Symbol of the Proselyte (340)/saved posts
Initial Request for Input
Topic: Developer's Corner - Clerics
Message #: 2899
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: 5/11/2010 10:48:10 PM
Subject: Staff of the Proselyte (340)
Hi, all,
We've been working on a design for 340 and want to solicit player feedback on the proposal.
Staff of the Proselyte (340): Clerics are called upon to convert new followers to their flock and to punish the unrepentant. When cast upon the target's runestaff, the caster receives a Spirit CS or bolt AS bonus equal to 5 + the cleric's (INF bonus / 2) for the next few warding or bolt spells. It has base duration of 2 casts + 1 additional cast per (Spiritual Lore, Blessings skill / 50). If the target's spell is cast against an opposing alignment of the cleric (Bane/Smite) then there is an additional +CS/AS modifier equal to the cleric's (WIS bonus / 3). In addition, when the attack is made, instead of adding a d100, it will use 50 + d50 (similar to the Truehand CMAN). To gain the benefit of this effect, the target would CHANT to their runestaff, initiating the buff for the next cast.
To summarize, you'd receive about ~+25 CS/AS with your next attack spell and use a 50 + d50 roll in the attack formula. It is castable on others, but it only works on runestaves and only people with sufficient runestaff training can active it. With reasonable training, you can get about 4 charges per cast.
GameMaster Estild
Duration
Topic: Developer's Corner - Clerics
Message #: 2902
Author: GS4-OSCURO
Date: 5/11/2010 11:13:34 PM
Subject: Re: Staff of the Proselyte (340)
>>What's to stop a player from keeping it up constantly by either casting it over and over.
The duration would be refreshable, not stackable.
>>or even pre-loading it into a cloakful of runestaves?
Then that's a lot of extra effort and encumbrance to deal with. If we see that it's a problem, I'm sure we can come up with a solution, but I don't envision this being a desirable strategy.
GM Oscuro
Precedent for favoring a specific build with a spell
Topic: Developer's Corner - Clerics
Message #: 2899
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: 5/12/2010 12:13:00 AM
Subject: Re: Staff of the Proselyte (340)
>I guess I find it hard to believe that a mid to upper level cleric can't afford to keep it up constantly, even being refreshable. Though I freely admit I don't have the gamewide date to back it up. -farmer
40 mana for 4 charges? That'll work out to be around 2 creatures per cast. Most mid level clerics don't even have the mana to use Divine Fury as a staple.
>Basically, +25 CS for near capped-capped clerics. I didn't know they were lacking in that department. The 50+50 thing seems nice, but eh. Boring, yet useful. Pushes Clerics towards wrack heavy runestaff users, which will just be another reason used to nerf wracking. -CORDELIA
If Sign of Wracking gets modified, it won't be because of this spell.
..So.. you cast this at your own runestaff? Does this mean I have to keep my runestaff now?-PULSEGIVER
Yes, it'll work on your own runestaff. No, you don't have to keep your runestaff - you can give it to me.
>>What about clerics who don't want to use runestaves? - LADYFLEUR
Then you can still cast the spell on others, but you won't receive any benefit. We have similar spells like Divine Shield (1609), where we encourage but don't require certain play styles.
GameMaster Estild
Topic: Developer's Corner - Clerics
Message #: 2917
Author: GS4-OSCURO
Date: 5/12/2010 6:37:52 AM
Subject: Re: Staff of the Proselyte (340)
>>How is this BETTER than Spirit Slayer.. or is it another "to be used on others" spell?
1) You spend the mana before you go out hunting, so it doesn't cost you 40 mana unless you're using it in the field.
2) You can spread out the casts so they don't have to all happen at once. If you're just trying to kill creature X for a bounty and you cast Spirit Slayer and kill the one you're in front of and can't find another before your duration's up, then you didn't get everything out of your 40 mana. 340 allows you to better control your boosted attacks since you activate each one w/ CHANT {staff}.
3) In addition to the CS bonus, it also gives a Truehand style effect to help guarantee a hit.
4) It can be cast on others.
