Leafiara (prime)/Mechanical Musings/Ascension Considerations

Recording my musings on how to most effectively train ATPs as the thoughts come to me.

Taking Logic First to Make Everything Else Faster

Don't do it.

Assuming you have a multiple of 5 Logic bonus at cap, you'd have to put 750,000 exp into ATPs before you'd see any benefit while on a node. At that point, if exp pulses happened at one per minute (I think it might be less often than this, but for easy math...), you'd need to play for 750,001 minutes before this started making things faster for you.

Even someone who threw their initial 10 milestone ATPs at Logic and then added the other 5 over time would still need to play 250,001 minutes for it to pay off, which is equal to playing 24/7 for about 0.4756 years.

And if you only play 8 hours a week, forget about it; at that point it'll be 520.8354 weeks, or in other words over ten years, before it pays off. (Extrapolate this out however you want. Play 20 hours a week? It'll be 208.3342 weeks to pay off, or over four years.)

Even if that doesn't put you off right away, it's all not factoring in the opportunity cost of not having put those points elsewhere. For the same amount of ATPs you could have an additional 10 AS, 5 CS for most professions, +5% chance for another damage cycle on Spike Thorn, etc.

When is it Better to Train a Skill Through Ascension Than Conventionally?

The short answer is never.

The long answer is almost never, but with a caveat.

Even the most egregious grinds you can think of, like taking a warrior to 3x Dodging or a pure to 1x Dodging, are much faster to train conventionally (assuming you haven't already maxed them out conventionally, of course). The former is typically a converted cost of 40 MTPs, which is only 33,333 exp vs. 50k to start for ascension. The latter is typically a converted cost of 60 PTPs, which is 50k, so it's on par for the first 5 ranks of Dodging via ascension but at least twice as fast afterwards.

The few skills that would actually be faster through ATPs aren't available through ATPs as far as we know, like paladin spell ranks at 2x costs or spell ranks on a rogue already heavily converted to MTPs.

That said, you have to sink a certain number of ATPs into the Common ascension tier to unlock higher tiers anyway. You'll get less bang for the buck in the short-term by taking, say, Multi-Opponent Combat to move your empath from 55 to 60--costing 250k exp of ATPs instead of 145,833 conventional exp--but the conventional path doesn't unlock further growth potential later.

These fringe cases are pretty few and far between, though. Multi-Opponent Combat is one of the better examples because it has discrete thresholds, but even then I had to illustrate by assuming an empath who already has a pretty solid number of ranks. Since ATP skills operate on bonus, pushing an empath who has no conventional MOC ranks to 5 ATP ranks is only the equivalent of taking one conventional rank.

Quick Wins and Thresholds

Let's say you mostly want to get to Elite and Legendary and are only sinking points into Common because you have to. There are some obvious choices of what to take, like 250k exp into weapons or Spell Aiming for a quick +5 AS, but here are some less obvious things I'd be looking at:

• Quick win: 200k exp into Dexterity and 100k exp into Agility (or vice versa) reduces mstrike RT by 1 for any of the following races if they have 100 non-ascended, non-enhanced Agility and Dexterity: aelotoi, dark elves, forest gnomes, half-elves, sylvans, erithians, and humans.
• Quick win: 250k exp into Aura gives an extra point of spirit to someone with 100 non-ascended, non-enhanced Aura.
• Quick win: 150k exp into Multi-Opponent Combat gives an extra unfocused mstrike target for a ranger archer or crossbow rogue with 101 conventional Multi-Opponent Combat.
• Threshold: 550k exp into Summoning lore allows a cleric or empath to have 100% Spirit Slayer during Duskruin with a fixskill to 202 conventional Summoning. If you're ordinarily at a Summoning threshold like 60 or 30 for locates, it also means you can shave off respectively 8 or 2 conventional ranks to go to another spiritual lore.
• Threshold: In general, review your lores again to see what you're close to but couldn't reach within the 2x or 1x limitation. Note that ascension skills add bonus and not ranks, so if your lore is under 40 conventional ranks, you'd either need additional ascension ranks or would have to balance the numbers out a bit.
• Quick win: 50k or 100k exp into Survival reduces the roll needed to forage an herb for someone with, respectively, 101 or 202 conventional Survival.
• Quick win: Some characters might be within range of another Trading threshold to make more silvers. You get 1% for every 12 combined bonus from Trading and Influence, so at most you'll be 950k exp away (750k into Trading and 200k into Influence), but you could be as low as 50k away.

