2024-01-25 - A Discourse on the Arkati of Knowledge (log)

Magister Raelee Svala & Issiah of The Order of Eternal Light debated Fash'lo'nae and Lumnis at Lumnis' Temple in Solhaven.

(Ambient messaging, some player actions and non-related conversation have been removed to improve clarity.)

Event Log

[Lumnis' Temple, Gardens - 13187 - 13187] (u4742102)
Majestic oak trees sway in the breeze over a well-manicured emerald green lawn.  Dominating the center of the garden, cascading waters flow from a towering marble fountain.  Stylized garden beds, brimming with lavender and roses, create a sweet scent that drifts gently in the air.  In a stately fashion, a pair of elegantly carved drake statues, one of ebon and one of gold, flank the approach to a wide, gold-flecked stone door.  You notice a white wrought iron gate center-set with a golden scroll and a stone path.
Obvious paths: none

Bakarus says, "Let us begin then."

Bakarus recites reverently:

    "Eternal Light, all.  I am pleased and most grateful you have decided to join us this evening."

Issiah rubs his Lumnis symbol.

Bakarus simply says, "I am Bakarus, a humble pilgrim of the Order of Eternal Light."

Bakarus nods respectfully.

Bakarus says, "This evening we are truly blessed to have scholars speaking on two sides of learning.  Priest Issiah will begin by teaching us about the Lady Lumnis, wife of Koar."

Bakarus hisses with narrowed eyes before returning a forced smile.

Bakarus glances around the area.

Issiah smiles.

Bakarus says, "Following Issiah, we learn about The Grandfather, Fash'lo'nae from someone who scarcely needs an introduction, Magister Svala."

Bakarus glances between Raelee and Issiah.

Raelee nods at Bakarus.

Speaking to Issiah, Bakarus says, "At your convenience my friend, please begin."

Bakarus smiles at Issiah.

Issiah says, "Thank ya Bakarus."

Issiah clears his throat.

Bakarus folds his hands.

Issiah closes his eyes for a moment.

Issiah says, "Good evenin', thank ya all fer comin'. I'm honored to speak to ya tonight. I'd like to start wit' some basic facts about Lumnis, then I'll read a few passages from the scriptures and try'n add a li'l commentary."

Issiah says, "Lumnis is the Goddess of Knowledge and Wisdom. She is the wife and consort of Koar, though she is not the "Queen" of the Arkati. She is the mother of Lorminstra and the twins Ronan and Phoen, the mother-in-law of Oleani, and the grandmother of Tonis."

Issiah says, "Lumnis' symbol is a golden scroll overlaying five conjoined circles. The circles represent the Spheres of Knowledge: red (Planar), blue (Spiritual), black (Chaos), green (Elemental), and white (Order)."

Issiah removes a leather tome from in his spidersilk pack.

Issiah opens his leather tome.

Issiah clears his throat.

Issiah recites:

    "History of Lumnis part 1:
     Lumnis glanced up,
     Allowing the sunlit world to fill her lovely grey eyes,
     And she greeted life with a smile and a sigh,
     For already she knew that knowledge held both grace and sorrow."

Issiah recites:

    "Legend tells us that sunlight striking the glassy surface of a deep pool
     Caused the birth of the Arkati named Lumnis.
     She arose, product of light and reflection,
     And she was both beautiful and wise in the moment she first drew breath."

Issiah says, "Lumnis' birth being attributed to Light and Reflection makes plain the domains in which she holds sway: Enlightenment and Wisdom. The first passage shows an innate wisdom. Even in the moment of her birth she realized that knowledge is not an end in itself, but must be tempered by insight and empathy."

Issiah recites:

    "A flight of parrots,
     Their plumage bright with the colors of scarlet, blue, gold and emerald
     Heralded the occasion
     By lifting from the trees surrounding the pool in a glorious cloud."

Issiah says, "The order of The Daughters of Lumnis wear hoods of multicolored feathers in reference to this passage of the legend."

Issiah turns his leather tome to the next page.

Issiah recites:

    "History of Lumnis part 2:
     Lumnis sat with holy men as they penned first scrolls, then books.
     She stood in the framework of libraries as they were built,
     And later filled with their precious treasure of books and scrolls.
     She knelt with clerics as they learned the words that would animate a lifeless corpse with living breath.
     She silently mouthed the words of the spell that shielded a wizard from certain doom.
     She followed the drills along with a soldier who was learning shield and spear.
     And she held the hand of a ranger as she discovered a new blossom that would mean the difference between life and death.
     She rejoiced in every form of knowledge, every act of discovery or creation."

Issiah sighs.

Issiah says, "Regius Professor at Chantry College Aradhai referred to this passage as "THE summation of Lumnis; scholarship, theology, spellcraft, martial arts, medicine, herbology... all disciplines of study fall under the Lady's purview"."

Issiah recites:

    "For generations, Lumnis walked the lands,
     No stranger to those who sought wisdom in its many forms."

Issiah says, "The itinerant preacher Fasten Bolbus is said to have read this passage as a young halfling, and was inspired to walk the lands and offer aid and council to any who were willing to teach him their trade in return. In some accounts Fasten became the most renowned paladin in Kesta Dahl. Other stories have him ending his days as a rich merchant or skilled enchanter, or even in certain tall tales, Kai's personal blacksmith."

Issiah smiles.

Issiah turns his leather tome to the next page.

