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Forging Success Info 4/2017

Category: Artisan Skills
Topic: Forging
Message #: 669
Author: GS4-MIKOS
Date: 04/14/2017 09:51 AM EDT
Subject: Forging Success and Perfect/Extraordinary Success info

It's been too long since I last provided information for those invested in forging, so hopefully the following will shed some additional light on what's what...

1. The most recent updates noted in any of the forging system scripts is the addition of the Gift of Eonake benefit. No one's modified the grinder, the vise, or the forge recently in any other way, so inordinate runs of bad luck are just that. The RNG in GS has been "odd" in that regard since forever.

2. Various glyphs have differing levels of complexity, it's referenced in the text of the placard in the workshop supply stall. The complexity/difficulty level ONLY limits which glyphs a weaponsmith can work with at any given skill level. If you're capable enough to scribe the glyph onto a slab, you're capable enough to produce the part. Beyond that, the difficulty of the glyph doesn't impact anything further in the system that I've been able to identify.

3. The chance to successfully forge an item is determined by:

1-500 [appropriate forging skill (OHE, BR, etc.)]
- [wound/HP-loss penalty]
+ [Forging stat bonuses averaged] (Effective Con bonus, Effective Dis bonus, Effective Str bonus)
{Comparatively, Grinder stat bonuses are (Effective Dex bonus, Effective Dis bonus, Effective Str bonus)}
- [material's magical-plus penalty (higher plus = higher penalty)]
- [material's size penalty (each "pound" of material being worked is a -1 penalty)]
(working larger masses of material at the forge is inherently more difficult)
+ [forging hammer's quality modifier]
- [profession handicap]
+ [Racial bonus]
{Chance of success}
1-500 RNG
If RNG < {Chance of success} then SUCCESS.
Gift of Eonake provides a 2nd success roll. The better of the two is kept.

4. Once a Forging attempt has been determined to be a success, an additional 1-100 RNG determines if it was actually an Extraordinary Success (a "best work" item, necessary in order to achieve a Perfect weapon). The forge's script/code suggests that a 5% chance of an E.S. was intended, with the hammer's ownership/quality providing a bonus, but the code evaluates to the two If statements below: If the forging-hammer does not belong to the weaponsmith, the % chance of an E.S. is 0. If the forging-hammer DOES belong to the weaponsmith, the % chance of an E.S. = the hammer's quality modifier.

5. Once a Grinding attempt has been determined to be a success, an additional 1-100 RNG determines if it was actually an Extraordinary Success. The grinder's chance of an E.S is a flat 5% chance. No modifiers of any sort.

6. At the Grinder, Rogues, Rangers and Monks have a 0 professional handicap. Max Prof handicap is 40. At the Forge, Warriors and Paladins have a -5 professional "handicap". Max Prof handicap is 50. At the Vise, Warriors and Paladins have a 0 professional handicap. Max Prof handicap is 6. (profession matters much less when assembling parts)

7. At the vise, if the assembly is successful (Gift of Eonake provides a 2nd success roll. The better of the two is kept.) the chance of an Extraordinary Success and a quality increase is determined by a 1-100 RNG vs. (the applicable Forging skill/50), So the max possible is a 10% chance. A weaponsmith with an OHE forging skill of 400 would have an 8% chance of an E.S. when assembling an OHE weapon.

- Mikos

Dyeing Parts of Forged Weapons 12/2016

Category: Artisan Skills
Topic: Forging
Message #: 3
Author: GS4-MIKOS
Date: 12/12/2016 11:11 AM EST
Subject: Re: Bug - dyeing finished vultite blades sometimes turns them into steel

Actually, the relationship between forging and dyeing is beyond buggy. The forging system was built back when the only means of identifying the material of a piece at the vise was via the contents of the Adjective field on the base item, and dyeing didn't exist back then. This means that by dyeing a blade you're removing its "vultite-ness". The forging system treats it as steel by default.

I have no information on whether the current forging system will be updated to play more nicely with dyed items or not. I expect that any changes needed would be outside the realm of what the dyeing system would be expected to cope with.

I'll plan to get with you or anyone else that's been affected by this "incompatibility" (I see I missed a post by SHARIQUEN back in Nov.) and we can make things right. The dyeing system does log the stats of pieces, so we can backtrack and recover any transmogrified items. I realize that time as well as items have been invested, but we'll work it out.

