attack warding spells are fairly competitive.
GameMaster Estild

I believe I can make a case for this if you are willing to give us accurate data.

I want to see the Cleric/Empath/Wizard spreadsheet that you provided previously, but I want the characters to be trained the way actual players train.

That means 169 profession/67 major/67 minor for Empaths and Clerics. For Wizards I believe it's 161 MjE/75 MnE/67 Wizard. Do like you previously did with 0x lore, 1x lore, 2x lore. But the d100 should be the same for all casts. You didn't specify if you use the same d100 roll or not for all casts.

Then, after showing us this data, show us data that includes 240 for Empaths and Clerics for comparison.

I think there is a reason you didn't show us this data, and I believe that reason is because it proves just how much better it is for the spiritual classes. Please prove this to be wrong if that's not the case.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2003
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 04/29/2016 11:26 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


> 1) Something that will allow us to effectively kill something that we have a limited AS/DS margin on.

Check.

> 2) Something defensive that we will really like (per the poster).

I'm with Estild on what he said about this. I fully expect that there is SOMEBODY that won't like it, but I would be pretty astonished if this wasn't received well by the majority. I'm gonna say Check.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2004
Author: PC1234
Date: on 04/29/2016 11:28 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


> I believe the only one that we're aware of are the pending changes to 925? Or have other spells been identified previously?
At least two of those spells haven't been identified previously (That I'm aware of) except for maybe a sly hint here and there.
~ Konacon

I'm guessing the spell you're excited to showcase is 917, revamped.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2005
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 04/29/2016 11:34 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


> I'm guessing the spell you're excited to showcase is 917, revamped.

If I was Methais, I would have some kind of image to respond to this with, but I don't.

If only he could jump in and help me out here...

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2006
Author: ALSTHAR
Date: on 04/29/2016 11:34 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


stop time we know is inbound boil has been explicitly stated to be in testing internally

"two level 50 spells" was a thing someone mentioned, not sure on the non-time stop spell from that. Leaves 1 other, I'll go with changing weapon fire to be unlockable to hit multiple targets at seed 20 of water lore. Thus all wizard problems solved.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2007
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 04/29/2016 11:39 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>I don't which of you to believe... -Estild

It seems that Destiny was speaking about offensive stuff, and I was speaking about defensive stuff.

In regards to defense, air lore is for all intents and purposes mandatory training for any wizard that prefers to stay alive at high level/post cap, which leaves a whole lot less room for all this diversity you were referring to. Nobody in their right mind is going to gimp themselves like that just so they can talk about how diverse their lore training is.

Regardless of what new stuff comes out, there's an extremely high chance I'm going to have to keep my air lore training for Haste, and I would imagine most if not all 2x lore builds are going to still have heavy air lore, literally just for Haste.


~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs: http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2008
Author: PC1234
Date: on 04/29/2016 11:44 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>I don't which of you to believe... -Estild
It seems that Destiny was speaking about offensive stuff, and I was speaking about defensive stuff.
In regards to defense, air lore is for all intents and purposes mandatory training for any wizard that prefers to stay alive at high level/post cap, which leaves a whole lot less room for all this diversity you were referring to. Nobody in their right mind is going to gimp themselves like that just so they can talk about how diverse their lore training is.
Regardless of what new stuff comes out, there's an extremely high chance I'm going to have to keep my air lore training for Haste, and I would imagine most if not all 2x lore builds are going to still have heavy air lore, literally just for Haste.
~ Methais

I'd like to see 535 Haste swapped around, instead of 60 MjE/101 EL:A being the cap, it should be vice versa, 101 MjE/60 EL:A for max reduction.

While on the topic of 535 Haste, the spell is still bugged and provides no message when cast sometimes.

J>inc 535 You recite a series of mystical phrases while raising your hands, invoking Haste... Your spell is ready. You gesture. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. J>535 [voodoo]>incant 535 You recite a series of mystical phrases while raising your hands, invoking Haste... Your spell is ready. You gesture. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. J>stop 535 With a moment's concentration, you terminate the Haste spell. You notice that things have returned to their normal speed. J>535 [voodoo]>incant 535 You recite a series of mystical phrases while raising your hands, invoking Haste... Your spell is ready. You gesture. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. J>535 [voodoo]>incant 535 You recite a series of mystical phrases while raising your hands, invoking Haste... Your spell is ready. You gesture. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. J>535 [voodoo]>incant 535 You recite a series of mystical phrases while raising your hands, invoking Haste... Your spell is ready. You gesture. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2009
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 04/29/2016 11:45 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>> If I was Methais, I would have some kind of image to respond to this with, but I don't.

I'm no Methais but I'll take a stab at it...

https://giphy.com/gifs/3o6ozqK0n0SPY1CiQ0

And here is that one guy from your post about something defensive.

https://giphy.com/gifs/3o6ozoya5Qkogu92CI

-- Robert

"I never knew there were so many ginger-haired step-wizards in the lands." -- Anonymous

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2010
Author: DOUG
Date: on 04/29/2016 11:46 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>> that there is SOMEBODY that won't like it

Hey!

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2011
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 04/29/2016 11:54 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Konacon
If I was Methais, I would have some kind of image to respond to this with, but I don't.
If only he could jump in and help me out here...

https://goo.gl/yRK5Ou

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2012
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/29/2016 11:56 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>If a wizard is planning to hunt with offensive warding spells, Elemental Lore, Fire has a very significant impact, as illustrated by Methais.

Except even with massive fire lore, 519 is still essentially useless in practice at cap even with two-open handed channeling. And it doesn't work at all on a large range of capped creatures. This is a very different story from 317. 240 makes a world of difference even if you don't think it does.

>What huge offensive benefit do you think clerics get out of Spiritual Lore, Religion? For post-cap, their main attack spell, Divine Fury (317) hardly factors in SL:R at all, as noted before.

Well, until you told us this, I has been thinking it did help, but it doesn't matter because 240 results in 1.0 casts-per-kill on a very reliable basis anyway.

>I promise, I am willing to be convinced there is a problem between high level warding spells. But I haven't seen anything that convinces me as such yet. If you want to make the case that 240 is better than 515, that's a different story and I plan to respond to that latter. But at their base level, all the attack warding spells are fairly competitive.

Please read my comments about 240 and 515 and bolting vs. warding spells in the "Estild" thread you had been posting in yesterday. I'm also interested in your thoughts on warding spells that bypass EBP completely vs. bolts. That's another reason bolts will unlikely achieve a 1.0 cast-per-kill level ever, even with an aimed bolt booster, since it involves luck instead of pure skill checks.

Finally, is there an option of the 525 booster proposal to allow 30 seconds of old style Immolation casts? It's useless for us to have a spell we aren't even allowed to cast without killing ourselves, others, or violating policy.

Thanks for your input on these discussions.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2013
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 04/29/2016 12:00 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


DESTINY14
Please read my comments about 240 and 515 and bolting vs. warding spells in the "Estild" thread you had been posting in yesterday. I'm also interested in your thoughts on warding spells that bypass EBP completely vs. bolts. That's another reason bolts will unlikely achieve a 1.0 cast-per-kill level ever, even with an aimed bolt booster, since it involves luck instead of pure skill checks.

I will. Trying to get caught up on it.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2014
Author: AMMINAR
Date: on 04/29/2016 12:01 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>I'd like to see 535 Haste swapped around, instead of 60 MjE/101 EL:A being the cap, it should be vice versa, 101 MjE/60 EL:A for max reduction.

Not sure where you're getting your info, but according to the wiki, these two training levels ARE equivalent for 535 Haste. 506 Celerity is the one with the 60 MjE cap (in the quickstrike stamina reduction formula). For haste, the MjE benefit is only supposed to be capped at level. (The extra 1 rank makes no difference for EL:A or MjE -- the benefit comes from multiples of 5 ranks, and rounds down.)

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2015
Author: HJELTE
Date: on 04/29/2016 12:01 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>If I was Methais, I would have some kind of image to respond to this with, but I don't. I>f only he could jump in and help me out here... >~ Konacon

http://imgur.com/gallery/gDZYtWQ

Am I doing it right?

~Whirlin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2016
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 04/29/2016 12:09 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


All of these pictures are win.

But cute cat pictures really get me.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2017
Author: DRUMPEL
Date: on 04/29/2016 12:15 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>If I remember right, Estild did say he wouldn't be opposed to some sort of "reward" for going 202 in a single lore or something to that extent. This was either during the ELR last summer, or after the nerfs wrecked us in January, I can't remember which. Either way, nothing has been mentioned about it since then.

Okay, it took me a while, but I tracked down Estild's comment. Under the "Developer's Corner - Wizards" topic, post # 2438.

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Wizards/Developer's%20Corner%20-%20Wizards/view/2438

-Drumpel

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2018
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 04/29/2016 12:20 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Drumpel
Okay, it took me a while, but I tracked down Estild's comment. Under the "Developer's Corner - Wizards" topic, post # 2438.

It's definitely still a goal of mine, just not high on the priority list.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2019
Author: BLACKKOBOLD2
Date: on 04/29/2016 12:21 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Clearly, you can believe whatever you wish to believe, Estild. But you and I both know that only the warmage was preserved and nothing has yet emerged from your grand design that could be termed a distinctive playstyle to replace the two that were lost. Wizards are generalists post-ELR, which I think even you observed as a point to improve upon. Once again, you speak the truth, but it doesn't reflect reality. Lores are "worth training in", but why are we setting the bar so low?

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2020
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 04/29/2016 12:22 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>But cute cat pictures really get me.


http://www.ctvnews.ca/polopoly_fs/1.2880507.1461941777!/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_620/image.jpg







(sorry)

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2021
Author: PC1234
Date: on 04/29/2016 12:32 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>I'd like to see 535 Haste swapped around, instead of 60 MjE/101 EL:A being the cap, it should be vice versa, 101 MjE/60 EL:A for max reduction.
Not sure where you're getting your info, but according to the wiki, these two training levels ARE equivalent for 535 Haste. 506 Celerity is the one with the 60 MjE cap (in the quickstrike stamina reduction formula). For haste, the MjE benefit is only supposed to be capped at level. (The extra 1 rank makes no difference for EL:A or MjE -- the benefit comes from multiples of 5 ranks, and rounds down.)

Oh yeah, got my spells mixed up. Thanks.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2022
Author: HJELTE
Date: on 04/29/2016 12:33 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>VANKRASN39's picture

And it just so happened that on the day that VANKRASN39 posted the awful picture to the forums, that coincidentally Konacon decided to return his attention to Sorcerers to better 'balance' the class.

~Whirlin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2023
Author: BLACKKOBOLD2
Date: on 04/29/2016 12:36 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


So, providing deep lore training benefits - the sort that might define distinctive playstyles - is not high on the priority list? Well, that explains why my subscription has remained canceled for eight months. I still don't understand why nerfing rapid fire/immolate was a high priority while this remains a low priority.

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2024
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 04/29/2016 12:54 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Taverkin
So, providing deep lore training benefits - the sort that might define distinctive playstyles - is not high on the priority list? Well, that explains why my subscription has remained canceled for eight months. I still don't understand why nerfing rapid fire/immolate was a high priority while this remains a low priority.

You're correct about the desired end goal, but the project of implementing a single high end ability for each lore is unlikely to create new playstyles. It would ideally be a useful tool, but it would not suddenly be some character build that replaces existing hunting tactics or spells. More so, the reason it has been a low priority because of the focus on the next 5 wizard spell updates.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2025
Author: PC1234
Date: on 04/29/2016 12:56 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Just a repost in case it got lost in the mass:

I promise, I am willing to be convinced there is a problem between high level warding spells. But I haven't seen anything that convinces me as such yet. If you want to make the case that 240 is better than 515, that's a different story and I plan to respond to that latter. But at their base level, all the attack warding spells are fairly competitive.
GameMaster Estild

I believe I can make a case for this if you are willing to give us accurate data.

I want to see the Cleric/Empath/Wizard spreadsheet that you provided previously, but I want the characters to be trained the way actual players train.

That means 169 profession/67 major/67 minor for Empaths and Clerics. For Wizards I believe it's 161 MjE/75 MnE/67 Wizard. Do like you previously did with 0x lore, 1x lore, 2x lore. But the d100 should be the same for all casts. You didn't specify if you use the same d100 roll or not for all casts.

Then, after showing us this data, show us data that includes 240 for Empaths and Clerics for comparison.

I think there is a reason you didn't show us this data, and I believe that reason is because it proves just how much better it is for the spiritual classes. Please prove this to be wrong if that's not the case.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2026
Author: BLACKKOBOLD2
Date: on 04/29/2016 01:09 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Who said anything about only a single high end ability for each lore? As I've said about a hundred times, there is no way that a single spell should define a playstyle. That would be no better than rapid shock or immo!

Take your time I guess. I've been gone 8 months. I can stand to take another several years off while you figure it out. Besides, I wouldn't want you to mess anything up with a rush job. Heavens no! Never that!

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2027
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 04/29/2016 01:23 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Taverkin
Who said anything about only a single high end ability for each lore?

I did.

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Wizards/Developer's%20Corner%20-%20Wizards/view/2438

"abilities" in that post references the fact there would be numerous abilities due to there being numerous lores, not that each lore would receive numerous unique, awe-inspiring abilities in the 150-200 range. And that project is a low priority due to working on other wizard updates. I'm sure we could stall said spell updates to implement a rank 150 Elemental Lore, Water ability though, if that would make you happy and resubscribe.

Taverkin
Take your time I guess. I've been gone 8 months. I can stand to take another several years off while you figure it out. Besides, I wouldn't want you to mess anything up with a rush job. Heavens no! Never that!

https://www.play.net/gs4/apply/gmapps/home.asp

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2028
Author: PC1234
Date: on 04/29/2016 01:39 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Wizards/Major%20Elemental%20Circle/view/2001

Is there a reason you don't want to show us this data?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2030
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 04/29/2016 01:45 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


PC1234
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Wizards/Major%20Elemental%20Circle/view/2001
Is there a reason you don't want to show us this data?

I will post it when I get time. I can more quickly respond to posts than to compile and make available such a report, so please be patient and stop repeatedly posting the same thing and/or trying to bait me into a response.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2031
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 04/29/2016 01:49 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>EL:A's impact on 535 is utility and defensive. It allows you to perform non-offensive actions faster (such as foraging, searching, etc) and helps you recover from attacks which induce RT. -Estild

You sure about that? Because 506 is doing that, not 535. Whether that's intended or not, who knows.

spell active

You currently have the following active spells: Elemental Defense I ................ 3:45:26 Elemental Defense II ............... 3:45:34 Elemental Defense III .............. 3:45:42 Elemental Targeting ................ 3:45:46 Elemental Barrier .................. 3:45:49 Thurfel's Ward ..................... 3:45:56 Elemental Deflection ............... 3:45:59 Elemental Bias ..................... 3:46:02 Strength ........................... 3:46:10 Elemental Focus .................... 3:46:58 Stone Skin ......................... 3:47:01 Haste .............................. 3:47:09 Temporal Reversion ................. 3:48:54 Natural Colors ..................... 0:00:10 Prismatic Guard .................... 3:48:57 Mass Blur .......................... 3:49:00 Melgorehn's Aura ................... 3:51:02 Call Familiar ...................... 1:42:05 Song of Luck ....................... 0:08:06 Kai's Triumph Song ................. 0:08:06

>Active spell list cleared.

>search You don't find anything of interest here. Roundtime: 3 sec.

>incant 506 You return to normal color.

You recite a series of mystical phrases while raising your hands, invoking Celerity... Your spell is ready. You gesture. You and your group suddenly start moving light-footedly. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

>search You don't find anything of interest here. Roundtime: 3 sec. Roundtime changed to 1 second.

You suddenly feel less light-footed. > Kave suddenly stops moving light-footedly. >kneel You kneel down. >forage leaf d100(Open): 78 As you carefully forage around you see no evidence of what you are looking for. You wonder if it could even be found in this terrain. Roundtime: 5 sec.

>incant 506 You recite a series of mystical phrases while raising your hands, invoking Celerity... Your spell is ready. You gesture. You suddenly start moving light-footedly. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

[ Celerity: +0:01:00, 0:01:00 remaining. ] forage leaf d100(Open): 75 As you carefully forage around you see no evidence of what you are looking for. You wonder if it could even be found in this terrain. Roundtime: 6 sec. Roundtime changed to 1 second.


>If a wizard is planning to hunt with offensive warding spells, Elemental Lore, Fire has a very significant impact, as illustrated by Methais.

Was this before or after you told us that 415 double cast vs. single target was a bug? Because nobody really cares very much about hitting 2 targets with it in comparison to double cast vs. one target. It's a cute novelty, but the single target double cast is much more in line with what wizards need than a double target cast.

That said, I do appreciate the fact that 415's "fix" is being delayed until these other spells go live. If nothing else, that's one thing I'm glad to see Simu has learned after the ELR disaster in regards to nerf now fix later.


>So I'm supposed to believe Elemental Lore, Air is worth training in (to "to recoup a fraction of the power they lost" or for any reason), but none of the Elemental lores are worth training in. Got it.

>"to recoup a fraction of the power they lost"

Are you suggesting that this isn't the case? If so, please explain why because I don't think anyone is going to understand otherwise.

I'm going to assume/hope you weren't speaking in a condescending tone, and instead is just a case of you just not understanding it from the perspective of people who actually play post cap wizards.

What we're saying is that at least as of right now, all this diversity you're talking about doesn't exist because almost everyone is going to go with fire/air because water and earth are still not worth investing TPs into over fire and air, except maybe for an earth/air war mage, which just reinforces the point that air lore is for the most part mandatory, be it for offense (war mage) or defense (everybody). 512 is ok (though the requirements and setup time is still too high, I mean if my math is right, it takes 200 ranks to have a 100% chance to shatter on a rank 5+ crit even, which would be acceptable if it was guaranteed to hit a vital area, but whatever), but we all know what happens when you base lore training about one spell, don't we? And nobody's really all that interested in strengthening lockpicks that we don't use because we're not lockpickers, and we're not interested in things like stone skin flaring for 15 damage after we get hit either. We're interested in things that address the underlying core issues we've had for a very long time, and nothing that's currently implemented does that. When I respecced to 101 fire/101 air, I didn't even have a second thought about it, because I'm not giving up anything meaningful by not training earth/water. In reality I probably could shave off some air lore ranks, but why bother? Even if I cut air lore in half, I still get nothing meaningful from earth lore, and water lore...I like the idea of 512, but it still requires too much setup time just to have a chance at taking half of their health. It has potential, but still needs work, as it's not worth sinking water lore into in its current state.

A large part of this is due to the fact that a lot of our core spells are trash. If Boil Earth, for example, was worth a crap and was attached to Earth Lore, I have little doubt that you'd see a lot more earth mages running around, which will hopefully be the case if whatever is in dev for Boil right now ends up being good.

And maybe I'm wrong here, but in my opinion it seems like you think everything is fine and that we should be rushing out to Stone Skin things to death and that nothing will ever be good enough for us because we just want to be overpowered death machines that can kill a whole town in one macro, when in reality we just want to be heard (as opposed to just listened to, thanks Wesley Snipes) for once and have our core issues addressed so that we don't have to work around it with band aids like rapid shock or 202 lore Immolate, since Simu is so hell bent on shoehorning wizards into being pure bolters.

You think 519 being weaker than 317/1115 is acceptable because we have mana leech. What good is mana leech when we're too dead to cast it or ended up having to leave the room because we can't kill things at the same pace as 317/1115? And this is before factoring in 240, in which cast 317/1115 become real death machines while we're still piddling away usually for around 100 damage for 19 mana a pop. Your spreadsheet "proof" that you posted the other day doesn't include several crucial factors, such as 240 or having max CS.

Back in vanilla WoW, when people started capping and getting gear, everyone's DPS was skyrocketing at a crazy pace. Except for mages. The reason for this was because at the time, the Intellect stat only increased our mana (and a miniscule amount of crit %) but not our damage. When we complained on the forums about it and how we were lagging tremendously behind other DPS classes in damage, we were told "This is acceptable because more mana = more damage" which still gets joked about to this day because it was such an incompetent and ignorant response from someone who worked for Blizzard (Tseric) where nearly everything is based around damage per second (DPS) and not longevity, i.e. casting 1 fireball for 1000 damage instead of casting 500 fireballs for 2 damage (random number exaggeration, you get the idea).

Needless to say, it wasn't long before Intellect became a damage stat as well as a mana stat. But the point I'm getting at is the "more mana = more damage" outlook seems to be similar to what you're telling us in regards to 516/519 compared to 240/317/1115, and I'm not sure how that claim could be more wrong in practice as opposed to on paper. I'm sure it sounds great on paper and all, but in practice, not at all. If a huge billion dollar company like Blizzard can get it wrong on the most popular MMO ever made, then it's hardly out of the question that a GM for a 30 year old text game can get it wrong too. Sure, the actual games are apples and oranges, but the concept I'm referring to is very apples to apples.

I genuinely mean this when I say I would love to see a full unedited log of you hunting a post cap wizard, preferably plane 4/scatter/confluence (in other words, not in OTF or Nelemar 3rd floor) using various post-nerf pure builds. I would be extremely curious to see how this goes. Then you can show us once and for all how great and wonderful all this ELR stuff is and that the nerfs weren't all that bad and we're all just overreacting and don't know how to play a wizard. Right? And for bonus points, tell us honestly how much fun you had with it.

I don't mean some automated test thing either. I mean you actually sitting at the keyboard with your macros and scripts and normal gear/training (no, you can't use a 50m xp wizard that has every skill in the game maxed) and all that, and showing us all how it's done.

>I would agree that if I had to play a "pure bolting" wizard I wouldn't be playing a wizard.

I second this. Bolts in their current state are very underwhelming and incredibly boring on the same scale that playing a non-ambushing sword & board square would be.

>I believe the only one that we're aware of are the pending changes to 925? Or have other spells been identified previously?

Konacon spilled the beans a few weeks ago that Boil Earth is being worked on also. Which I'm really looking forward to and am REALLY hoping it's not a letdown. I always thought this spell was really cool until I realized it's only good vs. players.


~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs: http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2032
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/29/2016 01:51 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>But I'm fearful - I'm fearful that despite our hypothesis that 240 enforces a 1:1 spell / kill ratio, we'll find the data asserts it is something less (say - just for the sake of argument - 1.5 to 1 spell / kill ratio).

It's not a hypothesis at all. I ran actual tests.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2033
Author: DOUG
Date: on 04/29/2016 01:52 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


I removed my post since Estild responded that it's WIP. Sort of makes my point irrelevant.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2034
Author: BLACKKOBOLD2
Date: on 04/29/2016 02:20 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


As always, I welcome positive change. When I see some I'll be sure to consider resubscribing.

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2035
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 04/29/2016 02:22 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Methais
You sure about that? Because 506 is doing that, not 535. Whether that's intended or not, who knows.

You are correct. 506 is for the offense and utility benefit and 535 is for the defense benefit.

Methais
Was this before or after you told us that 415 double cast vs. single target was a bug?

Before. There's always been a handful of wizards who would invest heavily (100+ ranks) into EL:F because they prefer the offensive benefits over any other.

Methais
Are you suggesting that this isn't the case? If so, please explain why because I don't think anyone is going to understand otherwise.

I'm not suggesting that wasn't the case at all. I know a lot of wizards train in Elemental Lore, Air for the Haste (535) benefits.

Methais
A large part of this is due to the fact that a lot of our core spells are trash. If Boil Earth, for example, was worth a crap and was attached to Earth Lore, I have little doubt that you'd see a lot more earth mages running around, which will hopefully be the case if whatever is in dev for Boil right now ends up being good.

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Wizards/Major%20Elemental%20Circle/view/1831 :P

Methais
And maybe I'm wrong here, but in my opinion it seems like you think everything is fine and that we should be rushing out to Stone Skin things to death and that nothing will ever be good enough for us because we just want to be overpowered death machines that can kill a whole town in one macro, when in reality we just want to be heard (as opposed to just listened to, thanks Wesley Snipes) for once and have our core issues addressed so that we don't have to work around it with band aids like rapid shock or 202 lore Immolate, since Simu is so hell bent on shoehorning wizards into being pure bolters.

Methais, I engaged in this discussion for a reason. I always read every post in the profession folders for all Pures and Semis, so even when I'm not responding, I'm still listening. I don't always agree with what's stated. As in the case of 519, I decided to respond to this thread to help illustrate my stance and to give players a chance to refute it based upon why I think 519 is currently acceptable.

Methais
You think 519 being weaker than 317/1115 is acceptable because we have mana leech. What good is mana leech when we're too dead to cast it or ended up having to leave the room because we can't kill things at the same pace as 317/1115? And this is before factoring in 240, in which cast 317/1115 become real death machines while we're still piddling away usually for around 100 damage for 19 mana a pop. Your spreadsheet "proof" that you posted the other day doesn't include several crucial factors, such as 240 or having max CS.

I don't think 519 is acceptable to be weaker due to 516 at all. I think 519 costly slightly more mana than 317 or 1115 is acceptable due to 516. Why would it not be? If a profession has more mana available, it stands to reason they can spend more mana. I don't object to making a case of 240 vs 516's mana benefits though.

Methais
Back in vanilla WoW, when people started capping and getting gear, everyone's DPS was skyrocketing at a crazy pace. Except for mages. The reason for this was because at the time, the Intellect stat only increased our mana (and a miniscule amount of crit %) but not our damage. When we complained on the forums about it and how we were lagging tremendously behind other DPS classes in damage, we were told "This is acceptable because more mana = more damage" which still gets joked about to this day because it was such an incompetent and ignorant response from someone who worked for Blizzard (Tseric) where nearly everything is based around damage per second (DPS) and not longevity, i.e. casting 1 fireball for 1000 damage instead of casting 500 fireballs for 2 damage (random number exaggeration, you get the idea).
Needless to say, it wasn't long before Intellect became a damage stat as well as a mana stat. But the point I'm getting at is the "more mana = more damage" outlook seems to be similar to what you're telling us in regards to 516/519 compared to 240/317/1115, and I'm not sure how that claim could be more wrong in practice as opposed to on paper. I'm sure it sounds great on paper and all, but in practice, not at all. If a huge billion dollar company like Blizzard can get it wrong on the most popular MMO ever made, then it's hardly out of the question that a GM for a 30 year old text game can get it wrong too. Sure, the actual games are apples and oranges, but the concept I'm referring to is very apples to apples.

If anything, WoW kind of illustrates my thoughts on 516/519. Mana only matters to healers in WoD (it's not a resource limiter for DPS anymore). But if you look at each healer's spells, you see they don't all cost the same amount of mana or even heal for the same amounts, and certain healers have abilities to refund or gain extra mana. What's important is the overall numbers. Specifically, if they can all heal for 100 HPS and maintain their their ability to cast spells throughout an encounter, it doesn't matter if shaman's healing spells cost 25% more mana since they have abilities like Resurgence (gain mana on crit) to gain back more of that difference.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2036
Author: PC1234
Date: on 04/29/2016 02:24 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


I will post it when I get time. I can more quickly respond to posts than to compile and make available such a report, so please be patient and stop repeatedly posting the same thing and/or trying to bait me into a response.
GameMaster Estild

I didn't expect the data immediately, but when you respond to everything but that one post, even if it was just a, I can do this later, it makes me wonder.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2037
Author: AMMINAR
Date: on 04/29/2016 02:53 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>It's not a hypothesis at all. I ran actual tests. >-DESTINY14

You keep saying this "guaranteed 1.0 casts per kill" business, but I don't see how it can possibly be true (for clerics at least).

For one thing, you're not guaranteed a spirit recast unless you have 210 ranks in SL:S. I doubt many clerics actually do this, because as you've said, SL:R is useful, too (though apparently not much in terms of lethality of 317, we're learning now). And I'm not sure even 210 ranks guarantees a spirit recast of 317, since higher level spells are supposed to decrease the recast likelihood (though I don't think the exact formula for this has ever been shared with us).

You also refer to the possible third spirit recast.. yet if this EVER happens, it means you're at something below 1.0 casts per kill (the "guaranteed" second cast should ALWAYS be enough at the 1.0 casts-per-kill level).

For a more realistic SL:S training level of 80ish ranks (which is closer to where most clerics actually are, I think), it's an 84% chance of spirit recast (not taking into account whatever the high-level-spell penalty is). So EVEN IF every high level creature could be killed by two normal casts of 317, that recast failure rate would make it 1.16 casts per kill.

What's more, not every creature can be killed that easily. Maybe if it crits or doesn't have much HP, you might get close. Otherwise, no way. +45 endroll is good, but not THAT good.

I'd be curious to see your tests, though.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2038
Author: PC1234
Date: on 04/29/2016 02:57 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Methais, I engaged in this discussion for a reason. I always read every post in the profession folders for all Pures and Semis, so even when I'm not responding, I'm still listening. I don't always agree with what's stated. As in the case of 519, I decided to respond to this thread to help illustrate my stance and to give players a chance to refute it based upon why I think 519 is currently acceptable.

I'm pretty confident that your stance will be refuted as soon as you give us that data. Just saying!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2039
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 04/29/2016 03:13 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


AMMINAR
You keep saying this "guaranteed 1.0 casts per kill" business, but I don't see how it can possibly be true (for clerics at least).
For one thing, you're not guaranteed a spirit recast unless you have 210 ranks in SL:S. I doubt many clerics actually do this, because as you've said, SL:R is useful, too (though apparently not much in terms of lethality of 317, we're learning now). And I'm not sure even 210 ranks guarantees a spirit recast of 317, since higher level spells are supposed to decrease the recast likelihood (though I don't think the exact formula for this has ever been shared with us).
You also refer to the possible third spirit recast.. yet if this EVER happens, it means you're at something below 1.0 casts per kill (the "guaranteed" second cast should ALWAYS be enough at the 1.0 casts-per-kill level).
For a more realistic SL:S training level of 80ish ranks (which is closer to where most clerics actually are, I think), it's an 84% chance of spirit recast (not taking into account whatever the high-level-spell penalty is). So EVEN IF every high level creature could be killed by two normal casts of 317, that recast failure rate would make it 1.16 casts per kill.
What's more, not every creature can be killed that easily. Maybe if it crits or doesn't have much HP, you might get close. Otherwise, no way. +45 endroll is good, but not THAT good.
I'd be curious to see your tests, though.

This is absolutely correct and what I had alluded to in another recent post. Thanks for pointing it out. It's hyperbole in an attemptto make a point and I would I would really prefer we avoid such things, as it's not a fact or true. However, as I did state in another post, 240 can potentially lower the casts-per-kill down to 1 with dedicated training, but it's not guaranteed. But we can discuss the average outcome, and doing so, I will accept that 240+317 will kill most targets in 3 seconds of castRT. I also accept that 515+519 will do the same.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2040
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/29/2016 03:22 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>But we can discuss the average outcome, and doing so, I will accept that 240+317 will kill most targets in 3 seconds of castRT.

True.

>I also accept that 515+519 will do the same.

Not remotely so. Are you sure you are talking about CASTS of 519 and not channeled tests, because in no instance of non-channeling did my 519 do much of anything at all, much less result in a kill on a reliable basis, never mind the mana differential.

When you can't be sure your 519 will work (and that you can actually ward the creatures), you definitely can't 516 them and you can't risk coughing either because if your 519 fails, you have no option to go back to using bolts. That's what I'm talking about regarding bolt vs. warding flexibility, in addition to the EBP issues and the safer stance that the other pures enjoy.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2041
Author: DOUG
Date: on 04/29/2016 03:34 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>>That's what I'm talking about regarding bolt vs. warding flexibility, in addition to the EBP issues and the safer stance that the other pures enjoy.

Is it a relatively fair restatement of this position to say that bolting will likely never be quite as effective as CS spell casting?

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2042
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 04/29/2016 06:11 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>If I was Methais, I would have some kind of image to respond to this with, but I don't.

>If only he could jump in and help me out here...

Sorry I'm late, I was blowing up the other folder.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/b6jy7aDPLeI/hqdefault.jpg

~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs: http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2043
Author: DOUG
Date: on 04/29/2016 06:14 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


You should have stayed late. . . Raw, instead of Delirious?

/shakes head

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2044
Author: RROY
Date: on 04/29/2016 06:15 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Come on Konacon! Spill some of it! The mage community could use a little morale boost. Just an elf about town...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2045
Author: RROY
Date: on 04/29/2016 06:20 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Gotta agree on the air Lore, as 502, 505, 518, are my main spells... Flavored with acid or a firebolt just to mix it up.

Just an elf about town...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2046
Author: RROY
Date: on 04/29/2016 06:28 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Ohh ohh Konacon dropping a hint about upgrading familiars?

