User talk:MOD-GSMOTTE

Followup versus Follow-up

https://gswiki.play.net/Unarmed_combat_system

I changed it to "followup" to match the in game messaging (which I guess then that means the in game messaging needs to be bugged!).

Also, while I'm here, thank you for all the work you've done :)

WINTERDAWN (talk) 16:47, 7 March 2021 (CST)

Yes, the in-game messaging should probably be bugged. I have no say on the arbitration of that messaging, but you could link the article I supplied. Thank you for the recognition of the work - I can only do that work because of everyone who is adding information to the wiki. My thanks to everyone who is working so hard to put information on this resource we all share and enjoy. I am thrilled when people contribute. MOD-GSMOTTE (talk) 11:55, 20 March 2021 (CDT)

Deleting Messages

What are your thoughts on deleting messages here so communication with you is easier to control/read? What about in general? Sometimes I run into some talk pages where the conversation is irrelevant. What about on say my own talk page? Is it okay to maybe go in and organize it better as I see fit or best to leave what others say alone? ..and circling back around.. a conversation such as this where it's a bit rambly, leave it alone or delete it? Or the above conversation about followup? Also, should this be done on your USER page or your TALK page?

WINTERDAWN (talk) 17:16, 12 April 2021 (CDT)

All of these sorts of messages should be on the Discussion page attached to my User page. You can think of the User page like a profile and the Discussion page as a place for people to ask questions. It is best if individuals do not delete or edit things on (1) someone else's User page, (2) someone's character page or character subpages, or (3) on guides written specifically by a person where they have not given permission. It is also best not to do anything except add to someone's Discussion page. You may blank your own Discussion page if you would like, or add headers, but etiquette would suggest you should not edit someone else's question or message. As an example, I know that I would not appreciate anyone coming on to my User/Discussion page and moving, editing, or deleting information on them. I also personally prefer not to blank pages so as to leave searchable information here so other people can see it and maybe learn something as well. I hope that helps. MOD-GSMOTTE (talk) 20:55, 12 April 2021 (CDT)

On point 2 and 3... what about typo/code fixes? On point 3... what about glaring errors? I remember this being discussed before but I'd like my memory refreshed. As an example, say a guide said, "you get 3 mana every time you train harness power" because it was made before the harness power changes and so is now erroneous information (which is an objective thing versus being subjective). WINTERDAWN (talk) 23:25, 12 April 2021 (CDT)

User pages and character pages: It is my understanding that player editors should not be making typo/code fixes on other user's pages (which include their User page and character page(s), discussion pages associated with those pages, or subpages of any of these things). Staff may do so, although we try not to touch other people's pages without discussing it with them first. There are some exceptions for us (including if the code is causing problems with the wiki or if we deleted a page or redirected a page that is causing a bad link on a user's page). If you notice a typo or would like to make a suggestion to a code fix, please use the discussion pages associated with all articles to make the suggestions. The only exception is when the user associated with those pages leaves a message on the associated discussion page giving permission to all or specific editors to make fixes. This is in accordance with Help:Character pages. If you think it is something that desperately needs fixed, you can draw staff attention to it by leaving a note on the discussion page, leaving a note on a moderator discussion page, or posting in Discord. A typo or bad link would not count as something that desperately needs fixed.

Player guides: It is my understanding that player editors should completely refrain from editing guides that are attached to an individual's user page or character page(s). In this situation, player editors can leave a message on the associated discussion page(s). In situations where the guides are in the main space (i.e. gswiki.play.net/<article title here>) and signed by a specific author such as "Motte's Guide to Archery" or "Guide to Archery by Motte," it is best etiquette to leave a note on the associated discussion page for non-typo changes and wait a couple weeks for a response before making the edit. By making the note on the associated discussion page of the error, readers can find the accurate information. This does not apply, in my opinion, to typos or changes needing made because the mechanics changed. In situations where it is a simple number swap, I would go ahead and do it and leave a note on the discussion page linking to why you did it (if the summary field for the change is not adequate). However, sometimes a mechanical change will result in the guide needing substantial changes to the information conveyed. In those situations, I would recommend italicizing the incorrect information in the guide, leaving a note such as below after it, and then leaving a note on both the guide's discussion page and on the author's user discussion page.