You're welcome to assist and ask the Host to put in a referral to have this taken care of, and I'll keep an eye out for any such referral. Although another GM may choose to tackle this, I wouldn't expect them to.

- Mikos

Grinder Success Computation 12/2015

Category: Artisan Skills
Topic: Forging
Message #: 545
Author: GS4-MIKOS
Date: 12/16/2015 05:16 PM JST
Subject: Catch-up forging info

First off, my apologies for not getting stuff posted here sooner. I expected to be posting here weeks ago, it just hasn't worked out that way.

Although there have been several questions posted, I thought it might be clearest to provide the information by subject rather than as individual answers. So this post is just about the Crafting Skill Use computation.

There's a fair amount of detail imbedded in it, so I believe it will answer several of the questions, and the relative affects of the different pieces should be apparent. Also, I couldn't bring myself to reveal every number, but I think ranges of values will provide enough information to work from and should make some skill-use and character design decisions easier.

Grinder success chance is based on:

300 [Current crafting skill] (300 is just an example)
- 0 [aggregate wound pentalties](Just don't work with wounds or without full HPs!)
+25 [(Enhanced DEX Bonus + Enhanced DIS Bonus + Enhanced STR Bonus) / 3] (again, just an example value)
-100 [magical penalty (x * magical+)] (This example is an unspecified high+ material.)
- 5 [professional handicap (ranges from 0 to 40)] Think, "Does this profession require nimble hands?" "Best" professions have a 0 handicap. This example is for a Warrior.
+50 [racial bonus (ranges from -20 to +50)] - Think, "Is this race stereotypically considered to be good at crafting weapons?"
270 Net success chance (1 - 500) of using Crafting skill on this particular piece of material.

NOTE: While it may be argued that Elves are the finest at crafting anything and everything, the system, as it currently exists, is set up with a bias towards Dwarves as the best at crafting weapons, with Burghal Gnomes running a close second.

And yes, Gift of Eonak does affect one's chance of success when using the grinder, but it's a new enough wrinkle that without specific permission from Coase I won't be providing any details on how or to what degree.

At this point my plan is to post a similar layout in the near future for Forging Skill Use unless folks feel a different approach would work better.

- Mikos

Category: Artisan Skills
Topic: Forging
Message #: 477
Author: GS4-MIKOS
Date: 08/31/2015 12:32 PM EDT
Subject: Re: Confirmation of stats effecting vise attempts

First off, I am not the Forging Guru, GM Coase is the Artisan Guilds Guru and as such Forging is within his purview.

However, I have been given approval to post responses in the Forging Topic. This means that while I can't address any questions about what's pending or being worked on as far as the Forging System goes, I can provide information on the system as it currently functions.

So, Brian, when you say, "I'm interested in a more detailed explanation."

I'd need to have some fairly focused questions to respond to. For instance, I can confirm that Frorin's information is correct:

For the grinder, the average of a crafter's Dex Bonus, Discipline Bonus, and Strength Bonus is applied to the success chance as a positive modifier. For the forge, the average of a forger's Constitution Bonus, Discipline Bonus, and Strength Bonus is applied to the success chance as a positive modifier. For the vise, the average of a crafter's Discipline Bonus and Dexterity Bonus is applied to the success chance as a positive modifier.

As Frorin stated, both profession and race provide modifiers, although unless you're considering starting a new weaponsmith, information on those may be of no interest to you.

Regarding..."Perhaps I can use any enhancives I own strategically to up my chances a little..."

I will say that one set of comments within the vise script suggests that the stat bonus figures averaged are a PC's enhanced stat values, but I would have to either become more familiar with the specific stat fields or simply watch a PC wearing enhancements at work in a workshop to verify whether the enhanced bonuses are the figures being picked up and used by the forging scripts.

And. "...I just want to know which way to go, or if it even matters past a certain point."

That's where I'd really need something more specific to respond to, although if you were simply intending to convey frustration at the lack of specific information I would consider it to have been effective.

- Mikos

Category: Artisan Skills
Topic: Forging
Message #: 489
Author: GS4-MIKOS
Date: 09/03/2015 07:59 PM EDT
Subject: Re: Confirmation of stats effecting vise attempts

>>According to some old, old information I have, the stats named affect your chance of successfully creating the item, and NOT your chance of getting a best piece.

