Treasure system/saved posts
Ok, if this isn't the famed new treasure system, it's one hell of a bug.. today, reports of creatures suddenly going on welfare have swept the lands, ages of critters ranging from the ST to pyrothags and devils. I hunted pyrothags for two hours, and got two boxes, each weighing 11 pounds. Not A SINGLE coin, and one 1k gem.
Well, you note you realize it may be the new treasure system. What was the new treasure system specifically going to do? After two hours you didn't think to try some odd critters?
I really loath giving an example, but one in the castle isn't that bad since it's overall harder to get too. If I don't, everyone is going to think every critter is poor now.
Troll Kings. The old treasure chance was this:
- 10% chance of chest with lvl 4 treasure, or:
- 20% chance of an item
- 0 - 320 silvers
- 54% chance of a gem type 0 - 5
Right now a troll king's treasure is this:
- [CrtrTreasureTrax|s133] a massive troll king  searched, 3 is returned as the modifier
- [Base treasure level: 5]
- [Adjusted treasure level: 8]
- [11% chance for chest, D100:70]
- [35% chance for silvers, D100:6] It had 559 silvers on it. You gather the remaining 559 coins.
- [60% chance for a gem, D100:39] It had a green sapphire on it!
- [30% chance for an item, D100:22] Interesting, it carried a small statue with it. It had nothing else of value.
For anyone that wonders what GMs see, the above is a straight capture. ;)
The chance of finding a chest has increased. The level of chest found has increased dramatically when one IS found. Silvers now range more than double (800 actually) what it was before carried on the King. The chance of finding a gem is 6% higher. On a found gem you will actually have a better chance at a better gem since you get a random roll for a gem for 0 to 8 here, and since 6 is the maximum gem level, on a 6, 7, or 8, you get a level 6 gem. There is a 10% better chance of finding an item.
I've looked at a lot of critters, and those underhunted ones have really gone up. There are also a number of players right now quietly chalking up wealth from critters, and keeping clammed up about it so no one else overruns them. :)
Tracking was reset early this morning, and this was started this afternoon. What this means is that for a little while, there is going to be fairly quick fluctuations as people swarm underhunted creatures, bringing them back down, and then find another one. We have enough hunting in GemStone though that after a week at most, things are going to even out. Once it does, I can take a harder look at the lower critters to see if the low-end needs adjusting, and vice-versa.
Remember the lowest level critters aren't affected down as much. A kobold is severely overhunted, and carries a -3 mod right now. You can't go below the 1 it starts with, so it's still 1. It is harder to find a gem or item now. You still find to 100 loose silvers though, and there is actually twice the chance of finding a chest with the new system compared to the old.
Ghosts on the other hand is where that 3 currently went, and they carry level 4 treasure. Any young clerics with hold should rush over there. ;) Though it isn't in yet, counting a critter like a ghost that can only generate treasure with a successful hold and search, will only count toward the kills when that happens, and not every time one is killed. It was one of the player suggestions from a cleric that was concerned their treasure level would be much lowered from Voln hunters.
The wealth hasn't poofed, it's just moved, and will continue moving around as people over and under hunt critters. If it's a critter that doesn't have any other critter in the few levels around it that also carries treasure, to compare itself too, then no matter how much it's hunted, it's treasure level can't go down.
1. The number of kills determines the treasure, right? So if an area has a really really slow Gen rate, the critters will be richer?
2. Will the critter skin prices be adjusted soon, too?
3. How are the few special critters that require extra perception to find extra treasure affected? You mentioned that there was a consideration for repelling (not holding :P) clerics. Why not make a consideration for the more preceptive hunters?
I hope you'll respond to #1 :)
1> Yes. Creatures that don't gen as fast, can't be killed as fast, so will get a higher return. The thing is though that player population has an affect on creature generation, so when the treasure level goes up, it attracts more players, more creatures are genned and killed, and the treasure level goes back down again. What will happen in the long run is the harder/slower to kill/slower genning creature, will prolly get a bonus of 1, where the easier/faster to kill/faster genning creature, will get a -1 to balance it out. The treasure is the bonus to players who choose not to take a path of least resistance for experience.