Efficient Ranks of Dexterity vs. Spell Aiming (or Picking Locks or Ranged Weapons)

Exp	Cumulative	Skill	Ranks	Benefit	Rate
250k	250k	Spell Aiming	5	+5 AS	50k per AS
200k	450k	Dexterity	4	+2 AS	100k per AS
500k	950k	Spell Aiming	5	+5 AS	100k per AS
150k	1.1m	Dexterity	2	+1 AS	150k per AS
750k	1.85m	Spell Aiming	5	+5 AS	150k per AS
400k	2.25m	Dexterity	4	+2 AS	200k per AS
1m	3.25m	Spell Aiming	5	+5 AS	200k per AS
1.25m	4.5m	Spell Aiming	5	+5 AS	250k per AS
600k	5.1m	Dexterity	4	+2 AS	300k per AS
1.5m	6.6m	Spell Aiming	5	+5 AS	300k per AS
350k	6.95m	Dexterity	2	+1 AS	350k per AS
1.75m	8.7m	Spell Aiming	5	+5 AS	350k per AS
800k	9.5m	Dexterity	4	+2 AS	400k per AS

And so on. (The same math also applies to improving Picking Locks or Ranged Weapons instead of Spell Aiming, though Ranged assumes you're 2x Ambush and 2x Perception already. If you aren't, then do that since they're extremely cheaper to train with conventional skills than ATPs. To my understanding, their benefits are capped at 2x.)

When rates are equal, I'd give Dexterity precedence because it also improves SMRv2 defense or mstrike RT. SA does offer runestaff DS or spellburst protection, though.

Efficiently Improving Melee AS: Weapons, Strength, and Combat Maneuvers

Basically the same math as above except now there are two things on the Dexterity scale...

Exp	Cumulative	Skill	Ranks	Benefit	Rate
250k	250k	Weapon	5	+5 AS	50k per AS
200k	450k	Strength	4	+2 AS	100k per AS
200k	650k	Combat Maneuvers	4	+2 AS	100k per AS
500k	1.15m	Weapon	5	+5 AS	100k per AS
150k	1.3m	Strength	2	+1 AS	150k per AS
150k	1.45m	Combat Maneuvers	2	+1 AS	150k per AS
750k	2.2m	Weapon	5	+5 AS	150k per AS
400k	2.6m	Strength	4	+2 AS	200k per AS
400k	3m	Combat Maneuvers	4	+2 AS	200k per AS
1m	4m	Weapon	5	+5 AS	200k per AS
1.25m	5.25m	Weapon	5	+5 AS	250k per AS

And so on.

When they're at the same rate, you can flip them around however you like. The AS benefits are equal, but Strength offers encumbrance benefits, CM offers maneuver defense, and weapon bonus (to my understanding) decreases enemy EBP.

Melee AS with a Katar

Exp	Cumulative	Skill	Ranks	Benefit	Rate
200k	200k	Strength	4	+2 AS	100k per AS
200k	400k	Combat Maneuvers	4	+2 AS	100k per AS
500k	900k	Edged and Brawling	10 (total)	+5 AS	100k per AS
150k	1.15m	Strength	2	+1 AS	150k per AS
150k	1.3m	Combat Maneuvers	2	+1 AS	150k per AS
400k	1.7m	Strength	4	+2 AS	200k per AS
400k	2.1m	Combat Maneuvers	4	+2 AS	200k per AS
1m	3.1m	Edged and Brawling	10 (total)	+5 AS	200k per AS
600k	3.7m	Strength	4	+2 AS	300k per AS
600k	4.3m	Combat Maneuvers	4	+2 AS	300k per AS
1.5m	5.8m	Edged and Brawling	10 (total)	+5 AS	300k per AS
350k	6.15m	Strength	2	+1 AS	350k per AS
350k	6.5m	Combat Maneuvers	2	+1 AS	350k per AS
800k	7.3m	Strength	4	+2 AS	400k per AS
800k	8.1m	Combat Maneuvers	4	+2 AS	400k per AS
2m	10.1m	Edged and Brawling	10 (total)	+5 AS	400k per AS

Melee AS with Two Weapons

...this one hurts my head and I'm honestly not even going to run the numbers, leaving it to someone who writes a .exe to run these kinds of calculations. That said, some things to note:

• 100% of the AS benefits of Combat Maneuvers in either of the above plans (for non-hybrid or hybrid weapons) apply to the offhand.
• 60% of the AS benefits of weapon ranks in the above plan apply to the offhand. For the other 40%, you'll have to train Two Weapon Combat. The corollary is that you'll have to train 2.5 times as many ranks for the equivalent AS boost--and that applies to the offhand only.
• AS benefits from Strength apply to the offhand only when the character's Strength bonus doesn't wind up exceeding their Dexterity bonus. When it does exceed, you'll have to take more Dexterity to get them to parity.
  • For a halfling, who innately has a 30-point advantage of Dexterity over Strength, Strength will always benefit the offhand unless they've used a combination of enhancives and ATPs to bump Strength bonus by at least 31.
  • Conversely, for a giant, who has a 20-point of advantage of Strength over Dexterity, Strength will never benefit the offhand unless they've used a combination of ATPs and enhancives to bump Dexterity bonus by at least 21.