That's right. The stat bonus information I posted is simply the effect those stats have on the chance of success at a given workshop task. That information was not at all addressing "best" results modifiers.

The system computes a few distinct values. 1) Task Success or Failure. 2) Skill Improvement aka Learning aka Aha's. 3) Task Results - whether it's a Grinder, Forge or a Vise result - aka Quality. So, those stat bonuses I posted about are strictly related to #1.

Also, as an aside, I'm focused pretty narrowly at the moment on an existing project, so I won't be taking the time to post more here until that's done. Right now it looks like that'll run into this weekend or maybe even early next week. But I will be providing more information, so don't spend a significant amount of time and effort attempting to produce data to derive info that may end up being posted here in a few days. Unless you really want to, of course.

A fair number of specific questions have been raised in the past few posts, so I'll be addressing those as soon as my time frees up a bit. Then we can go from there.

- Mikos

Forge Pricing 2/2007

Category: Artisan Skills
Topic: Forging
Message #: 5308
Author: SIMU-JOSHT (Cirakin)
Date: 2/13/2007 11:15:26 AM
Subject: Re: Forge Pricing (elegant, superior, best, let's call the whole thing off)

Looks like you all have managed to figure it out, but I'll just confirm things because it makes me feel important.

A finished weapon's quality is equal to the lowest of the two combined parts. The vise operation happens after this is determined and provides the chance to up the quality by one.

Poor + Superior = Poor + Normal Vise = Poor
Elegant + Superior = Elegant + Best Vise = Superior
Superior + Superior = Superior + Best Vise = Perfect

Math is delicious!

- JoshT

Forging AvD Update 4/2006

Category: Artisan Skills
Topic: Forging
Message #: 3368
Author: GS4-Bernt
Date: 4/25/2006 9:39:54 PM
Subject: Re: Forging issues for Bernt

At your collective suggestion, I have modified the AvD benefit for crafted weapons to be additive instead of multiplicative:

Quality AvD
Perfect +3
Superior +2
Elegant +1
Fine/Nice/Plain +0
Simple -1
Crude -2
Flimsy -3

This method is an improvement for almost all elegant+ weapons relative to the current system and provides a distinct (albeit small) difference for each quality grade. This update also corrects a bug in calculating the AvD when the base AvD is negative.


GM Bernt

Forged Weapon Weights 4/2006

Category: Artisan Skills
Topic: Forging
Message #: 3302
Author: Krakii
Date: 4/4/2006 8:23:46 AM
Subject: Re: Forged Weapon Weights?

Here's the usages, rarity, bonus, and weight modifiers from, back when Banthis was the one in charge of materials. At the time, this was UNofficial (although a rough guideline) information, and he was hoping to get it more codified at some point in the future.


Please Note: This application is a first generation data-aware web page, that likely contains some bugs.

The material here tends to change quite a bit as we come closer to our breakage system. Once we finalize some of the strength and intensity information, I will update this table to include that data. This data WILL change!