For example: Rangers are lamesauce because they don't have a low-level CS-spell, so I recommend that you <do a bunch of different things here.> (Note: Rangers were updated in December 2020 and now have [[Wild Entropy (603)]] which may make the italicized portion of the guide inapplicable. The guide's author may want to update this section.)

It is my preference that people writing guides explicitly leave a note stating whether or not they would welcome changes to the guides, indicating whether it is a specific guide written by them where they want to control updates or a community guide welcoming updates. In addition, it is best if people have guides that they do not want edited, that they subpage the guide off their character page or their user page. This helps make it really clear to staff what their preference is. While preferences cannot always be honored, we would like to encourage more people to participate in editing the wiki by being respectful of individuals. MOD-GSMOTTE (talk) 10:12, 13 April 2021 (CDT)

Redirects

Another separate question... In fixing the double redirects for character pages... Do you think maybe the "Arianiss Winterfox" pages (that redirect to Arianiss (prime)) should just be done away with? I know for a while people were creating pages under "First Last" style.

If it is your personal character page that you do not want to exist anymore, you can mark it for deletion by putting [[Category:Marked for Deletion]] on it. If it is not your personal character profile page, I would recommend leaving it alone at this time. MOD-GSMOTTE (talk) 20:55, 12 April 2021 (CDT)

Do you agree that there is no benefit to those pages as "FirstName" will always be available even if someone searched under "FirstName LastName"? Heck, do we even need "FirstName" as "FirstName (prime)" comes up in the search. WINTERDAWN (talk) 23:32, 12 April 2021 (CDT)

Given that player editors should really not be making changes to or altering other players' user pages or character pages, nor can player editors delete pages, my personal recommendation would be that they put their attention somewhere else instead of focusing on this kind of granularity of wiki management. This is an area of the wiki that is more my job to manage and address. I would much rather that player editors put their attention to adding new content to the wiki in accordance with their personal interests, helping with templating conversions (such as moving all item scripts over to the new templates), adding mechanical information from Discord properly linked in the summary to the Discord post so that I can easily verify it and not have to reach out for confirmation from GameMasters, adding information from the forums via Template:Saved-post and Discord via Template:Saved-discord-post to /saved_posts subpages (see style guide for more information), updating or broadening articles to be more comprehensive and new-player-friendly with more internal links and explanatory text, updating the new player guides and adding new ones, adding storyline information and logs to the wiki so that others can catch up and feel engaged in the future, and adding appropriate categories (such as all the new geography categories, which have information on organization and how to use them - and more are coming) to pages that were previously uncategorized or miscategorized. This is what is helpful to readers in general as well as to me. MOD-GSMOTTE (talk) 10:20, 13 April 2021 (CDT)

I will add, too, that all new articles should only be named CharacterFirstName (instance). There should no longer be any redirect pages created for CharacterFirstName or CharacterFirstName CharacterLastName. If you urgently feel the need to address these legacy pages, you can check "What links here" from each of the pages and convert them all to the appropriate CharacterFirstName (instance) so that eventually the legacy articles could be deleted if the wiki overseer decided that was necessary. At this time, she has not. However, it is my personal opinion that it would be a misuse of time that could be better used to support the wiki in other ways if the player editor has other skills or interests. (I don't mind fixing the double redirects.) MOD-GSMOTTE (talk) 10:25, 13 April 2021 (CDT)

Notes

Please use [[Category:Marked for Deletion]] when you would like something deleted. That category is on my weekly check list. If you are not sure if it should be deleted or not, please leave a message on that article's Discussion page in conjunction with marking it for deletion with an explanation for why you think it may need deleted. Thank you. Cross-posted to User:WINTERDAWN. MOD-GSMOTTE (talk) 09:49, 13 April 2021 (CDT)

Icemule Trace Community Discord

I would like to add a link on the wiki to the Icemule Trace Community Discord, primarily for socialization with the community but also for people to use for storyline discussion. Where, if anywhere, do you recommend this be put? WINTERDAWN (talk) 15:23, 28 April 2021 (CDT)

I have forwarded on this question and am waiting for a reply so that I can answer accurately. Thank you for your patience. MOD-GSMOTTE (talk) 09:50, 2 May 2021 (CDT)

Defense city subpages

GSMOTTE, I love the work you did for Town defense systems recently in adding individual city Defense pages. I feel like you probably had something specific in mind when you did this, or you would have left the information all together. So I want some help to understand your goals, so I can aim my contributions in the proper direction.