>>I like the idea, I think the effect should expire if the runestaff is stowed or otherwise leaves the casting cleric's hands for any reason. (ie: disarming the runestaff would remove the effect)
Like Bless Item (304), Staff of the Proselyte (340) will be able to be cast at another character and it will affect their wielded staff. It's intended to be able to be a service spell in addition to a personal buff.
GM Oscuro
Topic: Developer's Corner - Clerics
Message #: 2943
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: 5/12/2010 11:02:49 AM
Subject: Re: Staff of the Proselyte (340)
>How does this interact with Spirit Slayer? -Nick
It won't. The effect ends immediately after your cast, so it's not present for Spirit Slayer (240). Spirit Strike (117) works similarly.
>I don't like the use of the INF bonus. INF racial bonuses are set for face to face interactions between intelligent races. If your race is small or generally despised, you get a racial penalty. If your race is tall you get a racial bonus. You could argue that an elf should be able to boost a dwarf more than the dwarf boosts an elf, but I don't think an elf should be able to boost themself more than a dwarf could boost themself. If INF bonus counts, it should be the difference between cleric and target. Or just use stat/4 rather than bonus/2 in the fornula. -RATHBONER
http://www.play.net/gs4/info/stats.asp
Influence: A person's ability to influence others. Some aspects of Influence include leadership, inspiration, persuasion, intimidation, fear, presence, and personal charm or magnetism. Magic or abilities that affect the target's mind or emotions are typically more powerful for casters with a high Influence attribute.
Given the spell's concept, it makes perfect sense to use influence.
>That is more reasonable. I still dont like Luukosian clerics give better bonuses than Koar's clerics to Charl's followers though. -RATHBONER
You'll have to take that up with the Dark God. :P
>Estild, does the spell stay in effect on the item when it is not a runestaff? (i.e. the convertible/wearable [bracelet, headband, belt] runestaves from <some merchant event several years ago>.) Because I could totally see getting a full set [bracelet, headband, belt] and wearing a dozen charges of the spell, in addition to the charges on my runestaff. -KRAKII
My initial impression is yes, the effect would last if you convert the runestaff into another item, but you would only be able to activate it when it is a runestaff. However, I am not sure I like the idea of loading up on charged runestaves, so we may do something to circumvent that.
>Can the sword-canes be converted over so that the "cane" form is deemed to be a runestaff/2Hand weapon, rather than a fluff prop (which is what I believe it is now)? (Basically, this (1HEdged/2Hand)would turn them into bastard swords [only they'd be a "stick" rather than a "sword"].) -KRAKII
Item conversions rarely happen and definitely don't happen so you can make use of new spells. :P
>So, perhaps my issue isn't so much just regarding this spell but more the design philosophy for how all the spells over level 25 seem to be implemented. -Galenok
That's understandable, but given that we already have hundreds of unique spells in the game, it's exceedingly difficult to come up with new unique ideas. We're always open to suggestions from players though.
>Actually, non-staff users probably have no Aimed Spells skill (since they're not RuneStaffing, they don't care about cheap magical skills) and therefor...are probably using Really Big Weapons [2Hand or Pole Arms], which--given the training point costs--means that it will likely cost them precisely 0 DS to whip out a buffed RuneStaff to get the CS boost for their setup spell before switching back to the big stick to beat the critter to death with. -KRAKII
Not likely, as you must be able to effectively wield a runestaff to activate the effect. At the minimum, this would require 8 magical ranks per level. (We understand that's possible for even some mutant builds, so the 8 ranks per level is just an estimate).
>It sounds like a neat utility spell. There for when you need it, but not a "use on every hunt for every cast" sort of thing. -KRAKII
If it's being used for every cast on a hunt, we'll probably make an update to prohibit such activity. However, I do think it'll be used on every hunt since the idea is that you're casting it when not hunting. I envision my cleric using up all the charges each hunt. If I know I'm on my last creature for a hunt, I'm going to burn the charges since I'll just recast the spell while resting.
>Is the "trained for a staff" requirement going to be a minimum number of magic ranks, which will make it impossible for non-pures to use pre-cap, but will not stop weapon trained pures using it by swapping their weapon for a staff when they want to? -RATHBONER
It'll require a certain number of magical ranks per level.