Issiah recites:

    "Arkati of Liabo Part 9
     Lumnis' power lies in her understanding of the interrelationships of the Spheres of Knowledge:
     (Elemental, Spiritual, Chaos, Order and Planar) and her intuitive grasp of their intricacies"."

Issiah recites:

    "Lumnis will never give an answer outright, however.
     She would rather advise and guide,
     Allowing those who seek aid to find the answer on their own."

Issiah says, "These two passages are taught to young acolytes of Lumnis at an early age, specifically the phrases 'understanding the interrelationships of the Spheres' and 'advise and guide'; the latter has become something of an informal greeting amongst clergy of Lumnis."

Issiah turns his leather tome to the next page.

Issiah recites:

    "History of Lumnis part 2:
     Koar forged a treaty between the bitter caucus (Liabo and Lornon) that stands to this day.
     It is said that the diplomatic skills of Lumnis,
     Standing beside the angry Koar and doing what she could to mitigate,
     Was the honey that enabled the angry factions to reach a settlement."

Issiah says, "This story is well known to both the clergy and the laity of Nydds. Lumnis' willingness to treat with the Lornon Arkati, even her most bitter adversaries (Fash'lo'nae and Eorgina), is an example of tolerance and a willingness to learn from those with whom one disagrees; or at least to attempt to understand their motivations and rationale."

Issiah clears his throat.

Issiah says, "S'cuse me."

Issiah recites:

    "Lumnis spends much of her time contemplating all she has seen, all she has experienced, and all she has loved.
     However, she still watches and protects bastions of learning, and congregations pledged to the furtherance of knowledge.
     And on very rare occasions, it is said she will hold the hand of any who despair of achieving their goal of understanding,
     Giving encouragement and hope."

Issiah recites:

    "She contemplated all she had observed during the ages,
     And found solace in her memories"

Issiah says, "These passages show that reflection and insight on what one has learned is as at least as important as raw knowledge. Abbot Chursel of The Rings taught that all people are followers of Lumnis if they look back on their experiences and actions and learn lessons from them. He often said that "the blessings of Lumnis are subtle but profound"."

Issiah smiles.

Issiah says, "A quick aside, the passage "she still watches and protects bastions of learning" I believe strongly includes this Order."

Issiah winks.

Issiah rubs his chin thoughtfully.

Bakarus smiles.

Bakarus says, "Let us hope."

Bakarus glances up.

(Issiah adjusts his glasses.)

Issiah closes his leather tome.

Issiah says, "I thank you all for attending, and may the Lady of Enlightenment grant you all wisdom."

Issiah rubs his Lumnis symbol.

Bakarus says, "Excellently done, Priest of Lumnis."

Bakarus says, "You bring her much honor."

Issiah says, "Obliged."

(Player applause)

Issiah put a leather tome in his green jacket.

Bakarus turns to face Raelee.

Issiah sits down.

Raelee nods.

Raelee says, "Now, let us discuss Fash'lo'nae... the Grandfather."

Perigourd grunts.

Raelee says, "My intent, this evening, is not to linger for too long on the basics of who the Grandfather is and what he stands for."

Raelee surreptitiously glances at Perigourd.

Raelee says, "He is the Arkati of knowledge - particularly that which is 'forbidden', magic, and libraries."

Perigourd glances over his shoulder.

Missoni rests a gentle hand on Perigourd's arm.

(Raelee begins counting off on her fingers as she continues with a series of basic facts.)

Raelee says, "He is typically symbolized by a slit-pupiled eye, akin to that of an Erithian, in yellow or gold on a field of grey."

Raelee continues, "He is typically rendered as an elderly man, though this depiction is not universal."

(Raelee suddenly folds her fingers, as if halting her count.)

Raelee says, "... and I could go on about preferred gems, locations of temples, and other basic facts.  However, I am operating under the assumption that most gathered here have a general familiarity with the Grandfather on a conceptual basis."

Raelee continues, ""... and if I am incorrect... he is, as I mentioned, the Arkati of libraries.  That would be an ideal place to educate oneself on these particulars."

Raelee says, "Rather, I am going to discuss Fash'lo'nae's philosophy and the place it holds in our society, both as a compliment and a contrast to that of Lumnis."

Speaking to Issiah, Raelee warns, "I may ambush you with at least a question or two, when I am finished."

Issiah smirks.

Issiah says, "I knew it."

Issiah winks.

Issiah chuckles.

Raelee says, "You may note that Lumnis, as Issiah just discussed, also claims knowledge and magic."

Raelee says, "Thus, there is often significant overlap in their philosophies, in the actions taken in the name of their following."

(Raelee makes a vague gesture towards Meril.)

Raelee says, "Meril and I discussed this briefly last night, in fact.  The Erithians do not view Lumnis and the Grandfather as rivals.  In Atan Erith, they are often worshiped together.  There, they are viewed as two sides of the same coin, as it were.  The temple of Wisdom in Eloth-Ra, honors both equally - demonstrating a necessity in their contrast."

Raelee adds, "Light and dark often cannot be defined without the other, afterall."

Raelee continues, "The Illistim honor them both as patrons, without relegating Fash'lo'nae to the shadows."

Issiah smiles.

Meril cocks her head.

Raelee asks, "Now I ask, what is the difference between the philosophies of the two?"

(Raelee quirks an eyebrow and glances expectantly at those gathered.)

Missoni carefully asks, "The ah...forbidden aspect?"

Arenglae raises her hand.

Speaking to Raelee, Traiva asks, "Do you wish us to answer?"

Raelee nods at Traiva.

