Gswiki:Village pump/Archive 005

Copied articles

It seems a user from another GS-related Wiki, http://www.gs4.org/, has started copying articles directly from Krakiipedia. I just wanted to make everyone aware. -Andy ^talk 13:19, 27 September 2006 (EDT)

Not to mention, copying information directly from Simu's website as well (without citation). A strict no no in any Wiki world. I'd suppose a letter/email from Simu would probably scare them into stopping that. Not sure what can be done about them lifting our own stuff. Could Oliver, as owner of the site, and technically, owner of the intellectual property send 'em a letter? I don't believe I've seen any statement on KP that claims that all work is placed in the public domain. Rail 10:40, 28 September 2006 (EDT)

It appears that SUGARBOY234554 is the primary culprit. He gripes about KP, then goes and lifts everything from here. Thatta boy. Evidence: Here's his KP user info and here's his GS4 Player info. Sadly, he ripped himself off, as well. Rail 10:52, 28 September 2006 (EDT)

I finally managed to wrangle a conversation with GS4.org's owner, Electrawn. He was more concerned about any possible copyright problems, than about the mass copying of KP articles. Basically, he's not going to do anything and seems not to have any problem with what occurred. All I can add is that lets keep on adding great content to KP and if GS4.org wants to be a mirror, but with less updated and expanded content, let 'em. Rail 18:28, 2 October 2006 (EDT)

Seems like a fair enough solution, so long as our friend gives credit where credit is due. I've yet to hear anything from the one responsable for copying the articles, so his compliance would be... difficult to obtain if he doesn't understand. -Andy ^talk 02:49, 3 October 2006 (EDT)

Race templates

Elves

The fun continues! Here's a quick change of the human template to an elven template. If no complaints, I, or someone, can go smack on the elven house pages. Rail 22:21, 6 September 2006 (EDT) I went and added the cities and town's section to the template. The templates can really act as a springboard for all things elvish (or any race, with regard to their template). If this is like, I can add a cities and town's section to the human template. Rail 22:30, 6 September 2006 (EDT)

Dwarves

And the Dwarves come marching in. I've done the same treatment for the dwarves...apparently, there are no dwarf fans on the KP. Erm. Rail 23:56, 6 September 2006 (EDT)

HK's

Quick and easy. I know of one other HK town, from the Sankir quest, where folks visited for the night before heading off the next morning. Problem. I can't remember its name. I'll have to dig around for it. Rail 00:27, 7 September 2006 (EDT) Template:Half-Krolvins

Alright, U and I were doing some brainstorming just now and some rabid editing, trying to make these just right because still, it just doesn't seem... Perfect... So I went through and added the little info bit on the template page with links to stuff. Then, I was rearranging stuff and all that and really, found a big problem with the human template, and that is that the links that SHOULD be to cultures are actually to locations, and that is all bizaare. This seems to be a human-specific problem, as the others don't seem so bad... But maybe a solution would be to have [[Duchy of Aldora#Aldorans|Aldora]] in there to link to sections that discuss just the culture/people, or just separate pages... But the links from the "Cultures" section should definitely go to a description of the people. I've had a few beers so maybe that doesn't make as much sense as it could, but... Yeah. Oh, also, just noticed that this page is in a bunch of categories now, from having the template pages on it, so that shouldn't be. justin ^talk 03:03, 7 September 2006 (EDT)

It wasn't a mistake, but by design. It just doesn't make sense to have dual articles for whats basically the same topic. I.E., we shouldn't have Torre and Torre (culture). The human cultures are in essence, just locations where humans are from. Simu set up their documentation in the exact same manner. The perfect article on a human culture should have everything about that culture, geography, economy, traditions and history. The only time this should be different, is if the history of the province is long enough to warrant its own article. If asked to define "Torre culture" there is no information that tells you how a Torren is supposed to think, act, or behave. This all must be disseminated from the total information about the province and humans in general. I strongly recommend rolling back most, if not all the changes incorporated. As for the the Village Pump page being in cats, none of the racial templates should have had any code for category inclusion. Rail 08:14, 7 September 2006 (EDT)