>Sorry, this is what I dislike most about it. It really is only good for grizzleds and invasions. If you need it to hunt otherwise, you are doing it wrong. -Galenok
Clerics certainly don't need the spell. It just makes things easier every once in a while. If we only made updates on the basis of need, the game would be rather static.
GameMaster Estild
d50 roll
Topic: Developer's Corner - Clerics
Message #: 2918
Author: GS4-OSCURO
Date: 5/11/2010 6:45:49 AM
Subject: Re: Staff of the Proselyte (340)
>>A little bonus effect perhaps, but the 50+d50 roll is the major effect and I don't think that should be smite/bane.
That's not the bonus for appropriate Smite/Bane alignment - that's only the WIS/3 to CS/AS part. The 50+d50 roll is always there, regardless of target.
GM Oscuro
Effect on multi-frame spells
Topic: Developer's Corner - Clerics
Message #: 2948
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: 5/12/2010 11:21:21 AM
Subject: Re: Staff of the Proselyte (340)
>Also, does mass attack spells like 319 and divine fury get the bonuses for just 1 frame of the attack, or all frames? -KAZOKI
It would probably just last 1 frame, but you could reactivate the effect in between frames.
GameMaster Estild
Topic: Developer's Corner - Clerics
Message #: 3025
Author: GS4-OSCURO
Date: 5/12/2010 5:20:21 PM
Subject: Re: Staff of the Proselyte (340)
>>here's another question... what about the empath bolt/cs hybrid... does the buff only work for the initial bolt attack of Empathic Assault?
Only the initial bolt. As Estild said, things that happen in waves will only get the buff for the first "wave," which in the case of Empathic Assault, is the bolt.
>>just curious, because I think 309 would be a great spot for another spell of that nature if Clerics are going to have something like what you guys (GMs) are planning for 340.
You guys are really jonesing for a bolt in 309, huh?
GameMaster Oscuro
Armor failure
Topic: Developer's Corner - Clerics
Message #: 3019
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: 5/12/2010 4:22:00 PM
Subject: Re: Staff of the Proselyte (340)
>Say you CHANT {staff} and then get armor failure on the cast. Is the charge wasted? -Nick
Nope.
GameMaster Estild
Runestaff requirement removal
Topic: Developer's Corner - Clerics
Message #: 3087
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: 5/18/2010 5:06:06 PM
Subject: Re: Staff of the Proselyte (340)
After some additional discussion, we're going to amend the proposal to use symbols instead of runestaves. (We had discussed this a few days before Dgry's post...I think he may be a Savant).
We'll be doing a review to automatically update most scripted symbols, but we may also offer special merchants to convert ones that cannot be done automatically. Outside of that, we'll be updating the obelisks in the new Zul Logoth shrine to generate unlimited symbols, so that you may stock up and hand them out to your converts.
You'll only be able to grant the effect to symbols which match your deity and it's going to consume 2 spirit points. If you're granting this buff while resting, as we mostly intend, then this additional cost is minor. Using it out in the field will require a bit more discretion. Lastly, we're increasing the base charges from 2 to 3.
*Empaths will receive the full bonus until we implement the Minor Mental circle, at which we'll be converting the 1100s into a spirit/mental hybrid circle, thus only granting half the bonus.
GameMaster Estild
Topic: Developer's Corner - Clerics
Message #: 3103
Author: GS4-OSCURO
Date: 5/19/2010 6:08:42 AM
Subject: Re: 340 Symbol of the proselyte in review
>>to grant a Spirit CS or bolt AS bonus equal to 5 + the cleric's (INF bonus / 2) ( ROUNDED UP or DOWN? )
Down.
>>It has base duration of 2 casts + 1 additional cast per (Spiritual Lore, Blessings skill / 50).
We changed the base duration to 3 casts.
>>(Not sure i'm understanding this part. so if im a bane cleric then this works better on living? and if im smite it works better on undead?)
Yes.
>>and this works for spirit spells only? so bards and wizards having no access to any spirit sphere spells will get no benefit from the spell?