Just an elf about town...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2047
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 04/29/2016 06:44 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>Who said anything about only a single high end ability for each lore? As I've said about a hundred times, there is no way that a single spell should define a playstyle. That would be no better than rapid shock or immo!

I think he meant it more like icing (really awesome icing, like cheesecake icing or something) on the cake.

Of course, this is assuming the builds are even worthy of being called cake. Or even pie.

>You are correct. 506 is for the offense and utility benefit and 535 is for the defense benefit.

What offense is involved in foraging?

>I don't think 519 is acceptable to be weaker due to 516 at all. I think 519 costly slightly more mana than 317 or 1115 is acceptable due to 516. Why would it not be? If a profession has more mana available, it stands to reason they can spend more mana. I don't object to making a case of 240 vs 516's mana benefits though.

Fair enough. I think for future discussion here regarding 317/1115, it should just be assumed that 240 is in effect. You know, since it has no cooldown and all <gives Rapid Fire a 3 Stooges style beating for having a stupid cooldown> and averages 317 to 22 mana per kill.

>If anything, WoW kind of illustrates my thoughts on 516/519. Mana only matters to healers in WoD (it's not a resource limiter for DPS anymore). But if you look at each healer's spells, you see they don't all cost the same amount of mana or even heal for the same amounts, and certain healers have abilities to refund or gain extra mana. What's important is the overall numbers. Specifically, if they can all heal for 100 HPS and maintain their their ability to cast spells throughout an encounter, it doesn't matter if shaman's healing spells cost 25% more mana since they have abilities like Resurgence (gain mana on crit) to gain back more of that difference.

>If anything, WoW kind of illustrates my thoughts on 516/519. Mana only matters to healers in WoD (it's not a resource limiter for DPS anymore). But if you look at each healer's spells, you see they don't all cost the same amount of mana or even heal for the same amounts, and certain healers have abilities to refund or gain extra mana. What's important is the overall numbers. Specifically, if they can all heal for 100 HPS and maintain their their ability to cast spells throughout an encounter, it doesn't matter if shaman's healing spells cost 25% more mana since they have abilities like Resurgence (gain mana on crit) to gain back more of that difference.

Right, but they also have the luxury of this all happening in long drawn out fight vs. a raid boss, as opposed to how hunting in GS works where you either kill things in a matter of seconds or you die, exacerbated by lack of an engagement system.

We don't have the luxury of time in our battles (don't confuse that to think I mean combat is too fast either), and wizards no longer have the fast killing power that we used to have to compensate for that.

And just to split hairs here on the 3x rapid 519 vs. 1x 240/317, technically 240/317 is killing stuff instantly, but has to wait out the 3 second cast time to do it again (you could also view this as instant cast with a 3 second global cooldown, which is in reality how spells in GS work, otherwise the 3 second cast time would apply before the spell is cast). 3x rapid 519 still takes 2 seconds to cast, and 1 second leftover to wait before we can cast again.

This might seem petty on paper, but I promise you wizards can, have, and will die during that extra time. I'm not going to claim that it's super common, but I'm not going to say it's super rare either.

If we can get hit during that 0.0000000001 seconds of being in offensive while stance dancing with bolts, which we all know we can and do, then every millisecond counts, which also tilts the scales, albeit slightly, even more in 240/317's favor.


~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs: http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2048
Author: GS4-FINROS
Date: on 04/29/2016 08:41 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>While on the topic of 535 Haste, the spell is still bugged and provides no message when cast sometimes.

I'm aware of this. The lack of messaging is a fairly minor manifestation of a bug that was recently introduced at a deeper level; I hope that the deeper bug will be fixed relatively soon, so I haven't restructured the spell to work around it (doing so wouldn't be a trivial change, unfortunately).

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2049
Author: BRANDTJRT
Date: on 04/29/2016 10:08 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


There is a lot of interesting thoughts on data on 519 here. I've a question for wizards as a whole for some clarity though, as mine is both casual and a warmage.

How well does Immolation work at the majority of levels, say, 20-90, in different people's experiences? It would help me with some perspective on all this, so I much appreciate it.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2050
Author: DOUG
Date: on 04/29/2016 10:27 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


It didn't come into its former glory until well post-cap. It required some pretty specific dedication.

In truth, the lower end of the spell probably hasn't changed much - the change drove down the ceiling. It wasn't really a stellar spell for most of the pre-cap range.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2051
Author: CANDIDE
Date: on 04/29/2016 10:59 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


"There is a lot of interesting thoughts on data on 519 here. I've a question for wizards as a whole for some clarity though, as mine is both casual and a warmage.

How well does Immolation work at the majority of levels, say, 20-90, in different people's experiences? It would help me with some perspective on all this, so I much appreciate it.-Branddtjrt"

I have a halfling wizard with a CS of 530 that I have never even bothered with the old 519 and for sure haven't bothered with the new 519. He just doesn't have the CS/mana to go around using this spell. He hunts the confluence pretty well on rapid fire 504/512/ bolts and really is probably going to stay in that area for the the next year or so.

I have taken a wizard with an insanely high enhanced CS (582) and produced 195+ average end rolls and gotten 145 damage averages against crit resistant creatures (war griffins). Tolerable as a last resort all in all and with the extreme specialization it still required a bunch of mana. I was always a proponent of the spell keeping more killing cycles than what it ended up with.

Now against creatures that have low health and little crit padding it will probably prove to be useful. Now fire mages just need other spells to make up the gap I guess. Which seem to be on the way and hopefully not RSN.

GBB

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2052
Author: RROY
Date: on 04/29/2016 11:53 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Probably never sees much use early on, that's a lot of mana to use... Definitely not fun if you don't make the warding.

Just an elf about town...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2053
Author: RROY
Date: on 04/29/2016 11:59 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Isn't a water mage the bottom of the ladder these days? I'll bet there's still ton Fire Lore mages with the new AS pushdown and 906 being ok for the low end?

Sactum of Scales going to shake training up a bit I'm betting...

Just an elf about town...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2054
Author: BLACKKOBOLD2
Date: on 04/30/2016 03:14 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)



Even if it were 1 cast per kill, for the majority of the leveling range 19 mana per cast is prohibitive and there are better options. Post-cap, where you can build your mana pool up to 400-500 mana, it becomes a feasible option. However, in its new weakened state, the spell requires about 40 mana per kill against targets with low health, no padding, and no immunity/resistance to fire. At 40 mana per kill it might be feasible for a post-cap wizard, but as it is probably less reliable and more expensive than bolting at this point, it's difficult to justify investing in heavy fire lore and boosting major CS to utilize this spell.

Compounding the issue is the decision to make 415 more powerful than 519. It was recently announced that this "feature" has graduated to a "bug" that will need to be fixed at some point. Unfortunately, this move will further expose the weakness of 519 as wizards will revert to having no CS-based spells worthy of training for. This could be compensated for by introducing a range of spells to support a true CS-based build for wizards, but we've had no indication that this is in the works.

It's okay, though. It's been 8 months since the ELR was announced and we still have no answer for these issues. Wait around a few years and that's sure to change!

~Taverkin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2055
Author: HJELTE
Date: on 04/30/2016 07:58 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>535 Bugs

Does that include it messing with things like Siegery minis that I posted on in the other thread? 'cause I can't wait til our next annual inter-CHE/MHO siegery competition if it's still broken... I'll DESTROY the competition.

And here's a kitty wizard for you.

http://i.imgur.com/Psn5IPU.gif


~Whirlin

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2056
Author: GS4-FINROS
Date: on 04/30/2016 09:28 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


>Does that include it messing with things like Siegery minis that I posted on in the other thread?

If there's a bug in the way that a spell interacts with an item, that is better classified as an item bug. If a BUGITEM has not yet been submitted on that, please do so. It'll then route to the person that owns that system.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2057
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 04/30/2016 10:00 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Immolation Replacement testing with Tremors 909 (STOMP version)

First off (and a minor point overall), the spell description on the wiki says it is an illusion but I was in fact arrested for casting it in town this morning. I seem to recall the sorcerer version (that has since moved to Arcane) was also an illusion and could be safely cast in town. So either the wiki is incorrect or the rules have changed around 'illusions'.

I tried introducing tremors as a potential opener / disabler and honestly found it increased risk more than decreased it overall. I was literally having critters stand back up immediately after Stomping (between the time I am hitting a function key to stomp and then hitting an adjacent function key to cast a spell) which means I could have cast something more effective up front to actually disabled the critter vs. wasting the (near 0) time to stomp.

True, the affected critters now have have a 7% EPB reduction (based on my current training), but this is just a nice to have for me and not what I am looking for in a disabler. It won't keep me from dying when the instant death spells are cast (e.g. sentries can cast their spells while laying on the ground).

I also tried adding STOMP into my base cast macro but then found I was stomping in a lot of situations where it didn't make any sense / wasn't useful and so was just burning the extra 3 mana over and over.

This spell also didn't seem to have any ability to knock down critters like sentries or defenders. Disclaimer: it may have an effect on these critters some of the time as I did limited testing here but it certainly isn't reliable at knocking them down.

I did find STOMP to be a cheaper way to knock over critters with a high DS that were already stunned (e.g. sirens) where I would otherwise use Call Wind but I think I will probably continue to prefer Call Wind due to the additional stance adjustment that comes with it in addition to the knockdown feature (plus there is actual RT involved with Call Wind so I can use it regardless of stun status of the critter with a reasonable expect that they will be prone, disabled, and easy to hit after my initial cast).

Tremors STOMP might be a bit more useful (and more fun) if it actually induced at least a short amount of RT. It is pretty anti-fun seeing something stand up immediately after you knock it down. Even with that add though, I think I would still find this spell lacking outside of the niche use I identified. It is something I will try using with with my warmage down the road if I ever get around to playing them again.

Next up: Open cast Slow/Call Wind combos (maybe tomorrow morning).

-- Robert

The town guard exclaims, "What do I look like, a scholar from Biblia?!"

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2058
Author: DESTINY14
Date: on 04/30/2016 10:24 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


I like Tremors stomp a lot, but it is not a disabler or a replacement for one. And sentries and defenders (and undead in general) don't knock down, which is why non-CS disablers aren't useful for them.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2059
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 04/30/2016 10:44 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


Just realized I posted in the wrong thread so I'll move my post over to the correct thread. And yeah, it's more of an offensive boost spell of sorts. I was trying it out based on Doug's(?) suggestion/question and it is pretty much like I remembered when it first came out.

-- Robert

The town guard exclaims, "What do I look like, a scholar from Biblia?!"

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2060
Author: AMCPENS
Date: on 05/04/2016 11:22 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


" We won't be correcting Elemental Strike's (415) lore benefit until at least 4 other wizard spell updates have been implemented.

GameMaster Estild"

Well, then here's to hoping only 3 new spell changes ever happen again. 415 is the last hope of many wizards, including me. Please, for the love of Pete Rose, do not nerf it.

-Rumbletum

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2061
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 05/04/2016 11:31 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


If at least one of those 4 spells is a suitable replacement, I'll be ok with it. I really hate having a MnE spell be my bread and butter as it is, but it's by far the best option right now.

~ Methais

Reading the wizard nerfs: http://i.imgur.com/hNaDm98.gif

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2062
Author: ZENDADA
Date: on 05/11/2016 03:05 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) and Air Attunement


Is it correct to say that the Air attuned mage using 502 Chromatic Circle makes the target vulnerable to vacuum flares, the only bolt spell that has vacuum flares is an Air attuned 518 Cone of Elements, and that that same vulnerability applies only to weapons with Air attuned 411 Elemental Blade which provides vacuum flares?

Chad, player of a few

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2063
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 05/11/2016 03:30 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) and Air Attunement


Chad, player of a few
Is it correct to say that the Air attuned mage using 502 Chromatic Circle makes the target vulnerable to vacuum flares, the only bolt spell that has vacuum flares is an Air attuned 518 Cone of Elements, and that that same vulnerability applies only to weapons with Air attuned 411 Elemental Blade which provides vacuum flares?

Air: Decreases DS against Minor Shock (901), Major Shock (910), Tonis Bolt (505), Major Air Bolt (518), and Elemental Blade Air weapons (411). Earth: Decreases DS against Minor Acid (904), Major Acid (1710), Hurl Boulder (510), and Elemental Blade Earth weapons (411). Fire: Decreases DS against Minor Fire (906), Major Fire (908), Minor Steam (1707), and Elemental Blade Fire weapons (411). Water: Decreases DS against Minor Shock (901), Minor Water (903), Minor Acid (904), Major Cold (907), Major Shock (910), Minor Steam (1707), Minor Cold (1709), Major Acid (1710), and Elemental Blade Water weapons (411). Lightning: Decreases DS against Minor Shock (901), Major Shock (910), and Elemental Blade Lightning weapons (411).

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2064
Author: ZENDADA
Date: on 05/11/2016 03:48 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) and Air Attunement


Air: Decreases DS against Minor Shock (901), Major Shock (910), Tonis Bolt (505), Major Air Bolt (518), and Elemental Blade Air weapons (411).
Earth: Decreases DS against Minor Acid (904), Major Acid (1710), Hurl Boulder (510), and Elemental Blade Earth weapons (411).
Fire: Decreases DS against Minor Fire (906), Major Fire (908), Minor Steam (1707), and Elemental Blade Fire weapons (411).
Water: Decreases DS against Minor Shock (901), Minor Water (903), Minor Acid (904), Minor Cold (907), Major Shock (910), Minor Steam (1707), Major Cold (1709), Major Acid (1710), and Elemental Blade Water weapons (411).
Lightning: Decreases DS against Minor Shock (901), Major Shock (910), and Elemental Blade Lightning weapons (411).
GameMaster Estild

Brilliant. Thank you!

Chad, player of a few

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2065
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 05/11/2016 03:52 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) and Air Attunement


I believe you swapped the #s for Major and Minor Cold.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2066
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 05/11/2016 04:32 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) and Air Attunement


VANKRASN39
I believe you swapped the #s for Major and Minor Cold.

Fixed! I also only listed 518 in the Air column, but it really applies to all of the elements too (since it basically just takes the single target version of each spell).

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2067
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 05/11/2016 06:01 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) and Air Attunement


>I also only listed 518 in the Air column, but it really applies to all of the elements too (since it basically just takes the single target version of each spell).

This is news as the Wiki and the release said it applied to single-target follow on bolts only.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2068
Author: RROY
Date: on 05/12/2016 06:44 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Chromatic Circle (502) and Air Attunement


Not sure exactly where I read it, probably in the after release questions, but have been using 502 in conjunction with 505 and 518 with Air Lore. Every lil' bit helps.

Just an elf about town...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2069
Author: DRUMPEL
Date: on 05/19/2016 12:00 PM PDT
Subject: 507 - bolt reflecting messaging


A fenghai points a furry finger at you! A fenghai hurls a stream of water at you! A shimmering field of energy flashes around you, reflecting the magic at XXXXXXXX! 

 AS: +77 vs DS: +186 with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +86 = +6
  A clean miss.
A fenghai hurls a stream of water at you! 
You move at the last moment to evade the bolt!

If my 507 spell reflected the bolt, why does the messaging show the creature hurls a stream of water at you! twice? Plus the added You move at the last moment to evade the bolt! , when I've already deflected it?

Is this how the messaging is supposed to look? It seems odd that the bolt was deflected, then it was cast at me again and I dodged it.

-Drumpel

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2071
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 05/20/2016 12:21 PM PDT
Subject: Charge Item should be on par with Scroll Infusion


This might not be the right folder for this, as I think the mechanics of Charge Item are for the most part fine, but is there any real reason anymore why Mage rechargeable items are still fairly rare, as opposed to just making all magic items rechargeable?

Between catastrophic failure, either via the item greening or exploding, combined with the item degradation that takes place anytime you recharge it, guarantees that MR items will never be permanent.

I see no reason why doing something like this would be considered OP, as scrolls are still better due to being able to hold multiple spells, as well as the RUMMAGE verb which makes item management much easier too. And especially because finding a scroll with a "rare" spell is way more common than finding a MR item with one.


~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2072
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 05/25/2016 09:30 AM PDT
Subject: Super Duper Miniscule Almost Microscopic Rapid Fire Request


I don't suppose Rapid Fire could be made to where casting 515 doesn't incur the 3 second cast RT, could it?

515 giving everything a 1 second cast RT except for 515 itself is ironic, and irony is for hipsters.

Do you want Gemstone to be overrun by hipsters? Because that's how you get overrun with hipsters.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2073
Author: MEKK1
Date: on 05/25/2016 05:32 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Super Duper Miniscule Almost Microscopic Rapid Fire Request


https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/19/22/19/1922193681b0b357f7cc9af8fddb449a.jpg

Character formerly known as Drauz

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2074
Author: AMCPENS
Date: on 05/26/2016 06:49 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Super Duper Miniscule Almost Microscopic Rapid Fire Request


"I don't suppose Rapid Fire could be made to where casting 515 doesn't incur the 3 second cast RT, could it?"

Yep, i pointed this out a few weeks ago when somone kept saying that you could 515 then 519 three times in 4 seconds. no, that's 7 seconds

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2075
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 05/26/2016 06:55 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Super Duper Miniscule Almost Microscopic Rapid Fire Request


AMCPENS
Yep, i pointed this out a few weeks ago when somone kept saying that you could 515 then 519 three times in 4 seconds. no, that's 7 seconds

And that's only true initial cast. For the remaining 57 seconds that the spell lasts, you can cast one spell per 1 second. This logic also ignores the fact that 240 also has the initial 3 seconds of castRT and must be recast twice as often.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2077
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 05/26/2016 07:05 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Super Duper Miniscule Almost Microscopic Rapid Fire Request


>This logic also ignores the fact that 240 also has the initial 3 seconds of castRT and must be recast twice as often.

This logic ignores the fact that 240 provides an extra to 2 boosted, free mana casts per single cast, except these 2-3 total casts occur simultaneously at time 0 upon casting.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2078
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 05/26/2016 07:06 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Super Duper Miniscule Almost Microscopic Rapid Fire Request


LADYFLEUR
This logic ignores the fact that 240 provides an extra to 2 boosted, free mana casts per single cast, except these 2-3 total casts occur simultaneously at time 0 upon casting.

This logic ignores the fact we were discussing the impact of the initial 3 seconds of castRT for said spells, not their overall benefits.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2079
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 05/26/2016 07:13 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Super Duper Miniscule Almost Microscopic Rapid Fire Request


>This logic ignores the fact we were discussing the impact of the initial 3 seconds of castRT for said spells, not their overall benefits.

No, it doesn't. Disregarding casting the spell twice, each individual cast (whether actually cast or free) under 240 takes about the same amount of time (1-1.5 seconds). I would actually say they're equal, given human reaction time and the fact that the 240 casts are simultaneous without extra input required.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2080
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 05/26/2016 07:15 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Super Duper Miniscule Almost Microscopic Rapid Fire Request


I wish you would stop bringing 240 into every 515 argument because they literally accomplish none of the same things. 0 CT 515 did, but not 1 CT 515, cooldown or not.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2081
Author: TGO02
Date: on 05/26/2016 07:52 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Super Duper Miniscule Almost Microscopic Rapid Fire Request


How about a compromise? The initial cast of 515 gives 2 seconds of castRT.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2082
Author: ALSTHAR
Date: on 05/26/2016 09:08 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Super Duper Miniscule Almost Microscopic Rapid Fire Request


>>This logic ignores the fact we were discussing the impact of the initial 3 seconds of castRT for said spells, not their overall benefits.>>

What's the cooldown on 240 again?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2083
Author: PFLATS
Date: on 05/26/2016 09:14 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Super Duper Miniscule Almost Microscopic Rapid Fire Request


Would be cool if self-cast Rapid Fire would extend its benefits magic item activation.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2084
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 05/27/2016 09:40 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Super Duper Miniscule Almost Microscopic Rapid Fire Request


>How about a compromise? The initial cast of 515 gives 2 seconds of castRT.

1.5 and not a millisecond higher!

Ok, I'll settle for 1.6.


~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2085
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 05/27/2016 09:41 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Super Duper Miniscule Almost Microscopic Rapid Fire Request


>And that's only true initial cast. For the remaining 57 seconds that the spell lasts, you can cast one spell per 1 second. This logic also ignores the fact that 240 also has the initial 3 seconds of castRT and must be recast twice as often.

But 515 has a cooldown. :(

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2086
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 05/27/2016 11:39 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Super Duper Miniscule Almost Microscopic Rapid Fire Request


>Would be cool if self-cast Rapid Fire would extend its benefits magic item activation.

Rapid Fire isn't self-cast, though it should be and have the cooldown removed entirely. But it isn't imbeddable either, the only spell in the game with this inconsistent design.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2087
Author: CANDIDE
Date: on 05/27/2016 12:53 PM PDT
Subject: 545 spell combo


Upon casting this spell the Wizard uses starts a series of pre-set spells to be cast one after the other in order 1 second apart.

Initially 3 spells can be cast in succession with this spell. To add a spell to the list of spells to be cast use Chant. To clear spells to be cast use Evoke.

example Chant 504 Chant 512 Chant 512 will cast 504 then 512 and 512 again. Evoking the spells clears the sequence.

Mana used to by the spells can not exceed 45. Elemental Mana Control seed 5 increases this total. If the total of the spells mana is greater than 45 then that much mana is used instead. Elemental Water Lore and Elemental Air Lore combined increases the number of spells that can be cast at a total of 50 100 150 and 200 ranks.

GBB

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2088
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 05/27/2016 01:25 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 545 spell combo


I wouldn't want this.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2089
Author: PFLATS
Date: on 05/27/2016 02:24 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Super Duper Miniscule Almost Microscopic Rapid Fire Request


Yes, I know.

Magic items still give 3 cast RT when you're running rapid fire. It'd be cool if they only gave 1 cast RT when rapid fire is self-cast.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2090
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 05/27/2016 05:46 PM PDT
Subject: 515 Rapid Fire - a wacky suggestion


While Rapid Fire is active, it will reduce the castRT of all subsequent spells to 1 second. Once the effect ends, there is a short recovery period of 90 seconds before the spell can be used again without an extra penalty. If the spell is recast during the recovery period, all subsequent spells cast cost +5 mana. Training in Elemental Mana Control reduces the cooldown by (0.3 * (skill - 100)) seconds. So at 202 skill, the duration is 60 seconds, and at 302 skill, the cooldown is 30 seconds. 

Extensive in EMC training will additionally allow for a limited number of quick recoveries per every 24 hours.  Use of the MANA RECOVER command will eliminate any remaining rapid fire cooldown.  This draws from the same pool as MANA SPELLUP and is subject to the same restrictions (so at most 8 times per 24 hours with 200 ranks of EMC training).

-- Robert

A powerful whirlpool is suddenly overtaken by a windy vortex!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2091
Author: DOUG
Date: on 05/27/2016 06:25 PM PDT
Subject: 515 Rapid Fire - Another Whacky Suggestion


Robert's post sent me off to the test server to check something.

Most interestingly, I've confirmed (although I don't know it was ever announced?) that if the spell is recast during the active cool down, the cool down period is erased. In other words, even if a young wizard with 50 ranks of EMC (meaning 75 second cool down) cast the spell again immediately and continued burning through mana, when the spell ends, the cool down period would be 75 seconds - not 75 seconds plus 74 seconds or 75 seconds plus 15 seconds. I appreciate that design.

It lends me to offer a suggestion.

The penalty of +5 mana per spell cast while under a forced rapid fire more than offsets the need to stack successive cool down periods. But you could give the post-cap wizard back a bit of punch if when the cool down period ended (say 30 seconds for 2x EMC trained wizards), the penalty also stopped - spells are cast at their normal cost.

30 seconds isn't that long to me, and I don't mind necessarily paying it - but for some hunting styles, it is 5 to 10% of the 'usual hunt time' allocated. Reducing the extra mana during after that cool down period would help bridge back some of the power lost, yet remain true to this design and intent.

More importantly - for those situations where the wizard is on cool down, and trying to ride it out, but gets to 10 seconds (or 5 seconds, or even 1 second), and casts the spell again to survive - that penalty then becomes burdensome.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2092
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 05/27/2016 08:40 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 515 Rapid Fire - Another Whacky Suggestion


I actually like Doug's suggestion quite a bit. I didn't realize the cooldown period continued to extend if you chose to spend +5 mana to cast a spell while the cooldown period is active. That seems like a double penalty to me.

-- Robert

A powerful whirlpool is suddenly overtaken by a windy vortex!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2093
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 05/28/2016 02:34 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 545 spell combo


Unless I'm missing something, you could accomplish the exact same thing just by writing a basic script to cast 515 and then your spell combo.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2094
Author: CANDIDE
Date: on 05/30/2016 12:17 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 545 spell combo


Missing the ability to do two sets of attacks at the same time?

GBB

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2095
Author: BRANDTJRT
Date: on 05/30/2016 04:43 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 545 spell combo


If there was some kind of combination spell, I think it would be neat if it hit the target with a specified element, then the opposite element. This would, in turn, cause some kind of cascading mana damage effect. So, three chances to asplode the target.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2096
Author: ZENDADA
Date: on 06/05/2016 08:38 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


Messing around on the test server today on Arudhal road and this happened...

You leap up and grab a handhold at the top of the rock, strain mightily to pull yourself up, but failing, fall unceremoniously to the ground in a heap. Roundtime changed to 14 seconds. Roundtime: 20 sec. Your skin hardens for a moment and softens the attack! 

  ... 5 points of damage!
  Blow to your back connects lightly.

I don't know if this is a new benefit, but it is a nice benefit all the same. I've always liked 520 and now even moreso with the lore benefits. Tease me all you want. :)

Chad, player of a few

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2097
Author: KITHUS
Date: on 06/05/2016 11:53 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


Looks like someone found the defensive spell upgrade dev was promising. Anyone try randomly casting 450, 550 or 950 recently on test?

Keith/Brinret/Shiun

Keith is correct

Wyrom, APM

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Help%20for%20Players/Policy%20Discussions/view/246

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2099
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 06/05/2016 12:11 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


That's not new and it's not 520. It's the 430 flare from the ELR, though you rarely see it because as a wizard you shouldn't get hit much.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2100
Author: ZENDADA
Date: on 06/06/2016 10:13 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


That's not new and it's not 520. It's the 430 flare from the ELR, though you rarely see it because as a wizard you shouldn't get hit much.
LADYFLEUR

The damage from the fall is impact. I know this because I have some impact resistant leg greaves that show a message every time the resistance kicks in.

Information on 430 from the wiki...

Elemental Barrier provides a barrier of elemental protection around the caster, increasing defensive strength (DS) against melee, ranged, and bolt attacks, and target defense (TD) against elemental spells.
The spell will protect the user from a maneuver if the maneuver is able to be defended against by a shield. For example, soul golems pushing a character into steam vents can be deflected by a shield, so this spell would give the user protection.

Information on 520 from the wiki...

Stone Skin manipulates the elemental forces within a wizard's body, forming a layer of hard stone that shifts with their movements. This self-cast spell provides additional protection from physical attacks in the form of hitpoint damage absorption.

So I'm thinking it is an effect from 520.

Chad, player of a few

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2101
Author: ZENDADA
Date: on 06/06/2016 10:25 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


Reading my post I don't remember why I included that info about impact damage. Reading the spell it really would not make a difference. Doing 10 things at once at work today. :)

Chad, player of a few

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2102
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 06/06/2016 12:43 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


Um, no, the messaging is exactly the 430 messaging from the wiki:

https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/430

Lore benefit: Your skin hardens for a moment and softens the attack!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2103
Author: ZENDADA
Date: on 06/06/2016 12:50 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


It appears you are correct. Thank you for setting me straight so delicately.

Chad, player of a few

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2104
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 06/06/2016 02:13 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


Now what did we learn here today?

Buff Stone Skin, that's what! :/

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2105
Author: ZENDADA
Date: on 06/06/2016 06:41 PM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


Now what did we learn here today?
~ Methais

I learned that the update to Elemental Lore is pretty awesome. You can buff 430 and 520 along with a bunch of other spells with EL:E.

That I do not know this game as well as others, that some gamers have few if any social skills, and that I could give flying duck about any of it are things that I already know. :)

Chad, player of a few

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2107
Author: BRANDTJRT
Date: on 06/07/2016 05:28 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


>>Buff Stone Skin, that's what! :/

Such an awesome spell idea, so underwhelming. With enough earth lore, I want to become stone. That would rock.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2108
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 06/07/2016 08:23 AM PDT
Subject: Re: HSN: ELR - Stone Skin (520) Updates Released!


>That I do not know this game as well as others, that some gamers have few if any social skills, and that I could give flying duck about any of it are things that I already know. :)

Uh...what?

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2109
Author: VLDDAIMPLR
Date: on 06/08/2016 08:33 AM PDT
Subject: Re: 515 Rapid Fire - a wacky suggestion


like the current implementation, this type of EMC calculation very severely reduces the usefulness of RF for lower leveled wizards.

EMC modifiers should (imo) be based on whether one is 1x/2x/3x etc, not based on hard training thresholds (100 skill, 200 skill, 300 skill, etc).

It would be extraordinarily difficult to be a younger wizard who is 3x EMC, so this type of solution is self-limiting and rather than REMOVING choices, simply makes one decide what is and isn't important for one's build.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2110
Author: VLDDAIMPLR
Date: on 06/08/2016 08:35 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Super Duper Miniscule Almost Microscopic Rapid Fire Request


I think I missed, in 240's description, where it says it reduces spell casting RTs.

Strange, I notice it when reading 515's description.

HMMMMM

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2111
Author: GS4-AULIS
Date: on 06/08/2016 12:54 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 515 Rapid Fire - a wacky suggestion


>>It would be extraordinarily difficult to be a younger wizard who is 3x EMC, so this type of solution is self-limiting and rather than REMOVING choices, simply makes one decide what is and isn't important for one's build.

Wizard can only 2x in Elemental Mana Control, however. The only skills they can 3x in is Harness Power and Spell Research.


~Aulis Forums Manager QC'er

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2112
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 06/08/2016 01:04 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 515 Rapid Fire - a wacky suggestion


This proposal is far too limited and doesn't solve the issues wizards face when using 515 as a bolting band-aid. 4 minutes less of cooldown per 24 hours isn't going to have any impact, and I would never use it instead of a mana spellup anyway if it were an option.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2113
Author: SJOSEPH
Date: on 06/17/2016 04:04 AM PDT
Subject: Cold snap still bugged/Drazaa stuck


I was hunting the Minotaur Labyrinth in the room where you fall in from the trapdoor, Drazaa fell through the door and I acidentally hit him with coldnap and now he/she is permanantly stuck in place as the spell won't wear off. The same thing happened a few weeks ago and we had to get a GM out to fix it. I don't know if it's an issue with the spell or the room as the problem occurred in exact same room as last time. I've bugged this in game and Drazaa has logged off until a Gm comes on but he/she is still stuck in the Labyrinth by the trap door.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2114
Author: DARALUNDY
Date: on 06/17/2016 09:44 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold snap still bugged/Drazaa stuck


There are three trap doors.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2115
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 06/17/2016 11:16 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Cold snap still bugged/Drazaa stuck


SJOSEPH
I was hunting the Minotaur Labyrinth in the room where you fall in from the trapdoor, Drazaa fell through the door and I acidentally hit him with coldnap and now he/she is permanantly stuck in place as the spell won't wear off. The same thing happened a few weeks ago and we had to get a GM out to fix it. I don't know if it's an issue with the spell or the room as the problem occurred in exact same room as last time. I've bugged this in game and Drazaa has logged off until a Gm comes on but he/she is still stuck in the Labyrinth by the trap door.

Do you have a log you can post or email directly to me? If Drazaa didn't already, they should they should REPORT to immediately get help (and this applies to any case when any player gets permanently stuck from any mechanic).

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2117
Author: GIANTSMASH
Date: on 07/05/2016 06:22 PM PDT
Subject: 502 + 411 + UAC


I'm not seeing any changes to the UDF when using 502 with 411 and UAC attacks. It looks like the UDF just stays the same or doesn't change at all. Here's a clip to demonstrate:

inc 502 You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Chromatic Circle... Your spell is ready. You channel at a wolverine. A wolverine is suddenly surrounded by a small whirlwind. 

 CS: +161 - TD: +81 + CvA: +25 + d100: +4 == +109
 Warding failed!

The whirlwind quickly swirls around the wolverine, causing 23 points of damage! 

  ... 25 points of damage!
  Back snaps as ribs and vertebrae separate!
  The whirlwind leaves the wolverine off balance and exposed to the elements.

Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. Roundtime: 3 sec. R> A wolverine tries to bite you! You evade the attack by inches! >punch wolv You attempt to punch a wolverine! You have decent positioning against a wolverine. 