Hmmmm, sorry about any confusion or misunderstanding or whatever, but here I'll try to catalog my changes and rationalize them. If you don't like, them, feel free to change anything back. You're right about the humans/cultures thing and I understand where you are coming from on it, and definitely had that view for awhile as I was poking through the play.net humans docs and even (gag) going through the first stages of rolling up a human ;). However, to my mind, the problem is that when we make a general race template, it should be designed well enough such that it is applicable to all the races; the categories should work just as well for Humans as Elves. So when you look at elves, it works out beautifully. There is the category for each house, and a category for each of the cities associated with those houses, plus a couple. So I'd expect that the Humans page would have a list of cultures (similar to the elven houses) and then a list of cities/towns (which is probably similar to the list of cultures, which seems horribly redundant). So now what? We have something where our template won't be consistent, and that's what is really bothering me. I don't know, but it just doesn't seem quite right with respect to the humans yet, though I don't know what else to do. Feel free to change anything about it or try to explain your vision a bit more. Here are a list of changes I'd made and why, you can roll most of them back if you'd like:

• Added text pointing to the nav template page and links and such to each template (something that should be on ever nav template page - don't take this away)
• Changed the titles from, say, "Elven Cultures" to "Elf" since the box is descrbing both elven cultures and elven cities. The previous title no longer seemed appropriate.
• Added a couple of the cities that are generally associated with humans to the human template.
• Shortened the descriptions of the human cultures from "Barony of Highmount" to "Highmount". This was done mostly for brevity, and if you are describing someone "from Highmount" you will rarely describe them as "from the Barony of Highmount". This is also more consistent with what text is displayed in game. (You see Joe Schmoe, a Human from Highmount").
• Alphebetized the human cultures (including putting Tehir in the appropriate place. Though yes they are not part of the empire, the template really isn't "The Tumuzuuzzian Empire and Tehir", it's "Humans".

Like I said before, I really don't know what to do about the human page to make it consintent with the others. I think that these of course are useful and worth us figuring out and getting right, but it needs to be understood that these templates are only as strong as their generalizability. They need to be brief, useful, and non-redundant, which yes, I still can't figure out how to rationalize with humanity, which if you think about it, should look a lot more like the dwarf template. The problem is that there really are just too many human cultures and cities... Anyway, yeah, that's why I did what I did. Rest assured that it's not me just running around being an ass and putting my stamp on everything or whatever, this really does cause me way more mental anguish and all that trying to figure out how to make it just right. Roll back at your leisure. justin ^talk 11:06, 7 September 2006 (EDT) PS, punch me in the face RE the categories thing. That's the list of templates used, so I was being just totally dumb.

Let me begin by saying, I agreed with the change in title and the addition of the text to the template pages. The human culture lover in me prefers the more lengthy titles, but somethings do need to be shorter. Thats why its peer reviewed, after all, let others with a more objective view make the changes! I see only one thing I will definitely change, which is restore North and South Hendor to their own seperate identities. While both have a shared history, that shared history technically ended about 370 years ago! So no one Hendor to rule them all. As for over all size, these templates can and should serve as sort of the one stop looking point for all things related to the specified race. So I believe the human cities should be added (there's a lot of 'em, but thats what the template is for, after all!) I understand the frustration with the Elf and Dwarf compared to humans, but unfortunately, humans evolved beyond organizing themselves along family or clan units. ;) Rail 23:01, 7 September 2006 (EDT)

Actually, that is not what the navigational templates are for. They are intended as quick, accessible navigation between related articles. The "one stop looking point" you're referring to would be the category. At this time, the only difference between these templates and their related categories is the fact they incorporate both cultures as well as locations. Unfortunately, that is hardly enough to merit their inclusion into every associated page, which will already have a link to it's category. For these templates to be remotely useful, they would need to possess a wider variety of seperately categorized articles, such as links to historical articles in addition to cultures and locations. For instance, if one were to compose the contents of the related articles section of the Dark elf page into a template, that might be worthy. In their current iteration I feel all of the race templates should receive the {{delete}} template so that Oliver can come in and clean up this unnecessary mess. _{who is} Ulthripe ^{reads this} 00:03, 8 September 2006 (EDT)

Some how I missed this last response. Two months late still count? I agree with what you're suggesting on how the templates need to be more comprehensive, and thats certainly the end goal. Yet, just because they don't include everything yet, shouldn't mean they should be deleted. Now that all the races are implemented, anyone can come along and add exactly what you're describing. As is, unfortunately, a lot of that content that would also be required to for the add ons simple doesn't exist. When it comes to geography, history, and culture, KP is still incredibly weak. I'm working on it! Rail 12:21, 13 November 2006 (EST)