2> We're going to do something similar with skins too. With that change, also have fluctuations for quality of skins, and that determined by skinning success/skill. Empaths and Rangers will be the ones that will benefit most from that because of their normal skills. Any player that wants to train for that though, would benefit.
3> If a creature has it's own unique way of finding certain treasure on it, then it wouldn't be affected by the new system. If there's a critter for instance that perception helps to find a twingdoodle on it, that's on the creature's script. Even if it calls the normal treasure generation scripts after, one doesn't affect the other.
Another question: What about critters that are fairly difficult for their age. In the old system, the difficulty was compensated by their large amounts of treasure. Now it seems there is no reason to hunt an extremely difficult creature. I'm hoping that the treasure on these types will go back up as less people hunt them, but as of right now, it certainly hasn't. I'm referring to arch wights in particular. They used to carry 2-4k in silvers in a box, and many wights had 100-300 silver on them. Now, most I've found was 58 silver on one, and less than 200 in a box. Considering how dangerous their boils and clouds can be, it hardly seems worth the trouble. And one more thing, places like Icemule have little choice in critter variety. If you're a set age, you have two or three things to hunt. Right now, all of them are poor, so do you really want to drive people out of town just because the hunting areas are overcrowded?
Arch wights are underhunted?
- 170 21 - "an Arachne servant"
- 2875 20 - "an arch wight" Undead
- 526 18 - "a storm giant"
- 953 20 - "a frost giant"
- 1102 20 - "a steel golem"
Arch wights are way overhunted because they were rich, and a target for cash hunters which got no experience for them, they could be killed in one or two strokes, and grab the cash. Since this just started, they were being overhunted, the treasure dropped. As soon as those that were only hunting them for treasure go elsewhere because they are no longer so attractive, it will go back up because it is a hard critter to kill for it's level.
As for the other towns. Those old poor critters aren't poor anymore. Monkeys have always been poor, as with many other RR critters. Right now, they're a goldmine. This system has to cause migration to those other towns now, that was the biggest reason for it, to spread player populations out, instead of having them fight crowds those selected wealthy critters in hordes. It's kinda sad because River's Rest was such a nice place. :) The current residents there complained about lack of treasure though, and whether it was just flat out added there, or if it was done with this adjusting treasure system, it was going to bring crowds either way. People follow money.
Overall though this will mean the less populated the town, the less hunting pressure it will see, so will be higher bearing in treasure compared to more populated towns. I think the smaller towns will always level out to be less populated, so after this levels out, those in the small towns will be better off as far as treasure.
Also, one of the questions that came up when this was originally posted was if the same critter in two different towns would be counted differently. The answer is yes. So an overhunted zingbat in one town would be degraded, and an underhunted zingbat in another town will be upgraded.
2008 PostsWeapons are not found in boxes anymore, they are only found on creatures who actually use them. If a creature has an usual weapon it can either be an autogenerated one from the treasure system (things like those sky blue mithril falchions or enhancive drake flamberges you find) or they can be unique items crafted by GM's and fed into the special treasure hopper. (Essentially a "boxfound", but in the hands of the creature instead.)
It has long been our objective to reward players for being challenged. Special GM-made items released through creature loot, for instance, could only be found if the player searching the creature could learn from the creature. Our treasure system is also based off of the assumption that underhunted creatures are either relatively hard for their level or are in remote areas, so their treasure is increased while overhunted creatures (assumed to be easy relative to their peers) see reduced treasure.
In an effort to provide greater incentives to group hunt and to try greater challenges, several changes have been implemented regarding experience and creature loot.
- Thanks to GM Strathspey, we have a new-and-improved super-cool loot generator. This expands on the previous generator that would create spiffy weaponry for creatures to use, adding a wide new range of possibilities. Creatures can now be found wielding not only snazzy weaponry, but also shields. Their closely guarded goodies can now include weapons, shields, armor, armor accessories, and jewelry trinkets. The available attributes have also been greatly expanded, now including multi-bonus enhancives, defender items, TD enhancing items, temp bonus items, resistance items, and more. With higher treasure ratings, the greater the potential for exceptional items.
- An improved estimation of relative risk and reward.
- Uphunting by 5+ levels will increase the treasure rating, resulting in a better chance for special goodies and improving the odds for regular loot. The greater the uphunting, the greater the treasure rating modifier.