 UAF: 207 vs UDF: 220 = 0.940 * MM: 94 + d100: 45 = 133
 ... and hit for 13 points of damage!
 Fast but ineffective punch to the side of the wolverine's neck.

The scintillating white light surrounding the gauntlets fades some. Your leather gauntlets fades some. Roundtime: 3 sec. R>punch wolv You attempt to punch a wolverine! You have decent positioning against a wolverine. 

 UAF: 207 vs UDF: 220 = 0.940 * MM: 91 + d100: 41 = 126
 ... and hit for 17 points of damage!
 Swift blow to gut causes the wolverine to gasp, and leaves behind a light bruise.

The scintillating white light surrounding the gauntlets fades some. Your leather gauntlets fades some. Roundtime: 3 sec. R>punch wolv You attempt to punch a wolverine! You have decent positioning against a wolverine. 

 UAF: 207 vs UDF: 217 = 0.953 * MM: 102 + d100: 99 = 196
 ... and hit for 51 points of damage!
 Quick strike to sternum makes the wolverine gasp for air.
 The wolverine is stunned!
 Strike leaves foe vulnerable to a followup grapple attack!

 Necrotic energy from your leather gauntlets overflows into you! 

  You feel energized!

The scintillating white light surrounding the gauntlets fades some. Your leather gauntlets fades some. Roundtime: 3 sec. R> 

A wolverine regains its balance.

R>punch wolv You attempt to punch a wolverine! You have decent positioning against a wolverine. 

 UAF: 212 vs UDF: 217 = 0.976 * MM: 104 + d100: 100 = 201
 ... and hit for 48 points of damage!
 Wild swing heavily impacts left forearm, fracturing the bone!

 As you hit, your gauntlets sucks away the air! 

  ... 20 points of damage!
  Spine cracks!

The wolverine falls back into a heap and dies. The scintillating white light surrounding the gauntlets fades some. Your leather gauntlets fades some. You feel the unnatural surge of necrotic power wane away. Roundtime: 3 sec.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2118
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 07/05/2016 08:41 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 502 + 411 + UAC


This should now be resolved. Thanks for reporting the issue.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2119
Author: JOEKUPS
Date: on 07/09/2016 07:41 AM PDT
Subject: A love letter to GameMaster Estild; Cone of Elsa and its unforseen frozen consequences.


You say, "We didnt even get to the beach yet." Tuilinneth gestures while calling upon the lesser spirits for aid... J>ponder Puckoznik growls ferociously at a water witch! You ponder. J>incan 512 You struggle to recall the correct way to prepare the Cold Snap spell, but manage to stammer out something passable... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a water witch. An airy mist rolls into the area, carrying a harsh chill with it. CS: +210 - TD: +15 + CvA: +20 + d100: +23 == +238 Warding failed! The mist builds upon the existing thick block of ice, expanding it to cover a water witch's entire body, trapping it in an icy tomb. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. A cobra just slithered in. Puckoznik leaps from hiding to attack! Puckoznik swings a well-balanced dagger at a water witch! AS: +92 vs DS: -39 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +75 = +231 ... and hits for 56 points of damage! Great shot penetrates thigh and shatters bone! The water witch is knocked to the ground! The water witch is stunned! Puckoznik swings a well-balanced dagger at a water witch! AS: +92 vs DS: -41 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +36 = +194 ... and hits for 54 points of damage! Wild downward slash severs the water witch's left foot! Bloody stump, anyone? The water witch screams evilly one last time and goes still. A water witch no longer seems distracted. Tuilinneth gestures at Puckoznik. Puckoznik suddenly looks more powerful. A cobra tries to bite you! AS: +68 vs DS: +320 with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +87 = -133 A clean miss. You notice Puckoznik slip into a hiding place. The cobra flickers its tongue about cautiously. The cobra discovers Puckoznik who was hiding! A cobra tries to bite Puckoznik! AS: +68 vs DS: +195 with AvD: +35 + d100 roll: +10 = -82 A clean miss. Puckoznik searches a water witch. A water witch turns to dust. Puckoznik put a well-balanced dagger in his leather harness. A sea nymph just arrived. Puckoznik picks up a beige clam shell. Puckoznik put a beige clam shell in his cloak. Puckoznik removes a well-balanced dagger from in his leather harness. Tuilinneth shakes her head at a cobra and clucks her tongue. A cobra slithers west. Tuilinneth gestures while summoning the spirits of nature to her aid... Puckoznik swings a well-balanced dagger at a sea nymph! AS: +92 vs DS: +10 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +44 = +151 ... and hits for 30 points of damage! Deft slash to the sea nymph's leg digs deep! The sea nymph is stunned! Puckoznik swings a well-balanced dagger at a sea nymph! AS: +92 vs DS: -10 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +90 = +217 ... and hits for 56 points of damage! Blow shatters knee and severs lower leg! A sea nymph screams and falls to the ground grasping her mangled right leg. The sea nymph screams one last time and dies. A cobra just slithered in. Tuilinneth gestures at a cobra. A cobra seems to be distracted by something. Puckoznik kicks some dirt on a dead sea nymph. A cobra slithers west. Puckoznik searches a sea nymph. A sea nymph decays into compost. A cobra just slithered in. Puckoznik giggles. Tuilinneth eyes a cobra up and down with a thoughtful expression on her face. A sticky puddle suddenly bulges upward and begins moving toward you! You realize it is a water witch. A water witch thrusts with a spear at you! You gracefully avoid the attack! A cobra tries to bite Puckoznik! Puckoznik dodges just in the nick of time! A cobra tries to bite Puckoznik! Puckoznik moves at the last moment to evade the attack! A cobra just slithered in. You hear very soft footsteps. A sea nymph draped in seaweed and a wet, clinging robe slithers up out of a crevice. The witch slithers forward! A water witch thrusts with a spear at you! AS: +94 vs DS: +320 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +83 = -117 A clean miss. You hear very soft footsteps. A sea nymph thrusts with a blue-tasseled white steel spear at Puckoznik! Amazingly, Puckoznik manages to parry the attack with his dagger! A cobra tries to bite Tuilinneth! AS: +68 vs DS: +216 with AvD: +33 + d100 roll: +83 = -32 A clean miss. A cobra tries to bite Tuilinneth! Tuilinneth evades the attack with ease! The dully illuminated mantle protecting you begins to falter, then completely fades away. A sea nymph just arrived. >incan 512 You struggle to recall the correct way to prepare the Cold Snap spell, but manage to stammer out something passable... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a sea nymph. An airy mist rolls into the area, carrying a harsh chill with it. CS: +210 - TD: +6 + CvA: +25 + d100: +22 == +251 Warding failed! The mist leaves a sea nymph's lower half encased in a thick block of ice. CS: +210 - TD: +6 + CvA: +25 + d100: +78 == +307 Warding failed! The mist leaves a sea nymph's lower half encased in a thick block of ice. CS: +210 - TD: +12 + CvA: +25 + d100: +86 == +309 Warding failed! The mist leaves a cobra's lower half encased in a thick block of ice. d100 == 1 FUMBLE! The mist leaves a thin layer of ice on a water witch's lower half, but it easily shakes it off. CS: +210 - TD: +12 + CvA: +25 + d100: +14 == +237 Warding failed! The mist leaves a cobra's lower half encased in a thick block of ice. CS: +210 - TD: +72 + CvA: +20 + d100: +68 == +226 Warding failed! The mist leaves Puckoznik's lower half encased in a thick block of ice. CS: +210 - TD: +72 + CvA: +13 + d100: +3 - -5 == +159 Warding failed! The mist leaves Tuilinneth's lower half encased in a thick block of ice. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. Puckoznik blinks. >incan 512 You struggle to recall the correct way to prepare the Cold Snap spell, but manage to stammer out something passable... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a sea nymph. An airy mist rolls into the area, carrying a harsh chill with it. CS: +210 - TD: +15 + CvA: +20 + d100: +40 == +255 Warding failed! The mist leaves a water witch's lower half encased in a thick block of ice. CS: +210 - TD: +6 + CvA: +25 + d100: +76 == +305 Warding failed! The mist builds upon the existing thick block of ice, expanding it to cover a sea nymph's entire body, trapping it in an icy tomb. CS: +210 - TD: +6 + CvA: +25 + d100: +30 == +259 Warding failed! The mist builds upon the existing thick block of ice, expanding it to cover a sea nymph's entire body, trapping it in an icy tomb. CS: +210 - TD: +12 + CvA: +25 + d100: +93 == +316 Warding failed! The mist builds upon the existing thick block of ice, expanding it to cover a cobra's entire body, trapping it in an icy tomb. CS: +210 - TD: +12 + CvA: +25 + d100: +30 == +253 Warding failed! The mist builds upon the existing thick block of ice, expanding it to cover a cobra's entire body, trapping it in an icy tomb. CS: +210 - TD: +72 + CvA: +20 + d100: +2 == +160 Warding failed! The mist builds upon the existing thick block of ice, expanding it to cover Puckoznik's entire body, trapping him in an icy tomb. CS: +210 - TD: +72 + CvA: +13 + d100: +75 - -5 == +231 Warding failed! The mist builds upon the existing thick block of ice, expanding it to cover Tuilinneth's entire body, trapping her in an icy tomb. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. A water witch thrusts with a spear at you! AS: +44 vs DS: +312 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +32 = -210 A clean miss.

[Vornavian Coast, Beach] A deep indentation in the sand marks the beach. Oddly, no water pools in the cone-shaped indentation. The shells of many sea creatures lie strewn about the rim of the pit. No seagulls or crows perch anywhere near the pit, or anywhere on this stretch of beach. You also see a sea nymph that appears to be frozen in place, a sea nymph that appears to be frozen in place, a cobra that appears to be frozen in place, a water witch, a cobra that appears to be frozen in place, a flowing white robe, a spear, a wooden shield, a flowing white robe, the Ordim disk and a sandy path leading northeast into the dunes. Also here: Mister Puckoznik, Tuilinneth

Worth mentioning that the PC's had no outward signs of being frozen, nothing listed when looking directly at them either.

Ordim, Tuilinneth and Puckoznik took a walk down the western road in Solhaven and had a nice conversation about the local hunting spots. Until Ordim decided to use the amazing new 512 spell to freeze a small swarm of critters. It looks like the ambushing Puckoznik and maybe a mis-type by Tuilinneth moving and returning to the room broke the group and well as you can see I froze them solid. This wouldnt be terrible if they werent frozen for 10+ minutes. Retser came to our aid though. We tried to STOP 512, we even tried to dispell it off them no luck.

A series of mews heralds the arrival of a mass of kittens. The kittens jump on top of each other, one after another, forming a humanoid shaped tower of kittens. The tower glows brightly, causing you to shield your eyes. When the bright light subsides, Retser remains.

Retser says, "Hi I'm here for the party."

Retser says, "Wait... wait..."

Retser says, "Are you saying."

Retser asks, "YOU ARE FROZEN?" Retser fidgets.

Retser says, "LEEEEETTT IT GOOOOOO LEEEEET IT GOOOOO."

now in the right folder!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2120
Author: JOEKUPS
Date: on 07/08/2016 07:57 PM PDT
Subject: A love letter to GameMaster Estild; Cone of Elsa and its unforseen frozen consequences.


You say, "We didnt even get to the beach yet." Tuilinneth gestures while calling upon the lesser spirits for aid... J>ponder Puckoznik growls ferociously at a water witch! You ponder. J>incan 512 You struggle to recall the correct way to prepare the Cold Snap spell, but manage to stammer out something passable... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a water witch. An airy mist rolls into the area, carrying a harsh chill with it. 

 CS: +210 - TD: +15 + CvA: +20 + d100: +23 == +238
 Warding failed!

The mist builds upon the existing thick block of ice, expanding it to cover a water witch's entire body, trapping it in an icy tomb. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. A cobra just slithered in. Puckoznik leaps from hiding to attack! Puckoznik swings a well-balanced dagger at a water witch! 

 AS: +92 vs DS: -39 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +75 = +231
  ... and hits for 56 points of damage!
  Great shot penetrates thigh and shatters bone!
  The water witch is knocked to the ground!
  The water witch is stunned!

Puckoznik swings a well-balanced dagger at a water witch! 

 AS: +92 vs DS: -41 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +36 = +194
  ... and hits for 54 points of damage!
  Wild downward slash severs the water witch's left foot!
  Bloody stump, anyone?

The water witch screams evilly one last time and goes still. A water witch no longer seems distracted. Tuilinneth gestures at Puckoznik. Puckoznik suddenly looks more powerful. A cobra tries to bite you! 

 AS: +68 vs DS: +320 with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +87 = -133
  A clean miss.

You notice Puckoznik slip into a hiding place. The cobra flickers its tongue about cautiously. The cobra discovers Puckoznik who was hiding! A cobra tries to bite Puckoznik! 

 AS: +68 vs DS: +195 with AvD: +35 + d100 roll: +10 = -82
  A clean miss.

Puckoznik searches a water witch. A water witch turns to dust. Puckoznik put a well-balanced dagger in his leather harness. A sea nymph just arrived. Puckoznik picks up a beige clam shell. Puckoznik put a beige clam shell in his cloak. Puckoznik removes a well-balanced dagger from in his leather harness. Tuilinneth shakes her head at a cobra and clucks her tongue. A cobra slithers west. Tuilinneth gestures while summoning the spirits of nature to her aid... Puckoznik swings a well-balanced dagger at a sea nymph! 

 AS: +92 vs DS: +10 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +44 = +151
  ... and hits for 30 points of damage!
  Deft slash to the sea nymph's leg digs deep!
  The sea nymph is stunned!

Puckoznik swings a well-balanced dagger at a sea nymph! 

 AS: +92 vs DS: -10 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +90 = +217
  ... and hits for 56 points of damage!
  Blow shatters knee and severs lower leg!

A sea nymph screams and falls to the ground grasping her mangled right leg. The sea nymph screams one last time and dies. A cobra just slithered in. Tuilinneth gestures at a cobra. A cobra seems to be distracted by something. Puckoznik kicks some dirt on a dead sea nymph. A cobra slithers west. Puckoznik searches a sea nymph. A sea nymph decays into compost. A cobra just slithered in. Puckoznik giggles. Tuilinneth eyes a cobra up and down with a thoughtful expression on her face. A sticky puddle suddenly bulges upward and begins moving toward you! You realize it is a water witch. A water witch thrusts with a spear at you! You gracefully avoid the attack! A cobra tries to bite Puckoznik! Puckoznik dodges just in the nick of time! A cobra tries to bite Puckoznik! Puckoznik moves at the last moment to evade the attack! A cobra just slithered in. You hear very soft footsteps. A sea nymph draped in seaweed and a wet, clinging robe slithers up out of a crevice. The witch slithers forward! A water witch thrusts with a spear at you! 

 AS: +94 vs DS: +320 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +83 = -117
  A clean miss.

You hear very soft footsteps. A sea nymph thrusts with a blue-tasseled white steel spear at Puckoznik! Amazingly, Puckoznik manages to parry the attack with his dagger! A cobra tries to bite Tuilinneth! 

 AS: +68 vs DS: +216 with AvD: +33 + d100 roll: +83 = -32
  A clean miss.

A cobra tries to bite Tuilinneth! Tuilinneth evades the attack with ease! The dully illuminated mantle protecting you begins to falter, then completely fades away. A sea nymph just arrived. >incan 512 You struggle to recall the correct way to prepare the Cold Snap spell, but manage to stammer out something passable... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a sea nymph. An airy mist rolls into the area, carrying a harsh chill with it. 

 CS: +210 - TD: +6 + CvA: +25 + d100: +22 == +251
 Warding failed!

The mist leaves a sea nymph's lower half encased in a thick block of ice. 

 CS: +210 - TD: +6 + CvA: +25 + d100: +78 == +307
 Warding failed!

The mist leaves a sea nymph's lower half encased in a thick block of ice. 

 CS: +210 - TD: +12 + CvA: +25 + d100: +86 == +309
 Warding failed!

The mist leaves a cobra's lower half encased in a thick block of ice. d100 == 1 FUMBLE! The mist leaves a thin layer of ice on a water witch's lower half, but it easily shakes it off. 

 CS: +210 - TD: +12 + CvA: +25 + d100: +14 == +237
 Warding failed!

The mist leaves a cobra's lower half encased in a thick block of ice. 

 CS: +210 - TD: +72 + CvA: +20 + d100: +68 == +226
 Warding failed!

The mist leaves Puckoznik's lower half encased in a thick block of ice. 

 CS: +210 - TD: +72 + CvA: +13 + d100: +3 - -5 == +159
 Warding failed!

The mist leaves Tuilinneth's lower half encased in a thick block of ice. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. Puckoznik blinks. >incan 512 You struggle to recall the correct way to prepare the Cold Snap spell, but manage to stammer out something passable... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a sea nymph. An airy mist rolls into the area, carrying a harsh chill with it. 

 CS: +210 - TD: +15 + CvA: +20 + d100: +40 == +255
 Warding failed!

The mist leaves a water witch's lower half encased in a thick block of ice. 

 CS: +210 - TD: +6 + CvA: +25 + d100: +76 == +305
 Warding failed!

The mist builds upon the existing thick block of ice, expanding it to cover a sea nymph's entire body, trapping it in an icy tomb. 

 CS: +210 - TD: +6 + CvA: +25 + d100: +30 == +259
 Warding failed!

The mist builds upon the existing thick block of ice, expanding it to cover a sea nymph's entire body, trapping it in an icy tomb. 

 CS: +210 - TD: +12 + CvA: +25 + d100: +93 == +316
 Warding failed!

The mist builds upon the existing thick block of ice, expanding it to cover a cobra's entire body, trapping it in an icy tomb. 

 CS: +210 - TD: +12 + CvA: +25 + d100: +30 == +253
 Warding failed!

The mist builds upon the existing thick block of ice, expanding it to cover a cobra's entire body, trapping it in an icy tomb. 

 CS: +210 - TD: +72 + CvA: +20 + d100: +2 == +160
 Warding failed!

The mist builds upon the existing thick block of ice, expanding it to cover Puckoznik's entire body, trapping him in an icy tomb. 

 CS: +210 - TD: +72 + CvA: +13 + d100: +75 - -5 == +231
 Warding failed!

The mist builds upon the existing thick block of ice, expanding it to cover Tuilinneth's entire body, trapping her in an icy tomb. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. A water witch thrusts with a spear at you! 

 AS: +44 vs DS: +312 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +32 = -210
  A clean miss.


Ordim, Tuilinneth and Puckoznik took a walk down the western road in Solhaven and had a nice conversation about the local hunting spots. Until Ordim decided to use the amazing new 512 spell to freeze a small swarm of critters. It looks like the ambushing Puckoznik and maybe a mis-type by Tuilinneth moving and returning to the room broke the group and well as you can see I froze them solid. This wouldnt be terrible if they werent frozen for 10+ minutes. Retser came to our aid though. We tried to STOP 512, we even tried to dispell it off them no luck.

A series of mews heralds the arrival of a mass of kittens. The kittens jump on top of each other, one after another, forming a humanoid shaped tower of kittens. The tower glows brightly, causing you to shield your eyes. When the bright light subsides, Retser remains.

Retser says, "Hi I'm here for the party."

Retser says, "Wait... wait..."

Retser says, "Are you saying."

Retser asks, "YOU ARE FROZEN?" Retser fidgets.

Retser says, "LEEEEETTT IT GOOOOOO LEEEEET IT GOOOOO."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2121
Author: JOEKUPS
Date: on 07/09/2016 05:13 AM PDT
Subject: Re: A love letter to GameMaster Estild; Cone of Elsa and its unforseen frozen consequences.


[Vornavian Coast, Beach] A deep indentation in the sand marks the beach. Oddly, no water pools in the cone-shaped indentation. The shells of many sea creatures lie strewn about the rim of the pit. No seagulls or crows perch anywhere near the pit, or anywhere on this stretch of beach. You also see a sea nymph that appears to be frozen in place, a sea nymph that appears to be frozen in place, a cobra that appears to be frozen in place, a water witch, a cobra that appears to be frozen in place, a flowing white robe, a spear, a wooden shield, a flowing white robe, the Ordim disk and a sandy path leading northeast into the dunes. Also here: Mister Puckoznik, Tuilinneth

Worth mentioning that the PC's had no outward signs of being frozen, nothing listed when looking directly at them either.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2122
Author: RATHBONER
Date: on 07/09/2016 05:41 AM PDT
Subject: Re: A love letter to GameMaster Estild; Cone of Elsa and its unforseen frozen consequences.


Should probably be moved to some other folder. Its a 500s or general issue not a 1700s issue.

...

Ambushing in a group remains tricky though its now feasible because there not a lot of logic to what drops you and what doesn't. You just have to learn which commands work in which circumstances (e.g. never use UNHIDE, sometimes you need to use GET weapon, and sometimes UNSHEATHE)

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2123
Author: JOEKUPS
Date: on 07/09/2016 07:37 AM PDT
Subject: Re: A love letter to GameMaster Estild; Cone of Elsa and its unforseen frozen consequences.


you are right, this is the wrong folder!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2124
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 07/09/2016 09:44 AM PDT
Subject: 507-Elemental Deflection not working as intended?


Captured from Konacon's post when the lore updates were announced:

>> At 15 ranks of Elemental Lore, Earth this spell unlocks the ability to reflect bolt attacks. The base chance is 5% + 1% for every 10 additional lore ranks (past 15). The reflected bolt will hit a random (group/player unfriendly) target in the room with a -20 AS applied to the reflected attack.

>> Some notes:

>> - The check for reflection happens before any AS/DS checks, so this effect happens whether or not the attack would have hit you. >> - The reflected bolt does not consider hidden/invisible targets. >> - The reflected bolt CAN hit the original attacker.

Log Example from 7/9/2016

> A triton dissembler points a single golden nail toward you! A triton dissembler hurls a radiant ball of energy at you! A shimmering field of energy flashes around you, reflecting the magic at a triton dissembler! 

 AS: +384 vs DS: +309 with AvD: +42 + d100 roll: +65 = +182
  ... and hits for 60 points of damage!
  Muscle blasted away from the triton dissembler's arm exposing scorched bone!
  The triton dissembler is stunned!

A triton dissembler hurls a radiant ball of energy at you! 

 AS: +394 vs DS: +598 with AvD: +42 + d100 roll: +28 = -134
  A clean miss.


Questions / feedback:

1) The Wiki, and your notes, state the reflected attack will be at a -20 AS but the observed result appears to be at a -10 AS from the original attack.

2) Is it intended for the attack to still resolve against the original target? I sort of think it is based on the use of the word 'reflected' vs' 'deflected' but just wanted to confirm.

3) The sequence the attacks are resolved in feels wrong... it should resolve on me (the intended target in this case) first and then reflect back onto the caster (the dissembler in this case). In this example above the Dissembler is stunned but then it appears that it is casting at me. There was only the one dissembler in the room but I actually had to do a LOOK just to confirm when I saw the messaging where I was being attacked by a dissembler (immediately after just seeing one stunned).

-- Robert aka Faulkil

A powerful whirlpool is suddenly overtaken by a windy vortex!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2125
Author: DRUMPEL
Date: on 07/12/2016 08:26 AM PDT
Subject: 514 - SLAP not working


I figure since most people don't even bother with Stone Fist, this might have gone unnoticed for a while. My wizard is trained well enough in EL:E to utilize SLAP/CLENCH/POUND on pretty much like level targets. 128 ranks EL:E.

I was tossing out spells I don't use frequently (915, 514, 914 and such) just because I like to use all my spells at some point in time every year. I was tormenting creatures and I couldn't get SLAP to work. I thought maybe it was the creature so I ran out to some much younger creatures to test it out and it still doesn't work.

>cast ogre
You gesture at a large ogre.
The ground beneath you rumbles, then erupts in a shower of rubble that coalesces in to a slender hand enscribed with runes in mid-air.
CS: +415 - TD: +45 + CvA: 0 + d100: +3 == +373
Warding failed!
A large ogre tries to avoid the stone hand, but it soon catches it with a loose grip that quickly tightens.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>slap ogre
You pull your hand back threateningly as if to slap a large ogre, anger twisting your face.
You gesture at a whiptail.
The ground beneath you rumbles, then erupts in a shower of rubble that coalesces in to a slender hand enscribed with runes in mid-air.
CS: +415 - TD: +12 + CvA: +25 + d100: +2 == +430
Warding failed!
A whiptail tries to avoid the stone hand, but it soon catches it with a loose grip that quickly tightens.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
A whiptail snaps at you with its pincer!
At the last moment, you parry the blow with your runestaff!
>slap whiptail
You pull your hand back threateningly as if to slap a whiptail, anger twisting your face.

WAVE, CLENCH and POUND all work. SLAP does not.

-Drumpel

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2126
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 07/13/2016 08:30 AM PDT
Subject: Re: A love letter to GameMaster Estild; Cone of Elsa and its unforseen frozen consequences.


JOEKUPS
Ordim, Tuilinneth and Puckoznik took a walk down the western road in Solhaven and had a nice conversation about the local hunting spots. Until Ordim decided to use the amazing new 512 spell to freeze a small swarm of critters. It looks like the ambushing Puckoznik and maybe a mis-type by Tuilinneth moving and returning to the room broke the group and well as you can see I froze them solid. This wouldnt be terrible if they werent frozen for 10+ minutes. Retser came to our aid though.
We tried to STOP 512, we even tried to dispell it off them no luck.

This should now be resolved.

JOEKUPS
[Vornavian Coast, Beach]
A deep indentation in the sand marks the beach. Oddly, no water pools in the cone-shaped indentation. The shells of many sea creatures lie strewn about the rim of the pit. No seagulls or crows perch anywhere near the pit, or anywhere on this stretch of beach. You also see a sea nymph that appears to be frozen in place, a sea nymph that appears to be frozen in place, a cobra that appears to be frozen in place, a water witch, a cobra that appears to be frozen in place, a flowing white robe, a spear, a wooden shield, a flowing white robe, the Ordim disk and a sandy path leading northeast into the dunes.
Also here: Mister Puckoznik, Tuilinneth
Worth mentioning that the PC's had no outward signs of being frozen, nothing listed when looking directly at them either.

This should also be resolved. Thanks for reporting the issues.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2127
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 07/13/2016 09:00 AM PDT
Subject: Re: 514 - SLAP not working


Drumpel
I figure since most people don't even bother with Stone Fist, this might have gone unnoticed for a while. My wizard is trained well enough in EL:E to utilize SLAP/CLENCH/POUND on pretty much like level targets. 128 ranks EL:E.
I was tossing out spells I don't use frequently (915, 514, 914 and such) just because I like to use all my spells at some point in time every year. I was tormenting creatures and I couldn't get SLAP to work. I thought maybe it was the creature so I ran out to some much younger creatures to test it out and it still doesn't work.
WAVE, CLENCH and POUND all work. SLAP does not.

SLAP should now be working again. Thanks for reporting the issue.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2128
Author: DOUG
Date: on 07/13/2016 09:56 AM PDT
Subject: Re: 514 - SLAP not working


>>SLAP should now be working again.

Thanks, Estild. Are we sending Contemplar back through re-training, yet? :)

Drumpel, something I noticed about your hypothesis - which seems good so far (1 data point) - is that if you have 50 to 75 EL:E ranks and attempt to CLENCH or POUND, you end up SLAPping. Similar to zero ranks targeting THROW. With 100 EL:E ranks, you can CLENCH (that's the data point), but POUND still will revert to SLAP.

I can 't swear to it, but it feels almost like there's a random result in there - I think I got POUND once, but don't have the logs to support the observation.

I am not sure if that's a result of the fix (only tested it just now).

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2129
Author: DRUMPEL
Date: on 07/13/2016 01:17 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 514 - SLAP not working


>SLAP should now be working again. Thanks for reporting the issue. >GameMaster Estild

Thanks for the fix.

>Drumpel, something I noticed about your hypothesis - which seems good so far (1 data point) - is that if you have 50 to 75 EL:E ranks and attempt to CLENCH or POUND, you end up SLAPping. Similar to zero ranks targeting THROW. With 100 EL:E ranks, you can CLENCH (that's the data point), but POUND still will revert to SLAP.

It was a long time ago when people researched into the spell when it released so I can only go from memory (I didn't save any posts).

I think it went: If you lack the proper skill (ranks in EL:E skill and your level vs the target/creature's level), if you try to do an action that you don't have the skill for (CLENCH or POUND) it defaults to SLAP.

We'll say my wizard is level 50. He has 40 ranks MjE Spells (not relevant to the outcome of using SLAP/CLENCH/POUND - he just clearly knows how to cast the spell) and 75 ranks EL:E. He's fighting a creature that's the same level as him, 50.

75 ranks EL:E puts him at 1.5x trained and going against a like level creature he'd be right at the threshold (going from memory) that would be required to use POUND (it may or may not work). If the skill check for POUND fails, then from what I remember, it would default to SLAP. Thus breaking the hold on the creature. CLENCH will always work since he's well over the 1x-1.25x trained in EL:E and he's against a like level creature or younger.

If my wizard only had 50 ranks EL:E that would be 1x trained and in theory, CLENCH should work without fail on a like level creature. POUND will not work and it would default to SLAP.

The main bonus to using POUND is the increased chance of a head/neck wounds and crits. You're supposedly more like to get a crit kill from using POUND over a crit using CLENCH. Sadly, the damage output is heavily based on the CS endroll. If you get a low endroll the damage you do sucks and doesn't merit the 22 mana (14 for initial cast and 8 for POUND) - you can do so much more damage with other spells using the 22 mana. I can pin something with 410 and cast 904 3x.

My wizard that's level 81, I can POUND any minotaur magi I come against. He's got 128 ranks EL:E and magi are level 78. My wizard is older than the magi and he's over 1.5x in EL:E, so POUND always works on creatures lower level than him. I don't hunt him very much and I don't frequent the rift to test...maybe the new hunting ground Treekin Warrior would be a good base for me to try using POUND.....

No one's really dug into the spell since it was realized to be too mana intensive to be a useful hunting spell. The spell is certainly neat, but it just lacks usefulness when out hunting. Perhaps things have been tweaked at some point???? which means testing should be done. Right now, I don't think I'd really worry about digging into the spell more until the new/updated spells are released. Perhaps Stone Fist will be one of them that's updated/replaced. If it's not touched, then a fun run on the test server would be ideal for learning more on the ins/outs of 514.

-Drumpel

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2130
Author: DRUMPEL
Date: on 08/22/2016 10:45 AM PDT
Subject: Stone Fist (514) suggestion (until spell gets a revamp...hopefully)


It doesn't sound like 514 is on the current list of spells getting updated, but perhaps in the future it'll get some love. I think the spell can be greatly improved upon, but right now it just sorely lacks real usefulness. Cold Snap came along and does what 514 does to one creature on the initial cast (holds the creature in place; thus reducing EBP, DS, AS and preventing manuevers) + it can hit up to 4 targets without any EL:W training whereas 514 is a single target spell.

For now, perhaps 514 can have a TD pushdown for every 2 ranks of EL:E (only applies to follow up commands on the Stonefist) and 1 mana reduction for every 50 ranks of all ranks of EL for every action after 514 is cast (SLAP can be reduced to 2 mana at most, CLENCH reduced to 3 mana minimum at most and POUND to 4 mana minimum at most).

I'm okay with the spell being a single target spell, but it's clearly too mana intensive to be a useful hunting spell. Plus the requirements for POUND/CLENCH/SLAP are too high - these should be toned down as well.

0 ranks EL:E you can WAVE/PUSH/THROW 20 ranks EL:E lets you SLAP 50 ranks EL:E lets you CLENCH 75 ranks EL:E lets you POUND 

(using made up numbers because I'm too lazy to figure it out exactly)

Wizard is level 70 and has a CS of 375. Knows 75 ranks EL:E and 30 ranks EL:A TD pushdown for any follow up use of Stonefist is 37 (rounded down from 37.5) 105 total EL ranks known, reduced mana costs by 2: SLAP reduced to 2 mana (cannot get lower than 2) CLENCH reduced to 4 mana POUND reduced to 6 mana

The creature is level 70 and has 325 TD

Initial cast catches the creature in the stone fist. The mage then follows up with CLENCH. The TD on the creature would be 288 and would only cost 4 mana, instead of 6.

Right now the spell is too mana intensive to be a useful attack spell. Even if you do use the spell on a like level creature, usually they have an unusually high elemental TD and trying to get SLAP/CLENCH/POUND off to be a useful damage aspect of the spell, you're limited to the damage output based on the CS endroll. Even a creature a few levels under my mage, if he doesn't get a decent 150+ endroll, the damage is very limited and not worth the 22 mana (initial cast + POUND), 20 mana (initial cast + CLENCH) or 18 mana (initial cast + SLAP). So much more damage can be done by a mix of other spells for the same mana costs or less. Stonefist is left on the wayside for a "neat party trick" at best.

