Interfaith Luncheon (log)

The following is a log of an Interfaith Luncheon hosted by Caylio Javilerre on 9/05/10.

Caylio says, "So."

Caylio leans back on his elbows.

Caylio says, "For those who are late come, I'm Caylio Javilerre.   Hello."

Rohese turns to face Caylio.

Rohese curtsies to Caylio.

Caylio says, "I'm not giving a "talk" today."

Caylio says, "But we are, if you're amenable, going to have a discussion about the topic at hand."

Caylio says, "How Lornon and Liabo view the existence of evil -- a discussion on the nature of evil in a divided world."

Linsha neutrally says, "I hope... we can keep it civil."

Rohese nods in agreement to Linsha.

Caylio says, "I hope so too.  It's too nice of a day to be horrible."

Caylio grins.

Caylio asks, "I'll throw out a starter.  Are the pantheons really distinguishable as good, evil and neutral?"

Speaking softly to Caylio, Rohese says, "I would counter that depends entirely on perspective."

Linsha says, "Some may think so."

Speaking softly to Caylio, Rohese adds, "On who you ask."

Maleisse agrees with Rohese.

Speaking to Rohese, Caylio asks, "So you're a relativist?  There are no absolutes?"

Rohese nods in agreement to Caylio.

Lasan remarks, "Neutrality can certainly be fairly universal."

Speaking softly to Caylio, Rohese says, "Intentions and perceptions."

Caylio asks, "So there's no absolute evil?"

Rohese looks over at Caylio and shakes her head.

Rohese softly says, "I would say not."

Linsha says, "Each side is capable of evil."

Caylio exclaims, "You're prepared though, to make an absolute statement that there is no absolute evil.  Fantastic!"

Caylio grins, clearly enthused.

Speaking softly to Caylio, Rohese says, "First I think perhaps a definition of evil would be appropriate."

Caylio says, "Okay, definition of evil."

Speaking to Aasterinian, Caylio asks, "What's your definition of evil?"

Rohese cocks her head at Aasterinian.

Aasterinian rubs his chin thoughtfully.

Aasterinian says, "It depends on viewpoint."

Aasterinian asks, "What should we base our standard upon?"

Rohese nods in greeting to Sirannon.

Speaking softly to Aasterinian, Rohese says, "There in lies the problem."

Rohese smiles.

Aasterinian asks, "If a man acts contrary to a viewers wishes, are they evil to that viewer?"

Rohese softly says, "Who determines the benchmark."

Caylio says, "If you're a perspectivist, your own, I'd imagine."

Aasterinian says, "But if he acts in accordance with the viewers wishes, from that perspective they will be seen as good."

Caylio asks, "Is there anyone who believes in absolute evil?"

Rohese glances around the area.

Lasan nods to Caylio.

Speaking to Caylio, Lasan says, "Without question."

Aydan simply says, "I believe it exists."

Speaking in Elven, Velai neutrally says, "I do as well."

Speaking to Lasan, Caylio asks, "Okay.  So what makes it absolute evil?"

Velai clears her throat.

Rohese looks thoughtfully at Lasan.

Sirannon asks, "Does anyone believe in absolute good?"

Velai says, "I believe in its existance as well."

Speaking to Caylio, Lasan says, "The absence of goodness."

Velai looks over at Sirannon and shakes her head.

Speaking to Lasan, Caylio asks, "So you're positing that one exists because of the absence of the other?"

Rohese furrows her brow.

Sirannon asks, "How can you believe in absolute evil but not absolute good?"

Speaking to Caylio, Lasan says, "One exists as a function of the other, but as in all things, there are absolutes."

Caylio says, "So what's an absolute evil act, or a good one, if you're more interested in that."

Linsha calmly suggests, "Murder?"

Sirannon asks, "To what end?"

Speaking to Caylio, Lasan says, "There is only one guide by which to decide what is good and evil, really."

Speaking to Linsha, Caylio asks, "I dare say most here have killed?"

Speaking softly to Linsha, Rohese opines, "That would depend on the intent."

Speaking to Caylio, Lasan says, "To change the destiny of a person, a thing, or an event, is an act of absolute evil."

Velai says, "Murder for its own purpose, without a higher reason behind it."

(Velai shrugs one shoulder slightly.)

Rohese softly suggests, "To benefit one's own ends, for pleasure?"

Rohese cocks her head at Velai.

Speaking to Caylio, Lasan says, "To aid that person, thing, or event in achieving it's intended destiny...Is similarly, an act of good."

Sirannon asks, "How about attempting to destroy a species simply because it is seen as inferrior?"

Sirannon asks, "Is that not absolute evil?"

Aydan says, "Perverse acts upon a child."

Speaking to Rohese, Velai says, "That is at least a purpose."

Rohese nods in agreement to Aydan.

Lasan cocks his head.

Speaking to Lasan, Maleisse asks, "But what if the intended destiny is evil?"