- Underhunting by 10+ levels will result in a reduction in treasure rating (resulting in no chance for special goodies and a reduced chance for other loot).
- For determination of Uphunting/Underhunting modifiers, all contributing players are factored in. If Bob the 100th level Cleric Binds hill trolls so Billy the 5th level warrior can kill them, the treasure rating factors in that Bob is way underhunting. (Way!) Treasure is no longer based just on the searcher's level.
- ++ This last point can be mostly, but not entirely, mitigated if two or more people who can learn from the creature provide the vast majority of the contribution toward the kill.
- Consideration of the number of contributors. If two or more players contribute to the death of a creature, the treasure rating is increased.
In addition to these changes, we have made some changes to help those who want to try their hand at grouping up and uphunting undead. The following spells/abilities will each enhance the player's resistance: Dauntless, Bravery, Heroism, and Symbol of Courage. In each case, the spell/ability causes the player to be treated as if he were 3 levels higher for resistance purposes. The benefits from these spells/abilities are cumulative, e.g., having both Bravery and Heroism active would result in the player being treated as if he were 6 levels higher.
Want to find great treasure and to maximize your chances of finding a special goodie? Find something 10+ levels higher than you that doesn't have a lot of hunting pressure, grab some buddies for the group bonus, and hope to survive!
Q1: If I'm way higher level (Way!) than a creature I need to kill for alchemy drops, how can I get those drops now?
A1: Relative level and hunting pressure are not factors in determining if an alchemy drop is found. Feel free to lay waste to those sultry sirens for their hair.
Q2: What is a "contributor"?
A2: A contributor is anyone who directly assists in incapacitating, hindering, or killing the creature. This includes Binding, Tackling, Cheapshotting, E-waving, and the like. It does not include indirect assistance, such as spelling up your buddy, Guard or Protect, group-boosting warcries, etc.
Q3: I enjoy taking my capped Empath out with my low level friends to help them hunt. Will my friends have no chance at special goodies if I help?
A3: Weapons and shields wielded by creatures are just as likely to be found regardless of your presence. Outside of that, if your help comes in the form of buffing up your friends or healing, you will have no effect on their chances for loot. If, however, you are Binding, Sympathizing, Unbalancing, or similarly assisting them with killing the creatures, then yes, the creature loot will factor in that you are underhunting significantly.
Disclaimer: The management is not responsible for bards going hoarse from too much loresinging.
<<Any chance someone who DOES have the required level of authority could confirm either the time interval between Random Charge Drainer Thing checks, or that we're not going to ever see that info?>>
We will not be revealing the specific time interval.
<<Various anecdotal complaints about hunting in area X for Y long and not getting great loot>>
Our trackers show that the global release rate of treasure (silvers, gems, boxes, etc.) for the past week is essentially the same as it was for the two weeks prior to the changes. Last week had more loot going out than before, but I consider that to be mostly attributable to the rush of players looking to find the new goodies.
It is not unexpected that a specific individual might find less loot on a hunt, or even a series of hunts, as luck is a significant factor in determining how much a player finds, especially for boxes. From the anecdotes presented here, though, in many cases I see players assuming that creature X is underhunted when it's not (and it may even be overhunted). Also, uphunting a creature doesn't necessarily mean that you'll get great loot. My observation is that the creatures that players often tend to seek for uphunting are creatures that are easy for their level. These creatures tend to be overhunted, for obvious reasons, which would mean that the overhunted bonus is partly or completely offsetting your uphunting bonus. You may find better results from tracking down remote or hard creatures closer to your level.
On that last point, another thing to consider is that just because creature X is hunted much less than creature Y doesn't mean that creature X is an underhunted creature. It may well be that creature X's hunting pressure is normal when compared to the entire peer group. For example, around Wehnimer's Landing, ogre warriors are hunted significantly less than arch wights and fire guardians, currently. It's not that ogre warriors are underhunted (they're normal for their group), it's that the arch wights and fire guardians are heavily overhunted. There are several other creatures in that peer group, though, that are underhunted and dropping above average loot.
>>Question: Do area webs count?
Putting one down doesn't contribute towards a kill, but if something is ensnared in your area web, it counts, yes.