I have other suggestions for how to tie other lores into this spell and other beneficial ideas, but something like that would require a re-write and best left for a "How to completely redo 514 ideas" thread.

-Drumpel

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2131
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 09/04/2016 03:43 PM PDT
Subject: Overtraining in MjE


There was a discussion around the CS add from over-training in MjE and whether is adds .75 or .8 CS per Rank over level (at least for the first 20 or so ranks over). I spent 5 minutes looking for the prior discussion and that was my limit on searching. So... here is a new post on the subject, I did test this as I have been training my MjE above 100 and it appears that each additional rank adds .75 CS to your MjE CS spells (e.g. Sleep).

MjE Ranks - CS - @ 0.75 - @ 0.80 100 535 101 536 102 537 537 537 103 537 537.75 537.8 104 538 538.5 538.6 105 539 539.25 539.4 106 540 540 540.2 107 540 540.75 541

One day I'll figure out how to put a table here. First column is my MjE Ranks. Second shows my CS when casting sleep. Third and fourth columns shows expected result ad .75 and .8 None of my other training changed during this, the only change has been my MjE ranks.

-- Robert

A powerful whirlpool is suddenly overtaken by a windy vortex!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2132
Author: DOUG
Date: on 09/04/2016 04:13 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Overtraining in MjE


A helping hand.

MjE Ranks Actual CS CS - @ 0.75 CS - @ 0.80
100 535
101 536
102 537 537 537
103 537 537.75 537.8
104 538 538.5 538.6
105 539 539.25 539.4
106 540 540 540.2
107 540 540.75 541

So it looks like .75 is the clear winner, no?

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2133
Author: AMMINAR
Date: on 09/04/2016 07:47 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Overtraining in MjE


There was a discussion around the CS add from over-training in MjE and whether is adds .75 or .8 CS per Rank over level (at least for the first 20 or so ranks over). I spent 5 minutes looking for the prior discussion and that was my limit on searching. So... here is a new post on the subject, I did test this as I have been training my MjE above 100 and it appears that each additional rank adds .75 CS to your MjE CS spells (e.g. Sleep).

I'm pretty sure the formula here is accurate: https://gswiki.play.net/Casting_strength

Your numbers are a little off because you started counting the 0.75 at rank 102 rather than 101. Also it uses rounding rather than floor. But you got the right answer re: .75 for ranks 1-20 over.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2134
Author: DRUMPEL
Date: on 09/06/2016 01:56 PM PDT
Subject: 514 (Stone Fist) - Success of POUND/CLENCH/SLAP


I hopped into the test server and threw around some 514 at some csetairi since they're like level of my wizard.

Based on my past experiences and remembering from years past testing, going against like level creatures, you need to have roughly the following skill ranks in EL:E: SLAP - .5x trained CLENCH - 1x-1.25x trained POUND - 1.6-1.75x trained

I am going to put this to the test on a like level creature (csetairi).

My wizard's normal training has him with 128 ranks EL:E, that's just almost 1.6x in EL:E. 10 attempts to POUND a csetairi, 8 were successful, 2 resulted in CLENCH.

These are the thresholds I will test. My wizard is level 81.

EL:E Ranks x trained for his level
0 0x
21 .25x
41 .50x
61 .75x
81 1.0x
102 1.25x
122 1.50x
142 1.75x
162 2x
0 ranks EL:E (0x)
5 SLAP attempted, 0 worked. End results always = THROW
1 CLENCH attempted, 0 worked. End results always = THROW
Without any EL:E you will have no chance to use anything but the basic commands; PUSH, WAVE and THROW
21 ranks EL:E (.25x)
11 SLAP attempted, 5 worked. 6 did not, resulted in THROW. Appears 50/50 chance to successfully SLAP at .25x
12 CLENCH attempted, 0 worked. 9 resulted in SLAP. 3 resulted in THROW. Appears 2/3 failed CLENCH results in a SLAP and 1/3 results in a THROW at .25x
41 ranks EL:E (.5x)
6 SLAP attempted, all worked. End results always = SLAP when .5x trained or higher
6 CLENCH attempted, 0 worked. 6 resulted in SLAP. Appears CLENCH always defaults to SLAP when only .5x in EL:E
6 POUND attempted, 0 worked. 6 resulted in SLAP. Appears POUND always defaults to SLAP when only .5x in EL:E
61 ranks EL:E (.75x)
11 CLENCH attempted, 0 worked. 11 resulted in SLAP. Appears CLENCH always defaults to SLAP SLAP when only .75x in EL:E
6 POUND attempted, 0 worked. 6 resulted in SLAP. Appears POUND always defaults to SLAP when only .75x in EL:E
81 ranks EL:E (1x)
6 CLENCH attempted, all worked. May need more attempts, but appears CLENCH should always work at 1x train EL:E
17 POUND attempted, 0 worked. 15 resulted in CLENCH. 2 resulted in SLAP. Appears 10-15% POUNDS default to SLAP & 85-90% default to CLENCH when 1x EL:E
102 ranks EL:E (1.25x)
20 POUND attempted, 0 worked. All resulted in CLENCH. Appears POUND needs more than 1.25x to be used, will always default to CLENCH
122 ranks EL:E (1.5x)
35 POUND attempted, 5 worked. 30 resulted in CLENCH. Appears POUND works around 15% of the time, otherwise defaults to CLENCH when at 1.5x EL:E
142 ranks EL:E (1.75x)
45 POUND attempted, 29 worked. 16 resulted in CLENCH. Appears POUND works around 66% of the time, otherwise defaults to CLENCH 33% of the time when 1.75x EL:E
162 ranks EL:E (2x)
30 POUND attempted, all worked. POUND will work 100% of the time when you're 2x in EL:E

It seems some of my past remembering is correct, while some of it is off. Here's what it appears you need to successfully use SLAP/CLENCH/POUND.

SLAP - .5x trained in EL:E CLENCH - 1x trained in EL:E POUND - 2x trained in EL:E 

NOTE

Clearly there are some varying levels of success to use SLAP/CLENCH/POUND, but the .5x/1x/2x appear they are necessary for 100% success from my testing. More testing would be needed to get exact percentages, but this should provide a good base for people to follow with how Stone Fist works.

Your level vs creature level doesn't appear to make any difference. As long as you have enough training in EL:E, you can utilize SLAP/CLENCH/POUND. If you attempt to use a verb and it defaults to the next lowest successful verb, you only spend mana that equals the verb attack that went off. Example. You're 1.75x in EL:E and you try to POUND, but the attack defaults to CLENCH; you will only expend 6 mana on the CLENCH and not the 8 mana that POUND requires.

-Drumpel

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2135
Author: FIREPHOENIX
Date: on 09/07/2016 07:34 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 514 (Stone Fist) - Success of POUND/CLENCH/SLAP


Can we save this post on the wiki, someone?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2136
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 09/07/2016 07:49 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 514 (Stone Fist) - Success of POUND/CLENCH/SLAP


I updated the chart on the Stone Fist page. link to post in the edit notes

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2137
Author: DOUG
Date: on 09/07/2016 09:39 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 514 (Stone Fist) - Success of POUND/CLENCH/SLAP


>>Can we save this post on the wiki, someone?

Done.

Ugh. Template coming! That was painful! V, how do you do this?!

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2138
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 09/07/2016 09:56 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 514 (Stone Fist) - Success of POUND/CLENCH/SLAP


>That was painful! V, how do you do this?!

When it comes to saved posts, I don't try too hard to maintain the original format (signatures are also nixed, they can really mess up a search). There's also a tool linked on my user page (link below) in the resources that turns text to wikitable, then I adjust for our formatting and replace the class=wikitable with border="2" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0" style="margin: 1em 1em 1em 1em; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaa solid; border-collapse: collapse; " and take out other non-applicable formatting.

http://thdoan.github.io/mr-data-converter/

For that big table I wouldn't have even bothered tabling it. I would have put : or :: before each line depending on the level and bolded the top line. Saves a whole lot of time.

your page is pretty :)

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2139
Author: DOUG
Date: on 09/07/2016 10:10 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 514 (Stone Fist) - Success of POUND/CLENCH/SLAP


>>your page is pretty :)

ROFL!

Ok, ok - thanks for the primer. I'll check it out.

HEADS UP - those members wishing their content be saved for posterity (and easy reference ;) please see V's post above on 'how-to'. I'll do a bit of research, and see if there's anything else I think might be able to help. But, as a general observation, I think these types of research posts should probably be initiated on the wiki by the researching author directly, to save style change parameters, etc. I'll do what I can to help out, but. . .

Plus, we can always use another hand or two in editing content on the wiki!

'

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2140
Author: DOUG
Date: on 09/07/2016 10:12 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 514 (Stone Fist) - Success of POUND/CLENCH/SLAP


Oh, and for reference:

https://gswiki.play.net/Stone_Fist_(514)_Player_Research_(saved_post)

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2141
Author: DRUMPEL
Date: on 09/07/2016 10:47 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 514 (Stone Fist) - Success of POUND/CLENCH/SLAP


Nice work importing it all to the gswiki.

On a side note, I found Stone Fist to be somewhat devastating against csetairi (if I could ward them with ease) and against the raving lunatics. Usually 2-3 CLENCHes would finish them off and 1 out of 5 initial uses of POUND or CLENCH would usually result in a crit death.

The spell certainly has power behind it - sadly, the mana cost is too high to be a staple hunting spell.

Initial cast = 14 mana CLENCH = 6 mana (usually 2-3 times) End cost = 20-32 mana on squishy targets

If you go with POUND Initial cast = 14 mana POUND = 8 mana (usually 2-3 times) End cost = 22-38 mana on squishy targets

Only real downside is if you're endroll is low (usually under 140 and the damage is kind of minimal, not much better then a decently placed bolt of 904 or 906). Also, the occasional fumble you can get when trying to utilize the verb commands just adds to the irritation of how much mana the spell costs.

Most encounters I use TAP (self cast 909) for 4 mana, then incant 502 (if target can be stunned - about half the time it results in a low level stun on the target) and then follow up with 1-4 casts of 904. This totals out to 10-22 mana a creature. As you see, Stone Fist becomes too mana intensive to be used as a viable hunting spell....especially if the target has ample elemental TD protection.

So, the spell is mostly for flair or perhaps would be a good spell to use in a group hunt from time to time. Hopefully mana adjustments can be addressed with the spell.

-Drumpel

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2142
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 09/09/2016 09:09 AM PDT
Subject: Time Stop (550)


Time Stop (550) has now been released and is a new capstone Major Elemental spell available to wizards. When activated, it will remove a base 60 seconds of roundtime from the caster and reduce the duration of negative effects by the same amount (e.g. stuns, Bind (214), etc). It can be activated while in roundtime and while under most status conditions (stunned, webbed, immobile, etc) with the STOP TIME command. Starting out, it may be used once per day and uses resets at midnight ET. Training in Elemental Lore, Earth unlocks an additional use per day at 40, 115, and 190 ranks. Training in Elemental Lore, Air increases the amount of roundtime that is removed and the amount of time that is removed from negative effects by (1.5 * seed 1 summation of their EL:A ranks) seconds (e.g. at 28 ranks, it removes an additional 10 seconds; at 55 ranks, it removes an additional 15 seconds, etc). At 50 ranks of Elemental Lore, Water, the spell will automatically release an Elemental Wave (410) in the room, with additional lore training past that making it more difficult to resist. At 50 ranks of Elemental Lore, Fire, the spell will automatically release a fire Elemental Wave (similar to 435 but without the roundtime) in the room, with additional lore training past that making it more difficult to resist. Having 50 ranks in both EL:W and EL:F causes it act exactly like a fire Major Elemental Wave (435). In either case (or when both effects are combined), the wave is significantly more difficult to resist than the base 410/435 spell alone.

Credit to goes GameMaster Konacon for working on the code for this release.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2143
Author: DOUG
Date: on 09/09/2016 09:30 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


Good spell! I especially like the 'significantly more difficult to resist' comment.

Thanks, Estild and Konacon, for bringing this spell to the wizard profession.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2144
Author: DEANSMITH
Date: on 09/09/2016 09:36 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


What was the command to cast Time Stop without having the wave come out?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2145
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 09/09/2016 09:40 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


DEANSMITH
What was the command to cast Time Stop without having the wave come out?

STOP TIME NOWAVE (or WAVE if you want to force it to release the wave while in town (if justice is on)).

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2146
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 09/09/2016 10:31 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


http://www.play.net/gs4/info/spells/spelllist.asp?circle=2#550 

 Still 'unnamed'

http://www.play.net/gs4/info/spells/spelllist.asp?circle=5#950 

 Still 'unnamed'



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2147
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 09/09/2016 10:35 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


KRAKII
http://www.play.net/gs4/info/spells/spelllist.asp?circle=2#550
Still 'unnamed'
http://www.play.net/gs4/info/spells/spelllist.asp?circle=5#950
Still 'unnamed'

We no longer update the spell database on the website. Players should use the wiki. I'll have it updated in the next few days.

...as always, Allereli already beat me to it for 550...

https://gswiki.play.net/550

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2148
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 09/09/2016 11:02 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


Then this page should come with a written redirect to the GSWiki: 

 http://www.play.net/gs4/info/spells/



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2149
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 09/09/2016 11:02 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


And, announcement re-written to include, you know. Line breaks after full sentences, and crap like that.


GS4-ESTILD Time Stop (550) on 09/09/2016 12:09 PM EDT #2142


Time Stop (550) has now been released and is a new capstone Major Elemental spell available to wizards.

When activated, it will remove a base 60 seconds of roundtime from the caster and reduce the duration of negative effects by the same amount (e.g. stuns, Bind (214), etc). It can be activated while in roundtime and while under most status conditions (stunned, webbed, immobile, etc) with the STOP TIME command.

Starting out, it may be used once per day and uses resets at midnight ET. • Training in Elemental Lore, Earth unlocks an additional use per day at 40, 115, and 190 ranks. • Training in Elemental Lore, Air increases the amount of roundtime that is removed and the amount of time that is removed from negative effects by (1.5 * seed 1 summation of their EL:A ranks) seconds (e.g. at 28 ranks, it removes an additional 10 seconds; at 55 ranks, it removes an additional 15 seconds, etc). • At 50 ranks of Elemental Lore, Water, the spell will automatically release an Elemental Wave (410) in the room, with additional lore training past that making it more difficult to resist. • At 50 ranks of Elemental Lore, Fire, the spell will automatically release a fire Elemental Wave (similar to 435 but without the roundtime) in the room, with additional lore training past that making it more difficult to resist. ● Having 50 ranks in both EL:W and EL:F causes it act exactly like a fire Major Elemental Wave (435). In either case (or when both effects are combined), the wave is significantly more difficult to resist than the base 410/435 spell alone.

Credit to goes GameMaster Konacon for working on the code for this release.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2150
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 09/09/2016 11:05 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


The final/combined FireWater paragraph should contain a 'to', as in "...causes it TO act..."

I've updated my archived copy, but not re-posting here.  :)

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2151
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 09/09/2016 11:38 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


KRAKII
Then this page should come with a written redirect to the GSWiki:
http://www.play.net/gs4/info/spells/

I'll request it, but that's really only needed for people who know the URL or bookmarked it. We already had it removed from the navigation menus on play.net.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2152
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 09/09/2016 12:40 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


Shows you how often I hit the 'Home' button, neh?  :)

And yet, if you "spell" in <either of> the Search box(es) on the Home page, it is the top listing (then followed by each of the circles). 

 I think most people would be more prone to use a search box ON that page, than to click on the Wiki (and then search there on the Wiki).
 But I may be projecting.

.

Next: if you are on the GemStone page and logged in, when you click on the "GemStone Wiki" button, you go directly to the Wiki page... on which you are NOT logged in. 

 1) I would suggest it spawn a new window, so that you can control your GemStone site login status as you wish; and
 2) You should wind up on the Wiki page already logged in, if you started that way from Play.Net.



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2153
Author: RROY
Date: on 09/09/2016 12:53 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550) Krakii thread


A lot of the onsite stuff is so out of date, they should just remove it. The Wiki should be the source for all detailed stuff. If I'm informed right, you have done a lot of work on the Wiki and a lot of your stuff has been ported over, thanks for your dedication to your fellow players Krakii. Just an elf about town...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2154
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 09/09/2016 01:01 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550) Krakii thread


Nope, I was just the ornamental figurehead for KrakiiPedia. 

 (I think it was actually a Wizard who posted that name; he was heavily researching <something> and mentioned that he was "pouring over the tomes in Krakiipedia" to find out.
 I was able to give him the answer, document where it came from, and correct his spelling [to 'poring'] all in a single post.
 Naos wrote me and asked if I would have a problem--seriously?  why the hell would I?!?!--using the name for real.  I was pickled tink.)



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2155
Author: RROY
Date: on 09/09/2016 01:13 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550) Krakii thread


Heh, I'm pretty sure your namesake site was the most visited for many years.

Just an elf about town...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2156
Author: VUWH60A
Date: on 09/09/2016 05:08 PM PDT
Subject: Please make NOWAVE as Default for 550/435


I have used 435 exactly ONCE - the week it was released. I killed Gremlynn with it during a House hunt, she had not yet re-grouped after an ambush.

An area effect spell that is unfriendly to passersby is too dicey for me to use, period.

Thank you for your consideration, Askip

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2157
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 09/09/2016 06:54 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Please make NOWAVE as Default for 550/435


I wouldn't want nowave as the default, but it might make sense to have a toggle, similar to the other save me spells being opt out, not opt in (Sigil of Escape comes to mind).

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2158
Author: TIGGEREYE
Date: on 09/10/2016 07:25 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


Bug and thoughts.

Kenstrom's storytime last night got a little heated, as a group of people burst into flames spontaneously. My character ended up being on the ground, stunned, burning alongside everyone else.. a few times. Perfect time to try it! So I did, but each time I got "Your armor prevents the spell from working correctly.", in response. I tried it a good seven or eight times, same thing.

Is the spell supposed to work when on fire? If so, there may be a bit of a bug there, since I can't believe my armor would fail me that many times in a row. If not, is there specific messaging we can get for situations when the spell won't work by design?

Also, I am assuming and hoping that a failed cast for whatever reason does not use up one's daily use.. Confirmation?

Aaaand in that vein, it would be so very amazingly nice if someone would consider our uses rolling over and stacking over time, perhaps with a limit. So if I did not use 550 today I would be able to use it twice tomorrow. I understand that in a normal hunt setting we should not be finding ourselves in the need to use the save me button that often, but as someone who participates heavily in storylines and invasions it is pretty much guaranteed Kenstrom or another GM will throw something at us or target us specifically, and I would love to be able to squeak out of those situations once in a while in addition to having the chance when I need it(rarely) while hunting. Asking for a break with cooldowns, or another route for additional uses(such as EMC) instead of earth lore, was not unreasonable to me.

___________________________________

The flamepoint sand kitten hisses at a patchwork flesh monstrosity. 

  ... 9 points of damage!



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2159
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 09/10/2016 11:31 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


Our spell power shouldn't be balanced around storylines. 350 and 1150 cooldowns do not roll over either, and they require lores to unlock, so I think the way 550 works is fine.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2160
Author: TIGGEREYE
Date: on 09/10/2016 12:25 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


Thanks for your opinion :) I agree a profession's power shouldn't be wholly balanced around storylines/rp(or Duskruin), although I think altogether ignoring rp/storylines when making these decisions is a mistake. It's also my personal main beef with the forced lore split- A dedicated rp'd <insert element> mage should not be forced to ignore maxxing "their" lore and train in other lores to make the player feel more mechanically viable.

All aspects of a player's enjoyment of the game- be it solo hunting, group hunting, storylines, Duskruin, etc- should never be ignored, and since no one has mentioned the rp and storyline aspect, I thought I'd give my opinion on a tiny facet of it.

Because of that, I still disagree with the cooldown. I'd like to not compare it to other spells, but if I were comparing I'd certainly include the bard song in with the ones that keep getting mentioned. I think Methais said the only difference between that song and this spell is rt reduction and the ewave... and the song has no cooldown and works for groups. Like Methais suggested, I wouldn't mind leaving the cooldown on the rt/ewave aspect, but allowing us to use a basic version more. OR roll over the whole spell a couple times with a limit, which I still don't think is unreasonable and would like Elstid's or a NIR's opinion on it.

BUT my main reason for posting earlier was to point out the maybe-bug with casting 550 last night, and I ended up rambling.

___________________________________

The flamepoint sand kitten hisses at a patchwork flesh monstrosity. 

  ... 9 points of damage!



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2161
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 09/10/2016 12:37 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


>but if I were comparing I'd certainly include the bard song in with the ones that keep getting mentioned

I absolutely wouldn't compare it to 1040 as semi's spells are more powerful because they have no utility spells such as enchanting and ensorcell. It's the tradeoff.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2162
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 09/11/2016 09:16 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


Two points of feedback:

1) >> >stop time >> You attempt to twist the the elements of time to your bidding, but are too exhausted for the task. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

Not in RT, Stun, or anything else. Just casting the spell for a 2nd time. Should it throw me into 3 seconds of cast RT when nothing happends?

2) Imagining that time has stopped around me I would think I might have an opportunity to get prepared for time to resume around me. Can we simulate this by throwing everything in the room into 3 or 5 seconds of hard RT so there is a bit of a pause in the action?

-- Robert

A powerful whirlpool is suddenly overtaken by a windy vortex!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2163
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 09/11/2016 09:24 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


TIGGEREYE
Kenstrom's storytime last night got a little heated, as a group of people burst into flames spontaneously. My character ended up being on the ground, stunned, burning alongside everyone else.. a few times. Perfect time to try it! So I did, but each time I got "Your armor prevents the spell from working correctly.", in response. I tried it a good seven or eight times, same thing.

Can you post or email me a log of the incident? I'm trying to reproduce it, but when I try to STOP TIME while immolated, it's giving me the "You are in far too much agony to do that." message. What armor is your character wearing and how many Armor Use ranks do they have?

TIGGEREYE
Is the spell supposed to work when on fire? If so, there may be a bit of a bug there, since I can't believe my armor would fail me that many times in a row. If not, is there specific messaging we can get for situations when the spell won't work by design?

It will vary on a case by case basis. It'll work in most circumstances, but if it's storyline event with an NPC having special abilities, I'm not going to override those. However, the effect in question is just Immolation (519).

TIGGEREYE
Also, I am assuming and hoping that a failed cast for whatever reason does not use up one's daily use.. Confirmation?

Correct.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2164
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 09/11/2016 09:28 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


Robert
Not in RT, Stun, or anything else. Just casting the spell for a 2nd time. Should it throw me into 3 seconds of cast RT when nothing happends?

Yes, a failed cast is still a cast. You had spend 3 seconds trying to cast the spell, to only have it fail at the end. Normally, it would cost mana too, but we felt 50 mana for a failed attempt was too harsh.

Robert
Imagining that time has stopped around me I would think I might have an opportunity to get prepared for time to resume around me. Can we simulate this by throwing everything in the room into 3 or 5 seconds of hard RT so there is a bit of a pause in the action?

Conceptually, there are a significant number of the things the spell could do, but we have to draw the line somewhere. Mechanically, we offer the induced RT through the Elemental Lore, Water benefit.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2165
Author: TIGGEREYE
Date: on 09/11/2016 10:34 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


Emailed. Thank you

___________________________________

The flamepoint sand kitten hisses at a patchwork flesh monstrosity. 

  ... 9 points of damage!



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2166
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 09/11/2016 09:03 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


TIGGEREYE
Kenstrom's storytime last night got a little heated, as a group of people burst into flames spontaneously. My character ended up being on the ground, stunned, burning alongside everyone else.. a few times. Perfect time to try it! So I did, but each time I got "Your armor prevents the spell from working correctly.", in response. I tried it a good seven or eight times, same thing.
Is the spell supposed to work when on fire? If so, there may be a bit of a bug there, since I can't believe my armor would fail me that many times in a row. If not, is there specific messaging we can get for situations when the spell won't work by design?

Thanks for the log. STOP TIME should now work while immolated.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2167
Author: BORENJ2
Date: on 09/11/2016 09:10 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


The first day 550 came out I used:

Inc 550 and saw the awesome messaging with the hourglass and such, and apparently that was my use for the day. It killed no RT, and at the time I didn't know it, so when I did need it while stuck in RT (the same day) I tried to use it and I couldn't.

The second day, I login and think (without checking using <spell>) okay I just need to use the stop time command when I need it. Again, when I was locked in RT it gave me the messaging that it was on cool down.

So today, I login and check using <spell> and it said I have used my Time Stop spell 1 out of 1 times today. Odd, asked around on Lnet, bugged it, and went about my business, knowing I wouldn't be able to use it.

I waited around until it reset tonight, having not used stop time or inc 550 and when I check <spell> I get:

You have cast the Time Stop spell 1 out of 1 times for today. The available uses will reset in 23 hours and 59 minutes.

Soooo I asked around on Lnet and I'm not the only one encountering this. Any help would be appreciated. :)


- Whill

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2168
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 09/11/2016 09:28 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


Whill
The first day 550 came out I used:
Inc 550 and saw the awesome messaging with the hourglass and such, and apparently that was my use for the day. It killed no RT, and at the time I didn't know it, so when I did need it while stuck in RT (the same day) I tried to use it and I couldn't.
The second day, I login and think (without checking using ) okay I just need to use the stop time command when I need it. Again, when I was locked in RT it gave me the messaging that it was on cool down.
So today, I login and check using and it said I have used my Time Stop spell 1 out of 1 times today. Odd, asked around on Lnet, bugged it, and went about my business, knowing I wouldn't be able to use it.
I waited around until it reset tonight, having not used stop time or inc 550 and when I check I get:
You have cast the Time Stop spell 1 out of 1 times for today. The available uses will reset in 23 hours and 59 minutes.
Soooo I asked around on Lnet and I'm not the only one encountering this. Any help would be appreciated. :)

This should now be fixed. Thanks for reporting it.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2169
Author: RROY
Date: on 09/12/2016 12:05 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550) I cast it once and...


Had a griffin scoop me up and drop me after an aerial tour... mid level chest wound, prolly would have dies because there were other creatures where we landed. My first cast ever and it saved my bacon!

Rift yea!

Just an elf about town...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2171
Author: DRAFIX
Date: on 09/19/2016 05:03 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


For the 410 effect via water lore, I'm guessing it doesn't actually work against anything that's immune to 410? Like say vvrael, rift crawlers, things that are already affected by e-wave?

It would be appreciated if there could be *at least* a minor 1 round rt effect against critters regardless of immunities since you're STOPPING TIME and not stopping the critter. The 50 water lore requirement is quite high and if you go for the 96/60/46 route for 202 lores then you'll never really hit that 50 water lore if you're trying to reach an ideal summation seed bonus.

The 50 water lores is an odd requirement since all the other summation seed bonuses for water lore is either 45/46 -> 54/55, putting 50 right in the middle of that range. In order to achieve that 50 bonus you'd have to lose out on a lot of bonuses you could have gotten from the 96 bonuses. It seems to be a rather cruel and unusual punishment for an effect that should already be part of the spell. Without this effect, it is the same as beseech/troubadour rally but with limited uses per day. Effectively this 410 effect could be replaced with a macro for "STOP TIME\r incant 410\r".

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2172
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 09/23/2016 04:32 PM PDT
Subject: 508 typo/bug


I got this messaging in Reim today, but I'm not really sure what this is intended to mean. Either way, seems like a typo or bug:

J>An ethereal knight whispers a curse and gestures at you! 

 CS: +429 - TD: +440 + CvA: +14 + d100: +60 == +63
 Warded off!

Elemental Bias you. The magic clashes harmlessly and dissipates away.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2173
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 09/23/2016 05:50 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 508 typo/bug


That looks like you hit the LotteryBenefit, most likely for Elemental Bias.

(And I suspect the "build the string to printout" part had a hiccup.)

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2175
Author: CANDIDE
Date: on 09/27/2016 09:14 PM PDT
Subject: 506 clarification on Utility round time lessening.


I have Hide (30+Ranks)/20 reaching whole numbers at 10 ranks=2, 30 Ranks=3, 50 Ranks=4, 70 Ranks=5, 90 ranks=6 etc. Now that is the whole number but is it rounded up? So that would mean 1 Ranks=2 seconds, 20 Ranks=3(2.5), 40 Ranks=3(2.5), 60 Ranks=4(3.5), 80 Ranks=5(4.5) etc

Same question for all the other Utility skills do the bonuses kick in and round up or at the whole number?

GBB

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2176
Author: DRUMPEL
Date: on 09/27/2016 09:41 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 506 clarification on Utility round time lessening.


I figure, like most other things that I'm aware of in game, the number truncates.

So if you have 55 air lore ranks and you attempt to hide:

(30 + 55 (EL:A ranks)) / 20 = 4.25 truncate down to 4.

If you have 69 ranks EL:A, it should also shave off 4 seconds for hiding (30 + 69)/20 = 4.95 truncate down to 4

Just to test...

My wizard has no hiding ranks. So on the test server I dropped 55 EL:A ranks on him.
>hide
Roundtime: 10 sec.
You attempt to blend with the surroundings, and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.
>unhid
You do not believe anyone noticed you slip out of hiding.
>incant 506
You recite a series of mystical phrases while raising your hands, invoking Celerity...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture.
You suddenly start moving light-footedly.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
(Forcing stance down to guarded)
>
>hide
Roundtime: 10 sec.
Roundtime changed to 6 seconds.
You attempt to blend with the surroundings, and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.
My wizard has no hiding ranks. So on the test server I dropped 55 EL:A ranks on him.
>hide
You fail to slip into hiding.
Roundtime: 10 sec.
>incant 506
You recite a series of mystical phrases while raising your hands, invoking Celerity...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture.
You suddenly start moving light-footedly.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>hide
You fail to slip into hiding.
Roundtime: 10 sec.
Roundtime changed to 6 seconds.
My wizard has no hiding skill and I moved up to 70 EL:A, RT for hiding now reduced by 5 seconds
>hide
You fail to slip into hiding.
Roundtime: 10 sec.
>incant 506
You recite a series of mystical phrases while raising your hands, invoking Celerity...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture.
You suddenly start moving light-footedly.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>hide
Roundtime: 10 sec.
Roundtime changed to 5 seconds.
You attempt to blend with the surroundings, and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.

-Drumple

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2177
Author: SJOSEPH
Date: on 09/30/2016 04:57 AM PDT
Subject: Cold snap seriously bugged on Bowells monsters.


It's bugged on all monsters apart from the earth elementals.



You channel at a greater krynch. You hurl a large boulder at a greater krynch! 

 AS: +455 vs DS: +166 with AvD: +22 + d100 roll: +37 = +348

The stream of water washes harmlessly over the greater krynch. Powerful blow shatters a greater krynch's frozen right eye, causing 150 points of damage! Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

and


You channel at a greater krynch. You hurl a stream of water at a greater krynch, but it freezes just before impact. Carefully, you summon the chunk of ice back to your hand... You hurl a chunk of ice at a greater krynch! 

 AS: +455 vs DS: +194 with AvD: +12 + d100 roll: +38 = +311

The stream of water washes harmlessly over the greater krynch. Powerful blow shatters a greater krynch's frozen head, causing 150 points of damage! The greater krynch shudders, then topples to the ground. The air about a greater krynch stops shimmering. A greater krynch returns to normal color. The block of ice encasing a greater krynch melts away. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds


For some reason minor cold or hurl boulder is turning into minor water with coldsnapx2 and causing no damage as a result, the shatter part still works though, the same thing happens on illoke elders and Jarls. The greater earth elementals and normal earth elementals work fine with coldsnapx2 minor water/minor cold/hurl boulder

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2178
Author: HIPPO-GRANDE
Date: on 10/02/2016 03:49 PM PDT
Subject: Update 502


Give 502 the boost it deserves!

(drumroll..)

Super-Flares


When applied to a magical weapon (enchant, flaring, weighting, etc.) then the properties will gain a chance to 'Super-Flare'. If you have vibe crits then you can get a multiplier to damage/crit factor, etc. with a nice visual detail. If you have weighting, you get a super-strike where the weighting goes up and/or is enhanced in the hidden rolls (which came with the new mechanics gs3-gs4 or so). If there is only an enchant, a chance to give Jesh's blade a salute with a Super-Flare on the enchant! Maybe even the chance to cast an offensive SPELL from the Wizards arsenal based on attunement or some other selection/lore factor..

Lore based training can obviously be applied-- activation of new crits, stacked crits, heightened or varied, higher weighting, higher odds, etc.