Speaking to Sirannon, Lasan asks, "Is it that species' destiny to be destroyed by the head?"

Caylio asks, "Can a destiny be evil, or just an act?"

Linsha asks, "Would it matter if that same child was a bringer of their own brand of evil?"

Speaking simply to Maleisse, Lasan says, "Impossible."

Velai simply says, "I make my own destiny. I do not believe in predetermined outcomes for life."

Speaking softly to Linsha, Rohese counters, "Is a child capable of evil?"

Speaking to Maleisse, Lasan says, "Each and every thing and person that you see has a destiny. Their destiny may be great, small, but it c an never be evil."

Aydan says, "That would depend entirely on if you believe the person capable of choosing their own path. If it's even possible for that to happen."

Linsha says, "Yes."

Linsha nods to Rohese.

Speaking to Rohese, Sirannon says, "I would say before a certain age no."

Caylio says, "So children.  Let's talk about those."

Sirannon says, "They are not capable of evil until they can understand evil."

Maleisse cocks her head at Caylio.

Aasterinian says, "If to slay is evil, that what of the good being who kills animals and plants (as these have as much life as he) in order to live?  What of a solider that slays another of a hostile state? His act is irrevocable, yet history shows the ephemeral nature of states and empires. Victory today may allow a tyrant to assume the throne tomorrow, and in every case our heroism and courage becomes no more than the forgotten dust of the future."

Speaking softly to Sirannon, Rohese asks, "And how is that determined by age?"

Speaking to Aydan, Lasan says, "Of course it isn't. Your destiny was determind long before you, or any of your ancestors, or even any of mine were born."

Velai blinks at Aasterinian.

Caylio asks, "Can a child really be absolutely good or evil?  Are they capable of making decisions that they're responsible for, that are that severe?"

Speaking to Rohese, Sirannon says, "The ability to understand."

Lasan furrows his brow.

Speaking softly to Caylio, Rohese opines, "A child comes into this world pure."

Sirannon says, "Before a certain age a child is incapable of understanding such abstract concepts."

Speaking to Rohese, Lasan asks, "Then what of the child who dies young?"

Speaking to Caylio, Aydan says, "There's a certain state of mind that a child reaches. The point where they can understand the thoughts and perspective of another."

Speaking softly to Caylio, Rohese adds, "It is the actions around it of others that determine its behaviour."

Lasan asks, "When do we decide that a person's childhood is over?"

Speaking to Caylio, Aydan says, "Before that point, no. After it, yes."

Caylio asks, "So if a child is raised in what we'd consider an "evil" environment, are they really evil, or just conditioned?"

Linsha says, "Again that depends on who you ask."

Aydan says, "Choice."

Speaking softly to Caylio, Rohese says, "Conditioned, they didn't come into this world with the intent to perform evil acts."

Aydan says, "Always choice."

Speaking to Lasan, Sirannon says, "I would say, when they can take responsibility for their own actions."

Caylio asks, "But what if they never see any alternative?"

Aasterinian says, "But the choices made still depend on perspective."

Rohese nods to Aasterinian.

Speaking to Sirannon, Lasan asks, "Do you take responsibility for your actions?"

Lasan cocks his head at Sirannon.

Aasterinian says, "So even then there is no absolute moral good or absolute moral evil."

Sirannon says, "Absolutely."

Speaking to Sirannon, Lasan says, "Absolutely."

Speaking softly to Aasterinian, Rohese says, "I aree, it's a spectrum of intentions and resultant behaviour."

Speaking to Sirannon, Lasan asks, "Have you never lied?"

Lasan cocks his head at Sirannon.

Aasterinian says, "To kill a vicious predator is "good" for you, but it is equally "good" from the predator's point of view to kill you and gain its sustenance thereby. To spare the predator, on the other hand, may be "good" for one who does not wish to kill; yet it only leads to the beast's slaying of other victims."

Speaking loudly to Aasterinian, Lasan says, "Hah! A discussion I have had many times."

Sirannon says, "Not that I can remember, but if I were to lie I would confess to it."

Aydan says, "If an absolute standard does exist, and I believe it does, I don't think we'd ever be able to define it. Even trying would add bias that absolute, rendering it, well, not absolute."

Speaking softly to Aasterinian, Rohese suggests, "A perpetuation of so called evil intent?"

Sirannon says, "In the end the judgment on what is considered evil and what is considered good is determined by the views of a civilization."

Linsha scoffs.

Sirannon says, "The norms and morals of the majority."

Speaking softly to Caylio, Rohese asks, "You've yet to offer your own opinion, sir, I'd be interested to hear it?"

Speaking to Rohese, Aasterinian says, "Well the predator would only be acting as its nature dictates and thus can not be considered "good" or "evil."."

Aydan says, "If it helps, I think those same absolutes would be the same thing that determines simple things such as who has the right to live, and who has the right to die. Why certain things happen to some people, while others suffer."