My initial thoughts on how the city pages could be organized:

• Introductory Paragraph/s
• Defense Systems In Use (in THIS CITY) (each system should have a hyperlink back to the Town defense systems article subsection for that type of system, or possibly a transclusion? but the city page should not have "how to operate" the systems generally, that should belong on the Town defense systems page?)
• Defense Maps (if any exist that are applicable to THIS CITY)
• Militia Groups (for THIS CITY) (list main town militia first, followed by MHO groups, then unofficial but well known groups, and lastly, any inactive/historic groups?)
• Defense Catastrophes (in THIS CITY) (example: "In the town's worst disaster, 75% of the town was burned to the ground by tiny green leprechauns in 5097. The city's water supply had been cut off by the enemy, so the defenders were unable to utilize the Bucket Brigade system, resulting in tragedy." etc?)
• Defense Successes (in THIS CITY) (example: "In 5007, several major cities were devastated by a flying spaghetti monster, but <this city>'s defenders were able to keep out the enemy. Helga's kitchen baked two tons of garlic bread topped with Mestanir cheese and the town militia placed mountains of the greasy bread strategically in the wilds near town. The monster hovered near the garlic bread for a long time, allowing time for development of a plan to trap and kill the monster." etc? I know that's a dumb example, but I hope there really ARE some historic good examples of defense strategy which can be spotlighted.)
• Helpful Links (a link to Town defense systems on every city Defense page, as well as any other helpful links pertaining to that city?)

For "defense catastrophes/victories" I am hoping it won't turn into just a list of storyline links, but will be specifically related to the topic of town defense somehow. Battles won because the defense was so good that an invader could not break through before they were killed or repelled. Devastation that left the town only a shadow of its former self, specific major defense mistakes that were made, etc, and hopefully not too long of a list, maybe a top 5? It will take someone really knowledgeable (definitely not me) to really know how to write this kind of thing and it might take a whole team of really knowledgeable people to pick a REALLY SOLID top 5 for each city.

GSMOTTE, please give a bit of direction/correction if you are able, with thoughts/ideas/corrections to my thinking. Also let me know if it is appropriate for me to post a link to your answer here on the wiki-talk Discord channel. Looking forward to input from you and others. Thank you. -Soliere FIRENSIA (talk) 19:29, 27 May 2021 (CDT)

Hello Soliere. First, thank you for your continued work on the GemStone Wiki. It is noticed and appreciated. Second, thank you for reaching out for clarification. I would like to walk you through my thought process. I apologize for the length in advance.

I feel like you probably had something specific in mind when you did this, or you would have left the information all together. -Soliere

I perceived the original page to be hard to navigate as it had some information in the top half about each system and then very scant bulleted-list information below about the systems and locations for some towns. The information had not been completed. This is not a criticism of the original work done on the page. I am appreciative that this information was documented and available.

However, when I tried to retrieve specific information, I struggled with the organization. I carefully considered how this sort of information currently is and could be conveyed on the wiki to be more helpful to users and be consistent with the style guide and how information has been presented before. Therefore, I elected to leave the town defense systems page to indeed be an encyclopedia of sorts of each of the subsystems that are available throughout the game to be used in town defense. On that page, which is now alphabetically ordered by system name, each town system has:

• a generic description of the system which is applicable across towns (with the exception of the crystal defense system as that is only used in Ta'Illistim as far as I know)
• operation instructions (when the information was available)
• ammunition overview (when this is applicable and the information was available)
• frequent questions (that you added, when there is some)

This organizational structure was used to hopefully add understanding for where to find specific information across the different systems. In addition, each of these sections of information had labeled section transclusion added so that this information could also be used to populate individual town defense pages which could go more into detail and only use the information that was relevant for that particular town.

Previously, the town information was scant. There was additionally some information in the town section that was not necessarily available in the above "encyclopedia"-type area. It made for a lot of scrolling up and down when trying to actually use the systems. This leads me to your next question.

So I want some help to understand your goals, so I can aim my contributions in the proper direction

The goals for the moderator position are to communicate clearly and effectively while supporting editors and ensuring existing information on the wiki is appropriate, easy to read, consistent, and follows the style guides and help pages. As such, I took the existing information that was available on the article and began to work with it towards this goal of organizing the information so that it was easier for a player to access what they needed while maintaining consistency and following style guides.