Much more mana cost of course for when cast upon a magical weapon, say 20 base + lore additions * applied cost.

Could be a really nice thing to design super looking flares. Would be awesome in invasions.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2179
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 10/02/2016 09:33 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Update 502


Runestaves don't have weighting and enchant only adds to DS.

Making the solution gear based probably isn't the best way to go about it either.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2180
Author: DRAFIX
Date: on 10/03/2016 03:08 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


>Tapping into the lines of elemental energies traversing the world, you reach out and twist a few to your bidding. A golden hourglass materializes in front of you and you quickly turn it over, temporarily halting the flow of time in your immediate vicinity.
You stand up.
You are now in a defensive stance.
A sphere of dark ethereal ripples expands outward from you.
A huge steam elemental absorbs some of the energy of the ethereal waves.

So yeah, it does nothing against everything that is immune to 410. Please fix.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2181
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 10/03/2016 07:35 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


DRAFIX
So yeah, it does nothing against everything that is immune to 410. Please fix.

It still removed your roundtime, reduced negative spell effects on you, and stood you up. It did do something. It's not a bug that creatures that are immune to elemental wave are not affected by Time Stop's elemental wave.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2183
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 10/03/2016 08:08 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


>It still removed your roundtime, reduced negative spell effects on you, and stood you up. It did do something. It's not a bug that creatures that are immune to elemental wave are not affected by Time Stop's elemental wave.

This is understandable, but where exactly is the part where time stops happening? Based on how the spell works, it seems that Time Acceleration would be a more accurate name.

What I was hoping for instead of just an e-wave was an actual time stop effect that stops critters in their tracks for however long, even if it's only for a handful of seconds.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2184
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 10/03/2016 08:38 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


Methais
This is understandable, but where exactly is the part where time stops happening? Based on how the spell works, it seems that Time Acceleration would be a more accurate name.

You stopped time for 60 seconds. For everyone else, it seems normal. For you, time went on, hince you got out of the roundtime, negative effects expired, and you stood up.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2185
Author: DRAFIX
Date: on 10/03/2016 08:51 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


Does it stand you up? I had that as part of my alias. stop time\rstance off\rstand\rstance def\r

So effectively, it's just beseech/troubadour rally but with limited uses per day for more mana. I'd rather it work unlimited times per day and not work in rt (which 535 takes care of already).

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2186
Author: DRAFIX
Date: on 10/03/2016 08:55 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


I have had this spell do basically nothing as I did stop time, then died to an attack instantly after using it in a swarm vs vvrael, cerebralites, elementals, etc.

If I truly had 60 seconds to recover, I wouldn't just spend 30 seconds of it on the ground in offensive. I'd use symbol of return or heal up or something instead of just instant dying.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2187
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 10/03/2016 09:09 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


DRAFIX
>Tapping into the lines of elemental energies traversing the world, you reach out and twist a few to your bidding. A golden hourglass materializes in front of you and you quickly turn it over, temporarily halting the flow of time in your immediate vicinity.
You stand up.
You are now in a defensive stance.
A sphere of dark ethereal ripples expands outward from you.
A huge steam elemental absorbs some of the energy of the ethereal waves.
DRAFIX
Does it stand you up? I had that as part of my alias. stop time\rstance off\rstand\rstance def\r

If you're not otherwise restricted (stunned, bound, etc), yes. It also moves you into defensive stance. Notice in your log how it has the messaging, you standing up, going into defensive, then the elemental wave. Player commands can't happen in between the first and last action, as the spell is executing then. That's all built in.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2188
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 10/03/2016 10:06 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


550 has worked well for me, and I don't see issues with it for a pure wizard. It's balanced compared to how other pures' "save me" spells are allocated (350, 1150), and I appreciate that.

It stands you up, puts you in defensive, and generally gets you out of RT so you can run away in true emergencies. It's not meant to be used indiscriminately.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2189
Author: RAGGLER
Date: on 10/03/2016 01:37 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


I'm also happy with where Time Stop has ended up. However, I would find something as little as a 5 second RT applied to everything in the room as a "time stop" for them, as a much better lore benefit then ewave. Ewave is just a dicey spell, with too many things immune, like elementals in the confluence, to ever be something you can really count on. A hard 5 second RT to everything in the room would be the time you need to collect yourself or scamper away depending on the situation. It would also be a lot more player friendly.

Isle Snack Muncher

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2190
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 10/03/2016 06:25 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


>> A hard 5 second RT to everything in the room would be the time you need to collect yourself or scamper away depending on the situation. It would also be a lot more player friendly.

This is the gist of what I was looking for in an earlier post as well. The time to collect your thoughts and contemplate your next action. This seems like something that should be inherent in a spell that lets you stop the world around you.

-- Robert aka Faulkil

A powerful whirlpool is suddenly overtaken by a windy vortex!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2191
Author: VUWH60A
Date: on 10/04/2016 07:06 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


I just wish the spell would cancel an Air Griffin flight.

D

Askip

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2192
Author: DEANSMITH
Date: on 10/04/2016 05:07 PM PDT
Subject: Mage Armor


Mage Armor (520): base effect is somewhat crit padding (5 points). Scales with MjE spell ranks such that at 100 spell ranks (cap), it offers heavy crit padding (10 points, actual scaling is MjE spell ranks / 20). Stacks with normal armor crit padding and other special effects (sigils, etc). In addition, the wizard can have the armor take on elemental aspect (based upon attunement or unlock each element at 20 lore ranks). Earth offers additional crit padding while stunned (base is +10 crit padding with EL:E offering +1 per seed 1 with a 2 multiplier). Lightning will try to stun (10 sec) everything in the room if the wizards gets stunned; starts with a 30 second cooldown lowered by seed 3 of (EL:W + EL:A) / 2. Fire allows the caster to channel spells in less offensive stances (meaning the wizard could be forward stance, but when they channel a spell, it will treat them as offensive stance, base is 15% increase in stance with EL:F seed 1). Air allows the caster to carry more weight before getting encumbered (base is 10 lbs with +1 per seed 1 EL:A). Water offer dispel protection (first targeted dispel will be negated against the caster); starts with a 30 second cooldown lowered by seed 1 of EL:W. Credit to GameMaster Viidus for a lot of the original design.

I have some questions about the fire aspect mage armor as it was proposed here.

Is the base benefit:

1) 15% CHANCE to increase stance (to offensive) when channeling.

OR

2) Increase stance BY 15% when channeling.

I am REALLY hoping for option 2. If it does work in this way, and I am interpreting it correctly, does the benefit look something like this if the Wizard has 120 EL:F ranks (+15%)?

BOLTING OFF ADV FOR NEU GUA
MODIFIER 1.00 0.90 0.80 0.70 0.60
WITH 520 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 0.90
WARDING OFF ADV FOR NEU GUA
ONE HAND
20 16 12 8 5
WITH 520
20 20 18 14 11
TWO HAND
40 32 24 16 10
WITH 520
40 40 36 28 22



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2193
Author: PFLATS
Date: on 10/04/2016 05:51 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


>I'd rather it work unlimited times per day and not work in rt (which 535 takes care of already).

Disagree strongly.

>However, I would find something as little as a 5 second RT applied to everything in the room as a "time stop" for them, as a much better lore benefit then ewave.

Same. I think 504 with lore benefits swapped to water lore would be my choice, actually.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2194
Author: PFLATS
Date: on 10/04/2016 06:03 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor


If I've read it correctly, it increases your effective stance by a base of 15%. In other words, it effectively decreases your parry by 15%.

Full offensive is 0% parry. Guarded is 80% parry. Guarded + fire lore = 65% parry = 5% short of neutral (60% parry).

210 ranks fire lore will give you the benefits of an almost-full-offensive 5% stance from a forward 40% stance (15 base + 20 seed 1).

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2195
Author: DRAFIX
Date: on 10/04/2016 10:04 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


Definitely makes more sense than 410. At least 504 affects a lot more things than 410, cerebralites, elementals, rift crawlers comes to mind. However liches would ignore it but wouldn't ignore 410.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2196
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 10/04/2016 11:03 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


>Same. I think 504 with lore benefits swapped to water lore would be my choice, actually.

Disagree with this as it would have even less chance to work for most wizards than the current setup.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2197
Author: DRAFIX
Date: on 10/05/2016 07:10 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


You mean for people who somehow don't train in MjE circle? Seeing as how that's where our bolt AS comes from, I find that highly unlikely. Though if for some reason a 50th train wizard doesn't have enough MjE ranks to ward something like level, then perhaps it should be changed into a standard maneuver system like 410 but at the same time, most wizards can ward like level targets with 100% success rate but not everything goes down 100% of the time with 410 (but still pretty high chance)

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2198
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 10/05/2016 08:33 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


I'm talking about lore.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2199
Author: DRAFIX
Date: on 10/05/2016 09:03 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


Considering air lore is still the #1 lore that provides the most bonuses to more spells than any other lore in comparison... it would be unlikely that a wizard doesn't train in air lore. But let's trading air lore for some special build like fire lore heavy build for immolation and 950 AS/CS boost. Well then too bad, you traded fire lore for AS/CS boost, therefore you don't get the benefits of air lore, that is what a trade-off means. At the same time, as of right now the 50 water lore does nothing for me. 46 water lore gives me the 24 free mana for 950 but I'm beginning to think 24 mana is something I can afford and I should just dump it all into another lore again...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2200
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 10/05/2016 09:45 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


I think we're miscommunicating but my comment was about swapping to a water lore requirement.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2201
Author: TIGGEREYE
Date: on 10/05/2016 10:59 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


Should 550 stop something like the cman bearhug? You do get immobilized for rounds of time.. I know other factors are involved with cmans, so I'm curious. I was bearhugged last night, and 550 didn't work, I ended up dying.. for a moment I had an entertaining visual of my character breaking an unwanted hug with timestop and a major wave, heh.

___________________________________

The flamepoint sand kitten hisses at a patchwork flesh monstrosity. 

  ... 9 points of damage!



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2202
Author: DRUMPEL
Date: on 10/05/2016 11:09 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


>Should 550 stop something like the cman bearhug? You do get immobilized for rounds of time.. I know other factors are involved with cmans, so I'm curious. I was bearhugged last night, and 550 didn't work, I ended up dying.. for a moment I had an entertaining visual of my character breaking an unwanted hug with timestop and a major wave, heh.

The spell only removes up to 60 seconds of RT, stun duration and immobilization spells (such as bind). If your stun duration was greater than 60 seconds, you're still going to be stunned.

If that was the case, then perhaps the stun duration of a bear hug needs to be looked at for the creature that wrapped it's powerful, bone crushing arms around you.

-Drumpel

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2203
Author: TIGGEREYE
Date: on 10/05/2016 11:18 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


Right, but I was unable to cast the spell at all. Messaging was something along the lines of "you're too busy being squished by a big smelly troll man, to do that". Also bear hugs are rolls for each round I think?, so I'd think we'd be able to break a single round and have a chance to run or kill, maybe? ___________________________________

The flamepoint sand kitten hisses at a patchwork flesh monstrosity. 

  ... 9 points of damage!



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2204
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 10/05/2016 12:55 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


Problem is, sure, you stopped time, but he's still holding onto you.

"If you're not otherwise restricted (stunned, bound, etc), yes." -- Estild, #2187

You am restricted (by his burly hairy arms).

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2205
Author: DOUG
Date: on 10/05/2016 01:23 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


While I can appreciate the possibility of 11+ rounds of 'incapacitation', I'm not sure I'd expect to see it at the 'direbear / hairy troll' level.

I suspect we're seeing this as an 'issue' now because before, we had no option but to die / luck out in waiting. The former probably happened far more frequently than the latter. Now we have this cool new toy. . .

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2206
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 10/05/2016 01:29 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


I just envision the weedy little nerd getting caught by the bully. Sure, I've stopped time, but pry as I might, I can't lever his grip open.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2207
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 10/05/2016 02:15 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


>Should 550 stop something like the cman bearhug? You do get immobilized for rounds of time.. I know other factors are involved with cmans, so I'm curious. I was bearhugged last night, and 550 didn't work, I ended up dying.. for a moment I had an entertaining visual of my character breaking an unwanted hug with timestop and a major wave, heh.

Estild said he needed to manually add in effects such as CMANs, so it's worth asking for it to be looked into. He was able to add in sunder shield, for example.

It's actual mechanics such as being eaten by a crawler that was declined due to being too complex to address.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2208
Author: DEANSMITH
Date: on 10/05/2016 04:49 PM PDT
Subject: Immolate


I had meant to post about this a while ago but completely forgot until it happened again tonight, but I don't think it should be possible for the concussion damage portion to deal 0 damage. It WAS on a 101 endroll, but still...

You could also buff the concussion damage modifier to be more rewarding while you are in there looking around too... :D


You gesture at a battle-scarred Grimswarm troll ranger. 

 CS: +524 - TD: +475 + CvA: +8 + d100: +44 == +101
 Warding failed!

Wisps of black smoke swirl around a battle-scarred Grimswarm troll ranger and he bursts into flame causing 0 points of damage! 

  ... 5 points of damage!
  Minor burns to right arm.  That hurts a bit.

The troll ranger screeches loudly as the fire scorches his skin! 

  ... 10 points of damage!
  Minor burns to neck.  Looks uncomfortable.

  ... 2 points of damage!
  Minor burns to neck.  Looks uncomfortable.

The troll ranger screams in agony as the flames barbecue his flesh! 

  ... 10 points of damage!
  Minor burns to back.  Looks uncomfortable.

  ... 10 points of damage!
  Minor burns to left hand.  Ouch.

The troll ranger howls in agony as the flames dance over his body! 

  ... 10 points of damage!
  Minor burns to head.  That hurt a bit.

The flames around a battle-scarred Grimswarm troll ranger continue to burn!

A surge of power flows through your grey faewood runestaff and courses through you, the sensation at once familiar and foreign, and lends an uncanny invigoration to your muscles. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. (Forcing stance down to guarded)

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2209
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 10/05/2016 07:20 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolate


Your skill probably makes the math come out to .49hp damage or so, which truncates down to 0.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2211
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 10/05/2016 09:42 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Immolate


>You could also buff the concussion damage modifier to be more rewarding while you are in there looking around too... :D

Please for the love of bacon do this. It's pretty terrible right now. :(

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2212
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 10/06/2016 08:21 AM PDT
Subject: Haste Bug


Superevilgigglyempathofdoom gestures at you. 

 CS: +508 - TD: +387 + CvA: +15 + d100: +12 - -5 == +153
 Warding failed!
 You feel a sudden inexplicable fear!
 You freeze, unable to control the wave of fear that swells within you!
 Roundtime: 30 sec.

Roundtime changed to 15 seconds.

16 seconds later after the RT was up...

>sym sleep Superevilgigglyempathofdoom You can't move well enough to create the symbol!

>sym sleep Superevilgigglyempathofdoom You can't move well enough to create the symbol!

Superevilgigglyempathofdoom sets about preparing you to be as presentable as possible. > sym sleep Superevilgigglyempathofdoom You can't move well enough to create the symbol!

Not sure if this is an issue with Haste or the spell she cast (can't remember what the spell is), but yeah.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2213
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 10/06/2016 08:33 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Haste Bug


Methais
16 seconds later after the RT was up...
>sym sleep Superevilgigglyempathofdoom
You can't move well enough to create the symbol!

This is not a bug. Haste (535) reduced the amount of roundtime the Empathy (1108) spell applied. You were simply still immobile after that amount of time. If you were still in roundtime while trying to use a symbol, you'll get the "...wait X seconds" message.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2214
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 10/06/2016 08:37 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Haste Bug


>This is not a bug. Haste (535) reduced the amount of roundtime the Empathy (1108) spell applied. You were simply still immobile after that amount of time. If you were still in roundtime while trying to use a symbol, you'll get the "...wait X seconds" message.

Isn't the RT supposed to represent the time being frozen? If not, then what's the point of having RT if the freeze effect lasts longer anyway?

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2215
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 10/06/2016 02:33 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


TIGGEREYE
Should 550 stop something like the cman bearhug? You do get immobilized for rounds of time.. I know other factors are involved with cmans, so I'm curious. I was bearhugged last night, and 550 didn't work, I ended up dying.. for a moment I had an entertaining visual of my character breaking an unwanted hug with timestop and a major wave, heh.

It does now.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2216
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 10/06/2016 02:41 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


Thanks for this fix.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2217
Author: TIGGEREYE
Date: on 10/06/2016 03:01 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


Awesome, thank you!

___________________________________

The flamepoint sand kitten hisses at a patchwork flesh monstrosity. 

  ... 9 points of damage!



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2218
Author: PFLATS
Date: on 10/06/2016 06:04 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Haste Bug


>Isn't the RT supposed to represent the time being frozen? If not, then what's the point of having RT if the freeze effect lasts longer anyway?

They have different effects.

RT prevents way more actions than immobilization. Immobilization has other deleterious effects, like a huge penalty to your defenses, but allows far more actions. 1108 inflicts both, which is stronger than inflicting just one or the other.

Critters that break immobilization would do so on their next round if there was no RT; the RT ensures that they have to take their lumps. While immobilized, warrior could berserk free, a bard could SHOUT Rally to break free, and an empath could REGEN to heal up and get crit padding. Unlike STOP TIME, none of those are possible in RT. (Of course, those classes can't reduce their RT as easily as a wizard can.)

I can't think of any advantage in particular a wizard would get from having RT reduced but not immobilization, but I'm sure there are some special cases out there. You might be able to tell a spider bag to pick something up?

If your point is "but the RT is supposed to represent the fear and haste should remove that", then I guess the counterargument is that moving your body faster doesn't necessarily mean you adjust your emotions faster?

The RT seems to be there to enforce the immobilization, not the other way around, so I'd assume that this is the desired end result.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2219
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 10/10/2016 11:02 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


Can we have either the cast RT removed from e-wave with 550, or let us toggle whether STOP TIME auto casts it or not? Sometimes casting e-wave can cause more problems than without, i.e. you use STOP TIME to get out of a jam and try to fog out right after before you get smacked again, but you can't because you're in cast RT for 3 seconds. This is even more fun when you're in a room full of stuff that ewave has no effect on at all.

Simply leaving the room isn't always an option either depending on your injuries and what's in the surrounding rooms, which you're not gonna exactly have time to PEER to check first either.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2220
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 10/10/2016 11:08 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


>let us toggle whether STOP TIME auto casts it or not?

We can already do this.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2221
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 10/10/2016 11:09 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


I guess I just suck at Gemstone.

What's the verb for this?

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2222
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 10/10/2016 11:13 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


STOP TIME NOWAVE

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2223
Author: PFLATS
Date: on 10/12/2016 08:41 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


>I think we're miscommunicating but my comment was about swapping to a water lore requirement.

The original discussion was replacing ewave with flat RT as a lore benefit. The ewave is triggered by water lore. I was saying have water lore trigger a 504-like effect instead of e-wave, but replace slow's air lore requirements in this one specific instance with water lore because it's the 550 water lore bonus. That's all.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2224
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 10/12/2016 09:03 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


>The ewave is triggered by water lore. I was saying have water lore trigger a 504-like effect instead of e-wave, but replace slow's air lore requirements in this one specific instance with water lore because it's the 550 water lore bonus. That's all.

The WATER wave (410) is triggered by water lore. The fire wave (435 without RT) is triggered by fire lore. Both water + fire lore = full 435. Regardless, it's useless to assume that wizards have 50 ranks of water lore, and I wouldn't want the entire fire lore effect replaced by a water lore requirement either.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2225
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 10/13/2016 07:00 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


He didn't say anything about the full-Major Wave (both water + fire) effect at all.

He said, 

1) take away the Minor Wave/410 effect (since it's largely useless, due to immunities);
2) replace it with a Slow/504-like effect;
*) (Note that Slow/504 normally works with Air Lore, and this is the 'Water' benefit area of Time Stop/550);
3) for this particular Slow-like effect ONLY, use 'Water' instead of 'Air' for the relevant calculation, since this is the Water Lore effect that is being worked upon.

Everything involved is "the benefit from Water lore"; everything deals with the same 'level' of benefit (the minor wave stage), and higher/different element stages are unaffected (i.e. "you still need Water + Fire for the full wave effect").

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2226
Author: GAROFALOA
Date: on 10/17/2016 11:09 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Haste Bug


I've run into the same thing with ballista. Old haste and new. I thought it was supposed to be that way.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2227
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 10/22/2016 10:36 AM PDT
Subject: 550 w/another spell prepped


I'm guessing this is intended, but wanted to check anyway, since using 550 doesn't require you to actually prep the spell.

Got stunned while I had 516 prepped and then...

>stop time You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to cast another!

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2228
Author: EARTHDIVER
Date: on 10/27/2016 10:39 PM PDT
Subject: 506 Celerity and emptying boxes into containers


Is Celerity (or Haste) supposed to reduce the roundtime involved in emptying a box into a container? Neither appear to do anything.

Thanks

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2229
Author: DRUMPEL
Date: on 10/28/2016 07:50 AM PDT
Subject: Re: 506 Celerity and emptying boxes into containers


>Is Celerity (or Haste) supposed to reduce the roundtime involved in emptying a box into a container? Neither appear to do anything.

Probably not.

I think we'll be given a third haste-type spell for things like this. That seems to be the way haste-type spells have transformed into. I've glimpsed the future of wizard spells and I'm a firm believer that things will slowly progress to give a new spell circle for time mages!

You can read my thoughts about it here: http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Wizards/Developer's%20Corner%20-%20Wizards/view/3156

All joking aside - you probably won't see this action added to the benefit of 506 or 535.

-Drumpel

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2230
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 10/28/2016 08:28 AM PDT
Subject: Re: 506 Celerity and emptying boxes into containers


Haste most definitely reduces RT for emptying containers.

>empt bag in other bag You try to empty the contents of your bag into your bag, and everything falls in quite nicely. Roundtime: 3 sec. Roundtime changed to 1 second.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2231
Author: EARTHDIVER
Date: on 10/28/2016 05:05 PM PDT
Subject: Re: 506 Celerity and emptying boxes into containers


>Haste most definitely reduces RT for emptying containers.

>empt bag in other bag >You try to empty the contents of your bag into your bag, and everything falls in quite nicely. >Roundtime: 3 sec. >Roundtime changed to 1 second.

It's working for me now. I'm going to go with user error.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2232
Author: GS4-VIDUUS
Date: on 11/04/2016 03:56 PM PDT
Subject: Mage Armor (520) Released!


The major elemental spell 520 - Mage Armor has been released. This spell replaces the previous spell Stone Skin.

Mage Armor manipulates the elemental forces within a wizard's body, forming a layer of elemental energy that shifts with their movements. This self-cast spell provides additional protection from physical attacks in the form of critical padding.

The base amount of padding for native casters is somewhat at 20 Major Elemental ranks, increasing every 15 Major Elemental ranks to a max of heavy padding at 95 ranks.

Note: Non-native casters can only achieve light critical padding with this spell, and elemental aspects are not available to non-native casters. Note: The critical padding provided by this spell and it's aspects stack with other forms of padding. The armor can be further enhanced by focusing on specific elements to further shore up defenses via CAST <Element>. Focusing on an element will produce additional defenses based on lore training in the respective elemental lore.

Focusing on the Fire Aspect of this spell allows a mage to channel his defenses into stronger offensive attacks. Focusing on the Water Aspect of this spell boosts the mage's defenses against dispel attacks. Focusing on the Earth Aspect of this spell will shield the mage in a layer of rock when he becomes stunned. Focusing on the Air Aspect of this spell will allow the mage to carry more. Focusing on the Lightning Aspect of this spell will stun all enemies in the room for a short time when the mage becomes stunned.

More specific details can be found on the wiki at this link https://gswiki.play.net/Mage_Armor_(520)

Credit to goes GameMaster Konacon for working on the code for this release.

Viduus

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2233
Author: DOUG
Date: on 11/04/2016 04:01 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


Looks intriguing!

Gonna have to go play with this one a bit.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2234
Author: VICIMER
Date: on 11/04/2016 04:06 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


Isn't the Friday news dump for bad things?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2235
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 11/04/2016 04:17 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


Thanks for all the work on this new spell!

Are we sure it's live though? The messaging seems a mix of both.

>stop 520 With a moment's concentration, you terminate the Stone Skin spell. The layer of stone surrounding you crumbles away.

>pre 520 You recite a series of mystical phrases while raising your hands, invoking Stone Skin... Your spell is ready.

>cast fire You gesture. A layer of raw elemental energy forms around you. You shift the focus of the surrounding energies into fire. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

>spell active You currently have the following active spells: Elemental Defense I ................ 0:43:15 Elemental Defense II ............... 0:43:15 Elemental Defense III .............. 0:43:15 Elemental Targeting ................ 0:43:15 Elemental Barrier .................. 0:43:15 Thurfel's Ward ..................... 1:35:15 Elemental Deflection ............... 1:35:15 Elemental Bias ..................... 1:35:15 Strength ........................... 1:35:15 Elemental Focus .................... 1:35:15 Stone Skin ......................... 1:59:55 Haste .............................. 1:08:15 Temporal Reversion ................. 1:35:15 Prismatic Guard .................... 1:09:15 Mass Blur .......................... 1:09:15 Melgorehn's Aura ................... 1:09:15

Also, can we get a detailed table for the earth lore aspect as with the other elements? The numbers from the seed 3 summation chart don't work out to superbly, unless the critical padding page on the Wiki is incorrect. Thanks!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2236
Author: DOUG
Date: on 11/04/2016 04:19 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


Tease! It's still Stone Skin. :P (Kinda.)

prep 520
You recite a series of mystical phrases while raising your hands, invoking Stone Skin...
Your spell is ready.
>cast water
You gesture.
A layer of raw elemental energy forms around you.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2237
Author: GS4-VIDUUS
Date: on 11/04/2016 04:41 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


>>Are we sure it's live though? The messaging seems a mix of both. 

The spell and it's effects are live, but I have a little additional work to get the prep messaging updated appropriately, will be done shortly.

>>Also, can we get a detailed table for the earth lore aspect as with the other elements? The numbers from the seed 3 summation chart don't work out to superbly, unless the critical padding page on the Wiki is incorrect. 

Afraid that's as detailed as I can get at the moment, the superbly comment is correct, but did include enhancives to match the other statements if that helps.

Viduus



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2238
Author: DOUG
Date: on 11/04/2016 04:45 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


Just a brief update.

From "first cast" of 520 with CAST <ELEMENT>

Fire - works Earth - works Air - works Lightning - works Water - only works if you cast an element other than water first, then cast again with water (so two casts required to get to water).

Spell Active shows Stone Skin (as per LadyFluer's post)

And after casting it up, when stopping (to continue testing)

>>>stop 520 >>With a moment's concentration, you terminate the Stone Skin spell. >>The layer of stone surrounding you crumbles away.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2239
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 11/04/2016 04:49 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


>Afraid that's as detailed as I can get at the moment, the superbly comment is correct, but did include enhancives to match the other statements if that helps.

250 ranks at seed 3 summation = +20 or upper end of masterfully according to the Wiki, so something must be incorrect somewhere or I'm not understanding it. Still very interesting though!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2240
Author: GS4-VIDUUS
Date: on 11/04/2016 04:54 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


250 ranks at seed 3 summation = +20 or upper end of masterfully according to the Wiki, so something must be incorrect somewhere or I'm not understanding it. Still very interesting though! 


You're forgetting the base padding for the stunned effect, before lore training is considered in the calcs.

Viduus



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2242
Author: GS4-VIDUUS
Date: on 11/04/2016 05:00 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


>>I understand if you can't give more specific information, but the Wiki critical padding table lists superbly as 21-25 points and phenomenal as 31-35, so with an exactly 10 point difference even at the minimum thresholds for each, the base padding is already included in this statement. 

I see your confusion.  There's a base benefit for the spell, a base benefit for the stunned effect, and a lore benefit for earth lore.

I'll see about trying to make it more clear once I've stomped these issues being reported.

Viduus



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2243
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 11/04/2016 05:01 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


Never mind, I understand it now. Thanks!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2245
Author: DOUG
Date: on 11/04/2016 05:06 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


Heh. Nice.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2247
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 11/04/2016 05:13 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


I removed it in case you want people to figure this out on their own, but this is very nice. Thanks!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2248
Author: MEKK1
Date: on 11/04/2016 05:13 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


Looks pretty good, and a SUPER thank you for updating the wiki!

http://i.imgur.com/lsWPzG9.gif

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2249
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 11/04/2016 05:27 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


If you get a chance, is it possible to set INCANT settings for the elemental aspect so it defaults to a particular aspect with mana spellup? Thanks!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2250
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 11/04/2016 05:33 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


Thanks also for the ability to get a base benefit for each elemental aspect before lore bonuses are applied. This is greatly appreciated and finally the correct direction for things to be moving.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2251
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 11/04/2016 06:07 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


This looks like a pretty awesome and fun spell.

-- Robert

A powerful whirlpool is suddenly overtaken by a windy vortex!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2252
Author: BORENJ2
Date: on 11/04/2016 07:13 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


Thank you, it is wonderful and a great addition! Kudos to all :)

- Whill

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2254
Author: GS4-VIDUUS
Date: on 11/04/2016 07:15 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


>>>stop 520 >>With a moment's concentration, you terminate the Stone Skin spell. >>The layer of stone surrounding you crumbles away.

Fixed.

>>Water - only works if you cast an element other than water first, then cast again with water (so two casts required to get to water).

>>Doug

I'm having trouble replicating this issue. Is it still an issue for you? If so can you consistently cause it, or is it random?

As a side note I'm aware of the issue with spell preps, mnemonics, and spell active messaging, and have a fix for it, but I can't push it just yet. The description shouldn't impact the function of the spell - aside from being able to use the new mnemonic.

Viduus

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2255
Author: GS4-VIDUUS
Date: on 11/04/2016 07:17 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


>>If you get a chance, is it possible to set INCANT settings for the elemental aspect so it defaults to a particular aspect with mana spellup? Thanks!

Once I'm certain the core functionality is working as intended I'll circle back to this to see what can be done.

Viduus

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2256
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 11/04/2016 07:25 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


>Once I'm certain the core functionality is working as intended I'll circle back to this to see what can be done.

Thanks! Once the other messaging is updated, will there be a way to determine which elemental aspect we've chosen in case we forget?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2257
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 11/04/2016 07:38 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


here's another:

>imbed 520 in rod using raise for 4 charges You concentrate on funneling your power into the rod.

You feel that you have successfully placed 4 charges of the Stone Skin spell into it.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2258
Author: DOUG
Date: on 11/04/2016 07:44 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


>>I'm having trouble replicating this issue. Is it still an issue for you? If so can you consistently cause it, or is it random?

Wasn't at the time, could reproduce it consistently. But. . . now I can't! I'll keep an eye on it though. And I like the random incant too. ;)

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2259
Author: TANDL
Date: on 11/04/2016 07:47 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


So just to be perfectly clear the description says the padding applies to physical attacks. Is it safe to assume that an all inclusive list of those is weapon swings, CMANs, and SMR style attacks that are physical in nature?

Tal, player of.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2260
Author: DRUMPEL
Date: on 11/04/2016 08:15 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


5 points of padding from the initial cast. +3 points for having 65 MjE spell ranks. +5 or +6 points for having SWCP armor

I will have 13-14 points of crit padding when I cast the spell. Awesome.

If I happen to get stunned: +13 points for having 130 ranks EL:E Total of 26-27 points of crit padding.

That's actually pretty cool. I'll have to see how things work out from this point on. Nice update from what I see.

-Drumpel

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2261
Author: GS4-VIDUUS
Date: on 11/04/2016 08:24 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


All messaging related references to stone skin should now be gone, also the new prep MAGEARMOR should now work. If you continue to see stone skin references then let me know.

>>So just to be perfectly clear the description says the padding applies to physical attacks... 

You should find yourself protected from most attacks while stunned, assuming you have the earth aspect active.  There's explicit messaging when the earth aspect kicks in to protect you so it'll be obvious when it's there and obvious when it's missing, I'll leave it as a exercise to discover what it looks like.

If you find you're not covered by an attack and it seems like it should be something covered, then let me know.

Viduus



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2262
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 11/04/2016 08:32 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


520 should be excluded from use with 420 since 220 also cannot be imbedded/blessed as a Major circle spell.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2263
Author: KITHUS
Date: on 11/05/2016 08:18 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


520 should be excluded from use with 420 since 220 also cannot be imbedded/blessed as a Major circle spell.

There is zero reason to exclude it. The benefits for non-native casters is capped at the addition of light crit padding with no elemental benefits. This allows us to imbed something for others that is potentially useful. I was thrilled to discover I could provide an additional service. Please DO NOT remove this from imbed.