Speaking softly to Aasterinian, Rohese asks, "Instinct?"

Speaking to Rohese, Caylio says, "Oh, I'm a middle-of-the-road kind of guy."

Rohese smiles at Caylio.

Sirannon chuckles.

Speaking to Rohese, Caylio says, "My father calls it a lack of willingness to commit."

Aasterinian chuckles.

Sirannon asks, "Are we just talking about acts of mortal men and women?"

Caylio says, "We were aiming for a general definition of evil, before we moved into bigger things."

Rohese nods to Caylio.

Sirannon asks, "Or are we considering actions of the Gods?"

Aasterinian says, "I prefer to think in terms of Stability and Change."

Velai begins chuckling at Sirannon!

Speaking to Sirannon, Aasterinian says, "Arkati are not gods.  Merely extremely long lived and powerful mortals.  Gods do not die."

Caylio says, "My father is also the head of the Sapphire Guard, so he's definitely on the side of absolutes."

Speaking softly to Aasterinian, Rohese says, "Again that's perception, to some change is a good thing to others, it's anathema."

Speaking softly to Caylio, Rohese says, "And the point of a sword."

Speaking to Rohese, Caylio says, "He loves those."

Rohese giggles.

Speaking to Rohese, Aasterinian says, "I do not advocate one over the other.  Both are required."

Speaking to Aasterinian, Lasan asks, "Have you ever known an Arkati to die?"

Speaking softly to Aasterinian, Rohese says, "I agree."

Speaking to Caylio, Aydan says, "That is the good thing about duty and procedure. There are many absolutes, even if they might be less grand than matters concerning good and evil."

Speaking to Lasan, Aasterinian says, "There are records.  Browse the Library Aies when you have a moment."

Linsha casually observes her surroundings.

Speaking to Lasan, Velai says, "That one the aelotoi served, whatever her name was. L-something."

Speaking politely to Aydan, Rohese adds, "Because you are told what to believe and how to behave."

Speaking to Aasterinian, Lasan says, "The please, if you would. Prove to me that an Arkati has died."

Speaking carefully to Velai, Maleisse asks, "L'Naere?"

Speaking offhandedly to Maleisse, Velai says, "Something like that."

Maleisse pointedly says, "L'naere."

Maleisse nods to Velai.

Caylio says, "Let's refocus a bit."

Rohese nods to Caylio.

Linsha asks, "So here is another question. If someone is deemed as being evil are they always going to be?"

Maleisse cocks her head at Caylio.

Speaking to Lasan, Aasterinian says, "I will help you.  Search the records for an Elf by the name of Yadzari."

Speaking softly to Linsha, Rohese says, "I don't believe so."

Speaking to Rohese, Aydan says, "The system works, though. Is it perfect? No. But it brings benefits that can't be ignored, and so long as those benefits outweigh the detriments, it is acceptable. Leading to most mortals defining what is 'good' by societal convention, and 'evil' as being what goes against it."

Speaking to Aasterinian, Lasan says, "Prove that you have ever known of any person to die."

Caylio says, "Societal conventions change though."

Speaking softly to Caylio, Rohese says, "Exactly."

Caylio says, "Else, we'd not all be sitting here together."

Speaking softly to Caylio, Rohese says, "And that's what I was referring to about benchmarks."

Speaking to Caylio, Sirannon says, "So does the definition of good and evil."

Rohese softly says, "What is considered good and evil today may not have been the case in earlier societies."

Aydan says, "Conventions can be wrong, too."

Speaking softly to Aydan, Rohese asks, "But who says so?"

Speaking to Aydan, Caylio says, "Oh, certainly."

Speaking to Rohese, Aydan says, "Rebels."

Speaking to Aydan, Sirannon asks, "By other civilizations yes, but who makes them more right than others?"

Rohese smiles.

Aydan says, "I believe there are some things, maybe different for each of us, but they do exist, and thus there is an absolute of sorts, that you KNOW is wrong, right down to your very bones."

Sirannon says, "I would accept that a civilization's norms and morals are wrong if a majority of other civilizations deem them so."

Aasterinian raises an eyebrow in Sirannon's direction.

Aydan says, "When something is so wrong that you can't help but feel ill or pain because it's happening, and you HAVE to do something about it."

Speaking to Sirannon, Aasterinian says, "Then we come back to perspective."

Speaking to Sirannon, Caylio says, "My, that's dangerous."

Speaking softly to Aydan, Rohese says, "On that we can agree, sir."

Speaking to Aasterinian, Sirannon says, "That is what everything comes down to."

Vandraxas glances at Aydan.

Linsha asks, "Then someone must be evil if they never experience that?"

Sirannon says, "It is one of the many things that separate us from animals."

Aydan says, "No, but I might argue that they're unfeeling and possibly dead on the inside."

Aydan says, "And if that's the case, I'd pity them."