Only the CS portion is tied to spiritual spells. Just like other in-sphere CS boosts (425, 1612, etc.), the full CS bonus is only granted to other spells in the spiritual Sphere (MnS, MjS, Cleric, Ranger, Paladin and for a little while longer, Empath) and half the bonus is granted to hybrid spheres (Sorcerer and soon-to-be Empath). However, the bolt AS boost and die roll effect will affect other spheres of magic equally so any caster should benefit from Symbol of the Proselyte (340).
GameMaster Oscuro
Topic: Developer's Corner - Clerics
Message #: 3106
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: 5/19/2010 1:47:27 PM
Subject: Re: Symbol of the Proselyte (340)
I just peered at a Iasha white ora weapon, and my eyes misted over as I looked at this symbol of my deity. Came close to crying, I did. Though I'll assume symbols aren't always 'symbols'. -CAERLANRIG
Only worn symbols will count.
GameMaster Estild
Topic: Developer's Corner - Clerics
Message #: 3122
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: 5/20/2010 9:42:03 AM
Subject: Re: Symbol of the Proselyte (340)
Technically, any item can be designated as a holy symbol; it'll be a new property that can be added to any object. However, it's unlikely that you'll see it added to just anything. A holy symbol is a sign that represents your faith, not some mundane item.
GameMaster Estild
Arkati Requirement
Topic: Developer's Corner - Clerics
Message #: 3106
Author: GS4-OSCURO
Date: 5/19/2010 10:00:14 AM
Subject: Re: Symbol of the Proselyte (340)
>>Does this mean that clerics converted to "other" won't be able to use this spell? Or am I missing something (which is very possible)?
No, they can use it. They just need a symbol aligned to Other. If you have a holy symbol item already, there's a chance it will be auto-converted when the spell is released, otherwise, we will bring some merchants around to manually convert some symbols.
However, Clerics that have not chosen a god (or have CONVERT FORSAKEn the gods) will not be able to use Symbol of the Proselyte (340).
GameMaster Oscuro
Topic: Developer's Corner - Clerics
Message #: 3109
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: 5/19/2010 10:41:30 AM
Subject: Re: Symbol of the Proselyte (340)
Does the chanter have to have the same alignment as the symbol they are chanting to? e.g. is there any mechanical disadvantage to a Fash' sorc getting a Lumnis symbol from a Lumnis cleric and chanting to it or do they get the full bonus? -RATHBONER
No, but they're going to be sharing the caster's faith by having to wear the symbol. :)
How will it work for area effect web? Will it boost the hidden CS roll to entangle or not? -RATHBONER
Yes.
See how it goes perhaps, but I think you will probably have to come up with another limiting mechanism as well as the spirit drain. Outside of CoL I don't think it will be too difficult to maintain a sack of symbols. -RATHBONER
The same restriction that we previously outlined for using different runestaves will apply to using different symbols. Meaning, once you active the effect from a specific symbol, you can't active the effect from a different symbol for ten minutes.
GameMaster Estild
Testing
Topic: Developer's Corner - Clerics
Message #: 3452
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: 5/16/2011 5:52:27 PM
Subject: Symbol of the Proselyte (340) Testing
Later tonight, I'll be deploying Symbol of the Proselyte (340) to the test instance. (I will post an update to this thread once it is ready.) While there, it is available for testing and feedback. Any bugs and feedback should be posted in this thread. Below is some information regarding the spell to help players know the intended mechanics:
Symbol of the Proselyte (340): Clerics are called upon to convert new followers to their flock and to punish the unrepentant. When cast upon a holy symbol that matches the caster's deity, the wielder of the symbol is able to receive a Spirit CS or bolt AS bonus equal to 5 + the caster's (INF bonus / 2) for the next few warding or bolt spells. It has base duration of 3 casts + 1 additional cast per (Spiritual Lore, Blessings skill / 50). If the target's spell is cast against an opposing alignment of the caster's deity (Bane/Smite) then there is an additional +CS/AS modifier equal to the caster's (WIS bonus / 3). In addition, when the attack is made, instead of adding a d100, it will use 50 + d50 (similar to the Truehand CMAN). To gain the benefit of this effect, the target should CHANT to the symbol, initiating the buff for the next cast (up to 30 seconds). It consumes 2 spirit points to cast this spell upon a symbol.