Speaking to Missoni, Raelee says, "That is one aspect that is often stated quite explicitly, yes."

Raelee nods at Arenglae.

Murharzarm says, "Fash'lo'nae feels like more like a context of recklessness or going against society norms in search of knowledge compared to Lumnis."

Hadya quietly says, "One places caution and limitations on knowledge, the other does not."

Lylia suggests, "A matter of degree rather than of fundamental kind. He will go where she does not."

Arenglae says, "Fash'lo'nae has no limit to what he is said to do in order to obtain knowledge.  Lumnis is more reserved in that aspect."

Kothos says, "Fash'lo'nae disregards safety for the sake of the gain.  Curiosity is the forefront of every virtue."

Tikba says, "Fash'lo'nae believes in knowledge for the sake of knowledge."

Bakarus says, "A morality regarding how the knowledge is gained and shared perhaps."

Raelee says, "You raise many valid points.  I will be elaborating on some of those."

Traiva says, "As Issiah said of Lumnis: Knowledge is to be tempered, not all knowledge is worth sharing. But Fash'lo'nae takes in knowledge for Knowledge's sake, with no judgment of whether it is "good" or "evil"."

(Raelee holds up a hand, in a faint halting gesture.)

Raelee says, "I will continue."

Raelee says, "Earlier this month, I offered a lecture on logic.  Some of you, gathered here tonight, were present for that.  There was a segment that I excised from the final presentation that discussed the collision of logic and faith.  I am going to leverage some of those thoughts here, instead."

Raelee says, "When one makes a logical argument surrounding philosophy and philosophical ideals, there is often something heralded as an ultimate - something that all actions should lead towards.  In logical terms, we often refer to this as a 'given' or a 'premise.'."

Raelee says, "In religious philosophical arguments, faith is often wrapped up in such a premise.  We may not be able to prove that any given ideal is the ultimate ideal, but we accept that it is... perhaps because a higher power has declared it so, and we trust in their wisdom."

(Raelee pauses for a moment.)

Raelee clearly repeats, "Wisdom."

Raelee says, "Wisdom typically has two definitions."

Issiah rubs his chin thoughtfully.

Raelee explains, "The first is simply scholarly knowledge or learning.  Tonight, I am imparting my *wisdom* on this subject."

Raelee says, "The second is knowledge of what is true or correct, coupled with just judgment as to action based upon that knowledge."

Raelee says, "When we describe the spheres of influence of the two Arkati at hand, only Lumnis claims wisdom."

Raelee says, "Lumnis and her following, perhaps, hold wisdom as that philosophical ideal."

Raelee says, "The Grandfather and his, they generally hold knowledge as that ultimate instead."

Raelee says, "... though the two concepts often have an inextricable relationship."

Raelee says, "I believe some, perhaps uncharitably, think that this indicates those who follow the Grandfather have abandoned wisdom."

Raelee continues, "... that his scholars research without thought to consequence, that we only ask the question of 'could we?' and never 'should we?'."

Raelee says, "I often think, myself, that it is a matter of temperance.  There are some consequences Lumnis will not tolerate, but the Grandfather will.  But temperance is a scale, there truly is no single, absolute line that one can draw through their philosophies to say an action falls on one side or the other."

Raelee says, "They simply blend into each other, and the darkness... which is necessary to define the light... falls to the Grandfather."

Raelee says, "And, the Grandfather's sphere regards the 'forbidden' knowledge."

Speaking to Missoni, Raelee mentions, "As you said."

Missoni nods slightly.

Raelee continues, "... that often is framed as that which we should not know, because it is somehow too dangerous."

Missoni wrinkles her nose.

Raelee clearly asks, "As for why we need the philosophy of the Grandfather?"

Raelee clearly states, "It is because we need to dare to ask the question of *why* it is forbidden."

Kothos says, "Indecision yields more loss than a bad decision."

(Raelee begins to pace slowly before the gathered audience as she launches into a story.)

Raelee begins, "There is a legend, regarding the Grandfather, that when he first appeared and began to walk these lands, he imparted gifts of knowledge to many of the 'lesser' races."

Raelee says, "One tribe suddenly grasped the secret of fire."

Raelee says, "... a group of Kindred, remote in the mountains, learned of razern deposits..."

Raelee says, "... a tribe of forest gnomes suddenly developed enhanced trapping techniques..."

Raelee says, "... and an elf was taught the very concept of written language, in chalk upon a rock."

Raelee gives a slight flick of her wrist, and a small shard of black rock suddenly appears in her hand!

(Raelee briefly holds a shard of rock aloft, displaying it to all who can see: The shard appears almost crystalline, its fractured edges gleaming with geometric clarity and rigid form.  Deep pitting mars its surface, a telltale sign of its doubtlessly incredibly ancient origins.  Scrawled across the mottled blackness of the stone's natural hue are glassy white marks like that of chalk, yet they look as if they've been burned into the stone's structure permanently by some powerful force.)

Raelee mentions, "This is a shard of that very rock.  I understand the majority of it is still intact and held by the Illistim, minus the pieces that have found their way into other hands."

Raelee flicks her wrist and a tiny fiery glow obscures a small shard of black rock briefly before it disappears entirely from her hand!

Peatwyn gasps.

Raelee says, "The sudden growth in the primitive mortals attracted the notice of the Drakes upon Nagothyrm."

Raelee says, "A young drake by the name of Vel'Athorre, was intrigued by what Fash'lo'nae did and brought him before the elder drakes."