Keith/Brinret/Shiun

Keith is correct

Wyrom, APM

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Help%20for%20Players/Policy%20Discussions/view/246

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2264
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 11/05/2016 08:22 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


There is absolutely a reason to exclude it because 220 is excluded. I wish all wizard spells would stop being given away like water to every other profession. Wizards can give everything away but are much more limited in what they can get from other pure professions as it is, so there is zero need to further this imbalance.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2265
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 11/05/2016 08:50 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


>There is zero reason to exclude it. The benefits for non-native casters is capped at the addition of light crit padding with no elemental benefits. This allows us to imbed something for others that is potentially useful. I was thrilled to discover I could provide an additional service. Please DO NOT remove this from imbed.

I would buy this argument if wizard spells weren't 42378423x more readily available to other classes than other classes' spells are available to us.

>There is absolutely a reason to exclude it because 220 is excluded. I wish all wizard spells would stop being given away like water to every other profession. Wizards can give everything away but are much more limited in what they can get from other pure professions as it is, so there is zero need to further this imbalance.

^ That.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2266
Author: DOUG
Date: on 11/05/2016 09:06 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


>>I'm having trouble replicating this issue.

Sent a log - seeing how I can best recreate the problem.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2267
Author: KITHUS
Date: on 11/05/2016 09:20 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


I'd think you should make an argument that 200s spells should be more available in holy receptacle instead of making 520 inaccessible.

Keith/Brinret/Shiun

Keith is correct

Wyrom, APM

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Help%20for%20Players/Policy%20Discussions/view/246

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2268
Author: NEWHALLJ
Date: on 11/05/2016 09:20 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


>520 should be excluded from use with 420 since 220 also cannot be imbedded/blessed as a Major circle spell.


I thought this was a joke until I saw the responses. While I get some of the other reasons, the comparison to 220 is silly. No one who can normally cast 220 can cast Magic Item Create. It takes extreme efforts to imbed anything from that whole circle. By that logic, they should make 501 thru 519 not able to be imbedded, too.

The spells do completely different things. For example, 219 is not imbeddible, but 519 is. They just have the same last 2 numbers. Mage Armor is already specifically balanced for "non-native" casters.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2269
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 11/05/2016 09:23 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


When referencing spiritual spells, all the exclusions are via 325, which is the cleric's version of 420. So it doesn't take extreme effort at all and it's 100% comparable.

I'm still waiting for Curse of the Star then, since we're in favor of sharing everything. Meanwhile, I'd prefer wizard spells to stop being catered to bot uses.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2270
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 11/05/2016 09:28 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


>I'd think you should make an argument that 200s spells should be more available in holy receptacle instead of making 520 inaccessible.

I'd never argue for this as I believe every profession should be treated less as bots instead of requiring every character to eventually need every spell to get by again, regressing to GS3 levels of accessibility.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2271
Author: DOUG
Date: on 11/05/2016 10:19 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


FYI - this felt like 2 seconds, not 2 rounds. Might actually have been 1 round (time dialation in combat), but no way it was two.

A half-elven marauder springs from the shadows and strikes at you! [Roll result: 146 (open d100: 45)] A half-elven marauder delivers a blow to your head with his longsword! 

 ...8 damage!

Roundtime changed to 2 seconds. 

 You are stunned!
 You are dazed!

Roundtime: 5 sec. > You are still stunned. > The raw elemental energy surrounding you suddenly sparks with electricity. Sparks surrounding you arc out and hit a grizzly bear, stunning him! Sparks surrounding you arc out and hit an arctic wolverine, with no effect. Sparks surrounding you arc out and hit an arctic wolverine, stunning him! Sparks surrounding you arc out and hit a halfling highwayman, stunning him! Sparks surrounding you arc out and hit a half-elven marauder, stunning him! > A caribou lopes in! >l [Northern Mountains, Timberline] You notice a caribou, a caribou (dead), a grizzly bear (stunned), an arctic wolverine (stunned), an arctic wolverine (stunned), a halfling highwayman (stunned) and a half-elven marauder (stunned). Obvious paths: southeast, southwest > A halfling highwayman stands there, dazed and confused. > A caribou rears back and kicks her front hooves at a half-elven marauder! Reeling and staggering, the half-elven marauder barely blocks the attack with his reinforced shield! > [Roll result: 97 (open d100: 81)] A halfling highwayman feints to the left, and you almost buy the ruse, but you recover just in time.


Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2272
Author: PFLATS
Date: on 11/05/2016 10:30 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


>I thought this was a joke until I saw the responses. While I get some of the other reasons, the comparison to 220 is silly. No one who can normally cast 220 can cast Magic Item Create. It takes extreme efforts to imbed anything from that whole circle. By that logic, they should make 501 thru 519 not able to be imbedded, too.

The 200s circle is definitely imbedible: Clerics can imbed, but only into orb gems, not magic items.

https://gswiki.play.net/Holy_Receptacle_(325)#Spell_Imbedding

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2273
Author: PFLATS
Date: on 11/05/2016 11:00 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


Also, I'm trying to clean up the wiki a bit to clarify things, especially on the Fire Aspect side.

>Obtaining 15 ranks in fire will grant a +20 stance bonus, allowing the mage to remain in advanced stance while obtaining all benefits of offensive. The maximum benefit (base+bonus) of +36 is obtained at 231 fire ranks.

Shouldn't that be a -20/-36 stance bonus, or at least an unsigned stance bonus of 20/36 for clarity?

Everywhere else, defensive stance is reported as 100%, offensive as 0%, even though the PARRY verb is long gone.

When you channel a spell, your stance goes from, say, 40% to 4% for that cast.

To me, I could see that as a -36 bonus or a 36 bonus, but not a +36 bonus. A negative bonus is confusing for some people who haven't had the pleasure of dealing with THAC0, so I'd probably want to go with an unsigned 36 bonus.

Thoughts?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2274
Author: VEYTHORNE
Date: on 11/05/2016 11:12 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


Would it be possible to add a cooldown to spell active/active spells for the water aspect dispel block?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2275
Author: KITHUS
Date: on 11/05/2016 11:25 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


I understand you're trying to frame this argument as pro vs anti bot but that is a fallacious argument. Even if someone has a wizard that is not their main that does not make them a bot. Is your sorcerer a bot because you consider your wizard your main? Even an extreme example like my wizard who has never hunted (I think I will be changing this with the enchant changes) is not a bot. He is a fully fleshed out character with a recognizable personality that prefers to create things rather than destroy. He's a master forger and enchanter, as well as a wizard guild master and a pretty solid PC player. Just because his play style isn't one you would prefer does not make him a bot.

You are completely ignoring those who want to have more to offer others in this multi-player game. Many of us love having utility we can provide to other players. In this case it's self-cast so other players have to actually train MIU, probably purchase an imbedded item to have access to it and it won't be anywhere near as strong as what wizards get for themselves. My main is a ranger and I would love to have 620 (what I call the empty spell slot) be more usable and more desired by other players. I would prefer to see more spells allowed to be imbedded with 325 as well. Light crit padding added on to what you already have is not going to make or break anyone but hopefully it's enough that some people will seek it out.

Keith/Brinret/Shiun

Keith is correct

Wyrom, APM

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Help%20for%20Players/Policy%20Discussions/view/246

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2276
Author: VEYTHORNE
Date: on 11/05/2016 12:03 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


Is this working as intended? The water ability was not within the cooldown/recovery period. On a previous hunt, it blocked the dispel providing this message: The raw elemental energy surrounding you takes on a watery look as it absorbs the magic.

In the following dispel, it only attempts to absorb the magic.


An Ithzir seer fades into view! An Ithzir seer suddenly opens her eyes and stares directly at you!

A pale, flickering nimbus coalesces around you, then vanishes in a brilliant flash!

You feel the unnatural surge of necrotic power wane away. The raw elemental energy surrounding you takes on a watery look as it attempts to absorb the magic. You feel the aura of confidence leave you. The powerful look leaves you. The air about you stops shimmering.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2277
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 11/05/2016 12:09 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


>Is this working as intended? The water ability was not within the cooldown/recovery period. On a previous hunt, it blocked the dispel providing this message: The raw elemental energy surrounding you takes on a watery look as it absorbs the magic.

>In the following dispel, it only attempts to absorb the magic.


>An Ithzir seer fades into view! >An Ithzir seer suddenly opens her eyes and stares directly at you!

>A pale, flickering nimbus coalesces around you, then vanishes in a brilliant flash!

>You feel the unnatural surge of necrotic power wane away. >The raw elemental energy surrounding you takes on a watery look as it attempts to absorb the magic. >You feel the aura of confidence leave you. >The powerful look leaves you. >The air about you stops shimmering.

I think the water thing only absorbs one spell. So if something casts mass dispel it's only going to prevent one spell from being dispelled but the rest will still drop.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2278
Author: VEYTHORNE
Date: on 11/05/2016 12:16 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


>I think the water thing only absorbs one spell. So if something casts mass dispel it's only going to prevent one spell from being dispelled but the rest will still drop. ~ Methais

No, it blocks 1 dispel attempt.


Per the release statement and GS wiki:

Water Aspect Focusing on water will allow a mage to negate dispelling attacks. The base benefit of this aspect is the negation of one dispel every 30 seconds.

Training in Elemental Lore, Water will reduce the 30 second cooldown one additional second based on seed 1 summation of ranks. The maximum benefit of this aspect is a 21 second reduction, to a minimum of 9 seconds, obtained at 231 water lore bonus.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2279
Author: DOUG
Date: on 11/05/2016 12:16 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


>>So if something casts mass dispel it's only going to prevent one spell from being dispelled but the rest will still drop.


NooOOOOoOOoO!

Please?

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2282
Author: VEYTHORNE
Date: on 11/05/2016 12:27 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


It blocks the dispel attempt, not a certain number of spells.


An Ithzir seer fades into view! An Ithzir seer suddenly opens his eyes and stares directly at you!

A pale, flickering nimbus coalesces around you, then vanishes in a brilliant flash!

The raw elemental energy surrounding you takes on a watery look as it absorbs the magic.


I posted because after the first time it blocked the dispel attempt, it failed to block an attempt and provided a different message during the next hunt.

There is either a bug in the cooldown/recovery period. Or it is using borrowed code from 319 and it expects us to recast the spell to refresh the ability.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2283
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 11/05/2016 01:30 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


I always read 1 dispel to mean 1 actual dispel, not one dispel attempt. I'm not sure why anyone would expect otherwise. It's basically 1701 layered on top.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2284
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 11/05/2016 01:37 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


Any character that provides utility without needing to be present during combat situations, whether they are someone's main or has their own personality or whatever, by definition, is a bot.

I'm not against sharing spells. I'm against giving away all wizard spells to all and sundry without requiring a wizard to be present as part of the group in hunting. Clerics are protected via the way 307/310 are set up, empaths with their lore-based major spiritual spells that have group effects, etc. Most sorcerer spells are of a unique nature such that they can't be shared at all (712, Curse of the Star). Profession imbalance occurs when all other pures can access all of a wizard's best spells without even requiring the presence of a wizard in combat, while a wizard is afforded the benefit of none of the best of what the other pures have even if those characters are taken along for the hunt.

Sorcerers can access nearly every spell except a small handful with 714. Clerics and empaths can do the same via 208. Wizards are the only ones left out in the cold, and yet, all of a wizard's spells continues to be widely accessible to all.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2285
Author: VEYTHORNE
Date: on 11/05/2016 01:39 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


>That seems to be a very interesting 'limit' to the spell's capabilities. >It only dropped non-elemental spells. Presuming you had elemental spells, they survived. >It's entirely possible that this effect only takes on elemental dispel attempts. >Doug

I believe the spell being cast is 230, which will target spiritual spells first, and then go for elemental spells. I always have spiritual spells active, so it's not going to hit my elemental spells.


>I always read 1 dispel to mean 1 actual dispel, not one dispel attempt. I'm not sure why anyone would expect otherwise. It's basically 1701 layered on top. >LadyFleur

>https://gswiki.play.net/Mage_Armor_(520) >Water Aspect >Focusing on water will allow a mage to negate dispelling attacks.

It specifically says on the gswiki, negate dispel attack. I see this as the wizard version of spell 319, which blocks all types of attacks.

1701 is simply the first spell to be dispelled by a dispel attack. It doesn't negate the dispel attack in any way.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2286
Author: VEYTHORNE
Date: on 11/05/2016 01:46 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


For some reason, 520 is taking 99 mana to cast.


>mana 

   Maximum Mana Points: 307
 Remaining Mana Points: 109

  Mana gained off node: 56
   Mana gained on node: 86

 Mana Control abilities:
   MANA PULSE   - Manually invoke a mana pulse to gain mana as if you were off a node.
   MANA SPELLUP - Instantly cast all of your defensive spells.

   You have used the MANA SPELLUP ability 0 out of 4 times for today.

>prep 520 Mana surges through you in a brilliant display of silvery motes which skitter across your skin as you prepare Mage Armor... Your spell is ready.

>cast water You gesture. A layer of raw elemental energy forms around you. You shift the focus of the surrounding energies into water. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

>mana 

   Maximum Mana Points: 307
 Remaining Mana Points: 10



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2287
Author: ASHRAAM
Date: on 11/05/2016 04:08 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


>>I'm not against sharing spells. I'm against giving away all wizard spells to all and sundry without requiring a wizard to be present as part of the group in hunting.

This spell seems a lot less like 220 and a lot more like 319, which I believe can be imbedded into gems with 325. Similar to 319, this spell has substantially reduced value for non-native casters. They cannot cast it with the elemental trigger because it has to be activated via a verb, and not via the cast method. It will only ever provide someone with "Light Critical Padding", which is likely +1 padding. That's basically useless in a similar way that a non-cleric using 319 gets next to no benefit against like-level foes because they will never have sufficient Cleric CS to make that spell activate reliably.

I don't see any reason for the developers to put any effort into removing this spell from the list of spells that can be imbedded into magic items via 420. Nor any reason to argue against it being "shared" due to the massively diminished power of the spell when cast via any other means than having trained MjE.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2288
Author: BORENJ2
Date: on 11/05/2016 04:10 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


Definitely agree with Fleur on this. Shoot, two of our utility spells can be obtained from a daily login boost (along with being fairly common drops).

In my opinion, if there's a middle ground for wanting it to be utility based (I'm not for it) we could go the route of other spells and have a greatly reduced duration or require the wizard to be grouped for the spell to stay up.

Let's stop giving every trick in our bags away.

- Whill

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2289
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 11/05/2016 06:14 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


It literally requires zero effort for Dev to put 520 on a blocked imbed list, the way they did with 215 and all the other exclusions. It's the principle of giving away level 20 spells to all and sundry that is the issue here.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2290
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 11/05/2016 07:06 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


>or require the wizard to be grouped for the spell to stay up

Do this, but increase the padding the group gets.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2291
Author: OM1E5GA
Date: on 11/05/2016 09:16 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


'

All 714 does is make scrolls last longer. Any character can train in Arcane Symbols and have access to all the same spells... including 208 (there's even a scroll in the Landing pawnshop with 208 on it as I type this).

Speaking of 208, in 20 years I've been asked to prep a spell so someone could steal it exactly once (years ago a high level empath stole 318 from my cleric when there were multiple bodies that needed a raise). It might have the potential to be useful if you can ward someone well enough to steal spells from them, but it's certainly not used much.

Starchitin

A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2292
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 11/05/2016 05:45 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


>> Focusing on the Lightning Aspect of this spell will stun all enemies in the room for a short time when the mage becomes stunned.

1) Assuming this only applies to enemies that can normally be stunned. Correct?

2) Is there a lightning component that might have additional adverse effects in wet rooms?

3) Is this player friendly or are non-grouped PCs considered enemies?

More general question:

4) Do critters that can cast this spell have the ability to cast an elemental version or do they simply cast the base version of the spell?

-- Robert

A powerful whirlpool is suddenly overtaken by a windy vortex!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2293
Author: OM1E5GA
Date: on 11/05/2016 07:30 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


I move for this spell to replace 725 instead.

Starchitin

A severed gnomish hand crawls in on its fingertips and makes a rude gesture before quickly decaying and rotting into dust. A gust of wind quickly scatters the dust.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2294
Author: ROLFARD
Date: on 11/05/2016 07:39 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


Mage Armor (520) does NOT activate on mana spellup.


Also, regarding the messaging for Mass Blur (911) when using mana spellup, I believe the invisibility messaging is appropriate when noone is seeing you cast any individual spells. In effect, mana spellup is an invisible spellup!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2295
Author: DRUMPEL
Date: on 11/05/2016 08:15 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


>Mage Armor (520) does NOT activate on mana spellup.

Either they fixed it or it is working - at least for me. I STOPped 520 and then did a mana spellup.

>stop 520 With a moment's concentration, you terminate the Mage Armor spell. The layer of raw elemental energy surrounding you dissipates.

>mana spellup With your advanced understanding of elemental mana, you transcend the normal limitations of magic and release upon yourself a flurry of abjurations...

A silvery luminescence surrounds you. A bright luminescence surrounds you. A brilliant luminescence surrounds you. You are filled with a sense of great confidence. Your skin tingles for a moment and you feel more secure. Glowing specks of dark brown energy begin to spin around you. You are surrounded by a shimmering field of energy. You feel more magically aware. You feel much stronger. You bristle with energy. 

A layer of raw elemental energy forms around you. 
You shift the focus of the surrounding energies into earth.

The world stutters around you for a moment, then resumes its slower speed. For a moment, everything you hear and see echoes weirdly around you, but then everything seems normal again. Your personal temporal reality has been slightly offset from the true flow of time. Multicolored rays shoot out of your body and flow into the shimmering sphere around you. If you were visible, your form would have blurred. A luminescent aura begins to swirl around you. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

-Drumpel

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2296
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 11/05/2016 12:28 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


is there a point to having a Major Elemental Circle folder at this point?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2297
Author: VEYTHORNE
Date: on 11/05/2016 12:47 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


More strange behavior with Ithzir seers.

Just as you BLANK, the Ithzir seer...

So it faded in with a dispel attempt, and instantly vanished due to something. I assume the 520 water ability. But the dispel wasn't blocked. And the dispel still took 6 spells even though the seer was no longer in the room.


An Ithzir seer fades into view! An Ithzir seer suddenly opens her eyes and stares directly at you!

A pale, flickering nimbus coalesces around you, then vanishes in a brilliant flash!

Just as you , the Ithzir seer shimmers and fades away, leaving you gesturing at nothingness! The raw elemental energy surrounding you takes on a watery look as it attempts to absorb the magic. Your boosted confidence and fearlessness fade. You feel the unnatural surge of necrotic power wane away. The light blue glow leaves you. You feel the aura of confidence leave you. The misty halo fades from you.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2299
Author: DOUG
Date: on 11/05/2016 01:07 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


That seems to be a very interesting 'limit' to the spell's capabilities.

It only dropped non-elemental spells. Presuming you had elemental spells, they survived.

It's entirely possible that this effect only takes on elemental dispel attempts.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2300
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 11/05/2016 02:23 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


>is there a point to having a Major Elemental Circle folder at this point?

Yes.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2301
Author: DEANSMITH
Date: on 11/05/2016 03:11 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


Excellent spell!

A few questions:

Water - When (PC) Spirit or Elemental Dispel are absorbed, it will still drain mana. Intended?

Water / Lightning - These both failed a few times in like level scenarios for me (in the test realm). What are the success factors of the absorb/stun effects? Level based? Fumble chance?

Overall, I think the implementation of this spell is amazing. I'd rank the usefulness of the elemental effects as follows:

1) Earth - This is just bonkers for war mage and pure mage alike. 2) Air - I will have this up 24/7 at every merchant event from now on. 3) Fire - I really wish that this could have let us cast from Neutral. That said, I may learn Combat Mastery to supplement this. 4/5) Lightning/Water - The fact that these two have a chance to fail has them below all other effects for me.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2302
Author: SJOSEPH
Date: on 11/05/2016 04:04 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


I don't think the water part of 520 is working, I was in the bowels focused on water and an Elder still stripped 4 spells away on it's first cast.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2303
Author: DEANSMITH
Date: on 11/05/2016 04:18 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


>I don't think the water part of 520 is working, I was in the bowels focused on water and an Elder still stripped 4 spells away on it's first cast.

From what I can tell, the dispel absorption isn't guaranteed. There are two results:

SUCCESS == The raw elemental energy surrounding you takes on a watery look as it absorbs the magic. FAILURE == The raw elemental energy surrounding you takes on a watery look as it attempts to absorb the magic.

Failing to absorb the magic also seems to start the cooldown.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2304
Author: VEYTHORNE
Date: on 11/05/2016 04:27 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


>From what I can tell, the dispel absorption isn't guaranteed. There are two results: >SUCCESS == The raw elemental energy surrounding you takes on a watery look as it absorbs the magic. >FAILURE == The raw elemental energy surrounding you takes on a watery look as it attempts to absorb the magic. >Failing to absorb the magic also seems to start the cooldown.

I believe it's a bug.

I was able to block a dispel attack once, and it has failed every time afterwards.

The gswiki also mentions nothing about it being random. It says that you can negate one dispel attack every 30 seconds (base), and every 9 seconds with 231 water lore ranks.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2305
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 11/06/2016 09:22 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


>So when can we get a reduction of non-self cast power and/or availability to mobility, dauntless, heroism, prayer, and champions might?

The same day these professions are willing to share 10 out of 12 core utility/defensive spells in their Major and Profession circles with no restrictions. Non-wizards never needed 520, were never intended to need 520, and should advocate for their own 520 equivalent spell if that is what they want instead of trying to get access to something never intended to be theirs.

All spell casting professions are intended to share some spells, but not all.

This doesn't make things remotely equal, because 10 out of 12 of a wizard's core defensive/utility spells can still be accessed by all and sundry on a regular basis via other-cast or imbeds (the easiest outside source of self-cast spells vs. relying on treasure system drops or orb gems). This is, however, a long overdue step in the right direction.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2306
Author: CAVEMANIAC
Date: on 11/05/2016 06:02 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


Its probably not random but likely similar to how 319 and 716 are implemented with a hidden roll of some sort.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2307
Author: ALUVIUS
Date: on 11/05/2016 06:06 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


I love that the spell has base elemental effects instead of requiring attunement and/or a certain number of ranks in a lore in order to have any effect. More like this and thanks!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2308
Author: GS4-VIDUUS
Date: on 11/05/2016 06:33 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


SUCCESS == The raw elemental energy surrounding you takes on a watery look as it absorbs the magic. FAILURE == The raw elemental energy surrounding you takes on a watery look as it attempts to absorb the magic. 


I didn't mean to imply there was a guaranteed result on the water and lightning aspects of 520 on the wiki.  They are subject to a hidden roll.  You have a really high chance of being successful, but you will occasionally fail to have those effects trigger as they are part of combat and do factor a set of criteria into success.  So, you probably won't prevent that level 200 beast from dispelling you, and you probably won't be able to stun it with a retaliation strike.

Viduus



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2309
Author: VEYTHORNE
Date: on 11/05/2016 06:42 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


> I didn't mean to imply there was a guaranteed result on the water and lightning aspects of 520 on the wiki. They are subject to a hidden roll. You have a really high chance of being successful, but you will occasionally fail to have those effects trigger as they are part of combat and do factor a set of criteria into success. So, you probably won't prevent that level 200 beast from dispelling you, and you probably won't be able to stun it with a retaliation strike. >Viduus

That's pretty disappointing. Preventing the dispel has only happened once that I've seen so far. Are you going to share what goes into the success portion?


Dispel is a significant problem for a class that relies on spells for defense. Being able to prevent a dispel attack every 30 seconds was a huge benefit. It has failed to prevent the dispel attack 5/6 times during my use. I've noticed the other benefits, specifically fire and air, aren't random, why are the other lore effects random?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2310
Author: ALLENM20
Date: on 11/05/2016 06:52 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


Without a guaranteed result for water and lightning I think you're guaranteeing they will be rarely used.


As I gaze over the horizon, the wind tugs at my cloak and whispers, "Adventure" in my ear.

AIM: Kaight (Matt) GS4

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2311
Author: GS4-VIDUUS
Date: on 11/05/2016 07:05 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


>>That's pretty disappointing. Preventing the dispel has only happened once that I've seen so far. Are you going to share what goes into the success portion? 


The situation you described at first glance seems like it could have merit for being a bug.  Assuming the creatures doing it aren't special, you aren't severely over-hunting (20+ levels), and a few other factors you should be blocking dispels more often than you reported.

I was planning on looking in on you after I cleared out some issues, to see if it's just bad luck, the formula needs tweaking, or something else is going on. 

Viduus



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2312
Author: GS4-VIDUUS
Date: on 11/05/2016 07:12 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


In other news... 

Mage armor is no longer imbeddable.  Mage armor is considered a signature defense spell of mage class and tailored specifically to them.  As such, it will have reduced availability moving forward.

Viduus



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2313
Author: RAGGLER
Date: on 11/05/2016 07:25 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


This spell is definitely looking like a great new addition, so a big thanks to everyone involved! I also love that each lore based effect can be accessed regardless of training, and only sees improvement from lore training. This is definitely the direction that many of our spells should go.

Just out of curiousity, and maybe it's known but I've never heard, but is there a hard cap on the amount of padding one could achieve? It looks like a fully decked out earth mage could potentially achieve a base 10 points with an additional 26 points while stunned, for a total of 36 points of padding while stunned with 250 earth lore ranks. Throw some HCP armor and maybe sunfist into the mix, and you're suddenly sitting at 56 points of padding, which is currently off the charts.


Isle Snack Muncher

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2314
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 11/05/2016 07:38 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


>Mage armor is no longer imbeddable. Mage armor is considered a signature defense spell of mage class and tailored specifically to them. As such, it will have reduced availability moving forward.

Thank you very much for this update.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2315
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 11/05/2016 07:55 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


It would be helpful if whoever's editing the Wiki doesn't overwrite the accurate GM information with inaccurate data. The earth lore table, in particular, is completely incorrect.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2317
Author: MIGHTONS1
Date: on 11/05/2016 08:23 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


One tiny bug:

Changing the aspect to or from air doesn't update the Stormfront encumbrance bar to reflect your changed encumbrance level. The bar stays where it was until you do something that involves an encumbrance check, like standing up or typing "encumbrance".

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2318
Author: GS4-VIDUUS
Date: on 11/05/2016 08:27 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


Changing the aspect to or from air doesn't update the Stormfront encumbrance bar to reflect your changed encumbrance level. The bar stays where it was until you do something that involves an encumbrance check, like standing up or typing "encumbrance". 


I'll look into it.

Viduus



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2319
Author: GS4-VIDUUS
Date: on 11/05/2016 09:22 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


I have to say that after spending a good chunk of my day Friday struggling to put together a basic wiki page that I have a new appreciation for the work the authors do on it. It seems like a labor of love to keep it visually appealing, accurate, and consistent with the rest of the site.

I was actually hoping that someone would clean up my page a bit. If some of the information is changed in the process of improving it, it's not a huge deal to go back and correct any inaccuracies.

I'll plan to review it once the work in progress is removed, so no need to panic over it changing.

Viduus

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2320
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 11/05/2016 09:38 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


As nice as this bug is, it seems that the fire aspect is currently allowing the stance benefits to apply regardless of CHANNEL status.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2321
Author: DRUMPEL
Date: on 11/05/2016 10:26 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


>Changing the aspect to or from air doesn't update the Stormfront encumbrance bar to reflect your changed encumbrance level. The bar stays where it was until you do something that involves an encumbrance check, like standing up or typing "encumbrance".

I really disliked Stormfront when it first released and I thought the Wizard front end was so awesome! Fast forward a bit and I use Stormfront now and I have for years.....why didn't anyone tell me they had an encumbrance bar on it? Seriously....what the heck?

Now I have it up on all my characters! Nice!

-Drumpel

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2322
Author: TANDL
Date: on 11/05/2016 11:35 PM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


Small thing to note with the wiki, when creating or editing pages it's often a huge time saver to grab templates off of other pages and then edit them to the correct values. Getting it all up to snuff (and formatted to where it's fit to be viewed) can take some time. Past that we do sometimes have people working to complete pages without a thorough understandings of whatever specific systems are included. Patience please.

This particular page isn't something I've contributed to meaningfully, but I've had my hand in enough of them to realize how much effort it can take.

Tal.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2323
Author: SJOSEPH1
Date: on 11/06/2016 12:09 AM PDT
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


Is the water focused version working as intended? I have 93 ranks of water lore on this mage, I had another mage of equal level dispel me and this is what happened.


> xxxxxx intones a phrase of elemental power while raising her hands... J> xxxxxx gestures at you.

A shifting, prismatic aura coalesces around you, then vanishes in a brilliant flash!

The raw elemental energy surrounding you takes on a watery look as it attempts to absorb the magic. The glowing specks of energy surrounding you suddenly shoot off in all directions, then quickly fade away. You notice that things have returned to their normal speed. The layer of raw elemental energy surrounding you dissipates. You feel less confident than before. J> The watery look of the raw elemental energy surrounding you fades.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2324
Author: DEANSMITH
Date: on 11/06/2016 02:31 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


A shifting, prismatic aura coalesces around you, then vanishes in a brilliant flash!
The raw elemental energy surrounding you takes on a watery look as it attempts to absorb the magic.
The glowing specks of energy surrounding you suddenly shoot off in all directions, then quickly fade away.
You notice that things have returned to their normal speed.
The layer of raw elemental energy surrounding you dissipates.
You feel less confident than before.
J>
The watery look of the raw elemental energy surrounding you fades.

This was a failed attempt at blocking the dispel, indicated by the messaging. It could probably be written to be a little more clear that it was a failure though.

I can understand why it the effect isn't guaranteed, but would it be possible to have failed absorption attempts NOT trigger the cooldown?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2325
Author: SJOSEPH1
Date: on 11/06/2016 03:27 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


The issue was that the mage doing the dispelling was equal level and not a huge level gap. Also I'm yet to have this block a dispel from ANY monster.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2326
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 11/06/2016 11:57 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


>You'll likely get 98% AS from Forward stance with 231 Fire vs 90% with 15. That's a big defensive boost for a minor offensive hit.

I don't consider a 40 point offensive hit minor at all. That's half of a maximum enhancive boost negated right there just for defense.

>I think the greatest difference in offensive usefulness for Fire Aspect will come when you're channeling in guarded.

I agree with this, but this is currently of minimal value given 519 is almost equally ineffective even when channeled in offensive with 2 open-hands now vs. any other offensive method of attack.

>tables

I'm confused where in the fire lore setup, you have room for combat mastery?

>It's not about the DS. It's about everything but the DS, and the stuff that really matters: evade, parry, (and block if you're a shield/staff post-cap build) maneuver defense, and CML defense all also get boosts in higher stances.

In my view, if you're looking for offensive benefits in a less than offensive stance, you're doing it primarily for the DS benefits.

>Rank 5 of Cunning Defense is 12 CM Points for +3 CML defense. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I'd be absolutely blown away if a 10% stance change didn't give a 1x CM postcap wizard more than 3 CML defense. (And the increase will only increase further with enhancives.)

You can't get more offensive than offensive, so if you're in offensive and have +3 CML defense, you'd still be better off than being in a non-offensive stance, trying to get offensive abilities, and sacrificing those extra +3 CML defense points for Combat Mastery. In other words, those Rank 5 Cunning Defense points come from Cunning Defense or nothing at all. The only reason you'd be in a less than offensive stance and use Combat Mastery to achieve offensive stance benefits is because you want the DS.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2327
Author: GS4-COASE
Date: on 11/05/2016 01:37 AM PDT
Subject: Mage Armor (520) Released!


The major elemental spell 520 - Mage Armor has been released. This spell replaces the previous spell Stone Skin.

Mage Armor manipulates the elemental forces within a wizard's body, forming a layer of elemental energy that shifts with their movements. This self-cast spell provides additional protection from physical attacks in the form of critical padding.

The base amount of padding for native casters is somewhat at 20 Major Elemental ranks, increasing every 15 Major Elemental ranks to a max of heavy padding at 95 ranks.

Note: Non-native casters can only achieve light critical padding with this spell, and elemental aspects are not available to non-native casters. Note: The critical padding provided by this spell and it's aspects stack with other forms of padding. The armor can be further enhanced by focusing on specific elements to further shore up defenses via CAST <Element>. Focusing on an element will produce additional defenses based on lore training in the respective elemental lore.

Focusing on the Fire Aspect of this spell allows a mage to channel his defenses into stronger offensive attacks. Focusing on the Water Aspect of this spell boosts the mage's defenses against dispel attacks. Focusing on the Earth Aspect of this spell will shield the mage in a layer of rock when he becomes stunned. Focusing on the Air Aspect of this spell will allow the mage to carry more. Focusing on the Lightning Aspect of this spell will stun all enemies in the room for a short time when the mage becomes stunned.