Material Type AS Mod DS Mod Encum Mod Freq Special
Alexandrite Weapon -19 DNA 110% Infrequent -
Bronze Both -5 -5 80% Common -
Iron Both 0 0 125% Very Common -
Leather Armor 0 -5 100% Very Common Non-Metallic
Obsidian Weapon -5 DNA 140% Infrequent Non-Metallic
Steel Weapon 0 DNA 105% Very Common -
Invar Both +2 ? 105% Rare Dwarven
Modwir Weapon -10 DNA 100% Common Non-Metallic
Wood Both -20 0 100% Very Common Non-Metallic
Ora Both +10 10 100% Uncommon -
Ora (White) Weapon +10 DNA 100% Very Rare Sanctified
Ora (Black) Weapon +10 DNA 100% Extrmly Rare Unholy
Imflass Both +12 +12 70% Uncommon -
Mein Both +15 +15 150% Rare Non-Metallic
Glaes Both +15 +15 150% Infrequent Non-Metallic
Mithril Both +5 +5 90% Uncommon -
Vultite Both +20 +20 80% Uncommon -
Rolaren Both +20 +20 100% Very Rare -
Golvern Both +25 +25 100% Extrmly Rare -
Veil Iron Both +25 +25 125% Extrmly Rare Magic Resist
Mithglin Weapon +15 DNA 110% Rare -
Kelyn Weapon +15 DNA 105% Very Rare -
Krodera Weapon +5 DNA 100% Extrmly Rare AntiMagic
Vaalorn Both +18 +18 90% Extrmly Rare Elven
Eahnor - - - 80% Extrmly Rare Elven
Urnon Weapon +20 DNA 100% Extrmly Rare Chaos
Rhimar Weapon +5 DNA 100% Very Rare Cold
Zorchar Weapon +5 DNA 100% Very Rare Electric
Drakar Weapon +5 DNA 100% Very Rare Heat
Gornar Weapon +5 DNA 100% Very Rare Earth
Urglaes Both +12 +24 95% Extrmly Rare Dark
Razern Weapon +10 DNA 85% Very Rare Lightly Crit Weighted
Eonake Weapon +20 DNA 80% Extrmly Rare Sanctified
Faenor Weapon +8 +8 90% Extrmly Rare Elven
Ironwood Weapon - - 80% Infrequent Non-Metallic
Witchwood Weapon -5 - 80% Rare Non-Metallic
White alloy Both ? ? ? ? -
Black alloy Both ? ? ? ? -
Low Steel Both ? ? ? ? -
High Steel Both ? ? ? ? -
Gold - ? ? ? ? -
Coraesine - ? ? ? ? -
Veniom - ? ? ? ? -
Laje - ? ? ? ? -

Note: This post originally suggested that eonake was +10. The post has been changed to reflect that eonake is +20.

Experience and Artisan Guild Limits 8/2005

Category: Artisan Skills
Topic: Forging
Message #: (Unknown)
Author: GS4-OZIAS
Date: 8/18/2005 5:41:57 PM
Subject: Re: 4 down 1 to go

From my perspective, considering how useless the artisan's guild is, I don't see the caps as really providing any benefit at all to the game.

Well, I guess that's the thing. Either the skills become useful, or they're just fluffy pastimes. With the unique features added to master-crafted weapons, and the special features being added to master-crafted footwear and clothing, we're hoping to make these skills extremely sought-after parts of a player economy.

If we can't achieve that over time, I suppose we'll need to go back and remove the limits. The limits aren't really there to hold you back from the EXP the system will award. It likely won't compete with hunting on a reward/time basis.


Category: Artisan Skills
Topic: Forging
Message #: (Unknown)
Author: GS4-OZIAS
Date: 8/19/2005 12:14:53 AM
Subject: Re: 4 down 1 to go

When the limit is in place, and you go to "master" more skills, one of your current skills will decline correct?

The mechanism is being hashed out, but basically what we're discussing is the ability to master two and then make some limited advancement in a third, to see if it's your cup of tea. An addition to ARTISAN would then allow you to select one of the other skills you're mastered in (or in your case, one of the other skills you have partial ranks in) for degradation.


Questions and Answers 7/2005

Category: Artisan Skills
Topic: Forging
Message #: (Unknown)
Date: 7/19/2005 11:54:47 AM
Subject: Re: You smile as you realize that this is the very best that you can create.

Mikos was quite explicit in stating that although you needed some kind of magic metal hammer to forge a magic metal weapon, there was no advantage to using one metal over another, and said outright that there was no reason to use anything better than mithril.

This is true. A magic hammer is a magic hammer. A perfect Vultite hammer is certainly impressive though. I settled for a mithril one.

I understand it takes less time to complete forging with a vultite hammer?

The roundtime in forging is solely dependent upon the metal being forged. The hammer has no effect on the forging roundtime.

the only bonus you get is a small one for a high logic

This is related to a chance to learn. Not a chance to get a best piece. Hammer quality (and whether you are attuned to it), Profession, Race, Metal being forged, injuries, encumbrance, and random luck ... all play a role in getting a piece (including best).

I have also converted to a paladin, can we get a listing on the bonuses they recieve or don't in the forge please?

  • Forging - small bonus
  • Crafting - small handicap

Can someone look into the forge in Teras and the grinder/hammer head glyphs to insure they're working correctly please?

I'll try to get in sometime in the next week and ensure they are all working as intended. Thanks, Cirakin


My fault. I was wrong .. that is not true.

I remembered injuries playing a part and incorrectly associated encumberance with the forging success. The code does not check for encumbrance anywhere.