Raelee slowly says, "The Drakes, save for Vel'Athorre, were... incensed."

Raelee emphatically says, "The mortal races were naught but vermin to them, and Fash'lo'nae gave them the power to grow."

Raelee asks, "Why was this knowledge forbidden?"

Raelee says, "Yes, it was dangerous."

Raelee says, "Yes, people amongst the mortal races were hurt.  Fires burned down villages, razern weapons killed people, trapping may have imbalanced nature."

Raelee adds, "And yes, Fash'lo'nae watched this all quite dispassionately.  He did this because he needed to understand, and even the negative consequences must be observed, understood, and absorbed."

Raelee says, "There was consequence, harmful consequence... but also remarkable growth, which then opened the path towards more growth and more knowledge."

Raelee asks, "... where would we be without this knowledge?"

Raelee suggests, "Likely still living in caves and trying to sort out how rock hammers work."

Raelee says, "... but again, the Drakes regarded us as vermin.  They did not care if we killed each other.  They cared that we could grow our own power.  They cared because our power could, one day, threatened their own."

Issiah smirks.

Raelee says, "Knowledge is not always forbidden because it endangers the individual.  It is more frequently forbidden because it endangers established power structures."

Raelee says, "I am not going to pretend to impart benevolence upon his actions."

Raelee states, "He did not grant us fire out of charity.  He did so because he wanted to see what we would do with it."

Raelee says, "The Drakes accused Fash'lo'nae of disregarding all consequence, and not even thinking of consequence."

Issiah smiles.

Raelee says, "Instead, he illustrated complex hypotheses, detailed variables, many possible branches of outcomes.  He considered it all.  Brilliant conjecture."

Issiah nods.

Raelee says, "How society could grow if we could merely understand how to cook our food and keep ourselves warm on a cold winter night."

Raelee states, "The Drakes thought him a petulant child, but when they realized this was a thoughtful action and not whimsy... they were intensely angered.  His actions were purposeful, and even though the intent was not to threaten the Drakes, that was the perceived result."

Raelee mentions, "I mentioned that one of the popular renderings of the Grandfather is that of an elderly man.  Another popular one is that of a burned and molten man."

Raelee adds, "There is a statue in Ta'Illistim that shows three faces of the Grandfather - the molten version amongst them."

Raelee explains, "The image of a molten man is because in their rage, the Drakes nearly tore Fash'lo'nae asunder, burning him terribly with their fire.  They only stopped because Koar, in his own passion regarding justice, convinced them he should be spared.,"

Raelee evenly states, "Sometimes the lessons must be burned into our flesh."

Raelee says, "... and this may be one of the Grandfather's most critical roles in our society.  His philosophy pushes us to grow, even when others do not want us to.  Even when the bounds of society say we should not."

Raelee asks, "... but often it is society that needs to grow, no?"

Issiah nods.

(Raelee finally pauses her casual pacing for a moment.)

Raelee says, "Now, let me give an example that is slightly more contemporary and less steeped in our most primitive history."

Raelee begins, "In the early 48th century, a scholar by the name of Lelandri studied at the Halls of the Patriarch in Nydds - this is the college at which many of those who enter service to the Church of Koar study."

Issiah smiles.

Raelee says, "She became known for holding seminars, many secret, with her fellow students."

Raelee asks, "Now why were they secret?"

Cryheart asks, "Cause they were forbidden?"

Speaking to Cryheart, Raelee asks, "They were.  But why?"

Raelee adds, "A mostly rhetorical question."

Murharzarm asks, "Because they went against the precepts of the Church of Koar and society of the time and likely challenged the existing power structure thereof?"

Cryheart asks, "Cause they are dangerous and a threat?"

Raelee explains, "The instructors within the Halls of the Patriarch grew displeased - it was their place to dispense information, not the students' place."

Raelee nods at Murharzarm.

Issiah nods at Murharzarm.

Speaking to Murharzarm, Raelee says, "They threatened an established power structure.  The Church teaches, the students listen."

Raelee says, "They were not advocating slaughtering children on altars or other such nonsense.  They were merely advocating for and engaging in the process of sharing ideas."

The voice of Oishian asks, "Hmm. Was she burned?"

Raelee glances around the area.

Raelee says, "She was not burned, no."

Raelee says, "Upon questioning her, the instructors were shocked to learn that Lelandri declared her allegiance had shifted to the Grandfather over Koar, and she was promptly expelled."

Cryheart says, "Ahhh."

Raelee clearly states, "Over thirty students are said to have followed her out of the Halls."
Speaking to Raelee, Kothos says, "The dialogue process of pedagogy is often considered controversial, as you said."

Raelee says, "Given that Nydds is often the center of academic inquiry in the Empire... controversial viewpoints are often tolerated there in ways they are not in other regions."

Issiah adopts an agreeable expression.

Raelee says, "Thus, her seminars were able to continue... simply independently and outside of the Halls."

Raelee says, "Her group of followers became known as the Erudites of Fash'lo'nae.  They continue to hold seminars in Nydds to this day, in honor of Lelandri - mostly preaching the importance of sharing and spreading knowledge, that knowledge should not be forbidden."

Raelee says, "I will digress briefly..."

Raelee adds, "... some of this may merely be about politics and appearance.  The Empire holds Koar at the center of its philosophical and religious life.  In scholarly circles, Lumnis as his partner, consort, wife, whatever one labels it as, is given great reverence."

Raelee says, "As the two are often held in opposition - even if it is not necessary... to worship Fash'lo'nae is an indirect affront to Koar."