Notes:
- The spell is castable on others or specifically at objects. When cast at players (or with no target, to specify yourself), it will check the target's hands for the symbol.
- A holy symbol is a predefined object. Clerics and Paladins can generate unlimited number of these symbols at the Zul Logoth shrine. Old symbols (sold from various merchants) will automatically be converted to the new system if it can detect the deity of the symbol. This is usually done by matching the previous descriptions of old symbols or if the deity name is in the description and the object is a "symbol".
- If you have a symbol that does not automatically convert to work with the spell and you think it is a bug, please BUGITEM it. This will provide me with the exact details regarding the object so that I may investigate it fully.
- Clerics and Paladins can APPRAISE a symbol to determine which deity it is set to.
- Once the spell goes live, we'll be running a few merchant services to convert old symbols that could not be automatically converted.
- Holy symbols for this system can only be dedicated to a single deity. If the symbol is scripted and provides different messaging/effects based upon CONVERT status, it will not work (since the deity changes based upon the user's CONVERT status).
- Once a player activates the buff from a symbol, they cannot activate the buff from any other symbol for 10 minutes.
- The symbol must be worn before a player can CHANT to it to activate the buff.
Below is a preview of the spell:
First Person:
>prep 340 You raise your hand while murmuring a soft orison, focusing on the Symbol of the Proselyte spell... Your spell is ready. >cast You gesture. You rest your hand atop your banded onyx key symbol. The edges of your hand go black, and from the core of the symbol shines a golden light. The effect is not unlike light through a keyhole. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. > >chant symbol You chant a reverent orison and lightly clasp your banded onyx key symbol. A rush of divine power washes over you. Your symbol pulses once and you feel the eternal watchfulness of Lorminstra staring through your eyes. > >incant 201 You trace a sign while beseeching the spirits to empower you with the Calm spell... Your spell is ready. You gesture at a giant rat. CS: +344 - TD: +3 + CvA: +25 + 50 + d50: +29 == +445 Warding failed! A calm washes over a giant rat. The divine power suffusing your actions wanes, leaving you bereft of Lorminstra's aid. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
Third Person:
Estild gestures. Estild rests his hand atop his banded onyx key symbol. The edges of his hand go black, and from the core of the symbol shines a golden light. The effect is not unlike light through a keyhole. > Estild chants a reverent orison and lightly clasp his banded onyx key symbol. A rush of golden light flows out of his symbol, attaching itself to him like a second skin of infinite points of light.
GameMaster Estild
Topic: Developer's Corner - Clerics
Message #: 3463
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: 5/17/2011 7:31:39 PM
Subject: Symbol of the Proselyte (340) Testing
SWELLMAN 1 - The symbol does not grant the CS or AS bonus on the final charge held in the symbol, but you do get the +50 +50d roll, on the final charge.
Fixed.
SWELLMAN 2 - The bonus doesn't get applied to 319.
This isn't intentionally. Due to how Divine Wrath (319) is setup, it'll require an update to account for this spell.
SWELLMAN 3 - The 10 minute cool down was not in effect in the test instance.
I think you're misunderstanding the 10 minute cooldown. The cooldown only applies to activating the buff from different symbols. Specifically, you can use all the charges from a single symbol in any amount of time. You can also cast 340 at any number of symbols in any amount of time. However, once a symbol is out of charges, you can't just get out another symbol to use. You can recast the spell at the original symbol (thus costing 40 mana and 2 spirit during a hunt) if you really wanted to though.
SWELLMAN Suggestions after using it? 1- Make it so that each CHANT lasts for several casts, rather than just one. Base of 1 cast, chance for more based off of lore, perhaps religion. Or - Have it last a flat 30 seconds per CHANT. 2- Change the cool down from 10min per CHANT to 10min per Cast of 340.
We're unlikely to implement the first idea, as the spell is not intended as a persistent effect. It's a quick boost for a single attack when you need it, similar to Spirit Strike (117). As for your second idea, see my above paragraph about the cooldown.
UNICORN3 Does this mean a cleric can cast at an infinite number of symbols in advance and have them stored up for future use?
You can, but anytime you CHANT symbol to activate the buff, you're attuned to that particular symbol for 10 minutes and cannot activate the buff from another symbol during that time.