Oops? Cirakin

Category: Artisan Skills
Topic: Forging
Message #: (Unknown)
Author: WYRMS
Date: 7/19/2005 11:54:47 AM
Subject: Re: You smile as you realize that this is the very best that you can create.
  • Human: NA
  • Halfling: NA
  • Giantman: NA
  • Dwarf: Crafting - bonus/Forging - small bonus
  • Elf: Crafting - bonus/Forging - small bonus
  • Half Elf: NA
  • Half Krolvin: not known (no one has said anything)
  • Sylvan: Crafting - handicap/Forging - small handicap
  • Dark Elf: Crafting - bonus/Forging - small bonus
  • Bard: Crafting - significant handicap
  • Cleric: Crafting - significant handicap
  • Empath: Crafting - significant handicap
  • Paladin: Crafting - small handicap/Forging - small bonus
  • Ranger: NA
  • Rogue: NA
  • Sorcerer: Crafting - significant handicap
  • Warrior: Crafting - small handicap/Forging - small bonus
  • Wizard: Crafting - significant handicap

Bonuses from Forging 7/2005

Category: Artisan Skills
Topic: Forging
Message #: (Unknown)
Date: 7/22/2005 10:15:43 PM
Subject: Re: Forged Weapon Qualities

Can someone tell me if I'm right, or correct me please?

  • Perfect 6% bonus
  • Superior 4% bonus
  • Hefty 4% bonus
  • Nifty 4% bonus
  • Well-crafted 4% bonus
  • Exquisite 2% bonus
  • Well-made 2% bonus
  • Elegant 2% bonus
  • Fine 2% bonus
  • Nice 0 bonus and everything below
  • Plain
  • Simple
  • Crude
  • Lop-sided
  • Flimsy


Category: Artisan Skills
Topic: Forging
Message #: (Unknown)
Date: 7/23/2005 7:34:15 AM
Subject: Re: Forged Weapon Qualities

well-made is only an elegant forge (2% bonus)

Category: Artisan Skills
Topic: Forging
Message #: (Unknown)
Date: 7/25/2005 10:07:17 AM
Subject: the effect of superior/perfect forged weapons on combat

I've been trying to figure out, what exactly does a superior or perfect weapon do when you hit something with it? from reading up on the boards, i've discoved the general concensus is that superior weapons gain +4% to DF and AvD, and perfect weapons (the uber-rare ones) gain +6% to DF and AvD.

but what exactly does that mean.. in other words, how would it compare to other combat mods like Critical or Damage weighting.

I've been working out some formulas to try and figure out exactly how good the combat mods that superior and perfect weapons receive.

lets take for example, a normal vultite falchion vs. a perfect forged vultite falchion vs. a silver-hilted vultite falchion (the decent crit weighted type)

how would each weapon perform? would the perf. forged falchion be better than the decent crit falchion?

so we head out to krolvin warriors that are wearing some brigandine armor. We know that falchions have a DF(damage factor) of .25

we know the perfect falchion has a DF of .265 .250*1.06=.265

so I figured out with the forged falchion you'd get 1 AS equilavent every 16.6666 points over 100 that you hit, compared to the normal vultite falchion .250/(.265-.250)=16.6666

soooo which weapon would hurt most ? how hard would you have to hit the krol before the enhanced Damage factor overtakes the bonus you get from the crit weighted falchion?

and, if you had to compare superior and perfect forge ratings to Critical Weighting, at which level would they be at? light, fair, somewhat, decent? maybe even Heavy critical weighting??

is any one else confused because when I work out some math even perfect forged weapons are worse than light crit weighted weapons examples: you swing the perfect forge vultite falchion at a krolvin wrarior +d100 === +200 Hit so you get +6 AS compared to the normal vultite falchion and do 26.5 raw dmg (only 26 dmg really because it is trunctated by the IFE) you swing the normal vultite falchion at a krolvin wrarior +d100 === +200 Hit 25 raw dmg you swing the silver-hilt vultite falchion at a krolvin wrarior +d100 === +200 Hit you do 25 raw dmg PLUS 4 points of dmg for critical weighting

is my math wrong here (if you can understand any of it, heh) or do better forge ratings really do absulolutely nothing ?