Linsha asks, "Because their viewpoint is different than your own?"

Speaking softly to Linsha, Rohese says, "Perhaps they do but despite "knowing" something is wrong or deemed evil, they continue to behave that way."

Speaking softly to Linsha, Rohese says, "And that is probably the best definition of evil."

Sirannon agrees with Rohese.

Caylio says, "Our own Argent, just these past few weeks, has made the decision that dark elves aren't as dangerous as they were said to be.  She's done it without consulting the majority of other civilizations."

Sirannon says, "Doing wrong intentionally and knowingly."

Rohese nods to Caylio.

Sirannon agrees with Rohese.

Caylio asks, "It's a little dangerous to assume the majority is correct, isn't it?"

Speaking to Sirannon, Aasterinian says, "That is why I believe we must return to the division between Stability and Change. Neither is "good" or "bad" in any universal sense."

Velai neutrally says, "Yes, I suppose it is."

Velai nods to Caylio.

Aydan says, "The majority may not be correct, but that doesn't mean there may not be a legitimate reason for them to feel that way that needs to be understood."

Speaking softly to Caylio, Rohese says, "One would hope decisions such as that are based on more than majority opinion."

Speaking to Caylio, Sirannon says, "The but in this civilization one person is given power to make those decisions."

Caylio says, "In the past, they haven't been."

Velai closes her eyes for a moment.

Caylio shrugs.

Speaking softly to Caylio, Rohese says, "And we should from those mistakes."

Rohese softly says, "Should learn."

Aydan says, "Doesn't give someone free run to scream about superstitions and belief without evidence, but it never hurts to ask 'why.'."

Rohese clears her throat.

Sirannon says, "That would infer that the majority of the civilization trust her to know what is right and wrong."

Velai gazes at Sirannon.

Speaking pointedly to Sirannon, Velai says, "Yes. It would."

Caylio says, "I can tell you the majority of elves on the street in Ta'Loenthra throught the decision bat crazy."

Speaking softly to Caylio, Rohese says, "History teaches us that many actions of the past should have been avoided."

Sirannon asks, "If they were truely in disagrement would they not do something to change it?"

Lasan chuckles to himself.

Speaking to Caylio, Velai says, "I would certainly never say such while residing here in Ta'Illistim, however."

Speaking amusedly to Caylio, Rohese asks, "Bat crazy?"

Speaking amusedly to himself, Aydan murmurs, "We sometimes have people say the same thing of our Barons and Emperor."

Rohese smiles at Velai.

Caylio grins at Velai.

Speaking to Rohese, Sirannon says, "I have heard bats are a bit looney."

Sirannon chuckles.

Rohese wrinkles her nose.

Caylio says, "But pretty, I'm told."

Rohese fidgets.

Linsha says, "Until they swoop overhead."

Caylio gets lost in his thoughts for a moment.

Rohese nods to Linsha.

Sirannon says, "And get caught in your hair."

Sirannon chuckles.

Caylio asks, "Wait, what were we talking about?"

Linsha says, "Or you walk through their mess."

Linsha shudders.

Caylio blinks.

Aydan neutrally says, "Should come see the results of Vespertinae's work outside of Solhaven. Might make you reconsider ever using the term 'bat crazy' again."

Aasterinian raises an eyebrow.

Speaking softly to Caylio, Rohese jokes, "That bats are evil?"

Sirannon begins chuckling at Rohese!

Caylio says, "Right."

Linsha says, "Burn them all."

Rohese smiles.

Linsha nods.

Lasan looks lost in thought.

Caylio says, "Fash'lo'nae."

Caylio says, "I was thinking about this."

Sirannon raises an eyebrow in Caylio's direction.

Rohese cocks her head at Caylio.

Maleisse leans forward.

Caylio says, "Is someone, a mortal, who follows the Grandfather and discovers some bit of horribly dangerous and scary research, evil..."

Speaking softly to Caylio, Rohese says, "No, it's what he chooses to with that information that matters."

Linsha repeats, "Perspective."

Speaking to Caylio, Aasterinian says, "Knowing someone that has done just that, no."

Aydan quietly mutters, "I call that just another day."

Sirannon asks, "Fash'lo'nae, did they actually call him to be "evil?"

Aasterinian whispers something to Aydan.

Linsha asks, "If he brought that information to a side who is loosing a war would he be good for winning?"

Velai glances between Aydan and Aasterinian.

Speaking to Linsha, Sirannon says, "Depends on why they are fighting that war."

Caylio asks, "So are they evil if they share the information, and others use it?  Or if they don't share the information, and people die?"

Sirannon says, "I do not believe information can actually be evil."

Aasterinian shakes his head.

Sirannon says, "How it is used can be."

Rohese nods in agreement to Sirannon.

Maleisse says, "It seems that misunderstanding and lack of perspective can lead to one side or effort being called evil.  In such cases, ignorance could be evil.  It is only the use of knowledge that makes it evil."