UNICORN3 Do influence enhancives count for the purpose of raising the bonus?
Yes.
Also, negative stat bonuses won't allow the base mod to go below 5 and the alignment mod to go below 0. (No negative CS/AS for using the spell).
GameMaster Estild
Topic: Developer's Corner - Clerics
Message #: 3465
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: 5/17/2011 10:15:04 PM
Subject: Symbol of the Proselyte (340) Testing
UNICORN3 This is pretty cool. Can you cast at the original symbol to refresh it if part of the charges have been used, but not all? Does INF bonus/2 round up or truncate?
You can refresh the number of charges (and combat modifiers) by casting again at the symbol at anytime.
It truncates for the combat modifiers.
GameMaster Estild
Topic: Developer's Corner - Clerics
Message #: 3467
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: 5/17/2011 10:45:14 PM
Subject: Symbol of the Proselyte (340) Testing
UNICORN3 Does this mean that if the caster is Bane aligned, the target will get a boost to casts against the undead? Do wisdom enhancives count for this additional boost?
It means if the casting Cleric is Bane aligned, the symbol wielder will get a bonus when casting against the living. Yes, wisdom enhancives will boost the alignment bonus.
GameMaster Estild
Topic: Developer's Corner - Clerics
Message #: 284
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: 06/02/2011 12:10 PM CDT
Subject: Symbol of the Proselyte (340) Testing
WHITEDB10 I use a trident talisman won in a drawing on Mist harbor, is this useable or does it have to be a symbol?
As Godefroy points out, casting Symbol of the Proselyte (340) at specific items will attempt to automatically convert them. Currently, this includes:
- Any item with the deity name in the article or adjective and has the noun of "symbol".
- Any off the shelf deity symbol sold at previous years' Ebon Gate.
- Brother Weatherby's symbols
- Symbols from the new Zul Logoth omni-shrine (from the Pilgrimage of Faith event) (I think we need to establish a more concise name for this location).
- Symbols from Intercession (325, T5) (technically, they're the same symbols from the Zul Logoth shrine).
Lastly, we will schedule a few events at varying times where a merchant will be available to manually convert items. It won't be a limited service; instead we'll run the merchant as often as necessary to ensure everyone gets a chance to get their existing symbols converted to work with the spell.
GameMaster Estild
Spell Release
Topic: Cleric Spells
Message #: 445
Author: GS4-ESTILD
Date: 08/29/2011 07:56 PM CDT
Subject: Symbol of the Proselyte (340) Released
Symbol of the Proselyte (340) has now been released.
http://www.play.net/gs4/info/spells/spelllist.asp?circle=7#340
Clerics are called upon to convert new followers to their flock and to punish the unrepentant. By using a portion of their spirit, a cleric is able to imbue a holy symbol with the blessing of their deity. The symbol can then be worn and activated via CHANT to provide a bonus to the user's next attack. The bonus is a modifier to Spirit Casting Strength or Bolt Attack Strength equal to 5 + (Influence bonus / 2). If the attack is made against a target of the cleric's deity's opposing alignment, an additional bonus of (Wisdom bonus / 3) is applied. In addition, when an attack is made, it will have a truehand effect which changes the standard attack d100 roll to 50 + d50. Symbols are able to hold a number of charges equal to 3 + (Spiritual Lore, Blessings skill / 50). Clerics are able to create holy symbols of their deity at DragonSpine Fane, which can be reached via the Ancient Passage in Zul Logoth. These symbols can then be blessed and handed out in an attempt to convert new followers to the fold. Casting this spell consumes two spirit points. Once a symbol is activated, a user becomes attuned to it for ten minutes. This prevents them from using any other holy symbol for the same effect for that duration.
A special thanks to GameMaster Itzel for her awesome work on the deity specific messaging!
Clerics, and Paladins, may APPRAISE a symbol to determine if it is a valid holy symbol. Casting 340 at a symbol will attempt to auto convert it. Every attempt was made to auto convert any old symbols, but a lot of unique symbols will be missed. So, in the next week or two, I'll be offering a merchant service (more than once) to manually convert any symbols to the new system. Check back to this thread for updates on that.
GameMaster Estild