Issiah smiles.

Raelee adds, "... ignoring that Koar has shown support for him, and defended his ways in front of the Drakes."

Tikba mildly says, "Politics can be so complex."

Speaking neutrally to Tikba, Raelee says, "Mmm."

Raelee says, "But at the core of it, the Erudites, outside of Nydds, largely operate in the shadows because they do not appear to fit in established power structures."

Murharzarm says, "Forbidden or not itself is almost always a political question in itself."

Raelee says, "Some have caused harm - I will not pretend they have not.  But the group as a whole is largely academic in nature and quite peaceful."

Cryheart says, "Power structures essentially want to control."

Raelee says, "Of course, I cannot finish this line of thought without mentioning magic."

Raelee says, "Both Lumnis and Fash'lo'nae claim magic as their sphere, as I have mentioned."

Raelee says, "While I cannot provide any statistics, I would argue that magical knowledge is the most common category that is forbidden."

Issiah agrees with Raelee.

Raelee says, "Some of this relates back to my discussion on power structures - magical power is often a predictor of political power."

Raelee says, "And yes, magical research can be intensely dangerous."

Raelee asks, "But it is often necessary for the betterment of society, no?"

Raelee says, "I often point towards the Empathic circle as a core example of this."

Issiah smiles.

Raelee asks, "How many here would be dead... simply, absolutely dead... if not for an Empath?"

Raelee glances around the area.

Issiah says, "We'd all be long decayed without it."

Kothos says, "All of us, at a guess."

Raelee nods at Kothos.

Kothos nods at Issiah.

Raelee says, "I doubt that I would have exited my adolescence alive."

Raelee says, "Now here is another question to ponder..."

Raelee asks, "How many people endured physical harm in the development of these rote spells that we rely upon?"

Raelee asks, "How many people were killed or inflicted with pain?"

Raelee slowly asks, "What horrendous disfigurements may have occurred?"

Gestaul says, "I've seen many a limb lost when singing to a gem."

Speaking to Raelee, Kothos says, "Mostly those due to the lack of practice."

Raelee says, "Consequence comes both in the short and the long term.  The short term consequence of magical research can be horrible - with the long term consequence being... remarkable."

Gestaul says, "Or lack of wisdom."

Issiah says, "But in the development she means."

Speaking to Issiah, Raelee says, "Precisely."

Raelee says, "Those spells took centuries to refine, and I suspect the road was not pretty."

Raelee says, "And my point in all of this is sometimes the risk is necessary, and this is something the philosophy of the Grandfather embraces... perhaps to an extreme at times."

Raelee says, "I respect what Lumnis stands for and recognize the place her philosophy holds in society.  I, as a known adherent to the Grandfather, have no desire to abandon wisdom."

Raelee recites:

    "Action, Consequence, Results."

Raelee explains, "This is a popular mantra within the Grandfather's following.  I am uncertain where it began, but it was popularized in the writings of Vaelsoth Inzuniel, a Watcher of the Eternal Eye."

Raelee says, "It illustrates that we should also be contemplating the consequences of our learning and we should always learn from those consequences."

Raelee says, "Those who have worked with me in a laboratory or field research setting have likely heard me scold someone for merely acting on the question of 'What if?' without contemplating it further."

Raelee says, "I think some believe that is how the Grandfather's adherents act - an almost whimsical approach to acquiring knowledge."

Raelee says, "Yet as the example with the Drakes illustrates, it should not be.  Fash'lo'nae acted upon a detailed hypothesis, he contemplated the potential consequences very deeply.  Only then, did he act... and he accepted both the good and the bad that came from it all."

Speaking to Issiah, Raelee says, "If I may focus upon you for a moment..."

Issiah nods.

Speaking to Issiah, Raelee asks, "If you were to describe the core difference between Lumnis and Fash'lo'nae, what would you suggest it is?"

Issiah rubs his chin thoughtfully.

Issiah says, "Well, there's a story about when the two first met..."

Raelee nods at Issiah.

Speaking to Issiah, Raelee says, "I do believe I know this one."

Speaking to Issiah, Raelee suggests, "Continue."

Issiah says, "Fash'lo'nae had come to observe a rather powerful warlord who had been rampaging across the countryside, cleaving a trail of blood and ashes in his wake."

Issiah says, "He wondered what would happen if the warlord were given magical powers."

Raelee interjects, "Magic does often represent a growth in power, and not just direct magical power."

Issiah says, "Sorry, it's a bit hazy..."

Issiah removes a leather tome from in his green jacket.

Issiah opens his leather tome.

Issiah says, "Sorry."

Issiah says, "Lumnis interrupted this action, and Fash'lo'nae's response was to disintegrate the warlord, to in turn see what would her reaction would be."

Issiah says, "I guess the biggest difference to me is that Fash'lo'nae expects and accepts consequences, but doesn't particularly care what they are."

Speaking to Issiah, Raelee says, "Fair."

Raelee says, "In that story, as I know it, Lumnis attempted to halt Fash'lonae... for she knew the damage that warlord would enact, given the power of magic.  She did not care to see innocent individuals killed in this experiment."

Issiah says, "Now mind you, I'm from Nydds myself, and have no ill will towards the Grandfather or his adherents. As you said the Erudites have been in the city for centuries."

Issiah says, "Yes true."

Raelee says, "And Fash'lo'nae, of course, did not empower this man for desire of destruction, but to dispassionately observe the outcome."