Rohese softly asks, "Can you take responsibility for the actions of others?"

Lasan says, "You know..."

Rohese nods to Maleisse.

Lasan muses, "I find it interesting that you have ... seemingly, all decided that evil is defined by death."

Vilhra says, "If you tell the actors knowing that they are likely to act in a certain way, then I think you'd be responsible."

Speaking softly to Lasan, Rohese says, "Not at all."

Speaking softly to Lasan, Rohese says, "Death can be a blessing."

Speaking to Lasan, Velai says, "Do not put words into my mouth."

Caylio winces slightly.

Lasan says, "I have yet to hear an argument that did not define evil as something that ends in death, however."

Lasan cocks his head.

Vilhra says, "That you did not do it directly yourself would not make a difference if you expected the same outcome."

Speaking softly to Vilhra, Rohese says, "There in lies the Lady Maleisse's statement about ignorance."

Linsha says, "Feel free to make one."

Rohese smiles at Vilhra.

Linsha nods to Lasan.

Aydan asks, "How many of you here would consider yourselves to be men or women of principle?"

Speaking offhandedly to Lasan, Velai says, "Fine. The wanton destruction of something beautiful."

Rohese raises her hand.

Speaking to Lasan, Sirannon says, "The lord there mentioned perverse acts upon a child as evil."

Speaking to Aydan, Caylio says, "Principle?  Yes.  Disciple, no.  Noooo."

Velai says, "To me, as a Loenthran? That is an act of evil."

Sirannon nods to Aydan.

Speaking softly to Aydan, Rohese says, "I would, sir."

Speaking to Linsha, Lasan says, "I do not, I am just curious about the seeming continuity."

Aasterinian raises an eyebrow in Aydan's direction.

Silima nods to Maleisse in greeting.

Speaking to Aydan, Aasterinian says, "I have them."

Silima nods to Vandraxas in greeting.

Velai casually glances at Silima.

Aydan asks, "Would you consider it evil to break on your principles?"

Caylio enunciates, "Dis-ci-pline.".

Silima whispers something to Maleisse.

Aydan says, "I'm not talking about a reasonable bend."

Lasan cocks his head at Velai.

Speaking to Velai, Lasan asks, "And if it was the purpose of that beautiful thing to be a memory?"

Aydan says, "Anyone who claims to be a man or woman of principle that has never bent it on occasion is a liar."

Aasterinian looks over at Aydan and shakes his head.

Silima nods slowly to Maleisse.

Speaking to Aydan, Caylio says, "Generalization."

Lasan asks, "Are not some of the things we find most beautiful memories, anyways? And perhaps grow only more so, in the confines of our mind?"

Lasan peers quizzically at Velai.

Speaking to Aydan, Vilhra says, "Would it be a break in principles, or just a shift?  Certainly perspectives can shift."

Speaking to Vilhra, Aydan says, "I'm talking about an outright break."

Aydan says, "A shift could be reasoned as growth."

Speaking to Lasan, Velai says, "You are intentionally being difficult. If the purpose of it is for it to be removed from physical existence and to be only a memory, that is not the same thing as what I was speaking of."

Sirannon says, "I would not believe a break in your principles to be evil."

Speaking to Velai, Lasan asks, "Hardly. You have seen Ta'Vaalor, have you not?"

Aydan says, "I'm talking about something so drastic that when it's done, it's keeping you awake at night for weeks because you know you were wrong about it."

Velai says, "Unfortunately."

Sirannon raises an eyebrow.

Speaking to Velai, Lasan asks, "Did you visit that Fortress, before it's recent partial destruction?"

Aydan says, "It doesn't have to be death, or even something that outright hurt another."

Velai says, "Of course."

Aydan says, "In fact... it could even be a lie that saved another. But you still lied."

Speaking to Velai, Lasan asks, "And have you visited it since?"

Speaking patiently to Lasan, Velai says, "Yes."

Vilhra asks, "If you admit you were wrong, can you be truly evil?"

Rohese surreptitiously glances at Caylio.

Speaking to Vilhra, Caylio says, "Good question."

Speaking softly to Vilhra, Rohese says, "I would have to say no."

Speaking to Vilhra, Aydan says, "No, but that doesn't mean the act itself wasn't wrong or evil."

Speaking to Velai, Lasan says, "And yet, I have heard it as a common statement, recently, that Ta'Vaalor has slipped in beauty since that attack. Yet, it's prior beauty exists only in the minds of those that saw it."

Silima asks, "But you can always make amends, can you not?"

Velai stares at Lasan.

Rohese nods to Silima.

Vilhra quietly says, "Not always."

Rohese softly says, "Remorse and restitution."

Speaking to Lasan, Velai says, "Everyone else seemed to understand what I said. I'm not sure why you're incapable."

Silima agrees with Rohese.