More specific details can be found on the wiki at this link https://gswiki.play.net/Mage_Armor_(520)

Credit to goes GameMaster Konacon for working on the code for this release.

Viduus

(Reposting as an announcement)

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2331
Author: GIBESON1
Date: on 11/06/2016 06:19 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


So 520 is signature defensive spell, but its okay to allow 712 to be given out in black ora hearts?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2333
Author: FIREPHOENIX
Date: on 11/06/2016 07:11 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


520 is straight up beast mode.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2334
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 11/06/2016 07:35 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


The light crit padding for non-native casters seemed to be included as part of the spell for imbedding purposes. Non-native casters weren't getting anything close to what the full power of the spell is, just like non-native casters of Cloak of Shadows cannot chant retribution. This seems to be more of an appeasement gesture than a well thought-out change.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2336
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 11/06/2016 08:35 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


Keith/Brinret/Shiun
Well that sucks. The spell already has a significantly reduced effect for other classes. You basically just caved to a vocal minority of high level wizards who complain about every change and also have a huge amount of other professions spells available through items themselves.

The decision to block 520 from imbedding was made before any post on this forum commented on it.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2340
Author: GS4-SLEKEN
Date: on 11/06/2016 09:06 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


Oookay.

Don't attack other posters, don't counter-attack, etc, etc.

Discuss the issues, not the posters.

Move on.

SGM Sleken

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2341
Author: TANDL
Date: on 11/06/2016 09:08 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


So when can we get a reduction of non-self cast power and/or availability to mobility, dauntless, heroism, prayer, and champions might?

We may as well leave the 1000s alone, since a person who follows you around everywhere without speaking or attacking, just mindlessly being a walking spell provider, is apparently not a bot so long as they never leave the group.

Tal, who despite it being physically impossible, hunts self spelled and solo anyway.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2343
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 11/06/2016 09:17 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


>> So when can we get a reduction of non-self cast power and/or availability to mobility, dauntless, heroism, prayer, and champions might?

What about 503, 509, and 911 while we are at it as well?

I'm a bit surprised at the (over) reaction to 520 not being imbeddedible given how horrible the spell was before. I don't see it as taking anything away from anyone from what they had before and the new spell does address some actual issues within the wizard class.

If you feel there are similar issues within other professions that the new 520 addresses then you'd be better off having them addressed through your profession based spells vs. through 520 imbeds anyway.

-- Robert

A powerful whirlpool is suddenly overtaken by a windy vortex!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2344
Author: VEYTHORNE
Date: on 11/06/2016 09:31 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


I'm trying to understand the upset about 520 going self-cast.

Is it because you wanted the light crit padding? Which is most likely 1 point of padding.


It's hard to deny that wizard spells aren't available to non-wizards. 503, 509, 911 are all easily shared. The only spell that cannot be put in an imbed is 913, and now 520. Most of the other self cast spells, 507, 508, and 905 are frequently sold off the shelf in unlimited quantity.

You never see 606, 613 or 617 being sold, or 618 for that matter, even though 618 is available from a ranger friend.

Looking at Ebon Gate, you could buy off the shelf: 501, 503, 507, 508, 509, 511, 512, 905, 911, and 916. That's a total of 10 wizard spells, sold off the shelf, in unlimited quantity. No other profession had so many of their spells available to other professions.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2345
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 11/06/2016 09:34 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


>I'm trying to understand the upset about 520 going self-cast.

for me, it was a 20th level spell that used to be imbeddable, and now it's not. It takes away from imbedding and leads to all of the highly annoying "our spell" claims. As I said, the non-native caster light padding benefit looks like it was made specifically for imbedding, and I thought it was well designed for that intent.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2346
Author: DOUG
Date: on 11/06/2016 09:36 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


So, I think I need some clarification.

The spell isn't able to be imbedded. Not unusual for a x20 spell.

I missed the memo on it being 'self-cast' (worlds apart from being imbedded, in my view). I hope that doesn't happen. And I have a simple reason why.

The name of this game at one time was interaction. I get that the consumer base is shifting, that some select players would rather interact amongst them(various)selves than others, and so on. But I'd hate to see the benefits of interacting go away. Leave the spell unimbeddable, but let's limit responses to the hue and cry to make things self-cast. It will be a very sad day when no profession can help another.

It would make the game much less fun for me.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2347
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 11/06/2016 09:39 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


>I missed the memo on it being 'self-cast'

the first paragraph:

"Mage Armor manipulates the elemental forces within a wizard's body, forming a layer of elemental energy that shifts with their movements. This self-cast spell provides additional protection from physical attacks in the form of critical padding."

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2348
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 11/06/2016 09:40 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


This has always been a self-cast spell from the original announcement, and as a level 20 spell, I'm not sure why anyone would ever have expected otherwise. Saying wizards can now no longer help another simply because only 2 of 12 of our core Major and Profession circle defensive/utility spells are no longer accessible to others is pure hyperbole.

What makes the game less fun for me is when all wizard characters are treated as mindless bots so wizards can no longer have anything unique or powerful because there are too many bots around. This is why we get the mediocre version of Enchant Item we're getting instead of something amazing like Ensorcell's active character setup.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2349
Author: KITHUS
Date: on 11/06/2016 09:59 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


501, 503, 507, 508, 509, 511, 512, 905, 911, and 916. That's a total of 10 wizard spells,

Seriously? Sleep and Cold Snap are offensive spells. Floating Disk is regularly available, as is invisibility. That's like clerics complaining about bravery being at EG. Beyond that you're complaining about Mass Blurs, a spell that is obviously intended to be shared. So really we're talking about 503, 507, 508, 509 and 905, 5 spells out of two spell circles and only one out of your profession circle. Meanwhile rangers had 601, 602, 603, 604 available at EG. Normally 606 is fairly readily available as well. That's all off a profession circle. Wizards aren't some abused puppies that have all their treats handed out to everyone. Stop acting like the 500s is your closed profession circle.

Keith/Brinret/Shiun

Keith is correct

Wyrom, APM

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Help%20for%20Players/Policy%20Discussions/view/246

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2350
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 11/06/2016 10:09 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


503, 507, 508, 509, 511, 513, 515, 905, 911, 919 are all other-cast or easily imbeddible and sold off the shelf at merchants on a regular basis. Bravery, meanwhile, is just about the only spell clerics share at merchants.

Complaining about 601 is the same as complaining about 911, when it's obvious that 611 is meant to be shared. So that's only 3 spells, and nobody really uses Skinning anyway who is a non-ranger.

606 has never been for sale except in one Premium festival shop and Duskruin. 613 has never been for sale, period.

All this disappointment comes about because of other professions constantly feeling entitled to use wizard characters as bots, when they are in fact, not entitled to having every spell a wizard possesses. Wizards don't go and complain in other profession folders that they can't get access to XYZ when new spells are released for them, so this overreaction is once again just jealousy over wizards finally getting a good thing. The same type of grass is always greener jealousy that led to wizards being over-nerfed in the first place, punishing only those who actually play wizard mains. All the bot abilities in those instances were, curiously, preserved.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2351
Author: PFLATS
Date: on 11/06/2016 10:11 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


>It would be helpful if whoever's editing the Wiki doesn't overwrite the accurate GM information with inaccurate data. The earth lore table, in particular, is completely incorrect.

Anyone can update the wiki to fix it! If that's too much work, giving details about how it's wrong is a good first step to helping someone to fix it!

>I have to say that after spending a good chunk of my day Friday struggling to put together a basic wiki page that I have a new appreciation for the work the authors do on it. It seems like a labor of love to keep it visually appealing, accurate, and consistent with the rest of the site.

Thanks! It does take a lot of work. I'm amazed VANKRASN39 does what she does.

>I'll plan to review it once the work in progress is removed, so no need to panic over it changing.

Good news: the WIP is gone!

If my fire lore estimates are wrong, can you say so? Especially if they're very wrong?

If you cannot give the actual values, that's fine. Just want to know if we're right or at least in the ballpark, because I imagine it's the weirdest part for people who are not mechanics junkies like me, and I'd like it to be as straightforward as possible.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2352
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 11/06/2016 10:25 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


>giving details about how it's wrong is a good first step to helping someone to fix it!

The entire earth lore table needs to be decreased by 1 point, or the 250 ranks ends in fantastical range, which exceeds what we were told about the upper end being phenomenal. Somewhat starts at 5 points, not a base of 6.

I have no clue if the fire lore values are correct, but my initial impression is there's no effective difference for most characters between 15 ranks of fire lore and 231, since one is unable to use partial stances without combat mastery. As a pure, I don't see a partial stance effect as worth wasting the 1x CM allocation wizards get either, when most wizards have to deal with disarm and are generally better served training in other CMAN abilities. One really has to sacrifice a lot to get what appears to be only a 5-10% increase in DS.

Since there has been no update on it yet, for what it's worth, the fire lore aspect appears to be providing full benefits even when a spell is not CHANNELed.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2353
Author: AISEN
Date: on 11/06/2016 10:37 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


GS really just needs a full spell review aimed at balancing what should be signature and what shouldn't. DR did the same thing when they moved to Magic 3.0 (and continues to do so, based on profession confounds and new spells), and it's probably something that really needs to be done in GS, too. It's a time consuming process, but it's probably more important for game and profession balance than many seem to want to admit.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2354
Author: DOUG
Date: on 11/06/2016 11:19 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


>>the first paragraph:

Ahh, yep. Ok, missed it. Heh. Thanks, V.

Let me clarify my position -

Too many people are calling for restrictions and drawing back, across the forums and in multiple professions. Various justifications and counter-justifications are being floated. This represents, to me, one of the greatest travesties against the game that I've seen in some time. I am less concerned about the outcome of this singular spell than I am concerned about the posts here and in other profession folders about 'the way things should be' without regard to the game's interactive premise.

GMs - I like the spell, in case that hasn't been evident. Thank you. I recognize the challenge this will create longer term for development in other professions. My hat is off to you for taking this bold step.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2355
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 11/06/2016 11:40 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


This full spell review and balancing was done in the move to GS4, which is when each profession was intended to only share a handful of spells but otherwise be fine self-spelled.

We need less reviewing and more fun, so I highly suggest if someone feels their own profession is lacking, to go advocate for positive development there.

I'm all for balanced spell sharing, as in group requirement the way 307/310 and Major Spiritual spells are handled, rather than bot ability "cast and run" that promotes nothing but the use of utility spell-up characters. Preventing unbalanced spell sharing has no relevance to the game's interactive premise.

Unbalanced spell sharing via other-cast 515 is why wizards are the ones to pay an excessively punitive nerf penalty for 515. The only ones who can afford to use 515 on cooldown without feeling any penalties are those sorcerer and cleric CS spell users who have very cheap, but lethal if used for rapid attrition, methods of killing.

Now we've moved to the expectation that everyone has every imbed on all the time, which is why combat quests and pay events have become ridiculous to the point where you can't survive the boss creature or finish at all if you aren't min-max enhanced and spell buffed. This shouldn't be the case, and in fact, event developers are doing everyone a disservice by treating outside buffs and enhancives as necessary and making combat quests and events excessively tedious or impossible for the pre-cap.

The very last thing I want as both a player of a wizard main and a player of non-wizard characters is to have my other characters be even more cripplingly dependent on wizard spell band-aids that are universally available to all, while wizards themselves are denied any further development because everyone can have all these things with no restriction as well. This is why Haste (506) was removed because NIR stated that other characters were forced to rely on wizard imbeds like candy. And yet, quickstrike abilities were granted to everyone.

The reality is every other profession has access to most of what a wizard has, while a wizard can access very little of what others have on a unique basis.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2356
Author: PFLATS
Date: on 11/06/2016 11:46 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


>The entire earth lore table needs to be decreased by 1 point, or the 250 ranks ends in fantastical range, which exceeds what we were told about the upper end being phenomenal. Somewhat starts at 5 points, not a base of 6.

I see the issue and figured out how it snuck in. I'll put the fix in soon if you haven't already (or someone else hasn't done so).


>there's no effective difference for most characters between 15 ranks of fire lore and 231

You'll likely get 98% AS from Forward stance with 231 Fire vs 90% with 15. That's a big defensive boost for a minor offensive hit.

I think the greatest difference in offensive usefulness for Fire Aspect will come when you're channeling in guarded.

> since one is unable to use partial stances without combat mastery. As a pure, I don't see a partial stance effect as worth wasting the 1x CM allocation wizards get either, when most wizards have to deal with disarm and are generally better served training in other CMAN abilities.

I'm the one who added the combat mastery note, not a GM. I mostly put it there because it's the first time I might actually advocate training in it.

As it stands, non-warmage wizards probably spend their 101 CM Points as:

I hate disarm:
5 ranks disarm (60 CMP, +60(?) disarm defense)
5 ranks cunning defense (40 CMP, +15 general CM defense)
1 point left over
I hate disarm but also hate bandits and like optimizing my points:
5 ranks disarm (60 CMP, +60? disarm defense)
4 ranks cunning defense (40 CMP, +12 general CM defense)
1 rank feint (4 CMP, +15 feint defense)
1 rank subdual strike (4 CMP, +15 sstrike defense)
5 point left over for +2 DS or dirtkick or something
More Defense:
5 ranks disarm (60 CMP, +60? disarm defense)
3 ranks cunning defense (18 CMP, +9 general CM defense)
2 ranks feint (10 CMP, +30 feint defense)
2 ranks subdual strike (10 CMP, +30 sstrike defense)
3 points left over
I really don't like disarm but try to avoid it:
4 ranks disarm (40 CMP, +50? disarm defense)
5 ranks cunning defense (40 CMP, +15 general CM defense)
2 ranks feint (10 CMP, +30 feint defense)
2 ranks subdual strike (10 CMP, +30 sstrike defense)
3 points left over

I would suggest alternate allocations for wizards who plan to use Fire Aspect and have either no fire lore but still want full offensive power or over 91 ranks:

Fire Armor Anti-Disarm:
5 ranks disarm (60 CMP, +60? disarm defense)
4 ranks cunning defense (28 CMP, +12 general CM defense)
1 rank combat mastery (4 CMP, 10% stance adjustment)
1 rank feint (4 CMP, +15 feint defense)
1 rank subdual strike (4 CMP, +15 sstrike defense)
2 ranks combat mastery (8 CMP, 5% stance adjustment)
1 point left over
Fire Armor Rift/Sanctum/Reim/Bandits/Warcamps
4 ranks disarm (40 CMP, +50? disarm defense)
4 ranks cunning defense (28 CMP, +12 general CM defense)
2 ranks subdual strike (10 CMP, +30 sstrike defense)
1 rank combat mastery (4 CMP, 10% stance adjustment)
1 rank feint (4 CMP, +15 feint defense)
15 points left over to spend between:
2 ranks combat mastery (8 CMP, 5% stance adjustment)
2 ranks feint (6 CMP, additional +15 feint defense)
5 ranks cunning defense (12 CMP, additional +3 general CM defense)
1/2 ranks dirtkick (4/10 CMP, +15/+30 dirtkick defense, kick dirt in the eyes of those people you hate)
1/2 ranks combat movement (4/10 CMP, +2/+4 DS)
1 rank Side-by-Side (14 CMP counting 10 CMP combat movement pre-req, +4 DS and more AS/DS when grouped.)

Why?

>One really has to sacrifice a lot to get what appears to be only a 5-10% increase in DS.

It's not about the DS. It's about everything but the DS, and the stuff that really matters: evade, parry, (and block if you're a shield/staff post-cap build) maneuver defense, and CML defense all also get boosts in higher stances.

Rank 5 of Cunning Defense is 12 CM Points for +3 CML defense. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I'd be absolutely blown away if a 10% stance change didn't give a 1x CM postcap wizard more than 3 CML defense. (And the increase will only increase further with enhancives.)

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2358
Author: KITHUS
Date: on 11/06/2016 12:00 PM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


We need less reviewing and more fun

But DO NOT imbed our spells!

so I highly suggest if someone feels their own profession is lacking, to go advocate for positive development there.

This isn't a matter of someone else's profession lacking. It's other wizards who enjoyed having the ability to imbed something new for others. That said as a ranger I can say I don't feel there's any point in discussing anything in the ranger folder. No one in dev seems to read there and even if they do they've made it pretty clear rangers are never going to get any work.

Keith/Brinret/Shiun

Keith is correct

Wyrom, APM

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Help%20for%20Players/Policy%20Discussions/view/246

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2359
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 11/06/2016 12:14 PM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


Non-wizards have lost nothing from this release or subsequent update. They never used 520 imbeds before to begin with because StoneSkin was garbage. The only thing prevented here is one more OP avenue of unbalanced spell sharing that WOULD be compensated for in either hunting ground design or lack of positive development for other professions in the future if they have this new crutch to rely upon.

The point of profession development should always be to support the playing of the profession as an actual standalone character rather than primarily to be used as a utility bot. This was stated with the 319 change, and I welcome this stance when applied to wizards as well. This is not new. This is, in fact, gamewide precedent for all other professions.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2360
Author: PFLATS
Date: on 11/06/2016 01:32 PM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


I am convinced you have no idea what you're talking about or are being deliberately obtuse. If I didn't think these responses also helped other players, I'd have stopped making them by now.

>I don't consider a 40 point offensive hit minor at all. That's half of a maximum enhancive boost negated right there just for defense.

The only way you're going to see "a 40 point offensive hit" from 98% AS vs 100% AS is if you have 2000 AS. If you have 2000 AS, you can spare 40.

>I'm confused where in the fire lore setup, you have room for combat mastery?

The numbers are there. They all add up to 101. You replied within 9 minutes of a post that I spent quite some time writing and working out the numbers for; take a little longer to read them over more closely. If I made a math mistake, please point it out and I'll fix it.

>You can't get more offensive than offensive, so if you're in offensive and have +3 CML defense, you'd still be better off than being in a non-offensive stance, trying to get offensive abilities, and sacrificing those extra +3 CML defense points for Combat Mastery. In other words, those Rank 5 Cunning Defense points come from Cunning Defense or nothing at all. The only reason you'd be in a less than offensive stance and use Combat Mastery to achieve offensive stance benefits is because you want the DS.

Fire Aspect is not an offensive ability. Fire Aspect is a defensive ability, just like every other Aspect of Mage Armor. It lets you increase your stance with fewer offensive penalties. If that's not what you want, then don't use it. If you're running Fire Aspect, you shouldn't be in offensive stance. Fire Aspect has literally no benefit in offensive stance.

In offensive stance, you will never have more CML defense than what 5 ranks of cdef will give you. But you will have more CML defense in a lower stance. Plus the DS. Plus the evade/block/parry. Plus general maneuver defense.

I'm not an expert on the CML formula; I haven't kept up with the PC thread researching it. There's a very good chance that using Combat Mastery to go from 0% stance to 10% stance (no lore full offense) or 20% to 30% (120+ fire lore full offense) will give more than 3 CML defense. If it's exactly 3 defense, then dropping rank 5 of cdef for 1 rank of cmastery will give you the exact same defense with 8 points to spare.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2361
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 11/06/2016 01:51 PM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


>The only way you're going to see "a 40 point offensive hit" from 98% AS vs 100% AS is if you have 2000 AS. If you have 2000 AS, you can spare 40.

I'm talking about 90% AS vs. 98% AS, since my entire discussion point began about little to no difference between 15 ranks of fire lore and 231 ranks. You might try reading your own quote before insulting people:

>You'll likely get 98% AS from Forward stance with 231 Fire vs 90% with 15. That's a big defensive boost for a minor offensive hit.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2363
Author: KITHUS
Date: on 11/06/2016 02:03 PM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


>The only way you're going to see "a 40 point offensive hit" from 98% AS vs 100% AS is if you have 2000 AS. If you have 2000 AS, you can spare 40.
I'm talking about 90% AS vs. 98% AS, since my entire discussion point began about little to no difference between 15 ranks of fire lore and 231 ranks. You might try reading your own quote before insulting people:

No one insulted you. They pointed out a potential inaccuracy in your math. Disagreeing with you is not an insult. Telling you what we think about you is.

Keith/Brinret/Shiun

Keith is correct

Wyrom, APM

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Help%20for%20Players/Policy%20Discussions/view/246

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2364
Author: ASHRAAM
Date: on 11/06/2016 04:43 PM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


Since the spell is now "limited release", is it possible for you to remove the "non-native" disadvantage to using the spell. If you release this spell in some "God Auction", it would be a worthless item.

1. The spell used with a magic item cannot gain the elemental lore benefits 2. The spell used with a magic item cannot gain the MjE ranks benefits

Therefore - Light Crit Padding is not worth any value to other professions in the form of a magic item that is "limited release". Please remove that limitation, and allow it to be used with the Somewhat Padding Level that is defaulted with the item.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2366
Author: PFLATS
Date: on 11/06/2016 07:02 PM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


There was a post elsewhere about Illoke dispel ignoring 1701, so I imagine it probably needs to be looked at in general.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2367
Author: SJOSEPH
Date: on 11/06/2016 07:36 PM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


Ok so focused 520 on Water 70 ranks of water lore with this mage


>stance def You are now in a defensive stance. >e [Thanatoph Bowels, Cavern] Erosion and time have formed a tall earthen cliff, the lake below still visible from this vantage. Several crushed pieces of stone lie scattered about the ground, most no bigger than a pebble. You also see an Illoke elder and a wide ledge. Obvious exits: south, west

> Your disk arrives, following you dutifully. > An Illoke elder summons the wrath of his god as he gestures at you! Your connection to the elemental realm falters! You feel your extra strength departing. The bright luminescence fades from around you. The silvery luminescence fades from around you. You feel less confident than before.


520 didn't attempt to block it no fail message.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2368
Author: GS4-VIDUUS
Date: on 11/06/2016 12:12 PM PST
Subject: Mage Armor Mana Costs and Spell messages


The following was an oversight on my part in breaking down the initial details of the spell. The mana costs for Mage Armor work a bit differently than traditional spells so I created this post to break down those costs. 

Previously when we associated a lore effect to a spell you had to have a minimum number of ranks in any given lore to trigger the effects, usually around 20 ranks.  You guys have explained in great detail how much you loved that setup and splitting your lores 4 ways, so with mage armor we took a different approach.  You can access all lore benefits of the spell regardless of lore training, but if you're under trained in a lore (see under 20 ranks) and aren't using an armor of your attunement, then you will be penalized and have to pay additional mana.  Every rank below 20 that you are will cost an additional 4 mana when casting the spell, though this mana penalty is capped at 99 mana.

Some of you have been seeing a cost of 99 mana for this spell, this penalty is why.  Do consider before lighting up those torches that the alternative would be a hard lockout of aspects for which you are under trained, so hopefully this system is more palatable.

On spell messaging, you will only see the aspect message "You shift the focus of the surrounding energies into xxxx" when first casting the spell and no previous 520 was on you, or when switching from one aspect to another.

Viduus



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2369
Author: TANDL
Date: on 11/06/2016 12:30 PM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor Mana Costs and Spell messages


Is there any way we can add something to this cost system, such as an additional cap to a certain percentage (even 100%) of a characters max mana pool or a spell confirm requirement of some sort?

Having a level 20 character get a new fancy spell, cast it, and completely destroy their nerves seems a bit much. Especially when no other spell in GS can realistically cost more than pure's max mana when they first gain the ability to cast it.

Tal.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2370
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 11/06/2016 12:36 PM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor Mana Costs and Spell messages


I don't love it, but I'm fine with this mana cost setup as long as there can be a check set such that if you don't have sufficient mana to cast the spell, you would get messaging to that effect similar to the check for 950 and 550. I say this only because I'm sure you're well aware that have -50 or more mana results in instant death, which seems excessively severe for a possible mistake.

This minimum check is also in place for quickstrike uses, so I don't see this as being OP.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2371
Author: VEYTHORNE
Date: on 11/06/2016 01:02 PM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor Mana Costs and Spell messages


Please tell us what goes into the success rate for 520/water.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2372
Author: PFLATS
Date: on 11/06/2016 01:11 PM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor Mana Costs and Spell messages


99 mana for a level 20 character casting a level 20 spell is insane. They literally cannot have that much mana.

>Do consider before lighting up those torches that the alternative would be a hard lockout of aspects for which you are under trained, so hopefully this system is more palatable.

This is a false dichotomy. There are plenty of alternatives:

You can cast the aspects you're undertrained just fine! The game keeps working!

You can cast the aspects you're undertrained for, but it's an additional 4 mana per, capped at triple the cost, 60 mana. That's still a ton of mana!

You can cast the aspects you're undertrained for, but it's an additional 2 mana per.

etc.

>Every rank below 20 that you are will cost an additional 4 mana when casting the spell, though this mana penalty is capped at 99 mana.

Uh, 20 base cost + 20 ranks * 4 mana/rank = 100 max mana. A 99 mana cap is not exactly helping anything.

The mana penalty has exactly two effects, one major, one specific.

1. Major: It takes way longer for low-level wizards to spell up in between hunts and after dying. They might need an empath's help to do so (?!).

2. Minor: If you get dispelled in the field or want to change aspects in the field, it costs more mana to recast.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2373
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 11/06/2016 01:15 PM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor Mana Costs and Spell messages


>99 mana for a level 20 character casting a level 20 spell is insane. They literally cannot have that much mana.

I'd agree except a level 20 character does not need to be casting all aspects. The penalty only applies if you have no lore AND you aren't attuned. You can still cast your attuned element's armor aspect for the 20 mana cost.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2375
Author: ALUVIUS
Date: on 11/06/2016 03:23 PM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor Mana Costs and Spell messages


I don't have a torch to light, in fact I'd suggest you look at revising several of the lore updated spells to work this way. Either penalize non attuned/under trained but still allow the wizard to use that aspect OR perhaps just give an increased bonus to those with attunement/training over a threshhold.

I would stil be happy if its the penalization route just fyi. :)

My point is that the implementation of 520 is just about perfect for the ways lore should work with wizards and our 4 way split/attunements with wildly divergent combat utility for some paths.


Thanks for the clarification!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2376
Author: TIGGEREYE
Date: on 11/06/2016 03:30 PM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor Mana Costs and Spell messages


>>My point is that the implementation of 520 is just about perfect for the ways lore should work with wizards and our 4 way split/attunements with wildly divergent combat utility for some paths.<

+1! Thank you for this spell and how it works!

___________________________________

The flamepoint sand kitten hisses at a patchwork flesh monstrosity. 

  ... 9 points of damage!



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2377
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 11/07/2016 06:28 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor Mana Costs and Spell messages


-- Viduus

That's a pretty serious oversight, neh?

.

.

"if you're under trained in a lore (see under 20 ranks) and aren't using an armor of your attunement" -- ibid

Do I correctly understand from your post, that if you are attuned to an element in which you have fewer than 20 ranks, you do NOT pay the extra 4 mana per rank?

Since 'mana spellup' is 'free' casting, do you get around the surcharge this way, too?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2378
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 11/07/2016 06:30 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor Mana Costs and Spell messages


"They literally cannot have that much mana." -- PFlats

Doch.

At last, a use for those alchemical "+50 max mana" potions!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2379
Author: KANDOR
Date: on 11/07/2016 07:10 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor Mana Costs and Spell messages


I really like the implementation of this spell but I wish there was some other effect besides variable mana cost. There seems to be something flawed in the implementation of variable mana costs in this game that I can't put my finger on. I think it's because there is a penalty for overcasting, which is unusual in other games. Variable mana as it exists today seems to penalize players for doing nothing wrong. At best it's a lesson in diligence.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2380
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 11/07/2016 09:07 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


At first:

Wizards: "520 shouldn't be imbeddable!" People: "lol y not it's only light padding!"

Now:

People: "omg 520 should be imbeddible!" Wizards: "lol y it's only light padding!"


Striking resemblance to this year's election cycle.


~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2381
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 11/07/2016 09:16 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


>The name of this game at one time was interaction. I get that the consumer base is shifting, that some select players would rather interact amongst them(various)selves than others, and so on. But I'd hate to see the benefits of interacting go away. Leave the spell unimbeddable, but let's limit responses to the hue and cry to make things self-cast. It will be a very sad day when no profession can help another.

>It would make the game much less fun for me.

Easy fix: Make the spell like 310 to where others benefit from it while grouped with the wizard.

Now you have interaction without being plagued with more "Almost all of your spells are available to everyone else but hardly anyone else's spells are available to you." stuff, and if someone's wizard bot isn't leveled up with their main, they're not gonna be tagging along.

I don't really care one way or another about this whole deal, but I do think it's kind of stupid how so many other spells aren't nearly as easily available (or available at all) to wizards as wizard spells are so easily available to everyone else.

>Seriously? Sleep and Cold Snap are offensive spells. Floating Disk is regularly available, as is invisibility. That's like clerics complaining about bravery being at EG.

Swap bravery for heroism and that would be a more apples to apples comparison. Bravery is one of the few readily available MjS spells, as it's sold in the cleric shop even. When was the last time you saw a Heroism item sold off the shelf? Mangled steel spoons from the 90s?

On a somewhat contradictory note, I probably wouldn't mind this imbalance of spell availability as much if Charge Item wasn't so inferior to Scroll Infusion.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2382
Author: LORDSOPH
Date: on 11/08/2016 06:08 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


Had a strange bug (I think) occur with water focused mage armor. Here is the messaging. The seer phased in, dispelled and phased back out instantaneously as I was obviously not casting at it due to the phasing (I was actually targeting a war griffin). Apparently the mage armor did at least attempt to block the dispel. Can we get some sort of information regarding the formula whether a dispel is blocked?

An Ithzir seer fades into view! An Ithzir seer suddenly opens his eyes and stares directly at you!

A pale, flickering nimbus coalesces around you, then vanishes in a brilliant flash!

Just as you , the Ithzir seer shimmers and fades away, leaving you gesturing at nothingness! The raw elemental energy surrounding you takes on a watery look as it attempts to absorb the magic. The powerful look leaves you. The deep blue glow leaves you. The light blue glow leaves you.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2383
Author: GS4-VIDUUS
Date: on 11/08/2016 08:50 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


An Ithzir seer fades into view! An Ithzir seer suddenly opens his eyes and stares directly at you!

A pale, flickering nimbus coalesces around you, then vanishes in a brilliant flash!

Just as you , the Ithzir seer shimmers and fades away, leaving you gesturing at nothingness! The raw elemental energy surrounding you takes on a watery look as it attempts to absorb the magic. The powerful look leaves you. The deep blue glow leaves you. The light blue glow leaves you. 


I'll see what I can do on this.

Viduus



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2384
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 11/08/2016 10:04 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


It seems the Emperor broke my mage armor, and it shattered like it was still the useless StoneSkin. After the fight, I noticed my mage armor was gone from my spell active list. However, I also noticed that when I cast 520 again, it did not say that this was the first time I'm activating this aspect.

>The Royal Emperor slings an embossed hoarbeam shield off from over his shoulder. The Royal Emperor thrusts with a sleek glaes estoc at you! 

 AS: +588 vs DS: +585 with AvD: +37 + d100 roll: +81 = +121
  A layer of shifting stone absorbs 1 points of damage, then shatters!
  ... and hits for 21 points of damage!
  Minor puncture to the back.

>spell active You currently have the following active spells: Elemental Defense I ................ 3:27:26 Elemental Defense II ............... 3:27:26 Elemental Defense III .............. 3:27:26 Elemental Targeting ................ 3:27:26 Elemental Barrier .................. 1:16:57 Thurfel's Ward ..................... 3:27:26 Elemental Deflection ............... 3:27:26 Elemental Bias ..................... 3:27:26 Strength ........................... 3:27:26 Elemental Focus .................... 3:27:26 Haste .............................. 3:27:26 Temporal Reversion ................. 3:27:26

>pre 520 You recite a series of mystical phrases while raising your hands, invoking Mage Armor... Your spell is ready. J>cast earth You gesture. A layer of raw elemental energy forms around you. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2385
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 11/08/2016 10:10 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


I'm also no longer getting the earth aspect messaging, so it doesn't seem to be activating at all any more upon stuns:

>search box You tentatively open the blackened box. You search around the inside of the blackened box, disturbing some markings! 

  ... 25 points of damage!
  Heavy jolt to chest causes solar plexus to explode.  Remarkable display of spraying blood.
  You are stunned for 5 rounds!

The blackened box vanishes in a cloud of ethereal light. You don't find anything useful.

>A ghostly marauder darts behind you quickly and tries to hamstring you with his rapier! [Roll result: 203 (open d100: 89)] With a vicious strike the ghostly marauder slashes at your right hamstring! 