Raelee nods at Issiah.

Raelee evenly says, "... and imparting magic to the mortal races certainly did have many interesting results..."

Speaking to Issiah, Raelee adds, "Thank you."

Issiah smiles.

Raelee suggests, "Perhaps it is Lumnis who places more emphasis on the preemptive contemplation of consequence, and Fash'lo'nae who ponders what those consequences teach us."

Issiah says, "That it did."

Issiah rubs his chin thoughtfully.

Raelee suggests, "Perhaps there is no core difference, and they merely represent two ends of a scale, and our pursuits of knowledge all fall somewhere in between."

Raelee asks, "... either way, they are both necessary, no?"

Raelee glances around the area.

Issiah adopts an agreeable expression.

Issiah says, "I would say so, yes."

Raelee says, "It is important for society to have a place for those who are willing to push the boundaries of knowledge, for without those individuals, our growth may be severely tempered."

Murharzarm says, "Lumnis feels like knowledge which essentially serves the status quo of a society, while Fash'lo'nae is that which clashes against it."

Kothos says, "Theory and practice."

Raelee carefully asks, "... and who benefits from that, truly?"

Kothos says, "Curiosity."

Cryheart says, "We learn how to pick ourselves up and continue."

Issiah closes his leather tome.

Issiah put a leather tome in his spidersilk pack.

Raelee seriously concludes, "Someone often does, but it may not be us."

(Player applause)

Meril quietly says, "If Lumnis served only the 'status quo', we would also only be living in caves."

Bakarus says, "I cannot thank you both enough."

Speaking to Bakarus, Raelee asks, "Perhaps we should see if there are questions?"

Kothos says, "Wonderful presentation, both of you.  Thank you."

Lachonus approvingly compliments, "Well stated, both of you."

Bakarus says, "It was truly an inspiring evening.  And yes, let us have a few questions...the floor is open."

Bakarus glances around the area.

Kothos raises his hand.

Lylia says, "Both quite brilliant, and all the more so when set alongside one another, like jewels and precious metal."

Raelee nods at Kothos.

Speaking to Raelee, Kothos says, "You seemed to suggest that giving us writing and fire and so on was the start of an experiment."

Speaking to Raelee, Kothos asks, "What was the hypothesis?"

Kothos smiles at Raelee.

Issiah smiles.

Speaking to Kothos, Raelee says, "I truly wish I could answer that with a concise, accurate statement."

Kothos says, "But a hunch will do."

Kothos grins at Raelee.

Lachonus quietly offers, "Perhaps he was able to see more potential in us than the others..."

Raelee says, "As one might expect, this was not precisely recorded in history.  One assumes it would rely upon Fash'lo'nae telling us directly, himself."

Lachonus looks thoughtful for a moment, then shrugs.

Kothos nods in agreement at Lachonus.

Raelee adds, "We were just learning to write, afterall."

Gestaul says, "Or perhaps the state of things at the time were just boring to Fash'lo'nae."

Meril raises her hand.

Speaking to Raelee, Kothos says, "Perhaps the experiment still goes on."

Meliyara notes, "And even then, perhaps the answer would not be accurate, but another experiment."

Kothos smiles.

Raelee says, "But if I were to guess, it would be that these simple things were the foundational building blocks of society... and the desire was to observe if a society could grow with just these small additions."

Speaking to Kothos, Raelee says, "Oh it does, no doubt."

Speaking to Raelee, Kothos says, "Thank you."

Peatwyn says, "I have a question for either or both of the speakers. Whomever really.  It is certainly less important than belligerent trolls outside of the Frontier."

Raelee nods at Peatwyn.

Issiah says, "By all means."

Peatwyn asks, "When we learn something, is it like a chalk outline around something very real?"

Peatwyn asks, "Is it pointing at something that exists?"

Arenglae studies Peatwyn, giving him an intense consideration.

Lylia raises her hand.

Lylia gazes with interest at Peatwyn.

Lylia says, "You always ask interesting questions."

Peatwyn asks, "Or is it rather more us learning about ourselves?"

Peatwyn says, "This is how it seems to us."

Issiah rubs his chin thoughtfully.

Kothos nods thoughtfully at Peatwyn.

Peatwyn says, "I don't think we personally ever really get THERE."

Peatwyn asks, "But, that isn't the point of the picnic, is it?"

Issiah says, "I would say the initial learning is like the outline, and reflection and practice leads to the wisdom, the filling in of the outline, if you will."

Speaking to Peatwyn, Raelee says, "Even Fash'lo'nae himself is not yet omniscient.  There is much he does not know."

Raelee says, "I think we must learn about ourselves, because our own experience and bias can color our perception of what we learn."

Issiah agrees with Raelee.

Raelee says, "But much of what we learn is very much outside of ourselves."

Peatwyn says, "Is not all of what we know."

Peatwyn asks, "Explained by something else, maybe?"

Raelee says, "And much like the Grandfather was able to observe that warlord without emotion, we need to be able to do that as well... to learn without emotion or bias, to better pursue unfettered truths."

Peatwyn asks, "A lightning bolt make fire, but maybe it's just that color blue?"

Speaking to Raelee, Kothos says, "Emotion can be motivation, however."

Speaking to Peatwyn, Raelee says, "That is perhaps why I appreciate mathematics to the degree that I do - I often like to think of it as the language of universal truth."

Issiah nods at Raelee.

Speaking to Raelee, Lylia says, "Somewhere, I am certain Xorus' ears just sprang to attention."