- GM Oscuro -
>>I'm actually somewhat surprised if the treasure system works like that. I would have guessed that treasure was set up in a common pool for all critters of like level, and averaged over all those critters with regard to baseline and hunting pressure. Therefore a pool with only a solitary creature should never have reduced (or greater) treasure than baseline, since the pool wouldn't vary.
This is exactly how it works.
- GM Oscuro -
Value is tied into a formula when it comes to mechanical items. In some cases, something that someone might find valuable could have a low price, but it's not too common. For example, spears have a very low value for some reason. Same with quarterstaves. Daggers too while we're at it. Even higher enchanted ones with special properties. Full plate, even just plain mithril full plate, will have a high value.
Now when we hand make items, we can add value to things, but it should definitely be in the scope of the item's properties. Making a 1x dagger with a long description and a loresong might not warrant me to set the value high enough to not be sold for over 35k at the pawn. Remember, the value of the item isn't 35000 silvers when the pawnshop offers you the cap. It's more like 80000 silvers. So value isn't the best gauge.
The other thing to consider is treasure level also highly determines item value. Sea nymphs aren't going to be generating the same feeder quality items at Ithzir. But we still make items for all levels. So something unique will have a relatively low value on a sea nymph by default.
And I think we've all been a tad clouded by mechanical items in this thread. Since that's mostly what we're talking about. But fluff also has a pretty big allure too. And fluff items don't really have a value range like mechanical items.
Automated scripts do toss out items pretty frequently though. We see this more often at EG with digging and games.
>>>You can not do this at cap, there are only 3 hunting grounds and they stay constantly pushed down because of hunting pressure.
>Thats not how pressure works. Equal pressure means none are down (and none are up). Treasure only shifts when pressure is unequal.
This is correct. Hunting ground pressure is relative to one another. We don't define set numbers as being "over-hunted" and "under-hunted". Only if hunting areas within the same level grouping deviate by sufficient margins from one another is one considered "over" or "under" hunted.
With the release of several items in our SimuCoin shop, we want you, the players, to have a chance to earn some of those rewards in game. We are introducing drops of our Enhancive Pauses, Urchin Guide Tokens, and Locker Runner Contracts. How can you find these new items? Simple! Just hunt like you normally would for a chance at one of these rewards. Premium subscribers have a daily boost to their chances at finding their first drop each day, but do not fret, if you have a basic account, you will also have the ability to find this loot, should you be lucky enough!
I think there is a misunderstanding here. Everything in this game has hunting pressure. The only reason why Reim didn't have it was because it was on a new realm (Reim's personal realm) and Retser made a new creature profile similar to bandits/Grimswarm. We generally re-skin a lot of our creatures, so this isn't something that comes up often. But the Necropolis, Night at the Academy, Troubled Waters, etc all have hunting pressure. The loot that is being harvested from Reim that is affected by hunting pressure is what we call incidental loot. The true meat and potatoes of Reim was never the incidental loot. Now we certainly understand the area is being farmed heavily from organized groups, but from the design point of the area, this isn't something that was ever intended.
As for other things that act similar. We have bandits and Grimswarm who both are affected by levels 0 to 100. The difference being they are spread across multiple realms. Warcamps are excluded, since their loot (the supply chest) is done differently. Over 70% of all Reim entries are the daily Premium uses, so Reim has been balanced with that in mind. Hunting pressure also self monitors the situation as well. Loot, for example, resets a lot differently than perceived. There are a lot of factors at play, and it requires a lot of research on the player side. Not just with Reim, but just general game play. We use to have a larger community who participated in this area years ago.
Reim still has a lot going for it. A to-scale undead hunting area available all the time. Premium users can enjoy it for 2 hours a day. There are achievements, scrip, unique titles, boss battles with extra loot, puzzles, and plenty of extras that come along with the Reim energy and reputation system. The fact that we've had 6 months of uncapped loot gains in the area is being seen as a negative, but there has been a pretty large benefit to those who have been farming it so heavily. The current pressure drop isn't that severe, when you look at places like OTF and Nelemar. Asking to allow us to remove game balance and some of the core mechanics of the game aren't something we'll change though. Fixing a mistake with allowing a mistake isn't good game design.