  ... 30 points of damage!

You fall to the ground grasping your mangled right leg! You are stunned!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2386
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 11/08/2016 10:52 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


There's some kind of typo in the first messaging:

>inc 904 Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Acid... Your spell is ready. You gesture at an ethereal squire. You hurl a hissing stream of acid at an ethereal squire! Minor Acid 

 AS: +550 vs DS: +489 with AvD: +36 + d100 roll: +77 = +174
  A hit!
  --you blink as you realize that what you thought you saw didn't actually happen.

You hurl a hissing stream of acid at an ethereal squire! The ethereal squire deflects your bolt with his staff! 

  You sense a sudden, sharp fluctuation in the temporal field surrounding an ethereal squire.

Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

The earth aspect seems to be activating on creatures:

>inc 904 Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Acid... Your spell is ready. You gesture at an ethereal squire. You hurl a hissing stream of acid at an ethereal squire! an ethereal squire's exterior hardens for a moment and softens the attack! 

 AS: +552 vs DS: +365 with AvD: +36 + d100 roll: +28 = +251
  ... and hit for 83 points of damage!
  Attack whistles right through the chest!
  It's like fighting fog!
  Some of the acid sticks to an ethereal squire and continues to bubble away!

Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2387
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 11/08/2016 11:12 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


LADYFLEUR
The earth aspect seems to be activating on creatures:
>inc 904
Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Acid...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an ethereal squire.
You hurl a hissing stream of acid at an ethereal squire!
an ethereal squire's exterior hardens for a moment and softens the attack!
AS: +552 vs DS: +365 with AvD: +36 + d100 roll: +28 = +251
... and hit for 83 points of damage!
Attack whistles right through the chest!
It's like fighting fog!
Some of the acid sticks to an ethereal squire and continues to bubble away!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

That's Elemental Barrier's (430) lore benefit.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2388
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 11/09/2016 11:11 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


The earth aspect still isn't working at all like before:

>search box You tentatively open the blackened box. You search around the inside of the blackened box, but end up triggering a pressure plate! 

  ... 30 points of damage!
  Strong slash to your right leg!
  Muscles exposed!
  Not a pretty sight.
  You are knocked to the ground!
  You are stunned for 6 rounds!

The blackened box vanishes in a cloud of ethereal light.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2389
Author: GS4-VIDUUS
Date: on 11/09/2016 04:43 PM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


The earth aspect still isn't working at all like before:

>search box You tentatively open the blackened box. You search around the inside of the blackened box, but end up triggering a pressure plate! ... 30 points of damage! Strong slash to your right leg! Muscles exposed! Not a pretty sight. You are knocked to the ground! You are stunned for 6 rounds! The blackened box vanishes in a cloud of ethereal light. 


I'm not seeing the issue in your clip.  The earth aspect wouldn't kick in at all on the above clip.  The earth aspect doesn't kick in until you're stunned, which happens after the damage above.  Though, it's been a long week so I could be missing something, what's the issue?

Viduus

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2390
Author: DEANSMITH
Date: on 11/14/2016 09:46 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


I know this bug/feature was brought up before but I do not recall seeing any official word on it...

The Fire Lore benefit is currently working for spells using CAST and EVOKE (not CHANNEL only like was originally stated) is this intended?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2391
Author: GS4-VIDUUS
Date: on 11/15/2016 10:31 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


The Fire Lore benefit is currently working for spells using CAST and EVOKE (not CHANNEL only like was originally stated) is this intended? 


Not intended.  I've a batch of bug fixes coming up that will address it.

Viduus



Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2392
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 11/21/2016 07:33 PM PST
Subject: Rapid Fire (515) Cooldown


Rapid Fire's (515) cooldown formula has been updated to reduce the 90 second cooldown by 1 second per 2.2 ranks of Elemental Mana Control. So at 100 ranks of EMC, the cooldown is only 45 seconds. At 200 ranks, there is no cooldown.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2393
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 11/21/2016 08:43 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Cooldown


Long overdue. Thank you very much. Can this be refreshed before dropping?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2394
Author: CANDIDE
Date: on 11/21/2016 09:21 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Cooldown


I feel like this much sought after change deserves our thanks. I will consider it an early Festivus present. Thank you.

GBB

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2395
Author: DOUG
Date: on 11/21/2016 10:10 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Cooldown


Just . . . wow!

Thanks, Estild!

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2396
Author: KITHUS
Date: on 11/22/2016 02:49 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Cooldown


Very nice Estild. After all the negativity we've seen over some of these changes I hope we see a lot of wizards giving thanks for this one.

Keith/Brinret/Shiun

Keith is correct

Wyrom, APM

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Help%20for%20Players/Policy%20Discussions/view/246

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2397
Author: RROY
Date: on 11/22/2016 04:17 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Cooldown


Great change thanks !

Just an elf about town...

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2398
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 11/22/2016 08:19 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Cooldown


Awesome fix, thank you tons.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2399
Author: RAGGLER
Date: on 11/22/2016 09:16 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Cooldown


As someone who was hugely and loudly against the cooldown on 515, I'll be man enough to admit that I came to tolerate it over the last year. It actually did change up my hunting style during the cooldowns to allow for a more varied hunt. However, the squeaky wheel gets the grease, and we've definitely been greased, so a huge thank you for listening to the majority and making this change.

Isle Snack Muncher

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2400
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 11/22/2016 10:05 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Cooldown


> As someone who was hugely and loudly against the cooldown on 515, I'll be man enough to admit that I came to tolerate it over the last year. It actually did change up my hunting style during the cooldowns to allow for a more varied hunt.

If you still want a cooldown, all you have to do is have less than 200 ranks of EMC! ;)

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2401
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 11/22/2016 12:39 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Cooldown


> Long overdue. Thank you very much. Can this be refreshed before dropping?

It can now!

515 is now refreshable and the cooldown is calculated when the spell is cast, rather than when it ends. If you have less than 200 ranks of Elemental Mana Control, refreshing 515 will incur the +5 additional mana penalty. If you have at least 200 ranks of EMC, 515 should be refreshable without any penalties now.

Have fun!

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2402
Author: KRAKII
Date: on 11/22/2016 12:43 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Cooldown


One (or more) of these GM posts is well worth having up in the overall 'Announcements' category.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2403
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 11/22/2016 01:09 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Cooldown


>515 is now refreshable and the cooldown is calculated when the spell is cast, rather than when it ends. If you have less than 200 ranks of Elemental Mana Control, refreshing 515 will incur the +5 additional mana penalty. If you have at least 200 ranks of EMC, 515 should be refreshable without any penalties now.

so now the 3 second cooldown is the max benefit at 192 ranks to account for 515 cast rt?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2404
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 11/22/2016 01:14 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Cooldown


> so now the 3 second cooldown is the max benefit at 192 ranks to account for 515 cast rt?

Sorry, I think I got confused somewhere... 192 is the max benefit?

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2405
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 11/22/2016 01:15 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Cooldown


Thanks again, Konacon! Great news!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2406
Author: VANKRASN39
Date: on 11/22/2016 01:24 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Cooldown


>Sorry, I think I got confused somewhere... 192 is the max benefit?


that's what I'd like to confirm. With the initial cast of 515 you still have 3 sec cast RT, and a 3 seconds cooldown would be 192 ranks to cast again immediately after the cast RT (why you would want to, I don't know)

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2407
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 11/22/2016 01:26 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Cooldown


>so now the 3 second cooldown is the max benefit at 192 ranks to account for 515 cast rt?

Cast RT is cast RT, not a cooldown. Refreshing without 200 ranks of EMC results in the cooldown with +5 mana penalty applied to all spells cast under the effect of 515.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2408
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 11/22/2016 01:52 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Cooldown


To go into more detail (I hope this helps):

The cooldown is the same as before, but 60 seconds longer to account for the duration of 515 itself since it is calculated and applied when the spell is cast. The net result is the same as before with the old formula, but now refreshing 515 is allowed. The only special rule here is that if the cooldown would be 60 seconds or less (The duration of 515, 200 ranks of EMC), no cooldown is applied at all since it would only be active during 515 anyways. This allows casters with 200 ranks of EMC to refresh it without any penalty.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2409
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 11/23/2016 05:26 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Cooldown


>One (or more) of these GM posts is well worth having up in the overall 'Announcements' category.

I think a real life parade is in order as well.

Who's gonna ride on the Konacon float?

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2410
Author: SOURCE
Date: on 11/26/2016 10:09 PM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


Is this still supposed to be happening? 

 ... and hit for 61 points of damage!
  Well aimed strike shatters bone in right arm!

 Necrotic energy from your gornar tanto overflows into you! 

  You feel energized!

 The stones shifting around a Grimswarm orc adept suddenly release a blast of vibrating energy at you! 

  ... 30 points of damage!
  Hard strike to your left leg breaking tendons and bone!
  You are knocked to the ground!
  You are stunned for 6 rounds!

You try to return to the shadows, but find yourself unable to do so!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2411
Author: PFLATS
Date: on 11/27/2016 01:17 PM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


>The Fire Lore benefit is currently working for spells using CAST and EVOKE (not CHANNEL only like was originally stated) is this intended?

> Not intended. I've a batch of bug fixes coming up that will address it.

As I found out from both casting the wrong armor and messing up my stance, the bonus also is working for FIRE, so I assume ATTACK will trigger it too.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2413
Author: STAVMAN
Date: on 12/01/2016 06:05 AM PST
Subject: Re: Mage Armor (520) Released!


I have seen the critters in the Labyrinth in illi have a similar retaliatory attach...seems some Critters get 520 as well...lol

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2414
Author: EARTHDIVER
Date: on 12/06/2016 05:01 PM PST
Subject: Mana Leech timer and Decay


Shouldn't this be reset after a decay?

>spell active You currently have the following active spells: Mana Leech Recovery ................ 0:03:14

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2415
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 12/15/2016 07:12 AM PST
Subject: 512 Fire Flare - Can We Get Rid Of It?


Any chance we can get rid of this fire flare/removal of 512 when casting fire on a target that's been hit with 512?

It's very counter productive and the flare itself is meh and overall serves no purpose but to be annoying.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2416
Author: GAROFALOA
Date: on 12/18/2016 10:35 AM PST
Subject: Re: 512 Fire Flare - Can We Get Rid Of It?


Quit volunteering us for nerfs, methais!













I agree with Methais.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2417
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 12/18/2016 09:41 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapid Fire (515) Cooldown


I'm not sure if this happened because Rapid Fire was cast while the character was still in Cast RT, but the first cast after Rapid Fire was applied still takes the full 3 seconds.

>inc 1612 You trace a simple symbol as you reverently call on your patron in the prayer for Champion's Might... Your spell is ready. You gesture. A dim celadon wisp flares briefly about each of your hands, trailing soft pulses of residual light as they move. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. s>XXX just arrived. s>XXX recites a series of mystical phrases while raising her hands... s>XXX gestures at you. You feel the magic surge through you. s>inc 1612 You trace a simple symbol as you reverently call on your patron in the prayer for Champion's Might... Your spell is ready. You gesture. A dim celadon wisp flares briefly about each of your hands, trailing soft pulses of residual light as they move. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. >inc 1612 You trace a simple symbol as you reverently call on your patron in the prayer for Champion's Might... Your spell is ready. You gesture. A dim celadon wisp flares briefly about each of your hands, trailing soft pulses of residual light as they move. Cast Roundtime 1 Second.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2418
Author: DRAFIX
Date: on 12/19/2016 08:24 PM PST
Subject: Re: 512 Fire Flare - Can We Get Rid Of It?


thirded

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2419
Author: DRAFIX
Date: on 12/19/2016 08:24 PM PST
Subject: Re: Mana Leech timer and Decay


Just dying doesn't reset that. Several spells are like that, as long as its a negative effect, death doesn't remove it.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2420
Author: DRAFIX
Date: on 12/19/2016 09:26 PM PST
Subject: Re: 550 w/another spell prepped


Is this still an issue?

Will it be fixed if it is?

And .. this is terrible.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2423
Author: DRAFIX
Date: on 12/20/2016 01:08 AM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


I don't think 519 is acceptable to be weaker due to 516 at all. I think 519 costly slightly more mana than 317 or 1115 is acceptable due to 516. Why would it not be? If a profession has more mana available, it stands to reason they can spend more mana. I don't object to making a case of 240 vs 516's mana benefits though.


In that case, let me propose a solution in the reverse direction whilst continuing on this line of logic. If 516 provides mana benefits which results in having all spells cost more.. then please remove the spell and reduce the cost or raise the efficiency of all our spells that factor 516's 'benefit.' There are plenty of other ways to get mana that doesn't require 516. If 516's potential to double my mana pool is factored into every spell, then removing the spell should effectively double the DF of all my spells to compensate, no?

Effectively, 516 adds no benefit if it is factored into all the other spells. Any benefit received from 516 will just either A) increase the cost of spells or B) decrease the effectiveness of the spell to compensate.

In the same train of thought, 425 adds no benefit as all critters have their DS increased to account for the +50 AS boost from 425. Try hunting without 425 and see if you can hit anything like-level at around level 60+.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2424
Author: AMCPENS
Date: on 12/20/2016 05:41 AM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


"In the same train of thought, 425 adds no benefit as all critters have their DS increased to account for the +50 AS boost from 425. Try hunting without 425 and see if you can hit anything like-level at around level 60+."

Yep. And the net benefit of critters being set up to require those buff spells to hit them, is that we spend more mana/time between hunts to keep the buff spells active. It's a net loss for the player.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2425
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 12/21/2016 11:53 AM PST
Subject: Re: Immolation (519)


While we're on the subject, has anymore thought been given to giving us a 240 style booster? It was briefly mentioned during the post nerf uproar, but I don't think anything else has really been said about it, at least by staff.

The recent changes have been pretty awesome, don't get me wrong, but we're still lacking a reliable kill spell that's on par with 240/317/1115, which was the biggest issue for a lot of us.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2426
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 12/22/2016 02:53 PM PST
Subject: 550 and drowning


Time Stop doesn't do anything to save you if you're being drowned by a creature in Nelemar. Is this intended?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2427
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 12/22/2016 03:01 PM PST
Subject: Re: 550 and drowning


I'm not a fan of the current implementation of time stop at all (and am working on writing a proposed alternate version for consideration).

But I will say that 520 with lightning flares works pretty well for this if you are being drowned by an executioner (not so well if it is a defender or combatant though).

-- Robert

A powerful whirlpool is suddenly overtaken by a windy vortex!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2428
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 12/22/2016 03:10 PM PST
Subject: Re: 550 and drowning


I'm completely fine with 550 as it is. I just wanted to know if this is intended.

I'd much rather any future wizard work be done on offensive spells than more defense.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2429
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 12/22/2016 05:28 PM PST
Subject: Re: 550 and drowning


>But I will say that 520 with lightning flares works pretty well for this if you are being drowned by an executioner (not so well if it is a defender or combatant though).

Huh?

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2430
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 12/22/2016 06:38 PM PST
Subject: Re: 550 and drowning


>> >> But I will say that 520 with lightning flares works pretty well for this if you are being drowned by an executioner (not so well if it is a defender or combatant though).

>> Huh?

I pulled the log to show what I meant. My original assumption was that because the executioner was stunned, it allowed me to break free. Looking at it now it's possible that I just made a good roll since it isn't even 100% clear if the executioner was still stunned at the time or not. Note that the executioner stands up immediately after I break free.

Anyway... here's what I was referring to and why I think it might help (but now not 100% sure any more.)

>A triton executioner leaps at you with uncanny agility, and you feel your breath leave you as she slams into you with her full force! You feel yourself careening into the water, your head held back as you desperately gasp for air. Roundtime: 10 sec. Roundtime changed to 5 seconds.

>The raw elemental energy surrounding you suddenly sparks with electricity. Sparks surrounding you arc out and hit a triton executioner, stunning her! stand >You don't seem to be able to move your legs to do that. The elemental energy energizing you fades away. >stand You don't seem to be able to move your legs to do that. >look [Ruined Temple, Second Floor] A spiral staircase climbs up to third floor of the temple, and is flanked on either side by a large stone statue carved to resemble a large water droplet. The flooded water reaches to the statues' middles, where wavy patterns have been formed by years of erosion. A single tapestry, soaked with moisture, hangs from the northwestern wall, and a rusted iron bar rests opposite it. You also see the orange Faulkil disk, a triton executioner that appears stunned and some muck. Obvious exits: southeast, southwest >A triton executioner struggles to maintain her grip on you, but is unable to keep hold! >A triton executioner stands up with a grunt. >standYou stand back up. .cc 906 >Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Minor Fire... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a triton executioner. You hurl a stream of fire at a triton executioner! 

 AS: +454 vs DS: +333 with AvD: +34 + d100 roll: +32 = +187
  ... and hit for 102 points of damage!
  Flames engulf body.  Chest left a smoldering ruin.

The triton executioner collapses to the floor with a splash, gurgling once with a wrathful look on her face before expiring. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

-- Robert

A powerful whirlpool is suddenly overtaken by a windy vortex!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2431
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 12/23/2016 09:37 AM PST
Subject: Re: 550 and drowning


>I pulled the log to show what I meant. My original assumption was that because the executioner was stunned, it allowed me to break free. Looking at it now it's possible that I just made a good roll since it isn't even 100% clear if the executioner was still stunned at the time or not. Note that the executioner stands up immediately after I break free.

Oh yeah. I forgot all about the lightning aspect.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2433
Author: DRAFIX
Date: on 12/24/2016 04:01 AM PST
Subject: Re: Time Stop (550)


>An enormous rift crawler stares upward for a moment, seemingly focusing on a distant point. The area around its head begins to distort as an incredible high-frequency pulse ripples through the air, assailing your senses with a savage aural assault! You are frightened into immobility! >stop time Tapping into the lines of elemental energies traversing the world, you reach out and twist a few to your bidding. A golden hourglass materializes in front of you and you quickly turn it over, temporarily halting the flow of time in your immediate vicinity.

A sphere of dark ethereal ripples expands outward from you. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

>northwest >You don't seem to be able to move to do that. You don't seem to be able to move to do that.


Estild, Can 550 work with the damn warcries please? Really annoying I wasted my daily 550 for this :'(

Thanks.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2434
Author: DOUG
Date: on 12/25/2016 03:52 PM PST
Subject: Cold Snap Design Question - Bug?


Have a quick question I want to ask before I bug 512 from my observations and start throwing around log files.

I've been testing the bejeebers out of 512 and 917 / 510 / 903 / 910 / 906 / 907 / 908 combos at differing levels of play. And I've noticed something that now just grinds my teeth every time I see it.

New NPC - cast 512 - ward margin of 75 - rooted same NPC - cast 512 - ward margin of 15 - encased same NPC - cast any non-shattering / non-melting spell - damage same NPC - prep next spell AND THE DAMN BLOCK OF ICE MELTS!

Now, I like to think I'm a reasonable person - but having the entire block disappear in the minimum time without regard to the margin attained by the first cast?

Is the design intentional that when 'encased', and the lowest warding margin-based duration expires then the entire block of ice disappears?

If it's not, I'll be happy to bug it.

If it is, may I respectfully request that be reconsidered? In fact, my proposal would be simply to add the two durations together, each with a min / max result (8s / 25s), leading to a successfully encased creature (for that 24 mana and 6 seconds of cast round time) being immobilized for 16 - 50 seconds.

Putting this to the Fleur's test algorithm, Bind easily reaches 14 seconds and can exceed 75 seconds. Doesn't seem aligned well.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2435
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 12/25/2016 04:07 PM PST
Subject: Re: Cold Snap Design Question - Bug?


This sounds like a much more significant request than asking for the ice to simply not melt.

I never compared 512 to Bind though. Bind is more powerful in duration because it is a single-target disabler. 512 has always been compared to mass CS-based disablers such as 316, which were adjusted in duration to match the 512 duration at the time of the update.

It sounds like poor luck, and more of that lottery luck style RNG that wizards are subjected to more than other pures, but I wouldn't consider it a bug or unintentional design. The Wiki explicitly says that the second cast to encase the creatures refreshes the duration, so if the warding margin is lower, the duration is going to be lower.

However, neither 512 nor 316 last all THAT long, which is why it's important for the ice to not melt or to not require using more mana and time inefficient setups in order to accomplish the killing. Otherwise, the logical choice becomes to simply attempt to kill outright vs. even expending the 24 mana and time to try to encase something.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2436
Author: CANDIDE
Date: on 12/28/2016 08:47 PM PST
Subject: 520 lightning armor vs bounty cull tasks


Could 520 lightning effect stunning creatures count for bounty tasks? I haven't tested the 435 versions on time stop (550) and whether they counted as well but if they don't could they? I think this would be in line with how other spells are currently working.

GBB

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2437
Author: DOUG
Date: on 12/28/2016 10:42 PM PST
Subject: Re: 520 lightning armor vs bounty cull tasks


>>Could 520 lightning effect stunning creatures count for bounty tasks?

I'm not clear here - Stunning won't kill a creature, so 'counting' for that (bounty completion) doesn't make sense. But 520 shock effect does stun any creature that can be stunned, bounty-assigned or no, based on my experience. So I guess I just can't get my head around the ask.

>>I haven't tested the 435 versions on time stop (550) and whether they counted as well

Or maybe it is just me. I don't understand this one, either. ;/

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2438
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 12/29/2016 03:57 AM PST
Subject: Re: 520 lightning armor vs bounty cull tasks


Most disablers that deal no damage count for culling creature/bandit tasks, including 410, 316, and 1120, so it is correct that this is inconsistent with other design setups. Whether that is intentional or an oversight is the question.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2440
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 12/29/2016 12:01 PM PST
Subject: Re: 520 lightning armor vs bounty cull tasks


>I'm not clear here - Stunning won't kill a creature, so 'counting' for that (bounty completion) doesn't make sense. But 520 shock effect does stun any creature that can be stunned, bounty-assigned or no, based on my experience. So I guess I just can't get my head around the ask.

He's talking about getting credit for his bounty. i.e. he 520 shocks a bandit, other group member chops its head off and it dies.

You don't have to actually kill something to get bounty credit for it.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2441
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 12/29/2016 12:11 PM PST
Subject: Re: 520 lightning armor vs bounty cull tasks


Like other disablers, the stun effect will now contribute toward your kill.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2442
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 12/29/2016 12:35 PM PST
Subject: Re: 520 lightning armor vs bounty cull tasks


>Like other disablers, the stun effect will now contribute toward your kill.

Thank you very much for this quick fix. Can 610 also be reviewed to provide this benefit?

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2443
Author: DOUG
Date: on 12/29/2016 02:04 PM PST
Subject: Re: 520 lightning armor vs bounty cull tasks


>>He's talking about getting credit for his bounty. i.e. he 520 shocks a bandit, other group member chops its head off and it dies.

Ahh, see - that works. Soloist and all that, that's not where my mind went. I just like to see them stand around waiting for me to get back into the fray. And needless to say, I get that credit.

Thanks, Methais!

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2444
Author: DOUG
Date: on 12/29/2016 02:05 PM PST
Subject: Re: 520 lightning armor vs bounty cull tasks


Thanks Meister of the E!

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2445
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 12/29/2016 02:49 PM PST
Subject: Re: 520 lightning armor vs bounty cull tasks


LADYFLEUR
Can 610 also be reviewed to provide this benefit?

Done.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2446
Author: LADYFLEUR
Date: on 12/29/2016 03:01 PM PST
Subject: Re: 520 lightning armor vs bounty cull tasks


Thanks so much! This is great news.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2447
Author: MENOS
Date: on 12/29/2016 04:21 PM PST
Subject: Re: 520 lightning armor vs bounty cull tasks


So long as you are doing these things. What about reflecting arrows with a shield?

Sweet is the sound of the pouring rain, And the stream that falls from the hill to plain. Better than rain or rippling brook, Is a mug of beer inside this Took.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2448
Author: PFLATS
Date: on 12/29/2016 05:37 PM PST
Subject: Re: 520 lightning armor vs bounty cull tasks


How about Feint? I'm forcing stance and inflicting RT and then everyone else gets the kills =[

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2449
Author: CANDIDE
Date: on 12/29/2016 07:58 PM PST
Subject: Re: 520 lightning armor vs bounty cull tasks


Sweet and a big thanks.

GBB

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2450
Author: ROLFARD
Date: on 01/07/2017 04:12 PM PST
Subject: Rapidfire (515) Bug?


Are elemental rings supposed to make rapidfire behave like olden times?

>515 You recite a series of mystical phrases while raising your hands, invoking Rapid Fire... Your spell is ready. You gesture. You feel the magic surge through you. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > [ Rapid Fire: +0:01:00, 0:00:59 remaining. ]

>910 my band You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another! > You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band. You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again. [Spell re-prepared] Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. >910 my band You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another! > Seeing an opportunity, you accelerate time and empower your spell! You channel at a slim glossy eahnor band. You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again. [Spell re-prepared] Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. >910 my band You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another! > Seeing an opportunity, you accelerate time and empower your spell! You channel at a slim glossy eahnor band. You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again. [Spell re-prepared] Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. >910 my band You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another! > You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band. You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again. [Spell re-prepared] Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. >910 my band You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another! > You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band. You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again. [Spell re-prepared] Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. >910 my band You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another! > You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band. You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again. [Spell re-prepared] Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. >910 my band You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another! > You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band. You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again. [Spell re-prepared] Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. >910 my band You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another! > You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band. You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again. [Spell re-prepared] Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. >910 my band You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another! > You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band. You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again. [Spell re-prepared] Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. >910 my band You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another! > You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band. You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again. [Spell re-prepared] Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. >910 my band You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another! > You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band. You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again. [Spell re-prepared] Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. >910 my band You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another! > You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band. You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again. [Spell re-prepared] >910 my band Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another! > You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band. You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again. [Spell re-prepared] Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. >910 my band You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another! > Seeing an opportunity, you accelerate time and empower your spell! You channel at a slim glossy eahnor band. You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again. [Spell re-prepared] Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. >910 my band >910 my band You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another! > You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band. You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again. [Spell re-prepared] Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another! > You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band. You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again. [Spell re-prepared] Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. >910 my band You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another! > You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band. You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again. [Spell re-prepared] Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. >910 my band You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another! >910 my band You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band. You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again. [Spell re-prepared] Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another! >910 my band You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band. You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again. [Spell re-prepared] Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another! > You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band. You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again. [Spell re-prepared] Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. >910 my band You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another! >910 my band You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band. You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again. [Spell re-prepared] Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another! > You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band. You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again. [Spell re-prepared] Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. >910 my band You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another! > You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band. You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again. [Spell re-prepared] Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. >910 my band You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another! >910 my band You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band. You release your spell at the band and it tingles a bit, before calming once again. [Spell re-prepared] Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another! > You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band. You release your spell at the band and you can see the energy dance on the surface before dissipating. [Spell re-prepared] Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. >910 my band You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another! > You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band. You release your spell at the band and you can see the energy dance on the surface before dissipating. [Spell re-prepared] Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2451
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 01/07/2017 05:40 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapidfire (515) Bug?


>910 my band >You already have a spell readied! You must RELEASE it if you wish to prepare another! > >You gesture at a slim glossy eahnor band. >You release your spell at the band and you can see the energy dance on the surface before dissipating. >[Spell re-prepared] >Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

Happens with my fire band too. I like to view it as a non-combat way of leaving original Rapid Fire intact. Like if we had target dummies and Haste 2 only worked on them.

But at least we're the best band rechargers in the universe by far!

Hey wait...can we have target dummies in the game? That would actually be a really awesome thing for people to mess around on and test things with.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2452
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 01/07/2017 06:50 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapidfire (515) Bug?


> Hey wait...can we have target dummies in the game? That would actually be a really awesome thing for people to mess around on and test things with.

Sadly this is more complicated than it should be to make work 100% right. My food rats that I like to use for showing off new spell updates are my attempt at target dummies, but they aren't perfect yet.

Anyways, it's something I think about and try to work on every so often when I don't have more pressing projects.

~ Konacon

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2453
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 01/07/2017 10:21 PM PST
Subject: Re: Rapidfire (515) Bug?


>Sadly this is more complicated than it should be to make work 100% right. My food rats that I like to use for showing off new spell updates are my attempt at target dummies, but they aren't perfect yet.

>Anyways, it's something I think about and try to work on every so often when I don't have more pressing projects.

What if instead of an actual target dummy, you just clone a critter and make it just stand there, but give it a million HP with a massive HP regen rate that would make it impossible to kill?

Or if it does die to some instant kill mechanic (720, 519, etc.), it just comes back to life instantly with full health. Like liches but without the wait.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2454
Author: PEREGRINEFALCON
Date: on 01/08/2017 09:50 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapidfire (515) Bug?


>> What if instead of an actual target dummy, you just clone a critter and make it just stand there, but give it a million HP with a massive HP regen rate that would make it impossible to kill?

Can we get a 'Methais' clone for this? :-) And maybe a 'Hoy' clone as well?

-- Robert

A powerful whirlpool is suddenly overtaken by a windy vortex!

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2455
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: on 01/09/2017 10:16 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapidfire (515) Bug?


ROLFARD
Are elemental rings supposed to make rapidfire behave like olden times?

This should now be resolved. Thanks for reporting it.

GameMaster Estild

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2456
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 01/10/2017 09:26 AM PST
Subject: Re: Rapidfire (515) Bug?


>Can we get a 'Methais' clone for this? :-) And maybe a 'Hoy' clone as well?

I think we need a Konacon clone so we can call it Kloneacon.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2457
Author: CANDIDE
Date: on 01/10/2017 07:58 PM PST
Subject: 502


Can we get 502 to have an unlockable element for each lore type? Its frustrating to not use this spell because I can only combo it with my attuned Element or to have to at worst script the process so the element that randomly comes out automatically has a follow up with the bolt that corresponds to the 502 I just casted.

Could this spell also give a boost to combo from things like 512X2 and Impact shatter from 510 or 505? Or Water and electricity combo?

I also would still like this to work with giving CS and SMR spells some boost.

GBB

ps I find it sad that we never got back to Estild on a state of the Union response to wizardry or if we did I never saw it. Fail on our/my part.

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2458
Author: TRIPLEGAME226
Date: on 01/12/2017 05:36 AM PST
Subject: Re: 502


502 could use some love as being more than just a mediocre set up spell for 2 extra bolts. Should let the next bolt or two be aimed or something instead or in addition to the bolt DS effect.

~ Methais

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2459
Author: DOUG
Date: on 01/12/2017 07:43 AM PST
Subject: Re: 502


And while we're considering this loving touch to 502, I'd like to also be able to summon my unicorn with it, polish all my gold wands with it, turn all my silver wands into gold wands with it, and use it as a totally private two-way messaging tool with my significant other lady cleric friend.

I mean - hell, we're spending 2 whole frackin' mana here!

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2460
Author: DOUG
Date: on 01/12/2017 07:55 AM PST
Subject: Re: 502


>>I find it sad that we never got back to Estild on a state of the Union response to wizardry or if we did I never saw it. Fail on our/my part.

Be happy! Lace up your boots and join in.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2461
Author: CANDIDE
Date: on 01/12/2017 11:41 AM PST
Subject: Re: 502


"Be happy! Lace up your boots and join in.-Doug"

I thought I was joined in? I'm not in the band? NOOOOO!!!! Let me in! That being said please reread the sentence. "I find it sad" does not mean I am sad.  :)

I know it is horrible to ask for things that make sense (to the poster at least). I asked for a unicorn on my last birthday as well. I was going to go complain about a spell being too good but I caught myself when I found my porridge/spell just right.

If 502 is a set up only spell then it should set up our spells not just bolts. If we are to be a combo spell class then make it so.

This has been done before but lets look at what 702 and 302 does and compare. --interlude-- Empaths are running around going what about us?!!?! Wizards should just be happy to have a 502 that does something! --end interlude-- Even though it does less damage than 302 and way less damage than 702. I thought the whole point of the spell was to be a low damage spell that was still useful in many situations ie 302/702. I mean war wizards will find 502 more useful than a CS/SMR wizard. That makes sense.

GBB

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2462
Author: DOUG
Date: on 01/12/2017 12:41 PM PST
Subject: Re: 502


Heh, great post! I appreciated the delivery.

You are - but if you want to help edit it, that's going on (and has been for too long, true) right now! Alternatively, it is still my intent to publish for general review (which you are most definitely in. ;)

I know this is now approaching 4 months in process. I'm sorry. Life and all that.

Doug

Category: Wizards
Topic: Major Elemental Circle
Message #: 2463
Author: GS4-KONACON
Date: on 01/12/2017 12:44 PM PST
Subject: Re: 502


> --interlude-- Empaths are running around going what about us?

Their day of reckoning is nigh!

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/ca/50/95/ca509519ed36576ee1d78d0782a697bd.gif

~ Konacon

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