Jaysehn asks, "Oh?"

Bakarus asks, "Are there other questions for our speakers?"

Bakarus begins chuckling at Lylia!

Lylia raises her hand.

Bakarus nods.

Meril raises her hand.

Lylia says, "Yes."

Kothos says, "Even fear- that which holds curiosity prisoner often enough- can push one to new levels of survival."

Speaking to Lylia, Raelee says, "I will discuss math with him at any point he wishes."

Peatwyn quickly exclaims, "Thank-you-so-much!"

Issiah chuckles.

Lylia says, "My question is to both of you, and it pertains to the nature of wisdom and to that warlord..."

Raelee nods at Peatwyn.

Bakarus nods.

Raelee nods at Lylia.

Speaking to Raelee, Lylia says, "And that would be at every point, I believe."

Lylia raises her voice in merry laughter.

Lylia asks, "In this parable of the powerful and dangerous man whom Fash'lo'nae sought to grace with magic, when Lumnis stayed his hand, he then chose to destroy the man to see what Lumnis would do. Is this correct?"

Issiah says, "His motivations are not explicit, but that's how I read it, yes."

Lachonus says, "I figured Fash'lo'nae didn't wish to openly oppose Lumnis, but took the opportunity to make it learn something more valuable instead."

Kothos nods understandingly at Issiah.

Lylia asks, "Did Lumnis in her wisdom not anticipate that this might be his next point of curiosity, and did she willingly allow the one to die to potentially preserve the many, do you believe?"

Lylia asks, "Or was this an emotional and compassionate act?"

Lylia asks, "With an unforeseen consequence of a man's murder?"

Speaking to Lylia, Raelee says, "... my interpretation is that compassion was the primary driver of her actions."

Raelee says, "But... parables do leave room for many tellings."

Kothos says, "Politics wearing the pursuit of knowledge like a cloak."

Issiah says, "The text says she was shocked an' angry, so there was an emotional component on her part at least."

Issiah nods at Raelee.

Lylia nods thoughtfully.

Speaking to Lylia, Raelee says, "An interesting question.  Thank you."

Speaking to Meril, Raelee asks, "You had a query, yes?"

Lylia says, "I have no more questions, or perhaps so many that I cannot choose just one. I shall add, though, that I thought you were both quite brilliant, doing credit to the Arkati of which you spoke."

Lylia inclines her head.

Meril nods at Raelee.

Raelee nods at Lylia.

Meril softly says, "First, though, I might also mention that the parable of the warlord was first scribed by Vaelsoth of the Watchers of the Eternal Eye in Ta'Illistim, a famed adherent of the Grandfather. Perhaps the story of the meeting is told in just the way that he wishes the reader to believe."

Lylia nods in agreement at Meril.

Issiah nods.

Speaking to Meril, Raelee says, "That is a distinct possibility.  Scholarship is told from the viewpoint of the writer - and with that can come bias."

Murharzarm says, "Politics does suffuse absolutely everything."

Kothos smiles at Raelee.

Raelee gives a sidelong glance at Kothos.

Kothos folds his hands behind his back.

Oishian says, "Just an observation. These seem to be useful constructs for an approach to learning. While I regard the Arkati with reservation, these talks illustrate a purpose behind the portrayal of these beings; Modalities of thought."

Jaysehn raises his hand.

Bakarus smiles at Oishian.

Bakarus says, "Well said."

Lylia nods at Oishian.

Raelee says, "That is how I prefer to think of it.  I do not kneel before altars to the Grandfather - but I do look upon the philosophy with great respect."

Speaking to Oishian, Bakarus says, "And truly why we encourage all to attend...those who affiliate and worship and those who do not."

Meril says, "Well, my question regards some of the other ways that Fash'lo'nae has intervened in mortal affairs. There are many legends that he was responsible for opening the barriers to the Ur-Daemons, and many others that he had allowed the Book of Tormtor to be found by Despana."

Speaking to Raelee, Kothos says, "One would tend to think He is not much for altars, at all.  But lecterns and workspaces."

Lylia gazes with interest at Meril.

Raelee nods at Meril.

Meril asks, "What would you say to the meaning behind these experiments? And why, if Lumnis is opposed to him, had she not been able to stop them?"

Issiah says, "I frequently pray and invoke Lumnis, yet I also agree with this sentiment. As Raelee said, they seem essential to one another, lest one stagnate and the other overreach."

Bakarus nods at Issiah.

Speaking to Meril, Raelee says, "To address the meaning, first..."

Speaking to Meril, Raelee says, "Most stories regarding the Grandfather imparting knowledge upon mortals do carry the core theme of his wanting to see what we would do with it."
Raelee says, "It is unfortunate that he has not left us with detailed research papers illustrating his hypothesis... thus we must form our own hypotheses on his hypothesis..."

Speaking to Raelee, Missoni says, "Perhaps that is instructional in itself."

Speaking to Meril, Raelee asks, "But there does seem to be a pattern of growth.  What happens if they have fire?  What happens if they can wield that fire with magic?  What happens with greater magic?"

Kothos says, "Breadcrumbs instead of roads."

Issiah nods at Kothos.

Raelee asks, "Ultimately, if the first acts were to see if society can be built, it may have been about what power can undo that?"

Speaking to Meril, Raelee says, "But I will point out this is entirely speculation on my part."

Meril nods slightly.

Murharzarm says, "He'd likely be amused to see us trying to hypothesize about his hypothesis."