Speaking to Velai, Lasan says, "My poin--"

Lasan gazes at Velai.

Speaking to Silima, Aydan says, "Attempts can be made. Sometimes the ones wronged decide to not allow you that chance."

Lasan nods slowly.

Linsha says, "Some people are too uptight to ever forgive someone and in their mind always remain evil."

(Velai turns away from Lasan, returning her attention to the others in conversation.)

Caylio coughs.

Speaking to Velai, Lasan says, "Then, as I have been deemed incapable."

Lasan shakes his head.

Speaking to Linsha, Aydan says, "For once, I'll agree with you on something."

Linsha smirks.

Silima asks, "What if the person you view as 'evil' believes they are not, that their cause is justified?  What if they do not believe what they view is not evil, but they merely follow what their values dictate?"

Vilhra asks, "Which would you be more interested, redemption for yourself, or redemption in the eyes of those you had wronged?"

Caylio says, "We're talking in circles."

Rohese nods to Caylio.

Silima blushes a delicate shade of pale pink.

Caylio says, "It happens."

Caylio grins, pushing his hair out of his eyes.

Rohese softly says, "In fairness, the Lady Silima missed the early part of the discussion."

Aasterinian says, "Such is the nature of this conversation."

Rohese touches Silima.

Rohese smiles.

Aydan agrees with Aasterinian.

Silima blushes a delicate shade of pale pink.

Silima says, "Perhaps redemption for both."

Silima says, "Yourself and the people you wronged."

Aydan says, "This subject has been discussed for millennia, and I think we have as much success in resolving it as those did. Which is to say, none."

Aydan appears to be trying hard not to grin.

Rohese smiles.

Rohese nods to Aydan.

Aydan says, "That doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed."

Caylio says, "Oh, I don't care to resolve it."

Aasterinian says, "This is why I still maintain that discussing and attempting to define good and evil are fruitless."

Caylio says, "I just enjoy the conversation."

Caylio says, "If your brain hurts, or you want to hit someone because of what they said, the discussion is fruitful."

Aydan agrees with Caylio.

Speaking teasingly to Caylio, Rohese ventures, "You sir, are a protagonist."

Silima smiles.

Speaking to Rohese, Caylio exclaims, "I am no such thing!"

Rohese smiles quietly to herself.

Aasterinian says, "We all seek the gratification of our individual egos--power for some, sensual gratification for others--for it is the ego which matters most to each of us; the ego is the central pivot point of each creatures existence."

Rohese glances away.

Sirannon asks, "Antagonist?"

Sirannon chuckles.

Caylio says, "I'm just a field guy, stuck behind a podium most days, enjoying a nice cup of tea."

Vandraxas begins chuckling at Aasterinian!

Silima cocks her head.

Caylio says, "So let's look at another concrete example."

Caylio says, "V'tull."

Rohese closes her eyes for a moment.

Silima reaches up with one finger and pushes her spectacles higher on the bridge of her nose.

Caylio asks, "Are V'Tullian acts evil, if committed in the greater service of another Arkati?"

Silima asks, "Which Arkati?"

Caylio says, "Oh, pick one."

Caylio says, "Eorgina."

Maleisse shifts her weight.

Velai says, "It depends on what those acts actually are, really."

Speaking to Caylio, Lasan says, "And yet, we return to acts of evil being the causing of death."

Velai casually glances at Caylio.

Lasan shakes his head.

Silima shrugs.

Aasterinian looks over at Caylio and shakes his head.

Aydan says, "I certainly wouldn't think that any act that results in sacrificing your reason and rationality would be considered 'good', and that's often what V'tullian acts require, with the whole.. blood-rage thing."

Speaking to Lasan, Caylio says, "I didn't say that."

Caylio grins.

Speaking to Lasan, Caylio says, "You assumed what I meant."

Speaking to Caylio, Lasan asks, "You consider V'tull a concrete example, but do not reference death?"

Lasan gazes in amusement at Caylio.

Speaking to Caylio, Lasan says, "I believe you're grasping at straws, there."

Caylio says, "V'Tull is an Arkati in the Lornon pantheon.  We're discussing the pantheons.  We're discussing evil."

Aasterinian sighs.

Linsha raises the bottom of her grey satin gown from the ground slightly, as if preparing to sit down with a flounce.

Linsha sits down.

Speaking to Linsha, Caylio says, "See?  Nice."

Speaking to Caylio, Lasan asks, "And yet, V'Tull is the patron, in widest view and fact, of combat and bloodlust...no?"

Caylio pats the grass.

Linsha laughs softly, trying to hide her amusement.

Linsha nods to Caylio.

Speaking softly to Aydan, Rohese says, "You could argue that any cleric attempting to raise someone from the dead is irrational in risking a sacrifice."

Lasan casually glances at Rohese.

Lasan bites his lip.

