Template talk:What Stats Do Table

I should point out that the statistics table in the New Players' Guide was adapted for the Statistic page and some information was missing from the latter. The original table had a grading system for new players which I did not think was necessary to include on the actual statistics page. However, the grading system is still possibly useful for new players so this version of the table with the grading system should probably exist there (e.g. there should be at least two different, although similar tables instead of just the one linked in both places). -cheers, SARAH3 (talk) 05:00, 20 February 2015 (CST)

For the average character of what profession? You have a sorcerer semi-tanking INT like the grading indicates and you have a sorcerer in trouble when it comes to Ensorcell, illusions, magic item use and scroll use, and it is not even a primary stat for the profession. I'm not saying you weren't correct for reverting, but the grades are questionable. VANKRASN39 (talk) 08:04, 20 February 2015 (CST)

I think it's true that the grades are somewhat subjective, but I also think that the solution to revising them isn't to delete them outright (especially accidentally, as appears to be the case here since you left the description for the grade column in the text). I also think that it's worthwhile to discuss the merits of the grades, but perhaps this discussion would be better on the New Players' Guide talk page than here since people are more likely to look there and the grades don't exist on this template. If the general consensus is to eliminate them entirely, then it's definitely fair to replace the table again (or undo the reversion if nobody does anything else on the page in between), but maybe the general consensus will turn out to be that the grades are useful for beginners and just need to be changed up. -cheers, SARAH3 (talk) 09:11, 20 February 2015 (CST)

After further thinking this morning, grades should really be on the individual profession pages, not given in such a generalized manner. Maybe they shouldn't even be given in grades at all, maybe actual numbers instead (or a range). The discussion is here, let's just keep it going. VANKRASN39 (talk) 09:40, 20 February 2015 (CST)

Possibly, but I haven't seen any of the beginner professional pages use this table at all, although I haven't double checked all of them recently. I feel like since the table on the main new players' guide it's meant to be generalized, so the grades are meant to be an overview of how useful these stats are to skills and abilities that everyone can access, rather than how useful they are to individual professions and their particular skills. Also, personally, I feel like grades are a range of numbers in a way. -cheers, SARAH3 (talk) 10:43, 20 February 2015 (CST)

So you propose that people see D in a grade and put between 60-70 in the number? I disagree with this line of thinking as it doesn't account for stat growth factors, or whether one sets stats for max at cap or an easier advancement. The grades are too generalized and are misleading rather than helpful. I think the original table is better (let people see what are the main stats for each profession in the chart as well as the systems each stat affects), along with a brief discussion on setting stats for max at cap or a somewhat easier advancement, and links to the stat cruncher, as well as perhaps more specific guidance in the individual guides (i.e. don't tank your INT if you're a sorcerer, it affects this and that and the other). VANKRASN39 (talk) 10:57, 20 February 2015 (CST)

Well, I definitely would have never found this discussion if Sarah didn't tell me about it, but okay sure, now that I found it we can keep it here (but no one else is likely to contribute to the discussion). Giving grades was obviously my own idea, and I did it on a whim. The idea was for beginners to get some kind of basic idea. In the simplest way of thinking, I felt that if I beginner looks at that table after setting low INF they may think, "Okay, this isn't so terrible" but if they set a low logic they'll be like, "Oh, that was dumb, I should change it!" Whether the grades are actually worthwhile at all is certainly another point. Definitely giving actual ranges for the values to be places absolutely cannot be done for the beginner's guide on a general page, but I think grades can be offered. And sure, people can feel free to either give grades or general ranges of values on professional pages. At this point in the beginner guides, though, I wonder if anyone would also independently come to the idea that it can be okay to grade statistics without seeing this example. I'd really like to move this discussion to the New Players' Guide so that we have the chance to get feedback from anyone else. (Which isn't my way of saying I don't value the input offered here, but that we aren't going to get any more voices by keeping it where it is.) Thanks! DAID (talk) 18:02, 20 February 2015 (CST)