I actually feel these templates are pretty much as useful as any other template I've seen created for KP. Easy navigation in common topics related to race is a great idea (and this includes professions and many other broad topics.) Some of the templates might be a bit heavy on obscurity, but I think the kinks will be worked out over time. I might even suggest adding some famous people of the various races, such as the originators of the elven houses, the rulers of the human empire, etc. These templates should highlight key articles relating to the race in question, while the category for that race will include far more minor references.

Oliver ^Talk 18:06, 13 November 2006 (EST)

Human template

I bravely borrowed the wizard template and altered it for the human cultures with the below result. Unless anyone can think of improvements or suggestions, I'll place it on each culture page later tonight. Rail 18:29, 6 September 2006 (EDT)

I admire your bravery, but the poor Tehir look lonely. -Andy ^talk 19:35, 6 September 2006 (EDT)

I'd just ask that you use different colors, since that one I'd bookmarked in my head for the profession templates, but otherwise, cool. <3 templates. justin ^talk 19:44, 6 September 2006 (EDT) PS, use subtle-ish colors (ie, stay away from any color Ulthripe has ever thought about using)

How's this? Note, the Tehir are no longer the anti-social dusty people. Rail 20:42, 6 September 2006 (EDT)

Now that I think of it, I think it'd be more good to have one of those for each race, so that that would be the Human template. And then there would be an Elven, Dark Elven, Sylvankind, etc... So maybe just call it Human? Wait, are those all the human cultures? I don't really know =P, and don't want to go look, but I think they are. But yeah, it should generally be adaptable to all the races, which I think is generally a good idea. Good work. justin ^talk 20:45, 6 September 2006 (EDT) (Color is better, but I'd change the background to a really really light yellow instead of the really really light blue that it is)

I take that back, I kind of like the yellow on light blue. Dunno, pick something you love and run with it. justin ^talk 20:49, 6 September 2006 (EDT)

Works for me! Unless someone beats me to it, I'll work next on the different races. Rail 20:56, 6 September 2006 (EDT)

Completely agree

100 creature categories is absolutely brilliant. -- April

Actually, April, I think that's a terrible idea. Why oh why would I ever want to look up, say Level 43 critters? I think that if I wanted to browse creatures on KP I'd want a level range. So, I'd want, say, level 40-45 creatures. I think that makes a lot more sense. Maybe one of our godlike admins could start making categories for the creatures in level ranges. Then we'd only have 20. Honestly, you're usually pretty good, but having 100 creature levels seems a bit much to me. justin ^talk 16:30, 6 September 2006 (EDT)

I don't know what you've been smoking, but whatever it is, I need it. 100+ level categories is not nearly discrete enough - for example, I would love to have a Category:List of creatures that begin with the letter A, Creatures with four or more legs and arms, and Category:Creatures that carry boxes with a lock difficulty somewhere in the area of 215. Those are everyday resources that are useful for everyone. -- April 16:44, 6 September 2006 (EDT)

You're starting to get a glimpse of my vision. When we're done, there will probably even be such pages as Category:Creatures That Gen Once Every 90 Seconds and Have an AS of 220 and Swing Claidhmores. It'll be hot. justin ^talk 16:47, 6 September 2006 (EDT)

I just hope that one day Ollie will be able to make our dreams come true. -- April 16:51, 6 September 2006 (EDT)

I'm glad you agree. I'm also glad that the plans I have for ranged creature categories meet and even exceed your expectations. I do hope you won't mind when I remove all the level ranges you you painstakingly added to the templates, which are entirely unnecessary for my plans. But thanks for trying to help anyway. - Oliver ^Talk 16:38, 6 September 2006 (EDT)

Since I'm the one who started the mess, I'll offer that the initial reasonsing was that since the creature template used specified levels, I'd use specific level categories. As the Gemstone Bestiary (not the greatest database) uses specific levels, I also figured that this approach was suitable. Both systems, however, can happily exist side by side. I think a next logical category would actually be something like Solhaven Hunting Area. Thus, having an overall grouping of creatures by level and by location. Rail 16:38, 6 September 2006 (EDT)