Efficiently Improving UAF

Exp	Cumulative	Skill	Ranks	Benefit	Rate
250k	250k	Brawling	5	+10 UAF	25k per UAF
500k	750k	Brawling	5	+10 UAF	50k per UAF
750k	1.5m	Brawling	5	+10 UAF	75k per UAF
200k	1.75m	Combat Maneuvers	4	+2 UAF	100k per UAF
1m	2.75m	Brawling	5	+10 UAF	100k per UAF
1.25m	4m	Brawling	5	+10 UAF	125k per UAF
150k	4.15m	Combat Maneuvers	2	+1 UAF	150 per UAF
1.5m	5.65m	Brawling	5	+10 UAF	150k per UAF
1.75m	7.4m	Brawling	5	+10 UAF	175k per UAF
200k	7.6m	Strength	4	+1 UAF	200k per UAF
200k	7.8m	Agility	4	+1 UAF	200k per UAF
800k	8.6m	Combat Maneuvers	4	+2 UAF	200k per UAF
2m	10.8m	Brawling	5	+10 UAF	200k per UAF

Very different progression from melee AS, as you can see, because not only do Brawling ranks add 2 UAF per bonus, but Strength and Agility only add 0.5 UAF per bonus.

MM is far more important to brawling than UAF, so I'd caution against thinking that brawling is twice as fast to improve as other melee AS since they're not directly comparable. That said, if you want to just see very big numbers, this is a great way to do it.

CS For Bards, Clerics, Empaths, Paladins, Rangers, or Wizards

Exp	Cumulative	Skill	Ranks	Benefit	Rate
200k	200k	CS stat	4	+2 CS	100k per CS
150k	350k	CS stat	2	+1 CS	150k per CS
400k	750k	CS stat	4	+2 CS	200k per CS
600k	1.35m	CS stat	4	+2 CS	300k per CS
350k	1.7m	CS stat	2	+1 CS	350k per CS
800k	2.5m	CS stat	4	+2 CS	400k per CS
1m	3.5m	CS stat	4	+2 CS	500k per CS
550k	4.05m	CS stat	2	+1 CS	550k per CS
1.2m	5.25m	CS stat	4	+2 CS	600k per CS

CS For Sorcerers

Your first thought might be "eesh, sucks to be a sorcerer since they have to pay twice as much." That's kind of true and kind of not, depending how you look at it. Here's the training plan:

Exp	Cumulative	Skill	Ranks	Benefit	Rate
200k	200k	Wisdom	4	+1 CS	200k per CS
200k	400k	Aura	4	+1 CS	200k per CS
350k	750k	Wisdom	4	+1 CS	350k per CS
350k	1.1m	Aura	4	+1 CS	350k per CS
500k	1.6m	Wisdom	4	+1 CS	500k per CS
500k	2.1m	Aura	4	+1 CS	550k per CS
650k	2.75m	Wisdom	4	+1 CS	650k per CS
650k	3.4m	Aura	4	+1 CS	650k per CS
800k	4.2m	Wisdom	4	+1 CS	800k per CS
800k	5m	Aura	4	+1 CS	800k per CS

(You can swap the order of Wisdom and Aura depending on whether you value Wisdom's boost to ensorcelling and spiritual TD or Aura's boost to spirit and elemental TD.)

Comparing some reasonably close thresholds, you can see how it shifts around...

• At 200k exp, a sorc has gained 1 CS while another pure has gained 2.
• At 400k, it's 2 vs. 3.
• At 750k, it's 3 vs. 5.
• At 1.1m, it's 4 vs. 6.
• At 1.7m, it's 5 vs. 8.
• At 2.1m, it's 6 vs. 9.
• At 3.5m, it's 8 vs. 12.
• At 4.2m, it's 9 vs. 13.

So in one sense, if both characters are sinking equal amounts of exp purely into CS gain, then 150-160% as much CS is what the other pure is getting, not 200%.

However, if you're aiming to hit a specific CS increase, that's when it looks comparatively worse for the sorcerer:

• To get +3 CS, a sorcerer has to spend 750k while another pure has to spend 400k.
• To get +5, it's 1.6m vs. 750k.
• To get +6, it's 2.1m vs. 1.05m.
• To get +8, it's 3.4m vs. 1.7m.
• To get +10, it's 5m vs. 2.5m.

Not all thresholds shown, obviously, but you get the picture.

All that said, if you are aiming for a specific CS increase, then you might be able to get it up to 4 ranks earlier because of the quirk of hybrid CS explained here: https://gswiki.play.net/Casting_strength#Sorcerer

Due to the nature of hybrid circles, a spell rank configuration that includes 75+ ranks of Minor Elemental will result in +0.5 CS over a configuration without. In practice, this will result in +1 CS in any situation where a sorcerer would receive an additional fractional CS gain from a spell effect.

Time will tell if this applies with ascension skills, but it might be true that just one rank of Aura or Wisdom will grant +1 CS if your sorcerer has 75 or more Minor Elemental.

The overall math for sorcerer CS would still be similar, though. The CS gains would be at every [(multiple of 4) + 1] rank instead of every 4th rank and within each tier of increasing ATP costs, you'd be ahead of the curve:

• You'd have +1 CS at 50k instead of 200k.
• +2 CS at 250k instead of 400k.
• +3 CS at 450k instead of 750k.
• +4 CS at 800k instead of 1.1m.
• +5 CS at 1.2m instead of 1.6m.
• +6 CS at 1.7m instead of 2.1m.
• +7 CS at 2.25m instead of 2.75m.

And so on.