There was existing information on specific systems in Wehnimer's Landing, Ta'Vaalor, Ta'Illistim, and Teras Isle. Icemule only had two items that said "rooftops" and "ballistae," so I did not create a page for it yet as I had nothing of substance to add. My hope was that an editor (like yourself) would come by and create the page and populate the information. I will go ahead and create the page for you as you requested and look forward to seeing your contributions on the pages. Thank you, again, for all of your hard work. If you would like help with adding in the transclusion and the overall skeleton, I am happy to assist. Please leave a comment at Talk:Icemule Trace/Defenses with the systems that are used in Icemule and I will happily set up all of the sections and transclusion for you, so that you can add the specifics.

My initial thoughts on how the city pages could be organized:

When I organized the Wehnimer's Landing page (as it had the most complete information), I asked myself what I would find most useful if I was a player who was trying to interact with the systems in Wehnimer's Landing. I decided that I would not want to have to go back and forth between two different articles while I was in the middle of trying to defend the town. Therefore, I took the labeled section transclusion I used on the main systems page and used it within this page to be an all-in-one shop for the Wehnimer's Landing defender. I set it up like this:

• Introduction with some of the known militia entities including the GM-approved Wehnimer's Landing Militia and the MHOs who have claimed this as their primary reason for existing.
• Individual systems, listed alphabetically each with the following information
  • describes what the system is (transcluded from the main page)
  • provides basic information on how to use it (transcluded from the main page) with links that say "More information is available at town defense systems" when more detailed information is available
  • provides the locations specific to that exact town
  • additional subheaders and blurbs for more town-specific information related to that system if required (such as information on the rooftops and treetops in the Landing)
  • subheader for ammunition if needed
  • describes ammunition when ammunition is required (transcluded from the main page)
  • provides the locations specific to that exact town
• Table of Immobile Defense Information which is sortable so that people can see at a glimpse the location, the systems in use at that location, the directions to get there, and any notes for each tower/stable location.
• See Also with links to additional information that is helpful.
• Maps specific to the town are included on that town's defense page next to the most pertinent or relevant information.

My intent was for a Wehnimer's Landing player (for example) to not get inundated with information about defense systems that are not available in their town: to instead have a one-stop shop for information on THAT town by going to the Wehnimer's Landing Defense page. I used transclusion so that any generic information on the systems could be replicated to all the towns so that only one page (the town defense system page) would need to be updated if the systems changed in some way. When I look at your list above, I am a little confused because I included almost all of those things you list on the Wehnimer's Landing page (which, again, was the only town that had complete information on the wiki for me to work with).

The only things I left out were defense catastrophes and successes, which were not included on the original page and which I also feel would be better served on a different page and linked in the See Also section. Some of this information is available in historical sections of the wiki and also in storylines. If someone wanted to make an article like you suggest, they might be best off transcluding information from existing pages to not have duplication of information across the wiki. This is just me thinking out loud and certainly not indicative of what someone must do.

If you wanted to rearrange the Wehnimer's Landing page to add sections down below for the GM-run Militia and the three MHOs (removing it from the introduction) and then add another section for defense maps, that seems perfectly acceptable to me. I did include the (useful and wonderful) map on the Wehnimer's Landing Defenses page that marked the log traps, ballista towers, and such, which had been on the town defense systems article. If more maps like that exist, they would be wonderful additions to each town's defense page.

I hope that this is helpful. I am certainly not trying to dictate how the article pages must be done, but I wanted to explain what I was thinking and what I did do as it seemed to be what you were requesting. I'm open to modifying any of this to what makes the most sense to the users to meet the goals as I outlined above. Last, I just want to repeat myself and say thank you for all of your hard work and I hope that my actions have been helpful. That is my sole intent. I genuinely appreciate every person who collaborates on this large project.

Please feel free to share this wherever it would be helpful, and please feel free to continue to discuss it with me or point out errors in my thinking. MOD-GSMOTTE (talk) 15:11, 28 May 2021 (CDT)

GSMOTTE, thank you for your thoughtful response, I had almost forgotten that I asked! It is very helpful to see your thoughts, and it helped me to understand what you are trying to do. I will try to follow your lead and keep the same goals in mind, I think you did a great job! I'm going to get my log of the Icemule town defense information and try to post it for you, like you asked. Thanks so much. FIRENSIA (talk) 17:57, 8 July 2021 (CDT)