Silima says, "If it is apart of the weave, if it is meant to happen, then it will happen.  Quite honestly, dark and light I do believe have their own places in the weave, they are a balance.  This world was not meant for one to simply co-exist without the other."

Rohese looks thoughtfully at Lasan.

Aasterinian says, "Not all combat need result in death.  Many fight for sport."

Speaking to Rohese, Lasan says, "A rare view, I find."

Rohese nods to Lasan.

Speaking to Rohese, Aydan says, "Except that such procedures, performed by rote, are made to minimize it. If done properly each time, there is no lasting risk. And if there is risk, it's minimal and the benefits outweigh the cost."

Speaking softly to Aydan, Rohese says, "Not necessarily."

Speaking to Aasterinian, Lasan asks, "I don't really consider that combat, however. Would that not be sparring?"

Speaking softly to Aydan, Rohese says, "Have you ever discussed it with a Gosenean."

Lasan furrows his brow.

Speaking to Aasterinian, Lasan adds, "Though I am hardly much of a fighter."

Silima cocks her head.

Caylio says, "Oh, Gosaena.  Fantastic."

Speaking to Lasan, Aasterinian says, "It is still combat.  Just not as messy."

Speaking to Rohese, Aydan says, "They would tend to say it's not sacrifice and more a determined point for something to succeed or fail."

Lasan gazes at Rohese.

Velai whispers something to Aasterinian.

Rohese tilts her head down.

Velai casually glances at Lasan.

Lasan slowly empties his lungs.

Rohese softly says, "Perhaps some more tea."

Rohese stands up.

Rohese clears her throat.

Rohese pours herself a glass of chilled orange tea.

Speaking to Rohese, Lasan asks, "Me, as well?"

Vandraxas stifles a yawn.

Sirannon asks, "Is the tea fermented?"

Sirannon chuckles.

Caylio leans back on his elbows.

Sirannon coughs.

Caylio says, "It won't make you drunk."

Aydan glances around the area.

Rohese lets out a long, contemplative breath.

Aydan asks, "How many of you have had the chance to read the legend of Fash'lo'nae's 'early' years?"

Speaking to Aasterinian, Lasan says, "From what I know of V'Tull, I don't often find that the Arkati, or his devout followers, often fight without the purpose of spilling blood. Again, common threads."

Caylio says, "Drinking and discussing this in mixed company would almost certainly result in my father showing up."

Speaking to Rohese, Sirannon asks, "Troubled, M'lady?"

Rohese smiles at Caylio.

Rohese looks over at Sirannon and shakes her head.

Aasterinian nods to Aydan.

Silima glances at her fingers and steeples them together.

Aydan removes a plain black tome from in his azure velvet longcoat.

Maleisse cocks her head at Aydan.

Speaking softly to Caylio, Rohese says, "Were drinking involved, I wouldn't be here."

Rohese wrinkles her nose.

Maleisse leans forward.

Rohese takes a drink from her chilled orange tea.

Aydan glances at a plain black tome in his hand.

Caylio grins at Rohese.

Vandraxas nods.

Vandraxas sits up.

Vandraxas removes a gold-veined grey marbrinus cloth from in his ivory silk cape.

Vandraxas offers Maleisse a gold-veined grey marbrinus cloth.

Maleisse accepts Vandraxas's grey marbrinus cloth.

Maleisse eyes the grey marbrinus cloth within her hand wearily as she carefully unties the bindings.  She folds the edges back and reveals a small misty grey censer positioned in the very center.

Aydan murmurs, "One of the copies made by the author himself."

Lasan looks thoughtfully at Aydan.

Lasan cocks his head.

Silima smiles.

Caylio says, "You all got very quiet.  It's slightly ominous."

Maleisse removes a plain black tome from in her grey marbrinus cloth.

Rohese laughs softly, trying to hide her amusement.

Maleisse turns her black tome around and displays its pages to Aydan.

Speaking to Caylio, Lasan says, "I'm feeling a bit besieged, really."

Lasan shrugs at Caylio.

Aydan says, "It essentially says that the fall of the Drakes was due to Fash'lo'nae himself."

Aasterinian takes a drink from his chilled orange tea.

Aydan nods to Maleisse.

Speaking to Lasan, Caylio says, "It's just a conversation.  I wouldn't take it personally."

Speaking politely to Lasan, Rohese says, "I meant no offence, sir."

Lasan looks over at Caylio and shakes his head.

Speaking flatly to Aydan, Maleisse says, "It is a theory.  I believe the author is clear about that."

Speaking quietly to Maleisse, Aydan says, "I was the one who placed a shadowglass orb into the puzzlebox to unlock it, thus resulting in the release of those tomes."

Speaking to Caylio, Lasan says, "No, hardly personally. It's something I'm used to."

Speaking softly to Lasan, Rohese says, "I was merely hoping you would expand on my point, that is all."