ZOMG SWOON! Oliver is going to do something so awesome that if he were to leak it, it would ruin the surprise and stock prices would plummet. Also, to protect us from further disaster, he's going to just go back rolling back changes (that many of us had discussed) without comment to protect him from prior art charges when he patents it. Actually, no I think that before going ahead and implementing a sweeping change, all ideas should be posted here for all of us to discuss for at least a week. kthx justin ^talk 16:44, 6 September 2006 (EDT)

Rare Item Lists

What does everyone think about putting up a section listing all of the rare items out there? (Auction, raffle, etc) I've started a page at Rare Items, but would like to know what people think and just how it should look before comitting too much effort into it. Also if we can get something nailed down as to how we should organise it, we could make a good template Septus 18:47, 5 September 2006 (EDT)

Spell Templates, Round 2

I've completed all three potential spell templates at this time. I've also taken the liberty of including a definitions page which explains the terms used in the template and the values which can placed in each of those fields. Eventually, each value should have its own defining page (many already do). Examples can be found on 401 and 415 as with before. I also updated any articles which were already using the templates, so the information displayed wouldn't be interrupted from the change. Some notes and/or discussion topics follow. _{who is} Ulthripe ^{reads this} 07:22, 4 September 2006 (EDT)

• Again, I'm not married to the whole color scheme thing, but I would like to know if this is any more tolerable than previously.
• Andy and I came up with the idea of turning the field names into links, each with their own descriptive articles. Alternately, they could all link to the help page which outlines them already. I'm still on the fence, personally.
• I strongly feel (and others have agreed) that type-specific spell templates are the way to go. The template encapsulates all of the information about each spell that one would wish to reference quickly. I ask that anyone opposed to this change seriously considers the function of them, and the enhanced reference capabilities they offer.

I've got it. You're colorblind. Other than that, I think that yes, having the name fields as links would be great (ie 'Availability' and 'Span' would link to articles (or sections of a page) that describes the options there. Other than that, yes, I like these templates a lot. The colors, though? You must be joking. For colors, I'd use: Defense Magic CCFF99 Utility Magic 99CCFF Offensive Magic FF9999 or Offensive Magic CC6666. Though the defensive and utility ones aren't so readable, I'd not use them for the text in the cell anyway, just the border and/or background. Maybe something like this?

Spell name (###) Defense Magic Mnemonic [{{{mnemonic}}}] Type {{{type}}} Base Duration {{{base_dur}}} Additional Duration {{{add_dur}}} Span {{{span}}} Availability {{{availability}}}

Just my thoughts (ps only made one of the links work, because, you know, i'm lazy. justin ^talk 13:28, 4 September 2006 (EDT)

Remove the colors. The descriptive text in the heading is enough. I'd also pick either Offense/Defense/Utility or Offensive/Defensive/Utility for the headings, not the current mix. Looking over the linked Help page, I noticed the provision of using Special in any field so long as the article provides sufficient explanation. Doesn't this go against your earlier feelings that every option of a spell template should be required? Or is it sufficient that something is typed into the template, just as long as the field is filled? I've included more comments on each template's talk page. - Oliver ^Talk 09:25, 5 September 2006 (EDT)

Colors are useful for a number of reasons. Keep them, just make them not make baby jesus (or moses or whoever) cry. As to Oliver picking on U about, the field labels, [[{{PAGENAME}}#Subsection|Special]] is very very very different from N/A for obvious reasons. justin ^talk 12:27, 5 September 2006 (EDT) (not a bully)

Personally, I like the colors, and I don't see where they'd hurt, except in the cases where it makes things difficult to read (and I do believe the current green text in the Defensive Spell template is, but Justin's alternative is not). They do nothing but help, really, if you ask me, but the whole issue is rather minor, at best. Visually, however, I find the colors more appealing, and that is one of the aspects of an encyclopedia IE, a work of art. Here, I'll dig those up for you guys just to give an idea of what I'm referring to. [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], and [6]. I realize we're not, exactly, an encyclopedia, but I believe that these values and views remain true, even to our application. Though, the mechanics should be as accurate as possible, in the more specific articles. Anyway! That's my $0.02. -Andy ^talk 19:05, 5 September 2006 (EDT)