Compare Weighting to Perfect Weapons 7/2005

Category: Artisan Skills
Topic: Forging
Message #: (Unknown)
Date: 7/26/2005 3:49:39 PM
Subject: Re: the effect of superior/perfect forged weapons on combat

Let us ignore for the moment that forged weapons can have cool things like eblading and enchantment added, because the huge amount of work it takes to make a perfect weapon (at least) balances those out.

  • Weighting does not "kick in" until the hit achieves 1 crit rank (this is why claidhmores don't pulp things in 101 endrolls).
  • Increasing the crit rank past 9 is pointless, the max for crit randomization is always taken as 9.
  • Crit weighting does not add directly to damage done. Crit weighting adds to phantom damage for purposes of crit rank calculation only.
  • Crit weighting is not added directly. 4 points of crit weighting is only 2 points of phantom damage. Furthermore, crit weighting does not always add the max, it is randomized between max and 1 (or 0, I forget). However, let us assume for the sake of charity that weighting is always added at the maximum. It will make my conclusion all the more immutable.

We know that the weighted weapon will not always be superior to the nonweighted weapon. The forged weapon will end up doing more raw damage and the same crit damage, meaning more total damage (of course, if this doesn't occur until rank 9s, it would be fair to say that the crit weighted weapon is more desireable). The low hits are theoretically the same, but because we're only talking a 6% increase and DFs are generally small numbers, it's probably not enough to talk about. Let's take our example:

  • .250 DF, 4 points of crit weighting (somewhat weighting)
  • .265 DF, 0 points of weighting

When we hit, we get an endroll, which we subtract 100 from to find what we multiply our DF by. Let's call that x. On any given x we have:

  • Forged weapon:
    • raw damage = .265 * x
    • max crit rank = raw damage / crit divisor = (.265 * x) / 7
  • Weighted weapon:
    • raw damage = .250 * x
    • max crit rank = (.250 * x + 2) / 7

So, let's find where they're equal. Crit divisors cancel out immediately.

  • .265 * x = .250 * x + 2
  • .015 * x = 2

x = 400 / 3 = 133.3 repeating. So we know that they have equal crit ranks (assuming equal randomization [which you pretty much have to]) at that point. We also know that the 2 is going to be worth the same while the extra DF will keep adding more, so it stands to reason that the weighted weapon is superior below the break-even point, and the forged weapon is superior above.

So let's look at when x = 133. We know for each weapon that amounts to 35 damage for the purposes of crit calculation, or 5 crit ranks. We also know that 2 of those damage will be phantom for the weighted weapon, so it does 2 less damage when all is said and done. So we know that the final break even point is slightly lower. To know exactly, I'd have to have the crit tables for slash and crush handy (I don't).

The low endroll headstart the forged weapon gets only amounts to anything at 1 or 2 isolated points before the crit weighting starts to kick in, so let's ignore it and say any endroll below 233 inclusive is better for the weighted weapon. I rarely get endrolls lower than that, your mileage may vary.

Which brings us to your math. First, describing the forged bonus in terms of AS is flawed. It only makes sense in terms of raw damage. You do 1 more raw damage for every 1000/15 or 200/3 or 66.6 repeating endroll over 100. (As an aside, I am reasonably certain that (endroll * DF) is rounded, not truncated. If you have proof otherwise, I'll be glad to see it.) I am uncertain where you got 16.6 from. Enhanced DF cannot be compared to Crit Weighting in the sense of "this is always better". Even if you have enough crit weighting to ensure that the weighted weapon will reach rank 9 before the Enhanced DF, the enhanced DF will be better the moment it hits rank 9. Neither a perfectly forged weapon nor a somewhat crit weighted weapon are going to be noticeably better than their unweighted, unforged counterparts. That (in my opinion) is the chief bummer of forging.

-Anathemus' player


The perfectly forged weapon will always see an improvement in DF. For this not to be the case, the weapon would have to have a .008 DF. Superior and elegant are the same, the weapon would need a .012 DF and .024 DF, respectively (I think). It's AvD where things can and do stay the same.

-Anathemus' player

Additional Notes

From's Forging Guide: "A character's level of success at the grinder is dependent on their health, crafting skill, strength, agility and discipline bonuses, the material difficulty, their profession and race, and a random element."

Apparently the material difficulty no longer plays a part, as well as strength, agility, and discipline. Logic helps when learning how to forge or craft, but upon reaching mastery it no longer plays any part.