Issiah says, "That is I believe why Lumnis did not outright stop Despana. 'Advise and Guide’, not 'Command and Control'."

Raelee nods at Issiah.

Speaking to Raelee, Kothos asks, "An algorithm?"

Raelee says, "She may show more temperance regarding interference... even if that may mean staying her hand when interfering with Fash'lo'nae's interference..."

Issiah says, "As for the Ur-demons...my knowledge is spotty, but i dun think any one Arkati could have defeated them."

Raelee says, "Perhaps the first parable taught her a lesson too... about the potential consequences."

Raelee nods at Issiah.

Issiah says, "Yes."

Speaking to Issiah, Raelee says, "That is likely quite a valid point."

Meril nods at Issiah.

Speaking to Meril, Lachonus suggests, "Perhaps, if true, the barrier was also partly revenge for ... the melting aspect of them standing in his way."

Raelee offers, "And some of it may be... opportunity, not being in a position to interfere every time..."

Meril says, "Mm, but that would perhaps be an emotion not often prescribed to the Grandfather's temperament."

Issiah says, "True, as you said, the Arkati are not omnipotent."

Lachonus agrees with Meril.

Kothos says, "Omnipotence sounds much less fun, when put in this evening's presentation's perspective."

Kothos chuckles.

Raelee nods at Meril.

Lachonus says, "True, but I don't think that beings are made up of only two or three qualities each."

Lachonus grins.

Speaking to Meril, Raelee says, "He does seem to model an emotionless response in most cases."

Speaking to Kothos, Lylia says, "Yes, but I would still be willing to try it for a few millennia."

Kothos flashes a quick grin at Lylia.

Lachonus says, "I might suggest that the Arkati are as complex in personality and motive as any one of us, if not more so."

Speaking to Lylia, Kothos says, "You'd miss the chase."

Lylia confesses, "I would."

Bakarus grins.

Oishian says, "The line of thought would seem to follow that knowledge is not meant to be controlled, but tempered."

Lylia nods at Lachonus.

Speaking to Lylia, Raelee asks, "Would you need to, or would the omnipotence simply give you all that you require in a moment?"

Kothos winks at Lylia.

Speaking to Lachonus, Raelee says, "And that is a valid point.  We often hold them up as symbols of certain qualities, but they are complex beings in their own right."

Speaking to Raelee, Lylia says, "I think Kothos answered that with his statement that I would 'miss the chase.' And he is right."

Lylia smiles.

Issiah adopts an agreeable expression.

Kothos begins chuckling at Lylia!

Lachonus smiles at Raelee.

Speaking to Oishian, Raelee asks, "And thus the question is... to what extent should it be tempered?"

Speaking to Oishian, Raelee says, "Many in the Grandfather's follow would, of course, suggest barely at all."

Raelee asks, "Were there any other queries?"

Speaking to Raelee, Lylia says, "I often wonder if the Grandfather is actually emotionless as he is often considered, or if he feels but simply does not let emotion dictate the course of his choices, only inform them."

Speaking to Raelee, Oishian asks, "Does not time and experience cause the tempering?"

Speaking to Oishian, Raelee says, "That would be the wisdom component."

Speaking to Lylia, Raelee says, "I do not truly know."

Issiah nods at Raelee.

Murharzarm says, "Keeping emotions out of your work is a far sight different than being utterly emotionless one would think."

Issiah says, "Time and reflection."

Speaking to Raelee, Kothos says, "I think Lylia makes a fair point.  Those who value curiosity are often portrayed as cold."

Speaking to Lylia, Raelee says, "But us mere mortals often have to model the latter."

Speaking quietly to Murharzarm, Hadya agrees, "Emotions do complicate things."

Lylia nods at Raelee.

Hadya quietly says, "Alas we are mortal."

Lylia agrees with Murharzarm.

Issiah smirks.

Jaysehn asks, "Alas?"

Bakarus glances at Hadya.

Issiah says, "They're provin' that up north."

Speaking quietly to Jaysehn, Hadya says, "Yes, we have emotions."

Bakarus asks, "Are there any other questions this evening?"

Hadya quietly says, "Even the coldest of us."

Jaysehn says, "We do."

Kothos says, "That's bias, however.  Passion is curiosity's fuel."

Hadya folds her hands.

Lylia smiles at Hadya.

Bakarus smiles.

Issiah smiles at Kothos.

Raelee looks thoughtfully at Kothos.

Meril says, "You know, there is something I remember from the old sylvan traditions. We often hear it said that when Koar commands, all the rest of the Arkati must obey. But as the sylvan elders taught me, all the rest obey -- except for Fash'lo'nae."

Lylia gazes with interest at Meril.

Bakarus grins.

Meril says, "Koar commands the gods because he is the Lord of Mana, and without his blessing, none of them would be able to act. Except for one."

Speaking to Meril, Raelee asks, "Fascinating, no?"

Meril says, "Well, maybe it is just a parable as well. But it is something I ponder from time to time."

Bakarus says, "I suspect others do not obey, but it is an interesting thought."

Bakarus smiles.

Bakarus asks, "If there are no other questions this evening?"

Bakarus says, "I want to again thank our speakers."

Raelee nods at Bakarus.

(Player applause)

Issiah nods.

Speaking simply to Bakarus, Raelee says, "Thank you for the opportunity."

Bakarus says, "A memorable Winterfest event."

Issiah says, "My pleasure. thank ya all fer bein' here."

Bakarus says, "Eternal Light, all.  Do be safe if traveling north."