Speaking to Maleisse, Aydan says, "And I did say it was a legend, which implies a certain degree of suspension of belief. Especially for the point of the argument."

Speaking to Aydan, Aasterinian says, "Fash'lo'nae is one who favors Change over Stability.  The acts described in that tome can not be labeled good or evil."

Speaking to Rohese, Lasan says, "While I would love to, I'm not sure that it is...encompassed within the scope of this conversation."

Velai gazes up into the heavens.

Aydan says, "Allow me to finish, please. I may not be an elf, but I am not as ignorant on matters as some might wish to believe."

Speaking to Rohese, Lasan says, "I don't wish to derail the conversation any further."

Speaking softly to Lasan, Rohese says, "As you wish."

Caylio says, "So let's throw out one more thing, before I have to excuse myself to meet with a curator."

Silima says, "No one said you were."

Silima smiles at Aydan.

Speaking to Rohese, Lasan says, "Though...it is certainly something to be discussed."

Maleisse smiles at Aasterinian.

Lasan holds up his hand and tilts it side to side in a so-so gesture.

Maleisse carefully lays a plain black tome in the center of her grey marbrinus cloth.

Caylio asks, "How many of you, if faced with absolute good or evil in the next ten minutes, would recognize it?"

Speaking to Rohese, Lasan adds, "--At another time, perhaps."

Speaking softly to Lasan, Rohese says, "Indeed."

Velai looks thoughtful for a moment, then shrugs.

Silima says, "It would depend on what one considered evil, I imagine."

Velai raises her hand.

Silima says, "Or good."

Aydan raises his hand.

Aydan says, "I believe I would."

Velai says, "I feel that I would, if presented with what fit my own personal guidelines for such."

Velai glances at Aydan.

Maleisse leans back.

Speaking softly to Caylio, Rohese says, "I would like to think I could recognize the intent, yes."

Sirannon asks, "Would absolute evil really make itself so obvious?"

Silima says, "I believe I could."

Maleisse slowly folds the edges of her grey marbrinus cloth over her tome and binds it in place with a slender cord.

Silima shrugs.

Sirannon asks, "Is deceit not evil?"

Lasan says, "I likely wouldn't, at least."

Caylio says, "I don't think I would.  Interesting."

Sirannon says, "Or at least a part of evil."

Aydan says, "If one makes a point of listening to their conscience, and knowing their own heart and mind on matters, they can recognize it."

Sirannon says, "I would imagine that a being of absolute evil would be quite adept at hiding it, as to fit into society and act without alerting others."

Speaking dryly in Elven to Caylio, Velai says, "Then that just means you're less arrogant than I am."

Caylio says, "I'm very familiar with my mind.  My heart, less so."

Aydan says, "Or, they can choose to ignore it."

Aydan looks thoughtful for a moment, then shrugs.

Silima leans forward and rests her chin in her hand, a thoughtful expression on her face.

Speaking in Elven to Velai, Caylio says, "Oh, I'm full of myself."

Caylio winks at Velai.

Aasterinian chuckles.

Rohese giggles to herself.

Speaking in Elven, Velai lightly says, "With good reason, I'm sure."

Velai glances appreciatively at Caylio.

Velai says, "...at any rate."

Caylio stands up.

Caylio dusts off his brown wool trousers.

Rohese cocks her head at Caylio.

Caylio says, "As I said, I do have to meet with a curator, else I'd like to stay longer."

Maleisse tilts her head up.

Speaking softly to Caylio, Rohese says, "Leaving us so soom."

Aydan carefully placed a plain black tome in his azure velvet longcoat.

Speaking to Caylio, Velai says, "Thank you for leading the discussion. It was...interesting."

Caylio says, "I can't keep the Hanesyddol representative waiting."

Caylio says, "Please, take food with you."

Speaking to Caylio, Aasterinian says, "Leaving, after starting such an interesting conversation, is evil."

Rohese nods in agreement to Velai.

Velai raises an eyebrow.

Rohese laughs softly, trying to hide her amusement.

Caylio says, "It'll go to waste."

Silima grins slowly.

Speaking to Aasterinian, Caylio says, "Then I'm a right horrible bastard who wants to eat your babies."

Maleisse cocks her head at Caylio.

Rohese bites her lip.

Silima says, "I wish I hadn't missed so much of it."

Aasterinian chuckles.

Caylio says, "It was very nice to meet you all."

Aasterinian says, "Feel free."

Speaking quietly to himself, Aydan mutters, "And I thought Selanthian names and surnames were hateful to pronounce."

Velai says, "You as well."

Speaking softly to Caylio, Rohese says, "Thank you for your time, it was most enlightening."

Velai curtsies to Caylio.

Rohese curtsies to Caylio.

Linsha waves to Caylio.

Speaking to Caylio, Maleisse says, "Thank you, Caylio.  It was very good of you to host this discussion."

Caylio asks, "See you all soon, hopefully?"

Linsha says, "Thank you."